| Post # | Source | Dates | Author | Post | |||||||||||
| #1 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.4.1 | ◊ Malan |
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
This thread will soon be closed. All the information has been moved to the Theorycraft Think Tank at Shaman: Enhancement. Please update your links and note that the wiki is not to be used for questions/discussion. Post only corrections or change requests there. Discussion and questions ("guys should I use double syphon???") should go in a relevant thread here in the forums. Further discussion of Enhancement topics should start in new threads (ie, a thread about gear, a thread about windfury mechanics, etc etc). Last edited by Malan : 04/10/08 at 11:16 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Pater |
Bravo!
I think Lootzor and Pawn work the same way: you give each stat a "weight" value; large weight means the stat is more important. I'm more comfortable working with small numbers than with the 100s, but as long a the ratios are the same, I think you're good. For someone at the Kara/Gruul/Mag level (2200 AP, 25% Crit, 22% Hit), I believe Tornhoof and I agree that the lootzor values are: Str = 1.1 Agi = 1.0 AP = 0.5 CR = 1.0 HR = 0.7 In fact, here's a link to that search in Lootzor: http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5 Disquette's values were a little different, mainly because used a broader range of stats and averaged across them all. As a matter of style/utility, I'd think you'd put these at the top of your post rather than at the bottom, but that's a pretty minor comment. I'm not sure where it is, but you might want to add a sentence or two showing why INT and MP5 are wasted on our gear--the weakness of our DPM, basically. | |||||||||||
| #3 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Aett |
Very good post.
I would add the GM/HW one-handers in the list of available blue offhands. I use the axe currently because heroic bosses despise dropping weapons for me. (Got exalted with CE trying to get an offhand..) | |||||||||||
| #4 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Rob |
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Good post. | |||||||||||
| #5 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | The Dood |
Thank the maker!
I was getting headache's trying to de-crypt the Itemization thread ![]() | |||||||||||
| #6 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Ghando |
Might be worthwhile to dispel some common misconceptions and set in stone a couple things, such as:
--Windfury Weapon suffers neither from the OH 50% penalty for OH procs, nor the dual-wield 24% miss rate. This means that (assuming identical weapons), MH and OH procs are identical. --Haste Rating is not bad for Enhance Shamans. There was some comically faulty theorycrafting on Blizzard's Shaman forums a while back claiming that Haste Rating actually lowered DPS. This is not the case. At all. Haste Rating will increase DPS substantially, as for any melee class with a high % of damage being white. However, Haste Rating suffers from diminishing returns as it increases and pushes WF procs closer together. | |||||||||||
| #7 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Gwaihir |
Some links to the only non-arena offhands until you hit Al'ar:
Bloodskull Destroyer http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28210 Boggspine Knuckles http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27747 and The Harvester of Souls http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27872 | |||||||||||
| #8 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
Oops on the Potency value. That was me copying from someone else's post.
Updating with some of this stuff now. | |||||||||||
| #9 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
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Haste was mentioned already as well. Edit - Can someone provide the data on Gems (8 Str and the 4Str/4Crit ones) and the meta gems of choice? | |||||||||||
| #10 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Phro |
This may sound stupid but I thought I'd ask anyway; but ever since the WF-3second-cooldown nerf, has anyone tried not applying WF to their off-hand and using the WF totem to apply the WF to the off-hand? I know its less WF dmg, but maybe it out-weighs the internal cooldown of applying an off-hand self-WF?
If you cant even do this kindly disregard my post, I havent been enhance in awhile. | |||||||||||
| #11 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
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.... and so it shall go into the post. No, do not use WF totem instead of WF Weapon. Its not nearly the same thing. | |||||||||||
| #12 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Phro |
Haha, thanks! I haven't been reading the shammy-enh posts since I went resto at 70 and then ele eventually. Very good post none-the-less.
Btw im a retard...I thought WF totem buffed both weapons...stupid question! Having said that, if it was possible to self-imbued WF and totem OH WF, maybe it would be better...but who knows. Thanks again! | |||||||||||
| #13 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Sebudai |
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| #14 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Pater |
Yeah, that's right. "Equivalences" are just inverted "weights." For equivalencies, you're just saying "I would be equally happy getting 1 CR or 1.43 HR." For weights, you're saying "HR is 0.7 times as good as [1.0] CR."
I really like the "weight" system myself, because it allows for quick input into lootzor, and it also conforms to the AEP paradigm. You can think of those weights as AEP for us (since Agi is 1.0 as well) or CritEP if you prefer. (Technically, AGI is 0.97 = 22.1*1.1/25, but I think 1.0 is close enough for simplicity's sake.) I believe pawn uses the same approach, to give each item a "value" in the tooltip. | |||||||||||
| #15 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Tenu |
I've got exported pawn strings for Pater and Disquette's values:
( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Disq)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=1.51, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=1.47, HitRating=1.08, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 ) ( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 ) So you can use the /pawn import command and paste those in. I scaled both to use a baseline of 1AP, and assumed 8str gems in sockets, and 24AP gem in metasocket. | |||||||||||
| #16 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Pater |
That's pretty cool.
I have also added a link to Lootzor's top 10 results for every slot in my sig. | |||||||||||
| #17 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Sebudai |
Yeah I wanted to make sure, because it seems some of Lootzor's items are out of date with the 2.1 changes and I was working on a list for myself. Now we need to figure out weighting and value for haste rating.
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| #18 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Pater |
I can (or a helpful helper can) put haste rating into my sim pretty easily. I don't have any procs yet, but I should make the top ones (mongoose and that haste hammer at least) a priority.
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| #19 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | panny |
Totem of the Astral Winds isn't exactly farmable, you can't reset heroic instances. It does take 15 minutes from zone in to the first boss though, should be worth doing it anytime you're doing any other Heroic in Auchindoun.
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| #20 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | panny |
We should also include int/mp5 in our weightings (perhaps in two minute chunks). Although alot of leather is quite rated quite highly in the lootzor link, I think my back of the envelope calculations showed that we shouldn't neglect Int/mp5 completely: http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...postcount=1026 http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...postcount=1039
It may be that, at higher levels of gear, the percentage of damage that consists of Shocks will be so low that it's more worthwhile to just gear without thought to mana and reduce the number of shocks. But, at my level, with 0 spell damage, shocks are still a significant portion of my damage (~156 dps with debuffs). Since I am at the point where it is possible to run OOM during a full burn cycle, there must exist some equivalence between extra mana vs extra melee stats. AP and +hit has the advantage of doing double duty of increasing melee damage while boosting mana gains, but relying on SR completely is also not always optimal. Timing SR with a trinket maximises mana gain, but you have to time it when you can be certain you won't waste SR procs. However, in many encounters, there exist damage windows where it's optimal to save your trinket for. These two scenarios don't always occur at the same time. With a full burn DPS cycle being estimated at least ~13k mana per two minutes, we need to consider the question: What is the optimal ratio of intellect and mp5 to melee stats? This will be a multivariable function which several critical points exist. Some things to consider: -Does there exist any itemization points where the additional melee damage outweighs being able to shock every cooldown? -If there is not, what is the minimum mana pool, mp5 and mana from SR required to sustain a full burn cycle. | |||||||||||
| #21 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Azaranth |
Panny: I guess your mileage may vary. Some shaman have mana issues, others never do. It all depends on your gear, your raid composition, and the encounter.
It's impossible to have a realistic "dps weight" for mp5, int or stamina, because there is no direct connection between them and the other dps stats. At best, you should establish the amount of mana used in a 2 minute burn cycle, and develop a formula to express how much minimum mana a shaman would need, based on his AP (since AP directly feeds your mana regen with SR). mp5 is going to always, always, always be an inferior stat to Int for a decently geared shaman, since that shaman will be regenerating more mana with SR than he has room for in his small mana pool, and Int is a much cheaper itemization stat. Furthermore, a 'full burn cycle' of mana consumption is nearly always constant, so there's not a lot of variables involved. Just determine the formula needed for complete sustainability based on buffed AP and weapon speed. Personally, I raid with a Ret pally. <3 JoW ![]() | |||||||||||
| #22 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Zurgat |
Curious, i wonder how big the difference is between the WF weapon enchant, and the WF totem (both talented).
Last edited by Zurgat : 01/04/08 at 11:13 AM. | |||||||||||
| #23 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Illundai |
The biggest difference is that Windfury Weapon is 2 attacks. The totem is only 1.
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| #24 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | dwayna |
so if i read this correclty . axe of the deepwoods with the flurry axe fails for lvling and i should get a slower weapon instead of the flurry 1 . im lvl 52 btw
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| #25 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
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| #26 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Tornhoof |
As for further models you can add my EquipOptimizer, which includes my Enh model.
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/ The other shaman models are just fine, they should give you correct results. The holy priest model is fine too, the shadow model is not finished The protection tank model is not completely finished, but the results should be ok. Rogue isn't even started. It has some certain problems with selecting the right gems and it has some problems if you actually lock too many item slots, you should always leave like 2-3 open, otherwise it might as well crash. | |||||||||||
| #27 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Pater |
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.
My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7). Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine. 1 INT = 15 mana. Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.) So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps. (I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.) Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41. These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT. | |||||||||||
| #28 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Oprahwinfury |
Nice Pater but don't forget to add the miniscule spell crit rating that a point of Int gives as well
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| #29 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Illundai | ||||||||||||
| #30 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Rob |
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What's the maximum mana pool required for 2 minutes of SS, ES/FS, and totems between Shamanistic Rage (plus mana pot) cooldowns? I think someone has done this work before, but it's easier for me to duplicate it than to search for it. SS x 120/10 = 236*12 = 2832 SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = 864 (note this is with Totemic Focus, adjust upwards by 25% if this doesn't apply to you... now that I explicitly see that this talent is only worth 288 mana/120 sec = 12mp5, I might get rid of it) Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720 ES x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 535*9 = 4815 FS x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 500*9 = 4500 Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238 2832 + 864 - 720 + 4815 + 4500 - 238 = 12053 We can then safely say that any INT which raises our buffed mana pool above 12053 is going to be useless, if we can get a refill off of SR + mana pot. If one waited until their mana pool were depleted by the amount of a Super Mana Pot at the start of a fight, chugged one, and then continued chugging each time the CD was up, you would get a larger "effective" mana pool without any more INT. A Super Mana is at least 1800 and averages 2400 mana, so if you accept the average, you don't need INT which raises the buffed mana pool above 9653. (Do pots still crit?) Can we expect to fill that up with Shamanistic Rage? Obviously, this is going to vary a lot with gear; and as most shamans know, it also depends on the fight (whether or not you can get a nice solid 30 seconds of attacking the ass end of a boss mob without having to move). We know that you get 15% of your AP back per proc. Do we have hard data on whether this is PPM or percentage-based? | |||||||||||
| #31 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Ilmatar |
I was under the impression that SR was PPM based, obviously no-cooldown.
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| #32 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Unaz |
SS x 120/10 = 226*12 = 2712
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 288 + 312 + 115 + 196*2 = 1107 Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720 ES x 120/6/2, 5 seconds + 1 sec for gcd = 460*10 = 4600 FS x 120/6/2, 5 seconds + 1 sec for gcd = 430*10 = 4300 Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -237 2712 + 1107 - 720 + 4600 + 4300 - 237 = 11762 With 2 extra shocks and the 5% extra damage adding up to a third extra shock in damage. With one out of the 20 proccing Elemental devastation for +9% crit as well on average. With an Enhance/Ele spec of http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000 So it's a savings of only about 300 mana with 3 extra shocks of damage, and a solid chance at proccing +9% crit every two minutes. SR in my experience seemed to be PPM, as with a two hander it was proccing almost every swing fairly reliably. However dual wield seems to be PPM per hand, so you end up with almost the same effect at about twice the rate. The description is also fairly typical of a PPM description on the tooltip. Also keep in mind that once your attack power reaches a certain breakpoint the time frame changes. You'll be filling your mana pool and able to refresh all your totems inside the window of SR, and even get free shocks off as well. With SR lasting 30 seconds and enough attack power, you can almost guarantee yourself full mana at the end of 30 seconds. With a full totem refresh. So a full totem refresh is about 8 seconds with GCD I believe. Which leaves 22 seconds for other spells. Which is 3 shocks untalented, or 4 talented. If we assume the enh/resto build and full mana at the end of SR we have: SS x 90/10 = 236*9 = 2124 SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = FREE (SHould be able to drop and recover during SR uptime) Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720 (will be up during SR) ES x 90/7/2 = 535*6 = 3210 (there's rounding here, but rounding down due to not being able to land a partial shock) FS x 90/7/2 = 500*6 = 3000 Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238 (Should probably not count as it will happen during SR?) 2124 - 720 + 3210 + 3000 - 237 = 7377 With Enh/Ele: SS x 90/10 = 226*9 = 2034 SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 288 + 312 + 115 + 196*2 = FREE Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720 ES x 90/6/2 = 460*7.5 = 3450 (15 shocks, so one needs to be 8, averaging as it can go either way) FS x 90/6/2 = 430*7.5 = 3225 Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -237 2034 - 720 + 3450 + 3225 - 237 = 7752 (with 3 more shocks and 75% of the damage of another shock) NOTE that these are only if you are able to maintain a shock rotation and re-drop all totems during SR, ending at full mana. If you are able to proc 400 mana/second, you can get 12000. 500 mana every two seconds (which is more reasonable at higher ends of gear) is 7500 mana during SR. The closer you can get to the end of SR with full mana without interrupting your shock/SS rotation, the closer to efficient you get. Right now I only ever seem to need the cheap combat mana pots to keep shocks going. Although I'm usually aggro capped before that, or have trouble keeping on the mob for the full duration. Quick Conclusion I have some overlap and rounding issues here, and will assume that hardly everyone keeps up a perfect dps rotation on every cooldown, or gets 100% uptime. These numbers are pointing at about 7400-7800 under optimum conditions and a certain level of AP. I'd say 8500 is probably the ideal amount of mana to allow for breathing room WITHOUT relying on pots. If you have pots you either can get more breathing room or a lower mana pool. Or save the cooldowns for non-mana pots. I also hardly ever find myself using totemic call unless I'm moving away from my old totems, as I'd rather refresh them one at a time and not take the buffs off my group for sake of my mana efficiency. There's also water shield to consider, which procs off of many more conditions then Lightning Shield, so I usually keep it up all the time. Last edited by Unaz : 06/20/07 at 5:04 PM. | |||||||||||
| #33 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | panny |
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I suppose creating a ratio isn't as useful as other stats, as after your mana pool is a certain size compared to your gains from SR, it stops contributing to your DPS. The fact that the question "how much int do I need" will vary for different encounters, your stats, and raid composition. With no gear changes, on one week of Gruul, I gained 3-4k mana per Shamanistic Rage. This week, with a Survival Hunter and two Warriors in my group (meaning I get Battle Shout for the entire fight rather than just the first half), I gained 7.5k mana. ![]()
Also, don't forget that Bloodlust is 750 mana. Obviously, you don't cast it ever 2 minutes, it needs to be considered. ![]()
All this theorycraft is irritating though. Surely with all the high-end raiders we have posting here, some would have a heavy leather gear setups they can post experience about using? Last edited by panny : 06/20/07 at 10:44 PM. | |||||||||||
| #34 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Azaranth |
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I never go out of mana in raids. I spam stormstrike every cast, and shock every single opportunity when threat isn't a concern. During unleashed rage, I mana dump every chance that I can, even using Fire Nova Totem / Searing Totem rotations =X. Mana is just not an issue unless my unleashed rage is interrupted somehow. (Void Reaver is annoying for this reason. I usually save my healthstones for Unleashed Rage, and just eat a few ground poundings). We frequently have JoW up however. | |||||||||||
| #35 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Pater |
Well, I'm nearly 100% kara leather and have been avoiding anything with mana for a while. The only time I have mana problems is when I forget to use SR.
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| #36 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | panny |
All accounts of JoW make me rather jealous.
Pater, is that with a full shock rotation? | |||||||||||
| #37 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Rob |
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)
Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night) but I am threat-capped from just autoattacking + SS, so mana's not a concern there. (It might be if I had two piece Tier 5, as I would definitely take advantage of the instant-cast LHW on that fight. Even though it would increase my threat, I sometimes have to run out for pounding and/or pop a healthstone when I'm getting scared that I won't get healed.) I think if our 4th tank were better, I would not be quite so threat-capped, he really can't keep up with the first 3. | |||||||||||
| #38 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Pater |
Panny -- occasionally I have mana problems when pushing shocks to the max. Most of the time the problems are SR-related, though: either forgetting to use it, or having some of it wasted because of shatter and the like.
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| #39 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
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| #40 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | drats |
Maybe there should be a few lines in the OP about which pally buffs are best for enhancement. In an ideal world, you'd get all four (kings, might, wisdom, salvation), but in reality we usually only run with three paladins. I tend to prefer kings, might, salve as my combination, due to the fact that kings and might mean I gain a healthy amount of mana back from each SR proc.
These are the pros and cons of each based on my experiences: Kings - Increases all stats by 10%. Pros: Good in almost every situation. Cons: Causes a decent increase in threat generation due to harder hits and more shocks. Might - Increases AP by 220. Pros: More AP means stronger attacks, more SR mana returns. Cons: Threat generation when combined with kings. Paladins have to buff this separately and refresh during battle. Wisdom - Returns 42 mp5. Pros: Best blessing for mana regen, shines on long fights. Cons: Not always necessary with proper use of SR. Salvation - Decrease threat generated by 30% Pros: Best blessing for threat problems, allows 30% more dps. Cons: Useless blessing when not threat capped. In general, the other shaman always want kings, wisdom and salvation. I usually have to coordinate with the wisdom pally to get the five minute version of might and have it refreshed during battle. I placed that under con because if the pally is dead or healing then you're out of a buff after the first five minutes. It's also worth noting (perhaps under might?) that on nights where we have a fury warrior in the dps group I tend to need salvation more, due to battleshout. | |||||||||||
| #41 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | drats |
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I've noticed a lot of fights where good totem placement can make mana management much easier, like Mag and Hydross. Just make sure your group knows where you're placing the totems so they can stay near them. | |||||||||||
| #42 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Khrashz |
meta choices
One thing that seems conspicuously absent from the collected theorycraft is metagem choices.
EDIT: appears that relentless earthstorm is the best choice, after reading one of the source threads. Still -- would be an appropriate addition to this excellent summary. Last edited by Khrashz : 06/21/07 at 2:42 PM. | |||||||||||
| #43 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Negative |
99% sure the math was done in the itemization thread proving 3% is better. It's nicer now that it also procs on yellow damage instead of just white.
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| #44 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Khrashz |
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In other news, my other white whale, Skulker's Greaves, was harpooned, brought to port, and made into exceedingly expensive perfumes in the deep hours of the night yesterday. PS: A guildmate (and member of these forums) has been trying to talk me out of socketing those pants with 3 rigid dawnstones. He's been reading these forums closely and is insisting I go for triple +8 str. Here's my armory, with me wearing them in all their unsocketed/unpatched glory: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...oroth&n=Khrash Once I patch them later today, I'll be starting with a baseline of 1498 ap and 203 hit unbuffed. (If I push cap, I can change out edgewalker to rapscallion, and/or pick up a pendant of the perilous to replace worgen claw). Advice on which 3 gems to stuff in them? | |||||||||||
| #45 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Pater |
Grats!
I'd agree with your friend. I give STR a 1.1 weight and HR only 0.7. Right now, I have 4cr/6sta in mine for the yellow slot, but that's because I just haven't gotten around to changing it since settling on the stat weights. According to a few sims and other approaches, HR just isn't that hot above some level. You don't even need to be that close to the cap (25.5) before it starts giving diminishing returns. (As far as why this might be, I would guess it's because SS and WF only have 5% base miss rate.) | |||||||||||
| #46 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Rob |
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Your friend is right. Go triple +8 str, or if for some perverse reason you want the +dodge rating bonus, use one of the purple +4 str/+6 sta gems. | |||||||||||
| #47 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Jendryn |
Rob, once you've had a pally judge wisdom in a fight like Magtheridon where you're essentially standing there the entire fight (minus any backup clicking duties you may have), you won't want to ever go back. In the case of Mag, JoW restores just about the same amount of mana SR does when using SR every cooldown (SR restores about 410 mana on proc untrinketed in raids).
In any event, I too have harbored the fear of losing too much Int due to wearing leather but the more my Int goes down, I can see that it truly has a very small effect. Now I just need this link handy when I bid on rogue gear. ![]() | |||||||||||
| #48 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Jeht |
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| #49 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Nite_Moogle |
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| #50 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
drats - Good idea on the totem placement, don't know why I didn't think of that.
Krashz and Negative - I went through the itemization thread like 3 times and somehow keep missing the couple of posts that debated meta gems, if someone can summarize it up for me to put in the OP or link it, I'd be obliged. Quite busy at work right now. | |||||||||||
| #51 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | drats |
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The Change to Windfury and You! (does not apply to warriors) The general idea is that the WF bonus isn't halved but the damage still is. Everytime your OH procs it's keeping your MH from proccing for 3 seconds. | |||||||||||
| #52 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Jeht |
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IE- mainhand attack WF damage would be: x+WF AP, offhand attack WF damage would be: x*.6 (or whatever the penalty is)+WF AP? edit: OK I think I got it thank you. | |||||||||||
| #53 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Nite_Moogle | ||||||||||||
| #54 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | mek |
Yeah. The original post is a little unclear on this, and it also has the consequence of CR being EQUAL to AP, after considering the item budget. Perhaps some clarification should indicate that AP and CR are equally good (approximately) due to their different itemization costs. It also means that Strength is superior to both, after considering Kings.
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| #55 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Azaranth |
Is the goal of this thread for discussion, or only reference of 'confirmed' theroycraft? (The following seems out of place in the itemization thread.)
So, does anyone else juggle WF totem and AGI, trying to keep both up? I've got a hotkey for it (tied to stormstrike, to help time the WF Totem buff), but I really only use it in the "go nuts" portion of a fight - usually the low hp enrage portion where I'm trying to mana dump any way that I can. For the record, my macro is: /castsequence reset=6 Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem; It's bound to a more obscure place on my keyboard, due to it's infrequent use. It's pretty fun, although it really means you spend pretty much the entire fight in the global cooldown. I usually mix Fire Nova Totem in there too, since it's about the best mana dump I have. | |||||||||||
| #56 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
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| #57 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Azaranth |
Yar. I think that's why I tend to use it in the "Oh God, Leotheras is going to enrage in 20 seconds!" sort of situations
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| #58 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Negative |
This post is a decent summary of metas and boot enchants. I tried finding the math as well that I thought was there but couldn't find it.
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...postcount=1212 Basically the haste gem has the internal cooldown that makes it pretty terrible, while the change to Relentless making it affect yellow damage makes it by far the better choice. | |||||||||||
| #59 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Morelis |
There's something that has been bugging me for a while. I always see people posting that you need a certain amount of hit rating to be effective, usually you see numbers around 20% or 200 hit rating. Or you see people concerned that they can't afford to lose hit rating. Is there really any truth to this though? I've been finding when using tools like pawn and lootzor that items lacking +hit often score very high. Since AEP ratings are designed to give a genuine value to items, are these ratings somehow broken? Or are players just clinging to the notion that hit is required out of habit?
My curiosity on this subject has led me to make myself a bit of a guinea pig. I've been taking items based solely on AEP style ratings for the last month or so, my hit rating has plummeted from around 220 to 111. My damage however feels like it's improved though I haven't been logging much data so I can't say with any certainty. When Pater posted his sim one thing I checked right off was whether the relative value of hit rating changed depending on how much you had. I put in regular raid buffed values and lowered the +hit from gear to 0%, then I increased it by 5% and ran it again. I then did the same change again, going from 11% to 16%. The results came out as such: 0% -> 5% (9% -> 14%) 847.5 -> 875.8 = 28.3 DPS gained 11% -> 16% (20% -> 25%) 910.4 -> 940 = 29.6 DPS gained Is there anything I'm missing? I'm trying find anything other than anecdotal evidence that a certain amount of hit rating is more beneficial than an equal amount of item budget spent on AP or crit stats. Certainly due to the non-linear cost you want items that have a balance of all DPS stats, but many pieces just aren't itemized that way. Should I be passing over items that score higher overall for ones that though scoring lower have a more even stat distribution? | |||||||||||
| #60 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Nite_Moogle |
Having high amounts of hit rating has the somewhat intangible benefit of guaranteeing lots of hits when you use SR, in addition to avoiding a situation where you are crit capped (not really a problem since 2.1). The magic number formula is purely in terms of DPS.
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| #61 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Unaz |
The rule of thumb I've been using recently (now that I'm actually starting to have a moderate amount of socketed gear available to me) is any piece where the bonus is useful to me from a dps standpoint (typically AP/or +hit bonuses) and I can reach the bonus using purely +hit/str/ap gems, I'll match colors.
Everything else +8 str. That being said I was finding myself lacking due to getting pieces of dps gear with no +hit and trying to stay above certain minimums, so threw in a little extra +hit. Regarding the whole paladin thing, we've had bad luck keeping active raiding paladins (horde guild). After having 4 people reroll as pallys with BC, 3 of them stopped playing due to one reason or another, and we're only now back up to 3 pallys. Typically running with one, 2 if we're lucky. So I usually end up asking for might and getting the opportunity for kings maybe 20% of the time. ![]() | |||||||||||
| #62 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Morelis |
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Lets assume 2200 AP and take 100 hit rating and exchange it for 100 str. We would lose 6.33% hit and I guess 6.33% SR procs? Our overall mana gain would go down by 6.33% as well if I'm correct. With kings and UR that 100 str would gain us 242 AP? Which would gain us an additional 36.3 mana per SR proc pushing them from 330 to 366.3 an 11% gain. So you'd get 6.33 percent fewer procs bu tthe procs would return 11% more mana, assuming no errors in my math which is a pretty big assumption. Either way it should be a small change. You're correct as well that with the greatly reduced glancing rate the crit cap even without as much +hit is still quite high. | |||||||||||
| #63 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Disquette |
if you lose 6.33% hit, you loose (white swings / total swings) SR procs.
Assume you have 10 white swings in 10 seconds (2.6 weapons, perma-hasted). You would also have 2 stormstrike swings, and probably 4 windfury swings that are unaffected by your drop in hit (since they're maxed out by your talents hit-wise). So, instead of losing 100% * 6.33% = 6.33% SR loss, you actually have 10/16 = 62.5% * 6.33% = 4.0% fewer SR procs. | |||||||||||
| #64 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Ulix |
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Edit: A different subject. We usually have a GoA-dps group, it consists of a druid, enhancement shammy (me!), rogue, hunter and a warrior. I'd like to see some number-crunching on dps output of such a group with GoA or WF, I'd think GoA wins in such a group. Also, in the OP's analysis of WF and Agi totem, the dps increase of the shaman itself with GoA isnt added, it should be! :p Last edited by Ulix : 06/22/07 at 8:29 AM. | |||||||||||
| #65 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Aeolian |
The bonus damage that the dps warrior in your group puts out using Windfury is much higher then the rest of the group combined using GoA. At least in my experience.
This was posted at the bottom of Compilation: On why Windfury Totem is almost always the best totem to drop for any group that has a warrior DPSing in it, or pretty much any group that is not just hunters and druids: http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=40 A Fury warrior will gain 200-300 DPS from WFT, eclipsing any gains that other group, in total, would gain from GoA being dropped instead. A Mortal Strike warrior will gain even more from the totem due to 2H mechanics. | |||||||||||
| #66 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
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| #67 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
The numbers are linked in my post. Why are people still coming and saying "I think GoA might be better...." when you can just try it out for yourself? Go do Magtheridon, use WF this week and GoA the next with the same setup. This isn't difficult to test.
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| #68 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Nite_Moogle |
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| #69 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Disquette |
I'd like to interject at this time that we have quite a few theories going on here, and I'm not sure how much they've actually been tested. This worries me.
If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't know about the Windfury offhand bonus being exactly what it is. (minor deviation from theory) If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't have discovered the 36% chance to WF when dual wielding . (major deviation from theory) If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't know that we're getting more flurried attacks than we should. (major deviation from theory) Even blasted lands tests are fine for testing these out, but until they are tested, I'm not very comfortable with treating the results from any of this as being worth much. For blasted lands tests, back into your numbers - run recap and find out what your actual crit rate and hit rate are, then plug those into your sim or formula. Find out how many auto-attack swings you had, compare it to what your model suggests. Find out how many windfury procs you had, compare that to the model. You wont have any dodge/block/parry/glancing, but the models and formulas need to be able to account for this situation as well, so you might as well start on the scenario that's easiest to test. I'm not saying that any of the formulas or stat valuations are wrong, I'm saying that we currently don't seem to be confirming that they're right. | |||||||||||
| #70 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Ulix |
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I understand perfectly well that the warrior's dps is WAY higher with WF, thats obvious. However, if the warrior uses stones on his weapons + GoA, the rogues uses poisons + GoA, and the other 3 dps get the benefits from GoA aswell... ah well, ill test it next Karathress, no holding back on that fight anyway. Sorry for asking ![]() | |||||||||||
| #71 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
Do you not have a 2nd rogue? Only 1 in the entire raid? You'd get much more benefit from dropping the hunter out of that group and replacing him with a rogue. The DPS gain from giving Battle Shout to rogues is tremendous. And then get rid of the GoA and give the warrior and 2 rogues WF and you'll see far more DPS gains. And no, Stones + Poisons + GoA are not better than WF.
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| #72 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | • Nite_Moogle |
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Having a hunter in the group for the BM bonus is not nearly worth the opportunity cost of having an additional melee gain the benefits of WFT. This is one of the most common mistakes that people make in organizing groups. Ferocious Inspiration is a flat 3% bonus to any sort of damage and it makes Hunters useful in any damage-dealing group, whereas the difference between GoA and WF for warriors and rogues is tremendous by the time you are in SSC. If you have a hunter in a mage group FI is roughly as effective as it is to a melee group, but that hunter will get far less benefit from shaman totems than a melee class would. If you have a rogue in the mage group when the hunter is in your group, you are crippling that rogue's DPS (no totems, no battle shout) and the hunter is not providing any real additional benefit (not affected by battle shout, WF does nothing, only receives half benefit from GoA/SoE). If you can provide WFT to four other melee classes you should absolutely be doing it, because nothing else will provide them with as big of a benefit as what you will. Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 06/22/07 at 11:50 AM. | |||||||||||
| #73 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Ulix |
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WF has a 3 second cooldown. Once it procs, it wont proc again in the next 3 seconds. With weapons of 2.6 speed, without flurry or anything, this means that WF *can* proc every other swing. So, WF, normal swing, WF, is possible. Now, what happens when flurry + haste-rating items make you swing faster than 1.5 seconds, lets say 1.49. To have a chance to proc WF after a WF you would need 2 swings instead of only 1. So in theory, when you get haste-rating items that make you swing faster than 1.5 seconds your WF proc rate *will* go down. Yes, your white damage will increase, but your WF dmg over time will go down. Your overal dps will be lower with 1.49 swing speed than with 1.5 swing speed. The next question would be, how is the overal dps output when the swingspeed becomes 1.4, or 1.3, or even lower, it will be better than 1.49 thats for sure, but at what point will it be better than 1,5 speed. The thread I linked discusses just that. Note, this theory is about swing speed, NOT weapon speed. SLOW/SLOW is always the way to go when it comes to weapon speed. But, if you feel that the original poster has no idea what he is talking about, please explain to me why that is the case. This thread was made by Aj and Snorkle, which are both well known on the european shaman boards for their theorycrafting. I have always really apreciated these forums as a source of information, and tbh I'd expected a better response than "he just doesnt have a clue" ![]() Last edited by Ulix : 06/22/07 at 12:33 PM. | |||||||||||
| #74 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Ulix |
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Anyway, lets drop this! Gimme your opinions on the haste-rating/swingspeed matter! | |||||||||||
| #75 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Nite_Moogle |
The haste-lowers-your-DPS discussion was hashed out some time ago; there are certain hastes that will lower your overall DPS, but they are pretty difficult to come by in actual practice. Mongoose is probably the main culprit of this but it only occurs at certain very uncommon weapon speeds (1.5 or 3.0, etc). It's pretty hard for any item that generates at least 5% haste to lower your DPS.
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| #176 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | TradewindKlaatubarada |
Hey!
As an enhancement shaman, I have problems often with my task being recognized (as a buffer). So I have a petition tho whoever knows how to code, that would greatly help our spec. Make an addon that calculates the DPS given to party by our buffs. This can be somewhat complicated, but at least some parts are easy. By selecting Skill Details in swstats, you can get how many Windfury damage a player did. So, it should be easy to extract those numbers and summarize them up in a separate addon. I'm finding that rogues do an average 7% damage from my Windfury Totem, and warriors go up to 15%. Now, this part was easy. How to calculate STR totem (or AGI if it's down instead of Windfury) and Unleashed Rage? I'm sure the mats are not easy for certain classes considering instants and procs, but if Recap and SWStats can get so much accurate info about that data, it should not be hard for someone with enough knowledge on scripting and game mechanics to code something easy that can report at the end of the fight something like: Tradewind's own damage: 340932. WF given to party: +89023. +STR given to party: +14932. UR given to party: +40834. Total damage added to the raid: 485721. | |||||||||||
| #177 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Vykromond |
The problem with such an approach is that every other class will want to be recognized for its own "non-personal DPS contribution" and some are much more easy to quantify than others.
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| #178 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Kissmyaxe |
Also keep in mind that an enhancement shaman is compared to a restoration shaman when boosting the melee group.
Your contribution is 13 extra strength for SoE totem, 133 AP for WF totem and 10% AP (we could average this to 200 AP I guess although it is scalable) from UR. | |||||||||||
| #179 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | berg |
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If you take one of the many generic melee dps powerhouse groups for example... feral, dps war, rogue, rogue, <some shaman> A resto shaman can still provide great buffs to this group similar to an enhancement shaman. However the resto shamans totems and the other members group buffs (Battle shout, lotp) will be entirely wasted on the resto shaman. The enhancement shaman drops marginally superior totems but also takes advantage of his totems and the other melee buffs. Also Unleashed rage is a 300 AP buff in a raid setting which is certainly significant since it is almost always up. With these factors altogether, there is a very significant gap in the raid strength of a melee group with an enh shaman and one with a resto shaman. | |||||||||||
| #180 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
You really don't need an addon to calculate this you can do it ahead of time with a piece of paper and a calculator.
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| #181 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | TradewindKlaatubarada |
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Are you retard? I was speaking about something fight-specific, not some dumb and generalistic %'s everyone knows already. | |||||||||||
| #182 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan | ||||||||||||
| #183 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Shinok |
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After seeing how high your DPS is on the WWS logs, I'm definitely interested in a high AP / high crit build, and lowering my hit substantially to that end. Any additional advice on your gearing philosophy is welcome. Would you prefer 1600 AP / 28% crit or 1800 AP / 24% crit? | |||||||||||
| #184 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Tenu |
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Whether you top some sort of "contribution" meter is pretty irrelevant, especially with all the synergistic effects that go on in a group/raid (ie how much of your UR uptime was from the crit buff you got from a feral druid etc etc). | |||||||||||
| #185 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Expigator |
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I think being a rogue before may have had something to do with my +hit lust. | |||||||||||
| #186 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Unaz |
I've been running with an Enhance/Elemental build for a while now, and find it to be fairly effective overall. The 5 second cooldown on shocks especially (helpful on damage and fights where I have to help interrupt), and elemental devastation procs often enough to make the talents worthwhile - kicking my crit up to over 40% quite easily.
My main selling point for it is the ability to maintain a full shock rotation much without having to go to pots (beyond the occasionaly combat pot), on a faster cooldown, and for more damage. The resto options are good, but you seem to have to put so many points in for that 3%. The totem range increase does help, but is usually not overly necessary with careful positioning. | |||||||||||
| #187 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Rob |
I'm also trying to go for AP and crit over hit, based on Disquette and Pater's simulation results; my gear's not as good as Sebudai's though. One thing that's not indicated by just a cursory glance at his character sheet is the haste rating he's got on his gear; note that his 2.60 speed weapon is dropped to 2.53 without Flurry. If the calculations thus far in the thread are correct, Haste should be very powerful.
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| #188 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Morelis |
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| #189 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | • Sebudai |
Well, based on numbers found in this thread 1 CR = 2 AP. 4% crit is 88.4 CR so it would only take 176.8 AP to equal the benefit of 4% crit. Thus 200 AP is probably slightly better than 4% crit.
A few months ago I did some math based on my own WWS parses to assign a weighting to each stat. This is when I first discovered that +hit was overvalued, and that crit and attack power are normally a better use of item budget for us. The weightings I came up with a few months ago are very close to what you will find in this thread, and since these guys are probably better at math than I am, I just use theirs. 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP. Decide how much you value stamina in comparison to those three stats and it will be very easy for you to figure out which items are upgrades for you. Honestly it's best to not think in terms of stacking one stat. All three of these stats are good for us, and they all depend on eachother. You want all three of them, and what is important is the quantities involved. Yes, one of them might be the 'superior' use of item budget, but it's not like we get to design our own items. We have to use what Blizzard gives us. My hit rating isn't intentionally low because I think +hit sucks, that's just how it worked out for me by following the above stat weightings. The randomness of drops had an impact aswell because I don't hold out for the statistically best upgrade. If an item is an upgrade, I'm sending on it, regardless of if there is a bigger upgrade out there. Anyway, yeah we switch our Bloodlusts around like that a lot. Basically whoever benefits the most from it on any given encounter is going to get most, if not all of the Bloodlusts. Also, I've picked up quite a few upgrades very recently(bracer, ring, cloak and breastplate off the top of my head), so the gear in my armory profile is better than what I was using for those WWS parses I linked. Last edited by Sebudai : 06/29/07 at 6:24 PM. | |||||||||||
| #190 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Tharas |
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(I'll move this somewhere if it's appropriate, I just couldn't find a better place) | |||||||||||
| #191 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Myul |
It provides the same bonus as any talent, metagem or enchant does - +8% running speed.
So it's just fine while leveling JC, having a third escape option beside stoneclaw + spirit wolf and [Nifty Stopwatch]. But it's not really better then putting Enchant Boots - Minor Speed on your feet or using [Defiler's Mail Greaves] (of any level). But there are several trinkets, i would prefer over it: Tidal Charm http://www.wowhead.com/?item=1404 Figurine - Truesilver Boar http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21763 (not because of the AP, but the boar is really strong for this level) Rune of the Guard Captain - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=19120 (Horde) Lifestone - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=833 Linken's Boomerang - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11905#00zc Hand of Justice - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11815 | |||||||||||
| #192 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Leachim |
How would you value Haste Rating compared to CR/AP/HR - assuming your weaponspeed will remain over 1.5 with BL and flurry?
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| #193 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Sebudai |
Probably something like 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 1 Haste Rating. According to math posted earlier in this thread it should actually only take 0.9 haste rating to equal the benefit of 2 AP/1 CR/1.43 HR, so I'm rounding up a little.
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| #194 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Beowolf |
EquipOptimizer
Hey Tornhoof, GREAT WORK on setting up the filters! There's only one problem...when I import my armory profile, and lock the items and do an optimization for gems (your v12 did seem to indicate that different gems were more useful depending on gear)...the entire program crashes and has to be restarted. Any idea whats causing this?
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| #195 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Tornhoof |
You currently can not optimize Gems only, you shouldn't take the Gems too serious either, since they are only optimized locally (for each item individually), not globally for all the items combined.
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| #196 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | TradewindKlaatubarada |
Few discussions I'd like to see:
Metagem choice? Haste value as a stat? T5 bonus VS T6 bonus? 2.7MH/2.7OH vs 2.7MH/2.8OH +4STR/+4CR better than +8HIT at wich +hit threshold? Tsunami Talisman VS Ashtongue Talisman Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 07/02/07 at 9:18 AM. | |||||||||||
| #197 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
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Metagem - generally accepted as 3% Crit Dmg > Haste effect > soul shard gem > stam/stun resist I believe we are treating haste as a 0.9 or 1.0 weight on stats. The tiered bonuses I can't really speak of since I'm not up to that point yet, although the T5 2pc certainly has value for a player who plays to the hybrid/support style, less value to those who want to be a rogue in mail. There is no detrimental effect that anyone is aware of from having an OH slower than the MH to the Windfury cycle, the only downside is that you lose the "bugged" flurry effect from having the same MH/OH speeds. Str/Crit gems are always better than +8 Hit. No shaman should ever be using +8 Hit gems unless for some silly reason they chose not to grab the +9% Hit from talents. The Ashtongue trinket was shown in the Itemization thread to have less AP bonus over time than the Bloodlust brooch did, so the Tsunami Talisman would likely be the better choice. | |||||||||||
| #198 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Wolflord |
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a- As long as you happen to have 2 blue gems use Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, failing that Swift Skyfire. b- One point of haste rating is worth about one point of strength (only 3 posts above yours). c- T5 4piece is roghly 3-4% dps, T6 4piece is closer to 2%, though the gains from having 4 pieces of the superior tier 6 outweigh this. d- Conclusions have been inconclusive. e- The str/crit gem will ALWAYS be better for all levels of gear from zero hit rating to hit capped (unless youre not actually enh specced, just wanting to do some physical dps with your resto spec). f- On a stand and deliver fight the Ashtongue Talisman looks like a 137AP which is far superior to the Tsunami Talisman. Edit:: or not. Depends on the uptime of the Tsunami AP buff, one proc every 70 seconds or more often would make the Tsunami better than the Ashtongue, any less would favour the Ashtongue (excuse my bad midnight maths). edit:: Beaten by Malan. Last edited by Wolflord : 07/02/07 at 9:30 AM. Reason: Bad midnight maths | |||||||||||
| #199 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
Here's the original analysis done on the Ashtongue -
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| #200 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | TradewindKlaatubarada |
Please, check this:
![]() http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5...izationry2.jpg If you detect any flaw, tell me. | |||||||||||
| #251 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
According to theory at least. This all would require testing to verify.
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| #252 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Disquette | ||||||||||||
| #253 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
I could lie and tell you I understood your Flurry stuff Disquette but I wouldn't be very convincing.
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| #254 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | martin0641 |
I was comparing the new Vet boots with the weighted values and it seems one pair is worth 62 points and the other 64. I was aiming at 50% raid crit with 1900-2200 atk power between trinkets. I figured the massive amount of crits would outpace the seemingly small amount of damage gains from attack power, especially from WF damage. Especially when I gain so much attack from trinkets and buffs, I thought the crit itself during the 15-20 second trinket periods would be a really big boost. Is 28 attack power really worth .5 crit chance?
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| #255 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Hedin |
If any1 is interested in 3 sec WF cooldown showing addon - try out my ACE2 WF3sec v0.4, btw lucky shamans with 1st tier5 set bonus will be surprised :-)
Last edited by Hedin : 07/04/07 at 2:49 AM. | |||||||||||
| #256 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
I don't like surprises, what's the surprise?
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| #257 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Disquette |
The main thing it shows is that having 2 identical speed weapons doesn't show much (any) bonus over having weapons that are very different in speeds for the purposes of flurry uptime.
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| #258 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Hedin |
it just shows Invigorated cooldown in center of the screen when it's on
![]() If you don't like the position try to edit core.lua ![]() local x=0 local y=50 Last edited by Hedin : 07/05/07 at 4:47 AM. | |||||||||||
| #259 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Nemaa |
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But I wouldn't say the script is not useful at all. I'll try out a lot of weapon combinations. | |||||||||||
| #260 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Stigmata |
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| #261 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
I'm somewhat curious, Disquette/Pater or anyone else, have we modeled the effect of hitting SS every 10 sec when its lit versus only hitting it when a WF CD is up?
Btw I ran your sim today Pater and it matched EXACTLY the DPS I put out on Mag tonight. Well done sir. Last edited by Malan : 07/03/07 at 9:20 PM. | |||||||||||
| #262 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Disquette |
What is Mag's armor mitigation?
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| #263 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Hedin |
I see u tried my addon? :-)
Last edited by Hedin : 07/04/07 at 2:49 AM. | |||||||||||
| #264 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Spooky |
Thank you for posting this excellent source of information Malan and thank you for those who drafted and contributed to the theorycraft. My eyes were opened on several matters and I know my raid performance will improve as a result.
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| #265 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Magna_FA |
Just wanted to put up some data from my testing I did today. I had the Syphon of the Nathrezim (2.8 speed 100dps) from BT and just received a Netherbane (2.6 speed 93dps) and after reading this thread started to wonder which would be better in my main hand, considering so many people saying that you should always put the slower weapon in your off hand to minimize wf procs. But in this case, there is a 7 dps difference in the 2 weapons as well as the speed difference.
So I took my fugly neon axe and went to the Blasted Lands and beat on those level 55 unkillable mobs. I did a run of .5 mill damage with the slower weapon in my main hand, then took the dps measurement from Violation (trying to keep both str and agi totems up at all times), then again but with the faster weapon as suggested in my main hand. Then repeated those 2 tests again to double check and average. I could have probably done it more to be more accurate, but I was already seeing a trend. In this case, it seemed the slower, higher dps, higher damage range weapon was best used in the main hand, rather than having the slow weapon in the off hand. I know it's probably not too accurate, but the difference was on average of the 2 tests, 34 dps difference in favor of the slow weapon in the main hand. So to double check this, I used Pater's java simulator and put in my weapons and something along the lines of my gear (couldn't remember the exact in raid values, so I just guessed, none the less, no matter the values, it's close enough to illustrate the issue.) And this is what I got: ![]() ------------------------------------ ESCS ------------------------------------- -- INPUT DATA -- Player AP=2400, H=20.0%, C=36.0%, Haste=0.0%. SScooldown=10.0s Player Weapons: MH=170-317/2.6s, OH=196-365/2.8s Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0% Combat duration: 360000 seconds -- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- MH Wh: Swings=177151 | M=(5.5%), D=(6.5%), G=(24.9%), C=(36.1%), H=(27.1%) OH Wh: Swings=164301 | M=(5.5%), D=(6.4%), G=(25.1%), C=(36.1%), H=(26.9%) MH WF: Swings= 70270 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.7%), H=(57.8%) OH WF: Swings= 58622 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.9%), H=(57.6%) MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.9%), H=(57.6%) OH SS: Swings= 33654 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.2%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.7%) -- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 342175512 Total -- MH Wh: Dmg=(34.5%) | G=(16%)[356-466], C=(61%)[948-1243], H=(23%)[476-622] OH Wh: Dmg=(17.6%) | G=(16%)[195-258], C=(61%)[522-688], H=(23%)[261- 344] MH WF: Dmg=(23.9%) | G=(never), C=(55%)[1551-1963], H=(45%)[775-981] OH WF: Dmg=(12.3%) | G=(never), C=(55%)[968-1202], H=(45%)[484-601] MH SS: Dmg=(07.7%) | G=(never), C=(56%)[949-1243], H=(44%)[476-622] OH SS: Dmg=(04.0%) | G=(never), C=(56%)[521-688], H=(44%)[260-344] Flurried white swings: MH=85.9%, OH=85.9% DPS = 950.5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ ESCS ------------------------------------- -- INPUT DATA -- Player AP=2400, H=20.0%, C=36.0%, Haste=0.0%. SScooldown=10.0s Player Weapons: MH=196-365/2.8s, OH=170-317/2.6s Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0% Combat duration: 360000 seconds -- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- MH Wh: Swings=164272 | M=(5.4%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(36.1%), H=(27.0%) OH Wh: Swings=177137 | M=(5.6%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(35.8%), H=(27.0%) MH WF: Swings= 63100 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(36.2%), H=(57.4%) OH WF: Swings= 65392 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.7%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.3%) MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.4%) OH SS: Swings= 33634 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.8%), H=(57.7%) -- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 344599700 Total -- MH Wh: Dmg=(35.0%) | G=(16%)[392-516], C=(61%)[1041-1375], H=(23%)[521-688] OH Wh: Dmg=(17.1%) | G=(16%)[178-233], C=(61%)[474-622], H=(23%)[238- 311] MH WF: Dmg=(23.5%) | G=(never), C=(56%)[1698-2165], H=(44%)[849-1082] OH WF: Dmg=(12.4%) | G=(never), C=(56%)[888-1092], H=(44%)[444-546] MH SS: Dmg=(08.4%) | G=(never), C=(56%)[1046-1375], H=(44%)[521-688] OH SS: Dmg=(03.6%) | G=(never), C=(55%)[475-622], H=(45%)[237-311] Flurried white swings: MH=85.8%, OH=85.9% DPS = 957.2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd like to hear other people's responses and testing in this area, as well as any thoughts and ideas. | |||||||||||
| #266 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Freyalis |
Well after running Pater's sim for a while it pretty much confirms what we postulated before in that Potency == Fiery for DPS.
Average over five runs Potency added 9.4 DPS (simulated by adding 40 AP) Fiery averaged out to 9.52 DPS. I simulated fiery by calculating proc chance (27% for a 2.7 speed weapon like Planar Edge) then obtaining number of procs from total MH attacks Fiery MH = 264552 Attacks @ 27% proc chance [top] 71429 Fiery Attacks @ 48 avg dmg per for 3,428,592 dmg9.52 DPS increase Fiery average damage assumes * +10% Coe * +15% Imp Scorch * +5% Misery * 1.025 Crit modifier (5% for +50% dmg) * 0.87 Resist rate modifier assuming Natures Guidance. So Technically i would say that Potency is better as it doesn't rely on outside variables in order to perform. And of course either are stripped by Crusader or Mongoose. | |||||||||||
| #267 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Brum |
Might want to add that War Stomp and heals reset both swing timers, even if it's an invigorated LHW.
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| #268 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Celetroll |
Stacking haste for shaman
Got a question that I can´t quite seem to find answer. While we all agree that haste is good for shamans, then question - how good is exactly stacking different haste - remains bit unclear.
Source of my hesitation is item budget values. As haste does not stacks on 1+1=2 principle, wouldn´t we be better off not stacking haste? Let me explain. Let´s imagine that we have two identical dps output equipment for the same slot. One with HR, other with CR/AP or what ever. Now, when we pick up another HR item and stack it up with our current one (don´t forget flurry as well), then would HR stacking formula render our previously equal HR item inferior in dps output to AP/CR/HR item, that stacks on 1+1=2 bases? Since you get full benefit from AP/CR/HR but only partial from HR stacks. So when we weight and HR item, it must have way superior dps stats when compared with a single item? That question is becoming more and more important to me every day, since we are raiding BT. Atm i could apply for http://www.thottbot.com/i32749, but I cant really figure out, is it worth the dkp or not. As well as should I use battle drums while bloodlusted or wait until bloodlust wears off, what gives more overall dps? | |||||||||||
| #269 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Boro |
Pater's Calculator
Sorry if I missed the link to this earlier in this thread but could somebody provide it for me please.
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| #270 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Disquette |
Magna, this is acknowledged in the "Itemizing Enhancement" thread. Having a slow main hand is important as well.
Malan, not to take away from Pater's sim at all, but about it matching your dps figures... This would assume you had 100% time on target for Mag, had 0 weapon procs, no Heroism, and never used earthshock/flameshock... And that Mag, after any curses, fairy fire, sunders, etc, happens to have exactly the armor reduction that you have in the sim. If you really want to show something cool, do the blasted lands tests (armor value = 23% mitigation) and match it up to the sim when using nothing special, then add more variables as you go (storm strike, windfury). | |||||||||||
| #271 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
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Oops forgot all about that. | |||||||||||
| #272 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Khlysti |
Invigorated does reset swing timer, I can go out and get a log report if needed, but casting an invigorated lhw right before a mh swing is due results in me waiting ~2 sec (from when the lhw was cast) for the next mh swing.
As to the comment on stacking haste, the game simply adds the haste ratings together and then applies them, so it is indeed 1+1=2, were it to apply them sequentially (like it does with flurry/heroism over something hasted by rating) then it would actually give more dps not less. | |||||||||||
| #273 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
What about the enhance shaman who take Nature's Swiftness, does using that reset the timer as well?
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| #274 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Nite_Moogle | ||||||||||||
| #275 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | • Valoran |
AFAIK, this is the normal behaviour when a global cooldown is used.
Last edited by Valoran : 07/04/07 at 7:14 PM. | |||||||||||
| #326 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Stigmata |
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While it may be a boost, I cant see why I would ever be arsed to do it. Last edited by Stigmata : 07/06/07 at 2:23 PM. | |||||||||||
| #327 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Ilmatar |
I am a non-totem weaver, but I tried it for Gruul last time (well for a little bit) just to see if it was as annoying as I thought it would be.
There was visible benefit (roughly judging by ktm), between the time I tried weaving threat/wf and the time that I just ran WF. However, dancing around the cave ins, trying to keep shocks going, and shatters, I gave this up after I hit my first Shamanic Rage. My mana was getting eaten up faster (No more 5s ticks), and I just wasn't comfortable with the mana levels I was sustaining, the delay on shocks due to GCD and the chaining effect that had on SS (when using SS to try to proc WF after wfcd). The fight just felt more chaotic to me. Part of that was just, obviously, not having a bunch of experience twisting totems. The threat benefit was there, but I really only saw the Arms warrior get a real win from that, because early on in the fight she had some spikes. Overall, it wasn't something that I really think is a great tactic. | |||||||||||
| #328 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Malan |
I get nervous if I get below 50% mana - I like to have a big reserve to spam heals on myself for when I inevitably pull something I shouldn't be pulling, and I am prone to throw heals at people to help out when I can.
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| #329 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Aett |
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I did use TA on void reaver last night with a great deal of success, I was able to go all out the entire fight and came close pulling aggro at the very end. We have our melee dps stay in the entire fight instead of stepping out to avoid poundings. My dps warrior did unfortunately die to aggro with less than a minute left in the fight. EDIT: Took the question to a more appropriate thread. Last edited by Aett : 07/06/07 at 4:38 PM. | |||||||||||
| #330 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Hedin |
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| #331 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Malan |
Well that's the official WoWHead.com data for it and it agrees with all of the other major data mining sites.
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| #332 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Shabadu |
What is everyone's experience with Shrouding Potions? After pulling aggro on VR a couple weeks back one of the guild alchemists sent me a couple stacks and told me to stop dying. Using them for a week on Teron and such where I have a problem with coming close to the threat cap seemed to make a difference, but I didn't have any hard numbers on it. The single best time I've found to use them is in the first 20 or so seconds of a fight so you start at very low threat with a slightly higher ceiling to deal with WF's unpredictability.
As for my latest experiences, I was forced to twist TA/WF during the last 20% of our latest anetheron to bloodlust my group. I was pretty much capped, while my rogues and warriors were safely behind. Managed to keep DPSing through it coming very close to pulling aggro, and I probably would've without twisting it. I would never consider it for a long term solution, I felt really pressured by the GCD and watching Omen, enough so that it wouldn't be worth the marginal gains. | |||||||||||
| #333 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Malacort |
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MACRO 14 "G/WF" INV_Misc_QuestionMark /castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, stopmacro; END MACRO 15 "TA/WF" INV_Misc_QuestionMark /castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Tranquil Air Totem, stopmacro; END | |||||||||||
| #334 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Myul |
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=28548
-800 Threat, sadly it has a 2 minutes cooldown. Seems not worthy like all the trinkets excluding [Prism of Inner Calm] (if/when it's working as intended). | |||||||||||
| #335 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Leachim |
I wonder if anyone can help me with the following:
I usually time my Shamanistic Rage in combination with Lust for Battle (278 ap from Bloodlus brooch trinket) and Blood Fury (orc racial, 282 ap). Now Id like to get these three actions into a single macro but failed in typing the proper macro for it so far. Anyone here can give the right Macro for that? Note: The order of actions = Blood Fury -> Bloodlust Brooch -> Shamanistic Rage Bloodlust Brooch is equipped in my first trinketslot. Thnx! | |||||||||||
| #336 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | songah |
the macro is
/stopcasting /cast blood fury /stopcasting /use bloodlust brooch /stopcasting /cast shamanistic rage you can use this same thing to insta trinket/em/ns/cl just use /stopcasting and use or cast whatever you want in order | |||||||||||
| #337 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Kirion |
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i'd write something like this /castsequence reset=15 blood fury, bloodlust brooch, shamanistic rage mash 3 times note: this will not work if something on cd... another version will be /use bloodlust brooch /castrandom blood fury, shamanistic rage again you need to mash it Last edited by Kirion : 07/07/07 at 8:13 AM. | |||||||||||
| #338 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Leachim |
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![]() So /cast Blood Fury /use Bloodlust Brooch /cast Shamanistic Rage Thnx for the help! | |||||||||||
| #339 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Celetroll |
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
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| #340 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Ardonomus |
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| #341 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Nemaa |
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![]() [21] = {name="!!IMBA T5!!", search="You gain Invigorated", r=0/256, g=256/256, b=100/256, frame=SCT.MSG, class={"Shaman"}},
/sct menu find Animation/Misc. Options | |||||||||||
| #342 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Malan |
Meh. My raid leader is now encouraging me to pull aggro and die so that I can just a get a threat wipe.
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| #343 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Idioteque |
I find they key to low threat generation is well timed shamanistic rage and totem weaving with it, also dropping traq at the start of the fight for 1-2 mins also helps.
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| #344 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Morelis |
I've had decent results with just ragging on our tanks till their TPS improves.
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| #345 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Aeolian |
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Also, up until now I haven't played around with totem weaving, I think I am going to mess around with the Windfury / Tranquil Air mix a bit and see if that helps out at all. Honestly I think the mana could be better spent some where else, but lower DPS is better the no DPS I suppose. | |||||||||||
| #346 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Patrik |
I used to have great problems with aggro as well of course, but I have to say, that after our recent nerf, our tanks are way ahead of me threat-wise. So if any of you is experiencing this kind of problem now, i'd suggest providing your tanks with link to some basic tanking mechanics forum (or some equip - I didn't believe Stigmata he has no threat problems at all on Maghteridon for example, but after our tanks got few items, its the same for me).
Of course things get nasty on Void Reaver for example, but Big5 combo (BoS, TA, Subtlety enchant, Fetish of the Sand Reaver and Prism of Inner Calm) still works like a charm and I can go full damage. | |||||||||||
| #347 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Leachim |
Theres no need to pull agro as an enhancement shaman fighting Void Reaver simply becouse that encounter isnt about enhancement shamans (or any meleeclass for that matter) maximising their dps - its about a raid surviving while doing a certain amount of stable, reasonable dps.
Threat rly isnt an issue any longer imo, except for a few fights (for example gruul, morogrim, magtheridon) where its there for a reason, namely preventing the fight from becoming even more easymode than it already is. So for any encounter where you hit a threat-cap: just slow down your dps, its ok, its working as intended and theres no need for more of your dps to win the battle. The majority of current encounters however, does not suffer from any of these threat-issues - sadly enough they have other ways of capping our dps output to a level that is fitting for our role as support-dps. | |||||||||||
| #348 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Aeolian |
I think out of our current killable bosses, Void Reaver is the only one I have any real difficulty with threat. While I can stay alive through 75% of the fight, the last 25% or so I usually start capping out and its harder for the tanks to push past me, not impossible, just harder. Usually at the 25% mark I either remove the Windfury enchants from my weapons or die.
As for fights like Morogrim and Magtheridon, I never have problems with threat, ever. I can push my dps to its max and don't have problems. Of course at the moment my weapons are a bit on the fast side, but even once I have the slower weapons I don't think it will be a problem. We have some pretty amazing tanks. One thing I had completely forgot about, is the Subtlety enchant to cloak, going to have to get that. | |||||||||||
| #349 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ikillyouheal |
I've glared through this whole thread, but I couldnt find any post(Maybe I'm just too tired for this at the moment) about 4p Gladiator gear(Mostly s2)?
(4) Set: Reduces the cooldown of your Stormstrike ability by 1 sec. Wouldnt this result in 10% more total SS damage done? Would this be worth considering for a raiding shaman to use? Anyone that's in a better shape to try to calculate how much DPS this would end up as (Keeping in mind that this would result in raid nature damage getting a bit more boost aswell.) | |||||||||||
| #350 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Malan |
Off the top of my head I'd say you'd risk losing more DPS than you'd gain since there's a lot of itemization points spent on Resilience, and the 2pc bonus is providing little to no benefit in a raid.
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| #351 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • ikillyouheal |
I'd figured as much about the 2p bonus, I guess it's really a matter of where you are in gear progression, (T6 would not be worth switching out, but maybe Karazhan epics?)
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| #352 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Patonus |
ok, I've read this thread and read some of the player feedback and I just want to confirm what I did was the best choice.
I used to have 1446 AP, 212 HR and 24.45% Crit. Since then I have changed my gems around to reflect 1472 AP, 188 Hit and 25.99 Crit. Was this the right choices? (basically changed the +8hit gems to the +4crit/+4str gems) or did I make a mistake at understanding priority stats? | |||||||||||
| #353 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Aeolian |
Yes it was the right choice. I actually made the same change recently, I was sitting about 3 hit rating below the Hit Cap (25.6% I believe - with talents of course). Recently changed hit gems for 4crt/4str gems or 8 str gems.
I've had a few people on my server ask me about a certain Hit level they should be aiming for, generally tell them there isn't one but 170-180 is a nice number. Right around the 19-20% hit range. I can't say for sure this is the correct area, a lot of the enhancement shamans here raid with much less and are further progressed then I am, its just what I aim for and like. | |||||||||||
| #354 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Brum |
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| #355 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | TotemLover |
Removed.
Last edited by TotemLover : 08/08/07 at 6:03 AM. | |||||||||||
| #356 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | songah |
its been said wf on warrior/combat rogues are much much more beneficial than wrath of air. If you guys have a enhance sham, put them in the melee group if not i suggest you stay with melee for str and wf but switch out to another group just to drop mana tide.
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| #357 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Tilley |
Hi, i have browsed the 15 pages of this thread that i was linked and i am finding it Very informative. Thanks for all the hard work you fellas have done with this theory crafting and i am hoping it will help me more in the future.
Although before reading this thread i think i have made some bad choices in the way of gear. http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...issan&n=Tilley If some one could take a browse over that and tell me where i should improve although i am pretty sure i know where, for example. 1.5 offhand is a bad idea and i will work for the 2.6 speed offhand. I replaced some gems with +8 str over +16 ap but kept some of the major ones like +20 AP because by my calculations it was better then +8 str. I have done this with a few gem slots, Also my trinkets need replacing but i think they are the main issues. Any advice would be much appreciated and any item recommendations that are easily obtainable would also be much appreciated. Thanks for your time. | |||||||||||
| #358 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Hedin |
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| #359 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
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Why is the Violet Eye badge the best trinket that you have for that slot? You didn't pick up the Bladefist trinket at least from Hellfire Peninsula? +150 Health to Chest is a Tank enchant. You need to use +6 Stats instead. Your weapon enchants are horrid - I'm hoping those are only because you're working on the mats for some real enchants. | |||||||||||
| #360 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Wandre |
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I've only been enhance for 2 weeks now and my DPS is sorely lacking because of the wep in particular. It's really painful to see WF proc for around 2.5k-3k damage on main hand and a weak 1k-1.5k on offhand. And to see it many times over because of the speed is just that much worse. Another thing is try gemming up your hit rating. AP is important only if you're actually connecting with your target. Pick up that hit rating to at least 150 through gems if you can and add some AP/crit after you hit that cap. It helped me a LOT. | |||||||||||
| # | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 Edited onPatch 2.1.2 | Tilley |
During Karazhan raid's i seem to be in the top 3 of the DPS at all times against opponents that out gear me by a mile. I am currently testing some DPS theory's in blasted lands on some mobs and i am hoping to pick up the PvP 1 hander before the Arena 1 hander to confirm these theory's.
And a reply to the above post, I was informed by several raiders that its mandatory to have 8,000 health unbuffed which was my goal. Also the weapon enchants were for free i was helping someone level up while i get my mongoose. My talent tree is such a mess becouse im still required to heal in gruuls where as i DPS in Karazhan so its kind of a mix and match situation at the moment. Last edited by Tilley : 07/08/07 at 3:23 PM. | |||||||||||
| #362 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan | ||||||||||||
| #363 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Tilley |
I have read that +8 STR Is the most beneficial gem so when i could i tried adding that to my Armour.
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| #364 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Tilley |
Running a test on some mobs in the outland using a DPS meter addon i discovered i did over a 70 second fight.
Gladiator's Left Ripper Binds when picked up Off Hand Fist Weapon 95 - 178 Damage Speed 1.50 (91.0 damage per second) +21 Stamina Durability 75 / 75 Requires Level 70 Equip: Improves hit rating by 9. Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 15. Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 10. Equip: Increases attack power by 28. I sustained 919 DPS over the fight. and with Colossal War Axe of Power Binds when equipped One-Hand Axe 94 - 176 Damage Speed 2.60 (51.9 damage per second) +38 Attack Power Durability 75 / 75 Requires Level 63 I sustained 929 DPS. All the variables used were the same each fight finishing in exactly 70 seconds. Disappointing that i wasted my arena points on this weapon before i considered the mechanics of a shaman. Also i do not have any solid math on the situation however, I noticed that i did roughly 20-40 more DPS on each fight by using stormstrike whenever the Windfury cool down was up instead of just button mashing it. | |||||||||||
| #365 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | • Aeolian |
Just a thought, I would have a discussion with your Raid Leader and officers about your roll in raids. If they are so short on healers that they need to make an Enhancement shaman heal they need to do something about it.
I personally will carry my healing gear around and if they are wiping on something because we are short just a little extra healing I will help out, but I do nothing more then throw an occasional small heal at someone if I see them low most of the time. Using that Hybrid spec, you suck as both a support healer and the support dps roll your suppose to fall into as an Enhancement. You may be able to put out some great numbers for your own DPS, but not taking Unleashed Rage is just silly, not to mention Shamanistic Rage. Both those talents are pure gold for us, the first one being pure gold for the melee classes in your group. As for the gems, Inscribed Noble Topaz is decent as well. Edit: And your an Orc, get some Axes! | |||||||||||
| #366 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Tidalclyps |
After looking over all this, there is some really great information here. What I am curious to see is some different ideas from people as to the "perfect" pve gear set up from all available gear. Rank maybe your top 2 items in each slot.
Talking all the way threw BT and HS. I'm sure people have a lot of different ideas and everyone says that you need x amount of hit, crit, ap. But how about compiling it all in a full set, make the gear work to actually achieve those perfect stats. Personally why my goals are is 1900ap, 29%crit and between 180-220 hit. ATM I'm sacrificing hit for strength and crit (also waiting on a decent offhand. Will most likely pick up the MerGlad mace on tuesday). | |||||||||||
| #367 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan |
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Your guild is doing no good by having you split your talents so badly between Resto and Enhance. You'd be better off going full Resto if you aren't picking up Unleashed Rage. | |||||||||||
| #368 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Nemaa |
I'm sure the best weapon to use in main hand and offhand is Syphon of the Nathrezim. There was an "Enhancement shaman lootzor" link somewhere to see the best 5 items in each slot.
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| #369 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Tilley |
Thanks for all the great advice i guess its one of those. I am enhancement or i am not raiding situations.. I will begin warming the bench
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| #370 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Ardonomus |
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http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5 I'm amazed of how many people reply to this post without reading the OP, almost all the info is right there. | |||||||||||
| #371 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Tidalclyps |
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| #372 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Xoya | ||||||||||||
| #373 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Morelis |
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| #374 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | ◊ Malan | ||||||||||||
| #375 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.2 | Tidalclyps |
No, I know what I want. I'm just curious what everyone else's top Items are. I don't see why this is causing an argument/discussion or confusion what I'm asking. Was hoping to start some sort of discussion as to x-item vs x-item and people's reasons for liking one thing over another. We aren't supposed to have all the exact same gear.
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| #401 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nemaa | ||||||||||||
| #402 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | SentinelBorg | ||||||||||||
| #403 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #404 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Wolflord | ||||||||||||
| #405 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nemaa | ||||||||||||
| #406 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Muj | ||||||||||||
| #407 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Last edited by Malan : 07/10/07 at 11:09 AM. | |||||||||||
| #408 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | panny | ||||||||||||
| #409 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #410 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Negative | ||||||||||||
| #411 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Wolflord | ||||||||||||
| #412 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #413 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Pearl | ||||||||||||
| #414 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Wolflord | ||||||||||||
| #415 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Acks | ||||||||||||
| #416 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shabadu | ||||||||||||
| #417 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #418 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | panny | ||||||||||||
| #419 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #420 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #421 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ryley | ||||||||||||
| #422 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #423 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Leachim | ||||||||||||
| #424 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shabadu | ||||||||||||
| #425 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Erongg | ||||||||||||
| #451 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ruzia | ||||||||||||
| #452 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #453 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Muj | ||||||||||||
| #454 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | songah | ||||||||||||
| #455 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Acks | ||||||||||||
| #456 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob |
Last edited by Rob : 07/10/07 at 10:23 PM. | |||||||||||
| #457 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Khlysti | ||||||||||||
| #458 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Disquette | ||||||||||||
| #459 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Igniter | ||||||||||||
| #460 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Shalas | ||||||||||||
| #461 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Disquette | ||||||||||||
| #462 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | panny | ||||||||||||
| #463 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Mextro | ||||||||||||
| #464 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Beroll | ||||||||||||
| #465 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Disquette | ||||||||||||
| #466 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Kissmyaxe | ||||||||||||
| #467 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #468 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Beroll | ||||||||||||
| #469 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #470 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Kissmyaxe | ||||||||||||
| #471 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aeolian | ||||||||||||
| #472 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Mindrila | ||||||||||||
| #473 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Beroll | ||||||||||||
| #474 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Kissmyaxe |
Last edited by Kissmyaxe : 07/11/07 at 7:22 AM. | |||||||||||
| #475 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | caladein | ||||||||||||
| #526 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
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Regarding Rank 1 Earth shock, I'd say 2 things would prohibit that - loss of damage from only using rank 1 earth shocks, and the low spell crit rate enhance has. Ashtongue Trinket stuff - is 200 Stormstrikes a large enough statistical sample size to use for analysis? Last edited by Malan : 07/12/07 at 12:44 PM. Reason: changed wording so that I appear like I know what I'm talking | |||||||||||
| #527 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nifty01 |
Im doing some more testing today after the Raid to see if the 95% is really accurate.
Concerning the [Prism of Inner Calm], my Omen is not Calculating in the Trinket at all. | |||||||||||
| #528 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Khlysti |
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As I said before, at first I observed a proc rate of around 80% when dual wielding and assumed this was caused by 2 weapons each having a 50% proc (which would give 75% uptime, well within acceptable range of 80% for the number of stormstrikes I had time to do). However EU servers went down before I had time to test with just 1 weapon to see if it really was a 'dual 50%' proc or just plain high. The proc rate observed with 1 weapon was once again 80%+ showing it had nothing to do with dual wield and that the '50%' label on the trinket is false. | |||||||||||
| #529 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin |
I think this formulas are needed in the 1st post.
In full Enhance Build with Elemental Weapons (+40% WF Damage) and Weapon Mastery(+10% Melee Damage) Put in an AP value that you will have when completely buffed with all procs and totems included (c) Disquette MainHand Damage (<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110% MainHand WF (<Weapon Damage>+(AP+WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110%*140% OffHand Damage (<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2*110% OffHand WF 2.1 patch ((<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2+(WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>))*110%*140% You may use my Online PHP Script to calculate damage. And BTW Weapon Mastery makes only 12.73AP=+1DPS Last edited by Hedin : 07/12/07 at 4:49 PM. | |||||||||||
| #530 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
I'm confused, how are you relating 10% Weapon Damage to Attack Power?
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| #531 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
Hedin, you should probably note that you don't plan on Unleashed Rage giving additional bonuses in that example. Or perhaps make it clear that you mean "put in an AP value that you will have when completely buffed with all procs and totems included". By the way, I like that you adjusted the formula properly for OH WF 2.1 :-)
Malan, I'm not sure where you're getting that. The only 10% I see in there is from Weapon Mastery, which does affect the overall swing. | |||||||||||
| #532 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
From his last statement
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| #533 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Kegsta |
A very interesting thread with a lot of good info in it, thanks to all those who have contributed so far.
I'm currently elemental, but the guild has no enhancement shamans so our melle do pathetic DPS, I'm currently collecting enhancement gear and will respec this tuesday when i get this weeks arena points for the mace. I got the [Darkmoon Card: Wrath] and will give it a try, it looks promising, should be quite nice for my very low level gear. I also have this weapon [Rivenspike], I plan to try in my offhand -600 AC raid wide buff would fit quite well with my role as enhancement, being one of very few 2.9 weapons, I'm hoping it will still produce resonable WF dps when my AP gets up. At level 60 this weapon proc didn't work because of the low debuff limit and 40 people it would just get pushed right off, at 70 my raid runs very low on shadow priests and locks. I also have the [Bashguuder] with any luck I will beable to duel wield them the first 10 seconds of the fight to get 3 procs, then just have the offhand keep the proc up. Last edited by Kegsta : 07/12/07 at 4:00 PM. | |||||||||||
| #534 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | tetracycloide |
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At least I hope that's what's going on otherwise I just embarassed myself by posting in a melee thread. | |||||||||||
| #535 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Kaubel | ||||||||||||
| #536 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
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| #537 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin |
I misstyped the formulas for original swings... now thay are without WF *140% :-)))
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| #538 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
On consumables - is there a clear winner on which Pots/Elixirs to use? I know quite a few people use Flask of Relentless Assault, I was using Fel Strength until recently and then started using Agility pots instead. Whats the order of importance of the three?
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| #539 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
I've got a bit of money to burn, so I usually use Fel strength/Mageblood and then grab some Scrolls of Strength and AGI V.
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| #540 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
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Flask = 120 Major Agility = 110 Fel Strength = 90 Major Strength = 77 I'd say the flask is the clear winner, especially for content where you will be wiping. For easier farm stuff agi gives better bang for the buck than the other pots. | |||||||||||
| #541 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nifty01 |
OK, i did 468 more SS Hits with Ashtongue Trinket resulting in 420 Proccs (leaving out Misses that cant procc) = 89,7% Procchance
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| #542 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
Strange. Do you think its just bugged? Maybe checking to see if the other effects for elemental and resto are also the same higher proc rate would be a good idea.
Edit - added this info as a note to the trinket section to indicate that it might be bugged. | |||||||||||
| #543 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Nite_Moogle | ||||||||||||
| #544 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ruzia |
According to some comments on wowhead, the effects on darkmoon cards wrath and crusade stack on themselves, meaning you could use x2 wrath or crusade. That'd be pretty nuts with double crusade, a static benefit of 240 ap.
I don't do much math theorycrafting, but from reading the posts in this thread and others I would think the trinket hierarchy would be something like Ashtongue > Tsunami > DST > Hourglass > Bloodlust Brooch > Abacus > Crusade/Wrath Any thoughts? Maybe I'm way off, and I'm not sure where prism of inner calm would fit into there. | |||||||||||
| #545 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nifty01 |
The 468 Hits were all done during the Raid in Mount Hyjal, so the Mobs are rather Highlevel :P
Id say Trinket hierarchy is: Ashtongue> DST > Madness o.t.Betrayer > BLoodlust Brooch > Tsnunami > Hourglass Not sure about the Proccrate of Madness Trinket, could be better :> | |||||||||||
| #546 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
If we apply AEP values to the trinkets we get:
Ashtongue = 234 assuming 85% uptime. Dragonspine = 202.5 assuming 1.5ppm, I get higher ppm in testing but not in raids so this is probably a conservative estimate. Betrayer = 112 + proc which I'm not sure how to value, someone on wowhead is claiming 2-2.5 ppm on a sword rogue which seems pretty significant. Tsunami = 141 assuming 0.9 ppm. Crusade = 120 once it's stacked up which should take 10-15s, so a bit less in practice. Bloodlust Brooch = 118.3. Hourglass = 109 assuming 0.9 ppm. Abacus = 107.3. Wrath = too hard for me to figure out, another thread came to the conclusion it was quite poor for anyone with a reasonable amount of crit though. | |||||||||||
| #547 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
I don't have any numbers yet because the WWS hasn't been uploaded, but i can confirm similar results with the ashtongue trinket, i'd say 9/10 SS would result in me having the buff.
Running with 35-40% crit and 2700AP is damn nice. I broke 1400 DPS on Akama and 1200 on teron this evening. On the pot/flask debate, I prefer agility, flask has the benefit to not reapplying it, but 5 pots usually does me a full nights raiding since we don't have the learning part now. Just need dragonspine now, killing gruul since 17th Feb 07, had only 1 drop ![]() | |||||||||||
| #548 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Shabadu |
I prefer flasking right now; depending on how cheap marks of the illidari are on your server it is actually rather cheap. I can get marks for ~15g on Malganis if I'm diligent in AH trolling. Another thing in flasking's favor is EJ pc's and internet connections are always terrible in the summer for some unknown reason, and until recently I had a <6 fps on many boss fights leading to my untimely demise more often than I would like.
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| #549 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
Here is the Teron WWS Stigmata - WWS
I'm not sure what the ashtongue buff is showing as on there? possibly power surge? Teron 18 procs out of 27, also 17/32 and 13/17 on two wipes Bloodboil 18 procs out of 38 The sample is way to small, but I didn't get the trinket until after we killed akama, so looking at the full raid wouldn't give a better idea either. Teron DPS was 1362, which I think is the highest i've had in BT so far on a fight that lasted more than 5 minutes. | |||||||||||
| #550 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Mextro |
Okay i just saw the new violet eye rewards, and the leather chest kinda caught my eyes, (http://www.worldofraids.com/news/new...ye-rewards.jpg) is it worth it to farm for it? I currently have the nightbane mail chest, but i seriously need more hit.
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| #601 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Khlysti |
Yes, anything with a rating is added together to give a total % haste that comes from rating. Anything that has a flat % effect is applied on its own as a multiplier.
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| #602 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ardonomus |
What about DST, does it have it's own buff icon etc, while still being haste rating? Is it added up with the passive haste rating, or applied on it's own?
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| #603 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Igniter |
I would love to see a model (or numbers) showing the perfect amount of passive haste along with with x2 mongoose, dragonstrike, and flurry to hit a 1.5 speed on the nose.
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| #604 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Khlysti |
2.7/1.02/1.02/1.3 = 1.9962736/1.5 = 1.3308 = 347.39 rating, -212 for dragonstrike = 135 passive haste needed.
You then get 2.7/1.02/1.02/1.3/1.3305 = 1.5004 speed. valestalker + mukoa + 2x band of devastation = 36+37+31+31 = 135 passive haste, its almost like its planned :P | |||||||||||
| #605 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
Assuming haste is handled the way Khlysti described you would need 135 passive haste rating to hit almost exactly 1.5 with the items listed. It's really not useful to know though since you'd be optimizing your gear for a situation that will only happen rarely. Any compromises you made to reach that goal would almost certainly hurt your DPS overall.
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| #606 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
I hit 1.5 pretty regularly in raids, I however do not have any of the passive haste items yet. Cataclysm flurry (1.35), 2x Mongoose(1.02, 1.02), Dragonstrike, and Drums of Battle(1.278) = 1.504.
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| #607 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Igniter |
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| #608 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
Probability isn't a strong area for me and this is probably oversimplifying but given 80% uptime on flurry(pater's sim @ 30% crit) and 2ppm for dragonstrike(what I've observed in testing), the likelihood of both buffs being up at the same time is roughly 27%. Throw in 2 mongoose procs at 2ppm and you'll only spend about 7% of your time with all those buffs active.
These are pretty rough numbers though because I don't take into account buffs refreshing themselves or any changes to proc rates due to the extra haste. Still, the numbers should be in the ballpark and I'd maintain that optimizing your gear choices for a very small amount of time is not the best way to plan your upgrades. I know for myself I'll just pick the items that offer the best individual stats and try to make sure my average haste doesn't put me between 1.5 and 1.41. | |||||||||||
| #609 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
The 2 ppm from dragonstrike doesn't seem right, I'm certain its up more than that. On a slightly different note, I had 8 back to back procs a while back, the druid tanking was like, why do you have a permanent sprint animation.
edit: after looking at some WWS it would seemt he proc rate may be below 2 ppm, this seems strange because I tend to look at my character screen alot during raids, to see weapon speed, ap and crit (just to see what it spikes too) And the weapon speed are often hovering around 1.5 or lower, which I dont think would be the case without the dragonstrike proc. Another thought, does wws pick up a refresh of dragonstrike if i dont lose the buff? | |||||||||||
| #610 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | panny |
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2 PPM sounds okay to me, are you factoring in the fact that all those haste procs increases the chance for further haste procs? ![]() Last edited by panny : 07/16/07 at 7:53 AM. Reason: clarity | |||||||||||
| #611 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nemaa |
Addon for weapon speed tracking?
Is there any addon to track the MH/OH weapon speed over time? Can someone do it?
I'm thinking about a simple addon that summarizes weapon speed data like this: "Time spent in combat: 300 seconds Weapon speed, seconds, % of time spent 2.6, 45, 15% 2.0, 240, 80%" and so on... I think it would help us a lot to get real tested data. | |||||||||||
| #612 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ardonomus |
Going from [Fel Edged Battleaxe] to [High Warlord's Cleaver] in the OH added 136DPS for me on our last Tidewalker kill.
I've only received some minor upgrades and dumped some +hit for more crit and AP. Needless to say time spent reading here is time well spent! WWS WWS Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, keep it up! | |||||||||||
| #613 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Gwaihir |
Something seems odd with those logs.. In the first one you clocked in 22% white crit, while in the second you hit 38% white crits???
Same for other skills, WF went from 18% to 32% crit, while stormstrike seemed the most normal at 24% -> 28%. Was your group setup radically different, or something? That seems like an awfully large difference in crit to chalk up to WoW RNG streaks. | |||||||||||
| #614 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ardonomus |
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So okay, it wasn't only the OH weapon change, but I'm sure that contributed aswell! | |||||||||||
| #615 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ilmater |
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On Netherspite, with the Elemental Shaman in the blue beam, I used a different trinket to give him the full SS buff, so I can see that making a difference as far as usefulness, but I still would like to see the difference. | |||||||||||
| #616 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Oh right sorry missed the vial completely. 35 Hit Rating valued at 35/1.44 = 24.30 AEP with some sort of value from the proc... unless you're starved for +Hit this has just really turned out to be a poor trinket for shaman.
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| #617 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
Just noticed we're not using the same scales for the trinkets, to match up with the other ones I posted they would have values of:
DFT = 84 KotS = 92 Romulo's = 49 + proc. This might not be a terrible trinket after all. Assuming 2ppm which I think is a bit conservative with WF it would add on average 9.3dps. You could argue that is equivalent to 129ap, of course it doesn't synergize with our yellow damage(except for possibly stormstrike by a small amount) so it would roughly only add 1/2 the value of straight attack power. I would say a conservative estimate gives it an AEP of 113.5 which is about right for where it drops. | |||||||||||
| #618 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ilmater |
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Part of this is my ignorance, but I wouldn't think that 83 AEP (the difference between what the proc'd ability would have to get me vs. using the Abacus) would mean a 2% increase in my damage. Am I wrong? I could be, just asking. | |||||||||||
| #619 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Uh oh. Well that explains why I couldn't figure out how you had valued one of the haste trinkets. Can you check the first post real quick and make sure I didn't make any other slip ups?
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| #620 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis | ||||||||||||
| #621 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | berg |
Pure speculation on the Ashtongue talisman.
Behind the scenes stormstrike is likely implemented as the 2 swings and then any successful hit attempts to apply the stormstrike debuff. If each of these affects is granted a 50% chance to apply the effect then you get... - 5% of stormstrikes get dodged and result in nothing. - 95% both swings hit, both swings apply stormstrike (does not stack.) This results in 4 coinflips to apply the buff. 4 coin flips = 15/16 = 93.75% 93.75% * 0.95(non dodges) = 89% proc rate which is our observed rate. I am still 3 weeks out from the trinket but a simple way to test if this is what is happening is to have someone who has the trinket put on a 2 hander (or staff if they have no 2H talents) and go test the proc rate. If it works the way I am guessing a 2 hander should see a proc rate around 71%. Our class is so weird. Last edited by berg : 07/16/07 at 3:29 PM. | |||||||||||
| #622 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
More evidence that the itemization team is not working very closely with the mechanics team?
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| #623 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Dragonreaper |
First off thanks for gathering all this up into one thread, it has helped me alot in dicideing what to do. I do however have a few questions.
First off, whats up with flurry?, I see alot of math here use flurry as 30%, but in game, while duelwielding, it is more around 23%. Is this some kind of tooltip bug I missed or am I just missing something? In that regard that brings me to my current problem, after a long time of thinking it out I have dicided to choose the Drakefist over the Planar Edge. I can't seem to choose an offhand though, I ruled out the blue weapons as they are all faster then the drakefist but have less dps then the two crafted weapons, and the arena weapon should be an option next season but not this one. So that leaves me with the two crafted weapons. From a stat point I like the stats of the Fel Edged Axe better, I saw a post a while back that showed 2.7/2.2 and 2.7/2.4 have the same chance to steal wf's so the advantege of the Runic Hammer is it's 8.5~ more dmg to wf's and ss, I then ran into another peice of info, I hear the drakefist procs alot, and adding it's proc with flurry the runic hammer goes to 1.43speed, with mongoose it's still at 1.414 but a 2nd proc puts it at 1.38, compairing it to the fel edged which goes to 1.32 is this loss enough of a difference to make up for the 8.5~dmg loss to ss and wf's?, Also I seem to see don't use under speed 2.4 alot, is there a specific reason for that vaule or is it just a general good vaule to tell people to stay slow/slow? | |||||||||||
| #624 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ilmater |
Thanks for the help on Romulo's Poison. That is more what I was expecting. I'm going to try to test out Abacus versus it (IF THE ABACUS WOULD EVER FREAKING DROP!!!!) and I'll let you know what it shows.
I have a few more questions I'm hoping someone can answer: - If I were to get Decapitator, would it increase my dps to use that and put my MG Cleaver in my OH, or should I stick to using MG Cleaver in my MH and use this green lvl 70 fist weapon in my OH (it's 2.6 speed, of course)? - Tornhoof's calculations (50 crit vs. 100 AP vs. 50 hit rating) use a base of 25% crit chance, 2200 AP, and 22% hit chance. WHO HAS THESE STATS??? First off, I'm not sure how an enhancement shaman gets to 2200 AP, and secondly, it seems against your point right after that: ![]()
- Ring Enchants: +2 weapon damage or +4 to all stats? The mats for +4 to all stats are INSANE for how small the buff is, and I'm not sure +2 weapon damage, with flurry, SS, and WF wouldn't add up to more over time. Any thoughts? With slow weapons preferred for Shaman, I would think that would especially de-value this enchant. - What reliable tools can I use to judge my dps? How do you test it? I'm trying to test it using recount and SWS, but they give VASTLY different results, and they're not always different in the same direction (sometimes recount is higher, sometimes it's lower), so it's hard to judge which is right. Thanks for the help, sorry for all the questions. | |||||||||||
| #625 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Rob |
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| #726 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
Disquette et al - is it possible to modify these simulations to model the 2 stormstrike methods? (hit when lit vs save till after WF CD)
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| #727 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | berg |
Edit: Removed some unsupportable data.
Long story short though you do gain dps by waiting for the cooldown to fade. Which sim used is irrelvant I am sure they all have code like this If (ssCD < ssDelay) // ssDelay usually 10.0, ssCD is time since last ss. { //reset ssCD //do the swings. } turn this into if (ssCD < ssDelay) { if (bWfCd == false) // add this line with whatever var they are using to track the wfcd. { //reset cd // do the swings } } and rerun the sims. Then everyone can use whatever sim they prefer. I think they would all show a greater than 1% gain just by waiting for the cooldown to expire every time. Last edited by berg : 07/20/07 at 1:33 PM. | |||||||||||
| #728 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Disquette |
I've lost a bit of steam... the problem with flurry makes me think that it's a pointless exercise. Until I have a good model for that, I'm pretty much disgusted with the whole thing.
I only like models where I can test game against reality and say "look, they match!" edit - Berg - if you have a whole armory, including talents, how well does your sim match actual dps tests? If you know something I don't, I'm all ears. __________________ ----- sig --------------- Discoepfeand - rogue Disquette - shaman | |||||||||||
| #729 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nanahanna |
I'm looking for a few opinions here. There has been an argument between a few members in my guild over twisting GoA and WF totems or keeping WF down in melee heavy groups. One side says the DPS gained from buffing the party by twisting overweighs the gains of a full shock rotation and holding SS for the WF cooldown, the other side says the opposite is more total DPS. I'm leaning more towards a full shock rotation & waiting for the WF cooldown. Anyone dug deep into this?
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| #730 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
I tried this out using some of the macros people had posted last week. I wasn't even in combat, just sitting in Shattrath dropping totems. I gave it about 5 minutes of use before I concluded that:
- it requires a lot of concentration on a button in your UI instead of whats going on the game world, which is probably a lot more important - it used a hell of a lot of mana which means no emergency healing - watching the WF buff on my weapon I noticed that unless you drop the WF totem earlier than the 9 seconds it lasts on the weapon that you ran the risk of the buff running off someone and missing an opportunity for a proc while you were refreshing the totem. If you're late on the drop, or have a decent amount of latency, you could have this happen quite frequently. I didn't give it a lot of testing time, and didn't even try it in combat, but to me it personally felt incredibly clunky and took my attention away from anything other than the macro. Not something I'll be doing in a raid. | |||||||||||
| #731 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Knocksville |
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If you check my armory, note that I have a Shattrath flask on but it is not affecting my stats (I'm logged outside of Hyjal/BT/TK/SSC). __________________ Male Enhancement. Last edited by Knocksville : 07/20/07 at 2:16 PM. | |||||||||||
| #732 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
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| #733 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
I've been totem cycling during raids, it's quite simple with castsequence macro (/castsequence reset=10, Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem). Sustaining shocks is nearly impossible unless you get JoW on your target. You can do a shock once per "rotation" of totems until you've used your first rage, then you have to stick to stormstrike and totems almost exclusively, the 2 minutes feels like an eternity when you're dropping mana that fast. I would definitely say it's worth it to totem cycle, it's a definite dps loss (~6% if you count the GoA you are gaining) but the additional agility for your group outweighs your small margin of dps loss.
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| #734 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Knocksville |
It is only really effective in situations where the following parameters are met:
1. You aren't moving, and if you are, it isn't very far. 2. You have extremely high DPS rogues in your group. 3. You need to burn something down. 4. The fight doesn't punish you for having low mana. I run the SS-WF-GoA macro on Teron Gorefiend where, unless I get ghosted, my job is to stand there and DPS. WWS for Teron in which no DPS classes had to kill constructs. __________________ Male Enhancement. | |||||||||||
| #735 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Kaladian |
Glad to read this because i was planning to make Drakefist MH and S2(2.6) axe OH. It is very hard to think of putting the higher DPS weapon in my OH vs the T2 drakemaw hammer in your MH. Shaman are in the same position hunters were before and somewhat still slower is just always better.
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| #736 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Corripio |
Although it took a bit getting used to, totemweaving has become second nature to me. I totemweave WF & GoA all the time now even in 5 mans. I have the macro set up independent of my SS however and I like it that way. I've also found weaving WF & TA helpful when beginning a fight or to help lower the TPS of my group if they're getting too high.
Although I have a general idea of when I need to recycle the totems, I'm going to try and set up a custom timer using the Ace2 mod Quartz. I already use it as a castbar and GCD timer. Depending on the fight, I'm also finding that I need to be more conservative with my shocks but most of the time, a SR + mana pot is enough to keep me going. Talents to reduce mana cost on totems is a must (Mental quickness & Totemic Focus). My biggest concern right now is sometimes the totem cycling coincides exactly with my SS CD and GCD screws me into either delaying my SS or delaying the totem cycle. I wish totems were on a seperate GCD or had no GCD at all. I hope blizzard doesn't catch wind of this and nerf it. They put WF and GoA on the same totem for a reason. | |||||||||||
| #737 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
I was going to post this exact sentiment earlier but figured I'd be accused of beating a dead horse. They really cannot have intended people to do this type of totem stacking given how the totem elements work.
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| #738 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Krom[Fenris] | ||||||||||||
| #739 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Areus |
I have been toying around with using the Totem Twisting method for my 2 rogue, 1 arms, feral druid group, and they love it. Malan, in order to not have WF expire change the text in the Macro that was posted here to "reset=8" instead of the default 9 that was originally listed in the post.
I did the same trials in Shat that you mentioned and that was an issue that I noticed as well. It really does not take as much concentration to Twist as you think. You get into a mindset after about a week and it becomes natural about knowing when you click the Twisting Macro twice to relay the totems. I ussually run with 8.7k Mana buffed, and in order to sustain this the order I use is WF->GoA -> SS -> FS. By using Flame Shock it lowers the mana requirement cause it is only required every 12 seconds. If I get down to 1/4 mana and have no UR or Pot timer up, I just resort to the totem twist and SS until one timer comes up. If you can convince your paladins to keep JoW up on the Mob, mana will almost never be an issue. | |||||||||||
| #740 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Krom[Fenris] |
I was using a SS->WF->GoA cycle and that was just not working for me since it was dependent on getting that SS off before the rest of the cycle. I think I'll try switching to a WF->GoA->SS cycle, or WF->SS->GoA. Overall tho, I hate doing it. I find it hard to focus on what's going on around me when I'm stressing over making sure the totems go down when they have to. I'm mostly hoping it gets "fixed" so I don't feel guilty for not doing it.
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| #741 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | hyan |
Where would I go about finding the simulator to check what items optimize my dps?
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| #742 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Gwaihir |
The first post of this very thread.
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| #743 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Locovaca |
Im curious as to peoples thoughts on the effect of using a higher dps, fast weapon with another weapon buff in the offhand.
At some point, Slow/Fast(Purple) WF/FT has to be better than Slow/Slow(green) WF/WF. I know the OP says to move to an AH green rather than an epic dagger, but I find it hard to believe that the dps difference cant be made up by sheer DPS on the offhand with Flametongue helping as well. Not to mention the MH will now be unencumbered by off hand WFs... | |||||||||||
| #744 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Gwaihir |
I think we are starting to get to the point of going in endless circles with this post. There are only so many times that someone can do the math on fast offhands with our horrible imbues like FT and rockbiter- It's already been tested in the numerous other threads that gave birth to this one, and the answer is still WF/WF with slow weapons.
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| #745 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Azaranth |
I think people who say "I use Flametongue because my dagger is fast!" don't really understand how Flametongue works.
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| #746 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | oogg |
Thank you all for a sane discussion and an excellent collection of valuable enhancement shaman information.
After reading 30 pages, I have noticed that there is no mention of down shifting. Twisting is mentioned (TA & WF), but I think down shifting is also a useful tactic instead of dying to wipe aggro. Down shifting - Changing weapons/items in the main hand, off hand, or both so as to achieve a reduction in aggro, but not lose the benefits of buffs from talent and item procs. An example is to equip [Blackout Truncheon] in your off hand to dramatically decrease your DPS while still keeping UR and totems down for the group. Not only does it seem like a more realistic solution than suicide-ankh, it maintains the synergy of the raid and allows you to shed hate. Granted, it is at the cost of personal DPS, but you can just as easily up shift back to the slow offhand when your aggro cools off. I realize this is a tactic and not a further exploration or clarification of mechanics or itemization, but it is a tactic only possible by the existence of many of the mechanics that you have theorized and tested. | |||||||||||
| #747 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Dakashi |
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if (t >= SSLastT + SS_COOLDOWN_DURATION) {
if(SPAM_SS || !(t < WFLastT + WF_COOLDOWN_DURATION)) {
Stormstrike();
UpdateStats();
}
}
I used the standard stats that come with the Java sim, and the standard equipment (gladiator OH, Decapitator MH). All I changed was the SS latency to 10.5 for a little more realism. I ran a few sims, and my results were: Spamming SS whenever it's lit: Avg DPS = 772 Waiting on SS until WF is off cooldown: Avg DPS = 791 So, according to Pater's sim (which, by the way, is pretty sweet), waiting for WF to be up before firing SS seems to be a decent DPS increase. Would be interesting to see if this is true in real life as well. __________________ The world can't end today because it's tomorrow in Australia | |||||||||||
| #748 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Corripio |
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| #749 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Rob |
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| #750 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
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| #751 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stander |
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| #752 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
Out of curiosity, does anyone happen to know if dodge/miss/parry/crit/hit/block/glance are all calculated at the same time, or are they all independent of each other?
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| #753 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nemaa |
Back to the totem twisting, I use this macro:
![]() MACRO 16777255 "AGI" INV_Misc_QuestionMark /castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike END -reset=8 helps to put down windfury in time (before the effect goes off from the weapons) but it works only if you don't spam the macro. It resets only after 8 seconds of the last push. -If I can't use stormstrike in time I press "alt" and the hotkey of the macro so I skip a stormstrike and jump to the first spell: Windfury Totem This works quite well for me, I've been using this for like two weeks. My melee group is very happy and it is an upgrade to my party's dps, though my dps goes lower. Of course I can't use totem wtisting on every fight, but there are quite a lot where it's a big boost. Malan: if you keep spamming this macro and you can cast stormstrike every time it has cooled down the wf effect will be always up on the weapons of your group, I tested it and it's working fine. | |||||||||||
| #754 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | syrixx |
I have been looking at the Lootzor links that people have come up with for enhancement shaman, and many of them seem to be wrong to me. ShouldnÂt strength be half the value of attack power? ShouldnÂt agility be .884 compared to 1.0 crit rating(25agi=22.1cr)?
A. 1.0(CR) 0.7(HiR) 0.5(AP) So would that mean also that> .25(STR), 0.884(AGI) ? B. 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating 1.0(CR) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR) So would that mean also that> 0.884*(AGI) ? So putting these on top of each other to make them easier to compare> A. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) .25(STR) 0.5(AP) 0.7(HiR) ??(HaR) B. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR) So which is right, A or B? I could be completely wrong about all of this, but if I am right then could we please update the first page? Lootzor doesnÂt allow me to enter haste rating, is there something else I could use to find gear based on the above values? Thanks in advance! | |||||||||||
| #755 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | david0925 |
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| #756 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Zure |
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| #757 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | david0925 |
Pretty much, after modified by kings, you only need 22 effective agility (24.2 after) to almost reach 25 actual agility. As a result, its easier to view 1 agi as 1 crit rating. If you want to be really precise, its slightly worse
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| #758 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | syrixx |
No I hadn't thought about kings, and yes I got my str/ap backwards. Thank you
__________________
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| #759 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
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The answer is: Attacktable, that means for non special attacks they are all dependent. Attack table - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki | |||||||||||
| #760 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hulkling |
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With the tank threat on that fight, I swapped to rockbiter just to see if it made a difference. While I had windfury up, I hit the threat cap very rapidly and jsut stood there. Rockbiter seemed to work better because not only could I control my threat generation to a much finer degree, but I was able to just keep swinging if for nothing else than the Light heals. Horrible threat cap on that fight, but that is how I crept around it. I believe i swapped my offhand to windfury midfight to get more light procs, but eventually threat was too much, and had to battle ankh just to stay alive (ironic huh), swapped windfury on both weapons, and went balls out till he died without pulling agro. Seemed that maximizing my damage only maximized my threat. Figured I'd throw in my two cents ![]() | |||||||||||
| #761 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Rob |
On VR I hold back shocks and Shamanistic Rage for the first 30 to 60 seconds, then go all-out; last time I popped heroism at like 20%, pulled aggro at 10%, died, ankhed up and finished it off. Besides 1 prot warrior we used 2 ferals, which helps IMO, they have better threat gen when they don't have aggro since they do more white damage. Parse if anyone cares.
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| #762 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Serrano |
First of all I must say reading this thread has been very interesting... all the discussion of weaponspeed now lead to this question:
My weapons at the time are Black Planar Edge (2.7 attackspeed)in the MH and the Season2 Arena weapon (2.6) in the OH. Today I got myself the Mace "Fool´s bane" (2.6) from Illhoof and now I am wondering if the 4 dps deficit to my Black Planar Edge is compensated by the 2.6 attackspeed which better matches my OH so my MH WF proccs are not eaten by my OH. Or is the little slower attackspeed of my MH of no importance and I have leveled blacksmithing for a reason? ![]() Please let me know what you think... | |||||||||||
| #763 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Zure |
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a) sub in some arcane resist gear, b) periodically drop a few heals (terokk's gavel!), c) twist WF/Tranq Air and continue to use optimal weapon imbues? This way you add some extra value while keeping your dps at its maximum. | |||||||||||
| #764 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | panny |
On VR I:
1) Pull aggro 2) Put on my shield 3) Dodge, dodge (double Mongoose) 4) Eat the knockback for a free deaggro! | |||||||||||
| #765 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aeolian |
I've managed to do that with Gruul, but not Void Reaver, yet. Just stopped attacking on Gruul when I reached 2nd aggro, dodged 4 hateful strikes before the next warrior in line caught up. Void Reaver I usually just "vanish" and keep going after. Our Paladins are pretty good about rebuffs, especially Salvation on myself and our Elemental shaman.
__________________ ~ Aeo - Level 70 Draenei Shaman ~
~ Guild: Reclaimed / Realm: Skywall ~ | |||||||||||
| #766 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
Why would you want salvation after battle rezzing? Best thing to give you at that point is Might and Wisdom so you can catch up in DPS a bit.
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| #767 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Lujaar |
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This is one of those problems that can't be properly simulated though, because sims don't screw up. They react much faster than human players do. Actually gaining DPS by this method would probably take some practice. If you delay hitting WF waiting for the cooldown, and then a white hit procs WF and puts you back on cooldown before you can get the stormstrike in, you're going to do less DPS than you would have if you'd just hit SS as soon as it was up. I've been playing around with using a WF monitor and delaying stormstrike, and I like it so far, but individual results may vary. | |||||||||||
| #768 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Vice |
Has anyone else tried out the Cystalforged Trinket from the Ogri'la Rep?
I think its a good trinket, but after reading all of this for the first time, Im really not sure how it stacks up to the other trinkets listed which I dont really have access to before the other melee classes in my raids ![]() Im definately a sucker for a fast offhand as well...gotta change that asap. Crystalforged Trinket - 1min CD. | |||||||||||
| #769 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aett |
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![]() I think there is a line between the loss of SS dps caused by waiting and the increased DPS from more windfury procs due to guaranteeing that the SS has a chance to proc windfury. 1.5 seconds seems like a good compromise. | |||||||||||
| #770 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Galeyra |
Concerning hit
Hello, I've been reading here in these Forums for some days now. That's because I'm a Resto-specced Shaman and i want to try out Enhancement, and here is so much information about it.
Now my questions regarding hit and miss: I got many different views about it, some say 100 hit rating is enough, some would swear going to the cap of 261 is best.(I'm not sure if its really the cap, this is what i've been reading here most). So could you clarify what hit percentage is now really the cap and if it's worth to reach it? an example one many i can't explain to myself: It's from WWS, an i always see high miss percentages, i'm wondered about WWS link looking into his armory(Link), he got around 10% hit from gear and 9%from talents so he should miss aroung 5-6% on white hits, depending on how much you need to reach the cap. on yellow he should miss at all from what i've heard. but if you look at WWS his white hits miss around 17% and wf at 8,7% and SS 1,8%. How do you explain that? Does void reaver dodging counts as "miss" there? Please explain me this. Note that this high miss percentages appear on almost every enhancement shaman i see on WWS. and sorry for the bad english. | |||||||||||
| #771 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aett |
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I've recently dropped about 90 hit rating and haven't looked back. Sadly some bad gearing choices were made before I tried this out. | |||||||||||
| #772 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Khlysti |
For quite a while now we have worked with the concept that 'small haste effects which take weapon speed from just above 1.5 to just below it will decrease dps'. This is due to interaction with the WF cd timer, and was shown via sims, but I have not seen any ingame tests done to see the actual effects.
So, out I went to do a bit of testing on blasted lands mobs. I used 2 'Sergeant's Warhammer of ***' (2.1 speed, and level 12 greens, hence low dps numbers) as the weapons and first used 104 haste rating, the second set was done with 73 haste rating. The 104 haste rating set had a ring and trinket slot empty, the 73 had some green items in them to make sure no AP was lost when the Band of Devastion was removed. I also did not use my helm, as it has a haste proc meta gem. Total change in stats between the 2 sets - first set has 31 more haste rating than second, all other stats equal. First set, 42 minutes 8 seconds (2528 seconds), damage done: 1000054 of which 59.5% white, 40.5% WF. Speed with flurry = 1.47. Total dps: 396 of which white dps: 235, wf: 160 Second set, 43 minutes 17 seconds (2597 seconds), damage done: 1000194 of which 59.3% white, 40.7% WF. Speed with flurry = 1.51. Total dps: 385 of which white dps: 228, wf: 157 Now clearly, as we all know, just dealing 2 million total damage is not enough to really conclude anything with the extreme randomness of shaman dps, however this does seem to show one thing, even when crossing the '1.5 speed barrier' with a small gain in haste rating we still see a gain in dps. WF dps was close enough to call as no change, clearly not the drastic loss the sims had lead us to believe, and if there is a loss it would then need a less than 31 haste rating change, basically a value so small as to be of no consequence (smallest single haste gain I could find was 26 rating). The white damage however is clearly boosted by the presence of the haste, a 3.07% gain in white dps from 2.95% of haste looks to be a correct value. Total dps went up by 2.86% when going from 1.51 speed (flurried) to 1.47 speed (flurried). It would be nice to see some more data collected, but from this atleast it seems there is no point at which haste is bad at all, and it is infact a very strong stat for us no matter what our current flurried weapon speed is. | |||||||||||
| #773 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Disquette |
Heya Khlysti, thanks for the great testing!
I personally think that lag has something to do with weapon hit times, so it might be a slightly better test to have something like 1.4 flurried speed versus 1.65 flurried speed. In any case, those results are very interesting - thank you for them. __________________ ----- sig --------------- Discoepfeand - rogue Disquette - shaman | |||||||||||
| #774 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Roonie |
Offhand choices.
Hello everyone =)
I was wondering if there was any reason I should get the [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] over the [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler] for my new OH. I only ask because the axe gets mentioned alot, and the mace does not - someone please enlighten me if there is actually a reason that the axe is better? ![]() Also I would appreciate it if someone could have a look at my armoury page and see if I'm doing anything wrong? Personally i'm pretty happy currently - Bare in mind we're about to kill Gruul, So thats about the the level of loot I have access to. Planning on swapping out +Hit trinket with the Bloodlust Broach soon, and also the Hourglass trinket with the Dragonspine Trophy when nubcakes drops it. Currently also grinding heroic mana tombs for the uber totem. Thank you all in advance! http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...aenor&n=Roonie Here's me!! please don't be too mean!! ~Hides~ | |||||||||||
| #775 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Kaubel |
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| #826 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob | ||||||||||||
| #827 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #828 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob |
Last edited by Rob : 07/25/07 at 8:10 PM. Reason: explain rationale, fix item links | |||||||||||
| #829 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ketrew | ||||||||||||
| #830 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob | ||||||||||||
| #831 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sintor | ||||||||||||
| #832 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob | ||||||||||||
| #833 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sebudai | ||||||||||||
| #834 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sintor | ||||||||||||
| #835 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob | ||||||||||||
| #836 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Sintor |
Last edited by Sintor : 07/25/07 at 9:52 PM. | |||||||||||
| #837 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ketrew | ||||||||||||
| #838 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Last edited by Malan : 07/25/07 at 10:56 PM. | |||||||||||
| #839 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Azide | ||||||||||||
| #840 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis | ||||||||||||
| #841 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob |
Last edited by Rob : 07/26/07 at 2:23 AM. | |||||||||||
| #842 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis | ||||||||||||
| #843 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
Last edited by Stigmata : 07/26/07 at 3:58 AM. | |||||||||||
| #844 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Shalas | ||||||||||||
| #845 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Celetroll | ||||||||||||
| #846 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Disquette | ||||||||||||
| #847 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Nemaa |
Last edited by Nemaa : 07/26/07 at 8:08 AM. | |||||||||||
| #848 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nemaa | ||||||||||||
| #849 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aett | ||||||||||||
| #850 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malus | ||||||||||||
| #926 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
Was the Ashtongue talisman nerfed recently? I got it a few days ago and every WWS I look at it is hovering around 50% uptime. Of course if I managed to get a Stormstrike off before the buff expired it wouldn't accurately display on WWS, but I find it hard to believe with latency it is possible to keep Power Surge up.
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| #927 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
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Open flurrymeter.lua and change: ![]() if (arg1 == "You gain Flurry.") then ![]() if (arg1 == "You gain Power Surge.") then ![]() if (arg1 == "Flurry fades from you.") then ![]() if (arg1 == "Power Surge fades from you.") then | |||||||||||
| #928 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
Me spamming stormstrike for 15 minutes : http://i10.tinypic.com/4ptaqex.jpg
I changed the lines like you had said and I'm assuming that the top right % = surge uptime? | |||||||||||
| #929 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
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| #930 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nazgull |
question about weapon speed
hello guys 1st time i see this kind of forum and for long time i am searching for shaman melee advices or so
anyway i use dragonstrike as mh and netherzim on oh (supremus weapon) i wanted to know if this combo is fine as for the 3 sec wf c/d and ofc if its worth it to lose the stats on other off hands like the 1 from nejntus thanks alot ! | |||||||||||
| #931 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ruzia |
Read the OP thoroughly and maybe some pages of the discussion and you should have your answer.
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| #932 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nazgull | ||||||||||||
| #933 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | T.K. |
Sup all. I've read all this thread from start to end. Read all the Flurry thread. Read the other Itemization thread and so on. All the stuff about gems and so i'm going forward to it, like going for the crit/str gems into yellow slots, str gems into red and so on...
I'm currently farming the S2 arena weapon to use as off-hand. Trying to get the T4 chest and shoulder. I really think i understand and know all the mechanics that was discussed in here forth and back into all these threads. What i can't undestand is my actual DPS in the current level of gear i am. I really think i'm doing low damage, with the level of gear i am. My guild have some nice DPS, that hit hard and constantly, mantaining high DPS most raids. (Well geared rogues, mages, locks for our current level). We are at the moment wiping on 50% on Morogrim and already killed loot Reaver and trying Al'ar. Right now when i'm typing this my guild is trying Morogrim, but they don't allow me in, as our ret pally is already in. They aways bring to the raid either of us, and no way both can be in, as they think that would be most...hybrid. They really think my DPS is higher and my buffs are higher than his buffs, but they left him in to tank the murlocs and so. I Still needed the loots from it, but as we didn't killed it yet, i can't go in until we perfect the strategy. That said, i want to post some screenies to show u guys my performance at Gruul and Mag. Those fights i was using a Fool's bane and now i'm already with my Dragonmaw, as u can check on my armory. i'm going for screenshots because is the only thing i got, if it's not allowed or unpleasant because of the higher bandwith i apologize in advance. I'd like to know what your opinions would be, if that level of DPS is normal or not, as i'm kinda lost as i saw people reporting higher numbers. The Mag fight i had clicking duty as i do all the time. Gruul Fight ------ Total DPS http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...totalgruul.jpg Total Damage http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...totalGruul.jpg Heal performed http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...totalgruul.jpg My DPS total Breakdown http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...nGruulRyla.jpg Warrior DPS Breakdown into my group http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ulWarrior1.jpg Rogue 1 DPS Breakdown into my group http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ruulRogue1.jpg Rogue 2 DPS Breakdown into my group http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ruulRogue2.jpg Rogue 3 dPS Breakdown into my group http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ruulRogue3.jpg Mag Fight --------- Full Damage Mag http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u.../Danototal.jpg DPS Mag http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...0/Dpstotal.jpg Here's my armory so u can quick check it. I know my trinkets sucks and i'm trying to get the badges for the Bloodlust and drop the Hourglass. My rings are not the best for the level, but couldn't get the unique prince drop ring we got. The Armory Sorry again for all the screenshots, but was all i had from these fights... Last edited by T.K. : 07/31/07 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Trying to get a sequence into my script... | |||||||||||
| #934 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Having the Runic OH with a 2.7 MH is going to mess up your DPS a little bit regardless since its going to inevitably eat some WF cooldowns. You can do a bit better on a few items - for example on your Rip Flayer leggings you put in a Blue gem in order to get a +6 Stam socket bonus. That bonus isn't helping you DPS any harder though, and you'd likely be better off putting in a full DPS gem instead. On your gloves you skipped the +3 crit rating bonus though, which is worth getting since Crit Rating and Str are equivalent AEP values before BoK is taken into account, but the crit rating from the gem/bonus would likely make up for it.
Given your weapons and gear I'd say you should be doing closer to 600 DPS on Gruul, not 470. I was doing 400 DPS at the start of KZ in blues in comparison. The arena axe will give you a huge boost, and so would getting the Totem of Astral Winds. On your gruul fight it looks like you cast Healing Wave at least 3 times, maybe as many as 6. Thats a minimum of 12 seconds not DPSing, and as high as 18 seconds. That accounts for part of your DPS drop, and that's also time that you are not providing Unleashed Rage to your group. On Mag you need to fight to not be a clicker. Ranged are able to stand right at the cube and DPS full time, putting a melee on it makes you pretty worthless in Phase 2. On a wholly separate note, try to arrange your post into some more logical paragraphs next time. (I realize you said you're in a raid right now) Its really hard to read when ever line is separated out like that. | |||||||||||
| #935 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | T.K. |
Thankx for the input and i'll try to tell why of some stuff i'm using:
First of all, the Runic Hammer was the best available offhand i could get with a decent level. I sure think it's too fast for what i want, but didn't want to get a 2.6 speed weapon as although the number of eaten procs will be fewer, the DPS dif won't be THAT great. So i forged it and working slooooowwwwlly onto my arena S2 weapon. The blue gem into my pants where socketed because i had so little HP, and healer kept complaining that in fights like VR they had to zomghealhim!! so much that was a pain in the ass. So i stick it in to be on 9-9.5k HP buffed on raids. I understand i could have some better dps-oriented gem into that slot, but put that on purpose. The gloves, if i'm not mistaken and didn't forgot anything, had the best rating into lootzor.com with double str gems. One of those slots is blue, so might be it...dunno. I rerolled from my holy pally to this shammy, so i might be a little juiced into healing when things go a bit mad. I like to top myself most of the time too so i can save some healer's mana. At Mag, most of the time i'm clicking on cube because other retards can't click a floating cube in front of them at the right time O.o And our ranged DPS aways complains that they can't stop DPSing to click it. So most of the time we have rogues, DPS warrs or me clicking it. But we do have ranged clicking too...go figures... I basically did all this reply because i expected a dPS closer to what u said, 600, and i'm continualy getting closer to 450-485 range. Really dunno what i'm doing wrong. | |||||||||||
| #936 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
Since you're taking a dps spot, plus buffing your dps group, you need to focus on dps. Healing should be something you do in emergency situations or at times when you can't get in melee range. Every time you leave Mag to go click, that's time your group isn't getting unleashed rage.
On Void Reaver, it's possible for you to take next to no damage at all. Stand in pounding range, then back out right before the pounding, then step back in so you aren't in arcane ball range. Deadly boss mods is great if you need decent timers. You should try to pick up the 2p t4 and a helm with a meta gem. I'd suggest chest and shoulders for t4, since they're your weakest slots. That combined with the upgrades you already have planned should put you in a great spot for gear. The 2.6 offhand is a must, missing main hand windfury crits is devastating to your dps. Also, if you're crazy like me you can drop your points in resto and put them in elemental. | |||||||||||
| #937 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | panny |
Only thing that really catches my eyes is that your pants are unenchanted (an easy 40 AP/10 crit rating). Are you keeping behind the target, making sure you have maximum contact time, using cooldowns appropriately (damage windows), and making sure you have the right buffs (Battle Shout, SoE, Salv, etc) maintained throughout the fight?
On a different note, after some recent upgrades (Dragonspine/Merciless Offhand), I'm having some real issues with threat, especially on trash. Part of it can be explained with half the raid using outdated threat meter mods, but not all. How do you deal with the fact that you can get this kind of uncontrollable burst at almost any time: ![]() 11:08'52.140 Magtheridon's Blast Nova hits Hortez for 2407 Fire damage 156 Hortez's Melee crits Magtheridon for 2350 468 Hortez's Earth Shock hits Magtheridon for 1655 Nature damage 890 Hortez's Improved Leader of the Pack heals Hortez for 462 11:08'53.171 Hortez gains 12 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V 250 Hortez gains Flurry 281 Hortez's Windfury Attack crits Magtheridon for 3593 281 Hortez's Windfury Attack crits Magtheridon for 4171 546 Hortez's Melee hits Magtheridon for 501 (glancing) 11:08'54.406 Hortez's Melee crits Magtheridon for 2196 How do you better geared Shaman deal with threat? | |||||||||||
| #938 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shadow4089 |
here is a quick question. Shammies can use 2H weapons obv if they spec it, but how useful it is compared to duel weapons? With WF proc better with slow weapons and stuff, whats the vs. between the two or is it just more of a leveling up spec?
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| #939 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
Salv. Always. If you can only get 1 pally buff it should be salv, on any fight where threat matters anyway which is just about all of them. If you're getting salv and still having consistent aggro trouble you'll probably need to look at what your tanks are doing(or not doing).
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| #940 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | seminarca |
Druid threat scales well with AP and crit. Warriors will stack block value for threat.
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DW for PvE dps, 2h for PvP and playing around. I'm leveling a Shaman alt, and quite enjoyed the move from 2h to DW, stuff just dies so much quicker. Flurry uptime seems better (though I could be imagining it) and WF procs more consistently. 2h was way to bursty, like 2 shotting one mob then slogging at the next for 45 seconds. DW is also bursty, but not quite as much. | |||||||||||
| #941 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | panny |
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| #942 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | seminarca | ||||||||||||
| #943 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | T.K. |
At Mag i have no agro issue at all. My gear is not that great, but we got 2 bears tanking first adds, so i just pop Heroism as soon as they hit em and i can go all out from that.
My legs enchant is already bought and into my bag. I really don't like those legs, so i didn't want to use the enchant on them, cause is aways was like "Today i get x legs" and kept like that for 10 days by now...meh, think i should enchant it anyway. Was hoping for a Skulker or even my T4 legs anyway... I already have the T4 head slot into my bag, just waiting to change it once i get another set part. About the nuke, i aways look for mob back to nuke and try to keep aways at range the fastest i can. Maybe it was just the clicking duty at that time...but i can't understand why a so low DPS on Gruul...i do the shock rotation everytime, SS and so on...dunno why is that. So u guys think my off-hand is eating that much procs and that's why my dps is so low? Forgot the VR arcane balls. I said to my Raid leader i was going to do that move waving and he said i wouldn't be able to avoid all them and could kill all melees, so he obliged me to stay absorving all the pouncings. Last edited by T.K. : 07/31/07 at 4:03 AM. Reason: VR balls O.o | |||||||||||
| #944 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Bai |
Greetings.
Finally got around to setting up my EJ profile tonight, so I only thought it proper to finally poke my head up from behind the fence and greet all my fellow Shamans-in-Arms. =)
I have been reading the boards for some time now, and have been very interested in the math and formulas everyone has been bringing to the table in helping to understand our wonky-style of DPS. As some (to most) have been helpful, to the ideas and clearifications that I myself have come to the realizations of now; I am thankful. Keep doing the hard stuff so I can just lead my raids, and throw my farm animals at bosses. Mushy stuff aside - I bring myself in light to the Shaman discussions to do my best to help further the understanding, and growth of our class. Do what you will with me. *bows* And on that note: I apologize in advance for my trinkets being total suck. There are probably 4 DSTs on Lothar as a whole, and Heroics are a thing of the past which has me snuffed out shy 3 Badges for the Brooch. (Soon my darling...soon!) note: All you leather Shamans make me giggle. ^_^* ps: WTB Blizzard fixing Epic Gems showing up in the armory. /sigh --- Now, to acctually be on topic. I pose this question that I may not have understood if it was discussed in earlier posts. But it is something that I feel kind of goes against normal melee fuction. Slower Offhand than Mainhand? ei; Dragonstike MH - Syphon of the Ninnies OH? (Mainly; How does this effect Windfury? Swing Timers? Flurry?) | |||||||||||
| #945 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | PaPa |
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However, I'm currently using the Drakefist Hammer in my main hand, and I'm curious to know whether or not I'll get a higher overall DPS out of using one of the blue 71.7 dps heroic/battleground OHs than a Runic Hammer. Will the slower speed compensate for the 10 less dps on the weapon and the loss of AP? I don't really want to spend any more time or gold on something that could turn out to hurt my DPS. :/ | |||||||||||
| #946 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
I was using Dragonmaw and Runic hammer up until i got netherbane off Al'ar, so I wouldnt worry to much about using it.
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| #947 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
@bai - Just out of curiosity, why did you put 2 points in convection instead of imp ankh?
@TK - There's a baddass leather feral druid legs that drops from the final boss of heroic mana tombs. If you're farming for your WF totem you might as well go for it. I keep trying to justify taking them off (my only leather piece), but I probably won't replace them till T6. | |||||||||||
| #948 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Myrhar |
i posted a comment about the wrath darkmoon card then found oodles of information more than i had thought of. My biggest problem with it is that you have to not crit in order to crit....what class/spec/living being wants that? now if only we could somehow fuse the crusade card and the wrath card so there was one card that increased crit rating with each crit, stacking x amount of times over x seconds and crits renew the effect and spell and melee crit is effected individually. it would scream enh shammy. oh to dream....
on a side note thanks to all of you for the excellent work of pulling all this together. always nice to know others actually think about how they play and how to play better after playing with so many noob filled pugs. Last edited by Myrhar : 07/31/07 at 2:52 PM. Reason: edited to not be redundant | |||||||||||
| #949 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Ketrew |
PvP for Enhancement Shaman
*EDIT* I've moved this to the PVP thread
I'm just starting to use my Shaman for an arena team and some of my team mates are asking me to use a two handed weapon. I'd love some feedback on Two handers Vs. Duel Wield when its comes to pvp. Tenion Shaman - Silver Hand Last edited by Ketrew : 07/31/07 at 5:55 PM. | |||||||||||
| #950 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Unaz |
Two handers are good for bursting down people with healers. I usually start out with a two hander, and then switch to DW when there are no more healers.
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| #1101 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | aroma |
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So the actual AP bonus on your OH is only half the amount you were using. Sorry if i misunderstood your post, might as well be the case. | |||||||||||
| #1102 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Lujaar |
Well, if you only have windfury on a single one-handed weapon, it won't have a 20% proc rate either. The hidden cooldown will still render one swing after every WF proc unable to proc windfury, which will give you a 16.6% proc rate.
Mainhand Proc Rates: 2.6/2.6 WF/WF vs 2.6/whatever WF/FT: Assume permanent flurry and no other haste buffs, so those Merciless Gladiator's Lolarenaweapons drop to 2.0 speed. WF/WF: If each hand has a 36% proc rate, each hand will proc WF every 2.77 eligible swings. Figure in 1 mainhand swing locked out from a mainhand proc, and 1-2 mainhand swings locked out from an offhand proc, and you have your mainhand proccing windfury once every 4.77-5.77 swings. WF/FT: WF procs every 5 eligible swings, and you lose 1 swing per proc to lockout. WF procs every 6 swings. Theoretically, enchanting WF on a slow offhand should actually increase your mainhand proc rate, although anyone who can prove my math is bad is welcome to do so. | |||||||||||
| #1103 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rizelu |
There are lots of pages here and lots of discussing going on so...
What are the values I should put into pawn? and what is intellect / stamina / spirit in this all? Person #1: 2500HP Person #2: 2800HP Both get hit for 40-80 (average) and 90-120(crit) Rest of the stats is all the same. Won't the person with the most HP be able to deal more dps as he will most likely stand longer? Intellect and spirit seem useless damage-wise unless you count in the amount of heals you can squeeze in, the longer you stand... the more damage you are able to produce. If I am dead, I can't do dps .. simple lol. | |||||||||||
| #1104 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ujin |
I think you are right in that WF/WF will be more procs of windfury in a given amount of time compared to single WF, but you are sill stealing MH procs every once in a while and lowering the average damage of WF by a lot, so its hard to judge without detailed theorycrafting if you can make up the lost damage by less WF procs with FT on offhand if you are increasing the average damage done by WF and adding in the damage done by the FT proc on your offhand.
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| #1105 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | aroma |
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Stamina is a stat to consider when you're way below 10k hp fully buffed, but after that point it just isn't important anymore. Bosses will onehit you regardless of your HP, and anything else has to be healed anyway. Your manapool works simmilarly. All you need is a manapool that is sufficient to keep up constant shocking and also big enough so that your manaregen with SR is never wasted. Beyond that point you don't have to care abaout intellect anymore. Spirit as a stat is worthless for every shaman, if you need manaregen get items with mp5, but as an enhancement shaman you should always be able to reg enough mana with SR alone. | |||||||||||
| #1106 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
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-How WF is effected by both avoidance and mitigation from armor assuming level 73 MoB with 5 Sunders I assume a 23% damage reduction. That is more than fair to FT, considering most people are claiming an average of 20% damage reduction after sunders. I included dodges, so there goes the the avoidance issue. -Flametongue ignoring armor My sim does indeed use melee mitigation through armor, and allows flametongue not to be affected by armor. -Flametongue with Nature's Guidance +3% spell hit I modeled this with ZERO resists. I essentially gave natures guidance a 16% spell hit boost. If that's not more than fair to flame tongue, I don't know what is. -Flametongue doesn't proc when you miss, possibly leading to hit rating gaining some importance in a WF/FT set up? I don't know And guess what - the sim doesn't proc FT when the attack is avoided or missed. Pretty neat, eh? ;-) -Flametongue benefits from any fire debuffs stacked on the MoB Fair point, but I think the nature's guidance part more than covers this. However, to be complete, I just looked at the FT number, divided by 1.13 (16% resists, but 13% after natures guidance), multiplied by 109% (imp scorch), then multiplied by 110% (Curse of elements), then multiplied by 105% (crit rate), and the difference comes out to be 7dps. So, Those two numbers should be closer by 7dps due to resistances, nature's guidance, curse of elements. -Flametongue always scales well with haste whereas too much can negatively effect WF Another good point. I have no answer to this other than to say, it's a corner case most of the time, and the simulation I used took it into account. It'd be different for a person with lots of passive haste or item-based haste procs. My model never had the OH (with WF) dropping below 1.5 speed. -Stormstrike DPS, higher with WF/WF Slow/Slow, but by how much? The model shows takes this into account too. I use a 10.5 second delay between stormstrikes due to an assumed lag. -Could using WF/FT versus WF/WF possibly land a net increase in MH WF procs, which could help scew the results in favor of FT? (I know you get a net loss in WF proc rate, but would you gain more overall MH procs that if the OH was "stealing" some of those procs, resulting in a bit more MH WF dps?) This is all covered in the simulation, and was part of the testing. Here's the breakdown since you're interested: WF Dps Slow/Fast: 124 WF MH Seconds per Proc: 7.81 WF Dps Slow/Slow: 128 WF MH Seconds per Proc: 8.06 (if you caught an early revision of this, i copy/pasted the wrong numbers from excel, hence the stealth edit) So, even though the OH was stealing some, the increased flurry uptime, and the 20% to 36% jump was enough so that you had *more* MH WF in the same time period when OH'ing a WF weapon. ================ So, does this cover most of the concerns to the point where you consider it to be closer to reality than you originally thought? Last edited by Disquette : 08/05/07 at 5:48 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1107 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
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| #1108 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | aroma | ||||||||||||
| #1109 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rescorla |
Assuming those values above are correct, when the denominators are equalized the values are pretty close. The variable that needs to be determined is how many weapon swings are required to generate a proc. That number will vary based on OH weapon speed, haste, etc. Take that number and multiply it by 3.74, and then compare it to 22.33. For example, if it takes 6 autoattack swings to generate an OH WF proc, then you end up with FT having a value of 22.44 (6 * 3.74) compared to 22.33 for WF.
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| #1110 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
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However, if you had your current stats, but had 10 000 AP instead of your current AP, FT would almost definitely win out. I really wish I had my updated sim available though, because I don't remember what I changed in it between 2 months ago and today. I know the today version is more correct, but crushing my laptop with a truck prevents me from seeing how much of a difference it makes. | |||||||||||
| #1111 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | aroma |
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the AP bonus for the OH WF procc gives an increase of 11.16 DPS, not damage itself, so for a 2.6 OH you would actually get 29.016 extra damage per procc, which is most likely way ahead of the increase FT gets from the same amount of AP. | |||||||||||
| #1112 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rescorla |
I just saw your edited values:
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| #1113 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
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This is one reason I wrote my sim - it's easy for me to get confused when I'm not building everything and checking it against in-game values. I make careless mistakes sometimes when I don't have a reference like in-game-testing upon which I can verify and correct. | |||||||||||
| #1114 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | aroma | ||||||||||||
| #1115 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aramund |
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Also, the (minimal) loss of Flurry and UR up time from losing the extra attacks that WF provides would almost certainly be more than made up for by the increased number of crits / unit of time being landed by the now (much) faster OH weapon. | |||||||||||
| #1116 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aramund |
Forgive me if I missed of those items in your simulation. As I stated in my first post I don't claim to be an expert and its entirely possible I didn't fully understand the original model enough to notice some of those variables being factored in. I'm just trying to do my part to help.
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| #1117 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
No time yet to put the FT/FB changes into my code, just some ideas...
1.) UR uptime isn't affected much at all, we're 95% uptime anyway 2.) Flurry uptime is a slightly more complicated case but not that much different expected wf proc time while flurried is: wspeedflurry/0.2 (for mh only), for a 2.6 weapon this is 10s, so the wf cd percentage is actually 1- (10/13), which is 23%. so we actually can assume that 2*(1-(1-0.2)^((10/13)*3)) = 0.80 swings are expected to be added to our flurry uptime calculation, for DW the value for two 2.6s weapons would be: 1.16 for 35% crit the difference in uptime is: 85% vs. 87% 3.) Stormstrike as a haste factor is a difference of maybe 10% between a fast weapon and a slow weapon Anyway I can say more about this, as soon as I've modelled it into my code. | |||||||||||
| #1118 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malevolencia |
Does shadow priests Misery debuff (5% spell damage while dots are ticking) also effect FT? If so another 1.05 multiplier is needed.
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| #1119 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | bloodwitch |
crusader is not better than potency in any way shape or form at level 70. Crusader is equivalent to a +15str permachant in terms of autoattacks. unlike a warrior, we cannot artificially pump up the proc rate by spamming instant attacks since we only have the one, and its on a cooldown. in all the testing and parsing i did (both real combat, and blasted lands servants), with ss spamming and WF buffs up, crusader only barely managed to match the constant +20str when it got ungodly proc strings in a row, and that happened only very rarely.
potency > crusader. | |||||||||||
| #1120 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
Sorry, but you're wrong on that one. The calculations for potency vs crusader were figured out ages ago. You're not suddenly discovering something we didn't know.
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| #1121 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Malevolencia |
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Assuming optimal (unrealistic) 20% proc rate, that's 11.16/5 = 2.226dps added over time. FT is 3.74 dmg * 1.05 (shadow priest misery) giving 3.927 dmg per swing. Assuming a fast offhand of 1.4spd (I actually never looked at fast OHs, do they go faster than this? if so FT is better..) that's 3.927dmg every 1.4sec or 2.805 dps. FT seems to scale significantly better then (at the 35% crit rate)? Any other factors that have yet to be included? EDIT: Also -target armor items would be useless with FT, while WF would scale nicely from them. Last edited by Malevolencia : 08/05/07 at 10:11 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1122 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Freyalis |
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Like Malan said the math has been worked out before and you should be able to find it easily with a search. | |||||||||||
| #1123 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yavon |
Currently using a Dragonstrike in MH working on Dragonspine. I want go for a haste type of build. Would I need to increase hit rating to max (24.5 I think) to max my dps output. Or does current scale for str crit hit rating hold true for shamans that want to value haste as well?
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| #1124 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin |
full stack of improved scorch debuff gives 15% bonus :-)
And BTW for OH WF it's 11.16*speed dmg/proc | |||||||||||
| #1125 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Lujaar |
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I'm not just saying you should get a windfury proc every 4.77-5.77 mainhand swings; I'm saying you should get a mainhand windfury proc every 4.77-5.77 mainhand swings. (You'll also get offhand procs at about the same rate, but that's not what I'm interested in.) To put it another way, you will see more than twice as many total WF procs using slow/slow WF/WF compared to WF/FT, and half of those procs will be mainhand. | |||||||||||
| #1351 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
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![]() I'd like to get some more graphics up like the one I made to illustrate the windfury cooldown lockout for a fast OH with slow MH. Any thoughts on what concepts would be good to illustrate? | |||||||||||
| #1352 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin |
Small summary on my addons.
WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns. USE /wf3sec ![]() MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans. USE - /mb ![]() MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window. USE - /mf ![]() WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers. USE - /wftotem ![]() | |||||||||||
| #1353 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Kagu |
Amazing thread you guys have here with a lot of interesting theories.
I've been reading through many of these pages but I'd like to know your all opinions on whether the 4 piece t5 is worth getting (no access to chest just yet) by using the legs and shoulders. I myself find the shoulders to be a terrible piece and the legs to be mediocre with a lot of the item level used on stats. Having Vashj finally drop a shaman token after much saving of dkp I have been able to obtain the helm and I just wondered how you guys would weigh the 5% flurry speed against the possible 1 to 2% crit and 30 or 40 ap from the other possible items I have available to me. | |||||||||||
| #1354 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin |
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| #1355 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | berg |
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As far as the value of this stat, it varies from boss to boss which is an annoying answer but it is true. From a distance though it is easy to see how this is a good stat for us as it directly helps roughly 90% of our damage, which cannot be said for anything else except for AP/Str. | |||||||||||
| #1356 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
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The only time you should even consider putting FT-totem down is if you have to drop Tranquil Air. Given proper raid buffs (specifically blessing of salv) that should never happen. WF totem is a 20% chance for an extra attack with more AP, flametounge will probably never be able to compete with that for damage due to WF's scaling nature. | |||||||||||
| #1357 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Wichtel |
I do know that it sucks right now. But i was talking about FT with the new mental quickness and failed to mention that. We will have up to 700 spell damage and if FT-Totem scales with it i think GoA + FT could be better than wf alone.
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| #1358 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Flametongue Totem does not scale with spell damage. If it did, yah it'd probably be pretty good. But it doesn't.
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| #1359 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nikiyaki |
Hey, I've been a reader of this thread since it began and have been shifting my gear to match the conclusions drawn by data as it becomes available, usually with very positive results. I feel my dps has been steadily increasing over time as I acquire and change gear and so I was happy with this.
However I have some questions I'd like to ask now and I think after browsing they haven't been asked so I apologize if they have. My first question is, when I first start attacking a mob, for the first 30-60 seconds my dps is very good, and very high, but after that point, even though I don't actually do anything different, it starts to sort of dwindle, sometimes down by as much as 200 on my meter(!) Is this the effect of my OH starting to steal WFs? (I have a 2.6 offhand) I do have the Invigorate set bonus, should I use the proc every now and then to attempt to reset the WFs back to my main hand? Or, is this decline simply natural for our dps in some way? I generally try to pop trinkets/minor cooldowns early so I can use them as many times as possible during a battle. Secondly, is there anything really particularly good for ekeing out the most dps possible? I use a WF cooldown mod to cast SS at the best time, rotate ES and FS, use haste potions, and pop my trinkets with my shamanistic rage. Does anyone know if mana potting if I start to have mana troubles to continue shocking be more dps than the haste potion? I have the suspicion it would but, I don't really want to start chugging potions to test it out, and testing during raids is too irregular. So I'm curious if anyone has any personal experience with that. On the same note is it better to drink a wisdom elixir for the mana regen over a fortitude elixir for the health? 1920 mana over a 10min fight or, roughly 4-6 more shocks. I use all other buffs I can think of (agility elixir or flask/20str food/sometimes scrolls). Are there any other little tricks like that you can use to squeeze out the last drop of damage from your shaman? I've been playing a shaman for nearly two years now but an enhance one for only about 5 months - I'm sure there's little things I've missed picking up. I'm really, really desperate to increase my damage, it's generally around 800-900 dps (on average, on most fights) at the moment with my set-up (On Armory here) and I need to increase that at least 100 I think to be a consistent raider for my guild. (Which is in BT/Hyjal) | |||||||||||
| #1360 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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Otherwise, um.. You have a ton of hit rating. Read the formula and see if any of your banked gear is superior to your stuff with a ton of hit rating (kara ring/moroes cloak for example). | |||||||||||
| #1361 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ruzia |
Hedin,
I hate to be overly picky about things, but is there any way (perhaps by editing of lua files) I could change the text on the timer bars? I currently use WFCooldown which is a small, unobtrusive yellow bar with just "wf" in the middle of it as opposed to "WF 3 sec cooldown" on yours. Also concerning the melee stats window, is it possible to just show weapon speed? I think that may have been asked before but I'm not sure. I'd like to use the various facets of your addon but I'm kind of particular about my UI =/ | |||||||||||
| #1362 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Kreltok |
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If I'm not mistaken, FT imbue and totem both scale with + damage, but with FT totem its the +damage of the person with the buff on their weapon. So if you drop FT totem, sure you will get your +dmg bonuses but rogues/warriors/melee dps in your group i highly doubt will have any + spell damage gear on and would not recieve it. And I doubt you will have any melee locks/mages/spriests/ele shamans. | |||||||||||
| #1363 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Capital |
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| #1364 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sharmania |
Hello,
I've been reading this thread for quite a while now, been a great help to me! But i've been wondering something for some time, is the Dragonstrike really that good?I do not have acces to Syphon, but i can get a Dragonstrike, if i manage to raise Blacksmithing ![]() Now, i am an orc, so i'm curious, is the Wicked Edge not better?Also how good is Dragonstrike in comparsion to Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver(as an orc) ? Appreciate any answers! | |||||||||||
| #1365 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ruzia |
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| #1366 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Myul |
I want to take up the discussion about windfury versus flametongue for the offhand again.
At first, some improvements of Disquette's numbers ![]()
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance) 2.58 * 1.15 = 2.967 (full stack of improved scorch debuff) 2.967 * 1.13 = 3.35 (improved Curse of elements ->Malediction talent) 3.35 * 1.05 = 3.52 (Shadowpriest's Misery) 3.52 * 1.05 = 3.70 (5% spell crit rate) 3.70 * 1.15 = 4.25 (elemental weapons) But i really miss a point, the partial resists. If i remember correctly, flametongue is a non-binary spell and that's why it can be partially resisted and that should lower the damage remarkable (especially on higher level differences), because the -resistances from curse of elements seems not to work for the second roll. I'm sorry i can't find exactly numbers, but asking your warlocks spamming shadowbolts on lvl 72-73 mobs should confirm this, despite there is allways a curse up. -- Ok, let's ignore the partial resistsfor the moment. What's about the offhand weapon speed? Flametongue damage = (35 * weaponspeed + spellpower / 10) (from WoW Wiki Using 2500 AP = 750 spelldamage, it's (1.4 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Shiv: 126.1 dps raidbuffed (1.5 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Hacker: 120.4 dps raidbuffed (1.8 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Shanker: 109.1 dps raidbuffed (2.6 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver: 90.7 dps raidbuffed With higher AP (=spelldamage), faster weapon will even scale better with flametongue. But please remember, that you have to simulate your flurry and unleashed rage uptime with your weapon combination and use all this numbers for an accurate over all dps. Last edited by Myul : 08/14/07 at 12:45 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1367 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
That's a decent amount of dps, but I think the main advantage of WF on the offhand is to increase your procrate for both hands to 36%. I can't wait for 2.3!!
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| #1368 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin |
Yesss!!!
Kael down, now I have 4/5 t5!!! | |||||||||||
| #1369 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Tataka |
Specialization Flaw?
Forgive me if I missed this aspect, as there was a lot to read and I could have possibly skipped over it, but in checking out a good majority of the posters specs I saw that all of them went 20 points into Restoration in order to get that 3% increase chance to hit.
Now, assuming you have plenty of +hit gear wouldn't it be more viable to go with a spec that was Elemental/Enhancement rather than Enhancement/Resto ? A spec that included the 4 Elemental talents ( Convection / Concussion / Elemental Focus / Reverberation) could theoretically put out more DPS as long as you don't have to be spot healing in 10-25 man raids. In the end it allows you to shock whenever it is offcooldown and have those shocks come 1 second faster every hit. Add that up over a long period of time and thats a lot of extra shocks / extra damage. In a ten minute Vashj fight, assuming you are fighting the entire duration (which is unlikely) you would get roughly 15 extra shocks in. Assuming they hit for around 700 - 1400 dmg each (high end on a crit) thats 10,500 dmg you weren't doing right there on the low end. I currently use a 16/45/0 spec and have no trouble going OOM and am able to put out a good deal of DPS while still having relatively 'bad' gear. I could possibly be overlooking something very important (and I'm going to assume that I am and would like to be corrected/enlightened) but maybe I'm just too tired to put my finger on it at the moment. Let me know whether you agree or not. My enhancement shaman is still a baby level 70 but I am very interested in getting him as geared as my main. Last edited by Tataka : 08/14/07 at 10:35 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1370 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
As has been mentioned before, there are other less tangible benefits to putting points into the resto tree. If all you're concerned about is your personal DPS, than yes, by all means spec into Elemental. The resto tree offers a number of talent points that are beneficial to your raid. Increased totem area of effect, cheaper totems (so that you can continue to DPS and drop totems), improved Ankh (can't drop totems if you're dead!), and a chance at uninteruptable heals (spam heal yourself to stay alive when you pull aggro).
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| #1371 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Varag |
Is the Itemization - Gems list on the main page still the best option for each socket?
Based on stat weighting in lootzor, and the formulas on the main page, it would seem to suggest that unless you have a strong need for the socket bonus, or desire to satisfy a metagem set of requirements, you'd likely want 8 Str gem over any other option. | |||||||||||
| #1372 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
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I guess i'm at the point where my damage isn't really an issue now, I provide the buffs now and put out competative damage (top 3-7) switching gems to all +str would not be of much benefit, as would dropping all hit items, I firmly believe that at this point with my level of gear hit is now close to being as important as other crit/ap/haste. Miss rates on this weeks raids. (White damage) This is misses only (no dodges) 9% - Teron 7% & 8% - Gurtogg 9% - Azgalor 7% - Archimonde 10% - Najentus Missing the WWS from the rest of clear for some reason. Another thing which is bothering me, the dodge rate of bosses, I was under the impression it was a flat 5% chance to be dodged, but i'm getting roughtly 7-10%. | |||||||||||
| #1373 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Kombinat |
I've finally gotten myself into a raiding guild, and Kara is tomorrow. What I'm wondering is this: Can I hope not to embarrass myself in a 10 man situation with my gear? What gear should I have in order to even go into kara?
If you look at my armory, please let me know if there's anything failing in my gear. I've done the best that I can, given what I've had to work with. Malan: This is my bible. Please, keep up the good work. Thanks very much. | |||||||||||
| #1374 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
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I'll edit this when i've had a look. EDIT: Your gear isn't that bad, its worse than mine was when I first got to 70 though, Have you done all the quest that give rewards? I don't recalll having many of those items and I didn't have any lvl 60 enhancement gear. The netherstorm/smv chain quests have some nice rewards and the desolation set comes from 5 mans, midnight legs from heroic slave pens. If your going to kara though, and the other people are geared better or have the leather/mail gear already in there, you can probably skip all the above and go straight for kara epics. Last edited by Stigmata : 08/14/07 at 11:44 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1375 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
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Long story short, resto talents + totem twisting gives a much higher personal and group dps than putting points into elemental does. I don't think that will change before the new talents come out. Decreasing the cost of shocks and giving us more spell damage will go a long way towards making the first 20 points of elemental much better. | |||||||||||
| #1376 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Durigen |
Kombinat -
Your gear isn't that bad for starting Karazhan. Though you could really use to socket some +hit gems. Get your hit rating up alittle over 100, and then start focusing on crit. Otherwise your likely to be missing a good share of those possible critical hits. Don't be afriad to wear leather! Prior to Karazhan, there is some great feral leather out there that will give you really nice additions beyond the mail armor you have (particularly a good lucky drop from the rare spawn dragon in Blade's Edge, near Ogri'la, Hematiphus or something like that). Bet on your tank not being geared up either, if that's the case get KTM Threat Meter (if you don't already) and be very very careful of your threat. Until the tank get's some really nice gear your going to be a strong contender for pulling aggro. Other than that, just enjoy. Karazhan is really much more about technical aspects of raid performance than gear. Keep your totems up, and your DPS really won't matter as much as you think (even with the WF totem nerf). | |||||||||||
| #1377 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
I would suggest using the Lootzor link from the first post and setting the instances to "normal" which will show you a lot of Reputation, quest, and normal mode instance loot that you could work toward. Unfortunately for you, you picked the mail helm instead of the leather one from the quest, which would have been a lot better.
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| #1378 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
While ignoring the hit gems statement, do you understand how the attack table works? Do you truly think that adding hit = adding crit?
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| #1379 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Kombinat |
Thanks very much for the feedback, It's most appreciated. (I've updated my profile here as well, so should the question come up again it won't waste more of other's time.)
This guild had cleared kara before, it's on farm for the most part. Last night they gave the decapitator to a pally tank, just so he could use the on use effect while pulling when solo. Given the non-homogeneity of 10-man raiding I'd honestly prefer to be better geared, given that there's more than likely to be group members who gain little to no effect from my buffs. That said, I'd like to think that the buffs I do give would be more beneficial than the lack of synergy with one to two party members. I've got the DPS warriors and rogues fighting over who gets to group with me in gruul attempts already, I'm just a little concerned about the actual viability of my own DPS in a 10 man situation. I picked the helm before I knew about lootzor or stat weighting. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but thanks for pointing me towards something that would have taken up less of all your time. I often feel terrified while posting on here, lest I be hit with an infraction for being a tool, had I followed the links this mightn't have been necessary. (I run Omen right now, and I'm very careful not to pull aggro. Thanks for the heads up though.) | |||||||||||
| #1380 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
Besides using omen, I'd recommend that the number one thing you do is stay alive.
You don't have the get out of jail free card that many other classes do (ice block, evasion, cloak of shadows, shield wall, bubble, etc). Resultantly, you need to pay attention to your environment so you don't die. Besides the gentle (or not so gentle) ribbing you'll get for dying a lot, there's a feeling of nastiness you can get if you're dead and the melee suddenly lose a couple hundred AP, extra hit procs, etc.. Concentrate on staying alive until you're comfortable with all the encounters. If they're clearing Kara already, you're not going to be dps-competitive. That doesn't mean not to try your best to dps, it just means that your contribution is going to be even more skewed than normal by your buffs as opposed to personal dps. | |||||||||||
| #1381 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #1382 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Stigmata I just checked a few of my WWS parses and I'm showing a 7% dodge on many fights as well. Seems to vary though, other parses are showing as low as 3%.
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| #1383 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
Strange, on the 6 I checked all were above 5%
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| #1384 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
I had a 3% dodge rate on Leotheras. I attribute that to blind men can't dodge.
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| #1385 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Igniter |
I'm really torn between what pants to shoot for, I really like the -ac on azgalor's, bow stitch seems the best stat wise, but skyshatt has the set bonuses and such =\. I also don't like lootz0r, sue me. (since -ac is still pretty iffy)
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| #1386 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ryley | ||||||||||||
| #1387 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tristan |
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| #1388 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Teirz |
I was using ele/enh as well. But after swap over to enh/res, just like others you would be getting almost as much dps, but with better survivabilities. Being able to throw yourself a healing wave that can top you up in a lot of situation making yourself not being a liability to the raid. The rest of the point has been mentioned so i won't repeat. Things might change in patch 2.3 thou.
Just review some of my wws, was having dodge rating hover ard 5%, ranging from 3%-7% as well, and the last blindman fight was at 6%. | |||||||||||
| #1389 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Teirz |
That thread seems so misleading.
As far as i know, by adding a 30% crit (imp backstab) it converts 30% of your hit% to crit%. and leaving your miss chance untouch. So if you are left with 25% hit buffer, the extra 5% crit is not going to convert your miss to hit nor crit but just wasted. | |||||||||||
| #1390 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1391 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Viator |
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Firm numbers will tell of course. I just think about that Maulgar run where an errant Blast Wave caught a couple healers and my healing literally was the difference between success and failure, light as a no +healing geared guy's healing is. | |||||||||||
| #1392 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
I'm 99% positive that they can't. If a mob flips to instant cast they can parry, but if it's an actual cast bar they can't; otherwise Reliquary would be ridiculous.
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| #1393 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
I searched EJ before my first response, and just now searched again to verify and have found at least 10 seperate posts by members of the community that say that mobs can dodge and parry while casting.
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| #1394 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Teirz |
You can just spend 14 point in resto.
- 5 point for Imp Healing Wave. - 2 point for Imp Ankh, 3 point in Totemic Focus - 3 point for Nature Guidance, 1 for Totemic Mastery Well this is my preference as i am playing as a dpser/off healer quite frequently. An Enhancement/Resto Shaman will normally have around 45-50% white dmg, 35-40% windfury, 10% stormstrike, and the rest on misc like shocks. An Enhancement/Ele Shaman will normally have around 45% white dmg, 30-35% windfury, 8-10% stormstrike, and around 10-15% shocks. So spending 15-18 point to improve shocks wouldn't help you that much compare to Nature guidance, esp when Enhancement shaman faced threat problem as a major issue. Being able to self sustain and giving the raid more utility (totem range) is more useful. | |||||||||||
| #1395 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Viator |
I know a lot of people are intrigued by the possibilities of Elemental Devastation with the coming changes. Are we able to project out what sort of damage boost we're looking at if you went 18/43 or are we going to have to wait for some ingame parses?
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| #1396 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Viator, check this post
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| #1397 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Viator |
Whoopsy!
That'll teach me to actually work when I'm in the office. Even still, losing the 3% to hit from Resto seems too big to lose to me in comparison. I'm also a horrible twister. ![]() | |||||||||||
| #1398 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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http://elitistjerks.com/432404-post186.html for example. There are many others stating the same thing. | |||||||||||
| #1399 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Teirz |
Remember that Ele Devastation only proc when you have a spell crits. For an enh shaman you will probably have around 5-6% spell crit (unless you trying to get spell crits from gem or gear other than int).
Here we assume: - Taking 6% spell crit for theorycraft - 9% of melee crit, last 10sec of Ele Devastation - With 5sec shock non stop spamming In an IDEAL case: Ele Devast up time = 6% x 2 shock = 12% (Assuming the shock crit & land nicely) 12% x 9% = 1.08% avg melee crit Compare to Nature guidance which is 3% melee& spell hit, is truely a big difference. I might be wrong in the ideal calculation. But i think it gives you an idea on how Ele Devastation is currently bad for enhancement shaman. The incoming changes is not going to do anything to your spell crits but only spell damage. Unless they change it such that FT, FB crit proc for elemental devastation, else it is still not a good talent afterall. | |||||||||||
| #1400 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
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Here's the Quigon post - http://elitistjerks.com/438652-post681.html I could be wrong on the doge bit, but the parry seems to hold true, even if its a bug in the mechanic. Last edited by Malan : 08/14/07 at 4:30 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1401 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sinmul |
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From what I could see graphically, it appeared to proc a good number of times for the Rogue and Prot-warrior in my group. And the stats showed 283 procs for the Rogue and 381 for the Prot-warrior over the course about 3 hours and 15 minutes. So roughly about 1.5 procs per minute for the Rogue and 2.05 per minute for the Warrior. OK ... It doesn't look so good that way, but again, I wish I had before-nerf stats to compare the results. From everything I've read though, it's a drop, which is a shame as WF totem doesn't benefit me at all. And if you can ignore my low DPS numbers (I wasn't shocking near as much as I should have) and my sub-par gear, I thought I did alright. What was really impressive to me was the speed we took out some of the bosses. Aran was dead in just over 2 minutes ... and that's something I haven't even done with my main. First Kara Run - wws log. All I know is my melee group loved having WF and GoA. And towards the end I was even tossing in WoA for the hunters scorpid pet at the beginning and then going into totem twisting. It's probably just a matter of time before they 'fix' totem twisting. But you know, I had a lot of fun doing it. -sin | |||||||||||
| #1402 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
That's the word I was looking for. Totem twisting makes raiding as enhancement fun again. The normal auto-attack + shock + SS rotation was boring as hell for me. But that's a bit off-topic, so I'm done talking about it.
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| #1403 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
AEP system
I am new to this forum, this is my second post only, please do not consider it as a personal assault in any form because it may state something that you used to think different about.
I am really impressed by the knowlege collected here and would like to contribute. Let’s take a look of what is a typical answer that one will receive upon asking questions “what is my expected dps given the following gear?” or which is the same, “what is the best upgrade?” That person will be forwarded to the first page for the following algorithm: ![]()
AEP system’s use is so limited that it can not be used in answering the question which piece of armor will boost dps more. I will provide simple examples with numbers later but let’s start with the following absurd statement “Extensive modeling, simulation, and empirical testing by Dr.Lee, Dr. Ivanov and Dr. Jones show that an average clicnic-wide temperature is 35,6 C (while normal is 36,6 C) and blood pressure = 110 systolic (normal being 120). These tests have produced a generally agreed-upon set of numbers for determining the pills which produce the highest positive effect. The average of the most reliable closed-form model and iterative simulations have produced the following set of temperature equivalency valuations (TEP), for use in pills selection: 1 TEP =1 C = 10 pulses. Every patient in the clinic will be given any mix of pills that increases their TEP by 2, including those with boiling blood and those at morgue.” Here are chosen data values from empirical testing by Disquette (post). Example 1. 2400 AP, 190 HR, 18% crit produce 776,62 dps 100 AP increase results in 789,75 dps, that is 0,1313 increase per point of AP 50 hit rating increase results in 812,54 dps, that is 0,7184 increas per point of HR This provides HR = 5,4714 AP instead of suggested “for everybody” HR = 1,4 AP Example 2. 800 AP, 340 HR, 31,5% crit = 531,4 dps 100 AP increase results in 556,7 dps, that is 0,253 increase per point of AP 50 hit rating increase results in 539,52 dps, that is 0,1624 increas per point of HR This provides HR = 0,6419 AP instead of suggested “for everybody” HR = 1,4 AP From the function analysis pov AEP is “gradient” and it should be different at every point. Replacing non-linear cross-dependent arguments with their linear combination with static weights is not allowed – that is exactly what AEP is doing. Simply put the function dps = function (AEP) can not exist. So, instead of believing that Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings) Crit Rating = 2 Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings) Hit Rating = 1.4 Attack Power = 1 for everyone, it is in fact true for only one combination of Str, CR, Agi, Haste, etc. and in a very close vicinity around that combination. Furthermore, even in that vicinity any combination of the above attributes having the same total AEP may provide better or worse DPS than just one attribute value worth of the same AEP. You can safely replace CR with Agi and AP with Str because they are dependent linearly, but replacing any of Str, Agi, HR, Haste with each other is not possible with static ratio. Here is an example of non-linear cross interaction. Think about assigning static AEP value to the item with chance-on-hit. It is obvious that haste will result in item working more, even with possible hidden cooldown that complicates haste-proc dependence. Up to 6 times faster given all available haste buffs. So, depending on haste, stat increase provided by item that is supposed to be measured by AEP can be rather different while the static item always provides same stat benefit . Same goes to haste – increasing haste by set amount will produce different results depending on how many “chance on hit” items you carry in complex non-linear way. As a side note, several items similar to dragonspine trophy can provide something similar to a “time horizon effect” of “black holes” increasing chance on hitting again while the proc lasts to almost 100% effectively making procs last forever. So, what is the correct answer to the question “what is the best upgrade?” ? There are several possible solutions. 1) the very best one is analytical – finding the exact formula dps =function(ap, crit, hit,…). You simply put your ap, crit, hit, etc. values and get the probability distribution of expected dps. Finding analytical solution is very impressive achievement and a holy grail of theorycrafting. So far it was not found. 2) simulation – creating sim that behaves exactly like in game is considerable achievement. So far several sims were created, none of them covering all game mechanics such as ppm trinkets, etc. and some of them are not corresponding with the in-game tests by a big margin. 3) matrix-method – uses data, mined during in-game tests directly. It looks up your values in the spreadsheet and returns corresponding recorded dps. So, my answer would be: 1) try searching available collected raw data for your values, find corresponding dps, search for the new values with planned upgrade and compare the new dps 2) if you can not find your combo recorded – try entering your values into simulating programs that possibly can fill the gap 3) use Lootzor and AEP weights from first page as “poor man’s” last hope, do not use it at all if you are experimenting with alternative gear such as with a lot of +haste and chance-on-hit procs. | |||||||||||
| #1404 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol |
@ Yo, you may want to clean up that wall of text a little.
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| #1405 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | oogg |
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| #1406 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
I'm fairly certain everyone here understands that the values listed in the first post are only to be used as a general guide if your stats are similar to the ones used to determine the values.
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2) Best source of info we have right now probably why it's used so widely. 3) Such a matrix doesn't exist to my knowledge and the number of variables that would need to be accounted for in producing one is staggering to imagine. ![]()
2) Certainly, however doing so is a challenge to less technically inclined users. 3) For those unable/unwilling to simulate for themselves it's certainly better than just guessing at what values are useful. | |||||||||||
| #1407 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Ok, when you start with this:
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That said, your argument is somewhat baffling to me since the quotation you listed states that the AEP are values "generally agreed upon" by the community. Nowhere are claims made that these are perfect and infallible values. While the front post does contain references to the 3 posts that you took some info from, those are there to provide credit to those 3 simulation authors, not to be used as authoritative sources for everything else in the post. Much of the information as we know at has changed quite a bit from the 3 links you're disputing. Further, your solutions fly in the face of the very problem you said you would set out to disprove. You begin by saying that the AEP values are wrong, and then conclude by telling everyone to just use the simulations which are exactly where the AEP values were derived from! | |||||||||||
| #1408 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Bufford |
Yo! seems a bunch of people are jumping on you for your post, I will only a little...
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An extreme example I know but if +hit is valued at 1.4 do you think people are really going to wonder why they just added +50 hit and their dps didn't go up if they are already at 500 +hit? No of course not. People that come and post here are expected to have some base knowledge about their class. These are not the WoW general forums where complete idiocy runs so rampant. It appears you put a lot of work into your numbers, most people here apprecieate hard work so long as you present it with the right attitude, in short welcome to the community. | |||||||||||
| #1409 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sebudai |
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| #1410 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sudoxe |
I am a long time reader of the EJ forums and have always loved the ability to find intelligent and mature discussion about relevant topics here. This thread has been a especially good source of information for me in the last while. Thank you Malan for starting this thread and constantly updating that first post as discussion brings out important findings. I have read most of this thread, but I have to admit I have probably missed some as occasionally it gains pages so fast. I have never posted before, but wanted to see if I could direct some discussion towards some things I have been thinking about.
When BC came out this character was a alt and his professions weren't a big deal to me. He currently has Alchemy (Transmute) and Jewelcrafting, with very few patterns. Since then I have switched guilds and he has become my main. I am thinking about switching professions and am wondering if there is a opinion on how much it is worth starting from scratch on some of them or how good they are overall. Blacksmithing. I am currently running Decapitator MH and Merc Gladiator OH. My guild is in the middle of SSC in content. Is it worth leveling Blacksmithing to get the Dragonstrike or should I just wait until we get to BT to get a Rising Tide and or Syphon? I have been planning on trying to get a second Arena weapon, but no one seems to want a Enhancement Shaman on their Arena Team. I haven't been willing to respec for Arena cause my healing or elemental gear isn't that good either. Just wondering some opinions. Leatherworking. Is it worth leveling this up fresh? Some of the craftable gear seems really good, the leather more so then the mail. It would also provide another person in our melee group with Drums of Battle. Enchanting. The ring enchants are very unique and something I leveled on my paladin at the start of BC cause I felt they were a great personal buff from my profession. Is the +4 stats per ring worth it? Just wondering if anyone has any overall opinions on what professions are the best for a Enhancement Shaman. Please feel free to make any other comments on my gear. I am always looking to improve in any way I can. | |||||||||||
| #1411 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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| #1412 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sebudai |
If I weren't shackled to Alchemy for the rest of my life I'd do Leatherworking and Blacksmithing for sure. Get out while you still can!
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| #1413 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ardonomus |
I'm already a leatherworker, but I'm scared that leveling blacksmithing will be extremely expensive to do without mining. I get the impression that it costs about 5000G or more to get blacksmithing from 0-375 these days, anyone got any information about that?
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| #1414 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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| #1415 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Aeolian |
Ardonomus, see if some of your guild members will help you out. The three other shamans in my guild contributed a lot of the ore needed to level blacksmithing from 300-375. Pre-300 is actually fairly inexpensive if your server has a decent economy. I spent roughly 700g to get to 300, after that I spent another 1000g or so on my own materials. Added to that the large chunk I had given to me it would probably total 2500g or so. Its definitely not cheap, and I had to put off getting my epic mount to power level Leatherworking as well as Blacksmithing.
But with all that said, Dragonstrike is very much worth it. Its unlikely that I will replace it any time soon. Even once my guild is into Black Temple I'll probably run with it along side Syphon. | |||||||||||
| #1416 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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![]() My examples with data that is not way different from what can happen in a game show that AEP values are several times off of what they should be at the given situation. If put into Lootzor it will provide the list of possible upgrades in the wrong order, some of the items will actually lead to decrese in DPS. Thanks! | |||||||||||
| #1417 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
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Yeah, as your crit% went up, so did the effect of each AP increase. However, when looking at it in dps% increases per increases in hit/crit/AP, it was much closer to linear than I thought it would be. That's on a relatively old version of the sim - I really need to get my laptop back from the shop so I can do more sim v. real-life tests to tune it right. That's my biggest concern right now. I want to be able to look at a recap/wws of a fight, find out what my crit%, hit%, dodge%, parry% was, put them into the sim along with my base AP, and come within 1% of the observed dps for a variety of gear. (assuming I know the mob armor). I don't really care who's sim does this - joe's, pater's, tornhoof's closed form. It'd just be nice to have any one of them mirror game mechanics close enough so that we can say "here it is, that is all". | |||||||||||
| #1418 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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However they are only to be used as a general guide if your stats are similar to the only one "perfect" combo - not all the ones used to determine the values. Sims cover very different combos and than simply round up all the results producing average AEP values that are several times different from the AEP values for some of combos covered. ![]()
![]() 1.2 Agreed 1.3 It is of course far from perfect - provides data through set intervals (discrete), runs through combos of only few stats, may be collected from too short samples, some unaccounted events could affect data while being recorded, etc. But they are still better for the large spectrum of possible combos than AEP that is perfect for only one and good in the small vicinity. So, that being said, if you happen to find your stats being recorded - use it, if not use sim. 2.1 Data sets mentioned on first page can be used better than AEP system for the values they cover. 2.2. Certainly. 2.3 Using AEP+lootzor will definitely provide wrong order of possible upgrades for some stat combos that players may have with some items leading to decrese in DPS. Is it better than just guessing at what values are useful? Last edited by Yo! : 08/14/07 at 8:32 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1419 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
Yes, it is much better than just guessing. I suspect you're overestimating the difference in values. I know that for myself my stats have gone from very close to the numbers the original scales are based on to very different. I've gained lots of ap, some crit, tons of haste and lost lots of hit, but when I make a scale today using the same sim the original one was created with the values have only changed by 0.2-0.3. This means that putting them into lootzor results in a nearly identical order for item rankings, the best items are still the best. It's not exactly the same but it's so close as not to matter.
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| #1420 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Show us which items are wrong then, because it sure as heck seems accurate to me, once you consider that Lootzor doesn't have haste rating enabled.
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| #1421 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Rob |
I agree, I'd like to see an example where there's an appreciable upgrade in Lootzor rating but sims say that the item would be a downgrade.
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| #1422 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | xereva |
I'm following this thread for quiet some time already and i love it. This is my first post here.
I'm using two 2.6 speed blue weapons at the moment ([Demonblood Eviscerator] and [Boggspine Knuckles]). We only just started to do kara every now and then and yesterday [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] dropped and i got it. Now i know that slower weapons are better and that it's also good to have the same speed main and offhand. But you think i could better use the wolf paw then the eviscerator? At least my offhand is slower then... | |||||||||||
| #1423 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
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| #1424 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
@Yo, I wrote a program to specifically tackle the "problem" you wrote about in your long post. See page one under models/simulators etc. While the actual result dps migh be too high (ideal encounter and stuff) the change in dps based on equipment changes should scale linearly too.
On the other hand while the calculated AEP values are only valid for one exact build, the deviation for other builds/equip values is not that great, without considering the extreme values, it is around 0.1 for each value. So simply spoken, if you have no crit to keep UR/flurry up to a certain extent, +crit is more valuable for you by a small amount. If you have no +hit to even get 9% +hit, +hit is more valuable etc. But for a common raidbuffed enh shaman the calculated aep values are as valid as they can get without considering each equipment individually, which my program does, the results are fairly identical, though. | |||||||||||
| #1425 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hexxus |
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Throw Crusader or Mongoose on that badboy and you'll be in good shape. | |||||||||||
| # | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | falonub |
Ok, so I've been thinking of tweaking my spec a little. Right now I'm 2/2 into Guardian totems. I've seen some use in pvp but more importantly and the primary reason of my post: During Lady Vashj fight I switch myself in the MTs group to give him grounding totem effect to eat her Shock Burst on phase 1/3. I'm wondering if any other shaman that's been in charge has done this with or without this talent as sometimes I put it down and gets absorbed right away and I shit myself as I watch my CD tick away slowly. The timing is supposedly "random" was just wondering if anyone has ever experienced it more than once every fifteen seconds.
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| #1427 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Zorak |
A bit offtopic, sorry.
Hello. This is my first post, but ive been reading this forum for quite some time now,
especially this thread as i am playing a shaman myself. Thanks all you guys for working out all these facts. I am particularly taken with the AEP calculations. Because of that, i created a small app that allows me (and you) to compare items based on those values without being in the game (pawn) or calculating. I do not know if such a program already existed and if so, it will most likely be better than mine. But well, give it a try if you are curious. Note that I created the program for me mainly, i know that it works for me (shaman) on my pc, but i did not really test the other template features (it allows you to create aep values for nearly every stat, not only those relevant for us shamans.) and yea, the code is sloppy. if you want it to crash, it will crash. but normally it should work. if not, tell me. I currently do not update the program as it suits my needs. However, if some of you guys (more than 3) like it, tell me what to change, tell me about bugs, suggestions and i will see what i can do. does anyone need a good xml itemdatabase btw? thats the main problem currently as the allakhazam database does not support haste (i think). ![]() If you are curious, you can find further facts, a small howto and more screenshots here. i can not create a new post because i do not have enough posts. if some of you guys think that it is worth it, you can do so (but link to this post please). oh yea and: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK! (the program does not do anything fancy and it will not try to open or alter any file except the templates.xml file.) Last edited by Zorak : 08/15/07 at 9:30 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1428 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
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| #1429 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drc |
Since I recently got a chance to grab [Icon of Unyielding Courage], I've been wondering if anyone has yet found an AEP value for -armor. (And yes, I know that +hit isn't the best stat I can get
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| #1430 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
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| #1431 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Crax |
I'm new, so forgive me if this is obvious.
The only potential drawback to -armor is that on very low armor mobs, it's possible for it to be worthless since -armor has no effect once a mobs armor is reduced to zero. However, I don't think this is currently an issue for any significant raid bosses. In fact, the recent testing information in the Hemo thread would seem to indicate that we (the theorycrafting community) have underestimated the value of -armor for quite some time. | |||||||||||
| #1432 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
Can a mob have negative armor? Or once it is at 0 there is no further reduction available?
I'm currently trying to work out future gear options, stormrage signet, BT trash neck, madness of the betrayer and soul cleaver. What I'm thinking is, if reducing X mob Y armor then the minimum benefit would be Z additional damage, something like Morogrim has pretty high armor, where as Solarian seems to have very little, possibly none? Sunder is 520 per sunder applied, Would it be possible to work it out from this? | |||||||||||
| #1433 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
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On the topic of grounding totems on vashj, I was charged with the same responsibility. I have guardian totems in my build because I pvp occasionally and like them for that purpose. It just happened to be useful in raiding too. I never encountered an instance where grounding was needed and I wasn't able to place it in time. | |||||||||||
| #1434 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
The problem as described to me was that the calculations do not hold true between the various ranges. -800 armor when the mob only has 2000 armor will lead to a much higher damage increase than if the mob has 20,000 armor and you remove 800. Its not a linear curve.
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| #1435 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Gwaihir |
I think I saw a post in the DPS warrior thread that investigated this specifically.
Yea, this post: http://elitistjerks.com/442876-post49.html concluded that -armor stops giving any benefit at all once the boss is at zero armor. | |||||||||||
| #1436 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
Here is the prove, that shows that "average" AEP’s use is wrong for the majority of stat combos possible in game by a big margin.
I took data from empirical testing by Disquette and used following algorithm: For each Hit/AP combo with given crit remember recorded dps. Find combo that is the previous one with +100 ap and get new dps. Find the difference and divide it by 100 to get dps increase per point of AP. Do the same for +50 hit rating step (these are minimal steps presented in collected data) and find dps increase per point of HR. Divide dps per HR by dps per AP to find local AEP ratio for the initial Hit/AP combo. Here are the results: ![]() ![]() The first graph shows actual AEP numbers. Look at how big standard deviation (expected difference from the mean) is = 0.77. Mean = 1.1, it is not surprising that it is different from “generally agreed upon” 1.3 as the later can be easily obtained with another covered range of stat combos. It proves again that these general “average” AEP values provide nothing for specific stat combos that players come up with. Second graph shows probability distribution function for AEP. Each column is 0.2 range – that is a significant change for the weight value. 43% of combos fall into range where actual AEP is below mean by 10% and more, 41% are above mean by 10%, only 16% of combos are within 10% difference from mean. So, there is 84% chance over the whole range of covered combos, that average AEP will be different from your actual AEP by more than 10%. There is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%. That is for one pair Hit-AP only. If same holds true for other pairs, one can speculate, that the probability of at least one weights being wrong by 30% or more is 1-0.455^(number of non-linear dependant attributes). There are 4 such major attributes (AP, Hit, Crit, Haste) so it becomes 96% chance that at least 1 of the weights will be more than 30% wrong. Last edited by Yo! : 08/15/07 at 12:00 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1437 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Juice |
Statistics to the rescue, nice work.
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| #1438 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
You state that 0.77 is a large standard deviation, but large compared to what? What is the agreed upon variance in standard deviation for this data?
If I'm understanding this correctly (and given my record there's a good chance that I'm not), you're stating that there is a 96% chance that when comparing Item A to Item B using Pawn or Lootzor, that Item B will incorrectly appear to be an upgrade, because at least one of the stats is valued incorrectly for the particular stats that the player has *at that moment in time*? If that's the case... does it even really matter? Essentially if a guy with 800 AP, 50 Hit Rating and 15% Crit looks at an item that was valued using AEP that came from a guy with 2200 AP, 150 Hit, 30% Crit - why should he not value that item as an upgrade against a "meta set" of itemization that represents what he would eventually have? ie, I base my upgrades against the expected outcome of all my upgrades, my final set of expected gear. Last edited by Malan : 08/15/07 at 12:23 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1439 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drc |
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| #1440 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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| #1441 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | oogg |
Regression Analysis?
Yo,
Can you do some regression analysis on the variables (AP, crit, hit, etc) and derive a set of variable functions for us to use in our simulations? Barring that, we will have to stick to the linear models we have. You seem to have the mathematical prowess to accomplish this. On another note. Even if you derive variable functions, they will still need to be applied from the gear backwards as in the lootzor or Tornhoof's model. The reason is that although you may discover the optimal combination of stats at specific values (maximums), the gear may not exist to accommodate that specific maximum. This is one of the reasons that I liked Tornhoof's closed simulation so much. It removed all of the uncontrolled variables and tested existing gear combinations to discover the optimal combinations of gear available to you at that time. I'm speculating, but I think a combination of variable functions and a closed model like Tornhoof's will be the closest we can come to our goal. | |||||||||||
| #1442 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
Look at the pretty line I get when I look at AP in steps of 400, against larger steps of the increased hit and crit rate
![]() Out of the 36 datapoints, we had: Mean: 0.23 Dps/AP StDev: 0.02 (9% of the mean) It looks like we have a really great model for AP, over a huge range of hit/crit values! Furthermore, since 30% is being accepted as the "close enough" barometer for values by Yo!, I'll use that to test the 36 datapoints I have. Exactly 0 of them fall outside 30% of the mean, so I guess I have a perfect data set. It even works out like we'd expect, with increasing returns on AP as our hit and crit rate increase (shown by the upward trend in the graph). Statistics to the rescue indeed. Now, back to the big_test.xls sheet that i'd uploaded so that people could review it, did everyone just ignore the lines on the bottom of my data set where I included: ![]() I specifically put in those calculations in the big results test so that people would know how widely varied the data points were. So, let's look at those big hit rating swings. My biggest mistake, probably, was making the steps too small. If you use larger steps, you get nicer numbers to look at. They make pretty graphs like the one above. It has so much variation between runs (that's how shaman work), that sometimes you get flukey things. When you were going through the result data, did you really think that increasing hit rating should decrease dps? I really hope not. Yet running the sim, there were instances of that. It's yet another thing I specifically pointed out in a separate column so that people would know what they're looking it. So, instead of wallowing through the minutae just so you can exclaim "it's all wrong and worthless", how about you take some time and figure out if, in a broader context, it's meaningful? Here's an example. I took three of the AP levels (I chose 900, 1700, 2500, because they're evenly spaced and are WAY out of each other's range, so they should satisfy your complaint about gear levels resulting diff APE ratings). I then eliminated half of the hit rating steps (increasing them by 100 instead of 50). This should give me a better picture, and again, should address your notion that APE are not valid across gear ranges. Now let's look at the pretty picture: ![]() No, it's not nearly as nice as the AP graph, but it's still pretty consistent. Much more than the 70% variability you were discussing. In this case, the average dps/hitrating = .275. The stdev = 0.084 (for a stdev 31% of the mean). This time, using your "30% variation is ok" concept, 71% of data points fall into the acceptable range. If I look across all gear levels, and say that each hit rating is worth just a little bit more than one AP, I'd be pretty accurate, based on the two charts I have posted above, which cover almost the entire range of gearing choices. Statistics can say what ever you want them to, pretty much. I could probably argue on Yo!'s side and say that all this theorycraft in here is utter garbage, at best meaningless to the shaman community, and at worst ill-advising people. I just need to find the right data that makes graphs that appear horrendous or beautiful. That's why I'm glad that the theorycraft has been born out in actual game scenarios, with multiple people of varied gear-levels saying "i changed out my hit gems for AP or crit gems, started focusing more on crit and AP, and my dps went up significantly". I don't know how shaman dps works in many instances. There's all sorts of things that are hard to account for. But just like looking for a coin at night, the first places you check is where it's already light, and you hope you find it there. | |||||||||||
| #1443 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
When looking at the armor range on bosses it really isn't that large a spread, just about every boss I've seen using targetarmor falls between 3500 and 5500 armor - 25% to 35% mitigation.
As for hitting 0 and -armor losing it's value the lowest I've seen is Essence of Suffering which seems to average about 1700 after sunder and FF, add in CoR and you'd still need -900 to hit 0. Since the most a shaman can equip right now is -301(-601 with MotB procced) it's really not an issue. As for AEP values I was hoping to get some feedback on my speculation here: http://elitistjerks.com/447956-post1339.html It seems to me that we know how much -armor changes our dps since we know the armor mitigation formulas. The only variables are how much it costs in the item budget, which we don't know but can estimate and what are good values for boss armor which we have a pretty decent idea of. So if we assume 7 -armor for 1 item point and bosses around 4500 armor, I think it's safe to say that on a shaman with T6ish stats(I use my own) it's worth about 1.9(1.8 for 5500 and 2.04 for 3500, 2.34 on EoS btw). | |||||||||||
| #1444 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aramund |
Maybe its a bad assumption, but I always assumed armor penetration would work in the exact opposite way that gaining armor works. When you gain 1,000 armor you gain a set amount of damage reduction. In other words, even though you get a larger percentage of mitigation going from 1,000 armor to 2000 armor than you do going from 10,000 armor to 11,000 armor, the actual amount of damage reduced by that 1,000 armor class gain remains the same.
I always assumed that armor penetration would hold true to this, just backwards. In other words, 300 armor penetration would increase damage by the same amount against a target with 10,000 armor as it would against a target with 1,000 armor. The 1,000 armor target would lose a larger percentage of mitigation obviously, but the increase in damage done to the targets would remain the same. | |||||||||||
| #1445 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drc |
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| #1446 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
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The formula on Armor - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki show a non-linear curve on armor mitigation. You can check it plugging random armory profiles into that formula and you'll see the mitigation % matches it exactly. As an example using that formula if you assume a 1000 hit and then a 1000 armor reduction we'll get the following results: 10000 armor = 513.56 9000 armor = 539.82 Difference = 26.26 2000 armor = 840.73 1000 armor = 913.48 Difference = 72.74 So unless I've missed something(which is very possible), the armor the mob starts with is a large factor in determining the value of -armor. | |||||||||||
| #1447 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol |
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Lowering the Armor makes the % of reduction go down, just like adding armor makes it go up. The value of -armor will go up as your base dmg go up. For example: If your target has 50% DR and you can push it to 48% with -armor then thats a 4% increase in dps. So if you push at 800 dps, then you'd be at 832, for the duration of the -armor. So as your base DPS will go up, so will the value from -armor. Last edited by Iol : 08/15/07 at 6:12 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1448 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
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| #1449 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Myul |
Since you are using x to value the increase/decrease for both cases, it will allways be the same.
I want to add some numbers to the armor penetration discussion to support Morelis claim. Using the same formula from wowwiki Levels 60+ DR% = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59))) x / (x+400+85*(70+4.5*(70-59))) = x / (x+10557.5) = you: lvl 70, hitting for 1000 damage, attackspeed 1.0 enemy1: lvl 70, 30.000 armor = 73.97% reduction or 260.3 dmg/hit enemy2: lvl 70, 20.000 armor = 65.45% reduction or 345.5 dmg/hit enemy3: lvl 70, 10.000 armor = 48.64% reduction or 513.6 dmg/hit enemy4: lvl 70, 05.000 armor = 32.13% reduction or 678.7 dmg/hit enemy5: lvl 70, 02.000 armor = 15.93% reduction or 840.7 dmg/hit enemy6: lvl 70, 01.500 armor = 12.44% reduction or 875.6 dmg/hit Debuffing the mob with sunder armor, expose armor, fearie fire or wearing armor penetration gear for an amount of -1000 armor will net you those numbers: enemy1: lvl 70, 29.000 armor = 73.11% reduction or 268.9 dmg/hit enemy2: lvl 70, 19.000 armor = 64.28% reduction or 357.2 dmg/hit enemy3: lvl 70, 09.000 armor = 46.02% reduction or 539.8 dmg/hit enemy4: lvl 70, 04.000 armor = 27.47% reduction or 725.3 dmg/hit enemy5: lvl 70, 01.000 armor = 08.65% reduction or 913.5 dmg/hit enemy6: lvl 70, 00.500 armor = 04.52% reduction or 954.8 dmg/hit enemy1: 3.3% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration enemy2: 3.4% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration enemy3: 5.1% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration enemy4: 6.9% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration enemy5: 8.6% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration enemy6: 9.0% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration Bossarmor is about 5.000 to 8.000 on average defore debuffs are applied, that's why a missing fearie fire will hurt your melee close as much as a missing pot or minor attackpower buff. Armor penetration could help here a lot and it's a decent pvp stat while fighting cloth wearer with 500 resilence. But there's no way you could say 1 AP = -12.5 armor pen on general or average. | |||||||||||
| #1450 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Well we certainly could do an average and work an AEP from that, but it would be pretty damn inaccurate.
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| #1476 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! | ||||||||||||
| #1477 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Yah but Yo! that makes very little sense - if an item is an upgrade it should be an upgrade regardless of the rest of your kit. How can something be good now, but after 2 upgrades to other slots, be worse off?
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| #1478 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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" there is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%" (soory for self-quote 2). ![]()
It does not mean that he has to change his equipment towards the combo where there is 1.4 ratio to improve his DPS, however boosting his DPS by choosing +hit instead of +ap will drift his local AEP from 5.5 towards 1.4 and at some point beyond that. Look at this another way - how valuable additional +hit rating is when person reaches hit cap? Is it 1.4 ap? Or is it more like 0.0? And it is not changing suddenly like 1.4, 1.4, 1.4 1.4 oops 0. It is drifting towards 0 the more + hit rating you have given AP remains the same (still with a big downfall at the end). Hope this helps. Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 9:17 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1479 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Myul |
Of course it does, Malan.
[Cataclysm Gauntlets] 77 AP 1.056 % Crit 1.52 % Hit (374 HP + 396 Mana and ~ 0.3% Spellcrit) [Fel Leather Gloves] 62 AP 1.08 % Crit 1.07 % Hit [Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation] 77 AP 1.52 % Crit 0 % Hit and compared to eg [Cyclone Gauntlets] (those aren't even on the list!) 59 AP 0.924 Crit 1.20 % Hit (286 HP + 396 Mana + ~ 0.3% Spellcrit and 5mp5) Conclusion: There is no huge range between all of them (beside set boni and a bigger mana- and healthpool). To the "Yo! Discussion", You are using 12% hit instead of 22%, that's a large difference. It's around hitting only 8 of 9 out of 10 attacks and should result in heavily lower ur/flurry uptime. I still believe, that 22% hit is a little too highly set for a good aep comparison, it's to close to the hitcap (that's around 25.5 to 27.5 if i remember correctly) while you can "easily" obtain 1000 more ap and/or 10% more crit. Malacort What weapons are your rogues wielding? With S2/T3+ weapons, doesn't matter if they are sword/mace/dagger your rogues should get better results from Wf with a combat specc. Only a multilate rogue could really prefer grace of air over windfury for reaching ~ 45-50% crit raidbuffed with the ashtongue trinket buff (that result in a lot more cp from seal fate and ruthlessness/relentless strikes talents) and deadly poison allways up. | |||||||||||
| #1480 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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And that is exactly why "average AEP" provided poor test guy with wrong suggestion for choosing gem. And that is why it should not be used by him. And you feel right that it is not worth reaching hit cap while you can "easily" obtain 1000 more ap and/or 10% more crit because local AEP (true AEP for the specific stat combo) will favor AP and Crit much more than "average AEP". So, following what average AEP suggests is evil. I said it before, did not I? ![]() | |||||||||||
| #1481 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
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Now, we're not dealing with a square, but the attributes (hit/crit/haste/ap) can be seen analagously to one for the purposes of qualitative but not quantitative comparison. If you're really low on hit compared to the other dimension, you're going to get more bang for the buck increasing hit. This is a lot like what stigmata said in a recent post about his gear. My problem with Yo!'s initial posts were that they made it seem like you got nothing out of assigning the average AEP values. Personally, I agree that AEP changes as you gear up differently. However, my original reason for writing the sim and finding results was to confirm that hit was the be all and end all of enhance shaman statistics - it was the conventional wisdom, but I hadn't seen it proved anywhere, so I wanted to see why. It was quite the shock to find it so underwhelming at certain gear levels. I still think that it has valid uses - and for a starting shaman with average gear, it gives you a direction to aim for. Once you get to the boundary cases where you've used it to the point that you have 0 hit rating and 1800 AEP, I think it's certainly very worthwhile to re run the sims (or just comprehend it internally) to the point where you have to realize that you're going to get much more of a return on hit than you initially did. back to the rectangle. Here's how I see shaman decision making 4 months ago based on the gear available then: It's H wide by AP tall. When H and AP = 10, the area is 100. It turns out that for $5, you can increase H by 2 or AP by 5. At that point in the general shaman world, people were choosing to increase H by 2 units instead of AP by 5. Fast forward to the current day, when that rectangle is 8H wide by 20AP tall, for an area of 160 square units. Now for the same $5, increasing AP to 25 gives you an area of 200. If you were to increase the H dimension by 2, however, you'd have a total area of 200 also - they've normalized. AEP is good for shaman over a very wide variety of gear. However, when you get to the extremes that AEP will lead you, you will indeed start making sub-optimal gear choices. This is confounded more by the fact that the higher AP goes with raid buffs (people are now raiding with 3k+ AP often with buffs) that hit is going to become more and more important (as will crit, for that matter). I don't disagree with Yo's statements taken by themselves. What I have disagreed with is that for the vast majority of shaman, the current AEP ratings would misguide them. Gear up through kara, when using AEP, won't let you neglect hit, so shaman have been ok. Accordingly, when I ran the sims, note that AP stopped at around 2500 and crit around 31%. Now that times have changed, and we can see where gear is, a new version should probably be done (esp with haste gear, which was unforseen by me, which would more strongly value +hit). It's impossible to use a constant set of values that is good for everyone, but I think that the ones that have been used to date have helped a lot of shaman from sinking into a trap of "Max +hit first, and then worry about your other stats". As I've said repeatedly, if tornhoof can get a closed form of parameterized attributes working, that would be my preferred solution. Yo! - I hope you realize that if I've sounded harsh, it's not because I disagree with the notions you have set forth. I just don't want people thinking that as they grow from dungeons to heroics to SSC/TK, they have been making bad choices. I think the AEP are ok up through that level. Now that we are beyond that, there probably does need to be a rejiggering of values (and preferably in a parameterized way). | |||||||||||
| #1482 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drc |
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| #1483 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malacort |
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| #1484 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Rob |
Sure. But you neglect to address the thrust of my argument: static AEP values are useful at "reasonable" gear combinations. Sure, if you just have 2800 AP and 0 hit rating, that won't be as good as 2600 AP and 100 hit rating even though the AEP values say otherwise. But there's no set of gear which would allow you to obtain 2800 AP and 0 hit. So why pretend that there is ever going to be a shaman running around with 2400 AP and 47 hit when trying to invalidate the use of AEP figures?
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I will finally end by noting that I still haven't seen any number for the standard deviation of simulated tests at a given AP/crit/hit number -- unless it's lower than 9%, AEP is actually a better measure (given that the standard deviation of AP across all of Disquette's tests was 9%.) | |||||||||||
| #1485 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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![]() Squre example was something that I wanted to post next! Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My). But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared. So lets do it now ![]() Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes). If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point ![]() If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1. If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage. Squre example was something that I wanted to post next! ![]() Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My). But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared. So lets do it now ![]() Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes). If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point ![]() If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1. If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage. Squre example was something that I wanted to post next! ![]() Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My). But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared. So lets do it now ![]() Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes). If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point ![]() If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1. If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage. Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 10:03 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1486 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Kaubel | ||||||||||||
| #1487 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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. Especially with availability of +haste items. It will be actually possible to count exactly how many shamans will not benefit from "average" AEP if projects such as Armory Musings... will provide database for free download. Each test at a given AP/crit/hit number was run for 1 hour, there were no repeated tests for the same AP/crit/hit combo. Disquette knows more about it as he is the one responsible for that test ![]() Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 10:38 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1488 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Myul |
I allmost understand your cube/square example, but shouldn't you try to fit it to our certain problem?
By only comparing hit and ap, there is some point (0% hit), when ap won't benefit you something, to. But we are not talking about the minimum stats, we are talking about some much more common stats. The extremes might happen once in a blue moon and are a mathematical phenomenon, but aren't important in this case. No person will spend all his dkp to gain 100 other ap, the margin is so much smaller.. He maybe lose 1-2% hit or crit of 15-30%, but shouldn't drop under some minimal stats. Maybe we should describe them in the beginning post, to. Every shaman will need x% hit to keep up ur & flurry with two z speed weapons. Every shaman will need y% crit to keep up ur & flurry with two z speed weapons. Using x=15%, y=25% and z=2.6 while proofing this with any of the simulators should be enough. Of course, the set aep might not be true for some data examples somewhere far away from this, like x=5%, y=50% and z=4.0 .. edit: to your last post, you are saying the average aep aren't right because the people don't have the same average stats after farming karazhan? Of course, there will be differences. But i really doubt, for adding 2% crit and 100 ap from better gear your stats would change to something odd like Haste Rating = 3.7 Strength = -4 Crit Rating = 7 Agility = 5 Hit Rating = 3 Attack Power = 24 All what happen is, that it might change to something like Haste Rating = 2.3 Strength = 2.1 Crit Rating = 1.9 Agility = 1.7 Hit Rating = 1.6 Attack Power = 1.05 --- Lootzor could need some updates, i think. There's no season 2 gear listed except the shoulders and some items have still not updated their socket boni. Because of the high value of some leather helmet's (ignoring the far better agi/critdmg meta gem) and the fel leather gloves, i started valueing stamina a little bit, too. You won't want to play with raidbuffed 8.000 hp at trash or other bosses than ebonroc, so it's not that important.. -> lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character (assuming bok and using the exactly numbers for hit & agi, no rounding issues). You will notice, that allmost all good items still stay on top of the list, so it won't matter with your choices for t4+ gear. | |||||||||||
| #1489 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Lolwhat? |
Like I said, I wasn't on a comp that could play wow and im not spec'd enhance atm so posting my armory wouldn't have done anything but linked my resto gear. I'll log out in my enhance gear when I log tonight though.
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| #1490 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Blackmoon |
Hi guys, first of all i'd like to say thanks for the glut of helpful information here. I switched to enhancement about 2 weeks ago and am currently trying to gear up to be useful in raids, your compilation has helped immensely.
On to my question and i hope it hasn't already been asked (i've read as much as humanly possible, but didn't spot this specifically anywhere. I'm currently using [Reflex Blades] Main hand, and am struggling to find anything offhand thats slower. My current off hand isn't showing on the armory, but its a 2.60 green axe (65.6dps if i remember right) and i'll be picking up the High Warlord axe this weekend, but even that is only 2.60. Given the problems with fast OH, do i want to just ditch reflex blades altogether and grab another high warlord axe? its .10 speed diff but from what i'm reading it'll still gimp me badly. How do the strike mechanics work for weapons with matching speeds? is having 2 2.60 speed weapons a problem for windfury or does the main hand weapon always take priority? | |||||||||||
| #1491 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
I actually don't understand the whole AEP discussion at all, we have several more or less valid models of shaman enh dps. Each and every model has a certain weighting towards one or more stats, my model is more fond of hitrating and hasterating than of critrating.
My current model rates the attributes at a 2.2k AP,22% hit, 25% crit gear for: 1CR = 1.18HR 1CR = 1.045Str (incl. BoK) 1CR = 0.794 HasteRating Actually I don't know why anyone should care about AEP values for unbuffed non raid envionments, there is no reason to use AEP if you never have BoM, BoK, Battleshout and Elixir/Flask. Now to the mathematical finer points of the whole discussion. your attributes/stats are not linearly independent, +crit increases +ap to a certain degree and +haste (if you take flurry as a haste rating (which is a valid assumption)) etc, the only stat which is practically independent of everything else is AP. Other than that I do agree that the calculated AEP values are only valid for a fairly small window. To me it is kinda obvious that it is not possible to compare two individual items on your equipment based on AEP, it has to be obvious for me, otherwise writing my program would have been lost time ![]() | |||||||||||
| #1492 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
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| #1493 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Blackmoon |
I assume you are referring to [Fool's Bane], which i must admit i'd not seen before
![]() What i meant by priority was swing order from the start of an attack, rather than procs, as in both weapons don't strike simultaneously even if the speed is the same. If this is the case then MH would have the first chance to proc windfury, even though both are the same speed. I assume? In either case thanks for your advice, i look forward to forcing my guild to fight Terestian (oh they are going to love that...). | |||||||||||
| #1494 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drc |
Blackmoon, [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] or [The Decapitator] are good weapons, too. So if your guild doesn't like Illhoof, go for one of them.
Regarding weapon swing order: When you start combat in melee range, the mainhand will always strike first. | |||||||||||
| #1495 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Blackmoon |
Yeah i checked out the paw, and decided to go for the slower hitters if i could. Of course if it drops i can always adapt
Plus it will make it easier to find a off hand thats slower...hmm... methinks you might have thrown a monkey in my carefully balanced plan. | |||||||||||
| #1496 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Krom[Fenris] |
# Crypt Fiends around Azeroth and at Hyjal Summit are now more totem friendly.
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| #1497 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Jelu |
I'm thinking of rolling a Shaman but I'd like a little bit different gameplay from my Rogue so I'm wondering if 2-handers are viable for an Enh Shaman and what the spec might look like? I've tried searching a couple of times but never found anything, all the talk is about dual wielding and comments would be much appreciated.
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| #1498 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Disquette, Yo! et al - perhaps what we need are 3 (or more) sets of AEP that establish some baselines. ie, while leveling 1-70 with pretty minimal AP/Hit/Crit available, here's the AEP you need. For 70 normal/heroic/KZ instances, use these other values. Once you hit XYZ values of stats, roughly SSC/TK time frame, use these. After you've geared in SSC/TK and you're at the extreme top end of stats, now use these other AEP for Black Temple and Hyjal.
@Jelu - 2H is relegated to PvP for the most part, and even in PvP it may not be the clear winner anymore. DW is superior for PvE purposes. The days of shaman swinging big huge 2H's is pretty much over. It varies enough from a rogue either way. | |||||||||||
| #1499 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Severjanin |
This is my first post so hi everyone.
@Blackmoon: I just started again in July and I've been 70 for about a month now gearing up so i feel I'm on the same level as you and my little advice is to get the level 60 High Warlord 2.9 speed weapon as it's still serving me since around lvl 64 . Just yesterday I managed 735dps according to wws so it is indeed a more than viable weapon and above all very easy to get. I think it would out-damage the level 70 version assuming you get Battleshout in the raid. It's so good I don't feel I'm working towards an upgrade in Runic Hammer but rather I'm working just to test if it's better. On the Karazhan weapons, get what drops first. I was lucky enough to get the Paw almost as soon as I dinged 70 and it helped alot for farming and grinding to gear up (skill up leatherworking). To be honest, I don't really find much difference between the Paw and the Decapitator. | |||||||||||
| #1500 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Shabadu |
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| #1576 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
Post-nerf Dragonstrike is still pretty decent, the shoulders aren't worth it anymore though. I had mining on an alt for BS and when I decided to do LW I took skinning first and farmed everything I needed to get to 375 then dropped it to pick up LW.
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| #1577 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | panny |
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As an aside, I've been swapping in and out my AP gear for my +hit gear, and my DPS has been fairly consistant across attempts, possibly due to the affect my procs are having. My guild isn't up to BT yet, so if a Shaman with both Dragonstrike/DST can test their damage on Teron with a +hit set and an AP set, I'd be fairly interested. Last edited by panny : 08/19/07 at 9:20 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1578 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Toots Hepcat |
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Here's an example of where they're useful (excluding the complex dynamics of WF and SS, under the assumption that at this level they scale AP/HR & Crit the same as white damage). In your example here, you've essentially sacrificed about 4% of your absolute damage. In exchange, you're gaining 1.28% crit and 2.15% to hit, for a grand total of 3.43% more damage by chance. So you've nerfed yourself slightly. If you don't drink Major Agility, drop GoA or group with druids, you may need that extra 1.28% crit chance to keep up Flurry and Rage, and that may be worth a loss of .6%. Get Pawn and Outfitter going and just compare your gear. It may be there's a real good combination in your bank already, just waiting to be discovered. I gained about 40 dps the first time I did this, re-equipping well rounded gear I otherwise might have sharded. | |||||||||||
| #1579 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
I think a good target to aim for is 1500AP/150Hit/25% crit unbuffed, from there you can decide what you prefer and what you think is better for you.
There does not seem to be a right and wrong, If I drop more hit for AP, my DPS does not increase, likewise if I get more hit at the cost of AP my dps does not change. My next target will be 1700AP/200Hit/30%Crit. The one thing that sticks out for me that people dont mention, is raid buffed stats, you cannot gain hit by any buff, so having a really low amount cannot be made up for with pots/flask or whatever. | |||||||||||
| #1580 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Usernaem |
Hmm ok so I was testing this in 5-mans (Fist weapon MH and OH out of Arc/Bot)
It seems I get more DPS consistently using the WF/FB combo whereas the first post said WF in the OH will substantially have more DPS. I'm not getting something behind the theorycraft behind the weapon imbues maybe? | |||||||||||
| #1581 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drc |
An armory link would have been helpful, but I take from your post that you are using [Reflex Blades] and [Stormreaver Warblades]. If so, there's your mistake. Fast offhands "steal" the mainhand's WF procs and thus lower your overall damage.
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| #1582 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Usernaem |
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| #1583 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malevolencia | ||||||||||||
| #1584 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1585 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Usernaem |
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I was NEVER into theorycrafting for Shamans until now. Should I use WF/WF for Slow MH/Fast OH or Slow MH/Slow OH. I don't know how to maximize DPS with certain weapons (Slow or Fast weapons) with certain weapon imbues. Pre BC, it was easy. Grab a 2H (It's slow), put WF on. You're set. So again, can anyone clarify what the best combos to use for certain weapon speeds? I'm so confused atm. ![]() Last edited by Usernaem : 08/20/07 at 7:21 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1586 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | scrub |
I am really hoping that at level 80 an enchancement shaman will have more than 2-3 buttons to push, because at the moment I find shamans an incredibly boring class to DPS as.
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| #1587 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1588 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Usernaem | ||||||||||||
| #1589 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin | ||||||||||||
| #1590 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #1591 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Accept the fact that your numbers are going to be terrible I guess? I'm not really sure what you're looking for here, you're using a sub-optimal OH with a sub-optimal imbue on it, and you somehow expect it to work out for the better?
Last edited by Malan : 08/20/07 at 8:27 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1592 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Usernaem |
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I understand the fast OH will lower my DPS as compared to a slow OH. I got that, thanks though. I was asking which imbues would be best for what speed of weapons of OH. You could of simply answered the question instead of trying to be a little bit rude about it. Thanks to the other guy btw for answering my question perfectly. | |||||||||||
| #1593 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | LiteSabre |
A question to enhance shaman in endgame guilds: How much DPS do you normally put out?
A resto shammie I know recently respecced to enhance after we got Illidan down; he'd been gathering enhance loot on and off and wanted to try out being DPS. I tried to help him out as much as I could through this thread (he doesn't speak English), and we managed to whip his gear into a rough approximation of what I think might be normal. He is a bit low on hit though, but higher on crit than I think most enhance are. Dunno if the link will work, but here's the armory (dragonstrike/nathrezim instead of the 2hander, normally). Pants are Bow-stitched Leggings with +10 str in all 3 sockets. He hasn't gotten the totem of astral winds (is that right?) to drop yet. Anyway, he was really pumped up, but he was only able to put out 600 to 700 DPS or so and got depressed when he compared himself to the other DPS, especially the elemental shaman who were putting out well in excess of 1200 DPS. I don't know if there's something he's doing wrong as I can't play for him, but I was wondering if there's some crucial something I'm missing and haven't told him. Is there some kind of secret DPS cycle that you guys use? :P Last edited by LiteSabre : 08/20/07 at 9:15 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1594 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Enhance DPS is pretty dependent on group buffs - he needs to make sure he's getting BattleShout, maybe LotP, and definitely needs to be using consumables (food, pots). I can't read Korean so I can't comment much on his gear, but his AP/Crit/Hit totals seem to look ok - the only thing I'd question is that he seems to be wearing a Drake Fang Talisman? If so, replace that ASAP. There's no secret cycle, depends a lot on what fight you're saying he's getting that DPS on.
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| #1595 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Toots Hepcat |
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You will get better dps RIGHT NOW by dropping that fast OH and picking up a crummy green OH with 2.6 speed and putting WF on it. I can vouch for this, because I made that EXACT trade and saw a hefty boost. If you insist on using a fast OH, by all means use WF/FT, but realize you're nerfing yourself. Hey, I think that weapon combo looks awesome too -- but it didn't help my raid much. | |||||||||||
| #1596 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | LiteSabre |
The only party buff he gets is battle shout, and he uses major fortitude+major agility with the strength food.
Yeah, that's a DFT. I told him to scrap it but he insists that he needs it or he loses too much hit. Bah. I assume I'm not mistaken that a bloodlust brooch would be more effective than the talisman? The fight in question was Anetheron, but he achieved similar numbers on Morogrim, Teron and Rage Winterchill. Basically near-tank'n'spank fights. The highest I ever saw him go was 730 or so. The thing is, I (and most of our raid) was under the impression that enhance shaman were masters of 'winning the threat meter'. At least then it's be a question of threat cap and not of DPS. So when he wasn't even visible on the threat meter, it seemed to hit him pretty hard. Oh, and another question: for weapons, he has access to one Merc. Gladiator's Cleaver, Syphon of the Nathrezim, Dragonstrike and an assortment of daggers/fast OHs that I promptly said no to after reading this thread. I'm assuming that the best possible combination would be MH Dragonstrike/OH Nathrezim; is that correct? | |||||||||||
| #1597 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | berg |
I understand why melee haste was changed. It was such a bargain that it was the preferred stat for almost every physical dps build.
That said, they did not perform an adjustment. It was outright nerfed it to hell. It appears that they more or less just decided to remove this mechanic from the game which is a shame because it was a good one in my opinion. | |||||||||||
| #1598 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ujai |
/edit: Nevermind, should refresh this page before replying.
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| #1599 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol |
I'd need some clarifications on the +hit value scaling with Crit / AP. I mean, we want to hit the +hit cap someday, when our AP and Crit is pretty high as well. But it's unclear what + hit to aim for depending on your overall gear level...
For a 1600 AP 30% crit, what's a healthy +hit For a 2100 AP 36% crit, does the healthy +hit value increased in a linear way. | |||||||||||
| #1600 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | berg |
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| #1651 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
April 17th...
WoW Forums -> WF Proc (same rank MH/OH) is still > 20% ![]()
Malan, I just checked through the initial post, doing a search for 34%, 35%, or 36%, and didn't see any mention. It might preempt a couple questions if you include something like: Windfury Proc Rate: When you are wielding a two handed weapon, or are using a sword and shield, your chance to proc windfury on any landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is 20%. When you dual wield weapons, the chance on each landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is approximatedly 36%. | |||||||||||
| #1652 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Yah that one slipped by me, I realized this morning we were missing that bit of info. I'll add it now.
@Drc - the 12 AP = 1DPS was proposed by Hedin, it was a result of simplifying the weapon damage formulas once Weapon Mastery was included. I removed it from the OP because it was a confusing issue. People thought it meant that every 12 AP meant their DPS should go up by 1, but the DPS was referring strictly to the weapon's physical damage per second. Last edited by Malan : 08/21/07 at 10:21 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1653 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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No cross-interactions from items and abilities with ppm, on-use, flat % proc were modeled. | |||||||||||
| #1654 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morninglory | ||||||||||||
| #1655 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Jelu |
There's much talk about the [Dragonstrike] and this is obviously a fantastic Shaman weapon but I'm wondering if that with the haste nerf and the Orc bonus to axes if [Wicked Edge of the Planes] isn't the better weapon for Orc Shaman? I think there was a post about this previously but I can't seem to find it and I don't recall any corroboration to that assertion.
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| #1656 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda |
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edit: and following posts. (obviously..) Last edited by vorda : 08/21/07 at 12:48 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1657 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Strygwyr |
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The question at hand still remains, for an orc Shaman, would Dragonstrike or Wicked Edge of Planes be better? this question was not valid pre-haste nerf due to dragonstrike being much better, it is a valid question now though. Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I Post 1651 states Dragonstike at 98 AEP, Wicked Edge of the Planes Binds when picked up UniqueMain Hand Axe 184 - 343 Damage Speed 2.70 (97.6 damage per second) Durability 105 / 105 Requires Level 70 Requires Master Axesmith Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 23. Equip: Increases attack power by 48. 23 CR = 46 AEP 48 AP = 48 AEP Wicked Edge of the Planes can be valued at 94 AEP, add the small benefit from +5 weapon skill, which I am almost sure exceeds 4 AEP, and it is a better weapon for orc shamans. | |||||||||||
| #1658 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda |
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I wonder how the comparison would be for someone with double mongoose and a dst. On the other hand, we still dont know almost anything about the new values/effect of weapon skill, right? | |||||||||||
| #1659 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
Normally I would test this myself, but it's maintenance day so I'll ask here instead:
Does FT calculate it's damage based on hasted or unhasted weapon speeds? I'm wondering in anticipation of the 2.3 talent changes. I see: http://elitistjerks.com/298540-post81.html ![]()
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| #1660 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
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Lemme show you some other values: 1318.10645 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon +1% haste: 1327.6145 +1% hit: 1328.61462 +1% crit: 1333.174 +50 AP: 1335.03015 1360.20471 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 19% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon +1% haste: 1370.10718 +1% hit: 1370.75488 +1% crit: 1375.48389 +50 AP: 1377.67334 Obviously the values increase a bit (which is expected, since they influence values which are multplicative factors to the dps), obviously 15% +hit is not the ideal hit value, 19% +hit is closer to the ideal +hit value. Strength with BoK is still the superior attribute, +crit following shortly behind and haste/hit having fairly identical values. | |||||||||||
| #1661 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Strygwyr |
I havent come accross any extensive research pertaining weapon skill for shamans.
im sure it functions the same as any other class but a specific AEP value for 1 weapon skill for a shaman hasnt been concluded. As you said "the haste AEP doesnt include factors such as trinkets without internal cooldowns and certain ppm's (like mongoose). (which obviously would be extremely hard)". If you were to Average the uptime of a Dragonstrike and set it to a "permanent" haste effect, it would equivalent to about 60-70 haste rating, in our terms for valueing gear, thats between 91.2-106.4 AEP. You claim that there is addition value for haste because it increases procs and and trinkets ithout internal cooldowns, well so does crit due to flurry. you could be extensive and say that theoritcaly with a 33% crit rate you would be in a constant flurry state due to 1 in every 3 attacks being a crit. My point is that extensiver theorycrafting and tests have concluded these values for items based on how that stat increases our DPS, AP = 1 AEP, Crit = 2 AEP etc... to say that the value someone assigned to haste rating on dragonstike is to say our AEP system is wrong, it may very well be wrong, but it is the system 90%~ of this thread is based on. I only find it fit to base these weapons on that same system. | |||||||||||
| #1662 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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Here are AEP values for Tornhoof example few posts above (2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon): 1 AP = 1 1 Haste rating = 2.675 1 Hit rating = 1.965 1 Crit rating = 2.014 Compare it to the values from first page that people continue to use: ![]()
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| #1663 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Yo!, the values are not wrong they're just averages as you said. Being an average doesn't make it wrong. Flipping a coin 10 times produces an average of 5 heads, 5 tails. If you get 2 heads, 8 tails, that does not make the average wrong.
Tornhoof's values from a few posts ago was for a different model, he was modeling values in BT gear. The values on the front page were modeled from SSC/TK/KZ gear levels. | |||||||||||
| #1664 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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Here is what should be written on first page instead of average AEP values: "AEP is system that compares stats by assigning value to each stat that shows how much DPS will increase by increasing your stat by 1. Please notice that AEP values are not stable and may vary a lot from one stat combination to another . To get AEP values for your current/desired gear - use sim. Here is a list of stat combos with their corresponding AEP values: Tier 4 - Tier 5 - Tier 6 - Crafted with haste - etc... AEP system's use is further limited by non-linear cross-dependance of stats. If you to make a choice between 2 gear upgrades that benefit several stats the one better in-game may be different from the one suggested by AEP. For better grounded choice - use sim. Using average AEP values is no better than using built-in-game AEP system called "item level". " | |||||||||||
| #1665 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sharmania |
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I value axes at around 30AEP atleast, so i'd take Wicked Edge over Dragonstrike any time. | |||||||||||
| #1666 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
Afaik the +haste value was pre 2.1 too (not sure though)
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| #1667 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
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| #1668 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Aurvandil |
2 Questions
1. I'm an enchanter and I almost have access to the +4 stats to ring, would that be better to use than +2 weapon damage? -I figure the +4 stats is worth 4 agi * 2 + 4 str * 2.2 = 16.8 AEP, but also gives the modest benifit of the other stats being boosted -obviously the +2 weapon damage will depend on your weapon speed. I use 2 2.6 speed, but when you count in dual mongoose, dragonspine, and 73 passive haste(6.94%) the speed becomes much lower. With just flurry and passive haste my weapon speed is 1.84 -it appears that on the character sheet it shows the +2 weapon damage being applied to both hands, and isn't affected by the offhand penalty. -given the above, +2 weapon damage should be +2 weapon damage * 2 weapons / 1.87 speed = 2.139 dps +2 weapon damage > +4 stats 2. WorldofRaids says that on the PTR haste for melee has changed from 10.5 haste rating per 1% to 15.7 haste rating per 1%. What would be the new AEP value of haste? -On my pawn string I had haste rated at 2 -I noticed the link in this thread rating it at 2.22 -so the new rating would be (10.5 / 15.7) * old rating right? so 1.48 if its rated at 2.22, 1.33 with my rating of 2(though I'm probably going to change that. can someone check my math on this? am I calculating #1 and #2 correctly? Last edited by Aurvandil : 08/21/07 at 5:10 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1669 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
Yo already rewrote my DPS values into AEP, I prefer DPS values over AEP because you can convert them to whatever equivalency model you like and especially compare them to other results from other models.
My model probably overrates +haste a bit. | |||||||||||
| #1670 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Aurvandil |
fine
Last edited by Aurvandil : 08/22/07 at 2:07 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1671 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol | ||||||||||||
| #1672 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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They will overlap more often of course ![]() | |||||||||||
| #1673 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Yo, if you provide the values for some reasonable AEP steps, I'll gladly put them in a table on the first post. I'm hesitant to label them as "T4, T5, T6" etc, as that puts arbitrary limits on gear to an unexperienced shaman reading the values. (ie, they might discard huge upgrades from lower lvl zones because its not in their "tier") I think a more reasonable way of doing it is describing it in reasonable steps of AP/Crit/Hit. So a lvl 70 entry-level shaman would have X AP, a mid-level shaman would have X+A AP, and a high-level shaman would have X+B AP, etc etc.
To throw some random numbers out there, we might as an example say that an entry lvl should have 1000 AP, 20% Crit, 12% Hit, a mid level might have 2000 AP, 26% Crit, 17% Hit, so on and so forth. | |||||||||||
| #1674 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol | ||||||||||||
| #1675 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Unaz |
I'd say, without hard numbers to back it up, going for elemental shock talents is probably worth it until about halfway through SSC in progression. At that point your melee damage will be scaling fairly rapidly. You also get far more benefits from things like increased totem range and quicker ankhs around that point with larger/longer fights.
The elemental talents are good, but currently do not scale at all with gear. So after a certain point, your elemental damage won't be scaling along with the extra damage the 3% hit gives you. | |||||||||||
| #1036 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ardonomus | ||||||||||||
| #1037 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1038 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Teirz | ||||||||||||
| #1039 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin | ||||||||||||
| #1040 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Gulvan | ||||||||||||
| #1041 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Gorlek |
Last edited by Gorlek : 08/04/07 at 6:20 AM. Reason: Needed to tidy things up a bit | |||||||||||
| #1042 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sebudai | ||||||||||||
| #1043 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin | ||||||||||||
| #1044 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Capital | ||||||||||||
| #1045 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aeolian | ||||||||||||
| #1046 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin | ||||||||||||
| #1047 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Xaro | ||||||||||||
| #1048 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Teirz | ||||||||||||
| #1049 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #1050 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Disquette | ||||||||||||
| #1751 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | xereva |
Last edited by xereva : 08/23/07 at 3:26 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1752 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Aikillju |
Flametongue and Frostbrand
Last edited by Aikillju : 08/23/07 at 3:51 AM. Reason: Fixed a spelling mistake | |||||||||||
| #1753 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sebudai | ||||||||||||
| #1754 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aikillju | ||||||||||||
| #1755 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
Last edited by Stigmata : 08/23/07 at 4:50 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1756 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof | ||||||||||||
| #1757 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Usernaem | ||||||||||||
| #1758 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda | ||||||||||||
| #1759 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Tristan |
Last edited by Tristan : 08/23/07 at 8:09 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1760 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tonkan |
TK/SSC/BT gear
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| #1761 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1762 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #1763 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1764 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #1765 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1766 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Gremm | ||||||||||||
| #1767 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | berg |
Last edited by berg : 08/23/07 at 10:08 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1768 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1769 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Tonkan |
Last edited by Tonkan : 08/23/07 at 10:50 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1770 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #1771 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol | ||||||||||||
| #1772 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Raigore |
BS: Axe spec, and the 2.7/2.6 combo
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| #1773 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | berg | ||||||||||||
| #1774 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tonkan | ||||||||||||
| #1775 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Khatib |
Last edited by Khatib : 08/23/07 at 11:31 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1801 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda |
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| #1802 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
I agree -- stop trying to convince the guy that WF is better.
Instead, put him in a group with hunters, druids, poison rogues and warriors who still use sharpening stones, where he can do no harm. Ignoring AP for a second, Windfury is an extra 20% to white melee damage. GoA is at maximum + 3% to all melee damage. Windfury is therefore always better than GoA when white damage is more than 15% of total melee damage. In groups, assuming everybody's dps is equal and white damage accounts for at least 40% of overall damage, Windfury is superior if only two members pick up the buff off it. | |||||||||||
| #1803 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
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| #1804 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Kaay |
Well hes still very reluctant to give us it. I think its time to give up theres no chaging his mind.
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| #1805 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin |
Was thinking about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] it gives 120ap and 80spd with full stacks, will it be good using this trinket after 2.3 buff with a fast OH+FT?
(120ap*30%+80spd)*10%=+11,6 fire damage before COE+Scorch+Spriest and (maybe) Elemental Weapons. Does FT proc this trinket? __________________ Hed Military EU-Stonemaul - Draenei Shaman 70lvl 0-46-15 UnbuffedI Sense Demons. WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns. MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans. MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window. WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers. Last edited by Hedin : 08/24/07 at 4:23 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1806 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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| #1807 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin |
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And I didn't count all the buffs... __________________ Hed Military EU-Stonemaul - Draenei Shaman 70lvl 0-46-15 UnbuffedI Sense Demons. WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns. MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans. MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window. WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers. | |||||||||||
| #1808 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava | ||||||||||||
| #1809 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tshonka |
Hello,
my first post here. Thanks you very much for the info in this thread, it rules. It is good reading material in the morning here at work and it really helped improve my performance. I have some questions (and yes i have read the previous 70 pages )1) does tranquility stack with salvationi. I ask this because on some fights our dps warrior has problems. I dont think they do but i want conformation of smarter people .2) does totemtwisting improve your own dps also? And by how much it increases it the dps of the others if you dont totem twist. Our group setup is a pve dualwielding fury warrior, 2 (or 3) swords rogues, and sometimes one feral druid. 3) my own performance should improve I heard. We run with 2 enhance shamans, one in MT group and one in melee group. Normally i go in the melee group and try to improve the dps of our group to the max. For me this is the most important. Therre are some complaints though that my own dps is not as high as the other enhance shaman. He is a bit better geared but I think it has to do with our task though. So this is my armory link The Armory can you give me some good tips. This are our wow web stats overview Wow Web Stats. I know my trinket is not that good but i hope to get the hourglass and the bloodlust brooch this weekend (bloody things never drop and I made a mistake in heroic badges once). I hope to get the tsunami talisman soon also. Good boots seems to have dissappeared in the loottables when I am arround but i keep clearing KZ every week for it .Normally i use SS when i can (trying not to be in the wf cooldown, thanks for the maker of this addon ), and a rotation of Flame shock and earth shock. My SS is used up last runs by our elemental shaman. Our guild has killed 3 bosses in SSC and 2 in the Eye. Loot in our tier 5 instances has been poo and i have loads of dkp to spend (if something usefull would drop)Any other tips to cycles, gear or other stuff. Should i play more "egocentric" to upper my dps? 4) is the trinket for alchemy any good for us? Did not see it in the thread and i am not sure. For me it helps when using mana pots on fights where shamanstic rage is difficult to use. What would be the value of it comparing to other trinkets. Should i keep using it? 5) we have lots of theocrafting how much dps a shaman brings to a melee group but i did not see any theocrafting how much a enhancement shaman brings to threat. In the MT group we have a prot warrior, a feral druid, an enhancement shaman and then 2 out of a resto druid, prot pala, affliction warlock. How much extra threat and dps he brings in that group. We ran a farmrun yesterday to gruul without a shaman in the MT group and i heard people complain that threat was much lower. So any theocrafting on this one? Already thanks for my difficult questions and keep up the good work Malan and the others. __________________ "Emocow" | |||||||||||
| #1810 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tristan |
@Tshonka
1) 44% threat reduction with (only) Blessing of Salvation and Tranquil Air. Kenco: A Guide To Threat. 2) From the OP: The shaman is placed on constant global cooldown. The mana cost of refreshing 2 totems every 9 seconds is enormous. Raids that do not have paladins using Judgment of Wisdom will be unable to sustain this method. The shaman will have very little mana available for shocks and will likely only be able to sporadically use flame shock. (In summary I doubt it'll improve your own DPS but it'll increase the DPS the group gain from you )3) Personally I'd say no to playing more egoistic but ultimately it's your choice of course. 4) For the few times you need to chug a pot sure it's great but I have no doubt other trinkets (DPS ones) will benefit you more overall. 5) Haven't played my prot warrior for a while now but I used to see a significant increase in my KLH TPS with Windfury totem at the time. __________________ Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more) RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe) ![]()
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| #1811 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
1) It stacks.
2) Totem twisting improves the groups dps and increases your melee dps while reducing your ownoverall dps due to not shocking. 3) There is no technique to playing a shaman imo, you dont have to keep up certain things (s&d, Mangle etc) so simply always being behind the mob, using your CD's effectively and keeping down your totems will provide you with pretty reasonable DPS. 4) The trinket blows, bloodlust brooch, hourglass, abacus, crystal forged, are all easily attainable. 5) Having 2 enhancement shamans imo is a waste. Your tank should not need a shaman to be able to generate enough threat. Finally you've wearing all mail, any reason why? I think up till BT i was wearing 50% leather. | |||||||||||
| #1812 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tshonka |
raason why i wear mail is because of history earlier
1) i had a serious dislike for a shaman who ran around healing in cloth, he died just by looking at him. This was of course in vanilla wow but still now if i can get the mail stuff i would rather have that then leather. But i checked the lootzor link and maybe i should go for more leather then 2) dont want to "steal" the stuff from our rogues and feral druids but maybe i should begin with that .3) i will replace the trinket then All thanks for the info already, if you have more advice just let it flow ![]() __________________ "Emocow" | |||||||||||
| #1813 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drc |
Those are my current stats (more precise, would be if I had socketed pure damage, which I will be doing someday soon). The gear is maxed out from Karazhan and Heroics.
1400 AP 203 Hit 25,84% Crit __________________ Think of how stupid the average user is. Now realize half of them is even dumber than that. | |||||||||||
| #1814 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hulkling |
@Hed
Just tested, because frankly i've never used Flametongue since getting Darkmoon Card: Crusade. Nope, it doesnt proc from FT. Interestingly enough, it doesnt even proc from windfury, something I submitted a petition about months ago. WF being a physical attack you'd think it should activate the trinket. The GM thought so as well and told me it was a bug, but then again, hes a GM not a Dev. the latter seem to have funny notions of... well pretty much anything. | |||||||||||
| #1815 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
Tshonka --
You need better trinkets, my man. The Brooch, Abacus or Hourglass to start (easy farms), even the Skyguard trinket (since you're probably already exalted with them, it's 3g for 68 AEP without the proc), but you should really fight for the Dragonspine if it drops. Don't worry too much about dumping mail for some leather. It's nowhere near the same as wearing all cloth. I have a few leather pieces and much lower class gear than yours, and yet only have about 6% less DR. Is 6% really going to save you from being one-shotted? If you're worried about threat & survivability, here's a suggestion: get a nice gear mod like Outfitter. Find a high armor, high block shield and set it up as a key binding. The second your threat mod tells you you've exceeded 90% of the tank you're standing behind, switch to the shield, and the second you drop below 80%, switch back to DW. This gives you survivability way beyond what a few pieces of mail can give you. The AEP values of some of those leather pieces are just insane. You could use some extra +crit! | |||||||||||
| #1816 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
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On a side note, [Darkmoon Card: Wrath] might become a decent combo again once 2.3 hits due to FT since the Wrath buff doesn't get consumed by FT crits. I'll probably have to do PTR testing on this to find anything conclusive. | |||||||||||
| #1817 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Edit nevermind that was silly.
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| #1818 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Rob |
So, to bring something new into the thread...
Here they are discussing the effect of Weapon Skill. While it was previously believed that weapon skill grants 0.1% hit and 0.04% crit per point (not to be confused with weapon skill rating), it now appears that it's actually better than that for the first 5 points of weapon skill. This is a big deal for Enhancement Shamans because we have no way of getting Weapon Skill from talents like Rogues. In fact, the only item I'm aware of that grants weapon skill to non-daggers that we can equip is the [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Theoretically, this should give me an extra 2% hit and 0.24% crit with my Main Hand from the Weapon Skill rating, so I picked it up last night. (Sadly, my offhand is an axe and is not affected by this item... back of napkin math, 900 DPS 50% white 66% of which is MH, extra 2% hit = 900*.5*.66*.02 = 5.94 DPS; extra 0.24% crit 900 DPS 90% physical 66% of which is MH = 900*.9*.66*.0024 = 1.28 DPS, total contribution 7.22 DPS.... anyone want to carry this the rest of the way and convert that to AP?) BTW, if this proves to be correct, then I would have to suggest that any orc aim for the Arena axe if they weren't already, and any non-orc aim for the mace as I'm not aware of any items we can equip to boost axe weapon skill. | |||||||||||
| #1819 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
In theory if FT is as viable as we'd hope you'd get a hefty bonus from that with an Axe/Dagger combo.
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| #1820 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
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Using Disquette's Totem Twisting bar, I've started using WF totem but waiting to GoA until right after the first WF refresh. Over the long run it gives less GoA but it gives a 10s window for shaman to dps and refresh shocks/SS etc. More importantly, it gives more chances for WF crits, which cause significantly more damage than shocks. Since one MH WF crit does more damage than a shock, I can stop and start auto attacking to try and get the MH to proc WF. I don't have any fancy graphics, but my pattern goes something like this: 0s Flame shock (on approach) 1.5s WF totem (on approach) (get in melee range) 3.0s Storm Strike 4.5s Wait for WFT refresh 5.0s GoA 6.5s Earthshock (turn off/on auto attack to proc MH WF) 12s Flame shock 13.5s Storm Strike 15s WF totem Then rinse, lather, repeat. Sometimes I wait for a second or two so the first SS is inside the GoA time. Long story short, my DPS skyrocketed. It takes a retarded amount of keybinds and practicing to get it working, but the results are well worth it. Is anyone else doing something like this? | |||||||||||
| #1821 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Rob |
@Tshonka
5) You can always have a resto shaman drop WF in the MT's group, that is a fairly large increase in threat for him. Axe/dagger if you're orc, mace/mace or mace/dagger if you're anything else. | |||||||||||
| #1822 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | evale |
+hit/crit/str ratings:
How much crit and hit are worth is completely dependant on how much you already have!! How much ap you have means nothing if you don't hit the mob in the first place. And if you don't hit it, you can't get a WF so you are easily delaying your WF proc greatly which is not just missing 1 hit, you're missing 3. Also, how much crit is worth to you depends on how much you crit for. If you have tons of AP already, the amount being doubled by your crit is greater, thus the crit is worth more. Also, you should at least put a little bit of thought into sta/int/mp5. Sta: can't do dmg if you're dead can you? Int/mp5: Shamanistic rage generates bucketloads of aggro and let's face it, the biggest thing holding you back from rockin the dps charts is your threat. I'm happy to mana pot on CD but mana is still an issue, especially as BC instances are no longer 5-minute-Naxx. You're likely to need to shammy rage 3 times in one encounter! That is serious aggro. | |||||||||||
| #1823 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Rob |
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| #1824 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | washe |
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Well first post here, and damn lots of good info here, I will start to regear my shaman with some leather, altought Rogues will hate me a bit more for stealing his stuff. Question are you getting double mongoose proc using those cleavers? I read somewhere and I can be uniformed tought that Mongoose went into cooldown if the weapons had the same name, basically you wouldn't be able to have Mongoose x 2.... asking because Im working on the second merciless weapon. What options I have for Helms?, looks like the best helm its the one that drops from Doomwalker, but he its out of my hands for the moment due that we dont have enough raid force atm to do 25 mans. Also Im gemming the Midnight Legguards today and switching my desolation legs, Im aware I will lose like 30 hit, lowering my current 183 I got... I understand that at the moment I don't need that high hit number until later on. Thanks for sharing all the info guys! | |||||||||||
| #1825 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
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| #1851 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Kalamadea |
Hammer vs Axe
I've been pouring over pages of this thread and wowhead reading everything I can on this topic. Atm I'm 300 smithing and trying to decide for raid dps, which specialty will be better. With that being said, I'm a draenei (no +weapon skill =/ ).
Is it safe to make the following statements (based on reading)? 1. Orcs best weapon is axe post haste nerf. 2. For the rest, Axe is a better weapon at KZ/Gruul/SSC/TK lvls. 3. Once higher SSC/TK and BT/Hyjal is reached, the mace's scaling > axe's raw stats. Finally, for PVP does the stam on the 2H mace and stun proc provide a better pvp weapon then DW with BS mace or axe? Thank you for all the info to date! | |||||||||||
| #1852 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #1853 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Celetroll |
Ashtongue Trinket
Current theory stands that Ashtongue Talisman of Vision has 89% proc rate. But it think it is less. Let me explain.
As I understand from Bergs math, he assumes that buff is applied when ever SS hits. But in practice i have seen many SS hits that does not apply the buff. And reading the tooltip, it makes perfect sense - "Stormstrike has a 50% chance to grant up to 275 attack power for 10 sec." - each weapon has 50% chance to apply buff on SS hit. That would mean 50% x 50% = 25% miss chance? Following the same assumption that Berg made about parry/dodge, 5% of SS does not land at all. Doesnt it mean that proc rate is rather 71% not 89% that would bring AEP down to 195? In this case this trnklet would be more in line on other trinklets, still a clear winner (with melee haste nerf inc), but not an overpowered (nor bugged) one. Did some testing on ogres above Aldors (level 71 non-elites). Out of 50 SS i got: - 3 lost to ether parry/dodge/miss - 7 ss hits, but no buff applied I know that its not enough testing for solid statistics, but does show the pattern. Comments? | |||||||||||
| #1854 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | SentinelBorg |
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| #1855 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morninglory |
I use LS mostly for the extra damage. The way I look at it is the amount of mana restored by WS is insignificant compared to shamanistic rage, but the damage caused by LS is so mana efficient that I can't not use it. And it's just going to get so much better in 2.3.
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| #1856 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | funshinebear |
During raids I use Water Shield pretty regularly. I just did a quick check of our last TK run and mana gained from Shamanistic Rage was 58.5k and Water Shield was 11.5k.
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| #1857 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Durigen |
Water Shield is quite possibly one of the more powerful tools given to an enhancement shaman. While your shield may procc some extra damage for a piddly investment of mana, you get (I think) 4x the amount back. In long fights (>3 minutes) that can really add up to alot of mana. And one Shock or one good SS will out damage an entire LS - and cost less mana.
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| #1858 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Celetroll |
Water shield? Camoon, I´ll remind you, ench shaman is not a (prime) healer. Your DPS. IT is only good at Kaz'rogal in MH when you do not want to gimp yourself with shadowres. If you ever ever run into manaproblems, use manaspring totem. And tbh, if you have mana problems, you screwd up your rage timing. And if you didnt and you are still oom, check your gear - need to have more AP. Easy fix is bloodlust brooth you should only use together with shamanistc rage. Also, make sure you get battleshout + bom, and ola - 7k manaback becomes reality during 1 rage.
(my unbuffed AP is ~1500, raidbuffed @ shamanistc rage time ~3300, that makes rage tick me for 500+ mana ) | |||||||||||
| #1859 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda |
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Theres a topic about 2h vs DW in pvp on the pvp forum (cant miss it), I personally prefer DW. If you were to go 2h, out of the BS weapons, I'd pick the mace aswell. | |||||||||||
| #1860 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morninglory |
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Let's look at scenario again with 2800 AP, which equals 840 spell dmg. LS receives full spell damage / 3 per charge. Base dmg is 287 per charge + (840/3)280 = 567 Talents add 15% = 652 dmg per charge 652 * 3 = 1956 dmg for one cast of LS Now factor raid effects - Misery, (no SS since it is likely being eaten), chance to resist - averages to 1766 dmg 1766 / 460 mana (base cost with Mental Quickness) = 3.8 dmg per mana compared to Flame Shock 377 initial with 420 over the dot, the initial burst receives 15%, the dot 52% of spell dmg. at 840 this equals 503 and 856. The initial shock can crit, so we'll ave that at 528, for a total of 1384. Raid effects - misery, scorch, coe, resists = 1475 dmg. Assuming you have concussion, that brings it to 1549 Mana cost is 470 with mental quickness, for a dpm of 3.3 LS will beat FS by .5 dpm in this type of raid situation. Now at that point, you have to say, is it worth it to regen 297 mana over the course of X time, or to do 1766 dmg over that X time. ? You'd have to consider the frequency with which the charges would be consumed, the length of the fight, and whether time will be a factor in the use of that mana. Since you can assume you'll be able to regenerate your mana to full every 2 minutes, it may also depend upon the size of your mana pool and how fast you can use it up within that time. Then there's the consideration that I can pop a mana pot every two minutes and more than make up for using LS instead of WS, and thus I'm doing more damage. Assuming I'll never be completely oom, I opt to do more damage. It's the same reason that I ask for Blessing of Might instead of Wisdom. | |||||||||||
| #1861 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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| #1862 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Teirz |
Don't forget lightning shield do 100% threat while your melee damage is 85% threat. So at threat sensitive fight you would wanna reduce threat as much as possible instead.
Althought enh is not a prime healer, you might be saving a raid if happen that you go out from dps and heal the MT for a moment while your druid brez the dead healer. Don't forget that enh although weak in healing efficiency, able to swap weapon and gain +600-700 healing will still helps you to put out some good emergency healing, and it will just get better when 2.3 comes. Last edited by Teirz : 08/25/07 at 2:43 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1863 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Igniter |
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| #1864 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Viper |
I could see Naj'entus's tidal shield doing it, but the shadow bolts from Teron are performed by those "Doom Blossoms" and not even him.
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| #1865 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Rob |
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I always drop Mana Spring anyway unless a resist or cleansing totem's needed (as well as Searing every 2m, and Fire Nova if I'm too threat-capped to shock). It's a minimal improvement, but if you're not twisting you should have GCDs to spare, so... Last edited by Rob : 08/25/07 at 3:12 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1866 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Igniter |
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| #1867 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.2 | Brum |
Deleted, linked to post with inaccurate data
Last edited by Brum : 10/08/07 at 10:09 PM. Reason: Linked to poor post | |||||||||||
| #1868 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Chutoi |
I'm afraid I'm a little behind the times. I was under the (apparently) mistaken impression that frostbrand was actually superior to fire on our weapons. Could someone help unconfuse me?
![]() I'm guessing I should be switching to fire instead of frost for fights. I'm currently using the merciless gladiator main hand and offhand fist weapons. That means my offhand is faster than my main hand. Would I be better off using dual WF? I'd expect, given the analysis here, that I'd be better off using WF and fire (vs frost?) unless I choose to use a slower weapon in my offhand. Has the analysis between frost and fire already been run? Thank you, guys! | |||||||||||
| #1869 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Xoya |
To my understanding, you'll still be better off using windfury on your offhand. The analysis of Flametongue Weapon was done with the upcoming talent changes in mind (and these won't be coming till the expansion I think).
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| #1870 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Toots Hepcat |
I think the theory suggests you're better off choosing a slower weapon NOW -- just go to the AH and buy any green 2.6 OH, regardless of its stats and what you're replacing. I replaced [Guile of Khoraazi] with some 61 dps Of The Owl axe and saw a modest dps gain. Even if you don't replace your weapon, there's still a decent gain to be had by using WF on your fast OH.
A shaman I used to guild with swears by WF and Frostbrand for PvP, says the slowing effects of the proc are more than worth the drop in dps. I use a 2H in PvP and I'm no good, so IDK. As for shields -- I do use water shield but i'm not religious about keeping it up because I don't see that big of a gain in most fights. I know it can be measurable in some raid situations -- that's why i put it up -- but overall it's not going to make or break a fight, just push off the need to down a pot. And any way you look at it, +15% to LS is 2 talent points better wasted elsewhere. | |||||||||||
| #1871 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
Late reply as I was out all day registering for wedding gifts.
For those saying water shield doesn't tick in any fight, every SSC/TK parse that I've got shows it going off 19-25 times per boss fight - That's between 6-9 refreshes of the shield during the fight and around 2k mana returned. I'm just gonna lay it all out here - if you're claiming otherwise, you're being damned silly and defending a really stupid point. Water Shield is a fantastic raid ability for enhance shaman, period. Lightning shield is great too, I've started using it recently and it procs just as frequently I've found. | |||||||||||
| #1872 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Paradox |
hi, i'd like some opinion on belts.
I currently have the option of getting belt of the black eagle or belt of deep shadow crafted, i'm currently using the epic lv70 honour-bought belt. unbuffed I have 1436 AP, 155Hit, 29.28% crit, I think the deep shadow belt is the superior option (mostly for the extra +hit), but i'd like some input before I dump 20 primals into it. thanks, also great thread.. read it every day. (apologies if this is the wrong place to ask this, I just don't know where else to go) black eagle crit: 0.68 + 0.12 + 0.77 + 0.18 = 1.75% AP: 66 + 8 + 8 = 82 deep shadow crit: 1.28 + 0.12 = 1.4% AP: 66 + 8 + 8 = 82 Hit: 1.14% (this is including the suggested gems in the first post) Last edited by Paradox : 08/26/07 at 12:27 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1873 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Rob |
Deep Shadow is easily superior to Black Eagle. The question at this point for SSC/TK level gear would be Deep Shadow vs. One-Hundred Deaths. We're pretty much waiting for some research to finish up on the effect of weapon skill.
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| #1874 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Gulvan |
I currently use the ashtongue rep trinket and I can verify that it procs around 75-85%. If a SS is dodged or missed the rate lowers. During a sharaz attempt I checked the buff, and it was up all the time except once over a 3min(or so) attempt except of course when it was dodged, parried(lol sharaz) or missed. Just letting you know my experience.
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| #1875 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | mek |
Water shield is fickle, and there's no rhyme or reason as to what will or will not proc it. Some fights with heavy scripting (eg. Kael) will proc it randomly and constantly, even when you're not being hit; other fights, like Lurker, will completely refuse to proc it, despite all the AOE damage you're taking. It's damn random, but it definitely procs frequently enough to be worth casting, regardless of the instance you're in.
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| #1926 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob |
Last edited by Rob : 08/27/07 at 8:05 PM. Reason: clarity | |||||||||||
| #1927 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malevolencia | ||||||||||||
| #1928 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob | ||||||||||||
| #1929 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1930 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror |
Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 11:43 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1931 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1932 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Timmervargen | ||||||||||||
| #1933 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror | ||||||||||||
| #1934 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1935 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror | ||||||||||||
| #1936 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror | ||||||||||||
| #1937 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1938 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror | ||||||||||||
| #1939 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror | ||||||||||||
| #1940 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol | ||||||||||||
| #1941 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Apsalar | ||||||||||||
| #1942 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror |
Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 3:09 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1943 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | s315h1n |
Head Enchants
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| #1944 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1945 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob | ||||||||||||
| #1946 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol | ||||||||||||
| #1947 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Apsalar | ||||||||||||
| #1948 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror | ||||||||||||
| #1949 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Apsalar | ||||||||||||
| #1950 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Celetroll | ||||||||||||
| #2001 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
It's 96 aep average. I think it used to be assumed 30% uptime, if you look at 26.6% it's 313.76x.266=83.46 average aep.
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| #2002 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
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| #2003 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Zerath |
Thank you Rava and Malan.
Now, back to the awesome Dragonstrike Vs. Wicked Edge of the Planar: If Dragonstrike is really ~25% proc rate, wouldn't it be better to push for Wicked Edge instead? It being almost 11aep more. Granted, the proc on DS is insane and would increase white damage....Should I just assume 30% proc rate as Rava explained from here on out? | |||||||||||
| #2004 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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| #2005 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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This happens to all items with procs - their AEP value depends on how much haste you have. Similarly, AEP value for 1 haste rating depends on how many items with procs you have. | |||||||||||
| #2006 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Zerath |
So, in the situation of not having any Haste items to be able to increase the upkeep percentage, would it be better off going with the Wicked Edge?
My situation - working towards either Planar Edge or Dragonstrike. The equipment on my toon consists of Greens/Kara/high end blues. I may never see Hyjal or BT, but getting vortexes shouldn't be an issue in the coming month(s). Trying to break down each of the main blacksmithing weapons to see which is better overall. | |||||||||||
| #2007 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Muj |
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| #2008 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Bragor |
Haste + Armor Stacking
I have been trying to determine whether stacking haste + armor reduction is the way to go once you hit 33% crit unbuffed... trying to formulate an excel sheet but I am finding it terribly random for each boss encounter.
The main Problems is that each creature will have it's own armor value in which ignore armor (IA) & we won't know the exact armor value until extensive formulating of the each creatures armor type. I will post more once I did finishing my research (1 week off college = More time spent theroycrafting). Main concern is... Is it worth it stacking haste & armor reduction after reaching a certain amount of AP/Crit? | |||||||||||
| #2009 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
Haste is definitely worth increasing if you already have a lot of AP/Crit. Refer to cube/square examples several pages back. Armor reduction - well, it depends not only on what stats you already have but what boss you are fighting against.
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| #2010 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Xoya |
Here's a thought on how to calculate a value (something we can at least input into Pawn) for -armor on items. We all know that the actual value of the stat scales higher as the base armor of the boss/mob in question decreases. We could just find the lowest possible value of the stat (i.e. highest armor bosses/mobs) and just use that, at least to give us a baseline for consideration of how good the stat is. Thoughts?
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| #2011 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Keisos |
First time post here, I was wondering what the benefits / mechanics behind using two 2.8 speed weapons would be, I looked through the topic for a while, but after spending some time doing so, I realized the chances of me finding what I was looking for was going to be a needle in a haystack.
I've seen a lot of information regarding the use of a 2.6 - 2.8 speed weapon together in different combinations; but haven't seen much regarding the use of two weapons of identical speed, to be more specific, Using x2 Syphon of the Nethrezim vrs. Using 1 and a Rising Tide together. It would make a lot of sense, the ability to get both weapons to be as close to 1.5 speed using haste, the extra flurry tick from Identical Speed, and the maximum damage from Stormstrike, but I was wondering, all the posts I've seen that mention using identical speed weapons never have it as their focal point, I was wondering if their was a conversation on it regarding shamans specifically (I read the flurry post, but this forum hasn't talked about it at all from what I've seen) Maybe I'm missing something obvious, are there any hidden side effects to using them as opposed to mixing weapon speeds (Less Mainhand flurry consumption from using a faster weapon, wf desyncing your weapon speeds?) I guess what I'm asking is, between another syphon or rising tide, which should I pick up as my next weapon and why, any help with this is extremely appreciated. Shikka asked this question in post #914, but it only had one or two directly corresponding replies, and I didn't grasp why matching weapon speed seemed like such a bad idea. | |||||||||||
| #2012 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | panny |
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I'm not sure how much the proc will be worth after the haste nerf, but I've found the maces to be superior to weapons with higher DPS/better stats (memory's a bit hazy, but I think it was [Drakefist Hammer] vs. [Fool's Bane]). Also... I love procs. When I pop Bloodlust, I'm almost guaranteed to get my mace to proc, which almost guarantees my DST to proc, which almost guarantees double Mongoose. Then I trinket, pop a trinket, haste pot and get a friendly LWer to pop drums of battle, all of which get additional gains from being active at the same time. | |||||||||||
| #2013 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Suazo |
has anyone done any calculations for the upcoming haste nerf as far as trinkets go?
Our guild is currently progressing through SSC/TE (Al'ar first kill tonight!) and i'm wondering if I should still be saving DKP for that possible Dragonspine drop or if I can move onto Tsunami Talisman. Also wondering where [Dragonstrike] will rank after the haste change, as well as OH comparison's since all of SSC/TE weapons are getting buffed soon as well. | |||||||||||
| #2014 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
I was thinking about how the haste nerf will affect my weapon choice, There is no way im switching to axes for wicked edge, for a start I cant be arsed to do 10 heroics for badges, then there is the little matter of going into ssc/tk which there is no point to do so for my guild.
So im at the point where I think perhaps I would change my MH (Dragonstrike) to a 2nd syphon if it ever drops. But givent he lack of stats on the syphon I thought about Rising tides, how does the difference between top end range (313 vs 365) and the 0.2 slower speed compare. The stats on rising tide are obviously very nice and would give me an extra 42 hit and 88 if I was duel wielding them, with the loss of the syphon proc (pretty poor imo) and whatever the difference is between the speeds and top end. Is this even measurable? (is that even a word?) | |||||||||||
| #2015 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Dukanull |
@stig- rising tide is unique, i would kill to dual wield them as an orc.
My GUESS would be two syphons beating out pretty much any other weapon combo post 2.2, but just a guess. __________________ Vindication-wow.com Last edited by Dukanull : 08/31/07 at 5:37 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2016 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #2017 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Strawberry |
A specific question
Hey guys,
I suppose i'm the equivalent of a long time listener, first time caller here ![]() I've been keenly reading the discussion of relative weapon speeds for shamans, which has really helped push my DPS up. Now, i've run into a specific issue which confuses me, as I'm bloody awful at maths. My guild's got to the point where Khara is a farm-fest, where the people going are only looking for maybe one item from one boss. Thus, the other night, despite a total lack of Fool's bane and Decapitator, I walked away with Malchazeen in my trousers. Exciting. A 91 DPS dagger with a 1.8 speed. You'd think that would be good for a Melee DPS person. But, as I read the forum, apparently not. My question is this - if i put Malchazeen in my MH, and my Boggspine knuckles in my OH, will my DPS go up from my current MH - Stormreaver warblades? The whole weapon speed thing leaves me deeply confused I must say. As far as i can tell slow = best for OH & MH. But will a fast MH be per se bad? Especially if it's replacing a blue with 15 less DPS? Also, i'm on the cusp of getting a Runic Hammer - Would Malchazeen MH/Runic Hammer OH be better than Malchazeen/Boggspine or Stormreaver/Boggspine? Btw, thanks in general for all the hard work on the maths guys. You've done a great job of not only doing the calculations, but also making them easily accesible to the layman. You've enabled me to beat the two other shamans in my guild who insisted flametounge, GoA and + hit were all the best for shamans. They can't argue with being lower down the DPS charts time and again. Basically, you're great ![]() Strawbs | |||||||||||
| #2018 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Touf |
Your answer's in the first post...read it. It's nicely sectioned for you. I wish all threads had quality maintenance like this.
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| #2019 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Gnus | ||||||||||||
| #2020 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Strawberry |
Touf,
i assume what you mean is the phrase in the first post; "As noted above, damage from WF and SS are not normalized to weapon speed. Slow/Slow will always outperform any combination of Fast/Slow, Slow/Fast, or Fast/Fast when both weapons are imbued with WF." Presumably, "always" means "always" but it's so incredibly counter-intiutive that I thought I would ask the question. If it does mean "always" then is a 2.6 green better than an epic 1.8 as a Main Hand? for that matter, if "always" means "always" is a 2.6 speed grey mainhand I buy from an anvilmar vendor better than an epic dagger? The posts are very clear on OHs - but MH is a little opaque. I understand that a slow MH is better for a variety of reasons; Yes, i did read carefully before posting. My question was - in a situation with a 20 DPS difference between a fast weapon and a slow weapon, is it still advantageous to use the slow weapon? I know this is true for OH, having read the posts but what about for MH? An advanced search for topics on MH speed on the thread reveals little. I'm only asking because I think it's something that is genuinely confusing. | |||||||||||
| #2021 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
@Strawberry - hold onto the Malchazeen in your bank until the spell dmg talent change comes in 2.3, then if you don't have a better OH by then you can put FT on the dagger and use it. By using the dagger MH you'd gain 15 Weapon DPS, but you'd lose a lot of instant attack damage from WF and SS.
You can always do a 5-10 min test on the blasted lands mobs with each combination to check, I'd put my money on the 2.6 still outpacing the malchazeen though. | |||||||||||
| #2022 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Strawberry |
Ah, thanks.
I'll do a test and we'll see. Part of me was hoping someone had already done the legwork, but, meh, i'll have to do some work rather than just be told i'm wrong ![]() Two things - 1.) Is there any reason to test specifically in the blasted lands? Or is that just a long standing joke? 2.)I'll be pleasantly surprised it if the shaman spell damage talent appears in it's hinted at form, but by then a hotfix will mean we'll probably be buffing melee holy priests with GoA and arguing that sentry totem has better synergy with holy fire ![]() | |||||||||||
| #2023 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
The mobs in the blasted lands near the crystals cannot be killed, thats why we use them. Other option is to get a tank and a healer and use a Halaani guard, but that's a bit risky (PvP) and you need to have some nice people willing to help you out.
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| #2024 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Paradox |
Is it alright to ask gear questions in this thread? It's possibly the best place to ask since you will all know better than anywhere else, but I think it's just for theorycrafting the mechanics and such?
Anyway this is my dilemma.. our guild has 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK down, and all the new gear options I am having open to me are an increase in AP and Crit, but less or no +hit at all. My current stats are as follows: AP:1478, Hit Rating: 155, Crit: 29.56%. I picked up Boots of Effortless Striking, which gives me an increase of +8 AP, and 0.34% crit, but I completely lose out on 1.08% Hit rating from my Fiend Slayer Boots. What's the best to use? There's a few things like this where I gain a small amount of AP and Crit, but lose a lot of hit, basically how much hit can I drop and when does the added AP/Crit outweigh the loss of hit? Another example of this would be Ancestral Ring of Conquest, replacing my Violet Signet I will gain +8 AP and 0.84% crit, but a loss of 1.00% Hit, I really hope someone can help me out here..thank you. | |||||||||||
| #2025 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Touf |
Malan answered most of it.
Basically, if you use a faster weapon, your extra attacks from WF are weaker. With no cooldown, you would get more procs to compensate. However, with a cooldown, you're basically getting a few more procs that are much weaker. The exact dps point a fast weapon would be better is unknown, especially since calculating the effect of the cooldown is...hard. The OH thing was mentioned because there are already a lot of choices for the MH, but an uninformed shaman might want to use Malchazeen because it feels like an upgrade when OH drops aren't coming from heroics. | |||||||||||
| #2051 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
I've got good news and bad news.
The good news is the old value for DST was a bit on the low side, with 40% uptime(I'd used 1.5 ppm since we didn't have uptime meter) and valuing haste at 2.2(I'd used 2.0 originally) the current version scores a whopping 300 AEP. The bad news; I just finished testing DST uptime on the PTR(then on live for comparison) and according to my 30min test the proc rate has been lowered substantially. I measured 22.79% uptime over the 30mins. That seemed pretty startling so I repeated the test on the live realms and with identical gear and testing as close to the same as I can manage it scored 41.88%. I 'm sure the sample is small enough for there to be some pretty significant variation, but I'd be surprised if that much of a difference came down to chance. For the testing I swapped out all my passive haste and haste-proc gear so the haste nerf itself should have a fairly minimal impact in the results. Here's the screenshots: PTR - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-ptr.jpg Live - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-live.jpg If my results are an accurate assessment of the proc rate then the new score using 1.48 for haste(which I think is a bit high) would be about 150 AEP. If the lower proc rate had been noted elsewhere I apologize in advance for not seeing it. ps. The new windfury graphic is terrible. | |||||||||||
| #2052 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Idioteque |
With regard to the weapon choice discussion after the new patch,
would the best bt/hyjal weapon combo be Rising tide main hand and Syphon off, as you gain the benefit with a very marginally faster main hand and you gain the stats from the rising tide. Any one have any ideas? | |||||||||||
| #2053 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
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Technically having the Rising Tide in MH and Syphon in OH is superior over Syphon in MH. Dual Syphon is fine too. The difference is well below 1% DPS, we're talking ~5 DPS max. Last edited by Tornhoof : 09/01/07 at 7:24 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2054 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
And what is the consensus on DS/Syphon vs Rising tide/Syphon after the patch.
I would have thought the difference marginal but I don't recall any number crunching. | |||||||||||
| #2055 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | undefined |
Looking for options on the Dragonstrike Mainhand now. After the Haste nurf would it be worth it to get a MainHand that offers Stats ?? More AP/Crit and some hit over the Haste proc on the weapon?
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| #2056 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nemaa |
I finished reading the last 20 pages I missed during my vacation and I have some questions/ideas about what Yo! bring up (The AEP value of stats are different in each stat setup).
I'm thinking about an addon what calculates AEP values for every stat based on your current stats and prints the summary in each item's tooltip like Pawn's addon does. Is it possible to create a formula for the values of each stat based on the summary of the character's stats? | |||||||||||
| #2057 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ewichern |
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I'm in the process of levelling up blacksmithing, I'm not an Orc, and I'm wondering whether I should go with Axesmith over Hammersmith after the haste (and apparent proc %) changes... any speculation/opinions? | |||||||||||
| #2058 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Makesha |
I'm really interested in this as well. We sort of had a huge discussion about this in my guild today, and the end result was that we agreed to disagree. Passive stats of Wicked Edge of the Planes vs. Haste proc of Dragonstrike, which is better after the patch? And is it a margin that matters hugely? (I mean, is one like 100 DPS better than the other on average, or are they both good bets for specialization?) I'd figure it out myself, but I'm not good enough at the math to do it..
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| #2059 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Paradox |
Recently hit 375 BS and just finished making my Dragonmaw today, soon to be a Dragonstrike. I'd be interested in this aswell, *roughly guessing* the haste will just give a bit less haste right? Down to about 15% from 20%? Which is still pretty good I think.. but would be interested in what the number crunchers have to say about it.
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| #2060 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror |
hey guys-
I'm lookin for a link that shows the dps increase in group with a shaman in group. Either I'm blind or it isn't in the OP anymore. I think it was the chart that compared the GoA vs. Windfury. If someone can point me in the right direction of the post I'm seeking, it will be greatly appreciated ![]() | |||||||||||
| #2061 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nazgull |
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20,17% (Old) (before 2.2) i got dragonstrike for long time now and 13.45% haste is enough for me to keep dragonstrike as MH and syphon as OH. no one actully gave answers about how good slower OH is vs slower MH, i think slower OH . tested it myself around 50-100dps more with slower OH in a 10 min mob bashing but again you cant be 100% sure this is why u need alot of shamans to test it | |||||||||||
| #2062 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Igniter |
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| #2063 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drewkrodleman |
If you guys find time, I need some advice... For the longest time I stayed with a slow mainhand and a fast offhand for two reasons:
1) Fast offhands were all that were available to me (good ones at least) 2) I did not honestly believe the math Well my first week of kara I got emerald ripper and was pleasantly delighted. Put mongoose on it and stayed with that for 5 whole weeks. I then realized that my dps was barely scaling with my gear, so I came to these forums saw all the math and theorycrafting and decided to give it a go. So I bought a 2.6 speed LVL 67 63dps mace on the ah for a few gold, and I was absolutely SHOCKED at what happened. I began out damaging people in our guild who are FAR better geared and have much better weapons then me, consitantly (before it was random but I would always be fairly close to the #1). So then I started looking around for better offhands, and I realized that I am basically screwed. Ive become fairly apathetic to really putting a lot of effort into this game, so I realized that arenaing for 10weeks just to get a 97dps offhand, although worth it, may be too much work. I also looked at having runic hammer made, but saw that it was 2.4 speed, and dont really know if itll work well with a 2.6 speed mh. Any suggestions? Should I just suck it up and try to scrap a decent arena rating and play 10 matches a week for that long just to get it (my guild wont be progressing to The Eye anytime soon), or should I just farm for a week or two, grab enough cash to have someone make runic hammer? Also, thanks to you guys, I am basically 100% guaranteed a raiding spot as long as I show up because of my mad dps. I like humbling our decently geared fury warrior with my 2 not-as-amazing-weapons-as-his <3 | |||||||||||
| #2064 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Aeolian |
To the poster above me, there is a list of off hands in the original post, read it.
And if anyone comes up with some information on the Dragonstrike please post it, personally I'm taking the time before the patch to gather the materials for Wicked Edge. Don't know for sure yet, but I think I may make the switch. Going to play around with Dragonstrike on the PTR and see what happens. Edit: Blizzard made my off-hand smaller. lol Last edited by Aeolian : 09/01/07 at 6:28 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2065 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drewkrodleman |
Oh yeah Didnt see that this weapon > this > that > these > those the first time i read the first page.
So I would do well just to quickly make the money and have someone make Runic hammer? Or would it be better to just truly grind out the arena points to get the merc glad one hands? | |||||||||||
| #2066 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Beroll |
I'm still asking myself if Rod of the Sun King's slightly increased damage (and 20ap) is worth sacrifing the stats on Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver? I'm not only talking about 19crit- and 10hitrating but also about losing 33stamina.
While I see why Rising Tide and Syphon of the Nathrezim are upgrades (also even Rising Tide is giving me a hard time compared to Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver) Rod of the Sun King looks way weaker to me. Has this been discused yet? | |||||||||||
| #2067 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Bragor |
Well the main problem with the Rod of the Sun king is that it has a proc that is utterly useless for shamans (Unless blizz changes the proc chance to provide mana).
Would like taking it over the fury warriors then ? ![]() Also, If you have the option of getting the Rod... You have both the rising tide & syphon (Which are both better) Seeing that It's only 2 bosses diffrence & both bosses are easier then kael. Last edited by Bragor : 09/01/07 at 6:36 PM. Reason: Clarfiying | |||||||||||
| #2068 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Aeolian |
Just did some quick testing on the PTR and Live for overall DPS for a 10 minute period (basically a boss fight) for the Dragonstrike haste proc.
DPS on live showed 995.7 dps with a 27.47% uptime. DPS on the PTR showed 944.1 dps with a 26.88% uptime. This cant be taken as a perfect example of the nerf, but it shows it. - Crit rate was right around 36% for both tests. - Attack power was the same, no modifiers with the exception of Unleashed Rage. - Unleashed Rage, Flurry and Lightning Speed proc rates would effect the outcome. - No shocks were used. - Grace of Air was the only totem used. Used Recount, Uptime Meter and WF3sec for tracking purposes. Tried to follow the same "wait for the WF cooldown" rules for Stormstrike that I do during raids, but used it every time it was up. | |||||||||||
| #2069 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Malan |
Whoah whoah... what's this about a new windfury graphic?
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| #2070 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Aeolian |
Get on the PTR and play with it. =P
Basically its a darker vortex, its more black then gray, a bit more transparent and swirls up higher. | |||||||||||
| #2071 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Bragor |
Hey... Just got back from checking it.
It's like saying "HEY I GOT A WF PROC HERE". Think I am gonna miss "Hey.. how the hell did you kill me ?" looks in pvp now ;/ | |||||||||||
| #2072 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Xoya |
So now that I've downloaded Pater's simulator and configured it, I am wondering how exactly I could utilize this to create my own Pawn string based on my gear level and buffs I typically have. Any advice, or in my following of this thread did I miss a how-to at some point?
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| #2073 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Wowzers | ||||||||||||
| #2074 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Kurisu |
Last edited by Kurisu : 09/02/07 at 3:47 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2075 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Freyj |
+hit?
I am having a small issue here. I recently got asked by my guild to switch from resto to enhance (yay!), and I found this thread. Its excellent, but I am looking for a hard number answer. What is the minimum +hit for a shaman in MAG\SSC? I have about 153 (dont check my armory ATM, I had to heal for kara this weekend LOL), but thats because I put alot of those Rigid Dawnstones in my gear. About where should I be?
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| #2076 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis |
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OpenOffice: http://grig.shackspace.com/enh-pawn.ods Excel: http://grig.shackspace.com/enh-pawn.xls Pretty much just fill in the gray boxes across the top with the stats you want to use then run each step through the sim and record the results in the gray column on the right. It doesn't spit out a properly formatted pawn string and it might have errors but it seems to work. A couple notes, it has the new value for haste, and it doesn't actually calculate the change in mitigation dynamically so the armor stuff is only accurate if you start at 30%. Also, if you don't use any passive haste you'll probably want to ignore it in there. | |||||||||||
| #2077 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Rob |
Based on the apparent value of weapon skill (first 5 points = 2-3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-dodge/anti-parry) and the availability of Mace/Axe skill (Mace found on at least one belt right now, Axe on nothing unless you've got the Orc racial), I'd have to say you should go for the mace. (The other advantage here is you can craft a Skillherald for PvP.)
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| #2078 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | oldmandennis | ||||||||||||
| #2079 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tristan |
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__________________ Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more) RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe) ![]()
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| #2080 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | TradewindKlaatubarada |
A couple questions:
Been trying repetively to reset autoattack with T5 bonus but it doesn't seem to work at all. Next swing happens randomly (?). Still, been trying to press autoattack when I'm already in melee range of the mob (so both weapons can hit since second 0) and still can't seem to get hits at the same time for same speed weapons. There has been any conclusion on this? | |||||||||||
| #2081 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Abrax |
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So, if I was rolling with 1250 AP, 24.5% crit, 9% hit from talents and 196 Hit rating, how much hit rating should I drop down to? | |||||||||||
| #2082 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Wowzers |
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| #2083 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Aeolian |
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If I'm wrong someone please correct me. | |||||||||||
| #2084 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ujai |
just one quick question concerning t4 (and yes, i know it's not the best pieces of gear):
am I right to see the 4p bonus as a 8 dps increase at 30% crit (with 40 extra damage per weapon and ss swing)? | |||||||||||
| #2085 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Disquette |
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40dmg/weap * 1.5 (dual weilding) * 1.30 (crit) * .94 (dodge) = 73.32 dmg/10sec = 7.3 dps __________________ ----- sig --------------- Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/ "Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan | |||||||||||
| #2086 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | panny |
It's an extra 30 damage per weapon, isn't it? Also, I don't think the offhand reduction applies to the bonus damage.
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| #2087 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Disquette |
I can't test because I don't have the gear. If anyone could do so, that'd be nice. Grab 2 1.2 or 0.9 dps weapons, and it should be easy to see exactly how it works.
__________________ ----- sig --------------- Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/ "Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan | |||||||||||
| #2088 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Diogo |
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| #2089 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Giske |
Sorry if this has already been answered in this thread, but I have a question regarding hit chance for enhancement shamans. Our resident enhancement shaman has 18% hit, 9% from talents and 9% from gear. We are however getting WWS parses of him having 14-15% miss on his white damage which we cant quite explain when rogues with equal hit% are getting 9-10% miss. And yes the rogue in question is made of suck for having so low +hit.
Has anyone else seen this and is there an explanation why? | |||||||||||
| #2090 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
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Is it in Hyjal and he isnt being decursed? Can you submit a WWS parse to look at? | |||||||||||
| #2091 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Giske |
He is attacking from behind (standing next to rogues), its consistent in every instance.
I'll post some of our recent WWS: Kael'thas, Vashj, Rage, Anetheron Full TK clear Full SSC clear And yes, we suck at SSC. | |||||||||||
| #2092 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Cesar2000 |
Everything seems right... over the full SSC parse he's got 6% miss, 5% dodge, and 1% parry.
With 18% hit and a 24% cap, 6% miss is spot on. 5% dodge is of course also what it should be. | |||||||||||
| #2093 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Mano |
hmm, I'm not totally sure how WWS works in this regard.
But I see he dropped some searing/magma/fire elemental/fire nova totems but there's no damage recorded for them. IIRC I've recently seen SCT/SCTD float the searing totem's damage as "attack", which might lead to WWS parsing this damage as normal melee damage. But as it is spell damage it would probably suffer from the normal spell hit penalty against higher level targets, which might explain the miss rate. Edit: or not (see next post). Last edited by Mano : 09/03/07 at 11:20 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2094 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Giske |
Its not really feasible to record damage from those since there are several shamans in the raid, the values would be all wrong.
And omg, I cant believe I didnt notice that WWS sums up miss, dodge and parry into one %. I feel really stupid now. >< Sorry for the idiot question. | |||||||||||
| #2095 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Cownoris |
Has any analysis been done of the new WF totem mechanic?
Now that it can only proc on white attacks or special attacks that use your normal attack (e.g. heroic strike) how does it compare to Agi totem? If anyone has solid numbers of how much dps it provides to different classes/specs I'd appreciate it. | |||||||||||
| #2096 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ vank |
You do not have to read but a few pages back to find the answers you seek.
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| #2097 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Mr Tazza |
Hey guys, I got Kaz'Rogal down for the first time today, but experienced some really serious mana problems.
I have about 7500 mana raidbuffed, and I went like this: - 1st mark: super mana pot - 2nd: SR - 3rd: both on cooldown - 4th: super mana pot just in time - 5th: couldn't keep up and exploded I wasn't using any shock during the fight to conserve mana, and JoW was up. How do you do it? I don't think Demonic Runes are enough to keep up anyway, the only thing I can think about is running out and suiciding after 4th mark ![]() | |||||||||||
| #2098 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shabadu |
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| #2099 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ♦ Sebudai |
I wear a couple pieces of SR gear. Using the Super Mana Potion after the first unresisted mark is correct, but I wouldn't use SR until you've taken two more unresisted marks after the first. SR is a full mana bar for me, easily, and using it when you're down only 3000-4000 mana is a waste.
Lastly, make sure you're using Mana Shield and getting JoW. | |||||||||||
| #2100 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Patrik |
I'm wearing few sr items (even ±120sr makes this fight quite a different experience) and I personally am using fel mana potions, which work just great.
Last edited by Patrik : 09/04/07 at 2:47 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1306 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | falonub | ||||||||||||
| #1307 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol | ||||||||||||
| #1308 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1309 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shabadu | ||||||||||||
| #1310 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Lorven |
two handed weapons?
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| #1311 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malevolencia | ||||||||||||
| #1312 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Lujaar | ||||||||||||
| #1313 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nazgull | ||||||||||||
| #1314 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tambard |
Wondering a few things...
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| #1315 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | david0925 | ||||||||||||
| #1316 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tambard | ||||||||||||
| #1317 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava | ||||||||||||
| #1318 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1319 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sebudai | ||||||||||||
| #1320 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol | ||||||||||||
| #2226 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
I'm fairly certain that's not what I did, not to mention that the derivation used is simply a copy of a formula derived pre-TBC that was widely accepted.
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| #2227 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ekto |
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i should consider the total dps and not just the incremental changes. let D be your dps without a boot enchant. then for the minor run speed to be better we need the following... (D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08) which simplifies to T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A) where k = 1/1.08. my model, for example, gives A = .16286, and so we have T < (.07581D + 1.074) t so i was off by that extra term - 0.07581D. so lets use some actual data. i believe i do between 900 and 1000 dps on azgalor. so for that fight, we have T < 76.88t the fight lasts for about 5-6 minutes i think. so for 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds, which are conditions certainly met on azgalor. so the original poster on this topic has a correct conclusion but slightly flawed derivation. | |||||||||||
| #2228 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Shabadu |
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You're also going to be fighting with rogues for trinkets, especially Dragonspine Trophy. It's worth laying off their leather to keep equal footing for some trinkets, cloaks and jewelry. The whole thing is really dependent on the way your guild handles loot and the players involved anyway. | |||||||||||
| #2229 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
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| #2230 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | MrProcrastin8 |
Sorry to still be the forum noob, but, to help convince my guildies, I'm going to do the tests myself. But I need help on exactly how to do it. I'm doing 5 minute tests in the blasted lands. I'm just putting on autoattack while having healing stream and stoneskin down to help survive the 5 minutes. I'm not stormstriking, because I don't think my mana can sustain for that long. So far, I'm getting better results with the two daggers. I know not stormstriking may have something to do with that, but not sure how to figure that in without going oom. Also, I figure I have to do each test more than once, I'm thinking 3 of each should be sufficient.
There's obviously something I'm missing. Help ![]() | |||||||||||
| #2231 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Shabadu |
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Water shield returns enough mana for a Stormstrike in roughly 10 seconds. Between spirit ticks and Water shield, you'll never run out of mana just SSing. | |||||||||||
| #2232 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
More attacks = more chance to proc. Meaning that by excluding 2 attacks every 10 seconds via Stormstrike it is possible that you are seeing better results with the faster weapons (judging by your crit rate flurry is probably up 50%?, pretty unfair to exclude SS in this kind of test). It's been tested more times than people have asked, "WILL FT BE BETTER OH LOLZ????", but each person needs to do the tests themselves to be satisfied. Good luck to you on your endeavors!
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| #2233 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
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| #2234 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | hozzer |
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I've been adhering to the premise that the offhand must be as slow as or slower than the mainhand slavishly. Should this be tested further? If an offhand weapon that is .1 or .2 seconds faster is not appreciably detrimental to our DPS, but one that is 1 second or more is, does that mean that any combination of weapons above 2.0 speed (or rather above 1.5 speed when hasted) probably ok? | |||||||||||
| #2235 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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You do not need to find OH that is slower than MH. You need to find OH as slow as possible - feel the difference Out of 3 weapons that you have the best combo is Reflex MH + Mag'hari Fury Brand OH.Go to Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo put your stats in and change weapon speeds - you will see how it works. Last edited by Yo! : 09/06/07 at 8:47 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2236 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror |
Hey all...I can't seem to find the chart that shows group gains from a shaman. I believe there was a chart that compared GoA vs. Windfury. If someone can link me a chart that shows dps gains from shaman buffs, I'd love that. Ty in advance.
(I'm trying to show raid leader that having the druid in my group is more dps than another rogue while putting the druid in a group with 2 hunters lol). | |||||||||||
| #2237 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this right, but I think you might be trying to find justification to have GoA in your group?
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| #2238 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Shabadu |
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| #2239 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror |
lol i would never drop goa in raid. I was just referencing that chart cause it had the stats on it.
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| #2240 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Muj |
Hey I was browsing over my atlas loot last night checking out the tier 6 pieces in more detail and it occured to me that the itemization on tier 6 is quite different to tier 5. Tier 6 pieces drop a bit of hit rating and pick up more on crit and for some very odd reason, mp5. Is this possibly because blizzard has not changed it like they did with tier 4/5 earlier on in the year? And if so I wonder when they are going to change it.
At the moment I have 4/5 tier 5 and the 4 set bonus is just so good I can;t get over it, looking at the t6 set bonuses makes my eyes burn, like what do I need 10% off the shock costs with the up coming changes to shaman talents? And why would 70 more attack power be better than 5% more attack speed? Tier 6 just seems somewhat inferior to tier 5 in regards to itemization, the only piece I am going to want is the legs as they are vastly superior to the tier 5 ones. Has anyone else taken note of this yet? I am just wondering if my thoughts are correct because I am trying to get my head around what my end game raiding set will be. | |||||||||||
| #2241 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Nite_Moogle |
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| #2242 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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| #2243 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Teirz |
I wouldn't say NEVER drop GOA, but is situational for some mobile fight. For example for lurker fight my guild is using rouge/enh shaman to tank the adds so basically our melee group are all spread out beside maybe a rogue/war will be near me. Overall dps would be better by using goa than wf consider that for most time wf only benefits 1 rogue and while goa push both yourself and the rogue resulting a better dps output overall.
It's really depends on grouping and the fight itself. A question to Shabadu, have you tested on belt of one-hundred death for the weapon skill thingy? I assume it should be the best belt for non-orc enh shaman in my earlier post but i will need some testing to make sure it is true. Last edited by Teirz : 09/07/07 at 2:55 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2244 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nemaa |
The only fight I can drop GOA is Illidari Council. I get 2 hunters, a rogue and a tanking druid in my group. All other melee is tanking or interrupting heals so they don't really need WF because their damage is low anyway.
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| #2245 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Kaubel | ||||||||||||
| #2246 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | TradewindKlaatubarada |
I liked the sim. I found interesting that at higher level gear, crit gets it's value down. AP is a safe addition all the time. I've socketed all my BT/MH gear with red gems (ignoring +agil bonuses) and then socketed Belt of One-Hundred Deaths with green/blue gems, since I'll keep it for a long time. Altough I could've switched it with a red gem somewhere else, I'll keep the blue/green requirements for metagem there since I doubt I'll change that piece in a long time, whilst socketing +10 STR gems all over other parts.
Interesting data: ![]()
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Always choosing best AEP gear + socketing STR gems no matter what seems the way to go. Also looking forward to +damage/heal from AP. Definitely STR rocks the charts. Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 09/07/07 at 9:57 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2247 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Shabadu |
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Nope, we haven't been back to Vashj in months. Thank god I got the prism when I did. For lurker we have 2 prot warriors and a feral, so the melee are always in the center platform dpsing the male nagas. On council we go with myself, a rogue and a dps warrior on gaithos full time and the veras feral or warrior, and a PoH priest who deals with gaithos tank healing and group healing for the melee. Being on Gaithos full time I often have to twist tranquil so GoA would be non-viable. The hunters in our guild have a campaign to get the resto shamans to spec Imp GoA, since they only get them. | |||||||||||
| #2248 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nemaa |
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| #2249 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | TradewindKlaatubarada |
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Edit: remember not to use axes tho ![]() | |||||||||||
| #2250 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Shabadu |
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| #2301 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | T.K. |
Sup all,
Hey, we've been discussing the relation between Syphon/RT and such, but i didn't see any numbers with Strike/RT - Strike/Syphon in the way to point us if we should swap the Strike (for those BS out there) for the RT when we get the chance to it or not. I know the RT get's a higher AEP value than the Strike, but the proc now, before nerf, seems very overhealming to me. So, as people asked that and got no real focused answer on it (threads own minds, anyway), could we stick with this? Like, once u get the chance to grab RT, Syphon, should we change MH Strike for any of them or not or use Strike MH and RT OH or Syphon OH, anyway... Numbers? ![]() Edit: Just saw Stigmata armory and saw he's still using Strike in MH with Syphon OH. I was thinking about using the RT at offhand, but i'm in doubt as the Syphon speed is just lewt. any of u guys tried for RT OH compared to Syphon OH both with Strike at MH? Last edited by T.K. : 09/08/07 at 3:13 AM. Reason: Wrong name of OH | |||||||||||
| #2302 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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| #2303 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Beowolf |
/wave *just showing off new sig :P*
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| #2304 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | hellraiser |
I was curious, is haste rating on items stil as important after the patch ?, i mean item's like Bindings of Lightning Reflexes or Valestalker Girdle wouldend it be beter to replace them with others?
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| #2305 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Sebudai |
I believe this has been posted in this thread already, but haste rating after the patch is about as valuable to us as hit rating is now.
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| #2306 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | TradewindKlaatubarada |
Yes I was taking into account UR (100% uptime) and Ashtongue Talisman (80-90%).
I never stated to have 45% crit whilst having 3500 AP, those were stats I made out to point how crit decreased damage when stacked too much (using Yo's sim). I said: "I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit)" Here's the screen; discount both mongooses, add flask and str food. That's the 34xx AP and 38-40% crit I was talking about. And the screen is missing Bow Stitched Leggings with x3 +10 STR gems btw. http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4...idbuffssj0.jpg | |||||||||||
| #2307 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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| #2308 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | TradewindKlaatubarada |
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My original post was all about how agility (or crit rating) loses value at some point, then regains it. It was specifically about Yo's sim that shows some weird behaviour. Yes, agility is expected to lose value the higher crit gets, but no, it is not expected to go down then go up again (afaik). EDIT: on a sidenote, regarding Ashtongue Talisman. It doesn't affect Stormstrike at all (procs after, ends before) but does affect a WF triggered by Stormstrike? Haven't been able to determine this via combat log. Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 09/08/07 at 7:29 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2309 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Beroll |
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As long as you are wearing Axes the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths is not very interesting for example. And with the upcoming haste nerf I probably won't wear a single haste rating item. Most lists are also not taking stamina into account even though you need a lot of it in HS/BT. | |||||||||||
| #2310 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Guldkrull |
I was wondering if you guys consider it worth to get the merciless gladi helm instead of t4 helm or is it just a waste of points? And if the veteran bracers is better compared to the stalker bands from attumen in kara? This is probably 2 shit questions but i'm trying to get a gear together so i can start raid as an enhancement shaman.
Last edited by Guldkrull : 09/08/07 at 8:01 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2311 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | TradewindKlaatubarada |
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| #2312 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Guldkrull |
I think it's more of a matter of opinion. What i rly want to know is if you guys think it's worth to spend the arena points for the merciless helmet or just wait for the t4 head to drop and if it's worth to spend the honor points on the veteran bracer or just keep the bracers from attumen. It's not rly what i said but it was what i meant.
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| #2313 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Farnite |
So has anyone modeled the [Crystalforged Trinket]? Just curious, not sure how I should value + weapon damage.
Thanks | |||||||||||
| #2314 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | LazyJoe |
Well it's really easy, just divide the amount of +damage by your weapon speed, you get the corresponding dps gain, multiply this by 14 and you will get the equivalent in attack power.
If you wear a 2.6 speed weapon, you get : 7 / 2.6 = 2.69 dps 2.69 * 14 = 37.36 attack power | |||||||||||
| #2315 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
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| #2316 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malevolencia |
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However, you have to take account of the Offhand too. If both weapons are the same speed, the calculation given would be correct however if they aren't it's slightly different. Also, is the bonus halved on the offhand or not? I have no experience on that so have no idea.. E.g. if you have 3.0speed MH and Offhand, and the dmg bonus was +3 (to make math easier :p) then you're adding 1dps on MH and on OH, which is 14 AP.. Which is fine.. However, if it were 3.0 MH and 1.5speed OH. Then 14 AP has the effect of 3 dmg on MH and only 1.5dmg on OH. Thus a +3 dmg boost from item, is now better than 14AP. (since it gives +3 on both). This then is probably equal to AP according to the formula: So the correct formula for it is possibly: If the +7 dmg is halved on OH (this is likely the case): ((7 / MH-speed) + (3.5 / OH-speed) ) / 2 = avg dps added. Avg dps added * 14 = AP. If the +7 dmg is not halved on OH: ((7 / MH-speed) + (7 / OH-speed)*2) / 2 = avg dps added. avg dps added * 14 = AP | |||||||||||
| #2317 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
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| #2318 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Mordinm |
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Avg dps added * 14 /1.1 = AP would be closer to the mark I think. | |||||||||||
| #2319 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | T.K. |
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I've been reading this since page 1 started. Even before Malan made the piece of art that's in the front page. I've discussed stuff with Disquette by PM waaaaay before we reached so detailed discussion or even that his simulator was as know or good as it's now. i've read every single post or every single page of this thread and others AND there's no anwser to that question. ALL the comparisons between weapons were almost all the time made between RT and Syphon. And basically, if i wanted a comparison to AEP values i'd just sum the up and don't waste people's time and my time. What i asked for was people feelings about the weapon. We already now that the AEP of RT is higher than Strike, we already know that after patch haste will have a lower value, pretty close to what +hit equal for us now. What i'm saying and was asking, is that if people feels that the mace is and will still be better with the increased procs because of the haste proc and such. i think i saw like 2 or 3 posts with people saying that with some haste and Flurry up the uptime in Strike was basically the same in PTR. To me, saying that it has lower AEP than RT and that's it is like saying Flurry hastes the next X atks and that's it. We know it's not stone carved like that. | |||||||||||
| #2320 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Leveret |
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| #2321 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
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| #2322 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Leveret |
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Actually, the fundamental problem in that post is not that he added DPS instead of weapon damage. That was just a small problem compared to the other issue with that calculation: he didn't take into account the number of times Windfury would proc. The beauty of Windfury is that a slower weapon would have harder hitting procs, and a faster weapon would have more procs in a given time, such that the two factors balance each other out, resulting in a flat damage increase without needing normalization at all. Towards the end of that thread he admitted to the error of adding DPS to damage, but he never realized the error of failing to take into account the proc rate. In the last post he still believes that given a high enough attack power the Sunstrider Axe would overtake the epic in damage. But if he took into account the proc rate, he would see that the weapon speed actually drops out completely in the correct calculation for Windfury DPS, so a lower DPS weapon could never overtake a higher DPS weapon regardless of weapon speed. Last edited by Leveret : 09/09/07 at 2:00 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2323 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aezoc |
Or maybe he knows more about WF mechanics than you do. Seriously, read the first post. You really have no business commenting on enhancement mechanics if you don't understand something as fundamental as the 3 sec cooldown on WF.
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| #2324 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Leveret |
The 3 second cooldown is irrelevant in this simple calculation. Ironically enough, it is actually him who found out that despite the 3 sec cooldown Windfury is still proccing at around 20% rate when dual-wielding. I think it may very well be that those posts are made by a friend of his or something without his permission. Because he clearly knows too much about Windfury mechanics to be making such a fundamental mistake.
Last edited by Leveret : 09/09/07 at 2:22 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2325 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Spamy |
I was looking for some advice on which gear to choose so any help would be appreiated
My armory page with enhancment gear (will change back to elemental some time today so I'll list the gear etc) I have 1320 ap, 153, 27.19 crit unbuffed I'm using the Desolation Shoulders (w/ 2 6 str gems) with the Desolation Leggings that gives me 67 hit rating along however in an attempt to increase my ap I was thinking of getting the Forestwalker Kilt from MT and Cyclone shoulders from Maulgar this would give me 128 ap .20%ish more crit at the cost of 50 hit rating, I could also instead of putting either str/ & crit/str sockets use hit/str or hit sockets to try and make up for the loss of hit. What I really want to know is 103 hit too low or should I go for it, I used to be a guy who thought 200 hit was vital because that's what I had been told (I'm not very good at maths) and was rather confused when everyone started going on about not needing 200 anyway ;p | |||||||||||
| #2326 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | • Sebudai |
128 attack power (x 1 = 128 AEP)
4.42 crit rating (x 2 = 8.84 AEP) total: 136.84 AEP 50 hit rating (x 1.4 = 70 AEP) total: 70 AEP If you don't know what AEP is, the first post in this thread has all of the information you need. It will make your gear decisions much easier. I currently have 82 total hit rating, and at one point it was a lot lower. 103 is just fine. Hit rating gems are never the correct choice. Last edited by Sebudai : 09/09/07 at 9:12 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2327 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Spamy |
I'm not completely enhancement-braindead but I was wondering if 103 was too low causing me to miss more than I should be, thanks though
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| #2328 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Muj |
Has there been any theory crafting on ignore armor stats? I picked up a choker of serrated blades tonight from Bt and I like the look of it so far while being on Gorefiend.. if there has been some speculation could someone point me towards a post or a page number, thanks.
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| #2329 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hephaustus |
As far as I understand, armor penetration isnt a "linear progression" as is attack power, crit, or hit. This makes modeling it very difficult because the value gained from armor pen is based on the armor of the mob you are attacking. Against a mob with lower base armor, armor pen increases your damage a lot more then against a mob with higher base armor. This is because of the way that armor scales (i.e. as you get more armor the amount of mitigation per point of armor decreases.)
This presents a problem because armor isnt universal or available client-side, and it is difficult or impossible to accurately calculate a mobs armor without a LOT of data. That being said, i'd love to see some models/math for it, but sadly im not the man to do it. Also I do not know whether or not mobs are allowed to go into negative armor. | |||||||||||
| #2330 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Bullworth |
On the main page there is a link for Pawn, a customizable item calculator that helps in a weighted item decisions. I for one enjoy a GUI interface for my UI and looked for an alternative for Pawn and ran across ItemValue an ACE2 add-on (forum discussion), which for me wasn't working until a recent patch by the author. It has a simple input for flat values calculations, i.e. linear strings similar to Pawn equations. In addition this add-on has the option of non-linear equations for calculating stat values, which some stats seem to have.
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| #2331 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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And, no - mobs are not allowed to go into negative armor. So if your raid somehow manages to bring boss to 0 armor -armor will produce 0 benefit. | |||||||||||
| #2332 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin |
Looking through Rogue DPS Thread I found a link to post [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion where new Miss % and Weapon skill explained. It could be added to the 1st post.
We get 28%(!!!) misses on bosses. | |||||||||||
| #2333 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | hellraiser |
With the upcomming haste nerf, is Dragonstrike still n1 mainhand for a enhancement shammy?
or would it be beter with Rising Tide in MH and Syphon of the Nathrezim in OH? | |||||||||||
| #2334 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
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And yes, I'll be keeping my belt of 1000 deaths :-) | |||||||||||
| #2335 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Krish |
Having some trouble with Yo's simulator.
Yo,
The simulator you've put together should prove quite a bit more useful for quick calculations and adjustments than was previously available, so a big thanks. I am having one small issue which is preventing me from using it to its fullest. I currently use a Mac, and the default text for the Java applet is perhaps larger than the Windows default. This is pushing much of the text (and especially the resulting AEP values) outside the visible bounds of the Java frame. It also means the text boxes into which stats are entered do not show the whole number. I don't seem to be able to figure a way around this on the client side, but if you have a suggestion or could fix the server side, that would be a fantastic help to us Mac users. Thanks so much, Kresh | |||||||||||
| #2336 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Muj |
Why would you consider that? Honestly it amazes me why people don't want to go for double Syphons, it has 365 top end damage, the proc rate is about 15 ppm in a raid and it would allow for the best possible stormstrike and windfury crits in the game for us as a class...
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| #2337 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
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I modelled it using this shaman (applied raid buffs to him too) and it looks so that Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - Items - World of Warcraft would benefit him more (1061 dps) than his Valestalker Girdle - Items - World of Warcraft (1059 dps) even though his off-hand is an axe. If he would wear mace in off-hand his expected dps would be 1069. By the way - all critical switches and detailed report are available now in Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo in hope that you will come and play with it for some time Disquette as your other bug-report helped greatly ![]() Last edited by Yo! : 09/09/07 at 8:13 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2338 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Kreltok |
Even with the +23 top end damage over dragonstrike and the proc, is that enough to make up for the loss of the haste proc from dragonstrike?
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| #2339 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
I still can't get your sim to run on my Mac G5 Yo, even after updating to the absolute latest java stuff from Sun/Apple, in either Firefox or Safari.
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| #2340 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Krish |
Malan,
I had this same problem. The fix is to go to Apple Developer Connection and download the beta of Java 6. You'll want to read the file that describes how to go into java prefs and drag Java 6 to the top of the list for loading. Took me a good 20 minutes to figure out that solution, so I hope it helps. As for a screenshot the site seems to be down at the moment, but I'll try to provide one soon. - Kresh | |||||||||||
| #2341 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Shamif |
Is there a point where your mainhand can outgear your offhand to a point where you should switch to a fast offhand with FT?
I am asking because I am currently using dragonmaw (soon dragonstrike) and the 2.6 blue pvp mace. Is there a point where your 70somethin dps offhand stealing WF procs from your 100ish MH Can cause lower dps than a slow/WF fast(20+ dps higher)/FT? Armory link The Armory I have a malca rotting in my bank for skillups dont gimme the get a epic offhand thing we are working on al'ar Last edited by Shamif : 09/09/07 at 9:04 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2342 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Igniter |
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| #2343 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
I don't even understand what that question means. It looks like a thinly veiled request to rationalize the use of FT.
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| #2344 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
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You're UR & flurry uptime is very close to mine (again ~2%) compared to my most recent flurry model (which basically ignores the stormstrike "help" for now, since I'll probably change the stormstrike modelling a bit). So as far as I've seen it, you're sim is looking real nice from the modelling point of view. | |||||||||||
| #2345 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
Ok Yo, got your sim finally working on my mac, here's how it looks on a mac in firefox.
You can see that all the stuff on the right is getting cut off. | |||||||||||
| #2346 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Shalas |
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| #2347 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stekespade |
Yes, it's one more of those who haven't bothered looking through 90~ pages and 2,3k~ posts having a question!
I have failed to find a searching mechanic on the forum and I couldn't find anything about it on the main page. What about 2xSyphon for a shaman? | |||||||||||
| #2348 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Rob |
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AP = 1 CR = 2.08 HitR = 1.65 HasteR = 1.1 -AC = 0.27 STR = 2.2 AGI = 2.02 These all seem like fairly reasonable values, I am surprised that Haste is so low but I also think that was the least-well-supported AEP we created initially. My initial reaction was to think that was a high value for -AC but that means the -175 AC on [Choker of Serrated Blades] is worth 47 AP, so Blizzard may have the item budget for this stat in about the right spot, comparing to [Choker of Endless Nightmares]. We'd expect the former to be worth 35+37*2/3+47/2 = 83 item budget points and the latter to be worth 21+27+36 = 84 points (ignoring the effect that stat stacking has on item budget). My DPS does come out a little low (997), so perhaps the default value of 4400 mob armor is a little high. Last edited by Rob : 09/10/07 at 1:41 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2349 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette |
Thanks for all the updates guys. I'm sorry if this counts as a "useless post", but I believe in public thanks ;-)
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| #2350 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | • Krish |
Fixed my own issue.
Last edited by Krish : 09/10/07 at 5:55 AM. Reason: Resolved my own issue... nothing to see here. | |||||||||||
| #2351 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hedin |
Anyone know anything about PPM nerf? http://elitistjerks.com/471929-post525.html
Is proc chance going to be calculated on current speed not the base one? Thay are killing haste in every way :-( | |||||||||||
| #2352 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Kirion |
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| #2353 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
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| #2354 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | dukes | ||||||||||||
| #2355 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Winfurae |
alright, I see.
Last edited by Winfurae : 09/10/07 at 8:59 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2356 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nisall |
If you have being keeping track of this thread for weeks how can you possibly ask about hitrating? It only gets asked twice per page of this thread.
Never ever socket hit gems You get enough hit through your talents + the hit rating alot of items have. | |||||||||||
| #2357 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nemaa |
People don't really like posts like this (when you ask for advice, especially when it was asked many many times before) and "lol" is what you should not use here.
Generally hit rating is a useful stat but I don't really have a goal to get x amount of it. I take items that are upgrades and consider hit rating as a bonus. | |||||||||||
| #2358 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Misanthrope |
Good day everyone.
I'm a rogue captain in my guild and we don't have a lot of shaman, so currently we're aligning them with their roles rather than a specific class captain. As such, the enhancement shammies are under my watch. I currently have one shaman who is, putting it plainly, a complete pain in the arse. We essentially have to badger him for several minutes to get him to use WF over GOA. Our Melee DPS group usually includes: 3 Rogues (all combat daggers - thanks Karazhan for that total lack of OH swords!) 1 DPS Warrior or BM Hunter 1 Feral Druid in cat form What I don't understand is: How much is he gimping his personal DPS here to use WF over GOA? I know how much of a gain it is for a rogue, but I know next to nothing about shammie DPS (hence my consulting you wise folks). Thanks. | |||||||||||
| #2359 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
@Misanthrope - His personal DPS gain from GoA is nowhere near what the Warrior is losing by not having WF.
Now, on the days where you have no warrior, and your group is Hunter/Feral/Rogues/Shaman, I would recommend GoA. But if the warrior is there? WF, hands down, no excuse. @Yo! - Whatever you changed to your sim recently, I am unable to view the AEP values on both Linux and OS X in Firefox, the applet cuts off the portion of the display where the AEP values should be. DPS values for my gear seem pretty damn reasonable for a high level armor mob. Last edited by Malan : 09/10/07 at 10:27 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2360 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nite_Moogle |
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GoA is only worth a few % of crit for the shaman. He'll lose maybe 4% of his damage (and that's extremely generous) for a 20% increase in main hand damage for all the rogues and warriors. If you have 3 rogues or a warrior and two rogues in the group, Windfury is still the best option by quite a lot. | |||||||||||
| #2361 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | hellraiser |
As of next patch haste rating is being nerfed, so my simple qeustionis, would Dragonstrike still the best mainhand for a enhancement shammy?
or would it be beter with Rising Tide in MH and Syphon of the Nathrezim in OH? or 2xSyphon of the Nathrezim? | |||||||||||
| #2362 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
I think we've now asked that question twice per day, once per page for the last 10 days.
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| #2363 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Misanthrope |
Errr. Alliance-only secret. OK, maybe it's 2 rogues, 1 shammie, warrior, and kitty.
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| #2364 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda |
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As said, GoA is at best 4% of his dps, while its ALOT more for warriors alone. Once you have just 1 warrior in a group, WF totem will add more dps for just that warrior than GoA would for the entire group probably. Last edited by vorda : 09/10/07 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Living in the past. | |||||||||||
| #2365 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan |
He's wrong. His personal DPS is sure as hell not going to improve as much as *only* the warrior would gain from WF Totem, and definitely not as much as 2 rogues + Warrior with WF.
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| #2366 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ilmatar |
So what you are saying, Malan, is that Windfury is the right totem under the right circumstances, but not others?
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| #2367 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda |
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Last edited by vorda : 09/10/07 at 12:31 PM. Reason: typo | |||||||||||
| #2368 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Paradox |
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| #2369 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda | ||||||||||||
| #2370 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nite_Moogle |
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| #2371 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | hellraiser | ||||||||||||
| #2372 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nemaa |
Using Yo!'s sim and my stats: 2xSyphon > Syphon/RT > RT/Syphon but the difference is about 0.5-1% in DPS. I know it's not the answer for the viability of Dragonstrike.
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| #2373 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Mox |
Since the WF totem nerf rogues in my grp have been getting between 4.5-6.5% of thier total damage from WF (they are mace/sword rogues), never paid any attention to the warrior in grp but I'd guestimate 10%ish (MS spec). So 3x rogue + warrior = maybe 25% more dmg for them vs 3-4% personal gain from GoA.
Doesn't take a genius to see which is better. | |||||||||||
| #2374 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tambard |
Hi, I'm currently using the Dragonstrike... I have all the mats for the Dragonmaw and 4 Vortexes (but only 1 mongoose)... Should I just wait to see if I get a Vortex tonight in SSC or upgrade now and slap a +20 STR on it?
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| #2375 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Sebudai |
Your shaman also has the option of 'twisting' both Windfury and GoA and gaining the benefits of both of them!
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| #2601 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
Crit rate is taken as a percentage over ALL swings, not just the ones that hit. WWS will show crit rates as #Crit/#Hits.
I'd recommend the Bloodlust Brooch over the Abacus. Remove all your hit gems. I say again.... REMOVE ALL YOUR HIT GEMS. | |||||||||||
| #2602 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | • fangar |
Wow first post and I get yelled at by Malan. Thanks.
![]() One hit gem no less. I have been hoping to replace those gloves so I didn't bother regemming them (I had them an exceptionally long time from when I was hardcore resto and gemmed up all the hunter gear I got with +8 hit before I knew any better). Working on my badges for the brooch, I am just exceptionally lazy. Regarding the crit rate. Thanks for the clarification. I assumed that the WWS tallied in the same manner as what actually happens in the combat table. Shame on me for assuming. Last edited by fangar : 09/17/07 at 12:07 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2603 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Shawndreya |
We're just trying to help you. Totem twisting, although beneficial, is a huge mana burner. So I would not recommend doing it in long fights like Tidewalker. Especially if you end up having to heal yourself.
Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/17/07 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Spelling error | |||||||||||
| #2604 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • fangar |
Yeah I know you are trying to help, which is why I edited in the smiley because I laughed when I saw Malan's reaction. I even knew it was coming when I paniced and rechecked my armory to see that lone +8 hit gem sitting there. I knew what was coming so it made me laugh.
I am still undecided on totem twisting TBH. I struggle from time to time on mana and I know some people use it extensively and others don't touch it. I'll have to pull down a mod and see what i can do with it on the next relatively static VR. Although my issue with VR is threat, which is why I was using TaT. Would it just be better to die from the pounding, anhk up and go full bore? Thus negating the need for TaT and the prism? Thanks again for the responses and the help. | |||||||||||
| #2605 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shawndreya |
To be honest, the only time I totem twist is when we are clearing trash just to make it go faster. I don't use the prism, although I have one. Just keep an eye on your threat meter and you will be fine. When you get about 80% of tank's threat stop shocking and just auto attack to let your aggro gradually drop. On fights like VR, I generally drop tranquil air until he is at 70% anyways.
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| #2606 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
Oh. Well honestly all I did was mouse over a few items and the first one I saw had a +Hit gem on it, so I just stopped there and figured you probably had more.
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| #2607 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Silverspring |
First of all thanks for an awesome thread. You guys have done a great job
Fangar just a tip, you could try to use a FS and ES rotation donno if you have thought about it | |||||||||||
| #2608 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | bigity |
When does DPS > speed on a weapon
I'm leveling up my horde enhancement shammy, and I'm aware of the fact that slow/slow with dual WF is the best DPS.
However, how much speed is worth how much DPS? Do I upgrade to a weapon with 5-7 more DPS but that is .7 speed faster (specifically talking about the Grunt's Waraxe vs Pneumatic hammers). I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, disregarding stats, when is a faster weapon a better choice than a slower, lower DPS weapon? My armory link in case it's useful to the question: The Armory | |||||||||||
| #2609 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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Cycling totems requires a small portion of awareness because your SR's are what let the build do what it does, so you need to make sure various abilities have gone off before you hit your rage(ie graves, iceblock, roots, whirlwind, whirl, tomb, meteor timer, port timer, flamestrike, spine, bloodboil, fa, sleep, rain of fire, burst, fear, ect), although I suppose this is true even if you are just a shock person! | |||||||||||
| #2610 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
Re: yellow damage crits: I am seeing a lot of variation of the crit percentage between white damage, windfury and SS. WF and SS are ALWAYS lower than white damage, and in long parses (~1M damage overall) WF and SS seem to approach the same percentage. But it's not as simple as being 6% less, as might be expected...it's more like 3-4% less?
Strangely, the crit percentages between WF and SS were as out of whack as I've ever seen them on my Gruul's raid last week, where I spent about half the time in a group with the feral druids. SS was about 2% higher than WF. (There were also some turning issues...I don't SS when a mob's front is to me because that usually means one of the rogues has drawn aggro and if I don't scale back I'm next. Sure enough, my WF hit rate is about 5% lower than my SS hit rate, so it could be as simple as that) Disco, can you dream up a test of the two roll-theory? | |||||||||||
| #2611 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
edit: @ fangar. Wow you guys post fast.
I'm a big proponent of totem twisting, but in moderation. Doing it for a whole fight is kinda rough, esp if you don't have BoW. For VR, are you being put in the tank group? The added WF/GoA/UR buffs usually mean I don't have to worry about threat at all. Also, I try to save lust for when I'm sneaking up on threat. You're getting Salvation, right? | |||||||||||
| #2612 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
bigity: I've found empirically that green 2.6s (~60 dps) were much, much better than epic 1.8s (~80 dps), even in the offhand. You can predict which weapon is better by running one of the great simulators posted in the topic post, they're usually quite close.
I don't know that anybody's researched the exact relationship between weapon speed and damage, but it's going to be pretty high in favor of slow and low. Remember, you want high swing damage for WF and SS procs -- you'd need a 2.0s weapon with at least 78 dps to match your current hammers in terms of swing damage, and by then you're talking L70 epics. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/17/07 at 2:15 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2613 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | bigity |
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Thanks. | |||||||||||
| #2614 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shawndreya |
I prefer to heal myself when invigorate is up rather than pot. I tend to save pots/healthstones for emergencies only. That way when such an emergency occurs, my cooldowns are up.
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| #2615 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava | ||||||||||||
| #2616 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shawndreya |
Ya, I'd rather have the my potions up for those moments whne its like "Oh damn, I only have 10 hp!" so I can top myself off asap. Situations like that are more important than losing a few swings IMO. Besides, I don't like having to rely on healers all the time.
But everyone plays differently. If you feel safe relying on your healers, more power to you. | |||||||||||
| #2617 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Diogo |
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| #2618 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • fangar |
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Regarding Invigorate. I tend to heal myself when I notice the buff is up and I need it. I eat HS constantly and generally save my potion timer for haste pots. | |||||||||||
| #2619 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Zerath |
I do the same thing. When specific healers aren't there, melee tend to not get healed, so those "emergencies cooldowns" are the difference of doing dps or laying on the ground and grabbing a drink while the raid finishes.
2 second heal, global cooldown is done when the heal goes off, you can continue. Does it stop dps? Yes, but, it's winning situation, imo. | |||||||||||
| #2620 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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I really can't imagine not having faith in healers to do 1500 healing half a dozen times per fight, to each their own I suppose! | |||||||||||
| #2621 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shawndreya |
Well on fights where everyone is taking damage, I can't assume that I will be healed in priority to say the tanks, or other healers. On nights when our resto shamans don't show up, taking the time to heal myself can be life saving. Aside from that, healing yourself when able takes stress off healers, allowing them to focus on the critical players. We have the ability to heal ourselves, there's no reason we can't utilize it.
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| #2622 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
So when you find yourself below the health threshold of a mob ability you just continue to DPS and wait for someone to heal you? Even rogues and warriors know to stop and bandage themselves.
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| #2623 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Nite_Moogle |
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| #2624 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Shawndreya |
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Oh, and thanks for the Kael'thas tips a few days back. We killed him last night, congrats to me on T5 chestpiece. Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/17/07 at 3:40 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2625 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | BoinKlasik |
Mana issues.
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What I would recommend doing for those of you that seem to have mana issues, is ask your healadins to throw up JoW sometimes. It is up for 20 seconds it is up if they don't refresh it. Even that short time can return a decent amount of mana even in the very long fights. | |||||||||||
| #2626 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Azaranth |
Malan,
I believe the weight for Haste Rating still needs to be updated in the Pawn string, near the bottom of the first post. | |||||||||||
| #2627 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tqq |
I'm a little surprised by how low crit% some people on here have considering they are better geared than myself. I am currently at 27.87% with a couple blues left to replace and wearing my more balanced gear with hit, etc. I should break 28% today when I find a damn leather worker to make my Thick Netherscale Breastplate.
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| #2628 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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There are two fights I can think of when I actually reach a point where I have to bandage and that's Mother and Council, simply due to the spiky nature and randomness of abilities. Any other boss where it matters has set times when they use abilities, or they use them frequent enough that you are lucky to get 1 tick of a bandage, let alone an uninterrupted heal. Everything is a judgment call, different situations call for different timers, and I'm honestly surprised you'd say something so condescending. | |||||||||||
| #2629 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Yasuhiko |
My thoughts were that the 6% to hit with DW specialization does not effect Stormstrike and WF, but since we have enough hit (be it from gear or guidance) that we never see it miss anyway.
Last edited by Yasuhiko : 09/17/07 at 7:54 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2630 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
Incorrect. The 6% and 3% in resto will hit cap you on specials vs a boss mob.
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| #2631 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Illundai |
I recently changed to Enhancement (and guild, but that doesn't really matter :P) and due to randomness of loot and being unlucky, neither [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or [Rising Tide] have dropped so I decided to pick up Blacksmithing for [Dragonstrike]. I don't have it yet and I will most likely end up with not enough vortexes this reset meaning I have to duck it out with what I have at the moment. However, we won't go back to t5 for another week, so I was thinking whether [Dragonmaw] was a significant enough upgrade over [Talon of the Phoenix] that would justify enchanting the Dragonmaw with 20 str. Any rough numbers in how much dps the proc from Dragonmaw is worth?
In short, enchant Dragonmaw or continue with what I have? I'm definitely not going to put Mongoose on it, since that's just wasting gold, but 20 strength isn't THAT expensive and if my DPS is going to see a significant enough improvement from the difference in between Dragonmaw and Talon, albeit for only a week I would gladly pay mats for an enchant. Oh and by the way, lately I have been struggling... I was of the opinion like most Shamans that Crit Rating was just awesome, so I kind of gimped my AP/Str a little... I ended up with 29% crit and 1543 AP (Unbuffed, of course). Way to go, or should I focus a little more on AP again? | |||||||||||
| #2632 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Igniter |
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| #2633 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
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| #2634 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aknazer |
Malan I've got a couple of questions for you. First is about haste. First you say its worth 2.22, but then when you talk about the Haste Potion you say it's only worth 1.42 per point. Could you please clear up which it's supposed to be (maybe its calculated at post nerf value, while other is at pre nerf? I really don't know). Also you might want to add the Insane Strength Potion to that list for those wanting to know. Its (120*2*15)/120=30, with 33 with kings/UR or 36 with both.
My other question is about WF totem and rogues. I know that it's better for sword/mace/fist rogues, but what about dagger rogues? Pre nerf the post I saw where they used the Malch dagger it was only slightly better, but I haven't really seen anything convincing showing if thats still true post nerf, and I couldn't find anything about it when I searched the forums here. Also could you link the thread showing that WF is still good for rogues that you make mention to in the first post. A link to math is always more helpful in an arguement than just saying its better w/o anything to back it up. | |||||||||||
| #2635 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Rajni |
In regards to the windfury totem on rogues, since the change, it actually provides a slightly larger bonus to daggers than to swords/fists, as it's a static ap bonus, and daggers will proc the chance more often, leading to more damage.
The reason fists/swords were better before the change, was that the SS spam could proc windfury, which is used a lot more than backstab. Last edited by Rajni : 09/17/07 at 10:52 PM. Reason: grammar, go! | |||||||||||
| #2636 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aknazer |
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I understand that its less of a nerf to dagger than other rogue specs, but its still a nerf to them since backstab, mutilate, and w/e else they might use (I don't know too much about rogues if you couldn't tell) can't proc it anymore. Given how close WF vs GoA was for dagger rogues thats why I'm wondering if it was enough to make GoA better. Generally our group makeup is me, 2-3 dagger rogues, feral druid, and a warrior and I'm trying to figure out if GoA would be better when the warrior isn't in the group. Hell I would like to see the new numbers for warriors post nerf as well so that I could determine if WF for one person is better than GoA for five. | |||||||||||
| #2637 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
The haste values are just an oversight that I need to correct. It should be 1.48 I believe once 2.2 hits Live.
As far as WF Totem, Disquette is organizing some testing for the next PTR that will provide some final numbers on it. | |||||||||||
| #2638 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aknazer |
Alright thanks. I'll be sure to check back later then to see the final results.
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| #2639 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Illundai |
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I specced resto for some PvP, so you wouldn't be able to see anyway. My gear is t4/t5 indeed, with a few items from t6. Bracers from Supremus, class trinket, boots, just little bits and pieces. We farm t6 content, so I'm getting gear fast. As for gems, I think I went a little too nuts on the +8 crit and +10 crit gems. Oh and I have one hit gem, need to replace that one when I get around it :P and yes the gemming in my chest is horrible, but I was kind of waiting for an upgrade, in retrospective I should just regem that a little. I logged out in my Enhancement gear and spec, so you can see as the armory just updated my page. Hopefully. Mind you the stats will be a little off, as I can't dual wield and I think I was a little drunk when I last checked my stats as Enhancement :P. Anyway, does anyone have a number to put on how much DPS the proc on [Dragonmaw] is worth? Last edited by Illundai : 09/18/07 at 12:22 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2640 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda |
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| #2641 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
Ok I think I've corrected all occurrences of Haste Rating to be 1.48, and I added the Insane Strength Potion value.
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| #2642 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | roknir |
WF vs GoA
This might have already been posted in this thread, but I haven't seen it anywhere.
I'd like to poke the bear in the cage about WF vs GoA. We know about how warriors, druids, and rogues get benefits from each, which is better and why. But, what do you do in the situation that you have a paladin tank? Last edited by roknir : 09/18/07 at 5:15 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2643 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Lunaps |
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I usually go with either WoA or GoA, but it depends on the rest of the group makeup. The one pally tank I run with usually asks for WoA. | |||||||||||
| #2644 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Zertenia |
Hi there, I am new to the forum and I have been reading this thread with much interest.
I noticed the debate regarding hit rate that you do not need to attempt to cap the limit as hit rate only effect the melee damage and not WF, SS. But although I understand that hit rate does not directly affect the windfury hit, but the original WF triggeriing attack surely is and if an attack misses, would that not be missing an opportunity for WF proc? I currently have mid-kara gear with approx. 240 hit, 24% crit and 1200AP but is all this hit rate a waste? I do have a lot of hitrate gems. I'm sorry if this has been talked about already but I could not find it as I did a search. Thank you! | |||||||||||
| #2645 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shawndreya |
Lose all the hit gems, they are not needed. I raid with around 150-170ish, and I've heard people going even lower than that. You should get some more AP, follow the gem guide on OP for socket itemization.
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| #2646 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | T.K. |
Zertenia, the table for atks don't work that way you think.
You won't miss a chance to proc WF because of low hit. We already discussed this in here, but i'm on a rush now and can't explain it to you again. But trust us, drop hit gems, use the gems we suggest and you'll see a higher deeps. Last edited by T.K. : 09/19/07 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Rushing grammar | |||||||||||
| #2647 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Zertenia |
Shwandreya, T.K,
Thanks for your replies, I was just reading through the 'combat table' and I think I figured something out... So crit hit is determined before the normanl hit on a separate probability determination... I think I have got closer to the secret! but really, how are 'casual' players menat to know all this... it was definitely not on the instruction! hehe. Thank you people, I love this thread! | |||||||||||
| #2648 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
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| #2649 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | fjour |
Hi i am new here and i am a enhance shaman as well in Jubeithos.
however my guild does not progress so well, and i was thinking how to get more ap. The question is anyone use or test the Darkmoon Card:Wrath and Darkmoon Card:Crusade? Which one would be more useful or better in terms of pvp and pve(raid)??? I currently standing at 130 hit rating is that enought for 25 man raid??? I ty for reply and guidance. And i apologize in advance if theres post of above statement before that i overlook, please do let me know the page ![]() regards | |||||||||||
| #2650 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda | ||||||||||||
| #2676 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Shawndreya |
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using [Nightfall]. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.
Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/19/07 at 11:25 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2677 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | • Shabadu |
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VVV Yeah I wasn't being serious at all. VVVV Last edited by Shabadu : 09/19/07 at 10:29 AM. | |||||||||||
| #2678 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shawndreya |
I understand that, nothing against you. I'm just trying to make sure we get things as accurate as we can.
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| #2679 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Zerath |
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Crazy, I know. | |||||||||||
| #2680 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Shawndreya |
Hmm, how odd. To me that five second gap doesn't seem like much. But if you say end games are using it, might as well make a secondary calculation for that scenario.
Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/19/07 at 11:33 AM. Reason: Sticky keys | |||||||||||
| #2681 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
Also just to verify what someone had corrected me on earlier - the effects of something like Scorch Debuff and Misery and CoE are applied multiplicatively and not additive, correct? ie, Bonus = 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.10
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| #2682 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Zerath |
I've been under this impression for some time, but, then again, I could be wrong, too. (Lots of comas, w00t!)
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| #2683 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
Added procs of the following trinkets:
+ Dragonspine Trophy + Ashtongue Talisman + Madness of the Betrayer + Hourglass of the Unraveller + Tsunami Talisman Remember to add their static bonuses manually Added procs granted by 4 pieces of the following sets: + T 3.5 (+160 AP for 15 sec) + T 4 + T5 + T6 + PVP (-1s SS cooldown) | |||||||||||
| #2684 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yakout |
Yo!,
Is there any hope of getting Flametongue Weapon support (along with necessary accompaniments like Spell Damage) at some far-off point in the future? Either as a serious point of inquiry, or at least as a means of demonstrating empirically to lazy skeptics that WF/WF is better? (Again, request for when more useful stuff is all done, at some point in the future.) | |||||||||||
| #2685 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda | ||||||||||||
| #2686 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | kojimoto |
so i finally got my hands on both the syphon of nathrezim, rising tide, and dragonstrike. i know a few pages back there was some discussion that there is only a *minor* dps increase depending what you put on your mainhand, offhand first, but with no actual data or straight answer and with alot of disagreeing.
what im looking for is actual tests with data thats been done, and using the syphon on the OH, and Dragonstrike on the MH, and so on with the rising tide as well. as you guys know, syphon is 2.8, dragonstrike(mh only) 2.7, rising tide 2.6 this also might make a difference, but im sitting at 132 haste rating (12.56%). I know on the very first post there was info about this as well, where someone would use rising tide on MH and syphon on OH and got more MH wf procs as well as syhpon on MH tide on OH but got more OH procs, but it was removed and i was curious to why? | |||||||||||
| #2687 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
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| #2688 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Zerath |
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| #2689 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | kojimoto |
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all i can really do is switch weapons during trash and see how big my wfs are, but i wont be able to really count numbers how much wfs my mh gets, vice versa, and even loading these data addons. il play around with that sim, doesnt seem to be what im looking for though | |||||||||||
| #2690 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
I pulled it out because it was inconclusive, one test said Syphon was best MH, the other said Rising Tide was.
You might want to figure out why your shift key works for things like 'OH' and 'MH' but not for the first letter of a sentence and 'I'. | |||||||||||
| #2691 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | kojimoto |
i dont see any significance in that, i seperate my capitals so people dont think im saying "OH MY GOD YOUR A DOUCHE" or even yet, im MHISSPELLING. as far as making my "I" i didnt think i joined english jerks forums.
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| #2692 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | rava |
I do believe it is more about proper forum etiquette! Easier on the eyes to read proper grammar and such! Otherwise, it's like: and they were like woosh, and i was like woah, and they were like pewpewpew and then we all went out for pancakes to celebrate and i was like numnumnum
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| #2693 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
I think moral here is that Dragonstrike, the Syphon and Rising Tide are all really good. The tests I've seen (both empirical and simulated) imply that there isn't a heckuva lot of difference either way, so just use the ones you want and don't break the DKP bank for one of the three if you already have the other two.
Dragonstrike is going to get nerfed with the next patch, so I say main hand it while it's still worth it. There might be a secondary moral about how the constraints of your chosen lifestyle don't induce imperative on others, but considering my chosen lifestyle is trolling forums, I should probably just clam up. Also, that "English Jerks forum" comment was damn funny. | |||||||||||
| #2694 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | kojimoto |
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| #2695 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Silmeria | ||||||||||||
| #2696 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
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| #2697 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | aefos |
I was not trying to direct the QQ comment about twisting sorry if I sounded like that. Most people I talk to in game QQ about it when asked not you guys it was just a general statement.
As of the 12 seconds you do 1 ES then 6 seconds later you do 1 FS that is 12 seconds between each ES and that isn't even counting if you catch a global here and there. I was mainly stating that you can drop ES out of your SS / FS / ES rotation and losing one shock out of the 3 rotation you can replace it with totem twisting which IMO GREATLY out weighs the dps from the shock. Let alone the debuffs that could be used on someone else IE if your guild has an bird I can guarantee he will offer lap dances to any enhancement shaman who doesn't use ES on his rotations. | |||||||||||
| #2698 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
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| #2699 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
Hmm, that's an interesting strat, drats -- I suppose you'd want to avoid those nasty 2H WF procs; do you use any imbues at all?
I now know of three or four weapon/inbue swap macros for decreasing threat -- swapping for a weapon and shield (for the additional defense should aggro be pulled), swapping in fast daggers (to keep up UR), downranking Windfury and now whipping out Nightfall. All of these seem more useful than simple turning off auto-attack -- anybody else got a weapon swap strategy? | |||||||||||
| #2700 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | drats |
The WF procs aren't really a problem since max damage for nightfall is so small. I prefer to keep WF on the nightfall, since the added hits increase the proc rate.
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| #1621 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morninglory | ||||||||||||
| #1622 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1623 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! | ||||||||||||
| #1624 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol | ||||||||||||
| #1625 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morninglory | ||||||||||||
| #1626 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | vorda | ||||||||||||
| #1627 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
Last edited by Yo! : 08/21/07 at 9:25 AM. Reason: Wrong answer | |||||||||||
| #1628 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Aeolian | ||||||||||||
| #1629 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1630 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Shabadu | ||||||||||||
| #1631 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! | ||||||||||||
| #1632 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morninglory | ||||||||||||
| #1633 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Yo! |
Last edited by Yo! : 08/21/07 at 9:21 AM. | |||||||||||
| #1634 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Morelis | ||||||||||||
| #1635 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nite_Moogle | ||||||||||||
| #2901 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | berg |
I tend to agree that having secondary points in resto will still be the best (especially for totem twisting.) That said I guess it is a good thing that we are atleast talking about elemental. Though I still think any talk of Elemental devastation is absurd.
One thing I think that is being missed though is the following. Everyone is thinking purely offensively because currently that is all an enhancement shaman is. If the proposed changes go in, we will all be sitting at 700-1000 dam/healing and a quick swap to a healing weapon and healing shield will put that in the 1200+ healing range. Still not a raid healer by any means but miles ahead of where we were. The largest benefit will easily be to our healing and then searing totem and healing stream totem. The boost to shocks will be nice but realistically our + damage is still getting butchered by the damage coefficient and cooldowns on shocks. It is going to be pretty exciting. I have access to a rogue and already consider my shaman the best mob grinding class in the game. Give me big healing stream, and big healing waves and 30% damage reduction... ![]() | |||||||||||
| #2902 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Tornhoof |
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Your armor is more effective against lower level enemies obviously. Example: Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 67 mob, the reduction is 68.6%. Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 70 mob, the reduction is 65.5% Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 73 mob, the reduction is 62.6% Currently you're calculating the reduction as if the boss is getting hit by same-level enemies (aka lvl 73 enh shaman), that is obviously wrong. | |||||||||||
| #2903 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | panny |
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I will try an Ele minor once 2.3 goes through though. The added shock damage is nice, but I'm especially curious about how the extra spell damage will play with Improved Fire Totems (does anyone know if this affects Greater Fire Elemental?). 10% less elemental damage will be great for both raids and pvp. | |||||||||||
| #2904 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Malan |
According to the WoW shaman forums, 30/31 is the new raiding paradigm according to shaman with a grand total of 250 Neutral Rep for Violet Eye.
The Armory | |||||||||||
| #2905 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Stigmata |
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| #2906 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Abrax |
I apologize if this has been covered earlier in the thread, but it's not in the OP.
How does Haste Rating Stack with Flurry stack with Bloodlust stack with Mongoose? With Flurry alone My attack speed with Dragonmaw is 2.08. Maybe it's the wording of the tooltip that's confusing me, but in my world, increasing the attack speed by 30% would mean an attack speed of 2.70*0.7 = 1.89. 2.08/2.70 = ~.77 which brings me to the question, does the Haste from flurry diminish like the haste from haste rating as your progress from 60 to 70? Does the same degradation affect Bloodlust? With Flurry and Bloodlust, my attack speed drops to 1.60. 2.08*.07 = ~1.46 1.6/2.08 = ~.77 throwing Abacus of Violent Odds in the mix, 260 Haste Rating(pre 2.2) = 24.73% haste. That alone brings me down to 2.18 attack speed 2.70*0.7527 = 2.03 All together, I get down to 1.28 attack speed. 1.60*0.7527 = 1.2 So my question is: how do these effects apply, and in what order? | |||||||||||
| #2907 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Nite_Moogle |
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| #2908 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Abrax |
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So... 2.7/ ((1+(0.3/100)*(1+(0.3/100)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52))) = Hasted Weapon speed? >>> 2.7/ (1.003*1.003*1.45) = 1.85 Maybe I fail at math, it's been a long time since college. What's that 10.52 from? | |||||||||||
| #2909 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Nite_Moogle |
10.52 is the current haste rating conversion to 1% haste. That will change with the next patch.
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2.7/ ((1+(0.3)*(1+(0.3)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52))) Plus 2% haste from each mongoose proc, if you really want to get silly. | |||||||||||
| #2910 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Abrax |
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oooo. ok. so, 1.1, which is what I get with all the buffs. Ok, so why does 30% haste from flurry really only come out as 23%? | |||||||||||
| #2911 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Disquette | ||||||||||||
| #2912 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Nite_Moogle | ||||||||||||
| #2913 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Khlysti |
30% haste means you get 30% more attacks in any unit of time, not that your swing time goes down by 30%.
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| #2914 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | ◊ Kasi |
I would love to get points in healing focus as an elemental shaman, but there is so much less wiggle room in an elemental spec then there is in enhancement. If I take more than 1 point in focus, it means losing totem range, spell hit or spell crit. All of which to me are pretty big no nos. If I could get full focus with only sacrificing 1 or maybe 2 points, than it might be plausible. but not when it means sacrificing 4 points.
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| #2915 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Vim |
When applying AEP values to items, is there a way to weigh the value of Stam as well, or is it more of a personal preferance? Since you can easily compare strength to AP, for stam it seems to me its like comparing apples to oranges since increasing stam does not impact DPS directly, but a "dead shaman does no DPS". Some items that score high on AEP are low, or have nil stam which is less appealing to melee IMO. If there is no way to weigh it directly, is there a minimum HP suggestion for BT/Hyjal?
Last edited by Vim : 09/24/07 at 5:10 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2916 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Deck |
Hello fellow Enhancers!
First time poster, long time reader (as much as possible anyway!). I am currently applying for a pretty serious raiding guild on Executus and have found that my inappropriate "upgrades" have ended up hurting my overall DPS for end game raids. The main issue I have always had is judging which stats actually translate into the highest overall DPS gains. Anyway, whoever broke down the AEP values, thank you so much, it has helped me tremendously and with the addition of the Pawn mod, it's easy mode now on choosing upgrades. However, on the subject of Pawn strings, I think I may found an error with the first post, which states: Sample Pawn string to use (uses Pater and Tornhoof's AEP values): ( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater/Tornhoof)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 ) Technically - shouldn't the socket values be as follows? RedSocket = 17.6 (same) 8 x 2.2 - 17.6 BlueSocket = 8.8 (+4 str - +6 stam gem) 4 x 2.2 = 8.8 YellowSocket = 16.8 (+4 str - +4 crit gem) 4 x 2.2 + 4 x 2 = 16.8 Maybe I am missing something; some additional clarity would be welcomed. Thank you. | |||||||||||
| #2917 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
Deck -- you are missing something, namely that you don't need to match colors in gem slots UNLESS you really want the socket bonus or need a certain setup for meta gems.
In most cases, you'll get more benefit out of slotting Bold Livings everywhere, which have an AEP of 17.6 Value of various exceptions can be calculated pretty easy...f'rexample, check out my leggings...i'm missing about 3.2 AEP by using two +8 crit rating gems, but the +8 AP offsets that. And I'm losing a handful of AEP from the bracers and gloves, a tradeoff made to gain a teeny bit of stamina (which obviously i need). | |||||||||||
| #2918 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Deck |
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| #2919 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
Ahh, the Stamina thing.
Strictly speaking, the AEP of stamina is 0, because it does not contribute directly to DPS. If you can guarantee you'll never get hit, you don't need any extra health -- and if you're going to get one shot anyway, it doesn't matter what your health was before it happened. Many fights definitely have a minimum value due to AoE or cleave effects, which change depending on your raid makeup. If you group with two warriors, for example, you can effectively shave 100 +STM off your gear thanks to commanding shout. Stamina shouldn't be in the AEP numbers, but enhancers should pick up stamina gear whenever possible. That way we can stack just enough of it to form a baseline contoured to the fight and the group, and have the rest of our gear devoted to that which maximizes our DPS. I currently maintain two sets of DPS gear: one with a health goal of 6500 (which is a nice buffer for those bosses that have 3000 damage AoE pulses), and my high DPS set with no lower limit (and thus around 5500 health). As I push into higher tiers of raiding, I expect to push up my "survival" set's baseline to match the tougher raid bosses. I think all of this applies to int as well. I currently have no problems with mana, but I will if I keep trading hunter/shaman/druid gear for rogue leathers. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/24/07 at 5:40 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2920 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Abrax | ||||||||||||
| #2921 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | djaehns |
Hi Shaman friends,
first of all a big THANK YOU to all of you guys. I've learned so much about my char by goings through this whole post. But at the moment I've still one question. A few days ago, I had a discussion with my raidleader about the setup of the melee group. We had 2 rogues, 1 offwarrior and me. The question: Is it better to take a BM hunter (3% more damage) or a feral druid to optimize the DPS output of this group. Are there any calculations? Especially in connection with all my melee buff? or is it a really stupid question and the answer is very easy? thx Miuntar | |||||||||||
| #2922 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Vim | ||||||||||||
| #2923 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Illundai |
Bah, for quite a while I was Restoration, so I was a bit lagging behind in theorycraft about Enhancement. I didn't think much of it, but I've always socketed my gear for a LOT of crit. I checked just now and I have 32% crit unbuffed, but only 1452 AP. I started looking into my personal performance a little and I remain unsatisfied for now, really. Would my performance improve by regemming anything of my gear? I know for a fact Crit is nice, but maybe I overdid it a little. I'm not too sure anymore :E.
The Armory Any suggestions on whether I should keep on going for this approach or not? Should I re-evaluate my sockets and value Strength a lot higher then what I do now? It's not like I completely ignored Strength, I just have a damn lot more crit :P. I know the OP states I should gem yellow with 4 str 4 crit, but I kindly ignored that for quite a while since in the tier 5 region of gear I was in, there was quite a lot of AP/Str on the items already. Now that I've gotten some tier 6 quality gear I seem to be dropping in attack power every day :/ | |||||||||||
| #2924 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • Juice | ||||||||||||
| #2925 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | • fangar |
To Illundi.
Well +8 crit is 16 AEP and 8 Str is 17.6 AEP (with BOK). So from a pure min max perspective +8 Str is just better. I have always viewed 30% crit as a good breakpoint, but honestly I just go with whatever is the highest AEP return. | |||||||||||
| #3026 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 Edited onPatch 2.2.0 | Atren |
Personally i would expect WF mechanics rework along with new expansion. I doubt they will be doing it earlier.
Last edited by Atren : 09/27/07 at 2:11 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3027 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 Edited onPatch 2.2.0 | Stigmata |
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My gear has had 1 change in the last 3 weeks as far as I recall, which was the Gurtogg ring, I also switched to Band of Eternity this week, but didnt do that until after Hyjal (brain lag) Here is the link to last nights Anetheron and the one 2 weeks before, didnt post last weeks since we had 3 rogues/warrior in group vs 2 rogues/warrrior/druid in the other two. 13th Sept Stigmata - WWS 26th Sept Stigmata - WWS The problem for compairing the two is vast difference is crit, one week I get 31% white/30%WF and the next I get 39% white/40%WF. Edit: I was making a poor job of totem twisting this week vs not doing it previously, which may also have skewed the results. Last edited by Stigmata : 09/27/07 at 5:26 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3028 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | smokey |
Blizzard has fixed the tooltip of ashtongue talisman with the 2.2, anyone noticed if they changed the procrate too ?
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| #3029 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #3030 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Nemaa |
What is fixed in the tooltip?
I don't see any changes (searched armory, thottbot and wowhead) | |||||||||||
| #3031 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Hotiedraenei |
New JC Designs for Red, Yellow, Blue Sockets
What is the thoughts on the new Epic Jewel Crafting designs for the Bind on Pickup gems available to the Jewel Crafters?
Crimson Sun Stone of Blades How would those compare Red Socket to the Bold Living Ruby and Yellow Socket Inscribed Noble Topaz | |||||||||||
| #3032 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | syrixx |
2.3 Changes and unofficial patch notes
(Goto the above link for other changes/updates/and to click sources) ![]()
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| #3033 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 Edited onPatch 2.2.0 | Mbuzi |
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Last edited by Mbuzi : 09/27/07 at 5:07 PM. Reason: I was rude | |||||||||||
| #3034 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | • Shabadu |
I noticed a push on my Council DPS this week, under pretty much exactly the same circumstances, 3 haste pots used. I only got #1 this week because a rogue ate envenon/flamestrike/blizzard. I'm thinking my shitty Anetheron dps was a fluke.
Shabadu - WWS, last week Shabadu - WWS, last night | |||||||||||
| #3035 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Avair |
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The biggest question will be about the ease of dispellablity for Shamanistic Rage. This statement by Eynonix here: WoW Forums -> Enhancement shaman - Low blow ![]()
The main question will be, does this make Enh shaman viable in Arena? Time will tell I guess. | |||||||||||
| #3036 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #3037 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Atren |
Avair, unfortunaly in pvp perspective we are worse after 2.3 possibly. Rogues blind no longer poison (meaning we cant dispel it) and hunters getting dispel to their arcane shot. Also paladins seals are no longer dispellable if talented right. Overall if SR does not become immune to dispel then i would say we are clearly off worse.
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| #3038 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | siaheed |
I've been reading through the posts about slow/slow WF/WF being "the best". I've looked at the simulations I noticed that none of these simulations include FT. I been raiding with another shaman that uses slow weapons (talon of the pheonix / runic hammer) versus my slow fast (Decap / Tracker's blade) I'm coming out on top most of the time. If possible I'd like to see a simulation that includes current WF/FT.
Sims I found that look reliable yet lacked an FT option. crazy shaman's dps & AEP calculator shamulator | |||||||||||
| #3039 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Malan |
WWS parses and Armory links for both shaman to back that up, otherwise you're pretty much just posting hot air.
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| #3040 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | siaheed |
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The other shaman I will get the WWS parses as soon as possible, as our guild had a fallout and and disbanded. | |||||||||||
| #3041 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 Edited onPatch 2.2.0 | ◊ Rob |
Seems to me that Evenia should be coming out on top by gear alone, but you're probably more skilled than he, or getting better party buffs. (e.g. LoTP, BS, GoA, FI?)
It's also worth noting that you're using one of the best fast OHs and he's using one of the worst slow OHs. Last edited by Rob : 09/27/07 at 11:50 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3042 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 Edited onPatch 2.2.0 | Malan |
What you really need to tell us is whether you swapping in a slow weapon with WF on the same fights with same conditions produces better results. Comparing yourself to another shaman is going to be difficult - especially since right now we don't even know what fight you're talking about.
Edit - you're also going to need to provide pretty detailed consumable use and group structure to back up any claim like that. If you're getting Battleshout or LotP, and he's not, that's a huge frigging deal. Also as Rob said above, you're using a 100 DPS dagger and he's using one of the least preferred 80 DPS slow off hands. Last edited by Malan : 09/27/07 at 11:57 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3043 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | wocket |
Im just wondering, will the Mental Quickness change coming in 2.3 have any effect on the current AEP numbers or cause any significant change in the relative values of certain stats?
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| #3044 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | siaheed |
I don't switch weapons at all I'm using WF on my MH and FT on my OH, through trash and bosses. The only time I'm seeing a drop in Dps is on the banshee's in Hyjal when they put up anti-magic aura.
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another thing, has anyone tried a Lightning capacitator with FT? does it work? | |||||||||||
| #3045 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Malan |
Nope.
How big of a DPS gap are you talking about here anyways? | |||||||||||
| #3046 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
Stick with what you like, but if when get a chance for a 2.6s offhand drop, try it out.
I've tried swapping my WF [Boggspine Knuckles] for FT [Guile of Khoraazi] and it's about a 20 dps falloff with the faster weapon. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing an options to try ANY imbue in simulators, in part because it would help prove theories. I sometimes use Rockbiter when helping out new tanks, as i then get the Spirit Weapons reduction over 80% of my damage, instead of merely 50%. | |||||||||||
| #3047 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | fatforprom | ||||||||||||
| #3048 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 Edited onPatch 2.2.0 | Multane |
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If that is indeed what you are saying, and you have proof, would you please share it with me? Last edited by Multane : 09/27/07 at 12:58 PM. Reason: spelling | |||||||||||
| #3049 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | smokey |
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Glad they havent changed the insane proc rate ^^ | |||||||||||
| #3050 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Malan |
CM posts in the Shaman forum yesterday stated that the QA team reported back that Spirit Weapons affects *all* melee damage not just white attacks.
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| #3126 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | vorda |
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First: read the first post of this topic. Secondly: Give me a list of all the spells you use as enhance shaman when dpsing Finally: Notice how all of them (besides totem twisting) are on a cooldown. What does this tell you about 'cycles'? Dont go post stupid questions here if you are not going to take the time to think about the problem yourself abit. Also, dont sign your posts. | |||||||||||
| #3127 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Aeolian |
Onibox: I'm pretty sure its all in the first post, but generally its Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Earth Shock rinse and repeat. This is if your not twisting.
Don't sign your posts, and try reading the first post of threads you decide to 'contribute' to. Tq: No. | |||||||||||
| #3128 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Nobunda |
Had a interesting run in with I guess a fellow shaman (makes me cringe cause this guy was... well just one of those people that scare you when you think "There are really people out there like that").
Dont know who he was, a troll for sure cause he wouldn't bother to give me his Mains name. Nonetheless this person gave me the complete rundown on how to play a shaman using this place as his bible of course. Used my armory as a basis of his discussion (I guess armory is the best way to see what people are rolling with every minute of the game... learn something new everyday /sigh ) and to top it off, was very unprofessional about it. Now not being professional about the conversation wasn't a big surprise cause its World of warcraft, epeens can get stretched to there finest here. But nonetheless I figured a lil definition was in order... since some people lose site of people that believe everything they read... and those that actually see for themselves. ![]()
On a added note, because I really enjoyed the lude conversation I had with this person. He ran down everything that can be read here. I would like to say... awesome compilation of stuff and its all a very good read. It has helped my dps tremendously. Great job to those that have made this information viable by testing it and for putting it all in one place. Thank you. As well sorry for posting the definition... just kinda felt it was necessary in my own mind. | |||||||||||
| #3129 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Aeolian |
Your not the only one currently testing (or at least considering testing when the PTR comes on line) the viability of WF/FT or WF/FB or whatever other combination you care to come up with, but as of right now WF/WF will continue to offer the best overall DPS in most raid situations. Granted there are several debuffs available in raids that would increase the damage output of Flametongue, fast weapons would allow for constant procs and with the increased spell damage it could become a starting point, but I very much doubt it will overtake Windfury in pure DPS out put. Yes, these are mainly my own assumptions and observations, when the test realm comes online I will be doing my own testing to see what works.
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| #3130 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Nobunda |
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| #3131 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 Edited onPatch 2.2.0 | Shery |
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I had my eyes on those gloves too... in fact I think they are a great way of getting that +5 skill on maces before I can get my hands on the belt (my Guild hasnt killed Vashj just yet but we´re nearly there ). A shame they are a random trash drop form Kara :pPd: its a shame this itemization thing doesnt let us use Axes if we arent Orcs... i really love the way the axes look on my Shamy ![]() Last edited by Shery : 09/30/07 at 1:30 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3132 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 Edited onPatch 2.2.0 | Tornhoof |
NM, the problem is the 1.5/1.51 calculation.
Last edited by Tornhoof : 09/30/07 at 2:12 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3133 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | rava |
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| #3134 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Shery |
You´re right rava, my mistake. I was confusing them with this ones Grips of Deftness - Items - World of Warcraft
Quite similar anyway ^^ | |||||||||||
| #3135 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Rob |
The Decapitator's definitely an upgrade from Fool's Bane. Get one, but keep your Fool's Bane banked in case you pick up +mace skill itemization. (Keep in mind we don't know what will be in ZA.)
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| #3136 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ fangar |
I know a friend of mine ran a few sims with Decap vs Fools Bane and Fools Bane came out a tiny bit better using Yo's Sim. I didn't question it at the time and just figured the stats from FB outweighed it.
I'll have to model it, but it was interesting and unexpected. Can we just ignore the questions clearly asking about stuff that has been discussed? | |||||||||||
| #3137 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Pitbuller |
You have to calculate +3dps from [ The Decapitator ] use effect.
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| #3138 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Malan |
Can people please stop sending me PMs about whether X or Y item is better? I honestly don't give a shit about your armory, and 90% of you that are asking me questions are way ahead of me in progression anyways.
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| #3139 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Aeolian |
Poor Malan, thats what you get for starting a legendary thread.
Anyways, like I said, the Decapitator would be an upgrade, but my personal stance is that the Fool's Bane offers much more to you then the Decapitator and you don't lose out on much not using the Decapitator. | |||||||||||
| #3140 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Shery |
My intent wasnt about asking if X weapon was better than Y weapon. it was merely a doubt about the +skill as I didnt fully understand it in the OP. My apoligies if I brought up something already discussed in the thread and thx a lot for the help
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| #3141 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Malan |
I wasn't referring to you, you didn't send me a PM.
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| #3142 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Aeolian |
And he wasn't referring to you Malan. He was talking to me, and I believe that the Decapitator and Fool's Bane discussion was referring to something else. So.. everyone is confused.
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| #3143 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Chutoi |
I'll apologize in advance for this next post, but I'll ask it anyway.
I have 2 very fast weapons (bad I know). I understand that a slow offhand will increase dps as it eats fewer windfuries. However, I don't understand why a slow mainhand is good, unless it's to increase the size of the windfury crits (ie, large damage on slower weapons). Is that the thought process? Does a fast offhand really do all that badly? It seems like it would be more likely to proc a windfury once you're out of the 3 second internal cooldown. At any rate, while I'm working on a new 2.6 speed arena weapon for my offhand, which would be more effective: Runic Hammer: 83.5dps, 16 stam, 50 AP, and 2.4 speed or High Warlord's Cleaver 71.7 dps, 18 stam, 8 hit rating, 26 ap, 13 crit strike, 9 resiliance, and 2.6 speed? Does the additional .2 speed offset a 12 dps difference? I just don't understand the model. Sorry for the dumb questions, guys. I apologize for being slow! Chutoi | |||||||||||
| #3144 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | vorda |
The reason is that with flurry, haste procs, instants, etc, you can be pretty certain you'll proc WF very fast once you'r out of the CD. Do you want that WF proc to come from a weapon with a 170-330 dmg weapon or a 100-190 dmg weapon?
About the weapons, my money is on the runic hammer, but just run Yo!'s sim (linked in the first post). | |||||||||||
| #3145 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Aknazer |
Its not just the damage range on the weapon that matters for why a slow weapon is better, it's also because of the AP multiplier. 2.6 is a better multiplier than 1.8 is in terms of converting the AP into actual damage, which is another reason why slow weapons are better.
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| #3146 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | VinnieJones |
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| #3147 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Rob |
Why would you not use the throw function every single time it's up? It's like an earth shock with no mana cost.
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| #3148 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | VinnieJones |
To be honest, I had the decap for about a day before I decided I was tired of respeccing so often and decided to finish my second shaman as enhancement with blacksmithing and keep Vinnie as elemental. So I just didn't have time to figure out if the use would reset the swing timer, cause a gcd, or some other goofiness. That and it just never occurred to me to use it point blank. Curses for my first character being a hunter, and their dead zone.
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| #3149 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | david0925 |
I'm actually a bit curious about how good the 5 piece Cataclysm set is (5% extra to Flurry haste). Since aside from the Helm and the gloves, there are alternatives to the other 3 slots that are better, so I am wondering about a value (intuitive or quantative) of this bonus, then I can calculate to look at whether its worth it to go for it or not?
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| #3150 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Unaz |
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The use is instant, and I never noticed it resetting my swing timer. I macroed it to my Stormstrike like thus: ![]() /use The Decapitator /startattack /cast Stormstrike | |||||||||||
| #3151 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | rava |
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| #3152 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Galeyra |
I got a beginner's question.
I know shocks dont reset your swing timer, but a friend of mine recently told me, that if you shock when your swingtimer is ready, you just shock, and the autohit doesnt hit and is lost. I tried to reproduce this by shocking exactly when i would be hitting, but the attacks hits always, just the swing animation often got lost. So, is my friend wrong? And please help me to disprove him, because he insists on his opinion. Thanks for your reply | |||||||||||
| #3153 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Malan |
Sounds like you already solved the problem. Show him a combat log.
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| #3154 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Nisall |
I think you are correct in saying that only the animation gets lost. It is very easy to prove to your friend just take a screen shot of your combat log with timestamps showing that your swing and shock damage happen at the same time
EDIT: Too slow ![]() | |||||||||||
| #3155 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Malan |
Can anyone provide the math for Unleashed Rage uptime in terms of Crit Rating, for both DW and 2H scenarios?
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| #3156 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Rob |
For DW it's something like 97%+ in any raid buffed scenario so it's pretty irrelevant.
For 2H I would think it would be something like: % Up = 1 - (1-Crit Rating)^(10/Weapon Speed) So for WS 3.8 and CR 30% % Up = 1 - (1 - .3)^(10/3.8) = 1 - .7^2.63 = 1 - .39 = 61% You know, I just realized this is wrong since I didn't consider Flurry in the Weapon Speed term -- and this is why closed-form models are so hard to create for Shamans. I'll post it anyways as a starting point. | |||||||||||
| #3157 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | VinnieJones | ||||||||||||
| #3158 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 Edited onPatch 2.2.2 | oogg |
No Text.
Last edited by oogg : 10/03/07 at 5:17 PM. Reason: removed post since someone else clarified formulas | |||||||||||
| #3159 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Areus |
One thing that may need to be fixed as well, is that for DW, the WF proc% is 36% outside the 3s rule. The 2h would still have a 20% proc rate though.
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| #3160 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Dyamito |
Ring enchants, was wondering what is best for dps. I see some enhancement shamans with 12 spell damage to rings, with 2.3 coming out and upping our spell damage, I have a feeling that isn't the best. 2 damage to rings seems good, but for some reason I think having an altogether 8str, 8agi, 8stam, etc would just be overall better for dps in pve. Just was wondering your thoughts.
Thanks, The Resto Shaman | |||||||||||
| #3161 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | vorda |
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(I should make that my signature) | |||||||||||
| #3162 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Dyamito | ||||||||||||
| #3163 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | ♦ Malan |
Its discouraged. You have a big huge profile to the left of the post content that tells us who you are.
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| #3164 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.0 | Aknazer |
WF totem and warrior...WTF
Alright now I know that this has been beat into the ground and WF>GoA for warriors and non dagger rogues (am yet to see anything convincing saying WF>GoA for dagger rogues post nerf), but I was flipping through WWS reports of Lurker and this is what I found
Bood - WWS - 516 dps with GoA Bood - WWS - 630 dps with GoA Bood - WWS - 652 dps with WF Now that first attempt was our first time to down Lurker which is why I think its so much lower than the other 2, but in that last attempt he even had a Bloodmoon as opposed to the Lunar Cresent version for the first 2 kills. I would have expected his DPS to be much higher with WF over GoA. Sadly the rogues didn't take off their poisons even though I told them I wanted to test out WF to see the dps differences so I can't compare their dps of GoA vs WF, but Conobum (our best dagger rogue) did lose about 50dps by not having GoA. And the reason I normally have GoA down is because our group makeup is normally a feral druid, the war (he's a 33/28 2h slam spec), 2 dagger rogues, and me. Has anyone else seen things like this or have WWS reports of a war using GoA and then using WF on the same boss to compare the difference? | |||||||||||
| #3165 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Pitbuller |
Couple random WWS report dont proof anything but bad fluke. In second try he did more slams(42) and less autos(53) than third try slams(37), auto+wf(63). Some how he have lots of misses at last try 7-10% vs 3% misses at second.
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| #3166 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Malan |
Makes perfect sense to me that you're not seeing the gains you'd think you would. He's an Arms warrior and they took a heavy hit from the totem change, and most importantly he didn't use any "On next hit" attacks (Heroic Strike) and used Slam instead. Slam will not proc WF, and neither will Mortal Strike. So basically you put WF down and he got his procs only from his auto attacks.
Summary - your warrior needs to learn to use Windfury better. | |||||||||||
| #3167 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | evilution |
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It would be interesting to have a switch to turn this on and off within the model. | |||||||||||
| #3168 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Malan |
He's planning to do so, its a grayed out option on one of the panes. Just not implemented yet.
Simulator stuff is great, but we really need to grab the "why" of it so that I can present it in the article. Telling someone 'its better because the sim says so' will still generate a lot of responses of "well I do it this way, and its better." | |||||||||||
| #3169 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Aett |
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Also, many warriors don't use heroic strike because it has a strong, positive threat modifier on it. So if he's threat capped (which I can't imagine he is with that dps number) then it would make sense for him not to be using it. | |||||||||||
| #3170 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Malan |
Sure but Slam resets the swing timer, consumes rage, and does not proc WF.
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| #3171 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 Edited onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ fangar |
It's an interesting conversation and probably edges into the Arms warrior discussion thread. Prior to the WF Nerf Slam was without a doubt the best use of rage and effective DPS an arms warrior could do. If timed properly (just like a hunter rotation because of swing time resets) it far outshone using heroic strikes.
It would be interesting to see if there is any appreciable difference now with the WF nerf when working in HS. My thinking would be that Slam would still win out and the rotation will probably look like: Slam, Auto, MS, Auto, Slam As for the logs up top. You will notice differences in the set-ups that would tell an incomplete story. If you look at the parse where the warrior had WF you will see that he Deathwished just once vs 2 in the second parse and 3 in the third parse. Extra attack + more rage (for more damage) will always beat a couple percent more crit and sharpening stones IMO all else being equal. Last edited by fangar : 10/02/07 at 11:08 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3172 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ryakaz |
Can [Fel Edged Battleaxe] be better than [Runic Hammer] for DPS because I can put [Bold Living Ruby].
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| #3173 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ fangar |
Read the first post.
Figure out if there are ANY tools linked there that may be able to answer your question. | |||||||||||
| #3174 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Aknazer |
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That is about the rotation that is used only with WW worked in when MS is on CD and I think an extra reg attack when both MS and WW are on CD (happens every third rotation). Also he went with this spec for the extra 4% physical damage talent which helps all phyiscal damage dealers | |||||||||||
| #3175 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
Some napkin math on that follows using the average hit values from Loading...
No slam, no HS: Per 3.7 seconds: 788 + (788*.2) = 945.6 255 dps Slam, assuming .8 average swing timer disruption (improved slam): Per 4.5 seconds: 788 + (788*.2) + 979 = 1924.6 427 DPS Heroic strike: Per 3.7 seconds: 988 + (788*.2) = 1145.6 309 DPS Slam is still superior by quite a bit if it's used correctly, and it is considerably less threat, and doesn't take away the rage generated by the white hit. | |||||||||||
| #1936 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror | ||||||||||||
| #1937 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1938 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror | ||||||||||||
| #1939 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror | ||||||||||||
| #1940 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol | ||||||||||||
| #1941 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Apsalar | ||||||||||||
| #1942 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror |
Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 4:09 PM. | |||||||||||
| #1943 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | s315h1n |
Head Enchants
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| #1944 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #1945 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob | ||||||||||||
| #1946 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Iol | ||||||||||||
| #1947 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Apsalar | ||||||||||||
| #1948 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ayror | ||||||||||||
| #1949 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Apsalar | ||||||||||||
| #1950 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Celetroll | ||||||||||||
| #3301 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | berg |
The leather/mail dispute really becomes a non factor at T6. There are a lot of random pieces and fortunately for us the rogues and hunters love their T6 sets.
Our T6 set is a little bit skanky except for the gloves which are top notch. So picking up random mail/leather is really easier than it has ever been. Seriously though our T6 set is going to look even worse in 2.3. Who needs 40 mp5? Those points could have been like 50 agi and -350 armor or something along those lines which would have made the set amazing. | |||||||||||
| #3302 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | david0925 |
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| #3303 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Stigmata |
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Also "Skanky" the set while it has wasted points on mp5 is still really good imo, the hit lost from the alternatives is, well, not acceptable to me at least. | |||||||||||
| #3304 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Ridan |
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Nothing official of course. | |||||||||||
| #3305 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 Edited onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Malan |
Looks like wowdigger.com still has a char planner available so I'm working on the entry level shaman set now.
Edit - bah nevermind their interface seems broken, lots of items won't add to the character. Maybe we can just find an armor profile of someone who closely matches the approximation? Last edited by Malan : 10/04/07 at 1:31 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3306 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | berg |
There are no changes to shaman T6. Just noticing how mp5 will be even less valuable next patch than it is now since our mana burden goes down in 2.3.
That said I have avoided t6 entirely aside from the gloves. I agree that the hit is hard to make up but some of those pieces are genuinely confusing with their over spending on stam, int and mp5. | |||||||||||
| #3307 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Malan |
This thread [RAID] Boss armor values has some good data that I'm sure some people here would be interested in.
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| #3308 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 Edited onPatch 2.2.2 | Ilmater |
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1) Rogues and hunters would get bigger dps increases from leather and mail upgrades (respectively) than we would, if both of us were moving from the same piece to the same piece. 2) If an enhance shaman, a hunter, and a rogue are all geared in the best gear they can get from heroics with no Kara gear, and all are allowed to roll on any items that are an upgrade for them, and all go to Kara together every week, the Shaman will get upgrades faster than either of the other two. My point isn't that we shouldn't be allowed to roll on anything but scraps. My point is, we should pick either rolling on mail but getting leather when the rogues/druids don't want it, or getting leather and rolling on mail when hunters don't want it. The reason is, if we don't do it that way, then we'll be gearing up faster than either of them, even though we can't put that gear to as good of use as they can. I can't imagine a guild (non-DKP at least) that wouldn't have a problem with you rolling on anything that's an upgrade for you. If you do use DKP, I think it's smarter to wait for the best gear for you at every level, which is always going to be leather. If everyone thinks we should be valuing mail, then put an AEP behind it. From my perspective, mail is almost always worse than leather, and it's only going to be moreso after 2.3, when water shield will mean we would have minimal mana issues, even in all leather. Last edited by Ilmater : 10/04/07 at 1:49 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3309 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | BoinKlasik |
edit: nevermind, i post too slow.
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| #3310 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 Edited onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Malan |
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As I said, I take every upgrade as it presents itself. If its mail and there's better leather out there, well I'll either wait my turn on it or maybe the rogues will drop in priority before that item drops and I'll get it anyways. Drops are not guaranteed. You could pass an upgrade on a mail item only to never see the leather one. Does that make sense? Its fine if you disagree, that's your method in your system. But I'm not going to make a blanket statement of "never take mail" or "only take it under X Y and Z situations" because that is highly dependent upon the individual player and their guild environment. Edit @Boink - No. 2.3 is changing talents such that Enhance will be more mana efficient, thus making the value of Mp5 even worse. No changes to gear have been announced or even rumored. Last edited by Malan : 10/04/07 at 1:59 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3311 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Kemerogh |
DKP and Item Priority
When you're in a guild enviorment you're focus should be on the progression of the guild. If there is an Item that will increase youre overall Dps or effectivness to the raid what so ever over somthing you have now and would not net gain the raid more by going to another player than you should take it regardless of your loss of priority if the famed X item drops that you want. You should be trying to get as good as possible as quickly as possible. Not passing on items because you would like to hope for somthing better later on.
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| #3312 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Juice |
Can we debate DKP and looting practices someplace else? This thread is better off discussing the bottom line impact/effectiveness of loot item X or Y, not which class should have first loot priority or if a guild should allow DKP stockpiling in the face of upgrades.
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| #3313 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Ilmater |
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Let me try to say this a different way: When I see an enhance shaman in all mail gear (I see plenty), I immediately assume they're bad... because they are. There is no way they have never come upon a possibility for leather gear somewhere. That's why I think there should be something in the first post saying, AT LEAST, "Hey, leather gear is really good for enhancement shaman. The armor doesn't really matter for raiding | |||||||||||
| #3314 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Ilmater |
My original question dealt with itemization, and specifically what should be on the first page of this thread. I firmly believe we should say SOMETHING about leather gear vs. mail gear in the first post.
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| #3315 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | david0925 |
I think the following paragraph can be included to clear up the confusion. Feel free to use it in the front page if you want to Malan. These are really information that's being repeated. Feel free to correct me if I have any bad information as well.
Itemization -In a Nut Shell Actively Pursue: Strength, Agility, Crit Rating, Attack Power Do not actively pursue, but do not avoid: Hit Rating Actively Avoid: Mp5 What does not matter: Armor Class In terms of Tier 5 and Lower, a lot of the mail DPS pieces offered involve a substantial amount of MP5. Due to the fact that MP5 cost a large amount of item budget, the actual DPS stat that Enhancement Shaman are able to use are greatly diminished. On the other hand, Rogue itemization (abundance of agility, crit rating, and attack power) is near optimal for a Shaman in a lot of the cases. As a result, Leather should NOT be avoided because of its armor class. In a 25 man raid setting, it often matters little to an enhancement shaman as most mobs hit too hard to make Armor Class distinguished (most mob can one or two shot you regardless of armor class). Whether you should take Leather over a Rogue or a druid is an ethical problem we're not going to cover here. However, from the pure viewpoints of stat allocation, do NOT actively avoid leather. | |||||||||||
| #3316 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Shalas |
There's no reason to "activly avoid" mp5. Given two otherwise identical items, the item with more mp5 certainly isn't worse than the item with less, and in some situations will be slightly better. If itemization was perfect you'd never want to equip an item with mp5 on it, but with actual itemization it's entirly possible for an item with wasted stat points to still be the best item available for that slot.
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| #3317 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Ilmatar |
Errr, this is getting really nitpickey. I mean, we could discuss the merits of putting Stormstrike as hotkey '4' on the action bar vs '7' since '4' is closer to the home-row too thus maximizing both your dps and your wpm, as well.
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| #3318 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Ilmater |
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You all agree with my point that leather is good, so why not mention it in the first post? | |||||||||||
| #3319 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | rava |
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I'll totally agree that almost any stat is better, but int is something that shouldn't be totally disregarded. New watershield will definitely alleviate some of the mana pressure, though! | |||||||||||
| #3320 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
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Seriously, do you think there are shamans that grasp the complexities of weapon speed and windfury interaction at a level where they actually understand it that haven't put any consideration in to using leather gear? | |||||||||||
| #3321 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ravezero |
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I'm hoping these Shammy talent changes indicates some specialized mail will be in our itemization future that sits low on mp/5 and int and focuses strongly on our more valuable AEP stats. Possibly some of the new Badge of Justice items? Cross your fingers... I'd rather be in mail, but not at the cost of DPS. | |||||||||||
| #3322 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | reverendwill |
Why is a resto shaman wearing mail arguing so hard about leather to enhancement shamans? If I believe what you say then you suck as a shaman because you have no leather items. If all you really wanted was a mention in the first post that shamans shouldn't over look leather items, it shouldn't take three huge posts to make your point.
I agree with Malan, take whatever upgrade your guild allows you to get. This is not a huge deal. | |||||||||||
| #3323 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Illundai |
I'm bad because I'm in all mail gear? Wow.
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| #3324 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Oteb |
Hmm. I think i found a glitch in Yo! sim.
It improperly applies thundering strikes to WF and StormStrikewhile this talent effects white damage only | |||||||||||
| #3325 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Stigmata |
@Ilmater, Are you posting purely to try to get a rise out of people?
I suggest you head back to the wow forum and take the attitude with you. | |||||||||||
| #3326 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Rob | ||||||||||||
| #3327 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Ahindwe |
Agreed. There are several very well informed, skilled and progressed players posting in this thread that wear little or no leather at all. The attitude and blanket statements based on opinion aren't really needed here.
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| #3328 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Roxn |
Stochastics
I'm new to the forum. This is in fact my first post. I have been interested in the mathematics of melee dps for a long time but have never been able to think of a simple way to model it. As an applied math grad student my first impulse is to use stochastics.
The problem I can't get past is how to reconcile the different time scales inherent in the problem. Talents like flurry, windfury, unleashed rage etc create small time scale correlations. Most of what I've read so far appear to be central limit theorem approximations. Which are valid only for very long time scales. My intuition tells me that on most of the timescales that matter in this game such an approximation is probably not very good. A common means of reconciling these time scales in applied math is to "match" a small time scale solution to the long time scale (central limit theorem) solution. Has anyone considered this? Has anyone derived a stochastic or otherwise dynamical model for enhancement shaman dps? | |||||||||||
| #3329 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Malan |
This is wrong. Thundering Strikes affects ALL melee damage and was confirmed as such recently by a CM post.
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| #3330 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Igniter |
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| #3331 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 Edited onPatch 2.2.2 | T.K. |
Retarded double post
Last edited by T.K. : 10/05/07 at 4:51 PM. Reason: double post | |||||||||||
| #3332 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 Edited onPatch 2.2.2 | T.K. |
About mail vs. leather disc:
Saying that some class should have priority over some type of item is just poor sighting of raid potential increment. All systems used by guilds all over the world have their ups and downs, and they work fine for them. Be it DKP, loot councyl, roll or whatever, those systems have their own ways of normalizing the itens distribution over the raid. Such distribution is needed so the raid has it's power evenly distributed among all members. Why would we want to distribute raid power among all? Basically because if you do like you say and let hunters and rogues get it first because supoosedly they get more of it than a enhance. and one of them die or whatever, you loose a damn chunck of raid power. If you let people roll at what they need, their loot system will at some point soothen the raid power along all members such if one or two die you still have the power to continue encounters. What good would be, for example, to give all loot to a warrior tank if you use a paladin tank at some point and he's not geared to handle it? What good for would be a hunter that had pref at all mail gear and for some reason died at a encounter? loosing a good chunk of raid power with just one death is bad at my eyes and so i'd try to avoid it at any time. Here what i really think people is trying, is to show people what would they look after, and than everyone can make their own decisions, not just point out loud: "YOU SHOULD TAKE THIS OVER THIS!!!" About the group setup and second enhance... My raid uses 2 enhance shammies most of the time. We currently at 20% Kael (when healers amazingly let our tank die without any heals in more than 20 secs O.o). Our groups comp. are almost all the time: G1 Rogue Rogue Rogue/Drood DPS warr Enhance. Shammy G2 (Wich i'm aways at) Hunter Mark Hunter BM Enhance. Shammy (Me) Spriest Drood We're really having some nice results with this, as my dps is almosy aways higher than other shammy and our hunters just rape things with this much mana support such. i know this is not perfect buffing setup, but it's been working fine for us and i think we'll be using that for hyjal/BT anyway. Here's my Armory if anyone interested... The Armory Oh...btw, KAEL DOWN!!!!! YEAH BABE!! Last edited by T.K. : 10/05/07 at 4:53 PM. Reason: Can't stop "U"!!! | |||||||||||
| #3333 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Sebudai |
Personally I try to stick with mail items and let the rogues get their leather first, even if some of the leather items are clearly better than the mail ones for me. Once the zone is on farm and the rogues have all picked up what they need, I'll go ahead and start sending on the good leather items. Our loot system promotes sending on small upgrades like this.
I definitely plan on eventually looting Midnight Chestguard, Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Insidious Bands, Shadowmaster's Boots and Don Alejandro's Money Belt. Cursed Vision and Midnight Chestguard are pretty ridiculous items, actually. They're way better than the mail equivalents. My math has Cursed Vision a full 80 AEP better than the next best helm. =P | |||||||||||
| #3334 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Denrye |
Weapon Choices
First, this may be in pages 5-95 of this thread, and if so I apologize.
But when I look at the end game weapon choices listed, and the combinations that are recommended, I noticed several of the advised combinations use OH weapons that are faster than the MH weapons. This seems to me to be something which, although it may allow you to actually equip better weapons, would ultimately be detrimental to overall dps. | |||||||||||
| #3335 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | rava |
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| #3336 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | PSGarak |
Roxn, I think Stochastics is an unecessarily heavy hammer to hit the problem with. Most of the problems reduce algebraicly without too much work. Of course, I dislike probability in the first place so I'm probably biased.
If I understand you right, an example of your primary concern is how to model flurry and windfury since flurry affects windfury cooldowns (in number of swings) and windfury affects flurry proc rate? I think modeling that as an iterative or dynamic process is unnecessary. While I haven't done the work it seems like the relation could be disentangled into a closed-form solution with simple algebra, for flurry uptime (in percent of swings) and effective windfury proc rate. | |||||||||||
| #3337 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 Edited onPatch 2.2.2 | Brachamul |
Flametongue
Hi,
I'd like to make a comment regarding Flametongue Weapon with patch 2.3. Back in the days before BC I played elemental, and I figured that 10% of my spell power went straight into my Flametongue Weapon's damage. This happened regardless of weapon speed, meaning a very fast weapon was clearly favorable. If things haven't changed, and with the +15% damage to flametongue talent, this is how much damage a Shaman would deal with a 1.4 speed weapon if he had 0 spell damage but 2500ap converted into spell damage. Base Flametongue damage on 1.4 weapon (Offhand) : Base = 50 damage per hit Spell Power through AP = 750 Damage per Hit = (75+50)*1.15 = 125 = 145 Damage per Second = 100 DPS is increased by Flurry obviously. (I realise these numbers are quite rough, but they are mainly here to give you an idea.) Do you think that Flametongue will maybe beat Windfury under certain conditions after 2.3 for an Offhand weapon? EDIT: In fact, in raid situation, the boss will generally be affected by the fire mage +15% fire damage, and the Curse of Elements, +10% fire damage, so the added DPS will go up to around 126 damage / sec. Last edited by Brachamul : 10/05/07 at 7:49 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3338 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | rava |
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| #3339 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Oteb |
Could you elaborate a little? I know there are different systems for determining hits for white and yellow damage. But I dont think i understand why swstats always shows my white crit % to be 4-5% higher than my yellow crit%. Is it because it calculates crit% out of connected swings and its ends up higher since i miss more with white than yellow making same number of crit% end up being higher % total? And would/should the be exactly the same at hit cap?
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| #3340 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Mulgero |
Back shortly to leather vs. mail discussion I think this is a bit eternal discussion as rogues don't want enhance to roll "their" loot and hunter propably either. It really won't work well if you wait gearing up yourself letting rogues and hunters get loot first cause they might do marginally more damage with the pieces than you.
Mage A does more damage than mage B, should B let mage A have all loot first cause he can pump out more damage due being maybe little more skilled with stop macros or just happens to have less lag? Answer is no. Everyone in raid need to gear up not just guy or 2 by taking best gear availlable (common sense should be of course used). I'd love to use mail only but more or less leather just seems to be best option no matter of what instance we talk. With kara and gruul gear I have about 6k mana raid buffed and I don't see how much another 2k mana would be more beneficial than adding those points along mp/5 to str/ap/crit... As long as you can keep totems up and run mana based skills/spells will not do more damage than melee/wf. I like the idea in 2.3 changes for enhance that casting might have bigger role in enhance shamans skill usage and dps but still it won't make int or mp/5 preferred or even wanted stats on enhance gear. | |||||||||||
| #3341 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | crimsonsentinel |
Don't know if this is for raiding shaman only so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, but here goes:
If I'm leveling a shaman (basically crap gear, low crit/hit rates, low AP, although I can probably buy decent blue weapons), is it still worth it to use windfury on both hands (or a 2 hander before level 40) with slow weapons or will it be better to use flametongue? All the posts I've seen are based of normal level 70 raiding stats so I don't really know how to compare. | |||||||||||
| #3342 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Stigmata |
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| #3343 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 Edited onPatch 2.2.2 | Jerem |
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During your levelling, FT on fast weapons might be more efficient, but I just saw my 0-70 levelling as an opportunity to start getting familiar with what my gameplay would be at 70, and to put some "theories" into application (you never really KNOW that slow/slow is better for WF until you see it, I guess). Using WF on slow/slow, waiting for a WF proc before using Stormstrike, selecting my gear (whether it was quest rewards or greens from the AH) following the logic described here might not have been the fastest or easiest way to level up, but it certainly gave me automatisms I still use when I'm raiding or running Heroics with my Shaman. EDIT : and to answer the question better, I was spending about 20G every 3 or 4 levels on a blue BoE mace when I could. I could afford it easily, and good speed and stats weapons are rare, so I just took any upgrade I could. But, as Stigmata said, you do replace them every few levels. Last edited by Jerem : 10/05/07 at 8:49 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3344 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Shabadu |
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| #3345 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | siaheed |
With everyone asking about the FT proc being better or not every couple days does anyone have a simulator that has FT imbue as an option? I know Yo's doesn't and that seems to be what everyone is treating as gospel. I think its only fair if FT damage was properly added to this simulator or any other simulators not mentioned in the first post where your getting all this parse info from about windfury.
I think that if FT is properly represented in a simulator in its current state you'll find that it may exceed WF in some gear setups/ raids and that Wf/Wf will be better for solo/group, unless your trying to hit a banshee in Hyjal =/ | |||||||||||
| #3346 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | dedy |
Hi all this is my first post i hope this question doesnt interfere in the topic.
I have played few months with 2 fel edged axes Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fel Edged Battleaxe But this week i have obtained, 2 new weapons and now i dont know what to do: here you got both combinations MH Fool's Bane + OH merciless gladiator cleaver Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fool's Bane Thottbot World of Warcraft: Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver or MH merciless gladiator cleaver + OH fel edged axes Friends tell me second option is better because merciless in off hand lost lot of damage but i dont know if the first option makes up for this lost of damage What do you think first option or second? | |||||||||||
| #3347 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | berg |
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| #3348 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | Pitbuller |
Dear dedy. First read first post then you will notice that there is some simulator(easy to use) and you can do all hard work for yourself.
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| #3349 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 Edited onPatch 2.2.2 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
ATTENTION EVERY PERSON SAYING THAT FLAMETONGUE WILL BE AWESOME.
Flametongue gets 10% of your spell damage as +dmg. That means once 2.3 is introduced that you will have 3% of your AP as +damage for Flametongue (.1*.3*AP). Three percent. Assuming that you somehow manage to get the best fast dagger in the game ( Messenger of Fate - Items - World of Warcraft ), its 1.4 speed means you're going to do 65/2 = 33 (we'll be generous) damage per hit with it before +dmg. If you have 3000 AP, it'll get 90 additional damage per hit for a total whopping per-hit damage of 122, or 87 DPS. Even assuming a full Scorch stack and Curse of Elements, it tops out at 110 DPS. A laughably low crit rate means you might get 120 DPS out of it if you're lucky. OR. You could get Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft [earlier in the zone no less]-- with 3000 AP, a single extra Windfury proc on the offhand is worth around 520 damage on each hit assuming no crits, meaning at least 1000 damage per proc. If you've got a 30% crit rate, it's worth an average of 1352. Without a single debuff on the mob and assuming it's got 7700 armor for ~43% mitigation (the high average among raid mobs as reported by this thread), you're still looking at 770 per proc. Debuffing the NPC with a full sunder stack and faerie fire drops the mob to ~4400 AC and ~30% mitigation, your average offhand WF proc is still worth 946 per hit. This means you'd need an average of 7.8 FT hits to make up for a single offhand WF proc -- an actual proc rate of 13% is all that is needed for Windfury to equal Flametongue's best circumstances. This is to say nothing of the fact that even as a Draeni you're going to get a 12% resist rate on Flametongue against Boss NPCs without gearing for spell hit whereas you can eliminate any WF misses completely through talents alone, leaving only dodges to contend with (this is assuming you went resto for the rest of your points for 3% hit/spellhit -- ironically putting points in the elemental tree makes Flametongue's damage worse since you lose 3% spell hit). Additionally, Flametongue will not proc Flurry nor Shamanistic Rage and using a fast weapon lowers your Stormstrike damage since it is not a normalizied attack. Further still, FT makes no use of Leader of the Pack, Blood Frenzy, or -Armor items or further debuffs on the NPC. Haste will affect FT in a more positive manner than WF because of the cooldown, but not by a significant amount. You would need an unreasonably large amount of passive haste to close the gap between the two imbues. Flametongue will not be worth using in raids for Enhancement shamans until they change the way it scales. Edit: I screwed up and used the FT main hand damage value initially. It's actually much worse. Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 10/05/07 at 11:41 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3350 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.2 | berg |
Also moogle having FT on offhand takes mh wf back down to ~20% instead of the roughly 35% it is with dw wf.
All things considered this will still give us huge benefits to searing totem, healing stream and our shocks so it is a fabulous change for us but flame tongue will not be viable unless it is completely revamped. | |||||||||||
| #2026 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Ilmatar | ||||||||||||
| #2027 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Strawberry |
Last edited by Strawberry : 08/31/07 at 1:18 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2028 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #2029 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Igniter | ||||||||||||
| #2030 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #2031 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob | ||||||||||||
| #2032 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Igniter | ||||||||||||
| #2033 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | s315h1n | ||||||||||||
| #2034 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nite_Moogle | ||||||||||||
| #2035 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Hadera | ||||||||||||
| #2036 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Toots Hepcat | ||||||||||||
| #2037 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Nite_Moogle | ||||||||||||
| #2038 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Abrax | ||||||||||||
| #2039 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 Edited onPatch 2.1.3 | Sebudai |
Last edited by Sebudai : 08/31/07 at 6:34 PM. | |||||||||||
| #2040 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.1.3 | Rob | ||||||||||||
| #3476 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Disquette |
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Thanks much. | |||||||||||
| #3477 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
I don't think your value for Stormstrike mana cost is correct. Is 8% of our base mana really 560 mana? I know I'm always able to stormstrike before I am able to drop another totem, if I've gone dry to that point.
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| #3478 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava | ||||||||||||
| #3479 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Disquette |
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That takes the SS mana / 2min to 2980 mana, and the overall mana per 2 min to 8235 before using any shocks, 14073 using one every 10 sec. Thanks much for the error catch. | |||||||||||
| #3480 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Ilmatar |
In argument for downranking WF Totem: The benefit gained from the extra hit is far greater than the additional attack power on that extra hit. If the downranking lets you sustain the twisting longer, or get more shocks in, I think that the downranked totem would come out on top. I don't have the math to back that up, but the AP bonus gained remains constant, and as gear scales, the important thing becomes the extra hit.
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| #3481 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Rapparee |
I swear my stormstrike is in the 200s for mana consumption.
That drops your two minute values to 14k-ish mana spent. On trash, I spend a lot of time running, chasing ghouls, chasing dogs, standing in damn ice from shoulder-winking orcs as they saunter off, so that saves some mana. For bosses (kaz'rogal not included, and i've not faced anyone past teron/gurtogg yet), I find that due to random heals, silences, aoe and so on, that I rarely get to fully utilize stormstrike and earth shock. I never get to cast flame shock on a boss. So while I agree that your cycle sounds incredibly harsh for two minutes. It's not really something I get to experience in full force for 2 minutes at a time. There is always some time spent running for me at least. On Teron and Akama, I do have to chug supermana potions as soon as cooldown is up, since I do in fact just stand in place for the most part. On most other bosses, I drink supermana every so often. In a normal night of 4.5 hours raiding, I drink between 4 and 10. That said, I'm one of those drop max WF, GoA, SS.... randomly throw in an ES. And I don't have mana problems with my lackluster gear. Once 2.3 hits and I start forcing ES full time, maybe i'll remember your clever trick of less than max WF totem. I look forward to being mana limited. Last edited by Rapparee : 10/09/07 at 4:15 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3482 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Unaz |
I've been gradually starting to twist more on certain fights where there's not a lot of movement, but typically I will do it until I am about 30% mana, and then will stop twisting and jsut keep up WF. And only ss/shocking from there until I have my mana back.
Of course, if I really need to start cranking it out, I could start chugging mana pots like other caster classes. I think most enhancement shamans now are sliding in to the comfortable zone of not having to use super pots much at all, or only in emergencies (after a res/mana drain). I know I can usually get by with just the cheap combat pots for the most part, although I have supers as well jsut in case. Also, max rank talented windfury totem is 457 (502 with UR?) more AP then untalented rank 1 Windfury totem. Which isn't exactly a difference to ignore over the duration of a fight. Last edited by Unaz : 10/09/07 at 4:17 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3483 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
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4529-(109*15)=2894, 2894*.08=231.52 for SS mana cost, 231.52/1.06=218.4 for SS mana cost with Mental Quickness. These values are like 2 off of the total which I guess has to do with exact #s somewhere, but going off of listed SS cost and backwards math that's about as close as I can get to the 221 it costs me to SS. | |||||||||||
| #3484 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Disquette |
Hey, thanks a bunch rava. I don't usually do much with spell casting and mana. Obviously it shows :-\ I appreciate the explanation.
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| #3485 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Shamrokk |
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Anetheron Loading... Shamshokk - WWS High Warlord Naj'entus Shamshokk - WWS | |||||||||||
| #3486 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Shamrokk |
Here is a wws for Gorefiend kill after posting the previous ones there are some down times in those due to being slept on Anetheron and not needing to drop totems or shock during Naj shield. Gorefiend and Akama are the only 2 fights I can think of atm that we have completed (Hyjal cleared working on council) that you can stand there and dps 100% of the time as long as you dont get the debuff on gorefiend and well akama is less then a min if you have a mana issue there you need to reroll. All the other fights seem to have downtime in them or you are in resist gear
Shamshokk - WWS | |||||||||||
| #3487 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
Yeah that WWS parse of Gorefiend is a real good example of just how much JoW shines. It seems that on most fights where we need it our paladins remember to keep JoL up but never JoW.
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| #3488 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
I had an encounter related question here, how do other Shamans experience Kaz'Rogal? I hate him with a passion and I just don't seem to be able to find a way to do better DPS on him. One time I'll go OOM, the other time I'll be spammed with Cripples.
Do others use full Shadow Res on him or? Does it help to resist Cripple? And does Living Action Potion maybe remove Cripple? I've tried both approaches and I really am not too sure what the best one is. As far as Marks go, on the first one I use a mana pot, second one I get I use SR... And hopefully by the time I'll need it my SMP cd will be gone, shortly followed by a SR. That' doesnt always happen, though :p. Sometimes I just have to back away and stand there exploding, which obviously doesn't help my DPS... Any tips or experiences? Some parses: Khaelyn - WWS I went OOM on this one, didn't resist a lot of Marks.. That was with ~200 SR. Khaelyn - WWS Didn't go OOM, wore almost full SR. Resisted all but one Mark. I just feel that I can do more DPS on a fight like that, that's why I'm trying to find out some tricks perhaps. | |||||||||||
| #3489 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Stigmata |
I dont use any shadow res, I have cow range to avoid war stomps, and i rarely get crippled.
I usually shock sparingly for the first minute or so then once i pop SR spam shocks and totem twist until its dead. I have never blown up on this fight, and only once when I wasnt paying attention did I even get close to being low enough for the next mark to have a negative impact on my play. | |||||||||||
| #3490 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Sebudai |
I stopped using any SR on that fight once our paladins started using JoW. Make sure you refresh Water Shield, because he activates it quite often. Your fate is sort of in the hands of the rest of the raid on this encounter. The best way to not run out of mana is to kill him really fast. =P
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| #3491 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
Do you have any WWS from your kills ? Cause I don't think we take extraordinarily long to kill it, but I still go OOM :P.
The water shield tip was nice btw, can't believe I didn't think of that... And I'm guessing it will only get better next patch :P. Last edited by Illundai : 10/09/07 at 5:58 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3492 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
Encouraging your feral druids to give you their innervates helps on that fight, too, if you're getting unlucky with marks!
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| #3493 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
Yah I seem to recall Stigmata getting 2 innervates on a fight and not knowing that he had.
![]() Illundai you don't keep water shield up all the time anyways? It triggers constantly, almost every AoE effect (even ones that don't do damage) proc it. | |||||||||||
| #3494 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Shabadu |
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Most recent parse using only BT neck for SR. Shabadu - WWS | |||||||||||
| #3495 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Sebudai |
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WWS WWS I think these are the only ones I have when I'm not wearing SR. I used to use SR, but I slowly started taking more and more pieces off each week until I eventually wasn't wearing any. When you guys engage him are you dragging him all over the place to get all the NPC's involved before you start actually DPS'ing? | |||||||||||
| #3496 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
For reasons I'm not aware of, we don't bother with the Taurens. Bit silly I guess, but I doubt we'll be changing strategies at this point.
And I do try to keep up Water Shield, but often I don't really have it 100% up... More like 50% of the time. I only recently switched to Enhancement so I'm still getting used to it =/ | |||||||||||
| #3497 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Disquette |
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First off, I was in the tank group, so no battleshout for me. That of course affects my SR returns. The other thing is the twisting uptime. What I mean is - for every 10 seconds of combat, in an ideal situation, there should be one WF and one GoA totem. Here's a parse from last night of me on Morogrim: Anga - WWS (and yes, if you look at the other stuff, we had an abysmal time with vashj for some reason last night, pls ignore :p I'm using the anonymous parse to protect the innocent ).The fight lasted 6min and 58 seconds = 418 seconds, so that would require 42 totem twists. You can see from the parse I had 100% uptime with 43 twists. I'll thank my shamelessly plugged addon for making this possible I also had 3 fire nova totems in addition to a few flame shocks and the usual fire elemental and heroism mana soaks.In the parses listed, you had: Shamshokk - WWS 19 twists out of 262 seconds = 73% uptime Shamshokk - WWS 22 twists out of 272 seconds = 81% uptime Shamshokk - WWS 13 twists out of 260 seconds = 50% uptime I'm not saying this is necessarily bad (I've never even done those fights, so I don't know what's appropriate), just that one of the reasons some people might not experience the same mana starvation I was having. You spent a higher % of your mana on more shocking (again, not saying it's wrong, just pointing out a difference), whereas I spent mine on twisting, and qq'ing about not having battle shout! ---------------------- Edit, for fun: Anga - WWS That's all the trash packs for the night. 255 twists out of 2580 seconds = 98.8% uptime. I'm a twisting fiend. But, if I want to go on raids, I have to service the tank group, and with a druid and warrior tank, there's really no alternative but to twist to keep them both happy. Last edited by Disquette : 10/09/07 at 7:40 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3498 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Shamrokk |
Yea I looked back to try to find a tidewalker fight been a while since we were in SSC the only one I could find isone from before i started twisting but you can see the power of having our ret pally in raid and being in the melee group in the amount of mana i get throughout an 8 min fight to allow me to twist and shock with
Shamshokk - WWS | |||||||||||
| #3499 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
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/cast water shield /run local f = CreateFrame"Frame" f:RegisterEvent"CHAT_MSG_SPELL_AURA_GONE_SELF" f:SetScript("OnEvent", function(_,_,m) if m:match("Water Shield") then UIErrorsFrame:AddMessage("RECAST WATERSHIELD") end end) It displays in the mid top of the screen and has been quite some help with all of the garbage I have to pay attention to in a raid. | |||||||||||
| #3500 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
In particular, our guild has the tank standing in the middle who then gets MD'd to. Over the next one to two minutes he drags Kaz'rogal up to the taurens warriors, then across to Thrall. I'd say that between warstomps and cripples, melee lose a fair amount of damage during this time, but maybe this is made up for by getting the tauren warriors and Thrall involved.
Last edited by Xoya : 10/09/07 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Grammar | |||||||||||
| #3576 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Tornhoof |
Ah yes, Glancing Blows, 6.25 Adjusted Attacktable factor (100-28+20-5-6.25+40)/100 = 1.202
This explains the missing 0.06. 0.71*1.5*1.202*1.254*1.1*(2500*1.1/14+100) = 523 DPS Still missing 30 dps somewhere. | |||||||||||
| #3577 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | • Krish |
There are two important questions that I'd like to ask:
1) Yo, the way your simulator is currently set up, I am getting a measly 47 DPS from Flameshock/Earthshock with CoE, Scorch, and Misery selected, and the 30% AP -> spell damage deselected (if I select it, I'm only getting 87 DPS). This seems very low to me, and so I was wondering if the default values for boss resistances are incorrect at 365. Am I simply overestimating how much DPS shocks should contribute? I'm using 5.4% spell crit and 3% spell hit. Normally, since there is nothing you can really do to change how much DPS the proper shock rotation does, I'm not too worried. I am, however, using a second pawn string to show me the AEP values of items after the 2.3 change, so that I can make good long-term decisions now. The accuracy of shock damage values essentially affects the relative weight of AP and Strength, and determines by how much the value of the other stats decreases. 2) There has been some discussion of the benefits of waiting until you're outside the 3 second internal WF cooldown to Storm Strike. I have yet to find any good math that would help me determine just how long it might be worth waiting. I also have the Ashtongue Talisman, which would seem to complicate this some. Disquette, I'm loving DisqoDice for this, but would just love to know how to use this information to its fullest. I was thinking that Yo's simulator could probably help us arrive at some good math if it were changed to allow the simulator to optimize a "maximum time to wait for SS" kind of output. Last edited by Krish : 10/11/07 at 4:51 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3578 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | • Disquette |
Krish, I know what you mean. Pretty much If I have 1/2 a red bar or less, I'm waiting for it. Half a red bar or more, I SS anyway. It's largely dependent on global cooldowns also, though.
If I have 2/3 of a red bar when WF is expiring, I'm redropping the totem, and the global CD takes me most of the way through the red bar anyway. | |||||||||||
| #3579 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Slothrop |
Basic totem-twisting build?
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This note from drats implies that even the last point is needed in mental quickness in order to totem twist and rotate shocks. But the typical builds I have seen for enhancement (e.g. 0/42/19: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator) do not assign any points at all to mental quickness. What would be considered a basic, no-frills build for totem-twisting enhancement shamans? | |||||||||||
| #3580 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | • Nite_Moogle |
Depending on your mana constraints, the main thing you're going to want is 5 points in Totemic Focus, which drops the mana cost of the totems much more than MQ does. With the 2.3 notes out in the wild, there will probably be a fair amount of discussion about what what the new 'staple' build is.
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| #3581 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
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| #3582 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | berg |
This is somewhat depressing. Even the most careless analysis comes to a very quick and very clear conclusion about the quality of that talent.
On a serious note the fact that they seem to have revisted the BT trinkets is probably bad news for us. I would be somewhat shocked if our uptime has not been changed. I will test this first thing when I get home from work. | |||||||||||
| #3583 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | • Sebudai |
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| #3584 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Rob |
For a raid it's definitely a waste, but for world or unorganized BG PvP and solo grinding it can be extremely useful.
This is probably the purest enhancement PvE build post-2.3. Last edited by Rob : 10/11/07 at 6:08 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3585 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
The only time I have even remotely wished I had Healing Focus was on rare occasions on Archimonde where I've somehow gotten doomfire + airburst, there was no healer in range of me, and I wanted to keep myself topped off after my absorb pot wore off before running back in closer to Archimonde. Even then, though, I've never died to not having Healing Focus, and I certainly wouldn't waste 5 points on it.
Last edited by Xoya : 10/11/07 at 6:04 PM. Reason: grammar | |||||||||||
| #3586 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Atren |
From 2.3 PTR notes (taken them from WoR as forums ones are cut off)
First Weapon Skill change? - Expertise: We have added a new stat and associated rating called expertise and expertise rating. Expertise rating converts to expertise at the same rate that weapon skill rating formerly converted at. Each point of expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried by 0.25%. Weapon Skill: All items and abilities that granted weapon skill have been changed. In most cases, they were converted to expertise or expertise rating. Ranged attacks do not benefit from expertise, so ranged weapon skill has generally been replaced by critical strike bonuses or hit bonuses. In a few cases, talents have been changed to other effects to avoid granting players excessive amounts of expertise. And then shamans -- Shaman - Chain Lightning cast time reduced to 2.0 (from 2.5), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately. - Cure Poison and Cure Disease range increased to 40 yards. - Elemental Focus (Elemental) now reduces the mana cost of the next 2 damage spells by 40%. - Frost Shock is no longer subject to diminishing returns. - Grounding Totem: This totem is now destroyed upon redirecting any spell to itself. - Lightning Bolt cast time reduced to 2.5 (from 3.0 where applicable), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately. - Lightning Mastery (Elemental) cast time reduction reduced to .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds. - Lightning Overload (Elemental) now has a 4/8/12/16/20% chance to occur and the additional spell causes half damage and no additional threat. - Mana Spring Totem effect increased. - Mental Quickness (Enhancement) now also increases spell damage and healing equal to 10/20/30% of your attack power. - Two-Handed Axes and Two-Handed Maces are now trainable by all Shaman at the appropriate weapon masters. The Enhancement talent has been replaced by Shamanistic Focus. - Shamanistic Focus (New Enhancement Talent): After landing a melee critical strike, you enter a Focused state. The Focused state reduces the mana cost of your next Shock spell by 60%. - Shamanistic Rage (Enhancement) now also reduces all damage taken by 30% for the duration. - Spirit Weapons (Enhancement) threat reduction increased to 30% from 15%. - Rockbiter Weapon: For ranks 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 the increased damage resulting from this enchantment has been reduced slightly to match the intended numbers given in the tooltip. Ranks 1, 2, 3, and 9 are unchanged. - Water Shield: This spell no longer costs any mana to cast and its duration has been shortened. At the end of its duration, it now grants mana for any remaining globes. In addition, the mana granted per globe has been substantially increased. - Windfury Weapon: This enchantment can no longer be triggered while you are disarmed. | |||||||||||
| #3587 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
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| #3588 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Beroll |
- Expertise: We have added a new stat and associated rating called expertise and expertise rating. Expertise rating converts to expertise at the same rate that weapon skill rating formerly converted at. Each point of expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried by 0.25%.
- Weapon Skill: All items and abilities that granted weapon skill have been changed. In most cases, they were converted to expertise or expertise rating. What does this change mean to us Axe-wielding Orcs? How does +5 to Axes translate into Expertise Rating? | |||||||||||
| #3589 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Tornhoof |
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~1.25% less dodge and parry. So you should only notice the difference while attacking from front (parry) and if you hit any +hit cap (be it 9% for yellow or 28% for dual wield) But I guess we'll need to reevaluate the whole +Hitcap story again, since without weapon skill anymore we cannot really explain the 24%-28% values anymore. But i guess it is just replaced with higher dodge. Atleast we can assume now that any boss has 5.94% dodge and 5.94% parry (if applicable). Maybe they changed the whole miss thing anyway and this is actually a buff and not just some name change. Last edited by Tornhoof : 10/11/07 at 6:32 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3590 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Rob |
Unless we get something like 2 expertise rating per 1 skill rating, it sounds like a PvE nerf for Enhancement Shamans. Our only option was 100 Deaths and with a 1:1 conversion, we're now getting 1.5% fewer dodges instead of 3% more hits. (Parry reduction is only marginally useful on boss fights.)
I would bet that +5 to Axe weapon skill will be changed to something like +2% hit and +2% crit when wielding an axe, but I'm not really sure. It sounds like weapon-specific expertise is no longer something that Blizzard is interested in, but if they are, then maybe you'll get 5 expertise out of it (unknown # of rating). | |||||||||||
| #3591 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Tornhoof |
Yeh if they changed the 100 death belt to something different (like +crit/hit) we can easily assume that weapon expertise rating is primarily for tanks.
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| #3592 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Beroll |
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| #3593 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Razar |
From the 2.3 Patch notes:
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| #3594 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Slothrop |
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I checked out the most popular 0/45/16 builds on The Build Mine (What are the top 10 Shaman specs, and the top 10 builds of that spec?), and among those oriented for PvE, I see that although they follow the template above, the different versions of 0/45/16 trade off "Enhancing Totems" (for SoE), "Anticipation", "Weapons Totems" (for WF), and "Mental Quickness", since you can't put points in all four of these without giving up something somewhere else. And they also differ in how they get to Totemic Mastery and Nature's Guidance in the way they split the first five resto points between "Improved Healing Wave" vs. "Tidal Focus". I'd be interested in views on these tradeoffs in a 0/45/16 build. | |||||||||||
| #3595 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
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| #3596 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Rob |
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| #3597 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
Bah, I knew the change to the Ashtongue trinket was coming, but seriously it was quite nice having it, so I'm rather annoyed about it, especially considering due to my reroll from Resto to Enhancement came recently; so I never really got a chance at getting a DST or a Tsunami Talisman, so I'm left out a bit in the cold if the nerf is harsh enough =/.
Oh well, just have to play the DST lottery every week I guess! | |||||||||||
| #3598 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Rob |
Well, we can hope that the chance to proc on SS debuff application was removed but the chances to proc on each weapon hit still exist so we get a 75% proc chance if the SS isn't dodged or parried. That would yield something like 275*.75*.944 ~= 195 AEP when attacking from behind.
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| #3599 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | drats |
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Depending on your gear, it's possible to skip that last point and put it somewhere else. I just can't imagine a better return for 1 talent point once you've filled out the rest of the tree. ![]()
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| #3600 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Aegospotami |
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I know the argument is that slightly more misses are acceptable if the hits themselves do enough damage to compensate for the misses, but there's no data on what AP should be to compensate for those misses, or what range hit should be to at least be effective in a raid situation. I wish I could go and test this solo, but we all know I can't. So the only option is going into a raid untested and watch the performance while my miss rate could severely hurt the overal DPS of our melee group. Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place. | |||||||||||
| #3601 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Aegospotami |
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I know the argument is that slightly more misses are acceptable if the hits themselves do enough damage to compensate for the misses, but there's no data on what AP should be to compensate for those misses, or what range hit should be to at least be effective in a raid situation. I wish I could go and test this solo, but we all know I can't. So the only option is going into a raid untested and watch the performance while my miss rate could severely hurt the overal DPS of our melee group. Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place. | |||||||||||
| #3602 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
You know, you are acting awfully entitled.
Try reading the first post before you act like that. ![]()
Last edited by Rob : 10/11/07 at 9:37 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3603 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Shabadu |
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Missing doesn't hurt your group's dps, the only thing that affects them is mana (to drop totems) and critical strikes(for UR). | |||||||||||
| #3604 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
Yeah, Malan summarized it pretty well. Both hit talents. That's it. All the hit that comes with your gear is a bonus. As you might notice from my profile that means quite some. I don't even aim for any hit, but all our sets have quite a lot of it... kinda.
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| #3605 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Rapparee |
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It clearly, quite clearly tells me exactly how much hit rating I "need" on my gear. Since you are being bullheaded about this situation, I'll spell it out for you. An enchancement shaman "NEEDS ZERO +HIT" on their gear. That goes for every enhancement shaman who has the +hit talents maxxed out and is wearing reasonable gear. If by some miracle you are wearing gear that nets you thousands of AP but absolutely zero crit chance and no +hit, you should run the simulators mentioned in the first post and see whether +hit has a higher AEP than other stats. | |||||||||||
| #3606 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
A thought I've had recently.. I find that even with just 63 hit rating there are times when I get somewhat unlucky and shamanistic rage doesn't actually fill my mana bar. This is mainly a problem on fights where I need to be saving my potion cooldowns for other things (super health pots, absorb pots, etc.). Am I correct in assuming that this isn't considered in the valuation for hit rating?
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| #3607 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Igniter |
I guess the good times of a broken class trinket couldn't last, oh well. Hopefully they are unable to fix it patch after patch (lol vanish).
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| #3608 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Aeolian |
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| #3609 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | panny |
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The question you pose is irrelevant. You prioritize the highest DPS method, and do the other one only when you have excess mana. | |||||||||||
| #3610 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Aegospotami |
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But if the High King of Enhancement Shaman OP is going to go on about having so much math behind his theorycraft, then it's reasonable to expect even a slight indication of how much hit a shaman should have. Otherwise don't pretend to be the authority on all things Enhancement, because most of us are just trying to optimize our toons amid a flood of information scattered across dozens of sites. (For instance, WoWWiki puts the *minimum* Hit Rating for pre-Kara at 125.) You all know this is true -- go to the official forums and there will be 20 different answers. | |||||||||||
| #3611 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | vorda |
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Do a search in this topic if you want the math behind it. I kindly suggest you think twice about your next post, you'r walking a very thin line at the moment. The line of 'yet another official forums visitor who found a link to this topic there'. And those people dont last long here. | |||||||||||
| #3612 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | seminarca |
Wow, there's no reason to be this obtuse.
What everyone here is trying to tell you is that arbitrarily declaring "minimum" hit rating is absolutely useless. Trust in the AEP. Run your stats through a sim. Evaluate all your gear options using the AEP you get from the sim. Pick the best options. From those best options you've just picked, add up all the hit rating on them. That number you get? THAT is the minimum hit rating you should be aiming for. And wow lookie here, you just reached it. If your gear then deviates substantially due to upgrades, run the sim again. | |||||||||||
| #3613 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Igniter |
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| #3614 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
So yeah now that we're done with the other guy, anyone care to comment on my observation about hit rating having an undocumented contribution to DPS in the form of added mana through Shamanistic Rage?
(I say undocumented because I'm pretty certain it's not considered in the current ratings we use) | |||||||||||
| #3615 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n.../newloots9.jpg
Your shock spells have a chance to grant 110 attack power for 10 seconds. zzzzzzzzz | |||||||||||
| #3616 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | smokey |
nothing
Last edited by smokey : 10/12/07 at 1:42 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3617 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
That's ... pretty lame. :/ Shocks are cast once every 6 seconds, MAX, for an enhancement shaman. Compare this to the 100 haste rating elemental shamans get when they lightning bolt (which they're doing once every 2.2 seconds or so). I guess we'll have to wait and see what the proc rate is, but still. -_-
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| #3618 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Boratz |
@ Aegospotami
The reason people are getting frustrated with your question and persistence, is because it demonstrates an apparent lack of understanding as to what we all read/talk about here. There is no single number to aim for because the 9% from our talents covers you well enough. If you get some on gear, great. If you don't, no need to cry. The point is, you should be running some of the Simulators on the first page and inputting your current stats. Those sims (particularly Yo's sim) will give you an idea of what AEP values you need to be aiming for, and thus in terms of immediately upgrading your gear what items you should be seeking to acquire. No one has an exact number because there isn't one. Its different for every shaman in every instance. The current values of your gear in terms of crit/hit/AP and so on will always mean that my requirements gear wise to increase my overall dps will almost, 99/100 times, be different to yours. They may result in us taking the same piece of gear, but at the end of the day my figures will likely differ from yours in terms of desired AEP values. I hope this clarifys. | |||||||||||
| #3619 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Kombinat |
Here's a question for you all, and I hope like crazy that nobody in my guild ever finds out about my asking it.
I'm coming in the top 3-5 on our Gruul runs, and often. I'm beating mages and warlocks. I'm threat capped on most attempts, and I just don't shock on Gruul, too busy keeping totems up and timing my shamanistic rages, plus it gives me a bit of headroom on threat. I've gotten some upgrades recently, but nothing to crow about. In my gear, should this be happening? Shouldn't my fellow raiders be beating the ever loving piss out of me? Even with totem twisting, I'm out dpsing the rogues and warriors in my group. Any input appreciated, regarding whether or not this should be occurring. | |||||||||||
| #3620 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | panny |
Has anyone looked at the new Badge of Justice loot? Except for the gloves (better than T5 gloves, I think), most of the leather seems much better than the mail due to the addition of sockets (also, I'm not sure how to rate armour penetration yet).
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| #3621 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | BoinKlasik |
edit: nevermind found it on mmo-champion, wasn't showing on my wow forums page.
edit2: if it really only has a 50% chance to proc, its only a passive 137.5 ap which puts it down below the tsunami talisman I guess I don't care about exalted with the ashtongue anymore.Last edited by BoinKlasik : 10/12/07 at 3:26 AM. Reason: im an idiot. | |||||||||||
| #3622 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Disquette |
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It could be that you're a phenom, and are doing a lot more damage than most enhance shaman. It could be that your gear really is that much better than theirs. It could be that they are horrible players. It's just very hard to say without knowing the specifics. The easiest initial question to answer - what's your overall dps for the encounter. You know that you're in the top 3-5, so that means someone's running damage meters, so the info should be readily available. | |||||||||||
| #3623 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Sebudai |
Getting some inconsistent results from Yo's simulator lately. I just ran five 10,000 hour simulations and these were the results:
Stat/AEP Value Crit Rating - 2.35, 2.02, 1.86, 2.01, 2.31 Hit Rating - 1.92, 1.87, 1.68, 2.29, 1.92 Haste Rating - 2.33, 1.96, 2.03, 1.96, 1.95 Armor Penetration - 0.38, 0.39, 0.39, 0.38, 0.38 Agility - 2.28, 1.97, 1.81, 1.96, 2.24 Those values vary quite a bit. Am I doin' it wrong? ![]() | |||||||||||
| #3624 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Sebudai |
Ran the simulator again, this time without the "30% ap to spell damage" option turned on, and the results were much more consistent:
Stat/AEP Value Crit Rating - 2.01, 2.05, 2.06, 1.99, 2.09 Hit Rating - 1.95, 1.91, 1.98, 1.96, 1.97 Haste Rating - 1.95, 1.96, 1.99, 1.96, 2.03 Armor Penetration - 0.39, 0.39, 0.40, 0.39, 0.39 Agility - 1.96, 2.0, 2.0, 1.94, 2.03 So is checking the "30% ap to spell damage option on causing problems? Is this a known issue with the simulator? Is this an issue at all or is it working correctly? | |||||||||||
| #3625 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Skiace |
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Hell, in that WWS there's two other enhance shaman who come in below me (#6 & 10 in dps). Both of these shaman have been in the guild longer than me, have several pieces of arena gear, and have collected much more loot from Kara. One of them has the guild's only Dragonspine Trophy. But i still beat them because I've been reading this thread since it started and continually applying the knowledge here in game to make gear choices. I wear Midnight Legguards while one of them wears the t4 kilt for the 4-piece set bonus, and the other is waiting to replace his Midnight Legguards with Rip-Flayers. You are beating these people because they are not getting the most out of their class, be it poor gearing, poor play , or both. Last edited by Skiace : 10/12/07 at 5:21 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3651 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Mextro |
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| #3652 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | • Nite_Moogle |
It is, but if that thing is up for more than 15 seconds per minute when you lay on full shock spam I'll be, well, shocked. I'm guessing 1 PPM, which makes it pretty much terrible for anyone that does totem twisting.
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| #3653 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | BoinKlasik |
although that 160 number you just quoted makes me wonder if the 40% effect to WF attacks from talents affects that 80 ap per weapon number.
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reverberation 60/10*110/10) I think that is the correct math. I think in both of those cases the new relic would be clearly superior since it does not appear from the wowhead link to be on a PPM (ppm effects don't have proc chances. sign me up for some of that. | |||||||||||
| #3654 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Malan |
If and only if you are using shocks on every cooldown. If you are twisting or holding off shocks, less benefit.
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| #3655 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | berg |
Wow that arena totem is amazingly bad. The only use I can think of for any of them is that they should provide junk buffs to fend off purge spam.
I am also truly disappointed in the new badge rewards. They stated clearly that the intent of the new rewards was to fill itemization holes for offspecs. Looking at those rewards every piece we would truly crave is plate and all of the mail is hunter/resto/elemental loot. I feel bad for the guys in smaller guilds that were banking on these to gear up. | |||||||||||
| #3656 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | • Nite_Moogle |
There's not much melee mail, but there are at least a few good pieces (they do have int on them, sadly) and there's a ton of feral loot to steal.
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| #3657 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Malan |
The feral items though have increased armor, so even those are reduced in item points available for normal stats.
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| #3658 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Galeyra |
Orc Racial is just 1% crit with axes and twohanded axes, but your right about the belt.
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| #3659 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | BoinKlasik |
Yes, good point, a disclaimer would have to be made that this is under best case (for the shaman's personal dps) circumstances. Though, with the changes to shock mana costs (through the crit talent) and my change in guilds depriving me of a dedicated paladin for JoW I have moved back to doing full time shock rotations. But the math still holds true if the shaman is just shocking.
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| #3660 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Malan | ||||||||||||
| #3661 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | berg |
I am probably a little more annoyed than I should be but the itemization is really starting to grind on me.
It is easy to think 'There should not be melee mail cause only one person would use it.' In reality this is simply unfair to us and I think we should be making more of an issue out of it. There is tons of amazing loot for us out there, but the majority of it plate. I feel that atleast half of those drops should be mail. Good gear designed for us would NOT be exclusive to us. It could be shared amongst Enhance shaman, Ret pallies and Arms/Fury warriors. Instead of all of those classes sharing loot that is perfect for them, they get free armor that they do not use and we get nothing. Last edited by berg : 10/12/07 at 12:20 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3662 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | david0925 |
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As a Druid main, I can tell you that there are no proper feral itemization in T6 content, with the exception of the set pieces. The fix they did was changing our talent from 20% strength in cat form, to 10% AP in cat form. While there are still a lot of whiners out there about lack of items optimzed to ferals, it is much better that, with this design, Druids can comfortably share drops with Rogues without gimping themselves. Similarly, it would be nice if mp5 is somehow incorporated into the talents (for example, 100% of mp5 is converted to crit rating. Don't argue with how good/bad this actually is please, being just an example), instead of trying to cater to the needs of current enhancement shaman and further diluting the loot table. Also in this patch, Retdin's mechanics changed so they can easily share warrior plates. I would hope they change moonkin's armor benefits to maybe 200%, but give them the ability to wear mail, so that they can share drops with elemental shaman. | |||||||||||
| #3663 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | berg |
I am not asking for gear to say "Classes:Shaman" on it.
My point is that fury/ret could use the same gear optimally if it were mail. They dont need that AC, it is just icing to them. They would never elect to tank in that gear over real tanking items. They do not need to dilute anything. Our dream itemization already exists, we just cannot wear it. | |||||||||||
| #3664 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Hamilburg |
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If I adopt your method of tabulating things in terms of AP-swing/minute units I can arrive at your figure of 1920 for Astral Winds. Assuming a 33% uptime for the shock totem I would come out with: 4 Windfury procs - 8 swings at 110 AP each. 880 AP Presume 50% flurry uptime, and dual 2.6 speed weapons, is 8.7 swings with both offhand and mainhand. Accounting for the offhand penalty - 13.05 swings, or 1435.5 AP. 2 Stormstrikes in that 20 second uptime, for an additional 3 swings (counting the offhand as .5 again). 330 AP. --------- Total AP contribution 2645 AP-swing/minute. Not taken into account - Improved Windfury boosting the AP contribution of Windfury attacks higher - Different miss chances for autoattack vs stormstrike/windfury - Glancing blows And for not working with totem twisting - A pure shocker can get off 10 shocks per minute. A totem twister can get off... what... 80% of that (37.5% of time taken by twisting, presuming an 8 second cycle. 15% of time taken by Stormstrike. Shocking every cooldown would be 25% which would still be allowed). At 80% of optimal uptime (caused by cooldowns landing on top of each other and Earthshock being low priority on the totempole), the new totem still would seem competitive if you presume that 30% uptime. If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook. | |||||||||||
| #3665 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
I could test all the questions asked on the previous page and even check out the new Totem's uptime... but yeah, Character Copy is down. -.-
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| #3666 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Nemaa | ||||||||||||
| #3667 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ChaguraED |
Affect of Orc Racial change on Weapon Choice
With the new Changes to the Orc Axe Racial, will the Black Planar Edge, be less desirable then the Dragonmaw? 3% +Hit was a significant stat, but will 1% Crit not be significant enough to tip the scales in it's favor?
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| #3668 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | SentinelBorg |
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| #3669 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Peterbilt |
Question on Weapons
My apologies for interrupting the patch info discussion, and I apologize in advance if this question has been answered previously. I've scoured all 140+ pages of the thread, but my head's still spinning from the info. ; )
It's been stated that Dragonstrike is one of the 'best' MH weapons for enhancement. It's also been stated that the Merciless Gladiator <whatever> is the best OH. I'm currently wielding Dragonmaw and Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, and before I invest in Nether Vortexes for the upgrade, I need some advice. My thoughts; Dragonstrike is .10 slower than the Merciless Gladiator OH, thus the OH is receiving the first chance for WF procs after the hidden CD. My guild is in Black Temple, so I have access to Rising Tide. As a matter of fact, no one else wants it, so it's mine when it drops. Would it be more advisable to go for Rising Tide as MH, and Merciless Gladiator in OH? The speeds would mean the MH would catch most of my WF procs after CD. Or does Dragonstrike, and the haste, have an inherent AEP value I'm not seeing that makes it more DPS even with the speed offset? Simply put, Dragonstrike or Rising Tide? (Syphon isn't an option right now, since there's a long line of rogues in front of me waiting for it. = / ) | |||||||||||
| #3670 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Malan |
Yo's Simulator would be your best answer, figure out the stat difference for each option and then plug them into the sim on a long time span, run each scenario several times, then compare the results.
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| #3671 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | BoinKlasik |
@Peterbilt you prolly want to just spend some time with Yo!'s simulator before people start yelling at you
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| #3672 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Peterbilt |
lol ok, I will.
I get shaky and nauseous when people yell at me. = ( BBL after trying Yo's! | |||||||||||
| #3673 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
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This is stuff I'd really like to test myself rather than read speculation or 2nd hand info from terrible WoW forums, but character copy is so amazing. | |||||||||||
| #3674 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Malan |
If anyone out there knows how to write firefox plugins, I would *love* an AEP calculator that would store my personal AEP values, and then allow me to input an item link from wowhead or something, and calculate the AEP value for me.
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| #3675 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Hamilburg |
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80% shocks, 100% windfury uptime, 65% GoA/TA uptime. Then it becomes a measure of 20% GoA uptime vs the shocks and benefit possible benefit from the new totem. Certainly the new totem is aimed at shocking, it'd be silly to suggest otherwise. | |||||||||||
| #3776 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Neithan |
Stigmata, droprate of Vortexes is really luck based these times. Sometimes we get 5 per whole clear of TK (excepting KT as these are guaranteed), sometimes we get 10.
Regarding melee haste, they should revert it back and I hope they will do it. Why there should be so much of haste on all Badge&ZA gear? (or am I too optimistic?) | |||||||||||
| #3777 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Stigmata |
5 sounds about the same as when last I entered, but as Ralene said, they are only just starting VR, so they would do alot less trash.
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| #3778 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
Last time we did TK we got 3 >.> (including 2 from Kael!).
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| #3779 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | everwatch |
Are you windowing in and out of WoW, or another graphics intensive program? I have no idea why, but if you do that Yo's sim craps out and does exactly what you just said. It can go all blank, freeze up the entire window, or cause the field area to take on a screen shot of whatever was there on the screen before. When I run his sim I either go afk, read, or surf the net until it finishes. I can't go into WoW while it's running.
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| #3780 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Tornhoof |
Yo's sim is not multithreaded, e.g. ui does not react while running the calculations.
If you're already running some highly cpu intensive program like wow (wow behaves badly with cpu usage) the sim might take ages to react etc. | |||||||||||
| #3781 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] / Weapon Expertise Adjustment discussion follows:
Before, the belt was granting 6 weapon skill, which translated into a bit over 3% white hit. Now, it is granting 6 expertise, which translates into 1.5% dodge reduction and 1.5% parry reduction. In a raid environment, the parry reduction will be largely useless as we will be attacking from behind. However, in the event that you are forced to attack from the front (RSTS ability causes boss to turn, tank repositioning, void-zone type AoE on floor, etc.) parry reduction should be quite nice. Increased damage output and you will lessen the possibility of anyone dying to a hasted swing timer resulting from a parry. Dodge reduction will be useless against bosses that are constantly casting (e.g. Shade of Aran, High Astromancer Solarian) because mobs cannot dodge while casting, but fairly useful against mobs that do not cast or only cast instant spells. Mobs can dodge attacks from behind and weapon expertise is now a reasonable way to reduce these dodges. If weapon expertise is found to affect yellow damage as well as white damage, and if it adds to the chance to "Hit" rather than merely raising the hit cap, it should still be a good use of item budget for enhancement shamans. Additionally, items such as [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] with dagger rating now have merely expertise, so some gain can be had there. As an example, let's assume that expertise works how we think it does (affects both white and yellow attacks; converts dodges and parries to hits). The Belt of One-Hundred Deaths used to give me 3% white hit rating (affecting ~50% of my damage); now it will give me 1.5% increased white damage and 1.5% increased WF and SS damage (affecting ~90% of my damage). It's probably an oversimplification, but it looks like a minor nerf: before I would get at most a 1.5% damage increase from the weapon skill on the belt, now I get at most a 1.35% damage increase from the expertise on the belt. (I am intentionally ignoring the effects of critical strikes in this analysis.) I also happen to wear Shoulderpads of the Stranger, so I will have 8 expertise, resulting in a 2% dodge reduction. Theoretically, the net effect of this may be a buff (2% * 90% of damage = 1.8% damage increase, up from 1.5% in 2.2.) We still don't know three things:
TL;DR Summary:
Last edited by Rob : 10/13/07 at 6:55 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3782 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Stigmata |
It gripes me that Rogues and Warriors get "free" Weapon skill and I assume free expertise when the patch goes live. It makes it annoying to be required to have to use items such as belt of one hundred deaths or the gloves from alar or even the shoulders.
This reminds me of the mail gloves every dps warrior used to wear back in Naxx, because of the glancing thing even though they were not intended to be used in such a manor. I realise all classes can't have the same talents, but it again is something that as a melee class we should have access to without having to get a specific item, especially since all the items are now in shit instances that most end game guilds dont even frequent. My guild could not go into TK/SSC now purely because no one wants to waste 3+ hours on getting 15 void crystals and hoping the odd random piece that it useful will drop. Last edited by Stigmata : 10/13/07 at 7:20 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3783 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
Rogues for sure are getting their +10 weapon skill converted directly to +10 expertise. I'm not sure on the Warrior situation as I think the talents were moved around. I believe that the expertise from talents is going to be in the Prot tree, which might mean that DPS warriors won't pick that talent.
Weapon Expertise would be a great replacement for the "Toughness" talent, or possibly the "Improved Weapon Totems" talent, which is not wholly useless but definitely underpowered compared to most talents that deep in the tree. Overall, though, this seems like an itemization issue rather than a talents issue. Maybe they could replace our T6 MP5 with expertise! ![]() | |||||||||||
| #3784 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #3785 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
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I've been submitting feedback for t6 trying to explain why mp/5 is not good, I doubt it'll do anything but I would applaud anyone else who does the same. | |||||||||||
| #3786 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Difforgazm |
Again, not sure if this is a silly question, but it was stated that until 100 Deaths was tested with its new stats, that Boneweave Girdle - Items - World of Warcraft was the second best belt.
How would Don Alejandro's Money Belt - Items - World of Warcraft compare to this? with 2 sockets, it seems like the obvious choice with BT or JC only gems. Again, sorry if this has already been asked, but i searched and couldnt find it. | |||||||||||
| #3787 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Nemaa |
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| #3788 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Nemaa |
Difforgazm: please read "VIII.2 Itemization – Using Stat Weights" of the first post. There lies your answer about the two belts, after using a calculator.
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| #3789 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
I made some tickets about the stats on t6, whatever good it will do.
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| #3790 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob | ||||||||||||
| #3791 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
Because this patch is making a lot of changes to the shaman talents, now would probably be an excellent time for every shaman that reads this thread to make feedback on the PTR.
As Rob suggested above, if several hundred of us (or more? who knows how many are reading this thread) gave feedback stating that Toughness or Anticipation should be changed to Weapon Expertise, maybe we'd have a shot of getting it. | |||||||||||
| #3792 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Vim |
With the new enchant in ZA, I wanted to compare it to Mongoose, but need someone to test my math. From what Wowhead shows, it has the same duration (15 sec) with no apparent ppm as well. Assuming 1 AGI = 2 AEP, Haste = 1.48, and Armor Pen. = .25 then Mongoose = 240 AEP from agility and 46.65 AEP from Haste (2% haste = 31.52 rating) = 286.65 AEP. Exectioner is 840 armor penetration = 210 AEP. Am I correct in this math? I understand that my personal AEP will change with my gear, and Armor Penetration may become more valuable as my gear changes.
On another note, AEP has helped me a lot while comparing armor, but I was wondering if there was a formulae used when comparing weapons. Since there is more to a weapon than the stats and gem slot, is there a way to assign a value to the difference in DPS? Assigning a value of 14 AP = 1 DPS doesnt seem correct to me as it is a huge AEP difference between weapons, and seems inflated in comparison to the AEP difference in pieces of armor. Id rather run it through a simulator, but my system is a bit dodgy atm, and Yo! isnt working because of that. Last edited by Vim : 10/14/07 at 3:10 AM. Reason: spelling | |||||||||||
| #3793 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Atren |
Speaking of badge gear, has any shaman checked if there is any shaman only gear for sale? As i think druid was the one who recorded first sightings and therefor there was a druid only piece for sale.
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| #3794 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | darkInertia |
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| #3795 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Atren |
Do not think so, i see parry when i am parried which certainly seems to be a lot higher than 5%.
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| #3796 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | darkInertia | ||||||||||||
| #3797 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Kirion |
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Mobs cant parry from behind. If it would so, tanks instagibs would occur too often. Many boss mobs have around 10% parry, much higher than usual mobs. | |||||||||||
| #3798 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Kirion |
double post, delete please
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| #3799 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Atren | ||||||||||||
| #3800 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Bragor |
Theres a new trinket dropping in ZA that might be the 2nd best trinket in game atm.
[Berserker's Call] Doing the Math : 90 AEP + (360*20/120) = 90 + 60 = 150 AEP Making it the 2nd best trinket after the DST. Something not right here. | |||||||||||
| #3801 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Stigmata |
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| #3802 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Atren |
Well, that trinket is 150 AEP always as it only gives AP which is base of AEP values. Other trinkets vary depending on the usefulness of the stats they have (Hit, Crit and etc). Values on first post are based on fixed values which will not be right for you. Get your personalised values and then use formulas in first post to see if it still is 2nd best trinket in the game atm for you.
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| #3803 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Wichtel |
Well i love the trinket. You can argue that it should not be better than the BT/Hyjal Trinkets. But I like active trinkets a lot and i am happy that there is a better than Bloodlust Brooch. I can use them when i activate SR/Bloodlust/Drums/Haste Potions or if i we need to get something down fast. It gives me another way to influence my performance and i think it is great to have a very good active trinket.
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| #3804 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Stigmata | ||||||||||||
| #3805 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Atren |
Actually you can argue that in order to keep interest in less than last instance it is nice incentive to have few pieces of eq in earlier one superior than in currently best one. Also is this out of order powerlist only for shamans or also for rogues/warriors? Unfortunaly rogues and dps warriors are primary target and any anomalies that only apply to us are of lesser importance imo. That last statement is of course my own personal view.
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| #3806 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Neithan |
Probably stupid question but:
Currently using DST+Dragonstrike. Macroed SR+Bloodlust trinket. When using SR macro should I use Haste pots AND Drums of Battle or just SR+Drums and after one minute Haste pots to keep some kind of rotation. Reading it after myself it seems like a total nonsense ;( | |||||||||||
| #3807 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Stopokingme |
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| #3808 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
When discussing AEP values, its a worthless discussion if we're all going to compare things based off individualized AEP. It would be better if we used the generalized form, otherwise its like we're discussing physics but we each have a unique value for the acceleration due to gravity.
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| #3809 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | tzenes |
has anyone looked at the proc rate for executioner yet?
Would it be worth getting over mongoose? Would it be worth getting over crusader? Obviously the more armor pen you have, the higher your aep is for armor pen, so the most useful information would be: what is the average armor pen given by executioner? | |||||||||||
| #3810 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
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| #3811 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Atren |
Malan, normally i would agree except in this case all that new trinket gives is AP. Since AP is always 1 as its basis of all other values, some sort of comparison can be made especially to show that it is not necessarily 2nd best trinket.
Tzenes, there is thread in here concerning that somewhere in this site. | |||||||||||
| #3812 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
My comment was regarding someone else saying that Madness of the Betrayer had a different value for them, not regarding the AP trinket.
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| #3813 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
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* The exception being when client and server disagree on the position of the player, which is believed to be the cause of the rare parried Backstab and the like. | |||||||||||
| #3814 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Stopokingme |
That comment I posted was mostly in response to people thinking it would indeed stay the second best trinket in game, I merely posted that to show it is not that black and white.
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| #3815 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Aurvandil |
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lets take 10 second interval, best case scenario with 1.5 weapon speed during that 10 seconds best case scenario you white hit 10/1.5 = 6 hits you stormstrike at the start and at the end hitting with both weapons = 4 hits you double proc windfury every time the 3 second cooldown is up = 6 hits with stonebreaker you are gaining 55 ap for 16 hits with astral winds you are gaining 80 ap for 6 hits I think its pretty obvious which one I'd take. | |||||||||||
| #3816 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
Those 6 WF hits are multiplied by 140% if you are correctly specced, though (Elemental Weapons). That may not change the end result of your analysis, but it's important to take everything into consideration.
I also think it's logically wrong to include the SS twice. If you're looking at a 10 second cycle it should only include one Stormstrike. Realistically, let's suppose everyone is using 2.6 speed weapons, with 100% flurry uptime for a swing speed of 2.0. Then you get 5 white swings in every 10 second period. The best-case scenario for this setup is also one WF proc every 4 seconds. So in a 40 second period there would be 10 WF procs (let's call them all MH, for the sake of argument), 4 SS, 20 MH white swings and 20 OH white swings. We'll say that you have a 15% miss rate on white swings, and that 20% of white swings glance doing 30% less damage, further reducing white damage by an additional 6%. 10*80*1.4*2 = 2240 max AP contribution from Astral Winds in 40 sec period. 10*55*1.4*2+4*55*1.5(SS)+20*55*0.79*1.5(MH+OH)=1540+330+1303.5=3173.5 max AP contribution from Stonebreaker in same 40 sec period. Ignored: The effect of dodges, parries, blocks, and crits. These should apply consistently to both white and yellow damage. If Stonebreaker uptime is lower than 50%, reduce the "55" in the second set of equations to 110*uptime. Overall, I'm going to have to agree with your conclusion that Stonebreaker totem is superior if you shock enough to keep the buff up 50% of the time, but if you only shock enough to keep the buff up 35% of the time or less, Astral Winds is superior. Last edited by Rob : 10/14/07 at 7:44 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3817 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
Yah I just haven't updated that yet.
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| #3818 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | BoinKlasik |
edit: he'd already done that, I need to learn to re-read stuff.
Last edited by BoinKlasik : 10/14/07 at 8:06 PM. Reason: stupidity | |||||||||||
| #3819 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Rapparee |
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Teron is a jerk, he turns around to select a target on whom to place shadow of doom. When he does that, he parries the living daylights out of me, but at least he didn't instantly slaughter our tank. So while you are fundamentally correct that bosses can not parry from behind, those jerks tend to spin in place while casting one-off spells. | |||||||||||
| #3820 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Chr |
As far as I'm aware, mobs that appear to parry when you are behind them come from mobs that cast abilities on players, even for the most fractional parts of seconds. Things like Void Reaver orbs, Morogrim's water tombs etc. Question is, why can't this be corrected by having the mobs behave similar to Nef's calls, where no targets are needed.
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| #3821 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
Yeah, RSTS (random secondary target selection) abilities can indeed cause parries and sometimes with certain abilities, especially charges, the boss doesn't switch back immediately and the swing timer lines up so that you'll get hit and die, like Al'ar's charge used to. I assume that these abilities are easier to script than things like Nef's class calls, which is why they're used.
You can also parry a boss from behind with the server/client disagreement exception I described above. | |||||||||||
| #3822 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Nubittos |
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my settings are 1600 AP, 15% hit, 28% crit, 2.6 speed MH with WF, and 1.4 speed OH with FT... It says 60ish dps with FT, but does that do it justice ? :s it hits if I recall right now for about 80 damage or so, and with the increased dmg/heal in patch 2.3 we get that damage increased by a fair amount compared to what it already does... with these stats correct me if im wrong again... (say 1600 AP meaning 1600/3/10 = 53,33 damage/hit. meaning my FT should hit for around 130 damage/hit. Given that I use the gladiators dagger with 1.4 speed in the offhand I should reach nearly 1 hit/second with flurry. (and even faster with BL/trinkets, u name it...) say we have mongoose on both wpns that will also boost weaponspeeds considerably! Roughly we should get say for instance 150 dps out of this FT, but if u check it out on the addon it says 60 dps with my settings :s 60 dps with 1.4 speed wpn... how is that possible with 130 damage hits and a wpn that on average strikes atleast once/second... som one explain, or tell me its wrong ![]() ps. if I make the OH weaponspeed faster it decreases my DPS, which is ofc rediculous... something MUST be wrong :s Last edited by Nubittos : 10/15/07 at 7:03 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3823 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
First, did you turn on the AP->Spellpower flag under Procs & Stuff? In the default setting, the sim is using 2.2 mechanics.
Second, Yo's acknowledged that the AP->Spellpower conversion code in the sim is currently somewhat buggy, but he's on vacation for a bit and doesn't plan to update the sim until Nov 1. | |||||||||||
| #3824 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Nubittos |
yeah I did add it
![]() and as I just edited the post above, I made the OH weapon faster and the damage from FT decreased that cant be right ? ![]() EDIT: sry it was an overall decrease in DPS not the FT, but its weird that I change the speed frmo 2.6 to 1.4 and the change in FT damage is like 10% :S | |||||||||||
| #3825 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Mulgero |
What was the average AEP value for RED meta gem using OP AEP values for stats? I remember it been mentioned in some post but couldn't find it anymore.
+12 agi = 24AEP, 3%crit damage ? *edited* read OP again.. depending of group setup my crit% is between 35-45% in raids so propably average increase would be around 1.5% I guess. I suppose that would translate roughly being ~10dps? whatever that would be in AEP value... 1dps was abot 14AP so 140AEP? Feels like too high value. Thanks for advance. Last edited by Mulgero : 10/15/07 at 8:20 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3826 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Razputin |
Remember theres side effects of having a fast OH, such as eating the flurry of ur MH, which in turn impacts ur wf procs. Maybe thats whats affecting ur results.
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| #3827 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
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Nevertheless, even supposing that those things increase our AP->DPS conversion by a factor of 4, you're still getting 12 agility and 35 AP which is more than any other meta can offer. Last edited by Rob : 10/15/07 at 9:17 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3828 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Nubittos |
sry for being this blunt Razputin
but ill say as snorkle did on the forum about this and I Quote:"NO NO NO NO NO" :P anyways fast weapon eating flurry is the flurry mechanic misunderstood really... a faster weapon will also apply a new flurry so fast of slow weapons your flurry uptime (if you dont count up until first crit of a session) will be the same.. Yes the flurry gets eaten faster you are right, but you are also hitting faster so as said you will also get flurry proc more often ![]() flurry is depending on you critting, not your weaponspeeds.. if flurry was attackspeed for 3 seconds things would be different, but its 3 swings, so speed won't matter... tell me if I don't make sense, however, this should be understandable. ![]() Nubittos | |||||||||||
| #3829 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Mulgero |
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T4 2p set bonus is decent for full melee groups compared to upgrade I would get replacing all my T4 pieces with ZA+heroic pieces... | |||||||||||
| #3830 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Disquette |
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From my post in the Blizzard forums: =================================== Think of the following example: You are dual wielding a 5.0 speed weapons (I know, that's ridiculous, but it helps illustrate the point) How many times in 10 seconds can you proc a flurry state? 2 - stormstrike 2 - windfury (say we only get one windfury in this 10 second scenario) 4 - white hits. So, we have 8 attacks that can proc flurry. How many can use up flurry charges? 4. So, we have 2 flurry-proc'ing attacks for every flurry consuming attack. You will be close to perma flurried in this case. Now, assume you are using 1.0 speed weapons. Say we get two windfuries instead of one (just to make it clear that even with more flurry-generating attacks your flurry % can go down). How many times in 10 seconds can you proc a flurry state? 2 - stormstrike 4 - windfury 20 - white hits. So, we have 26 attacks that can proc flurry. How many can use up flurry charges? 20. So, we have 1.3 flurry-proc'ing attacks for every flurry consuming attack. This is a much worse production to consumption ratio than with the slower weapons. Simply put, with faster weapons, your flurry uptime will decrease because the bonus flurry-attacks of SS and WF are a smaller percentage of the number of flurry-proc-capable moves. ================================= Hope that helps. | |||||||||||
| #3831 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
OP updated with Rob's analysis of Weapon Expertise and Panny's analysis of the Stonebreaker's Totem.
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| #3832 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Shakkha |
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EDIT: nm i should learn to read i didn't saw the little addendum, ignore me! ![]() | |||||||||||
| #3833 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
Oh yah I did that too.
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| #3834 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | berg |
I can verify the results on the stonebreaker totem. My test was slightly different since I had 6 second shocks. However I can say for certain that never once did the buff get reapplied. So there is definitely a cooldown in the range of 10-12 seconds.
After 20 minutes in blasted lands my uptime was in the low 50's %wise which is pretty nice. Other observations. Our mana burden has dropped dramatically. Spamming SS and shocks with water shield and mana totem running pretty much meant my mana never dropped. Cheap shocks, improved mana spring and water shield (amazing water shield) was more than enough. I did not even use Shamanistic rage. If you are not getting hit water shield is really nice but not amazing. If you are grinding mobs though it is truly amazing. Also for newer shaman or ones that forget the old resto days it is important to realize that your totem strength gets determined when it drops. Our AP fluctuates wildly at times but if possible you want to wait, at the very least, until you have strength totem, battle shout and unleashed rage up prior to dropping searing and healing stream. It makes a very big difference. | |||||||||||
| #3835 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | SentinelBorg |
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| #3836 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Oteb |
Theories aside. Copy pasting what I have just posted in euro forums:
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| #3837 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Disquette |
Is there already a very good quality lightweight watershield mod? If not, I"ll build one into DisqoDice.
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| #3838 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan | ||||||||||||
| #3839 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Oteb |
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Besides I miss like 14% resist rate but I also miss 15% improved scorch. There are just tons of other things that differ one on one vs level 55 to raid situation. Unfortunetly alone I cant test it any better. | |||||||||||
| #3840 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
I would actually say that your results are to be expected actually, not surprising at all. Because of Dodge and Parry you're taking an overall physical DPS loss over your test, whereas FT will have almost no resists whatsoever.
We really need to stop using Blasted Lands mobs for testing, the Halaa ones would be a better estimate, although I realize the inherent difficulties in using them. | |||||||||||
| #3841 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Atren |
Another worthwhile note is that while your OH damage will scale with WF, but your FT will not change at all. In other words with WF both weapon dps and WF dps will improve as weapon dps improves, but with FT only weapon dps will improve.
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| #3842 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
I found that on trash in ZA on PTR I was frequently topping 1100 DPS with Flametongue in offhand with a Ced's Carver and Windfury on mainhand with a Syphon. Amazed, I tried it out at the next boss fight, and got less than stellar results, barely topping 800 DPS. For comparison I was doing 850-900 DPS in the same situation with my normal WF setup. Group buffs were my totems + anything a prot paladin gives (nothing?) + a prot warrior who was most likely using commanding shout. I will try to get more testing in ZA with Flametongue this coming weekend when we run it some more. I wish I had a higher DPS offhand weapon to use, but the Ced's Carver just randomly dropped in ZA while we were running it and I long ago disenchanted my Malchazeen and Emerald Ripper.
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| #3843 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
Flametongue performs significantly better against +1 and +2 targets than +3. The resist rate skyrockets from 6% against a +2 to 17% against a +3, which is the main reason that Flametongue is so horrible in the context of raiding. People see comparable numbers from WF to FT on trash or while grinding and assume that these results will carry over to boss fights, and this is absolutely not the case.
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| #3844 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
Perhaps that's something to explore then - would it better to have a kit of weapons, fast OH for trash and slow OH for bosses?
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| #3845 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Kirion |
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| #3846 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
Yah that bugs me too. It falls in the Enhancement talent tree, it should probably be based around stats that we use.
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| #3847 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Yuma |
Removed this comment, as it was based on a misread of a Wowhead post.
Last edited by Yuma : 10/15/07 at 1:02 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3848 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
Only Seal of Command (and Blood I guess, but it blows so who cares) works this way; Seal of Righteousness is a normal spell hit check. Avenger's Shield also uses melee mechanics, but Paladins get hosed over just as badly as Shamans do in this respect.
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| #3849 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Stigmata |
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| #3850 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Shakkha | ||||||||||||
| #3876 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ChaguraED |
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I am Fairly sure you can swap totems in combat, as many resto shaman talk about swapping their healing totems based on the type of heal they're casting (chain heal vs healing wave) If this is correct then that would certainly be a good macro to run | |||||||||||
| #3877 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Tambard |
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| #3878 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | PhyerFly |
Just wanted to drop by and add that Enhancement Shaman will have two new slow off-hand weapons options in 2.3 that are worth noticing. The following weapons were originally main-hand only and will be changed to one-hand when the patch hits.
[Fool's Bane] (from Illhoof in kara) Fool's Bane - Items - World of Warcraft [The Decapitator] (from Prince in kara) The Decapitator - Items - World of Warcraft | |||||||||||
| #3879 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Paradox |
can you add to the first post the best epic gems to use from hyjal/bt?
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| #3880 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Rhagok |
Well by the time you are there you should probably know which gems to use, not that it would be the same ones anyway (all strengt, strength + crit ... )
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| #3881 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | falonub |
Same as regular but the epic version,
[Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] [Bold Crimson Spinel] [Inscribed Pyrestone] If people have a hard time figuring that out :P | |||||||||||
| #3882 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | panny |
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-Invigorated -Proc buffs such as Haste, (old) Hourglass, with timers so I know if it's worth popping Trinket/Bloodlust/Drums/Pot/what-have-you -To check if I am in range of my buffing totems -For debuffs such as MS (PvP) -For HoTs ticking on me so I know I don't have to waste time healing myself -To show if I don't have an elemental shield of some kind -To show if I don't have a Shout while in combat I can't recommend it enough. On the subject of relic switching: it's not worth it for a melee class. Since switching relics will invoke the GCD, it means no auto-attacks then. It's difficult to time the GCD in between two swings, especially with all the haste effects we have occuring. It might actually completely reset the swing timer! Malan: one thing you might want to add to the Stonebreaker analysis in the first post is that the observed uptime is around 50% with a 10 second cooldown between procs. It might be difficult for some to digest the results just based on the maths without the underlying premises. And then we'd get two months of people posting in this thread asking which is better: Astral Winds or Stonebreaker. | |||||||||||
| #3883 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Cruelty |
Im thinking on what spec would be the best overall dps for a raiding enh shaman once 2.3 is live.
SO few things. On the talent calc make some mental changes (at work so didnt look for a 2.3 talent calc). 2Handed weapons in 2.3 is Focused casting- Chance on Crit shocks cost 60% less Mental quickness is the same as well as in 2.3 with 3 points -30% of your AP = spelldamage and healing First is whats commonly known as the suicide spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Pros- Increased fire totem damage Faster shocks 5 sec shocks down from 6secs Increased shock damage (5% increase) Slightly cheaper shocks. Cons vs enh resto spec (below) - 3% less hit No extended totem range Normal cost totems Standard Heal speed no healing focus Enh/Resto spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Pros - Faster Healing wave Cheaper totems increased totem range Healing focus (lol 14%) Chance to hit increased by 3% Cons Vs Suicide spec (1st link) - Slower shocks Standard fire totem damage Standard shock damage & cost Now my thoughts are that the suicide spec will push out more damage with the improved shocks and fire totem damage, especially with the new mental quickness. My main concern is the 3% to hit is a big loss that would nerf melee damage to counteract the extra damage gained from the better shock/Fire totem damage. Mana should not be a issue with focused state and Shamanistic rage. | |||||||||||
| #3884 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Neithan |
Panny as I cba to set up PowerAuras myself, would you be so kind and put a config file somewhere to download?
Thanks! | |||||||||||
| #3885 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | panny |
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Really though, it's not hard to use, and you won't figure out what my auras are configured for. Last edited by panny : 10/15/07 at 11:36 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3886 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Malan |
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| #3887 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | • Sebudai |
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Convection is a terrible talent for us now, and will be even worse after the patch. If you're dead set on going elemental I would suggest putting those points into Elemental Warding. Enhancement/restoration is clearly the superior spec to me, even damage-wise. Even if it wasn't, I would still put my extra points into restoration because I'm just not going to play this game without Totemic Mastery. Isn't it weird how every time someone posts this enhancement/elemental vs. enhancement/restoration theory they never include any math at all? Somewhat telling, I think. Last edited by Sebudai : 10/15/07 at 11:56 PM. Reason: wrong talent name... | |||||||||||
| #3888 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Cruelty |
Malan I apoligise for rehashing old cr@p thats been posted many times.
Im just interested in the changes in 2.3 with the added spelldamage and mana being less of a issue from focused casting. People seem to be discussing the viability of Flamtongue with a fast weapon at this point. Keep inmind Im not talking about specs pre 2.3 but afterwards as I know the enh/resto spec is the best way to roll. Seeing I have finally gotten my toons transfered to the Pve Ptr I will test out the different specs on the immortal mobs in blastedlands. If your interested I will put up any findings. I realise that the Blastedlands mobs are not the best things to test on but without a tank, healer and a couple of people in halaa its as good as I got. | |||||||||||
| #3889 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | panny |
They finally changed our Arena glove bonus from a harder hitting Lightning Shield to the old Elemental gloves bonus: +5 yards on Shocks. Pretty nice, as I was seriously considering using the four pieces of Enhancement Arena gear with the Elemental gloves solely for the extra 5 yard range. On the other hand, I'm sad that I never got to try out SUPER LIGHTNING SHIELD with the spellpower changes.
Edit: Still not sure about the same old four piece bonus though (-1 second off SS cooldown). | |||||||||||
| #3890 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Mextro |
And now the big question, when are they going to remove mp5 completely? 2.2 patch it's still 'meh' and you barely notice anything from the gains, and next patch we will barely get out of mana.
When are they going to replace it with armor penetration? | |||||||||||
| # | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | falonub | ||||||||||||
| #3892 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
![]() . Gap is getting more narrow though, less than 20 dps! Also, out of curiosity I tried S3 2.6 in the OH and came out 20 dps ahead of DS/Syphon. DS/S3 looks like it might be the best combination out there. Alsssssssso, 2.6 offhands are only 1125 arena points, amazing.Last edited by rava : 10/16/07 at 3:47 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3893 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | SentinelBorg |
Wow, this looks great. Now they just need to remove the damn mp5 from the tier sets and item wise I'm a happy shaman. And I'm very promising, because until now, they made just every adjustment we called for.
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| #3894 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Mano |
I can either offer you a bear in good blue stuff (assuming he's copied over) as tank or my shaman in T4 stuff as healer on the EU PVE PTR.
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| #3895 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Stigmata |
Is there no requirement on arena rating to use the new weapons?
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| #3896 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Atren |
Rating requirements should be for buying only, therefor none on weapons themselves.
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| #3897 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Shakkha |
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It's mostly something that has been overlooked i guess. That weapon is quite nice, probably the best OH now, thanks to the complete lack of any iLvel 151 one hand useable by us shamans. The armor isn't really impressive however more sta sure, but it's still very bad dpswise you pay a high price for this sta/resiliance. It comes down to hitting like a truck and being squishy, or add a bit more survability, and hit like a wet noddle! ![]() Last edited by Shakkha : 10/16/07 at 4:42 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3898 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Ujai | ||||||||||||
| #3899 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | SentinelBorg |
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| #3900 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Paradox |
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| #3901 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
Wait... 1125 points? I can buy 2 :I. They can't not have a rating requirement, all the other weapons do o.O
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| #3902 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Paradox |
yes, I believe all season 3 weapons have a 1850 rating requirement. time to pair up with a warlock..
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| #3903 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Malan |
When viewed at the Vendor, the tooltip for the item says "Requires 1850 personal arena rating". If you then shift-click the item to produce an item link, the new tooltip for the item will not show the arena rating requirement. ie, when you are wearing the items on your char, they will no longer show the rating requirement, since its not required to wear them, just to buy them. Savvy?
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| #3904 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | xereva |
Would be nice if they also added a season 1 and 2 slow offhand... but i guess that will not happen....
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| #3905 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Malan |
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![]() You mean like... [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]? | |||||||||||
| #3906 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | xereva |
![]()
Which cost less then half of what the one-handers cost... (e.g. 1125 arena points vs 2625 arena points). For the 'older' arena weapons we only have the expensive option if we need it for our offhand... and the new one needs 1850 arena rating... | |||||||||||
| #3907 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Paradox |
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| #3908 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | berg |
This is a nice change for sure. These new offhands will save us all 1500 pts. Some early playing around with yo's yields (for me) a ~2% upgrade over 2 supremus hammers which is our current best combo. Now I can buy them both on week 1
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| #3909 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Paradox |
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anyone able to confirm? can't check right now myself. | |||||||||||
| #3910 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Nemaa |
Did someone recalculate the Dragonspine Thropy PPM and uptime values after 2.2 patch? I can't really beleive it's still the best trinket for us as it drops from a T4 instance and it was nerfed in 3 ways with 2.2 (haste nerf, ppm nerf(?), internal cooldown added)
Dragonspine Trophy Analysis In the end of this thread it's a bit confusing that it's still the best trinket for us or not. Some say it's 1 PPM now and in the first post of this thread we assume 1.5 PPM. | |||||||||||
| #3911 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Stigmata |
In practice i'm finding RT/Syphon to be better than 2 x Syphon. Yo's sim doesnt agree, but then sims are only a guide.
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| #3912 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
By the same token, I am wondering if S3/Syphon will be better than S3/S3. Seems to me like 2.6/2.8 is, in practice, better than 2.6/2.6 or 2.8/2.8 simply because in pve it's easy to always be hitting with the offhand before the mainhand when using same speed weapons, which would pretty significantly reduce your dps. If you're using 2.6/2.8 or 2.7/2.8, eventually it will come 'round to a full cycle and for a good portion of the time your mainhand will be "allowed" to proc windfury before your offhand.
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| #3913 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | berg |
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I really appreciate the even distribution of item mods on the S3 weapons. Let us hope that Sunwell weapons have a similar 'budget friendly' distribution. This will doubtlessly be a hot topic and something we should plan on gathering data for. My hope is that sunwell will obsolete all of them though ![]() Last edited by berg : 10/16/07 at 1:53 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3914 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | • Shabadu |
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| #3915 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Rapparee |
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My experience as enhance in arena, is that I can reach half way into the 1600s before falling like a rock. I have doubts that I can get a personal rating of 1850... which is fine, they are supposed to be arena weapons, not something for fighting Kil'jaeden. All I know is that sunwell better damnwell have a non-unique, non-sword slow one hander. | |||||||||||
| #3916 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | berg |
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The team arena score updates on the fly so I see no reason why it would prevent you from buying once your team breaks the 1850 mark on week 1. | |||||||||||
| #3917 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Rob |
These changes are really exciting as far as our PvP itemization is concerned. I'm glad my crusade to get the glove equip bonus changed was successful. The small amounts of MP5 on S3 gear aren't really enough to complain about given that the pieces are otherwise very well itemized (DPS stats split between STR, Hit, Crit, ignore armor, and yellow/red sockets on the two items with MP5). Does anyone have a link to the aforementioned "Vengeful Gladiator's Left Render"? If such a thing exists, I'm definitely going to have to figure out a way to get 1850 personal rating. (That axe graphic is pretty ugly and while I find the maces and fists cool, I couldn't find a 2.6 speed off-hand mace or fist.)
As far as PvE itemization, well, perhaps these changes show they're listening and will take the MP5 off T6 if we bother them enough? Last edited by Rob : 10/16/07 at 2:55 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3918 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
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For Rob: http://www.worldofraids.com/news/oct...ons/render.jpg http://www.worldofraids.com/news/oct...ns/chopper.jpg Doesn't have the mace but it's basically the same thing. Show your support: WoW Forums -> Enhancement Shaman T6 Last edited by rava : 10/16/07 at 3:05 PM. | |||||||||||
| #3919 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | falonub |
edit: Rava beat me to the punch ~_~ :P ^ and @ malan, yeah I realized that; and I questioned my mental capacity after that :P Guess I'm just tired
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| #3920 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Malan |
That's an axe not a mace.
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| #3921 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Rob |
Found my own link to the "Left Render" at WoR.
It looks to me like in these screenshots the MH weapons are currently not requiring an 1850 rating to equip. Compare the above shot to this one showing the Right Ripper for comparison; the item icon isn't overlaid with red to show it's not equippable and the "Requires 1850" isn't appearing in the text. This is a very interesting change as well. | |||||||||||
| #3922 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | vorda |
Argh, nvm. You just proved the people in the PTR topic wrong by the way.
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| #3923 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | generalanders |
Has anyone tested the hidden cooldown effect with totem'ing the mainhand and windfurying the offhand(are they unlinked)? What about a weaponswap that quickly throws the offhand into main for the WF totem buff, and then swaps back? I know the second option would be a lot of extra hassle.
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| #3924 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Rob |
From the first post:
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| #3925 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Neithan |
Another request (starting to feel like a spammer here). As I suck on macros:
Macro to: (equip totem, will this trigger GDC? if yes, do it after startattack) Start attack Stormstrike and repeat. I've tried some experimenting but macro simply stops attack after 2-3 push. Thanks a lot. | |||||||||||
| #3926 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Neithan |
Another request (starting to feel like a spammer here). As I suck on macros:
Macro to: (equip totem, will this trigger GDC? if yes, do it after startattack) Start attack Stormstrike and repeat. I've tried some experimenting but macro simply stops attack after 2-3 push. Thanks a lot. | |||||||||||
| #3927 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
If you wanted to do something like that, it would probably have to be a castsequence macro.
/startattack /castsequence Stormstrike, Totem Thingy Press that twice whenever stormstrike is up and your totem will get equipped while the GCD from Stormstrike is still cooling down. | |||||||||||
| #3928 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Lujaar |
Some quick, sloppy napkinmath on the ele vs resto thing:
With UR and stormstrike up I was earthshocking for ~1100 on PTR. With a 5% crit rate (2.5% more damage) and 16% miss rate, my earthshocks are going to average 930 damage. Shocking every 6 seconds is 155 DPS. Shocking every 6.3 seconds is 147 DPS (one in five shocks delayed one GCD because your shock came off cooldown at the same time as stormstrike). Shocking every 5 seconds is 186 DPS. So Reverb is worth 39 DPS. For comparison, Nature's Guidance is 3% more white damage and 3% more shock damage. (Really, the 3% more white damage thing is a gross oversimplification - the extra attacks can't crit, but they may be able to proc windfury. It's close enough to 3% white damage that I'm going to just go with that.) But anyway, 3% more white damage, 3% more shock damage. Last I checked something like 60% of my melee damage was white damage, and I average about 1000 melee DPS (shocks excluded, obviously). So the 3% hit is worth ~18 DPS. The 3% spell hit is going to be about 5 DPS. So just comparing reverb vs nature's guidance, reverb comes out 16 DPS ahead. Factoring in Concussion and Call of Flame, I'd expect a ~25 DPS increase from going elemental over resto. Whether 25 DPS + elemental warding is more valuable than cheaper totems + faster HW + imp reincarnate isn't a numbers question and can only be answered by the individual player. | |||||||||||
| #3929 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Ilmatar |
For me the kicker is improved totem range. In my opinion, totem range should be 30' standard and expandable with talent.
Out of curiosity, did the elemental testing include the +3% spell hit from that talent? Since we have no spell hit, I'm curious how much difference that makes in shock resists. I secretly want the Ele/Enh build to work as well, primarily for Reverb and elemental warding. I just cringe at giving up the totem range and natures guidance. | |||||||||||
| #3930 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
I can confirm from checking out the vendor myself that lot of weapons have no rating requirement on item link OR on mouseover. A lot of them on the other hand, do.
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| #3931 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
Definitely looked at the wrong forum, but frequent the suggestion forums!
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| #3932 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Ilmatar |
Curiosity: Stonebreaker totem says "Shock spells have..." does that mean the spell needs to be cast, or the spell needs to hit? I am guessing that it needs to hit, but the text doesn't indicate that.
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| #3933 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | falonub |
Guys....this isn't the pally forums I know, but after widespread complaining and/or just bringing it up, paladins now get a threat reduction talent in their retribution tree. 30% reduced threat. While we have our threat reduction, if enough people petition about mp5 on t6, or the set bonus of our t6 or even our talents such as anticipation/toughness we may get it changed. It's possible.
WoW Forums -> Retribution Threat Change | |||||||||||
| #3934 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Cruelty |
DamageMeters: <DPS> report on 14/3 sources:
#01: Crueltii 1092.8 #02: Searing Totem VII 65.0 #03: Fire Nova Totem VII 0.6 Combat duration = 1791.82 seconds. Total = 1158.4 (1158.4 visible) Ok so thats the stats on the immortal mob in Blastedlands for the ele/enh spec for a full WF duration (30mins). The mob level is 54 non elite btw. Need to balance my macros cast sequence for this spec so Im shocking in the right spots.. I was finding there was times I was waiting on the SS cooldown to finish while the shocks were up. That could push some more damage. recount was showing my crit rate for melee vs a lvl 54 as 33.5% vs 29.99% actual. To give you a idea of the extra kinda damage hitting a 54 would be. So Id say maybe drop 100 dps from the 1158.4 possibly more. DamageMeters: <DPS> report on 14/2 sources: #01: Crueltii 1063.9 #02: Searing Totem VII 58.0 Combat duration = 1807.55 seconds. Total = 1121.9 (1121.9 visible) Was the damage from the enh resto spec on the same mobs. Now as you can see its not a big damage difference but I think it something thats scales more with AP (spelldamage) than with just the hit incease. So the shocks and searing totem will start to do more damage when raidbuffed (yeah durr I know). Its had to see the actual damage difference of having that extra hit because of the mobs level. If I can work out the best timing for my cast sequence for the ele/enh spec so i dont waste proc chances Im thinking that the damage will be higher again. | |||||||||||
| #3935 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | drats |
Blasted lands mobs skew results. There's no real reason to use them anymore.
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| #3936 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Aeolian |
The loss of the +hit from the Restoration spec will hurt you much more versus a mob of equal level or a boss level mob then it will against a level 54 mob in the blasted lands. You cannot effectively test the difference in the two spec's without taking each one into an instance and testing it. I would recommend something like Morogrim since you can stand stationary behind him for most of the fight. Unless you find the gear to replace the hit lost by those talents your miss rate will increase dramatically. And replacing that hit with gear is going to decrease your DPS because you cannot focus on other stats that would increase it.
If you were to have gear at Stigmata's level, where you get a great deal of Hit Rating from the gear without any serious loss in DPS, I could see the switch for the additional damage, but even then your losing out on +Spell Hit and the increased totem range. That +Spell Hit will effect your shock DPS as well, even after 2.3. | |||||||||||
| #3937 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Cruelty |
Yep thats currently what im thinking now after nutting it out some more. What I really need is some good raiding results to back up which spec will be the best.
To give you all a idea in difference of dps vs the blastedlands (epeen stroking mobs) I got invited to a ZA lastnight. Using the standard enh/resto spec (a few differences for the Mental quickness) I was at the 700-750 (fire totems included) dps mark on the trash and bosses. It would proberly be higher if It was just data from the bossfights but I wanted to see the difference in my missrate with the nerf to the orc weapon racial. Few things I would like to mention is that with the upped threat reduction for melee to 30% and salv (dont leave home without it) threat was not a issue for me at all. If I did accidently pull agro because I started on a mob early I just used Shamanistic Rage for the damage reduction as well. With the Focused casting (60% cheaper shocks) and the new water sheild mana was never a issue, I rarely had to use SR for mana back. Only gripe is that the spelldamage is not correctly reflected in the toon sheet but I have fed that back to blizz. | |||||||||||
| #3938 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | panny |
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The Arena Maces look like giant bouquets anyway. Last edited by panny : 10/17/07 at 12:57 AM. | |||||||||||
| #3939 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Minel |
I have bin browsing through alot of forums here lately since i rerolled an enhancement shammy from a rogue... And a question i find not really answered is, how effective it is to use the old GM weapon wich has a speed on 2.9 in the OH over lets say a weapon like netherbane or the merci 2.6 weapons.
This is when im using dragonstrike in my MH (2.7) speed. so it just confuses me abit that, we need a slow offhand is clearly stated but if its a 2.6 it will still hit first in most cases and steal the MH WF proc. So what i would really love is, if someone could throw some info with some theorycraft telling me that im totaly wrong using the old GM weapon in OH or not. Since im not that good with math and stuff i would just love if someone could help me out. | |||||||||||
| #3940 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Ilmatar |
Toss it in the sim, and find out.
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| #3941 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Tornhoof |
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the closed attacktable looks like (100-28-6-6.25+20+40) = 119.75 now increasing hit +3, it is 122.75, the dps increase in % is now 2.5% for white dmg, so something in the range of 1.25-1.5% total dmg as for shocks, basic resist is 17%, so getting 3% spellhit, increases our factor to 0.86, so the dmg increase for shocks is 0.86/0.83 = 3.6%. Assuming 10% total dps from shocks, this is not even 0.5% of total dmg. Nature's Guidance is worth some 1.5-2.0% in dps for a fully geared enh shaman Lujaar's math is fine, except that spellmiss is actually 17% against lvl 73, does not change the result that much though. Technically you can not beat Reverbaration in DPS increase and as he said, it's up to you if it is worth for you. | |||||||||||
| #3942 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Shakkha |
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Being a Macesmith myself, i wonder when i see Blacksmith enhancement shamans using rising tide, or Syphons. Do you guys value those over Dragonstrike? I can imagine the axesmith replacing wicked edge by Rising Tide, since it's simply better, but what about macesmithes what would you use? ![]()
I've never tested this myself yet, but i had the feeling having both hands at the same speed was actually a good thing for flurry reasons. Now i read the contrary i'm a bit confused, are there some parses confirming your feelings? | |||||||||||
| #3943 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Mano |
this is using the general AEP from the first post, as it's more or less general thinking
The chance to critical strike increases by 1% per 22.1 critical strike rating points at level 70, thus using 1 crit rating as 2 AEP, 1% Crit is ~44AEP. (which actually seems pretty high?) It's 1% per 15.8 hit rating points at level 70. general AEP for hit rating is 1.17. The old bonus is ~3% hit and 0.2% crit (plus whatever else), which is equal to ~64.26EP(plus whatever else). Pretty steep nerf which might actually value hit rating a bit more for Orcs now. According to the first post, [Wicked Edge of the Planes] is worth 94 AEP for non-Orcs, [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] is worth 84 AEP, while [Dragonstrike] is worth 98AEP. Comparing the two BS weapons, the axe would still totally destroy the mace it seems. Actually practically any axe would destroy anything other except for outgeared stuff (when coming from AEP alone, not factoring DPS)? Something totally different: has anyone checked on PTR if the BS weapons still are MH only? I've copied my char over, but didn't think to check it out. Last edited by Mano : 10/17/07 at 7:55 AM. Reason: itemlink wrong | |||||||||||
| #3944 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Veritas17 |
Alright so are you saying that the wicked edge of the planes is actually better than the dragonstrike still? I know, i'm a tad slow as it's 7:01am here where i'm at and i've been sick the past two days without sleep.
That said, i'm trying to find out more about what AEP is exactly thru the archives so forgive me my noobiness. edit: I looked for you and no, they didn't make the BS weapons one handed. :/ Last edited by Veritas17 : 10/17/07 at 8:15 AM. Reason: answering previous question | |||||||||||
| #3945 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Stigmata |
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| #3946 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
For flurry reasons, in a perfect situation, same speed is always going to be better if you can get your weapons attacking at the same time because the game has to fudge the numbers a bit to compensate for lag. However, using two same speed weapons can seriously nerf your windfury damage if you're always attacking with your offhanding first, which you will be doing if you begin attacking outside of melee range of the mob. That's most likely why, in practice, slow/slower works out better for damage than same speed weapons.
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| #3947 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
This is a fallacy -- the same thing has an equal chance of happening with MH procs. Using the same speed weapons is simply more subject to streakiness due to this factor; different speeds will eventually force the cycle to be broken and can result in more consistent damage. In truth it matters little because Stormstrike always considers the MH to hit first and thus get first chance to proc. You'll rarely see the same hand proc more than a few times in a row, and it ends up being more of a coin toss chance as to which hand will go off next with the odds slightly skewed in the main hand's favor.
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| #3948 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Kurisu |
Mind you the adjusted values of AEP for Orcs will no longer mean anything since their racial will work different, just take the weapons natural AEP and add 1% crit level of AEP to it. Basically your just adding in 35.2-44 AEP on average (i believe since it is just 1.6/2 times 22 for the crit rating).
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| #3949 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
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My main intent in discussing this is to figure out why people are, in practice, seeing larger DPS gains using 2.6/2.8 vs. 2.8/2.8 so what we can decide whether S3/S3 is going to be better or worse than S3/Syphon when Arena Season 3 comes out. | |||||||||||
| #3950 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
It probably has something to do with how a 2.6 drops to exactly 2.0 speed when flurried, which is one of the sweet spots for WF proc rate.
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| #4076 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Atren |
Not really. See 28 agi gives more crit than 20 crit rating and 20 hit rating is more than 11 hit rating. Sockets number is same, and both are good socket types. Socket bonus is better for T6. That gives 37 str vs 58 AP in which T6 clearly wins. With BoK it is about 81 AP vs 58 AP. So 23 AP compared to about 3 crit rating (from head, can be way wrong :P) and 9 hit rating. THeir rather close to each other. T6 has more non-AEP stats however with 48 stamina, 19 intellect and 7 MP5/s compared to just 30 stamina.
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| #4077 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Oteb | ||||||||||||
| #4078 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Freyalis |
Ah yes those were the days, ZHC + Ancient Hakkari Manslayer was a pretty brutal combo aswell heheh, both easily available from ZG
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| #4079 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Neithan |
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(Time to do some more calculations). Altough: Coefficients Strength 2,2 Agility 2,05 Red Socket 17,6 Yellow Socket 17,24 Blue Socket 8,8 Hit Rating 1,84 Critical Strike Rating 2,11 Haste Rating 1,94 Attack Power 1 Ignore Armor 0,32 Expertise Rating 2,484 Last edited by Neithan : 10/19/07 at 10:08 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4080 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
To the guy asking about hit rating and WF procs - I suggest you read this article. Attack tables and you - WOW Insider
I've added the weapon DPS AEP values, along with an example comparison of Netherbane vs Merciless Gladiator weapons, and updated Panny's calculations on Stonebreaker. Last edited by Malan : 10/19/07 at 10:31 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4081 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Pitbuller |
I did have some extra time today and I double checked my math with Wdps aep.
I used Base line 2*2.6s*100dps weapons(easier to compare), 30%crit, 18% hit, 1500ap, 4400 armor, 2*mongoose, totem of astral winds, RED, BoM, MotW, soe, flask of resentless assault. No shocks nor 2.3. (Those are listed that yuo can check my test result if you want. I think if you use different values you should get same result anyway.) result from YO's simulator. scaling Mh wDPS and AP: ![]() AP MhWdps Total DPS 652 200 980 1076 150 981 1500 100 979 1924 50 979 2348 0 978 ![]() AP Oh Wdps Total DPS 1076 200 978 1288 150 979 1500 100 979 1712 50 979 1924 0 980 EDIT: finally its readable. Last edited by Pitbuller : 10/19/07 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Messy | |||||||||||
| #4082 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
I'm not sure I understand your chart. You may want to use the [ code ] tags to allow spacing.
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| #4083 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Mindrila |
I'm wondering why noone implemented the Wrath Card into simulations, it isn't that hard i think. (Well I have no sourcecode of a simulator available so I can't say how difficult it is)
The card is working like this: If the hit is not a crit increase critrating by 17 for melee and spells. If the hit is a crit return to normal critrating. Stormstrike procs the card. Windfury doesn't. Shocks proc the card. I really don't know how complex this is to integrate but I would like to see some thing of a chart like AEP over Basecritrating. AEP would be calculated like this: (Critrate - Basiccritrate)*22.1* AEP Valuation for Crit I would like to see someone modelling this card into a simulator (my shaman has this card and it's really hard to say if its worth it or not, so a simulation would be nice) | |||||||||||
| #4084 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Jerem |
As far as the Darkmoon : Wrath card is concerned, it is modelled in Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet.
It might be totally different for a Shaman, but for a Hunter it becomes less and less efficient the more "passive" crit% you have. Call that "negative scaling" if you want. Since Crit Rating is one of the most valued stat, I wouldn't invest in a Wrath card. For a hunter, the Darkmoon : Crusade card is better than Wrath. Should be similar, or close to similar for a Shaman. Last edited by Jerem : 10/19/07 at 11:36 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4085 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
Its the same way for Shaman. The less crit you have, the better the Wrath card is. The more crit you have, the value of the card approaches zero. According to people who have figured it out, at 30% or more crit (easily achieved in T5 gear with buffs) you are critting so often that you only see a couple stacks of the card at any time.
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| #4086 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Ardonomus |
Searched for [Band of the Eternal Champion], all I found was a few-post discussion about it. I'm currently AEP valuing all the gear from Hyjal and BT but I have a hard time on this one due to the chance on hit effect.
Any update on that? | |||||||||||
| #4087 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
Very few people are Exalted with Hyjal and so we have next to no data available. I think Stigmata said he's pretty close to it, that was a few weeks ago.
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| #4088 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Shabadu |
I'll have it on Tuesday but I don't test things and just run by the seat of my pants. I've heard 60 sec internal cooldown with 1ppm and I'll have some anecdotal evidence after BT on wed.
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| #4089 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Nemaa |
In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP
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| #4090 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Torrential |
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Of course to make all this work you're basing it off of that trinket, and in the end there's probably another trinket you could use with more standard crit rate and come out just s good or better. | |||||||||||
| #4091 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | panny |
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| #4092 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
I think you answered your own question and speaking personally here, I have no interest in pursuing the particular mechanics of the Dark Moon card.
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| #4093 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Ardonomus |
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| #4094 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Tristan |
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160 * 10 / 60 = ~26.7 AEP | |||||||||||
| #4095 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
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Nevertheless, that's not a skewed comparison at all. Skyshatter is heavy on STA, INT, and MP5. Pauldrons of Primal Fury has no INT and no MP5, freeing up a ton of item budget to be used on useful stats. You're comparing: 34 STR, 11 hit, 26 crit to 28 AGI, 20 hit, 58 AP. Those are almost identical in terms of DPS. | |||||||||||
| #4096 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Tristan |
Most likely you are not including either meta gems or gem estimates on Live. Meta gem slots or in reality RED in the meta slot will have 75 AEP added to it's value if gem estimates and meta gems are checked since Increase Critical Damage 3% isn't a pure stat that can't be multiplied with output from ItemBonusLib.
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| #4097 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Noise |
Is anyone working on a definitive stat weight for weapon expertise?
I grabbed the shoulder pads of the stranger last night to see how it works out. Now to re-copy myself to test. I would be replacing the T5 shoulders so I struggle to think they would be better. On the other hand I have no Expertise rating on any other items, as with most stats, I'm sure the first couple of points will make the most difference. There is nothing worse than seeing that MH WF proc come up: DODGE DODGE | |||||||||||
| #4098 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
Weapon expertise is going to vary from fight to fight based on how often the boss mob casts (casting mobs can't dodge) and how easy it is to maintain perfect positioning behind the mob (mobs can't parry from behind).
That said, it looks fairly valuable. Multiply hit rating AEP by 1.8 if you assume that the mob will never cast and never parry. | |||||||||||
| #4099 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Neithan |
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. After doing some calculations it seems that Z'A/badge loot is close to T6. | |||||||||||
| #4100 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Noise |
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After looking at it, this makes the Shoulderpads of the Stranger a no brainer over the T5 shoulder until you can get the 4 piece bonus. Yet another piece of my set to get shelfed for a better leather item. WTS MP5 | |||||||||||
| #4276 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Tsalrioth | ||||||||||||
| #4277 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Rhagok |
Definitely not all the test you have seen, because surely Stigmata would disagree with you. He is wielding RT / Syphon too btw.
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| #4278 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | panny |
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| #4279 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Gulvan |
A question I have right now though is if I should keep my dragonstrike or go with RT/Syphon. I know the haste proc is huge in figuring out dps numbers but am I at the point where the stats gained from rt will outweigh the proc buff?
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| #4280 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
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I have all of the "best" weapon combos and in game testing as well as sims have always had Dragonstrike above any other MH weapon for me. I don't understand your "at the point" statement because it's not like haste has a constant value, it gets more valuable as your other stats increase as well. And a big WTF to ret paladins, clearly we are not bitching enough. S3 gear has been out for what, 2 weeks? Glad that stuff is getting changed for them. Last edited by rava : 10/26/07 at 1:36 AM. Reason: wtf | |||||||||||
| #4281 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | drats |
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The t6 2p really really needs to be changed in 2.3. Since they changed the old t1 bonus when our 30yd totem range talent came out, I don't think this would be too much of a stretch. Last edited by drats : 10/26/07 at 2:42 AM. Reason: I need to read the dictionary more. | |||||||||||
| #4282 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Jinne |
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In the calculation I can't figure out what the 18/36 are from. Misery for earch shock, that's 5, where do the other 13 come from? Same thing for Flame shock, 13+5+15=33? Where do the extra 3 come from. Also, is Stormstrike included in that calculation? On a different topic, I read the note about Searing totem in the original post, but it only mention the 2.3 version. Is it worth using currently? Last edited by Jinne : 10/26/07 at 3:01 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4283 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | david0925 |
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5% is Misery 15% is Scorch 20% Stormstrike is included in ES Searing Totem is worth using right now because we don't have a lot of places to spend mana anyway, if you don't twist totems. | |||||||||||
| #4284 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Morelis |
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| #4285 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | McMullet |
Can someone tell me the exact base miss rates on mobs based on level?
I had a friend try and tell me that OH has a higher miss rate than MH? Thanks in advance! | |||||||||||
| #4286 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
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| #4287 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | • Disquette |
If you use disqodice and would like some input on the display of the watershield component, I'm looking for help and would appreciate it if people would stop by here:
How would you do this? - Not code help, I want design suggestions | |||||||||||
| #4288 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | beetlejuice |
Hello fellow shamans,
i would like to add my two words of wisdom. Be careful with your new gear addition. Don't vendor your old one, unless it is an exact upgrade of stats. But if your new gear has different stats, like not agi and critical strike but agi and hit rating or haste rating, better keep them both as you cant tell when you will go lower in hit rating or critical or any, with the constant upgrade in your gear. And no calculator or AEP can figure that out for you. Stats are good to weight but you should look your overall stats when deciding your current gear. Keep all different epics in your bank, it wont hurt. Going below 125-140 in hit rating is bad, going below 28% (without feral druid in raid) or 25% (with feral druid in raid) is also bad. These numbers are empirical and are my base crit stats, accompanied with 2 mongooses. So keep your blue crit trinkets and your old hit rating epic gear in bank,. You will have situations you will really need to stir that big soup of epics to make a nice viable combo of gear. I would also like to agree with some posts, 14 talent points in resto are essential for maximizing your dps. But to maximize dps in long raid battles, means that you need also cheaper mana costs for totems and for shocks. Thats why i really use 5 points in totems (or 3 and rest 2 in improved reincarnation ) and remaining talent points in elemental tree for even cheaper shocks. Also Totemic Mastery is a must as its your only weapon against fear outranging your tremor tick rate. A good end raid enhancement spec is http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/shaman/talents.html?2000000000000000000005050021250213353115105005301000000000000 that cheap shocks that can make him use stormstrike and shocks max possible time in dps fight. For 2.3 i can say some things i encountered. We never go out of mana even if we nuke for 10minutes. The Shamanistic focus is overpowered as between 6seconds of shock cooldown you will crit at least 2-3 times. That means you have constant 60% cheaper shocks to use.The part of the talent of mental quickness that refers to 6% cheaper shocks is obsolete and should be removed. In my opinion, i won;t post it at blizzard forums :P, there should be a stackable buff from your melee criticals, that reduces the mana cost of shocks from a low discount to a high discount. That would be nice and reasonable. PS. For the Darkmoon card : Crusade i would like to add that it creates two stackable buffs on the Enhancement shaman. One is your AP and one is for your Spelldmg. Even with 6second Shocks i have had situations where i stacked up all the spelldmg bonus from this trinket (80spelldmg), u merely need 60seconds , or 10 shocks without 2 being resisted continuously. Thats why i would like you to reconsider the AEP of this trinket and add something more to it. | |||||||||||
| #4289 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | rava |
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| #4290 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | david0925 |
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If you're summarizing things, please say so. You're acting as if you're talking about something none of us has ever thought about or experienced. | |||||||||||
| #4291 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Etelmo |
Please have a look at the wow test realm forums, I have posted a bug to do with grounding totem that kinda needs to be fixed.
So far it only seems to effect Judgement of command from my testing, however since I have only tested using a ret paladin... This doesn't mean much. The bug means that even if grounding totem is down, you will still take damage from JoC and the totem will be destroyed. I can see it having the same effect on other abilitys however. It would be good if other people could do some more testing, and maybe report it to try and get it fixed. | |||||||||||
| #4292 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Malan | ||||||||||||
| #4293 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Paradox |
I'm at the point now where I can start using Epic gems in any new gear I get (MH/BT gear) I'm just wondering, how would I go about deciding on which ones to use? How do /you/ decide? do you just run the gems through the java sim and see which gives that tiny bit more DPS, or are there certain AP/CRIT values you are aiming for? Like 1600 AP 30% crit etc
thanks | |||||||||||
| #4294 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Nemaa |
It's very simple, use Yo's sim to get the values for the stats, you can apply them to the gems of course.
For socket bonus you can calculate if 2 x 10 STR is better or red + yellow + socket bonus, for example. You'll need 2 blue gems for the RED metagem so you need to find the two armor pieces that gives you the most AEP with socket bonus. For example you have [Midnight Chestguard], [Bow-stitched Leggings] and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Having the socket bonus of the chest and the legs and putting 2 x 10 STR in the belt is generally better than putting 3 x 10 STR in the chest and having the socket bonus of the leggings and the belt (but it depends on your values). | |||||||||||
| #4295 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Paradox |
Thanks that helps. And with that, I have some questions about the Java sim.. need to know if i'm using it correctly.
I want to assume Kings, because I have kings on every raid.. now on the buffs page, it has an option for kings, but in the text below the simulator it mentions something about you putting in your stats with kings in, so just to be sure will selecting the Kings buff do that for me when running the tests or do I have to work out my stats with kings then check the kings buff? Another thing is the haste, what's the "5" haste that is there? should I change that to 0? I don't really know what it is. Haste potion on the buffs page.. is that assuming you are popping a haste potion on every cooldown? don't really understand how it works. I'm also a bit unsure about what this whole "works out your /own/ aep values based on /your/ gear, because what if my gear is wrong/incorrect in the first place? I really can't see how this works? maybe someone can explain it to me in lamens terms. That's all thanks! | |||||||||||
| #4296 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Sebudai |
You want to input your stats(attack power, crit rating) with kings. I believe checking the kings option is just so it takes the buff into account when assigning an AEP value for strength and agility. For example strength has an AEP value of 2.0, unless you have kings, then each point of strength would have an AEP value of 2.2.
That haste number is the percentage of haste you have from gear. AEP values are just numbers that tell us how valuable each stat is to us based on the gear we're currently using. The stats in WoW scale with eachother. For example as your crit percentage gets higher, the value of additional crit rating starts to decrease, and the value of additional attack power starts to increase. The stats work with eachother, which is why it's never really wise to focus on stacking one particular stat. You want some of everything. The simulator is going to give you AEP values based off of your particular stats. | |||||||||||
| #4297 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Malan |
Right, that was a discussion we had with Yo quite some time back. Since you are only entering your AP, you need to let the sim know that you are getting part of that AP with Kings on. The best way to use the sim is to get buffed with MotW and Kings (since MotW affects your Strength/Agility and Kings will further increase that value) and then add in all the static buffs on the sim that have nothing to do with Kings.
If your gear is "wrong" then the sim and the AEP values it gives you will reflect that. Lets say that you stacked +Hit at the expense of all other stats, maybe you have like 300 +Hit but only 500 AP and 20% Crit. Your AEP values would place Strength and Crit/Agility very very high, but would weigh Hit rating extremely low. That would skew your gear selection toward items that spent no points on Hit Rating, but had high values of crit/str/AP. | |||||||||||
| #4298 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Paradox |
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I really couldn't work out how it worked, so it's really the best idea to get your own weights from the sim and use them in Enhancer rather than using the default ones in the first post?Thanks for the replies. | |||||||||||
| #4299 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Malan |
Meh... I dunno about 'best'. The default values work well enough as a baseline I think. For the most part nobody has really shown us an AEP value that gave radically different priorities of gear than anyone else - unless that guy had been exclusively stacking one stat. A few items shift around in priority, thats all I really see when I've plugged in different sets.
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| #4300 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Gartixxar |
heya, I an new to theory crafting and in the last 4 days or so I have read all 172 pages of posts or so of this thread, I have found the information and discussion here to all be very helpful. Thank you very much for this thread.
My guild is currently just starting ssc and has downed lurker and VR, and I have pretty much entry level SSC/TK gear with the exception of the pendant. I did my first simulation using Yo's sim and this is what I came up with ![]() Shot at 2007-10-27 I was using major agility pots,BoM, BoK, MoTW, LoTP, TSA, GoA, SoE and roasted clefthoof for this (what I normally have up) And I believe I input the right numbers. I did 2 more sims after and here is what I got (assuming strength=2.2 and ap=1) AEP values of 3 sims #1 crit rating = 1.6 hit rating=1.59 haste rating=1.75 Armor penetration=0.28 agility= 1.55 #2 crit rating = 1.65 hit rating=1.63 haste rating=1.71 Armor penetration=0.27 agility= 1.6 #3 crit rating = 1.69 hit rating=1.68 haste rating=1.77 Armor penetration=0.28 agility= 1.64 there all slightly different.....does it matter which of these value sets I use??? or should I use the second one since it is in between 1 and 3? those AEP values seem right to me and I am thinking I am just about avg for SSC entry gear do you think slightly lowering these stats or tweaking them a little and putting them through Yo's would provide a good AEP base value for entering SSC/TK?? this is my armory if it helps The World of Warcraft Armory this was done with BoK included...its 1690 because I factored in bloodlust brooch by doing (278*20/120) which came out to roughly 46 So i added it to 1644 (since theres no choice for bloodlust brooch) Last edited by Gartixxar : 10/28/07 at 12:33 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4426 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Rapparee |
This whole agility versus crit rating is superfluous.
One side is arguing AEP values - the other side is arguing survivability. It's two separate arguments. Nowhere in this thread are armor, agility, stamina or resistances given any weighting in the AEP system. I think this is fine, we're determining how to maximize raid-level, against-bosses-only DPS. Why is Rapparee going to take the skyshatter legs over the bow-stitched leggings? They have 40 freaking more stamina. (the bow-stitched have 2 more sockets one of which i'd put 7 stamina+5str in... still that gives the t6 33 stam. bonus) In my particular raiding circumstances, I need more life than a shaman in a perfect raid with ulitmate healers. I like my healers they're good people, but they aren't perfect. Some people do have perfect healers, which makes me every so slightly jealous. Why does Rapparee not care about agility vs. crit rating? Because I personally don't care about dying to BT trash, oh well i'll have to use the repair-guy after next wipe. No single trash monster in Hyjal can kill me in under 4 seconds. My healers may not be perfection but they aren't 4seconds slow either. Also any of my healers reading this. I'm not perfection either, otherwise I'd never fall for that sneaky doomfire's tricks. Also to reply to Skiace.... My values indicate that at my current gearing agility is worth more than strength... just barely. It's all dependant on the gear you are currently wearing and the buffs you can expect while raiding. Last edited by Rapparee : 10/31/07 at 4:10 PM. | |||||||||||
| #4427 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Skiace |
I know it's gear dependent, that's not my point. My point is, I've seen a lot of people's stat weightings, and they all seem to trend between the "entry level" listed in the OP and the BT/hyjal level where crit/agi etc are all 2+. My gear is a full tier above the entry level, yet my crit/agi numbers are significantly lower than the entry level ones. This confuses me.
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| #4428 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Rapparee |
That is entirely the point of the AEP system.
The gear you currently wear, the buffs you currently expect to have influence just how important crit rating and agility are. If you want to know why your values are different from someone else, then look at the gear you wear and compare it to the gear they wear. If every single item is the same, enchanted the same, and you use the same talents and raid with the same buffs, but still get different AEP values, then one or both of you have mis-calculated your AEP values. The best way to use the AEP system is to evaluate the next piece of gear that drops against the one you wear in that slot. Does the shoulder that just dropped have a higher AEP than my current shoulder? (for example) Once you get one or two new pieces, you need to recalculate all of your AEP values. | |||||||||||
| #4429 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Skiace |
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As a small test, I ran the sim with my gear -5% hit, because I have a lot of hit for my level and wanted to see if that was the culprit. The results were higher values for crit/agi, which seems to imply that my increased hit actually devalues further crit. This doesn't make sense to me either, particularly if yellow attacks are a two-roll system as (i think) the current theory claims. It also means that were I to follow the aep values every time i get a gear upgrade, agi/crit would continue to go down relative to hit/ap, and I'd end up stacking hit, which doesn't jive at all with the experiences of everyone else in this thread. edit: running it some more with my current gear, I'm now getting more reasonable values. I have no clue what's different, perhaps the sim has changed since I last ran all these test. Last edited by Skiace : 10/31/07 at 5:11 PM. | |||||||||||
| #4430 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Hamilburg |
Make sure you're inputting the values that the sim expects:
AP should be without any buffs other than kings. I forget off the top of my head if hit should or shouldn't have the contribution from talents added in (I believe it does). I know I got wonky results when I put in my raidbuffed AP rather than my unbuffed tooltip AP. | |||||||||||
| #4431 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Rapparee |
If you want to know why one value goes down when another value goes up, then read every page in this thread. All the formulas are derived from theorized systems of how the game calculates your damage.
Let me ask you, what will you do with the information? If I said to you, that AP and crit follow an inverse relationship where every 10 AP increase results in a -0.04 AEP valuation of crit, what would you do differently? Edit: name of boot, AEP using entry level, AEP using Skiace's numbers. Boots of Utter Darkness 159.86 150.78 Cobra-Lash Boots 155.42 149.15 Star-Strider Boots 155.42 149.15 Boots of the Crimson Hawk 144.15 131.8 Boots of Effortless Striking 131.08 123.1 Boots of Natural Grace 130 126.74 If you look at the numbers both sets of AEP rank the best boots for you in the same order. The last 3 boots are ones you shouldn't even bother getting, while any of the first 3 are pretty good for you. So even if you think your numbers are goofball values, it ended up not mattering when it comes time to choose your boots in SSC/Eye. Last edited by Rapparee : 10/31/07 at 5:25 PM. Reason: added some example numbers: | |||||||||||
| #4432 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | • Disquette |
Skiace, can you please post a screenshot of your input screens on the sim (or type them all out)?
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| #4433 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Skiace |
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![]() Procs: MH-WF/dragonstrike OH-WF/Mongoose Hourglass RED Buffs: Kings (but base stats are without unfortunately) MotW LotP Major Agi elixer SoE Battle Shout STR food Last edited by Skiace : 10/31/07 at 6:27 PM. | |||||||||||
| #4434 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | pembosa |
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Now another question. If you're a newb shaman who's just stumbled across this thread and you now see that all your weapon/stat choices to date are suboptimal, what would you do to correct the situation and in what order? Of course I'm talking about myself:
So, do these numbers/weights only really apply once I've gotten myself a decent 2.4-2.6 speed offhand weapon or is there an order to how I'd get myself back on the "right" path. I'm not necessarily looking for specific advice that'd only be valuable to myself, but rather more general advice to any newb shaman who's doing things "wrong" but want's to do things "right". I guess my thought process is sort of like this: Okay, I've fallen off the wagon. What's the 10-step process for getting back on again? | |||||||||||
| #4435 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
Absolute first thing to do: get appropriate speed weapons (2.6/2.6 greens if you need to) and put WF5/WF5 on both. This should be doable in 5 minutes of searching the auction house or a few days of heroic running/honor grinding.
Next thing to do, if you have the money: resocket all your gems. Consider this: a 6 strength gem is worth more AEP with the starting AEP values (without Kings) than an 8 hit gem, so if you've got 8 hit gems replace those with 6 strength gems at the -very- least. Next thing to do: chances are, if you're gearing yourself improperly, you're not taking full advantage of all the revered+ rep rewards and crafted items. For example, there are some blue leather shoulders from Kurenai revered that are pretty freakin' amazing till you can upgrade them with t4/leather Kara shoulders, and I'd venture a guess that most "newbie" enhancement shamans don't know about them. Edit: [Blackened Leather Spaulders] They're an upgrade for you, too, now that I've checked out your armory. Also, Kaliban's Class Gear Planner is a useful site for finding gear though there is no option for having it choose leather gear. Last edited by Xoya : 10/31/07 at 7:35 PM. | |||||||||||
| #4436 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Myul |
Hit and Crit can be equally for personal aep values, you should just check Yo's sim (or another one, linked in the beginning post).
Steps: 1. Read through posting #1 over and over again, print it and learn to love it. 2. Get everything enchanted properly. 3. Regem your gear to [Bold Living Ruby] for red sockets, [Sovereign Nightseye] for blue sockets and [Inscribed Noble Topaz] for yellow sockets. 4. Farm mats for [Runic Hammer]. 5. Get an arena 5on5 (leecher) team and run with it for 6-7 weeks and receive your [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] or [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]. 6. Farm as much [Badge of Justice] (200 possible) for patch 2.3 and the new loot. 7. Get another MG Weapon. 8. Become #1 in epeen meters. 9. ???? 10. You are beloved, rich and famous now. Edit: You can buy 2 very (2.8 speed) slow weapons in Netherstorm (Stormspire or Eco-Dome.., can't remember exatly) and run some tests versus the blasted lands mobs and compare it to you gear, especially the offhand could be better for the moment. [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] isn't that bad and should do it for the moment. Note: BBWP and [The Decapitator] will become one-hand weapons with the next patch, so don't throw them away! | |||||||||||
| #4437 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | pembosa |
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| #4438 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Xoya |
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The extra dps on the mainhand will compensate for the lack of slower speed in this case if you pick up one of those 2.6/2.7 offhands. | |||||||||||
| #4439 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | pembosa |
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| #4440 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ◊ Malan |
Skiace - you need to run the sim more than once. Shaman DPS is streaky and prone to silly luck driven RNG inflation/deflation of numbers. Run it 5-6 times. See if any of the AEP are outliers. Discard the outliers, average the ones that are pretty close in value, and use those.
As an example I did exactly this today. (While at work... supposedly while doing "work") I ran the sim 5 times at 1000 hours and got some pretty crazy outliers for a few values. Then I ran it 5 more times at 5000 hours each and got 4 sets that were very close to the 1000 hours numbers, so I took those 4 and averaged them. My very first run of the sim was a huge outlier though, it had some really wonky values. ![]()
I'd also add that you really need to keep in mind that the "baseline" AEP stats were generated from a model that had around 2500 AP, 30% Crit, some value of Hit that I can't remember. Your stats aren't exactly there, so you're going to differ. Last edited by Malan : 10/31/07 at 10:52 PM. | |||||||||||
| #4441 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | panny |
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![]() FinalDPS = (CritRate * OriginalDPS * 2 * REDmultiplier) + [1 - (CritRate + DodgeRate + MissRate + ParryRate) ] * OriginalDPS ![]() DPSwithCrits = (CritRate * OriginalDPS * 2) + [1 - (CritRate + DodgeRate + MissRate + ParryRate) ] * OriginalDPS ![]() FinalDps - DPSwithCrits = RED contribution | |||||||||||
| #4442 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Skiace |
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I know the kings issue is bad, so that could be the issue (though it would surprise me). As for the baseline stats compared to mine, I have a around 2700ap/32% crit raid buffed; I was under the impression that the sim values are to be unbuffed (except kings). edit: Running another 5 tests at 4000 without kings. If I get more typical numbers I'll just forget about it. edit2: Results below ![]() Last edited by Skiace : 11/01/07 at 1:25 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4443 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Mengus |
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Block Glancing Blow And it is in a specific order, namely: Miss Dodge Parry Glancing Blow (only players and pets versus mobs) Block Critical ordinary hit This of course is for white damage, as the aforementioned 2 roll system may or may not exist for yellow damage. | |||||||||||
| #4444 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Patonus |
Ok, I have this weird conflict. Using the weapon AEP scoring system...
Netherbane gives Total OH AEP = 447.05 Yet my newly acquired Rising Tide gives Total OH AEP = 444.14 So...does this mean that I should just clearly continue using Netherbane over Rising Tide? | |||||||||||
| #4445 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Mengus |
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Last edited by Mengus : 11/01/07 at 3:17 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4446 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Kyrious |
200 is the current cap for badges per stack. I assume it's the global cap
Last edited by Kyrious : 11/01/07 at 5:30 AM. Reason: lolresearch | |||||||||||
| #4447 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | daveqstone |
WF and Hit
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but i DO NOT understand why WF does not suffer the miss rate. You can get WF when you miss ? I doubt that , when i was at 62lvl i start to skill 2h axe (blood furnace drop). I had about 170 2h axe rating so i had a LOT of misses , i didnt get any WF proc at the miss hit. | |||||||||||
| #4448 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
This was answered somewhere on the last page or 2... Sigh.
Anyway, no Windfury can't proc off a miss. But due to the Windfury mechanics and procrate you'll never have Windfury on cooldown for longer than a few seconds. That's why Hit isn't THAT important. | |||||||||||
| #4449 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Nisall |
He means the following (I think)
I know it won't happen due to talents, but lets say you have less than +9% hit. Since you aren't hit capped for special attacks it is possible the WF swings will miss eventhough the white swing that procced it hit. So he is saying is that WF is a special (yellow) attack and therefore only has a 9% hit cap instead of the 28% dualwield white miss chance. | |||||||||||
| #4450 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | LazyJoe |
First you never miss with stormstrike even with 0 +hit, which is a significant part of your total hits (around 16% with 2.6 weapons).
Next, as it has been said many times, you spend a lot of time inside the WF cooldown, and so most of your miss happen during the cooldown. Increasing your hit rate will have an effect to your windfury procs indeed, but it will be a minimal one, in fact you will mostly increase your number of hits inside the cooldown without increasing your number of windfury procs. You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate). Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 6:55 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4451 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | LazyJoe |
First you never miss with stormstrike even with 0 +hit, which is a significant part of your total hits (around 16% with 2.6 weapons).
Next, as it has been said many times, you spend a lot of time inside the WF cooldown, and so most of your miss happen during the cooldown. Increasing your hit rate will have an effect to your windfury procs indeed, but it will be a minimal one, in fact you will mostly increase your number of hits inside the cooldown without increasing your number of windfury procs. You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate). Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 7:55 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4452 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | daveqstone |
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Hit maybe isnt THAT important , but with just +9% from talents you have base 17% miss rate. 21% agains a boss. At every fifth atack you have no chance WF proc , with low or none haste ratings it is a lot IMO. What i want to say that in the Theorycraft is written that hit rating changes only 45-50% of our damage (white attacks , +9% hit from talents). I say hit rating also lowers the time between WF procs. With high haste rating and crit chance this influence is very low , but without haste it has some kind of importance, becose i want my WF as often as possible. | |||||||||||
| #4453 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Pitbuller |
AEP difference is pretty small only 3. And this whole weapon AEP is pretty new threory. I personally use 8.48 mh Wdps AEP and 4.24 oh Wdps AEP. If you use those Rising tide > Netherbane. But my suggest is put your Rising tide to mainhand then choose Merciless gladiator pummeler or Netherbane to OH. Then just wait/hope that Syphon of the Nathrezim drop.
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| #4454 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | daveqstone |
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Wait , that would be interessing adon. Can anyone do this ? Adon that will show how much % of attacks you miss while the WF cooldown is ON and how much % while is OFF | |||||||||||
| #4455 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Disquette |
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| #4456 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | LazyJoe |
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Against a same level opponent you have 6% miss, against a lvl 73 or boss it is 9%. So when dual wielding it is 25% and 28% respectively (this has been discussed and proved some time ago in another thread). So with 9% from talents you have 19% miss against a boss. Anyway if you use Yo's simulator it doesn't speculate on the value of hit, it just simulates a (long) fight, so the benefit of hits in WF procs is already taken into account when the AEP is calculated. And all the results are showing hit is the less valuable stat for us (for example, 1% crit has generally the same AEP value as 1,5% to 2% hit). Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 8:47 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4457 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | vorda |
I'm questioning the use of this topic at the moment. More then half of the posts on the last 10+ (yes, I pulled this number out my ass but I'm sure more people here share the feelings) is from new posters comming here questioning our hit rating results or just being plain ignorant in general.
Maybe some special "stop annoying everyone with your feelings/questions about hit rating/etc" moderation might be needed for this topic? | |||||||||||
| #4458 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
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Increasing your Hit does NOT reduce your WF "proc rate". Its going to be 36% when DW or 20% otherwise, no matter what your +hit is. Increasing your hit changes the % of your total damage that WF will equate to, and that's all. The proc rate is, with some variation from the RNG, fairly constant. The amount of absurd logic over the past 4 pages (2 days of posts) is astounding. And I agree with the poster above me. Stop bothering us with posts that say "well I feel like hit is more important." We don't care what you feel. If you don't want to accept the mathematics of the situation, or the simulated combat results that back up our findings, and even the empirical results from WWS parses, then don't. Go on your merry way, but stop posting about about it. Last edited by Malan : 11/01/07 at 9:28 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4459 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | LazyJoe |
Well sorry i simplified a bit too much on this sentence
![]() But well, if you only have the 9% hit from talent stormstrike never misses even on a boss, but still can be parried, dodged or blocked (as well as the normal hits). The discussion is about hits proccing WF, so i was only taking into account the normal hits, not the windfury procs. If you consider hitting with always flurried 2.6 weapons (so 2.0 between hits) and no misses, SS is exactly 16,6666....% of your total hits (parries, dodges or blocks don't affect this because you have the same amount in white and yellow attacks). If you are not hit capped, SS is an even bigger part of your hits, it comes around 20% with ~100 hit. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that a significant part of our windfury are coming from stromstrike, and increasing hit will never ever increase those procs, this is one of the facts that makes hit less important for WF procs. Sorry again, I was speaking about the global proc rate, I mean we all know that WF has a 20% or 36% proc rate on eligible hits, but the hidden cooldown and weapon speed, as well as your hit rating affect the real proc rate. We all know that using slow weapons leads to a better global proc rate. The same way, increasing your hit leads to a somewhat worse global proc rate because you will get more normal hits while gaining few WF procs. Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 9:48 AM. | |||||||||||
| #4460 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Krom[Fenris] |
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's looking as though after 2.3 enchant setup will ideally be executioner/mongoose. Assuming an RT/syphon MH/OH combo, would you put the executioner on the MH?
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| #4461 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
There's no evidence that either hand affects the proc rate, so it really doesn't matter. You can put it on either hand.
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| #4462 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Patonus |
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The issue I have with that is that the Merciless Weapon is ALSO more AEP than Rising Tide in the MH. Looks as if RT is worthless! | |||||||||||
| #4463 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
Time to hand out moderation privileges to Malan just for this thread!
About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it? | |||||||||||
| #4464 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Kombinat |
Generally accepted thinking is that an enhancement shaman's DPS is made up, in rough numbers, of about 40% both white damage and windfury, with shocks and stormstrike taking up the last 20%, 10% each.
Generally accepted spec is to include all the +hit talents, for 9% hit in total. This hit caps, and then some, both windfury and stormstrike. You'll still get blocks, glancings, etc, but no misses. So, 50% as a rough number is hit capped without any more + hit from gear. Given the existence of the 3 second WF cooldown, +hit loses any real relevance. It doesn't scale as well as crit, and hitting more often isn't all that helpful if WF is on CD. Hit effects 40% of your dps, where crit and AP effect 90%. (Figures mentioned in this post are rough, vague recollections based on my reading this thread front to back several times. Apologies for their lack of mathematical concreteness) Last edited by Kombinat : 11/01/07 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Punctuation. I hate my OCD. | |||||||||||
| #4465 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
Rob worked it out at some point in this thread I think, or maybe someone linked it from another thread, I forget which. I believe that the ballpark figure was that Mongoose and Executioner basically provide the same DPS increase.
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| #4466 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
Yeah I saw that, figured maybe by now more people had run some tests on the PTR. Armor Penetration is nice I guess, but it's damn pretty seeying 50%+ crit on your character tab :P
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| #4467 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Katherine |
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[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers | |||||||||||
| #4468 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Illundai |
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| #4469 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | drats |
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AEP is a guideline, not law. Please use common sense when making judgments about weapon upgrades. | |||||||||||
| #4470 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
I just did a quick calc of Rising Tide for MH and OH. MH shows it better than Arena S2 weapons at 978.2 AEP vs 962 AEP, OH shows it about even with Netherbane for the OH at 444.1 vs 447 AEP. Conclusion - if you have Rising Tide and Netherbane, use RT in the MH.
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| #4471 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Tsalrioth |
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I would put mongoose on your MH, executioner on OH. This is solely for the reason that if you have to put on a shield, you want your wep in the Mh to have mongoose as it gives a slight bit more survivability then executioner. | |||||||||||
| #4472 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Patonus |
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| #4473 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
No, he was right. Look up 2 posts where I did the calculations myself.
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| #4474 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | lorka |
Quite hard to define the real bonus of Executionner no ? As if i've understood well (and thinking of how armor works) the more you have armor penetration the more you hit harder, so with the coming of new items with armor penetration (in ZA and Arena) we would be able to have a good amount of passive armor penetration, dealing more damages when execuionner proc than someone without any passive armor penetration proccing it ? To my mind executionner can be definetely better than moongoose at some point of passive armor penetration
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| #4475 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | drats |
Actually, I goofed on the high end damage. RT has a higher bottom end dps (208 compared to MGC 177), but a lower top end (313 vs 330). I made the mistake of thinking a higher dps weapon of the same speed would have a higher bottom and top for damage. Sorry, common sense failed me that time.
But my point of weapon dps still stands, it would takes a decent amount of stats to make up for a 3 point dps difference for a MH. For an offhand the difference is less clear. | |||||||||||
| #4476 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | pilger81 |
I have an off topic problem.
During today i arrived at page 60 reading the thread. Is there any possibility to delete redundant posts? There are a bunch of double questions(including mine from yesterday ) it is really annoying to read it.But if I avoid reading it all there will be even more doubleposts. To begin all posts I did the last days(including this one) could be deleted without loosing anything. Make the post to 20 sites again.... I and i think most of us would appreciate this. | |||||||||||
| #4477 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | drats |
I'm pretty sure all of this information will be transferred to a wiki at some point in the near future. Malan has hinted at it multiple times.
Edit: After reading the OP, you can probably just read the last 10-20 pages, then use the search feature to answer most questions. | |||||||||||
| #4478 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
Boethius is getting some new EJ server stuff set up and then hopefully we'll see the wiki open soon. The wiki will need more fine tuning - I didn't just copy/paste, I took it as a good time to rewrite a lot of stuff and add better documentation. I stopped updating it a few weeks ago though when 2.3 changes started rolling in, it was too much work keeping 2 pages simultaneously updated that each use different formating tags.
Are there any major tidbits of info that I have not updated the OP with? I suppose a real FAQ section might at some point be ok for some of the more minor questions, but I think that for the most part every question you could ask can be reasonably inferred from the info available. | |||||||||||
| #4479 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Mengus | ||||||||||||
| #4480 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | pilger81 |
So then because I have another question after not found it with search function.
(i am sure it ws mentioned beforebut still i don't find it...) My idea is that with every haste rating I will have to give +hit a higher rating?! Say 50% is white damage. With +haste only white damage will be raised so after that we'll have 55% white damage. Do I have to give +hit a 10% higher rating then? Any numbercrunching done for this problem yet? | |||||||||||
| #4481 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
Don't try to manually adjust your stat weights, if thats what you mean.
But yes that's kind of the function between Haste and Hit - the more haste you get the more valuable the extra Hit Rating will become. | |||||||||||
| #4482 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | Aximous |
I noticed on ptr that expertise doesn't seem to scale the same way as hit rating between points and ratings. Hit rating is 15.8 rating=1% hit while according to the character sheet 5 expertise is 1 point of expertise wich is 0.25% dodge and parry reduction so 20 expertise rating would be 1% reduction in parry and dodge. I think that should twist the calculations a bit.
Proof screenshot: ![]() This was the formula that Rob made ![]() Expertise AEP = HIT AEP * (White % + Yellow %)/White % ![]() Expertise AEP = (HIT AEP * 15.8 )/20* (White % + Yellow %)/White % Last edited by Aximous : 11/01/07 at 5:49 PM. | |||||||||||
| #4483 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
As I understand it, 15.8 expertise rating = 4 expertise = -1% dodge. 10 expertise rating, in your example, is equivalent to 2.53 expertise, which is rounded down to 2 expertise. So you're right that there are some discrepancies (because expertise rounds) but multiplying by 15.8/20 isn't a correct way to deal with those.
Technically, you need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 15.8, take the floor, and multiply by 15.8 again, just to convert it into hit AEP. This gives us a really nasty problem, which is that expertise rating is not only non-linear in AEP, it's not even contiguous: a jump of one expertise rating may have 0 AEP (example: we go from 14 expertise rating to 15 expertise rating) while a jump of two expertise rating at the same point may have AEP equivalent to about 4/15.8*hit (we go from 14 expertise rating to 16 and thus 0.75% dodge reduction to 1.00% dodge reduction). The best way, IMO, to value items at this point, is to use the provided formula. Although, I'll admit I haven't considered the impact that crits/glances will have on that, but I don't think it's been conclusively proven the mechanic by which expertise works (i.e. are dodges converted to hits, or are dodges removed from the attack table? in the former scenario, crits/(crits+hits) decreases but in the latter scenario, crits/(crits+hits) remains constant.) Last edited by Rob : 11/01/07 at 5:58 PM. | |||||||||||
| #4484 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Aximous |
Why I multiplied it by 15.8/20 is because I thought that 20 rating turns into 1% but it seems I forgot about rounding
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| #4485 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Weem |
Loot comparison spreadsheets
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.
I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them. Files here: http://hosted.filefront.com/bemory23 There are four different spreadsheets. "Pre-raid" with default values from the first page for entry raid shaman. "Low Raid" with default values from the first page. "Mid Raid" with default values being my current values. "High Raid" with default values belonging to Sebudai's from one of his posts: All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .Last edited by Weem : 11/03/07 at 6:02 PM. Reason: Fixed links again | |||||||||||
| #4486 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
I have updated the section on Weapon Expertise with Rob's explanation above.
It seems I broke the Pawn string in the OP, I tried importing that last night and Pawn kept bitching that it didn't recognize it. Anyone see a glaring mistake? Weem, checking those out now, might include them in the OP. Did you include all the new 2.3 items? | |||||||||||
| #4487 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | lorka |
Thanks for your job Weem it's great ! i hope you'll add S3 Arena gear and other 2.3 items soon, 'cause i don't really understand how to add them by myself
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| #4488 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Pitbuller |
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![]() Sockets Blue Socket Red Socket Yellow Socket Meta Socket Thottbot dont count socket bonus like lootzor does but I prefer thottbot. | |||||||||||
| #4489 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Irukandji |
Yo's Simulator
Great Thread - thanks
I am having trouble with getting Yo's Simulator to work. I have the latest edition of java installed and have tried it on both WinXP pro / KDE 3.5 in mozilla, ie, konqueror - but it was working for me a few weeks ago, is anyone else having a similar issue? I also get a small java popup window in the corner from it that links to a russian website - its not malware or anything on my computer, its definitely from the applet. Sorry to pollute the thread, i just thought other people may be having the same issues. | |||||||||||
| #4490 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Glayde |
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I thought the thottbot item scoring lets you assign scores to sockets, I use the thottbot sorting to glance at gear by slot. | |||||||||||
| #4491 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Donjo |
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| #4492 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Malan |
He made one that says Pre-Raid right in that post.
Guys Lootzor works perfectly fine for everything until you're in T6 content. Yah the site isnt being updated but unless you need to view things with -Armor or Haste on it, it works fine. | |||||||||||
| #4493 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Weem |
Malan: I do have all the 2.3 items unless I accidentally missed an item (I wouldn't put it passed me to do so).
Lorka: I hadn't intended to included the S3 items. However, upon further review they aren't too far off from what one would have going into Mid Raid content so I'll put them there. Glayde/Pitbuller: I don't mess with Thottbot as I never liked the way it worked. The thing with sockets is second-hand knowledge. At one point I don't think it did include sockets which it seems is no longer the case. And Malan is right about Lootzor. It does work fine unless your item will have expertise, haste or ignore armor. | |||||||||||
| #4494 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Bubbahoof |
Thanks for all the great information in this thread.
I have never been all that happy with Lootzor because it always puts BOP crafted items in the list which require a profession I don't have. Is the link for the Mid Raid xls sheet posted by Weem working correctly? Whenever I try to use it, I get thrown back to the main filefront.com page. The low raid .xls link forks fine for me. | |||||||||||
| #4495 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 Edited onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Rob |
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I think the issue is/was inconsistency in including socket bonuses, and that it has bugged values for certain items (e.g. Skyshatter gloves score lower than Cataclysm somehow and the issue isn't with my scoring parameters). I'm using Thottbot, but with a firm eye towards "sanity checking" the numbers. I really wish Wowhead would integrate a tool like this, since everyone else seems to be getting it wrong somehow. Last edited by Rob : 11/02/07 at 5:56 PM. | |||||||||||
| #4496 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | lorka |
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altought i hope to see those items in high raid too, as compared to some pve items they can make a good alternative. Anyway don't bother if it's too much work i can work with two different sheets if i have to | |||||||||||
| #4497 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Weem |
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| #4498 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | ♦ Igniter |
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| #4499 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Beowolf |
Got a semi-off topic for you brainiacs with the Simulators. According to the entry post here, SS and WF are both not normalized. They are also on a 3 second cooldown. Would our DPS be better or worse if they removed the 3 second CD, but normalized the SS and Windfury attacks?
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| #4500 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.2.3 | Oprahwinfury |
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( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater/Tornhoof)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1, ArmorPenetration=0.25 ) This should work ![]() | |||||||||||
| #4751 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Nemaa | ||||||||||||
| #4752 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bubbahoof |
A question about totem threat -
Flame totems generate their own threat - mobs attack the searing totem instead of the shaman casting it. How about healing stream totem? Does the shaman or the totem get extra threat for the healing done? With the new + to spell damage, I'm thinking it might be useful to drop healing stream totem in the future, but I wonder how that should effect my threat. I am very excited about the 30% threat reduction coming, so I'm hesitant to add new sources of threat when I am about to finally stop being threat capped. | |||||||||||
| #4753 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ilmatar |
Bubba: I did some non-conclusive testing and my feeling was, after it, that it does not effect my TPS. My threat is very spikey anyway, and with no +heal the totem was pretty weak. (This is why I say it's non-conclusive)
Edit: Actually, I have used it with a bunch of +heal. When we were doing some Karazan farming runs to gear some of our younglings, I was trying to see how much I could get it to tick for, so I equipped heal gear, popped ZG trinket (best trinket evar) and dropped the totem. It was ticking for >100 and I saw no noticeable threat increase for the fights. | |||||||||||
| #4754 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
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| #4755 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Durigen |
There's alot of talk about Totem Twisting. It's a very powerful tool that I have been starting to ween myself off of. The reasons are based around the simple statement that is now on the first page of this guide.
Twisting has it's days numbered. The Dev's are aware of it, and plan to be taking steps to end it. If that is the case, then I would prefer not to supernaturally inflate raid performance only to have it come down . Of course my raid understands this point and agrees. But if the crutch is going to be yanked out from under ya, gotta start learning to walk without. On a seperate note; I see that Weapon Expertise is being given a series of values. Aren't those values based entirely on attacking your opponent from the front? Chances of attacks being parried from behind is zero. Am I correct? | |||||||||||
| #4756 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | morgenday |
hiyas, i use enhancer to calculate my AEP in game, just updated it today on the 13th before the patch, although i don't think it takes the new armor ignoring stat into account. if anyone knows just curious if i have to calculate that manually or if the mod does it for me. thanks!
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| #4757 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ilmatar |
It reduces dodge/parry/block. Mobs can dodge, even from the back. You can take a look at WWS parses to observe this too. (I could be wrong, but I believe it's a 5% chance to dodge, 360 degrees)
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| #4758 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Pitbuller |
Expertise reduces dodge and parry . Parry is frontal only. Boss mobs have 5.4% dodge and 5.4% or higher parry.
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| #4759 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Unaz |
Welp, started looking at my talent builds today so I know what to spec tonight, and I'm leaning towards this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I hate the less then 50% filled talents though. I currently run with 5 points in concussion, as the alternatives don't seem to help much in a raid environment. The alternatives usually being totemic focus/anticipation/imp LS. Here's an elemental hybrid option: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft It's pretty close for me, although I'm still fairly sure the 3% hit from resto will still have it beat by a noticeable margin. The utility of 1 more second off shocks is handy, and possibly on par with the increased totem range. (I view the first 8 points in resto as a waste anyway, so the expensive shock talents come out to a wash in that regard) If elemental had a low tier shock crit option (maybe instead of concussion), Elemental Devastation would be a lot more viable. ![]() | |||||||||||
| #4760 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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I hardly consider twsiting a crutch, it's probably the easiest thing that you can do in a raid. It takes little to no attentiveness(hey look a purple bar), and while the "ficksing" of having wf/goa or wf/ta out at the same time will result in a net loss of raid dps I see zero reason to not abuse the system while you can. As far as the ele/resto subbing, it will be totally playstyle/raid specific. I don't ever see myself putting less than 14 in resto, but I can only think of a handful of times(including progression) where I have ankhd. The only times I really die are when the shit hits the fan and ankhing would be pointless. If you pay attention to threat, your hp, your surroundings, and your potion/healthstone/bandage cooldown survival should be a nonissue making imp reincarnate useless.(imo!) Last edited by rava : 11/13/07 at 3:51 PM. Reason: my ecks key is broken | |||||||||||
| #4761 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ultima88 |
Shocks
Hi all,
I realize the ideal shock rotation is the fs/es, but I am running into an issue. My guild leader (an elemental shaman, also reads this thread frequently, so may in fact read this) has told me that I cannot use Flame Shock. It takes up a debuff slot that he believes is more valuable for another class. Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock. Thanks in advance. | |||||||||||
| #4762 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Unaz |
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There's no reason to listen to bullshit about pushing off buffs if you aren't near the cap at the time anyway. | |||||||||||
| #4763 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Monkeysnarf |
Shouldn't the argument around elemental/enhance versus enhance/resto revolve around the 5 second CD on shocks versus the +3 hit, more than anything else? Sure the +5% increase in shock damage in nice... I guess. The 10% decrease in mana cost is okay, maybe less important now in 2.3, but the 5 second CD is an increase of 20% in the amount of shocks you can cast. If + melee hit is a non issue since you can get all you need from gear and +6% from the talent. Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
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| #4764 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Grogimer |
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| #4765 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
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I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement. Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either. It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto. Last edited by Malan : 11/13/07 at 6:01 PM. | |||||||||||
| #4766 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
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| #4767 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Monkeysnarf |
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50% white 30% WF 10% shocks 10% SS 1% Romeo Poison Now this was before I read the first page here. I had 216'ish +hit and only +6% from talents. (I need to do some testing and then I'm sure I'll agree with everyone else.) It's just that I read from here that +hit basically is the last stat to work on and then I read that this patch is all about increasing shock damage. | |||||||||||
| #4768 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | tokageroh |
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| #4769 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Xaanix |
I'm curious if there are any work/predictions on high raid stat weights which are sadly absent from the OP. In eyeballing the changes from low raid to mid raid ratings, it appears like haste rating became significantly more valuable than before.
Of all the gear that gives high raid exclusive stats (armor pen, haste), it appears that only fists of mukoa will actually outshine other high raid alternatives with normal stats like agi/crit/hit/ap. I'm also interested to know how AP/Str will be weighted now that 2.3 is live. My intuition tells me that crit will be valuable early on, but once you have around 30% crit unbuffed, you'd probably want to favor AP a bit more because of the boost in shock/totem damage. Based on this intuition, I intend to replace my low end crit based trinkets with AP related trinkets in the near future. Last edited by Xaanix : 11/13/07 at 10:49 PM. | |||||||||||
| #4770 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ilmatar |
An alternate look at the benefit of Elemental Devastation:
(Source, values for level 70) 1% hit = 15.76 hit rating 1% crit = 22.08 crit rating 3% hit = 47.28 hit rating 3% crit = 66.24 crit rating Using the EP numbers from the first post (~T5+): 3% hit = 66.192 EP 3% crit = 132.48 EP Without doing any further math it should be clear, at this point, that it is not going to work-out in favor of Elemental Devastation. In order to get the 3% crit for 10 seconds, you have to crit with a shock. You will get 12 shocks per minute, with Concussion. Your base spell crit chance is 5%. (Most likely it will not be noticeably more than that with int, so lets leave it at 5%) This puts Elemental Devastation at 0.6ppm, best case, and totally ignores the effects of spell-misses. 132.48 EP * 0.6ppm * 1/6 (10sec on buff) = 13.248 EP This is abysmal. Even ignoring n00b errors, which I'm sure I made in those calculations, it should be clear that Elemental Devastation is not a good investment of spec points. | |||||||||||
| #4771 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | LionsFist |
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The 5 second shocks and 5% damage boost increase your shock DPS by 40%. 5 second shocks allow a 4 shock/20 seconds repeatable attack sequence with Stormstrike (ie. [in format time/spell] 0/SS, 1.5/FlaS, 6.5/ES, 10/SS, 11.5/FlaS, 16.5/ES, 20/SS, repeat] With 6 second shocks, the rotation goes as follows: (0/SS, 1.5/FlaS, 7.5/ES, 10/SS, 13.5 FlaS, 20/SS] as the last shock would slow your SS rotation. (in general, my SS damage is higher or close to equal to my shock damage, so I would put SS as a more important rotation to keep up) As such, with 6 second shocks, you only get 3 shocks every 20 seconds, on a repeatable attack sequence... This added to the fact that you are getting 5% extra damage on all shocks means that you're getting the benefit of (105+105+105+105/100+100+100) = 1.4 = 40% extra damage. Now it would depending on whether your shocks benefit you for more than 7.5% of your total DPS, and also would obviously have a lower effect on people who hold their SS's for when WF is off the cooldown. Yet again, that in itself brings about it's own mixed benefits/losses... And if looking at a pure comparison of the two specs, then the small static extra bonus of ~10 DPS on searing totem is there too :P | |||||||||||
| #4772 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
If someone wants to do the finger work of producing an Average T6 AP/Crit/Hit/Weapons set and then run a *lot* of yo's sim against those numbers then we can get some EP values for it. Otherwise, I'm content that at the high end a shaman can figure it out on their own.
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| #4773 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Complete |
Best Shaman PVE Max DPS build in 2.3??
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| #4774 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Monkeysnarf |
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Shocks = 10% dps so 20% increase = 1.2*.1 = .12 + 5% more damage = .126 or a 2.6% increase in damage. 3% more hit to 50% damage (assuming no diminishing returns because of too much +hit) = 1.5% more damage from white. 3% more hit to 10% shock damage = .3% more damage from shocks. It looks like 2.6% increase for better shocks versus 1.8% increase for more hit. Plus my comparison actually favors the +hit since I'm assuming my observed 10% from shocks. My shocks would go down without the 5 second CD. Plus I think it's going to be even more exaggerated with 2.3 when I'll get +525 to +825 bonus damage (depending on procs) from talents. | |||||||||||
| #4775 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
You know why your breakdown has 10% of damage coming from shocks? It's because you're already specced Elemental as your secondary tree.
In reality you're boosting your contribution from shocks from around 5% to around 10% by virtue of your current spec, which makes a comparison such as you're doing completely invalid. If you spec with 0 points in either elemental or restoration, you will not see 10% contribution from shocks. | |||||||||||
| #4851 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Aegospotami |
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Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period. And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power. So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription. And because we keep seeing the +Hit question popping up, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed a DPS increase when changing from your recommendation (prioritizing only +Hit from talents) and switching to a few pieces of gear that add +Hit. There is no question that +Hit in the 200-range is excessive, but there is every indication that going from around 70-80 +Hit to the 120 - 130 range will lead to a DPS increase. You've helped a lot of Enhancement Shaman players with your theorycrafting, but it's pretty clear on this issue that, because you see yourself as the authority on these matters, you are reluctant to admit you're wrong. And there's no mistaking, you are wrong here. | |||||||||||
| #4852 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mbuzi |
@Aegospotami - not that Malan needs defending, but wow, just wow. Kings gives a 10% benefit to strength. Comparing inscriptions:
(34*1) + (16*x) = 17*2.2 x = Hit Rating x would have to equal a mere 0.2125 for them to be equal. No one rational here is suggesting hit rating is meaningless. In fact until you get very near the cap it's value will be > 0.2125 so this line of attack isn't very effective and demonstrates your lack of understanding about what EP is used for. | |||||||||||
| #4853 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Krom[Fenris] |
Maybe I'm missing an obvious reason as to why, but since the patch I've been noticing a strange bug. When I cast WF on my main hand weapon, a lot of the time my health drops 5%. I can't think why this would happen at all.
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| #4854 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Krish |
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NOBODY is saying that +hit is a bad stat. It is simply not as good as the other yellow-gem option, crit rating. I'm finding it hard to not just dismiss your argument as pure trolling, but 34 AP and 16 hit rating are better than 17 strength. If you think that hit rating affects the percentage of swings that will crit, you are just wrong. Look into attack tables, do some real research, and then come back here and post your apology. There are a large number of intelligent people here who have put a great deal of time into understanding exactly what's going on behind the scenes to influence DPS in a raid environment. All of us who have participated in and used the information in this forum have improved our raid DPS because of it. Take your anger and ignorance elsewhere. | |||||||||||
| #4855 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Stopokingme |
Anyone figured out how to turn of the bloody annoying Shamanistic Focus proc sound? It's driving me and the other melee mad :P
Mostly looking for a non intrusive method, a simple mod or something, or barring that, at least the name of the soundfile that plays every time, think it is the clear cast noise? | |||||||||||
| #4856 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Rob |
Hits cannot proc Critical Strikes. Period.
Stormstrike and Windfury will never miss with the hit from talents from a 3/44/14 build. Period. The OP already says that +34 AP and +17 hit is better than +17 STR and +17 INT. Period. So WTF is the rest of your worthless post trying to say? | |||||||||||
| #4857 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
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And let me clear up for you - I don't see myself as an "authority" on much of anything. Frequent readers of this thread know that I've eaten my words on several occasions and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that my math skills have taken a sharp nose dive since my last college course. I just happen to read this thread more than anyone else since I'm the one updating the info post. | |||||||||||
| #4858 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ultima88 |
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| #4859 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mbuzi |
The post immediately following the one where you asked the question had a good suggestion. Run a mod to track debuffs on the mob and assure your leader you will only flame shock when not near the limit. If you want to argue Flame Shock is a better debuff than something else well, that's another matter entirely.
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| #4860 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | david0925 |
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1.Hit isn't as good for Enh Shaman because you're already hit capped from talents, for your specials, namely Windfury and Stormstrike 2.Hit becomes increasingly better as your gear improves because hit is a percentage increase to your DPS. Therefore in T6 level gear of critical percentage and attack power, you'll see increase in dps at a faster rate. 3.Hit Pushes Miss off the combat table, crit pushes hit off. Hitting more won't make you crit more. While it is true that you may miss a hit that could've procced windfury (very bold assumption), but that still doesn't justify stacking hit at early gear level. In addition, there are some of us that NOTICED DPS difference from swapping from pure +hit to just AP and crit (I stacked 10 dawnstones before, so i definitely know the difference) And on the helm inscription, 6.8 AP < 14 hit rating | |||||||||||
| #4861 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | david0925 |
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If it is ticking for the least, and can push off important debuffs such as sunder armor, then don't use it. | |||||||||||
| #4862 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | seminarca |
It should also be said that gear with Hit Rating on it generally (key word there, generally) has a better spread of stats than gear that doesn't. Spending itemization points only on Str and Agi is going to result in overall lower amount of stats than if you were to spend the same itemization points on Str, Agi AND Hit. Swapping to gear that has Hit Rating on it will generally give you more overall stats, and result in a DPS increase.
I think the main impetus of this perceived "anti-Hit Rating" atmosphere is that early in TBC raiding, many Enhancement Shamans were using Hit Rating gems in gear whereas it's better to use straight Str or Str/Crit gems instead. No one is saying stay away from Hit Rating as if it were the pox. Just that when you have a choice to put an 8 Str gem or an 8 Hit Rating gem, the Str one is the better option. I don't know why AEP/EP equivalency systems are so frightening to people, I'm fairly poor at maths myself, and AEP/EP is just about one of the most intuitive ways to present information to such a dumbarse. Anyway, my commiserations to all the Shamans in this thread, I read it off and on here and there (level 65 Enhancement Shaman alt), I can only begin to imagine the horror of finding posts like that every day. | |||||||||||
| #4863 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mengus |
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i.e from an item level standpoint, 3 agi = 4 crit rating | |||||||||||
| #4864 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | BoinKlasik |
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| #4865 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Rob |
No, from an ilevel standpoint, 3 agi = 3 crit rating = 3 hit rating = 3 haste rating = 6 ap = 3 str (assuming that the item starts with 0 stat points invested).
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| #4866 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | benvegas |
Is it time for Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol II?
...195 pages of excellent info for us before getting a nice rework in 2.3. How about a fresh start Malan? | |||||||||||
| #4867 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
We've been waiting for Boe to get some time to get the Wiki going where all this will migrate. The wiki should then be used for people to post updates to, not discussion really, and then have normal threads out here to hash out all the details.
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| #4868 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | everwatch |
**EDITED**
Did some tests in BT using FT. I was an avid hoper that "theory" would be proven wrong. It was not. Tests in 25 man raid content showed FT as "viable" dps used on a fast OH weapon, however it was not superior to DW WF on 2 slow weapons. As some backup test data for those interested in Blasted Lands as a base example: 16.15% hit / 35% Flurry haste / 5.76% spell crit was used across the board using Rising Tide MH with WF. Merci Axe OH w/WF 2033 AP / 32.77% crit White: 64% WF: 35% 881.6dps in 6 min 320k dmg done Umbral Shiv OH w/FT 2077 AP / 32.57% crit White: 66% WF: 21% FT: 12% 844dps in 6 min 307k dmg done As Disquette well pointed out, WF benefits more from +AP than FT does because our spell dmg is a % of that AP. IE. WF scales better with AP. The only way to scale FT better is with an inordinate amount of haste. I used 5% Flurry haste, not quite 5% true haste, to lend some of that credit to FT. Due to the haste nerf and itemization I have to retract all ideas and questions I made to FT being an equal or better alternative. RL testing proved true the theories in here from what I did in BT and from what a very simple test in BL backed up. Thanks for the previous work on this matter Disquette, Malan, and others. Last edited by everwatch : 11/15/07 at 6:22 AM. Reason: tests showed I did math incorrectly | |||||||||||
| #4869 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | everwatch |
I swapped over to Ele/Enhancement spec since I was intrigued by it from an earlier post. 16/45/0 I've been Enhance/Reso since I started my toon, so this is a 1st time change and test.
In BT tonight I found my total shock damage to be 17% of my total damage done using FT in my OH. In 2.2 with Resto side spec it was only 9% of my total damage done using WF in my OH. I went to Blasted Lands and did a small test. I used a lil bit of human error, messing up GCD slightly here or there, to better simulate actual real %'s that would match my playstyle. 16.15% hit / 35% Flurry haste / 5.76% spell crit / 32.77% crit / 2033-2457AP (I should have taken off my relic/trinket due to procs) White: 46% WF: 30% SS: 8% ES: 8% FS: 8% 1374.9dps 654k dmg done 16% of my damage done was Shocks versus a mob with no real resists to speak of. In a raid environment my Shock damage is a higher %. Probabaly a longer test result would have helped. Plus I will Shock even when out of melee range for whatever reason in actual game play. So 17% of my total damage with 16/45/0 spec appears to be Shock damage in 2.3 I don't plan on respec'ing - I like my -10% dmg from fire/frost/nat too much. Is there any shaman who is Resto side spec'd who can tell me what % they're getting who has similar gear? T5/T6 equiv mix. | |||||||||||
| #4870 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Atren |
Blasted lands mobs are no longer reliable for hit mechanisms, NG is quite useless against them due to level difference. Any test on them would give great advantage for elemental.
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| #4871 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | jackiechen89 |
Instance not PVP??
i guess most of your work is done base on instance raid..
where i am mostly pvp player.... spend most of my time in Arena or battlegroud. so here is few point i don't agree with you.. please let me know what you think and correct me... Enchantment/elemental somehow i believe is much stronger than echchantment/rest in your point of view i agree +hit is important.. but however... during PVP ... player don't stand there for you to attack... most of time requireds you to run around... shock dispel. shock for slowing target inorder to able to hit them with your weapon... so i would like to ask your opinion on enchantment/elemental on PVP... where you spend 5point to reduce your casting time by 1sec along with new Metel Quickness... this talent become more powerful than used to be... also like to ask you... what about the play style on 2hand weapon with extremely slow speed like 3.6+ with alot of haste speed... how will that perform? | |||||||||||
| #4872 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Razzan |
Well about the new patch changes:My guild did a SSC keying run from some new guys so i went there as 2/45/14 with NG.First of all i must say the new totem is very good! On every second shock it was up and sometimes even during continuous shocks.The mental quickness is now a great talent no doubt about that since my shocks cost now 181mana (\o/),and with the new shamanistic focus i shock spam every 6 seconds.Also noticed sme really nice damage form shocks like 2563 crit 2456 etc whcih is lol :P.The thing i couldnt go well with and wont ever go well with is the stupid,irritating,noobish,WINDFURY AND STORMSTRIKE DODGES!I almost NEVER miss and im low on the meter because of that issue...53453534543 dodges.Gief expertise -.- ..This doesnt mean i look only to dps since i first make sure that i fulfill my support role appropriately..If we get expertise then our dps will go skyhigh,we will hit all the time :P.
P.S. 34AP+16hit is better than 17str+116int and Malan does a damn good job with advice for all enhancement shamans out there..Keep up the good work! Razzan | |||||||||||
| #4873 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Monkeysnarf |
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For instance, how are you going to model the 30% of AP that is now translated into spell damage, compared to AP that is translated into physical damage when you're not fighting a mob with the same armor, glancing and dodge of a raid boss? Shocks aren't mitigated by armor. So logically AP now has more value than it did prior to 2.3 because it increases 2 types of damage. Plus, crit will have more value for longer fights where mana might become an issue, to keep up the 60% reduced mana cost. Of course crit will then have a different “ideal value” depending on if you have 5 or 6 second shocks. (Probably doesn’t matter if you twist though.) | |||||||||||
| #4874 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Shabadu |
After spending last night in the back half of BT, I can say without a doubt: This patch is awesome. If the only change we got was the Shamanistic rage -30% damage, I'd be a happy clam. In a trash situation, being able to become a fury warrior on demand makes for a much more aggressive play style and I love it. Taking damage off Veras's Deadly Poison, Shahraz's beams, Reliquary's auras, etc was lovely.
But, I think the biggest difference wasn't in any of our changes, but rather in the expertise change for tanks. I went from having to hold back significantly on council using the Vashj trinket to going full bore with shocks/haste pots etc and only hitting 90% of tank threat. Teron especially used to be bad for threat, but between new spirit weapons and expertise, I only came close during lust/haste/drums. Here's Teron through Illidan +comedy DST lottery on Gruul. Shabadu - WWS | |||||||||||
| #4875 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
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| #4901 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Lucentia |
Weird... last night I didn't hear anything when Shamanistic Focus was going off... I am sure that now that i am aware that there should be a sound, I will hear it and be just as annoyed as everyone else.
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| #4902 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Sufferings |
Its pretty bad...I have my game sounds done kinda low, but I know other melee in guild were complaining about it like crazy on Tuesday night in BT, lol. Hopefully they just take out the sound and not just nerf the spell.
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| #4903 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Igniter |
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Threat is still a factor, on nearly every fight, at least for me. My gear is pretty average at best for a 9/9 guild, and I have to cyclone WF/TA and almost always have to hold back a ton on Teron/RoS/BB. | |||||||||||
| #4904 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Shabadu |
RoS and Gurtogg I had significant threat issues, but that's just about it anymore.
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| #4905 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | BoinKlasik |
best thing is my raid seems to hear it more than I do.
"Yo, Amy stop critting so much" "That, my friends, is the sound of mana efficiency!" gotta agree w/ the SR change hype, given how slowly I run out of mana now, it is now much more up to me when I use SR, I am also glad to hear it works on Council trash l5 beam, i was hoping to test it yesterday but we haven't gotten to council this week due to our own stupidity on bosses this reset. edit: ugh @ Bloodboil. To prevent having to worry about the threat cap and instead worry about stuff like the breath I simply dont do ANYTHING before the first fel rage phase, that tends to be a big enough lead for me to at least only melee during all other non fel rage phases, its annoying but I have to worry less. | |||||||||||
| #4906 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Veritas17 |
Could someone here critique my gear/spec for me? (Edit: Since the new talent rework, and everyone has been going back and forth on if its good or not to pick up a few of the new things over, blah whatever if you HAVE TIME AND ARE BORED please take a peek) I'm trying to find out what are some things I can pick up that don't require a 25 man because im not always pulled in for our raids.
Things I know i'm lacking - neck/mainhand upgraded(it was HELL to find a heroic group pre-2.3) the totem from heroic MT and some boots. Other than that I also wanted to know about when to start dpsing. My tank is damn good at getting aggro etc. but i'm so paranoid about grabbing aggro I'm hesitant to hit things quickly like everyone else does. Could someone out there help me out? The link to my shaman's gear is here http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=Darkenlight Thanks for your time folks i'm just trying to not suck. Last edited by Veritas17 : 11/15/07 at 5:28 PM. | |||||||||||
| #4907 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Rapparee |
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I'm not going to look at your armory and just say, if you can't raid you must: Go to heroic instances: There are many good items that drop in heroics. Go to heroic instances: There are badges that drop in heroics with which one can buy some good gear. Get into battlegrounds: There are many reasonably decent items from the honor vendors. Get into rated arena matches: There are several great items from arena vendors. Get on Ebay: On any given day there is probably a character of the type you want in better gear posted for auction. | |||||||||||
| #4908 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
Anticipation doesn't need to be reworked; it's a great talent for PvP builds.
Toughness, on the other hand, is just weird. 5 talent points for like 3% DR? | |||||||||||
| #4909 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Veritas17 |
Yeah apparently you can't read either, I already said that getting into heroics was problematic at best on my server.
And there are a lot of new things that JUST came out in ZA and rep rewards that I haven't been able to keep track of so a lot of that info on the first page needs updated. I guess I should of stated that. Plus, I was curious about having expertise since that also wasn't on the first page from when I had been reading up on it. Thanks tho? | |||||||||||
| #4910 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan | ||||||||||||
| #4911 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Veritas17 |
Thanks Malan.
That comment wasn't a slight on you but the sims i've got and what not don't show the new things on my gear like how this expertise will effect my combat and a couple other things I was just trying to get some convo going :/ Have fun with your trip. | |||||||||||
| #4912 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | justinr |
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Expertise is explained on the first page. Look up ZA gear on something like wowhead and compare it yourself. They provide the numbers for doing so on the first post as well. | |||||||||||
| #4913 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Veritas17 |
On this posts first page?
Maybe its my browser then as I had firefox crash and it's still got the same info from a couple weeks ago so I thought it wasn't updated :/ | |||||||||||
| #4914 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Sufferings |
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| #4915 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Veritas17 |
Nope, definitely don't want someone else doing math for me but like I said, the first page didn't update for me on this machine for whatever reason. Firefox crashed and when it restarted things haven't changed for this first thread as I have it in a different window.
Alright appreciate it i'll have to go look it up on my fiance`s machine since this one still isn't updating it. | |||||||||||
| #4916 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ugbutz |
Hey guys. I've been following this thread since the beginning, really great help for the understanding of shamans class mechanics.
We were extremly unlucky with t5/t6 tokens for a long time so i'm still wearing my t4 helmet. ![]() Since we downed illidan 1 month ago im hoping to get my hands on Cursed Vision of Sargeras and so passing for the t6 tokens. Today Zul'jin dropped Grimgrin Faceguard, nobody else wanted to take it so i picked it up. Now my question: On the first sight it's a huge upgrade over t4, but is it worth it to loose the 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm Diamond? In a raid environment with around 40-50% crit rate it's quite a dps boost. | |||||||||||
| #4917 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Veritas17 |
BTW Sorry Rapparee for being quite combative, it's been a trying day and didn't mean to be so vague in my post.
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| #4918 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
ugbutz: Losing 1.2% of your DPS sounds pretty bad, but you can answer your own question.
Yo's simulates RED, just plug in your numbers. | |||||||||||
| #4919 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | everwatch |
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Before 2.3 10% of my damage on BL mobs was shocks. Now it's about 16%. Same mobs as part of my test with varying %'s still shows a decent basis of comparison from 2.2 to 2.3 even if a raid environment will be different on some level. | |||||||||||
| #4920 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | berg |
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R.E.D. effect improves your dps by .03 * crit rate. For example if your crit is 33.3% you are looking at a 1.0% melee dps gain from this effect. Determine your melee dps using a simulator of your choice. Say it is 1000. The gem effect alone would increase your dps to 1010. (1000 * 1.01) A difference of 10 dps. Now reset the sim and add AP until you have gone from your original 1000 melee dps to 1010dps. The amount of AP you added is a rough approximation of the AEP value of the meta gem effect. (For me it was roughly 37 ap) But do not forget that free agility. Take the AEP gain you calculated above and add 12x the AEP contribution of AGI for your gear and you have a decent estimation of the AEP contribution of that gem. Then just sum the AEP contributions of both helms and go with what is best. | |||||||||||
| #4921 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Gehenna |
nova
Post patch, im basically sitting with infinate mana.
I've turned to dropping fire nova every cooldown, and after it blows, i drop searing for a few seconds, no mana issues at all, basically fire nova is another shock for me. Im not sure i could maintain all of it without 25% mana reduction on the totems, but it is something to consider when comparing elemental and resto as secondary trees. 15% more damage from totems isn't a huge percentage of our overall damage by a longshot, but it is something. | |||||||||||
| #4922 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Disquette |
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The other option is to use which ever browser you use to delete the cache. If it has no cache, it will be forced to query the entire page again. IE has settings to set how often it will check for non-cached versions (every time you open IE, every time you open the page, etc) which may help solve the problem going forward, also. I'm not sure if firefox has this sort of granular mechanism, but I've never had a problem with either one so I can't say offhand how much this will help you. | |||||||||||
| #4923 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Krom[Fenris] |
Well, after some testing it appears the Stonebreaker Totems cooldown is 10seconds, no more. So basically if you have the buff up and you cast a shock there's no chance it will refresh. If someone else wants to work out the math for if it's worthwhile to try and time your shocks every 10 seconds instead of every 6 seconds, feel free :P
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| #4924 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Illundai |
God, I love this patch. Did Full MH and up to Akama tonight and I love it so much
. Infinite mana, more dps (hidden on the meters, but can be shown in WWS at least) and I feel like I can finally go all out. Haven't done Reliquary or Gurtogg yet, but I usually had to stop dps on at least Anetheron, RWC and HWLN. Didn't have to tonight ^^.Here's the WWS: Khaelyn - WWS (one of our messier raids, but hell I couldn't care even if I tried, really enjoyed myself tonight) I was chaindropping Fire Nova and Magma Totems on Hyjal trash, it really does nice damage if you check overall. 220k from Fire Nova, 180k from Searing and 90k from Magma Totem. But as everyone else has said, the biggest difference is Shamanistic Rage, oh dear god how I love it. Allows me to pull aggro from a mob without having too bad repercussions, allows me to mitigate damage such as Death & Decay, Doomfire, Unquenchable Flames, whatever other AoE. Not to mention the extra threat reduction. It really changed my playstyle, I usually at least waited 5-10 sec before dpsing a mob, now I just went straight in together with all the other melee, it was pure heaven . | |||||||||||
| #4925 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ikuturso |
Heads-up for Omen users: it appears Threat/Omen hasn't yet been updated to reflect the change to Spirit Weapons--thus, it's possible that you are judging your threat higher than it actually is.
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| #5051 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Ok this Executioner discussion is getting stupid. "Oh yah its great here's a random WWS parse which does nothing to illustrate how good/bad it is!"
Come on. Use the tools we have available. We have an EP stat weight for Armor Penetration. Yo's sim can be easily manipulated to test it as well. Figure out the estimated passive -Armor benefit that execution provides and add that in the sim to your -Armor stat, and remove mongoose from one weapon. Run the sim. Compare against running the sim with double mongoose. I cannot fathom how we've now got 2-3 pages of people asking the same shit over and over about "has anyone tested Executioner yet????" @Pitbuller - you just used an EP value for a 2.7 weapon, while the ones we have available are only for 2.6 speed. Did you calculate a 2.7 EP value recently? If so, hand the values over! | |||||||||||
| #5052 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Pitbuller |
8.48 and 4.24 is EP values for all same speed weapons(assuming equal wf procs). Purely theory based. Only thing what mess things up is how windfury procs divided beetween mh and oh.
EDIT: Yo's simulator give same dps to 12.56ap or 0.741dps to mh and 1.482dps(no oh penalty) to oh. EDIT2: The whole wDPS is now 10% higher than its should be becouse of mental quickness. Last edited by Pitbuller : 11/20/07 at 12:07 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5053 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
Isn't the purpose of EP from weapon DPS is to help us understand how much additional EP (from stats, procs, etc) a lower DPS weapon would need to have to exceed the usefulness of a higher DPS weapon?
Since we know that slower weapons with the SAME DPS as faster ones contribute more to overall DPS, the EP MUST be different for different weapon speeds. If this weren't true, I'd have offhanded the [Guile of Khoraazi], rather than vendoring it once I discovered this thread. | |||||||||||
| #5054 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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I was thinking [Shifting Camouflage Pants] would be nice for when Executioner procs, but comparing them with my personal EP factoring in Executioner as a full time buff (for s&g), [Shallow-grave Trousers] are still way better. Sigh...was hoping I'd have at least one mail upgrade with this patch. | |||||||||||
| #5055 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
The leather badge rewards are pretty superior to the mail ones overall. Slightly annoying since none of the leather I was considering as an in-between upgrade had any -Armor on it, but all the mail does (but would be a downgrade in most cases).
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| #5056 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Illundai |
The only reason my parse is there to illustrate the proc rate, which is the important part for a lot of people I presume? I might be dumb or retarded, but since when can you run the sim and add a value for a proc without knowing it's uptime? From what I can read in the Executioner thread, no one even knows how much PPM it is, or how much the proc chance is. It wildly varies, not to mention all the people in that thread are warriors or rogues.
So for those who didn't really pay attention to my parse, my Executioner had similar amount of procs to Mongoose, however the annoying part is that the refreshing of the buff isn't counted by WWS, so yah it's probably best to assume same ppm and procrate as Mongoose. And if you haven't read the other thread, the proc % is estimated to be about 5.1% - 7.4% and a ppm of 1.09 - 1.51. But they have wildy different numbers in between tests with weapons with different weapon speed, and so forth. Pretty much means that it's very hard to calculate the difference between Mongoose/Mongoose and Mongoose/Executioner. From personal experience, it's not worse at least. If it's better or not is going to depend on your own EP values and preferences. I think I'll be sticking to it, just only for the glow already! | |||||||||||
| #5057 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Pitbuller |
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If you use faster but same speeded weapons your dps will fall but ep value for ap isnt change same thing goes for Wdps ep. | |||||||||||
| #5058 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ilmatar |
Just out of curiosity, was my post regarding Executioner a month ago totally off the mark?
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| #5059 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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You also have to consider the benefit of gear on mongoose too, using my values from Yo's sim I get 315.16 for mongoose and 302.4 for executioner. Malan, assuming same proc rate as mongoose what would be the constant passive -armor for executioner? (useless at working that stuff out). | |||||||||||
| #5060 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Pitbuller |
If executioner have same proc rate than mongoose. Uptime is then 37%(with Yo's simulator default values)
0.37 * 840 = 310.8 passive armor penetration. | |||||||||||
| #5061 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
Since armor penetration gets better the more of it you have, I don't think you can fairly consider Executioner in terms of a constant passive amount. +840 for 20s per minute would be ever so slightly better than simply +280 straight up (although to be honest, it takes a ton of AP to move my stat weights significantly in simulation).
I picked up Executioner yesterday (out of convenience -- had no enchant on my upgraded hammer, no guildy has Mongoose even though we've brought down Moroes a hojillion times but we got Executioner on the first kill). I can only say it beats the piss out of Crusader. | |||||||||||
| #5062 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
If you're not willing to consider it as a passive amount than there is zero basis for comparison between any proc and a passive effect. You have to reduce procs to a passive in order to compare them. And yes, -Armor is better the more of it you have, and the sim will reflect that but a mathematical comparison cannot.
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| #5063 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ilmatar |
I agree that the procs shouldn't be reduced to a passive benefit before comparison, but if the proc rate is the same, and the buff duration is the same, can't we directly compare the enchants? If not than my post was dumb, but if so there should be a point at which Executioner > Mongoose. The stat weights for your gear would need to be determined via simulation, but after a bit of sim runs with people picking up -armor, we should be able to come up with a general rule about when it is better.
This is my noob attempt: Mongoose: 120agi, 2% haste (31.52 rating) Executioner: 840 -armor a = EP for 1 point of Agi h = EP for 1 point of Haste p = EP for 1 point of -Armor They give the same benefit when: 120a + 31.52h = 840p (120a + 31.52h)/p = 840 (30(4a + 1.05h))/p = 840 (Rounded haste rating down) (4a + 1.05h)/p = 28 So if you take your stat weights and plug in the values, and you get a number > 28, Executioner is superior. | |||||||||||
| #5064 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Well even using the standard EP values that makes Executioner better.
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| #5065 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bargle |
With the formula you gave, decreasing values of p (armor penetration AEP) will give a higher result, so it should be results < 28 mean executioner is superior.
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| #5066 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
ed.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/20/07 at 6:50 PM. Reason: Double posting again (why does it do that?) | |||||||||||
| #5067 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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(4a + 1.05h) / 28 = p(equal worth) Plugging in the T4 EP: (4*1.74 + 1.05*1.28) / 28= p (6.96 + 1.4144) / 28 = p 8.3744 / 28 = p .29 = p Lo and behold, that's higher than the T4 EP for Armor Penetration (.22). For T5, it works out to .34 Looks like I made a bad choice. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/20/07 at 6:57 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5068 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ilmatar |
Thanks for the fixes. Apologies for the errors. I just wanted to move the Executioner vs. Mongoose debate in a more constructive direction.
Moogle mentioned, in a previous post, that off hand was the better choice for the enchant since the hit which procs the effect does not gain the benefit from that effect. This is a bit from a WWS parse: ![]() 03:44'31.400 Ilmatar's Melee hits Astromancer for 654 525 Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom 907 Ilmatar's Melee hits Astromancer for 313 947 Astromancer's Molten Armor hits Ilmatar for 75 Fire damage 03:44'32.291 Ilmatar gains Lightning Speed of NULL 306 Ilmatar's Windfury Attack hits Astromancer for 1056 306 Ilmatar's Windfury Attack hits Astromancer for 1057 306 Ilmatar gains 124 Mana from Water Shield 306 Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom 713 Ilmatar gains Haste of NULL 719 Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom | |||||||||||
| #5069 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
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[e] I just saw Stonebreaker totem proc in Hyjal off of a magic immune banshee. Looks like even if the shock is resisted or immune we can still get the buff. (Which by the way is really annoying how it looks like BoW constantly refreshing on me) Last edited by Malan : 11/20/07 at 9:07 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5070 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
I think that the banshees are unique, because even with the magic immune shell you can still ES their curse to interrupt it. Could have been changed but on test I went out to SMV and shocked that banished demon for about 10 minutes straight without seeing a proc.
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| #5071 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Sebudai |
Banshees aren't immune to magic. They just cast Anti-Magic Shell, which absorbs magic damage.
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| #5072 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava | ||||||||||||
| #5073 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
I did notice that it still procs off Rank 1 shocks which is nice.
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| #5074 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Raut |
Hm. Is there a fixed amount of AC on bosses or at least a common amount on most bosses? And does the damage reduction from AC on a boss scale like on a player?
Just wondering if a boss can have a large amount of AC, it gives a scaling damage reduction like on players and thus removing a fixed amount of armor will be very in-effective on high AC bosses, and very good on AC light bosses. | |||||||||||
| #5075 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | vorda |
On the first page of this forum: [RAID] Boss armor values
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| #5176 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Rob |
Resto subspec:
3% to ~45% of damage and 86/83 - 1 = 3.6% to ~15% of damage ==> 1.35%+0.542% = 1.89% damage increase 30 yard totems 40 minute ankh or -25% mana cost on totems Elemental subspec 1/6*105%*15% of damage = 2.625% damage increase 5 sec CD on earth/frost shock (some utility) requires use of more GCDs -- damage increase only holds true if you are shocking perfectly Elemental gives you a 102.625/101.89 - 1 = 0.72% maximum theoretical DPS increase under optimal circumstances. (In other words, if you're 1500 DPS as resto, you'd be 1511 DPS as elemental with perfect play.) You gain some PvP utility of being able to shock more frequently, but lose the PvE utility offered by increased totem range. You will be on GCD more often and I doubt that anyone will see an actual damage increase moving to elemental from restoration, period. It requires you to be impossibly perfect in your play to see a DPS increase in a raid setting. I do feel that you can now make a case for elemental as a viable alternative, but it's not going to be a DPS improvement -- it's a change of pace, at best. | |||||||||||
| #5177 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Sebudai |
Restoration vs. Elemental: The Final Showdown
Here's my attempt at a mathematical comparison between the two specs dps-wise. I will be basing all of the following math off of my own statistics.
Not counting things like Improved Hunter's Mark or Expose Weakness, my raid buffed attack power is about 3035. So Mental Quickness is giving me about +910 spell damage. As far as I know Flame Shock is still benefiting from about 61% of our spell damage, Earth Shock about 43%, and each tick of Searing Totem about 17%. If these numbers are incorrect, please let me know. I'll also be using Yo's! simulator to determine the amount of melee dps I would lose by not having Nature's Guidance. Hopefully it is accurate. Enhancement/Restoration: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Flame Shock 797 base damage. +555 damage from Mental Quickness. +15% from Fire Vulnerability. +13% from Curse of Elements. +5% from Misery. -14% from resists. Total: 797+555*1.15*1.13*1.05*0.86 = 1586~ damage. Earth Shock 675 base damage. +391 damage from Mental Quickness. +5% from Misery. +20% from Stormstrike. -14% from resists. Total: 675+391*1.05*1.20*0.86 = 1155~ damage. Searing Totem 58 base damage per tick. +155 damage from Mental Quickness. +15% from Fire Vulnerability. +13% from Curse of Elements. +5% from Misery. -17% from resists. Total: 58+155*1.15*1.13*1.05*0.83 = 241~ damage every 2.5 seconds. Total DPS from shocks/Searing Totem as Restoration spec: 325~ DPS. --- Enhancement/Elemental: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Flame Shock 797 base damage. +555 damage from Mental Quickness. +15% from Fire Vulnerability. +13% from Curse of Elements. +5% from Misery. +5% from Concussion. -17% from resists. Total: 797+555*1.15*1.13*1.05*1.05*0.83 = 1608~ damage. Earth Shock 675 base damage. +391 damage from Mental Quickness. +5% from Misery. +20% from Stormstrike. +5% from Concussion. -17% from resists. Total: 675+391*1.05*1.20*1.05*0.83 = 1170~ damage. Searing Totem 58 base damage per tick. +155 damage from Mental Quickness. +15% from Fire Vulnerability. +13% from Curse of Elements. +5% from Misery. +15% from Call of Flame. -17% from resists. Total: 58+155*1.15*1.13*1.05*1.15*0.83 = 277~ damage every 2.5 seconds. Total DPS from shocks/Searing Totem as Elemental spec: 389~ DPS. --- Net differences between the two specs after factoring in the melee DPS gained from Nature's Guidance: Improved Healing Wave, Improved Reincarnation, Totemic Focus, and Totemic Mastery vs. Elemental Warding and 35~ DPS. Other factors: All of this math assumes the player is keeping Searing Totem up 100% of the time and shocking immediately on every cooldown. Not meeting these conditions certainly favors the Restoration spec. I did not account for crits. Considering our low crit rate, the fact that Flame Shock crits affect less than half of the spells total damage, and our lack of Elemental Fury, I don't think this changes the math in any major way. But feel free to figure that out on your own and prove me wrong. Totemic Focus is a requirement for totem twisting on a lot of encounters, even after the patch. If you don't totem twist, then perhaps elemental spec is the correct choice for you. If you totem twist, restoration is the correct choice in my opinion. Gear has a large affect on these numbers. My math based off of my own statistics can give you a decent idea of the differences between the two specs, but if you want to be hardcore, figure it out based off of your own statistics. | |||||||||||
| #5178 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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Ignoring facts is a good way to ensure all arguments here go on for pages. I'd rather try to put this debate to rest (with, "yes, we checked, elemental is x% more dps but friggit, we're going resto because we love out raid") than have it re-introduced and re-dismissed over 20 pages of bad math. | |||||||||||
| #5179 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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Anyhow, my point in raising these questions was to get a cogent set of the arguments AGAINST what is from a mathematical perspective justifiable. It's kind of like the 2.6.2 changes to Water Shield. On paper, you're not gaining anything...but nobody in the real world is refreshing water shields exactly as they pop, there's too much other stuff to worry about. | |||||||||||
| #5180 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Sebudai |
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Secondly, you're wrong about these dps numbers. I've posted a bunch of WWS in this thread alone. I really don't want to come off as bragging at all because I'm not, but here's just a few WWS from half of this weeks Hyjal/BT clear without any Searing Totem damage attributed to me: WWS - Rage Winterchill WWS - Anetheron WWS - Kaz'rogal (I'm usually 100-200 dps higher on this fight) WWS - Naj'entus WWS - Teron Gorefiend Pre-2.3 through 104 total logged encounters in Hyjal/BT my average dps was 1342. Post patch with a DST and that number is higher. My current average through two weeks of 2.3 is 1448. Teron Gorefiend is not singlehandedly inflating these numbers. If I played better, this average DPS number could definitely reach 1500+. Once again, I'm not trying to brag. I'm just trying to give examples. Last edited by Sebudai : 11/24/07 at 2:42 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5181 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5182 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
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| #5183 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
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That parse data doesn't add up. For instance, on Rage Winterchill, going by your damage alone, you DPSd for 142 seconds. Arkadu did more damage, but DPSed only 98% of the time, AND he did less DPS than you did. Whoever uploaded your stats obviously messed something up... WWS Same here. Arkadu did less DPS, but out damaged you by 20k damage, and was present for only 1% longer on a 197 second fight, again based off your damage and DPS. Why don't you post some Violation damage parses of your own. That will give us a MUCH more accurate reading of your damage :P WWS And look at that. You really only did 15 shocks the ENTIRE 3 minute fight? You could either do a lot more damage, or again the numbers are a bit quirky.... For instance, the fight took exactly 179 seconds by your damage to dps ratio, yet the actual parse is for only 2 minutes of data? Edit: My own guild mates are telling me that those DPS figures are your maximum DPS, not sustained, which makes sense given that a warrior did 1500 dps on Teron and was present 100% of the time, yet was outdamaged by a lock doing only 1100 dps and who was present for the same time :P Edit 2: I just got finished messing around with Yo!'s simulator. You would need something like 2800 AP unbuffed, 32% crit, 18% hit, 2% haste and 550 AP with BoK/Mark/BoM/LotP/TSA/BS/Drums/Haste/Elixir/Food and mongoose weapon enchant with 2 100.2 DPS weapons just to hit 1550 dps on a boss with 6200 armor. Would you care to explain how you can seemingly get 1800+ dps? :P Last edited by Beowolf : 11/24/07 at 4:41 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5184 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Rob |
Totem twisting has theoretical returns a lot higher than 0.7% of your DPS. If you're getting GoA that you wouldn't normally be, that right there is ~5% crit or ~3% more damage overall, and that's just for you -- including everyone else in the party might provide benefits equal to 10% or more of your DPS.
On the other hand, if you're trying to argue that GCDs are not problematic, you're completely ignoring that the theoretical DPS increase from going Elemental for 5 second shocks will greatly inhibit your ability to totem twist. If you want to min-max, the absolute best raid DPS is going to be resto spec with totem twisting. Back-of-the-napkin math is more than adequate to show this. Trying to come up with a rotation for elemental with totem twisting requires the following: 0.0-WF 1.5-GoA 3.0-FS 4.5-SS 8.0-ES 9.5-WF This should make it clear that if your latency plus reaction time is greater than 100ms, you will not achieve the theoretical gains that elemental offers. (Not to mention every minute you must refresh Searing, and every two minutes you must use SR, trinkets, and refresh SoE/Mana Spring, and probably pop a mana pot to keep up with the twisting+shock spam...) I think that it's not hard to agree that the absolute best min-max way to go is totem twisting with a resto subspec. On the other hand, if you're like me, and only totem twist occasionally because you find it too hard to focus on your surroundings, maybe Elemental is worth considering... but for me, it's not, because that 0.7% DPS isn't worth it to lose things like imp ankh and imp totem range. I can honestly see speccing Elemental for PvP -- a reduced cooldown on Earth and Frost Shocks would be useful there -- but it's just not the best option for raiding. Last edited by Rob : 11/24/07 at 4:44 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5185 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
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| #5186 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Ahindwe |
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I didn't check the other two, but I imagine you'll find similar results. I don't have the answer for the small inconsistencies you're seeing, but I think you're just being stubborn at this point. | |||||||||||
| #5187 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Sebudai |
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The reason Arkadu is dealing more damage than me while doing less DPS is because he's actually attacking the mob more than I am, and WWS accounts for this. For example on Rage Winterchill we move out of Death and Decay, I often take this opportunity to help top my group off, or give people instructions(I am leading the raid). Arkadu gains a little DPS time on the mob each time I do this. Me not doing this would not reduce my DPS in any way, in fact it would probably increase it. If you look at the Rage parse Arkadu has 100% DPS Time while I have 93%. That means that for 93% of my presence in the log I was actually dealing damage. The DPS number WWS lists is the average DPS the player did over the period of time they were actually attacking the mob. ![]()
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Last edited by Sebudai : 11/24/07 at 4:51 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5188 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
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| #5189 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Rob |
No -- I haven't totem twisted since the patch, and I only twisted before when I was threat-capped and needed TA. But what does that have to do with anything? If we're answering the question "How can I get the absolute maximum raid DPS?" the answer is: spec Enhance/Resto and totem twist. If we're answering the question "What is the easiest way to do respectable raid DPS?" the answer is: spec Enhance/Resto and don't totem twist. Enhance/Elemental gives you more DPS than Enhance/Resto without totem twisting, but at the cost of increased complexity and decreased utility, when you could have just stayed Enhance/Resto and totem twisted if you didn't mind the extra complexity.
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| #5190 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
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| #5191 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Sebudai |
I've edited my reply to you above. I'd also like to add that yes, I really only did shock 15 times on Teron. Imagine how high that dps number would be if I was a better player.
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| #5192 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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The WWS are correct, click on Modrack's name; DPS time : 1mn (62 % of presence), DPS : 1510. Also, 326969/179=1826, accurate? Yes. Independently hosted WWS don't know how to show exact time, so it rounds to the nearest minute. Apparently he does hit that much harder. | |||||||||||
| #5193 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
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| #5194 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
Teron DPS presence was 100%, and I don't understand how a comment about being present 93% of rage would equate to 25-30% more dps. You are missing these things on the sim, they are called armor debuffs. Sunder, Faerie Fire, Recklessness, ect make that value lower.
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| #5195 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
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As far as the WWS parses, I admit they seem roughly legitimate as I crunch the numbers and compare the various times. Unfortunately they are also HIGHLY misleading, as they only count DPS when you are actually fighting a mob, and not when you are doing something else: like getting out of an AE, healing, dropping totems etc. Essentially free time to let your cooldowns refresh to give you that extra burst potential (WF/SS/Shocks). If I trimmed away all the non damage time crap that I do on a fight, I am sure I would come out with similar damage ratios that he has. He only has about 75 more AP and a tad more haste than I do presently! Edit: I will try to get someone in my guild to run the numbers for Gorefiend tonight and compare notes. | |||||||||||
| #5196 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Sebudai |
Do you realize you were just proven wrong about ten different ways and yet for some reason you're still acting like a condescending douchebag? I mean, do you want me to return the favor? Perhaps me and my guild are just better at dealing damage than you and your guild? Do you really want to get in a dick waving contest with me or something? You're basically trolling at this point, and these aren't the forums for that.
They're not "my" standards, they're WWS' standards, and they're perfectly reasonable and pretty much agreed upon by all of the people that actually know how WWS works. Clearly you're not one of those people since I just had to explain to you some of WWS' most basic functions. Where exactly did you pull that 25-30% number from anyway? I could very easily not heal my group at all on Rage, or just neglect my raid leading duties and focus more on dealing maximum damage. My DPS would be exactly the same or higher. Not only are those DPS numbers accurate, but they could clearly be higher if I played better. You're just plain wrong about that 1200 DPS number. It's okay to be wrong. You're completely exaggerating the dps I gain from the way WWS calculates it. It is very marginal at best. Hell, next clear I'll make sure I have 100% DPS Time on every encounter so my guilds parses can meet your demanding standards. Also, could you give me an accurate armory link? It looks like your pvp spec now, but if you normally use most of that gear in pve, you are in fact quite a bit behind me gear-wise, which would account for some of the difference in DPS. Last edited by Sebudai : 11/24/07 at 5:58 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5197 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5198 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | everwatch |
First off I saw one argument comparing spec'ing Ele versus Totem Twisting. This has to be one of the stupidest arguments ever. Ele spec can totem twist. You're done. We have so little mana issues now you can still totem twist while being spec'd Ele. Drop that one. Sure resto gets a mana break, but Ele spec'd shaman can totem twist too.
Shock damage. I listed several WWS where Shocks at their low were 13% of my damage and at their high were 19% of my damage. Through my testing I have found shocks to be 16% of my total dmg on average. This is in part due to *MY* playstle since I've seen other shaman with only 10% of their dmg from shocks since 2.3 which really does boggle me, but hey. Whatever. So what this means is that Shock damage, depending on your gear, playstyle, preferences, latency, computer, skill, etc... is likely to range somewhere between 10-18% of your total damage done. I can tell you from personal experience that if you are sharp on your GCD timers that 16% is very achievable. It is not however a static number for everyone. It isn't 15% of your damage, or 10%, or 16%. The previous example of your white damage needing to 7 times greater than your shock damage is a more static and useful tool. Apply that to your personal Shock damage results will yield the correct assumption. Resto vs Ele. As Malan said about Executioner vs Mongoose, I'd like to mimic him here. They are close enough to not truly require you to spec one way or the other. I have spec'd Resto and Ele both since 2.3 and found the differences to be minimal. It is a playstle preference. Do you like 5 second cooldown shocks for interrupts and dps with Ele Warding? Or do you like faster ankhs/heals and totem range improvements? Whatever floats your boat is the right answer. The dps overage is not enough to say any one spec trumps the versatility of the other. As to totem ranges nerfing DPS. If you're a shaman worth your salt, then you know when a boss moves to drop a WF totem first, and to do so before the melee makes it into range of the boss. You also know that the WF pulse has a long enough duration to drop another totem near the melee so they don't lose it. Totem range is about "easy mode" or just being lazy about managing GCD's. *AND* if you do totem twist, then drop it because you're dropping totems left and right and can move them around easy. Your dps also knows to stay in range of the stupid totems. There are so few fights where the BOSS will move AWAY from the TOTEMS that totem range being an issue is BS. And if GCD is the issue - and you're worried about the raid dps like you say you are, then don't Shock/SS. Drop new totems. It's simple. *IF ANYTHING* reduced totem range nerfs *your* dps. Because if you're being a good raider, you're putting your totems out before Shocking/SS'ing. I went Ele and I have noticed the range loss. It hurts. But it just means *I* have to work harder and manage my GCD's not only more often but more efficiently as well. And my melee boys have not once complained about even once being out of WF range. And I've asked. As to potential Enhance DPS. I personally am a "weirdo shammy". I went full T5 instead of taking the best pieces that I could. Why? Because I dug the way the set looked. Simple. I nerfed my dps in order to look cool. Selfish? Sure. But then it's my game and I play it the way I want to. So speaking as such, I maintain anywhere between 900-1200 dps on average depending on the fight and what is required of me. Also as to how well the group is stacked in my favor. So knowing that, I think it's very reasonable to extrapolate that an "optimally geared shaman" could maintain on average 1200-1500 dps on average. Keep in mind that fights such as Shade/Akama/and a few others see my dps in a range of 1200-1500. I don't speak of max, I speak of averages. You guys are usually very tight and facts roll out most of the time. Some newer posts have lead to some bickering. I hate seeing that. If you have some new data, back it with some WWS's or SS's. And if you're going to call out a long time respected poster, think about what you're saying and make sure you can back up what you say too. Last edited by everwatch : 11/24/07 at 6:11 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5199 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Tahirne |
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Seb, tell Hakle I say hello. Miss the guy. Seb, your numbers really are impressive. Goodjob on all the fights. I personally pull 1000-1100 DPS Depending on the encounter and raid setup. Seeing 1600-1750 Is a very nice thing to look up to when gear improves. Now as for the Elemental/Enhance Vs Enhancement/Resto, In my personal opinion I would believe 2/45/15 to be superior, mainly because the argument for Elemental/Enhance is overall more shock damage while those arguing for that tend to ignore the fact that your losing 3% spell hit from specing out of natures guidance as well. Gaining 3% more shock Damage for the loss of 3% less spell/melee hit - No thanks. | |||||||||||
| #5200 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Nuala |
Wondering about fist weapons ...
Hello, I just read this post with great attention and I am sure it will help me gear myself up better.
But I ran a search and did not find any relevant information on fist weapons. I currently run on 2 Runic Hammers and plan to take a gladiator weapon, with honor points or arena points I don't know yet. I guess I need to choose between better gear and worse weapon or better weapon and lower gear. Three weapons are available, Mace Axe or Fist Weapon. In the first post, you tend to encourage people to take an Axe if they are Orcs or a Mace, but you do not speak of Fist Weapons. Tell me if I am wrong but there is no difference in stats or DPS on those three weapons, The only difference I see is that the Gladiator Right Ripper is not as regular a weapon, it has a bigger top damage number and a smaller lower damage number. The damage window is larger wich in turn will lead to higher crits and higher WF procs but also the worse crits and the worse WF procs. This could be an asset in pvp because high damage is more difficult to heal through (though resilience has seen to that) but you could also end up with very low damage if you are unlucky. This is a drawback in pve because it adds to the random DPS a Shaman tends to do while he relies on procs. I am sure I am missing something on fist weapons and why not use them, so I would be thankful if someone could enlighten me with the correct information. Thanks in advance. | |||||||||||
| #5201 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Boro |
@ Sebudai
Your figures in the WWS parses are very similar to mine for BT but in Hyjal you seem to be doing more dps. But as someone once said (Malan and Rob i think) in an earlier response to one of my posts....WWS is not comparable between different guilds raids etc its such a subjective way to do things. One thing is for sure though that the average dps in your raids across all classes is very high no slackers there for sure :-) Do you tend to run with 6/7 healers these days? With regards to WWS I see your guild does not use the online service for hosting as the links you show are to your guilds web space. I think you are therefore using the local generation of stats and hosting the results your selves. I would be grateful if you could ask your WWS guys how they manage to get the whole fight for Akama, including the Channellers and other mobs. When you host a BT parse on WWS servers it only shows Akama as a fight from the time he is released. Do your guys trim the logs? for each fight and host them? If so I think this may be a better way to give more accurate and meaningful parses, focussing specifically on each encounter. I did a raid last night in ZA with the elemental spec 16/45/0 ( thought I would try it out before our Hyjal/BT clear tomorrow) within the first 2 bosses I had party messages from my group asking if WF was down lol. I think you know the reasons why......I ended up totem twisting......but just WF!! | |||||||||||
| #5202 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Kalince |
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In any case his 92% DPS is a reasonable time DPsing as I typically get around that with Rage and still his numbers are way higher then mine given similar gear which is rather surprising. I think I pretty much have the cause narrowed down though which is the things he has over me is BoM (I hate our paladins), possibly group composition (where is the feral druid), and better overall raid DPS will inflate anyone's numbers who get a heroism. P.S. - Every single example you gave of WWS calculating things wrong you are either using the wrong numbers or you are doing the math wrong (I checked each one). | |||||||||||
| #5203 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
WWS parses are misleading, they can be incomplete, etc.
They are useless to generate theory, only hypothesis and confirmation. But at the very least, understand the metrics you're disputing. That bit about DPS time and flame shock I did not realize, though I should have, as I raid with a shadow priest who's usually at 99% dps time. | |||||||||||
| #5204 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | gorsameth |
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Which is why classes like a shadowpriest have 99-100% dps time because there is always a dot ticking. | |||||||||||
| #5205 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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I achieve 1500+ dps on many fights in BT/Hyjal. I even posted WWS logs of 1500+ dps excluding totem damage.... Also, Yo's sim gives me 1650-1700 dps. My stats are 1880 AP/20.03% hit/33.98% crit, with standard group buffs like battle shout, BoM. Check it out for yourself :/ | |||||||||||
| #5206 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
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| #5207 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Illundai |
<editted, terrible mood - apologies>
Last edited by Illundai : 11/24/07 at 2:33 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5208 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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So Teron is definitly not the only fight you can do 1500 dps on :P /sarcasm off | |||||||||||
| #5209 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
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So by that standard, Sebudai, your real DPS on these fights was: RWC - 172 seconds of tanking, 1404 instead of 1701 (-17.5%) Anetheron - 217 seconds of tanking, 1450 instead of 1596 (-9.2%) Kaz'rogal - 175 seconds of tanking, 1367 instead of 1495 (-8.6%) Naj'entus - 225 seconds of tanking, 1278 instead of 1403 (-8.9%) Teron - 191 seconds of tanking, 1712 instead of 1826 (-6.2%) So again, without the quirks, your DPS is well short of 1500 dps on all fights but Teron. It seems that the more you have to stay out of melee DPS (such as avoiding D&D) the more inflated your total DPS becomes. | |||||||||||
| #5210 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Ok this line of discussion just needs to stop. Several of you are acting like total asshats right now.
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| #5211 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Paradox |
*how* can you do so much dps? share your secrets... sure, I need to get me a RT/Syphon or Syphon/Syphon combo yet, but the rest of my gear is pretty similar to all of your guys claiming to do such high dps.. our rogues don't even hit 1400 most of the time
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| #5212 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | dardack |
Ok I'll leave the resto/ele discussion to others along with the DPS numbers, since i'm still in T4 stuff and my guild is just doing gruuls and started ZA and clearing prince on kara. My question is how to compaire AEP numbers for different speeded weapons with different DPS numbers. I know i posted this a few pages ago, but I've still been searching for a way and still haven't found an answer. I like to use a spreadsheet for my gear, each page has weapons i have, helms, chestpieces, etc, along with pieces i know could dropfrom the bosses we are doing and any weapons i maybe able to make in the future. So i've used pitbulls numbers i believe for the AEP numbers for DPS on weapons. I know that slower with same DPS is better, but what about differing DPS numbers with differing speeds. My thought was taking the 8.48MH/4.24OH numbers, taking those dividing by 2.6 (the original weapon speed) and then multiplying by the current weapon speed. This will make faster ie 2.2 worse and slower 2.8 better, where i know we don't want to get over 2.7 i think, maybe 2.8, so obviously i don't compare anything slower than that. So basically (AEP of DPS/2.6)*Current Weapons speed. My math skills have left me as i've gotten out of college over the years, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
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| #5213 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf | ||||||||||||
| #5214 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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Secondary, your gear isn't *that* close to the people you are comparing with. Only had a quick glance but your crit is low which has a big effect on flurry uptime, if you look at others (mine for example) we are running with 32-34% crit unbuffed so in raids its upto around 38-42% constantly = 90%+ flurried strikes and 100% UR. I recommend ditching those rings and get others, the hyjal one atleast for example. Lastly, it's purely a case of paying attention to GCDs as there really isn't any secret to dpsing as enhancement its just a matter of using SS and shocks as soon as the cooldown is up and always drop totems when SS & shocks are on cooldown. | |||||||||||
| #5215 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Myul |
The difference in the personal damage depends a LOT from your raid composition:
Druid: oomkin +3% hit, feral +5% crit if he's in your group; fearie fire applied? Paladin: retribution +3% crit & +2% dmg if he's in your group Hunter: +3% per beastmaster if they're in your group, survival ~ +300 AP from expose weakness, marksmanship +440 AP from improved hunter's mark Warrior: improved battleshout + solarian trinket, blood frenzy +4% dmg?, sunder armor applied? Warlock: Curse of recklessness (!) (multiple) leatherworker with [Drums of War] or [Drums of Battle] in your group? Do you chainchug hastepots? And while comparing gear on charsheets, did you look for possibile proccs, weapon expertise and armor penetration? --- Resto or ele? I would never drop the 10yards on my totem range on any (trashwaves) fight in hyal. And i really like totem twisting a lot, totemic focus helps. The personal damage might be a little higher with reverbation, but without totem twisting my group damage will drop a lot (more?). Last edited by Myul : 11/24/07 at 4:38 PM. Reason: adding something | |||||||||||
| #5216 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5217 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
I. Adding to Ele VS Resto flame:
1.Each individual shock is effectively increased by 1.3% only, when going ele from resto: 0,83*1,05/0,86 = 1,013 2. Loosing 3% melee hit is affecting not only the white part even with hit cap being reached for yellow attacks. Your on-hit procs from items and your windfurry damage are directly affected. It is not 3% of white damage it is 3%*7/5 at least not counting trinkets and cross-effect. 3. Whole elemental damage part is dependant on how many shocks per 2 min cycle you can upkeep. 2 min - because totems, UR, pot and possibly trinket are on this timer and you need to renew them. Those who specced resto are usually in the range 12-14 shocks per 2 minutes instead of 20. Keep in mind that shocks have low priority - if you shock but SS or trinket activation are delayed - your total dps is going to drop because 85%+ of your damage comes from melee. Here is a table of dps increases one will see if being able to perform 4 shocks more over 2 minutes while speccing from resto to ele if all raid spell buffs will be ready for your use: Eleresto - INFOSTORE.ORG If you think that 18 shocks over 2 minutes is easy - please show your wws. II. Sim "To do list": Stonebreaker relic Executioner enchant Expertise replacing weapon skill + inclusion into EP calculation Zul'Amani buff Saving settings between sessions Elemental damage part review EP step scale (melee damage is being predicted with std as low as 1 leading to EP values std of 0.3 but introduction of spell damage part added its own std of 1-2 leading to unacceptable std of EP values - 0,6+ with 10,000 hours setup, further increasing hours is not helping, so there are 2 ways to go - redesign spell part and introduce option of higher AP/rating steps while calculating EP values) Mana balance calculation (per 2 minutes cycle) Internal item's database Dressing room GUI selection of items Items import (parsing item's tooltip) Full character import from WoW armory "It will be done when it will be ready" (c) Blizzard III. Ignore armor IA is unique in that if you are stacking it - it's EP value is increasing. This can possibly lead to a situation when EP values suggest upgrade direction with balanced stats while it is possible to "jump" to another local extremum (with possible higher dps) with a lot of AI within same item's budget. IV. Rhetoric question How the hell Blizzard thinks one can effectively tune their characters (gear/talents/playstyle) without going deep into theorycrafting? And they continue to add new stats into mix.. ![]()
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| #5218 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
@Yo - The sim no longer functions with OS X 10.5.1 Leopard, the Mac Java package broke Java 6 functionality. I'm not sure if your code is using actualy Java 6 methods or if you're just compiling it with Java 6 for the heck of it?
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| #5219 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
All design elements are from Java 6 (fancy buttons, etc.). Java turned out to be not that universal (including different looks on different systems). Hopefully Java 6 will be supported by Macs soon.
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| #5220 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Destro |
Apologies if this is too specific or anything, but I'd appreciate some comforting feedback. I haven't noticed this posted yet.
I ran my stats through Yo's sim for 10,000 hours and got agility as worth more than strength. Isn't this a little odd? I've never seen any raiding enhancement shaman gem towards agility over strength. If I run it for 1,000 hours I get a set of seemingly more sensible results, is this just some inaccuracy of the calculator or are these my real AEP values? I see no way in which I've made an error in inputting my stats. EDIT: I just read Yo's post, is this possibly an error from ticking the AP -> +dmg conversion box? Stats increased by 10% for kings and including talents: 1613AP, 30.5% crit, 15.02% hit, 2% haste, 0 Arm Pen, DS/Merc Glad, double WF Mongoose etc etc. ![]()
Thanks. Last edited by Destro : 11/24/07 at 6:31 PM. Reason: clarity | |||||||||||
| #5221 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
Variation of EP (AEP) values is too high after selecting AP->dmg conversion making EP values produced with it being "on" unreliable. Use sim without conversion and substruct 0.1-0.2 from all values except Str and AP as a workaround for now.
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| #5222 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Destro |
Thanks a lot, Yo.
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| #5223 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Shalas |
Why should you gimp yourself now just because you'll be nerfed later? The only time that makes sense is when the nerfs result in having to relearn how to play. With something like the removal of mana conserve mods for healing, it made sense to learn how to play without them prior to 1.10 coming out so that you wouldn't have a raid full of healers going OOM at 90% when 1.10 did come out. With totem twisting, you have to learn to... not hit your totem twist macro. It seems very unlikely that you don't already know how to do that. The only thing that you might have to "learn" is how to beat fights with slightly less DPS, but it's a low priority bug that isn't easy to fix. I would not be at all surprised to see totem twisting still working well into WotLK.
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| #5224 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | SentinelBorg |
I also made some calculations today. With my values as a base, I tried to answer two questions:
a.) With the new Mental Quickness, in which amount has the value of AP increased? b.) How many EP do I need to increase my DPS by 1%? Well, I don't want to post the whole calculations here, but I got my two answers: a.) The benefit of AP has increased by around 3%. Which means, that you can divide all other values by 1.03, as long as the sim can't calculate stable EP values with Mental Quickness active. b.) 50 EP translates to a 1% total DPS increase. | |||||||||||
| #5225 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
a) The value of AP is and will always be, 1. Its what all the other values are based upon. It doesn't increase or decrease. Its just 1. It is the rock, the foundation that all other values derive from.
b) EP is boiling things down into an attack power equivalence. So that's great, you just said that 50 Attack Power increases your DPS by 1%. Short version - you haven't discovered anything new. | |||||||||||
| #5251 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mano |
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| #5252 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Revdarian |
It must do a buff check, the totems it doesn�t display are those that do not put a buff over the player but instead pulse an effect, like for example Poison Cleansing, Disease Cleansing, Tremor Totem, etc.
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| #5253 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Danath |
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| #5254 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | berg |
This is kind of a 'duh' post but there are too many wws comparing posts and I think I is important for people to consider these ideas when looking at wws parses.
1) You cannot just click random wws reports and compare their shaman numbers with your own. You must also compare total raid dps on their side with your own raid dps. Assume a 4M HP boss. If their raid has 16000 dps and yours has 12000 dps that means their fight was done in 250 seconds and yours in 333. So they were bloodlusted for 16% of their raid and you were bloodlusted for 12% of yours. Your guildmates can have a profound on your dps and it needs to be taken into consideration when analyzing wws parses. 2) Also please remember that there is large variance for enhance dps. Load up Yo's sim and put in all default values and a simulation time of 1 hour. After clicking simulate 10-15 times I had a minimum result of 901 and a maximum result of 951. This is after one hour of simulation meaning this data should be far tighter than anything we would see against a boss. DPS swings in the 5-10% range are to be expected, do not get worried about them. | |||||||||||
| #5255 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
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| #5256 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | BoinKlasik |
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| #5257 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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But heres a link for you, wowace c list then just go down the list to Chaman2 .... Oh, and just found it on wowaceupdater, in the outdated section. | |||||||||||
| #5258 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Capital |
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Edit: Too slow ![]() | |||||||||||
| #5259 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Lujaar |
Totemus can also be set to track how many of your party members are in range of your totems. I can't remember the name of the option, but it's the third setting on the slider at the bottom of the timer configuration window. Doesn't track windfury or pulse totems but it does track SoE/GoA/healing stream/mana spring.
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| #5260 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
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| #5261 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5262 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Garlik |
sorry if this has been answerd before, gone through main post and last few pages and couldnt find an answer*
when it comes to pvp , what would be a better weapon enchant choice? mongoose/mongoose or mongoose/exe ? | |||||||||||
| #5263 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | justinr |
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Without throwing around any numbers: Assume Mongoose and Executioner are very close to equal in terms of plain vannilla dps increase. Mongoose increases DPS through crit, which is mitigated by resiliance (crits do less bonus damage). PvP gear now has passive armor pen, Amor Pen is better when you've got more of it. Executioner doesn't increase your dodge though. Dodging helps you defensivly against warriors(somewhat) and rogues when they can't get behind you. I'm going to assume that Mongoose/executioner is your better pvp option for most cases. | |||||||||||
| #5264 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Atren |
Dodge helps against rogues while you are not stunned, only exception being with 41 combat talent finishers cant be dodged i think?
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| #5265 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | justinr |
A question to other BT/Hijal Shamans:
How are you adjusting your EP numbers for mental quickness? (Yo's sim is a little broken atm) I've been trying to evaluate some gear using my own personal EP from Yo's simulator. (Thank you for this wonderfull tool that keeps my entertained durring my working hours. My boss however would probably not like you because of that.) But I was getting some wildely different values from it for the exact same sim inputs. I read the notes below it and saw: ![]()
I'm not asking for my numbers to be calculated for me, I'd just like to hear how others are doing their own (and their reasoning) so I can decide the best way to do mine. | |||||||||||
| #5266 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bdatik |
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Ahh, here we go: | |||||||||||
| #5267 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5268 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | justinr |
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| #5269 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Disquette |
I meant that having an enhancement shaman in the group with the rogues seemed to provide about 100 dps extra than having a non-enhance shaman (but still a shaman!) in that group. This comes partially from UR, partially from higher WF access uptime and enhanced melee totems.
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| #5270 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | JulianMaiev |
A quick search didn't find any math on this, but I might have missed it-- is it possible that an Elemental Devastation build could be viable assuming that you are casting frost shocks of some rank, that you have an additional 10% crit from Winter's Chill, and that you have 3% crit from Imp JotC?
I understand that's a lot of assumptions, but that should put you at around an 18% crit rate. Since the recent round of math seems to have ele/enh builds very close to enh/resto builds anyway, might that be a worthwhile place to invest a couple of talent points? | |||||||||||
| #5271 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Psibeast |
Having reached 4 piece T5 and the awsome set bonus that comes with it I was looking forward to what T6 has to offer and it seems very bad compared to the T5 set bonuses. Each piece by itself is an improvement as stats go, but the set bonuses are much worse.
I wanted to ask other shaman who are doing MH/BT and had 4 pc. T5 bonus, did you go for T6, or did you stick with 4 pieces of T5 to keep the bonus and just upgraded other slots? Is it worth losing the set bonus for the extra stats on the T6 gear? Thanks | |||||||||||
| #5272 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Skiace |
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| #5273 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Abakus |
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But for most matchups, i would recommend exec/mongoose, as crits result in many beneficial effects on most classes. More to purge means you might miss that one important BoP/BoF. As S3-Gear has some armor pen on it to stack with exec, imho just go exec/mogoose | |||||||||||
| #5274 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | panny |
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But I do agree that doing a full shock/twisting/totem rotation isn't possible due to GCD problems. | |||||||||||
| #5275 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Its possible, I was doing it on Teron Gorefiend on Sunday night. It wasn't exactly a full shock rotation though, but I would refresh the totems, stormstrike and then shock at whatever opening I had between those three actions. I was able to maintain it for about 3/4 of the fight I'd say before the mana usage overtook what the SR timer was able to produce. That was with JoW up as well.
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| #5326 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Paradox |
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it's all about the drop rates! | |||||||||||
| #5327 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
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Weapons play a very important a role in your overall DPS. For a while I had guildies with lower AP and crit who put out comparable dps due to better weapons. Good news here is you can be dual wielding 91.1 weapons after a couple hours of AV (no matter how bad you are). A good metric might be your unbuffed DPS while farming level 70+ non-elite mobs (say, the demons in Blade's Edge). I think I was about 350dps while farming when I first went to Karazhan. For a 16-dps raid to bring down Gruul in 8 minutes with no deaths will take an average of 442 dps per person. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/30/07 at 6:25 PM. Reason: Fixed the direction on the math | |||||||||||
| #5328 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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| #5329 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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| #5330 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Kombinat | ||||||||||||
| #5331 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Atren |
I want to see you do full dps to gruul 100% time. Furtheron 8 minutes is 16 growths -- if your dps is that bad i doubt tanks can survive that long.
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| #5332 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | anvilkicker |
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DPS, AEP, AP/STR/Crit all good, just some valid standard is what I'm after! THanks for some metrics to use! My guild is currently doing Kara, ZA, Gruul, and Lurker. eh, i need to get recount or something better at monitoring Damage Done and DPS! Thanks again! | |||||||||||
| #5333 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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Furthermore, as pointed out, 8 minutes is stupidly long time to kill gruul and will almost certainly result in tank death(s). Most guilds will kill gruul in 8-10 growths, therefor aiming to do a minimum dps of "444.6" is the most retarded way ever to kill a boss and shouldn't be posted as it's not helpful at all. Last edited by Mox : 12/01/07 at 7:54 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5334 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | vorda |
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| #5335 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
Yes, I agree. Back when I first killed him we took around 15 growths, but this was months and months ago before he had been nerfed. I was purely stating that no one should walk into a fight with the idea of doing the minimum dps required, everyone should be doing 100% dps which is alot more than 444.6.
Last edited by Mox : 12/01/07 at 8:11 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5336 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Hey how about we stop talking about Gruul eh?
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| #5337 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf | ||||||||||||
| #5338 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Foxx2405 |
I have a question here...
A few days ago my guild was clearing some bosses in SSC and usually im in a kinda default group of a fury warrior (DW), 1-2 combat sword rogues and 1-2 bm hunters... In such cases i just use windfury totem, no big deal there.... This time though the group setup was different.... We had 1 fury warrior, 1 feral druid, 2 BM hunters and me as enh shaman Now im logically following the advise this site gives, because it thrives on some excelent theorycrafting, which im not unfamiliair with... So in first case i was putting down the windfury totem for the warrior... However the feral druid, who also has a shaman alt, and knows a lot of the theorycrafting was kinda supprised that GoA in such a situation wasnt better... Basically only the warrior benefitted from WF totem... Whereas GoA totem was beneficial for: The warrior (crit), me (crit), the feral druid (crit + ap) and the BM hunters (crit + AP) and in a certain way the hunters pets too... So we have 5 people + 2 pets benefitting from GoA and only 1 from windfury... you could say 6 times as much I thought he had a solid point... i know WF totem adds a lot of dps for the warrior, but is it so much that it benefits "6 times as much" as GoA does ? I run into more of these situations where i think that the choice between the 2 is hard... 1-2 BM hunters nearly always run with the raids and benefit from my totems, and sometimes we have a combat dagger rogue so you get groups like: Fury warrior Enh Shaman Dagger rogue BM hunter BM hunter ------ I was just wondering what people's look on this is... is the "Warrior means WF totem" rule a must for all situation or are these "extremes" an exception ? | |||||||||||
| #5339 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Shabadu |
I think this is more a problem with your group setup. If you have 2 BM hunters, you're best building a Shadow priest/resto shaman/feral druid/2xhunter group and then building a warrior/rogue group around your enhance shaman. We're not seeing what other members you're bringing in order to build a group or 2 that maximizes the benefit of windfury.
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| #5340 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Rhagok |
I´m not totally sure about this, but does the BM Buff really stack? I mean, why don´t you just split the BM Hunters and give your Caster DPS another nice Dmg boost. This would definitely increase your DPS further besides the discussion about which Totem to put down.
And on this topic First of all why don´t you use both? So if you are not fond of Twisting, or you can´t / don´t like to do it, whatever reason ... I would in your No. 1 scenario in which anyone but the Warrior would benefit from GoA more then from WF use GoA. In scenario 2 considering the Rogue ... I´m not sure. Anyway, get your BM Hunters on different teams and go get some decent melee dps so you don´t come into really strange Situations like that ^ | |||||||||||
| #5341 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Patonus |
Has anyone done the math in regards to Stonebreaker Totem and its cooldown?
Is it better to spam shocks every 6 sec cooldown or is it better dps to wait for the 10 sec cooldown to occur to refresh the Elemental Strength? What I've done lately is spam shocks until I get the proc. Then, I wait the 10 secs before I shock again so I don't have to wait 12 secs instead. Or is this a common sense question and shocking every cooldown is better? | |||||||||||
| #5342 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Myul |
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
Uptime is lower then might expected. Around 35% on average, resulting in ~ 35 EP. Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I 10s internal CD. And last but not least, from the Post #1 in this thread: "Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds. Note that Stonebreaker has a 10 second hidden cooldown." Did you relly read through it? | |||||||||||
| #5343 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
Yes, it stacks.
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If you assume 35% uptime on the buff, you have a 35% chance of waiting 10 seconds instead of 6 seconds to shock. Let's use 1/3 uptime to make our math really easy: instead of shocking 3 times in 3*6 = 18 seconds, you shock 3 times in 2*6+10 = 22 seconds. So your shock DPS drops proportionately, to 18/22 of the original DPS, or 82%. The benefit you gain is that you take your uptime from that 35% number to ~50%. Instead of 38.5 EP, it's worth 55 EP. A ballpark number might say that you can get about 1 DPS from 4 AP, so that 16.5 EP difference is worth 4 DPS. Then if 18% of your shock DPS was more than 4 DPS, you did worse by waiting; i.e. if your shock DPS was greater than 22.2, you did worse by waiting. I can be wrong on the 4 AP->1 DPS conversion by a factor of 4 (and I don't find it at all likely that 1 AP will give you 1 DPS) and your shock DPS would still only have to be a bit under 100. That makes it pretty clear to me that if mana's no concern, don't wait for the Stonebreaker Totem cooldown to run out -- just shock when your shock cooldown is up. Last edited by Rob : 12/01/07 at 8:20 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5344 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Xoya |
What about in a situation where you are totem twisting, so you generally only shock once every 10 seconds, right on cooldown? Generally the totem buff has not fallen off at that point.
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| #5345 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Patonus |
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Rob on the other hand, understood what I was asking and answered my question. Thanks Rob! | |||||||||||
| #5346 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Patonus |
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I have been able to Totem Twist and still spam shocks more often than once every Twist rotation. WF - GoA - FS - SS - ES and repeat. Eventually the shocks catch up to the twisting cooldown and you either have to twist early or hold the shock till you are finished with the twist. It's when you do WF - GoA - SS - FS where you can't do another shock or the WF buff will expire due to GCD. | |||||||||||
| #5347 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Xoya |
Maybe I just need to rework my twisting macros, then. Currently I do SS -> WF -> GOA -> ES, repeat. I've been trying to work flame shock in there, so SS -> FS -> WF -> GOA -> ES, but it can be annoying remembering which one to use. Maybe I should just make a castsequence for FS -> ES. Hmm. Yes, time to go do that!
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| #5348 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Foxx2405 |
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First of all in this particular situation we didnt have rogues... We could move a hunter to a different group but that means we'd have to switch a mage / warlock back for it... Which seems to me to not be a super solution, and since the buff stacks, it doesnt matter really We normally have a decent group setup so that its fairly clear, im just talking about these extreme situtions ----- On totem twisting, yes ive used that for a long time, and at a certain moment it payed off really... But i found that for one it screws up with shock rotation, and on top there are certain situations where im on special duties, either purging or interrupting where i really cant use the twisting methode, so i have to pick 1 out of the 2 totems... I guess ill recreate my totem twist macro again for those situations where i dont need to do such thing (i lost all my macros in a pc crash so in the example i was mentioning i didnt have my totem twist macro at hand | |||||||||||
| #5349 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | cerberos |
True or false? Some myths need answers...
Hello all,
First of all gratz to this forum, as its a valuable vault of information World of Warcraft have many myths that users transfer them from realm to realm, so with your help, lets have some final answers ![]() The following is PvE Specced questions ![]() 01) Enh Shaman needs slow weapons. Ench Shaman with fast weapons, doesnt know to play at all. (true/false) 02) Enh Shaman best relic is Astral Winds (true/false) 03) Enh Shaman best relic is Stonebreaker's Totem (from Badges) (true/false) 04) Enh Shaman must have at least 200 Hit Rating, so he can produce serious damage (true/false) 05) Enh Shaman must have 150 max hit rating, so he can produce serious damage (true/false) 06) Enh Shaman doesnt need ap gems. He must have instead strength gems equipped (true/false) 07) Enh Shaman doest need much ap. After 1600-1700, is useless (true/false) 08) Enh Shaman doesnt need much Critical Rating. After 24-25% is useless (true/false) 09) Enh Shaman must play always with Strength Totem, Agility if he have Drood on the party else Wf for the rogues / tanks. (true/false) 10) Enh Shaman must enchant on weapon is +20Strength. Mongoose is useless for him (true/false) 11) Enh Shaman must enchants are Executioner + Mongoose (true/false) 12) Enh Shaman to be best equipped, must have equipment from other classes, like rogues for example. With only mail, Enh shaman cant do serious damage (true/false) Those were the biggest myths (?) i have heared till now Maybe some of them are true, some are false Just True / False, from someone who knows what he does![]() Sorry that all are for Enh shaman, i dont have knowledge for other specs ![]() Last edited by cerberos : 12/02/07 at 5:16 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5350 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
1) True for the first part, not necessarily true for the second part.
2) False 3) True 4) False 5) False 6) True 7) False 8) False 9) False 10) False 11) True 12) True for the first part, false for the second part. | |||||||||||
| #5401 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5402 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | tzenes |
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Syphon has 370.74 ep and Rising Tide has 370.74 + 73.4 ep Now the Syphon ep for off hand should actually be greater than 3.7 To be better than Rising Tide it would have to be 4.43 ep about a 20% increase. Now I don't know what the ep is for a 2.8 speed off hand, but I would assume that it is less than 20% off of a 2.6 speed | |||||||||||
| #5403 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ecomix |
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I tried the search thing twice and couldn't find what I was looking for, probably just search-dumb. | |||||||||||
| #5404 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | urotas |
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In the example, we had a shaman, druid, warrior, BM hunter, BM hunter group and the question was whether it would be more beneficial to use grace of air or windfury. This was an odd raid setup with no rogues, and personally I'd rather put a hunter in a melee group, than a mage/warlock who'd be losing wrath of air and a shadow priest. Would I be correct to assume, that the old "if there's a warrior in the group, drop windfury" would be more accurate as "Drop windfury, if there's a warrior in the group and at least one other benefiting from it"? Or would windfury still generate more dps for the whole group in this situation too? I'm also interested in knowing what would be the correct totem to use for maximum raid dps in some of the more borderline situations. For example: Shaman, sword rogue, sword rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter Shaman, sword rogue, dagger rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter Shaman, retri-paladin, rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter Could anyone point me to any threads with some more detailed theorycrafting on the benefits of windfury and grace of air to different classes? I know grace of air adds 121 attack power and 4% crit to me as a feral druid, which according to the ToskksDPSGearMethod calculator would increase my theoretical dps by a bit over 50. However, I don't know how accurate this is, and I have nothing to compare it with. A rogue or a hunter would gain 107 attack power and something like 2.4% critical chance from an enhancement shamans grace of air if I calculated it correctly. How big of a damage increase would this be compared to windfury on a rogue/warrior for example? I would appreciate if you could point me to the correct information source. | |||||||||||
| #5405 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
Without a doubt, drop Windfury if 2*Warriors + 2*Ret Paladins + Rogues > Feral Druids + Hunters.
Without a doubt, drop GoA if Feral Druids + Hunters > 2*Warriors + 2*Ret Paladins + Rogues. This leaves the theoretical borderline case where the sides of the equation are equivalent: e.g. {rogue, rogue, hunter, hunter, enhancement shaman} or even the {warrior, feral, hunter, enhancement shaman, caster/healer} that might occur in a 10 man group. Either way, there frankly is no 100% definitive answer for this situation: it will depend on how well-geared and well-played the various classes are; and if the Warrior in your group is tanking, whether or not he would benefit more from threat/rage generation or avoidance. Last edited by Rob : 12/04/07 at 5:56 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5406 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Lujaar |
Vulajin's math on WF vs GoA + Instant Poison for a combat sword rogue: Windfury Totem Change
His math shows about 60 DPS from GoA + IP, 80 from WF. for me, I got about 35 DPS out of GoA last time I checked. That was in T5 gear but I think Vulajin's calculations are for an approximately T5-geared rogue. A druid friend of mine ran the numbers through some druid spreadsheet or other and got 45 DPS in T5-ish gear for GoA. I'd expect a T5 ret paladin to gain 150-200 DPS from WF. Not only does it straight-up give them 20% more white swings, but as I recall the extra swings give them 20% more judgement procs. I'd assume they'd gain about the same as enh shamans from GoA. I've never seen real data on hunters, mut rogues, or warriors. The problem is warriors. A warrior's DPS gain from WF is going to be hard to calculate because of rage generation, and I've never seen any reliable math on it. If I remember right though, GoA clocks in at under 30 DPS for a T5-geared warrior. | |||||||||||
| #5407 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Jerem |
Using Cheeky's excellent spreadsheet, on a 7700 AC level 73 Boss (I selected Morogrim, because this is usually the fight for which my WWS parses are the closest to my spreadsheet-simulated DPS) :
With standard raid (damage) buffs (BoK, imp. BoM, LotP, GotW, Scroll of AGI, AGI food, flask of relentless assault) for me, and for my cat pet (obviously, same buffs, minus the flask, and agi food replaced by STR food), my simulated DPS is : Hunter : 1043.23 Pet : 475.8 = 1519.03 [my stats, with this setup, are 2307 AP, 34.63% crit, 100% hit] If I add an improved GoA Totem and an improved SoE totem (benefits the pet's PA), the simulated DPS becomes : Hunter : 1088.07 Pet : 541.04 = 1629.11 [my stats then are 2404 AP, 37.05% crit, 100% hit] This is with a never-wearing-off hunter's mark, 5 Sunders and a Faerie Fire on the boss (I didn't factor in CoR). The 1500 DPS number might be a little "over the top". I think the best I ever did on Morogrim (that means never being bubbled, and being extra lucky on crits, etc) was around 1200 (I probably forgot some obvious stuff in the spreadsheet's settings, but can't seem to find what). I have a T5 (or equivalent) gear, and I'm BM-specced (41/20/00). I use a standard auto-steady rotation, and replace Steady Shot by Arcane- or Multi-shot whenever they're up (I consider mana a non-issue : our Paladins maintain JoW, and I use mana pots every cooldowns). I use trinkets, Bestial Wrath and Rapid Fire whenever they are up, as well as drums (Battle/War). To fully evaluate the benefits of GoA for a BM hunter, you would have to consider that more AGI for the pet means more crits, hence more FI uptime (I think my FI uptime is about 96 or 97% currently). That contributes to the added value of GoA for the group's DPS. Hope it helps ... Last edited by Jerem : 12/04/07 at 8:49 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5408 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
[e] Wow I somehow missed all the posts between this and the one I replied to, this was at the guy asking about all the weapon combos.
I think you missed the other part of the OP where it says that RisingTide/Syphon is almost exactly identical to Syphon/RisingTide, and same for any other weapon combo. Its really not a big deal which hand you put which T6 weapon in. Last edited by Malan : 12/04/07 at 1:27 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5409 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Goldthorn |
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That being said, as soon as I get Syphon, it seems 375 Blacksmithing was a waste of time and money! Maybe Blizz will add some new BS plans in the future that become worth holding on to BS. Here's hoping. Last edited by Goldthorn : 12/06/07 at 10:30 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5410 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Teran |
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| #5411 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Varag |
To determine my weighting for the meta socket, I always assume that I'm going to socket a RED, and then take the value of my Yo! simulated APEP for agility adding 20 for the increased crit effect, which is what I believe the rogues chose as a value on another thread on these forums.
Last edited by Varag : 12/04/07 at 2:30 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5412 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
http://elitistjerks.com/566730-post300.html
Ok so, that guy didn't exactly have the largest data set available but... 75% uptime for dual executioner? Might be something to look at. We'd need a longer test done with an actual shaman though. | |||||||||||
| #5413 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Aeolian |
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| #5414 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
Like I've said, I repeatedly get 40%+ uptime with a single executioner enchant. 75% doesn't seem unreasonable at all with two of them.
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| #5415 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Beowolf |
@ Tornhoof:
I downloaded the latest version of your simulator today, and I also managed to get my hands on the Berzerkers Call from ZA. I was using DST and TT, but now I'm using DST and BC. According to the main article, BC is worth about 10 more EP than TT. However, with BC and DST equipped, your simulator is showing me LOSING 20 DPS. Is there an error with your calculation, or is the loss of hit and crit really affecting me that much? (I only have 13.75% hit, 1600 ap and 28% crit now). Just thought I'd check. Also, is your simulator taking into account armor penetration? I'm up to 420 passive + executioner enchant now. | |||||||||||
| #5416 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Aeolian |
Try using Yo!'s simulator.
And I believe it was 310 static armor penetration for executioner, something like that anyways, it was posted a few pages back. | |||||||||||
| #5417 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
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| #5418 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Difforgazm |
Sorry if this is already known but a new site is working on building an Enhancement item database type thing.
MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News just thought id point this out, as it seems like a fairly easy to use good site. | |||||||||||
| #5419 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | SentinelBorg |
No Flurry bug fix in 2.3.2:
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| #5420 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
I added a small section at the bottom of the post for raid leaders. Just some basic info on how to examine WWS and the Armory to decide if an Enhance shaman is up to snuff.
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| #5421 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bargle |
I did some math on it and found it to be worth ~313 armor penetration, assuming 36% uptime on the buff. I'll link the spreadsheet if I can find it later.
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| #5422 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Wundorn |
Original data on value of Str/AP vs. Agi/CR?
I have carefully read the entire OP, and the first 20 pages following. I do not think there are enough hours left in my life to read the entire thread. However, what I'm wondering seems to have been assumed (or demonstrated) before the first post. If anyone can point me to a good discussion of this I'd appreciate it.
My question is about the initial assumption that Str = 2EP, while Agi is = 1.8EP (give or take, and ignoring Kings). Here's a first cut at comparing the two. Assume I do N% non-crit and C% crit hits. My total dps would be on average D * (N+2C), for some D (right?). WF, flurry, UR, and item procs will mean that D has multiple possible values during a fight, but overall it should average out to some number that is the same for crits and noncrits. (Maybe not entirely, due to +AP procs on crits, but I think it's very close anyway.) Since additional crits mean fewer noncrits, increasing crit chance by 1% (25 Agi) should increase your total dps by D (it goes up to D * ((N-1) + 2(C+1)) = D * (N+2C+1)). The averaged "D" will be something close to your weapon dps plus your fully buffed AP, multiplied by the effect of flurry (say an avg. 25% for my toon, a little more or less depending on your crit rating, and see my closing caveat), multiplied by the effect of WF (an additional 36% less any inefficiencies in weapon speeds (?), plus an extra 475AP which I'll again leave out to simplify things), multiplied by (nearly) 10% for UR. I'm leaving out mongoose and other procs for now, and ignoring fights where you can't do constant damage, both because I think they have no impact, and because I want to keep this simple. Let's also ignore the OH weapon entirely, since both AP and crits will be subject to the 50% reduction, and therefore it's immaterial to the analysis. Similarly, I'll ignore stormstrike. So if M = my main hand DPS, then for my toon this is my simplified non-crit dps: D = (M + AP/14) * 1.25 * 1.36 * 1.10 = (M + AP/14) * 1.87 Now, recall that my overall DPS is D * (N+2C). This means that increasing my Agi by 25 (crit rate +1%) should directly increase my DPS by D. On the other hand, if I increase my Str by 25, the increase is: ![]() (M + (AP + (2*Str))/14) * 1.87
------------------------------ which reduces to
(M + AP/14) * 1.87
![]() 14M + AP + 50 ------------- 14M + AP Of course I've left out a lot of things... flurry uptime, UR uptime, add'l on-crit procs (if you have them), plus other things I've probably forgotten. These bring the equation closer to parity for Agi - but by how much? I have to believe someone else has already modeled this... which brings me back to my original question, can someone please tell me where the relative value of +Agi/CR versus +Str/AP was originally modeled correctly? Sorry for the long-winded post, it wound up producing unexpected results due to poorly-thought-out original assumptions. :-( -W | |||||||||||
| #5423 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Strength is worth 2.2 because 1 Strength = 2 AP = 2.2 AP with Kings. 1 point of Agility was valued using simulation to determine the change in DPS from steps in agility vs the same steps in attack power.
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| #5424 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
Malan -- great info. I don't get the bit about "flasks vs elixirs" being a reason for big differences in damage; Relentless Assault has only 10 EP more than Major Agility but on my server costs ten times more. Any non-progression raid where I intend to wipe fewer than 10 times, I use Major Agi.
In my experience, dps time is also a big determining factor in damage fluctuation, possibly equaling group makeup. Shamans who are talented runners, knowing exactly how far to run to escape some effect and when to run back, are going to put out more damage simply because they put in more time. I'd probably throw something up there about weapon speed (since I still see a lot of unenlightened shamans running around with epic daggers, and yes I was once one), and probably a blurb about off-specs as well (Elemental having slightly higher personal DPS and Resto making for better versatility). Question about DPS time: on fights with a lot of running, I generally hit Flame Shock as soon as I'm in range, then jam Stormstrike when I get close enough for that. This obviously increases my overall damage (since the shock cooldown is usually ready to go shortly after engaging the mob). But does it decrease the DPS stat? If I were "auditioning," would I be better off saving that first shock until after I had entered melee range? | |||||||||||
| #5425 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Right but a Major Strength and a Flask have a 50 EP difference. I was mostly just showing how it all adds up. Just because Shaman A has a T4 helm, and Shaman B has a helm from a T4 instance does not make them "almost equal", the difference in AP/Crit/Hit adds up over all those gear differences and really makes an impact.
DPS time - I think either way you're going to have 95-99% dps time anyways, not that big of a deal. DPS time really is just something to check out when a guy has 1200 DPS but only like 5% activity time. Its for your bullshit meter to start sounding alarms. | |||||||||||
| #5426 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Right but a Major Strength and a Flask have a 50 EP difference. I was mostly just showing how it all adds up. Just because Shaman A has a T4 helm, and Shaman B has a helm from a T4 instance does not make them "almost equal", the difference in AP/Crit/Hit adds up over all those gear differences and really makes an impact.
DPS time - I think either way you're going to have 95-99% dps time anyways, not that big of a deal. DPS time really is just something to check out when a guy has 1200 DPS but only like 5% activity time. Its for your bullshit meter to start sounding alarms. | |||||||||||
| #5427 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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PS: No, this doesn't significantly increase the EP for hit rating. I just ran a sim on my gear with NO procs:HR was worth 1.57, then a sim with Dragonstrike, dual Mongoose, Dragonspine and Hourglass: HR was worth 1.58. | |||||||||||
| #5428 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Pitbuller |
Dragonspine have 15s cd, hourglass proc on crits and have 45s cd.
If single executioner have 36% uptime dual executioner should have 1 - ((1 - 0.36) * (1 - 0.36)) = 1 - (.64^2) = 0.5904 = 59% uptime. | |||||||||||
| #5429 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
Pb -- it was my goal to research whether having a lot of procs available would change the value of hit rating in a dramatic way, and it looks like it doesn't. (Plus Mongoose is the more valuable of the four procs I tested and certainly doesn't have a cooldown).
Thanks for the math on double exec.; I have trouble setting up statistics problems. I'd ask my wife, but then I'd have to tell her what it was for. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/05/07 at 4:34 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5430 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Lujaar |
On the dual mongoose vs mongoose/exe issue:
Mongoose: 120 agi, 2% haste (~31 haste rating). I get about a 1.75 AEP value for both agi and haste. 151 *1.75 = 264 AEP Executioner: 840 armor penetration, which has about a .3 AEP value for me. 840 *0.3 = 252 AEP Both buffs last 15 seconds, and it looks like both enchants have the same proc rate. My stat weights are fairly typical and I'm getting that a mongoose proc has a higher AEP value than an executioner proc. It looks to me like dual mongoose beats out mongoose/exe. Am I missing something? Last edited by Lujaar : 12/05/07 at 7:23 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5431 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | SentinelBorg |
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| #5432 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | tzenes |
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318 given a 36% (as those were the two most likely candidates at the time) If you take the dps increase provided by the Executioner proc and multiply it by the uptime, and then attempt to find a value that gives the same increase with 100% uptime you will likely produce the same results (depending on the boss initial armor, I assumed full sunders and FF) Interestingly enough, at 25% uptime, it was closer to 200 than 240 | |||||||||||
| #5433 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mengus | ||||||||||||
| #5434 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Patonus |
BTW I made an All-in-one spam macro after talking about Twist rotations.
/castsequence reset=8/combat Windfury Totem, Flame Shock(Rank 7), Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, Earth Shock(Rank 8) What you will see happening is you'll go through the sequence and when you get to Earth Shock, you have to wait from the Flame Shock cooldown, then you Earth Shock and as you do that WF buff is about to fade and you refresh WF. Second time you go through the sequence, you then have to wait for Flame Shock to come back up and by that time the WF totem will refresh allowing a fresh 9 seconds and then you go into Grace of Air. It works out perfectly. Only difference is you lose 4 seconds of non Grace of Air-ness heh. | |||||||||||
| #5435 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5436 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | beetlejuice |
About Executioner and Mongoose VS 2x Mongoose
1. PvE I won't give you numbers or links to data but i had an increase in my dps in 25man raids since the moment i replaced one mongoose enchant with an executioner enchant. My raid rogues need to be focused 100% to be over my total dps and boss dps and sometimes they dont make it. Critical chance is a very strange thing. 2xMongooses will help a lot an entry raid enhancement shaman, boosting his crit chance from say 25% to even 35% occasionaly. However, at higher gear, an increase in critical strike chance from 35% to 45% wont give extremely different dps. I believe that if you are about 30% crit chance unbuffed you can dump one mongoose and get executioner enchant. Mongoose is overrated and in many raids my avg critical chance wasn;t much higher than my passive critical chance. 2. PvP We all have seen how Enhancement shaman performs in Arenas. Either he kills fast or crowd control kills him, especialy in 5v5 teams. I believe that 2x mongooses versus mongoose+Executioner won't have a difference in critical strikes in PvP situations, as the total time of a fight is extremely low, not to mention the "diminishing returns" of critical strike chance due to resilience. On the other hand executioner will give you a chance to do more burst damage on a target, catching enemy healers off guard, especialy with some nice windfury hits. About Enhancement shaman performance in raid Some additions. Things that you can't see easily about an enhancement shaman in raids. 1. How often he drops special totems due to special situations like poison, fear, fire/frost damage, direct spell damage. 2. If he re-put his totems in relatively new locations fast enough so that his group won't have a chance to lose any totem buff due to long range. Things you can see 1. How many times he interrupted enemy spellcasting. 2. If he used Bloodlust wisely considering his group and not his selfish dps thirst. Was the whole group ready to nuke? Was there enough time to fit Bloodlust in between special phases in bosses where you can;t focus on dps? etc. 3. Are his enhancement totems (Strength, Grace of Air, Windfury totem) improved with the appropriate enhancement talents? | |||||||||||
| #5437 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bragor |
Well if you want to see High end raid shaman dps here's a few parses :
Winterchill Anethron Kaz'Rogal Had one try on Azgalor but due to high latency I had to sit out afterwards (Blaming blasted ISP). Also after constant testing on the simulator I am still getting that 2xMongoose is superior to Mongoose+Excutioner. & You can't possibly say that crit won't benefit you after 30%... It goes into diminshing returns but it will always still benefit you. | |||||||||||
| #5438 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | tzenes |
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Right now our sword rogues are hitting 1600-1700 dps, and even in max gear my simulations don't get that high. Just the very idea that you could be on par makes me shiver. | |||||||||||
| #5439 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
Exactly what this thread needs -- a nice dose of speculation.
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You do 800 dps at 25%. Going to 35% will add 64 dps (800 * 1.35 /1.25 = 864). Going to 45% adds a further 64 dps (864 * 1.45 / 1.35 = 928). Obviously, 64 DPS is a smaller PERCENTAGE increase, going from 25 to 35 and 35 to 45, but it's the same AMOUNT of increase. Which may be why: ![]()
You are on the right track about the possible benefits for PvP, especially in arena. But let's get some numbers, huh? How much resilience are people stacking these days? How much crit are we losing? And how much armor are people stacking (Armor Penetration has more value at low armor than high armor)? Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/06/07 at 11:41 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5440 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Wundorn |
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Put another way, when your crit chance is very low (5-10%) the EP of Agi/Crit is going to be WAY HIGHER than it is once you're in epic gear. For realistic crit chance ranges for raiders, it's not a linear reduction, but the more crit you have, the less *actual* dps more crit will get you, not just the less *percentage*. Has anyone plotted this dps benefit change from crit chance 0-100% (and therefore, the change in EP)? This is related to my earlier question about how Agi/Crit was valued. | |||||||||||
| #5441 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bragor |
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Will try to find the excel sheet but it might be lost in a format or two . | |||||||||||
| #5442 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Hulkling |
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2. Versus any group with a healer, if you have seen how enhancement performs in arena, you would know that we migrate from a burst dps class to a long term steady burn. Because of resil, crit chance is extremely overrated in an arena setting, whereas reducing a clothie's armor to next to nothing is extremely valuable. When your crit rate is reduced to about 14% and the damage from that 14% is reduced by 20%, focusing on improving my non-crit attacks has worked out better for me personally. If we look at a drop in critical strike effectiveness due to resil, it would undeniably make up the very small difference in the EP values for both enchants. Sorry about the PVP tangent, but I felt as it had been brought up, it should be corrected. | |||||||||||
| #5443 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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![]() Crit DPS %Flrried Delta DPS Delta %Flry Crit EP Armor Pen EP ---- --- -------- --------- ----------- ------ ------------ 0 543 0 - - 5 584 13 41 13 3.74 .27 10 646 32 62 19 15 703 47 57 15 2.75 .26 20 755 59 52 12 25 806 68 51 9 2.21 .26 30 854 75 48 7 35 901 81 47 6 1.7 .26 40 946 86 45 5 45 990 90 44 4 1.6 .26 50 1032 92 42 2 55 1076 95 44 3 1.45 .27 60 1117 96 41 1 I'm not sure how the current Flurry bug affects all this (would love to have that modeled). ![]()
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| #5444 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
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Windfury = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^4.2))*100 Windfury + Stormstrike = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^4.4))*100 I estimated Windfury high and Stormstrike at contributing a criminally low value, but you get the idea of where this is going. Once you go past 30%-35% crit your contribution from increased Flurry uptime drops off considerably. | |||||||||||
| #5445 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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| #5446 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Bragor |
Remember that you gonna have Mongoose procs in game that will seriously skew the graph for you.
& in raids you gonna have mongoose procs unless you gonna go with non enchanted weapons to test it out ![]() EDIT: Just noticed that the OP doesn't have the EP values for Tier 6 geared shamans so did them : Considered full raid buffs with kings & with a flask. AP = 1 Str = 2 Agi = 1.52 Crit Rating = 1.72 Hit Rating = 1.64 <== Starting to catch up with crit in EP ? Haste Rating = 1.74 <== Becomes more important then Crit ? Armor Penetration = 0.28 Last edited by Bragor : 12/06/07 at 10:22 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5447 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Maybe I'm dumb and missed a patch note somewhere, but when the hell did Searing Totem start ignoring CC?
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| #5448 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bragor |
Think it was implemented with the priest's shadow fiend overhaul in patch 2.2 ?
Still bugs up thought & ends up hitting the target if you hit it first then it gets CCed. | |||||||||||
| #5449 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Horus |
sometimes it hits cc'ed mobs, sometimes it didn't. i've seen Searing hittin shacks and i've seen Searing ignoring sheeps. don't know, is kind of 'blizzard mechanics'
"its not a bug, its a feature"@All-in-One Macro: #showtooltip /castsequence reset=12/target/combat Stormstrike, Earthshock, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Flameshock /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); maybe 90 % windfury uptime | |||||||||||
| #5450 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
I've been dropping it right next to sheeped mobs in BT to test it, with no other valid target around and it ignores the sheep and only goes for it when broken.
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| #5476 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Malan |
Maybe I'm just not searching thoroughly but are there *any* helms out there without meta sockets that would be considered an upgrade from T4?
Also I just checked out the LootRank site and they've already added Melee Haste and done a quick fix in response to your post. | |||||||||||
| #5477 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Raut |
Only [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] or [Grimgrin Faceguard] as far as I can see(if it's an upgrade can be disputed). This from Armor - Items - World of Warcraft
May I ask why you don't want a meta gem? Edit: added the Grimgrin Faceguard | |||||||||||
| #5478 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Malan |
Its not that I don't want a meta gem, its that I want an upgrade from my T4 helm. (Partly aesthetic based, I despise how that helm looks)
According to Pawn with my EP values the Coif is about 60 EP better than T4, and the Grimgrin was a little more than that. But neither greater than the 80 EP that the RED is apparently worth. | |||||||||||
| #5479 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Raut |
Both T5, T6, [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm] and [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] are better, am I missing something essential in this train of thoughts?
Edit: Ah. RED. Never mind me ![]() | |||||||||||
| #5480 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Malan |
Yah obviously I'll pick up a helm with a meta socket when possible, but what I'm trying to do now is find an upgrade that I have immediate access to like something from ZA or whatever. We're only up to RoS and Bloodboil in BT so I don't have access to the later stuff, and I'm pretty low on the totem pole for a T6 helm (plus our first kill was last night so it would be awhile anyways).
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| #5481 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Raut |
Yeah. I assume you have stopped grinding T5 content and the arena and ZA gear is par with the T4 helmet at best. Best hope for luck with Archy tokens then.
But would you go for [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] instead of T6 if given the chance? Seen a few enhance shamans do that and I don't really have T6 content enhance gear to get numbers to compare them in Yo! | |||||||||||
| #5482 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Malan |
Yah the CVoS would be the ideal helm but obviously I'll have 2-4 rogues and a feral druid to compete against, not to mention that Illidan is going to be a few months away. Looks like the options for a helm past T4 are pretty slim pickings, very disappointing.
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| #5483 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Raut |
There is always [Forest Prowler's Helm]. Still four bosses down the road(if you have BB and RoS unkilled), but a nice item.
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| #5484 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Patrik |
T5 helm provided great service to me for some months, your guild stopped raiding SSC completely, Malan?
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| #5485 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | audy |
Haste rating vs amor reduction
hi, I'm a enhancement shamy and I would like some suggestion for my raid dps gear.
I raid with 4 pvp merciless gear to get 4 piece bonus set, with 100-126 hit rating (from belt, boots neck, pants) main hand weapon is Decapitator (mongoose) and my off-hand weapon is Fury (potency, (+20 str)) I'm about to get all the armor reduction gear from badges and ZA my guild run kara/Z'A (stuck on Dex lord Mala...)/Gruul/SSC I wana be top dps of our raid but with mage/rogue and hunter its really hard I wandering if stacking haste gear (rogue set from heroic badges) is better for me then stacking armor reduction... Taking in consideration that I duel wield with Windfury enchant on both weapons... haste rating will nerf my windfury proc rate since there is a 3 seccooldown... correct me if I'm wrong... you can check me out on armory for any sugggestion and/or feel free to e-mail me thanks = ) Last edited by audy : 12/10/07 at 10:39 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5486 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Quizzle |
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Probably a topic already discussed in another thread, and I don't like hijacking other people's discussions. Forgive me ahead of time. Much love to my Shaman sisters and brethren. | |||||||||||
| #5487 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Capital |
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You can easily compete with warriors, hunters, mages and warlocks, last one probably being the hardest. Not saying that I always beat them, but it's certainly not a clear cut case of them doing more damage. Then again, the only really "pure" dps class is a rogue, as they add nothing to a raid beside their personal damage. | |||||||||||
| #5488 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Nurru | ||||||||||||
| #5489 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | berg |
Yep. The problem is the relatively slow projectile. If that projectile is in flight while the target gets cc'ed it will break the sheep then the totem sees it as a viable target and keeps firing.
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| #5490 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ castille |
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You can do good DPS, but you really shouldn't be top. Your windfuries are capped with a 3 second cooldown timer, but all you're going to do is 'shift' the percentages of your yellow and white damage. With haste rating, you'll see more white damage and less yellow in the total percentage of your overall damage. Haste rating is not evil. Last edited by castille : 12/10/07 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Clarifying my wording. | |||||||||||
| #5491 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | audy |
so whats better haste rating or armor reduction?
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| #5492 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Illundai |
Yo's sim will answer that question for you.
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| #5493 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ castille |
Point for point, haste rating is. However, you usually get armor reduction in batches, and haste rating in tiny offerings. Of note is that Mongoose also doesn't use hast rating, but is a static 2% speed increase.
How valuable it is will entirely depend on your current gear, so you'll have to do some legwork there. I suspect that for most people, the amount of armor pen available will outstrip the amount of haste rating available because of ZA's increased availability of that stat vs needing access to BT to get haste rating. | |||||||||||
| #5494 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | • Weem |
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I'm glad to see that they fixed those problems so quickly. Unfortunately, haste is now bugged but I reckon they'll get that fixed in short order. Last edited by Weem : 12/10/07 at 1:52 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5495 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
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Last edited by Rob : 12/10/07 at 2:31 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5496 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | grado |
Hi all,
Over the last couple of weeks I've been reading the whole thread and grats to Malan and all who have contributed to it. I'm an Orc shaman and we're just entering BT, I was fortunate enough to have [Rising Tide] drop so I snapped it up, however, I see the Supremus drops the Syphon which is .2 Slower, so I have a conumdrum of which is better for me, does the slower speed and topend SS damage outweigh my weapon expertise? | |||||||||||
| #5497 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
I checked out that Loot Rank site just now. It will be a nice replacement for Thottbot and Lootzor (which has long since ceased being useful) if they can get the bugs fixed. (Specifically, haste rating and expertise rating are definitely not working properly at the moment.) I still don't get the seeming insistence these types of sites have with "normalizing" the scores. If they would just show me what the item would be scored based on my values, it would make it a lot easier to realize when scores for specific items are bugged in some way. Frankly, I hope Wowhead comes out with something soon that ends this problem once and for all.
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| #5498 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ujai |
I don't quite see why you do not like the Thottbot search function.
Basically what I do is run Yo's Sim, find my EP values, go to the Import/Export tab and copy the Thottbot link. Whenever I want to search for items again, I just use the adress my browser saved. As far as I can see, Thott also does not normalize the values, which I like. But maybe I'm just not into it enough to see what needs improvement. | |||||||||||
| #5499 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Weem |
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| #5500 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
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| #5551 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Fola |
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I tried searching armory to look at your gear to run the simulation, but I don't seem to be able to find your character on US or Europe. I couldn't find an armory link in your profile either. I would be curious also if you have any WWS charts that include the proc effect of the Syphons in a duel wield setup. Last edited by Fola : 12/12/07 at 2:16 PM. Reason: spelling | |||||||||||
| #5552 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Mengus |
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| #5553 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Nemaa |
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edit: Log from today's ~3 minute Teron fight 2315 damage Last edited by Nemaa : 12/12/07 at 4:50 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5554 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default + Changed default resistances to 0 as in game + Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer) + Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable) | |||||||||||
| #5555 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | spanko |
Two questions about the Sim Yo!. First how come Band of the Eternal Champion is there but greyed out? Second, any chance you can add [Berserker's Call] to the trinket options?
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| #5556 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Nemaa |
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Yo: Thanks for the update! | |||||||||||
| #5557 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | adversary |
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but anyway i think im going to probably do MH syphon and OH s3 | |||||||||||
| #5558 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Ok the Wiki is supposedly going live on Monday. The wiki article that I labored on months ago is horribly out of date and I really don't feel like bringing it back in line with this thread. So I'm going to just copy this over it and change everything over to the wiki format.
That said, I need to know how people feel about things, whether I should move/rearrange content around to flow better. Basically do things make sense organizationally? Also note that over in the wiki I will have Moderator status and can delete stupid posts. | |||||||||||
| #5559 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Disquette |
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| #5560 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Oscarwilde |
I'm interested in validating some AEP results from Yo's simulator for my shaman. as a reference, here are his stats:
Power 1322 Hit Rating: 134 Crit Chance: 26.61% Expertise: 0 armory: The World of Warcraft Armory what im curious to know is the break even point between crit and AP. according to yo's simulator, at my current gear level AP/strength is valued higher than my crit (running at ~27%) until I approach 2k AP unbuffed. I would think that 2k AP unbuffed is quite a high goal to reach, even being in BT. cutting to the point, am I truly getting the most DPS at my current gear level keeping 26% crit and 1.3k AP or, going against yo's simulator, would I get more out of 30% AP and 1.1-1.2AP? IE: am I reading/using the numbers right, or not taking into account the value of crit through flurry and UR ? :P Last edited by Oscarwilde : 12/12/07 at 6:35 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5561 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Pitbuller |
Test with Yo's simulator shows that mongoose > executioner with almoust any gear level. Highend raid values and Cor up its can be possible. With default values but scaling armor penetration you need 3200armor penetration to get executioned to par with mongoose. I would likely see if anyone will get Executioner > mongoose with own gear from Yo's sim.
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| #5562 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5563 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Karok(EU) |
Yo,
Will "use" trinkets be added aswell sometime? Currently they are ignored. And perhaps the new badge totem aswell? And ofcourse thanks for the update ![]() @ Oscarwilde: Its in the nature of %'s to scale. So the more AP you get the more valuable crit, hit, expertise, armor penetration (reduces enemy damage migitation by a % depending on its current armor) will become. 2k AP unbuffed will be quite high I recon, even in BT gear. However in a raid you can add a huge portion to that from raid buffs, procs, consumables and ofcourse your own str totem . | |||||||||||
| #5564 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan | ||||||||||||
| #5565 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
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| #5566 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
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1) Support expertise/expertise rating, both in DPS calculation and EP calculation. (When you do, I'd enjoy some commentary on how you're calculating EP as well.) 2) Allow people to select the number of talent points in Reverberation, Concussion, and Elemental Devastation. 3) Add Stonebreaker's Totem to the totem selection options. (Yes, we could just manually add 35 AP to our AP, but I'd rather use the interface.) 4) UI clean-up. This is the least exciting task probably. I'd suggest going to something like this: Tab 1: "Stats & EP Values" Tab 2: "Enchants & Procs" (move shocks/min to Tab 1 and move Talents to its own tab) Tab 3: "Talents" Tab 4: "Buffs & Debuffs" (allow us to set boss debuffs such as CoR, FF, SA on this page... probably move Boss Armor input here too, though I'm not 100% sure what makes the most sense from a design standpoint) Tab 5: "Import/Export" Tab 6: "Forensic Report" Obviously, any improvements you're able to make are always welcome, and thanks again for your service to the community. Technically, this only works nicely for the AP use trinkets... for Abacus, you'd want to take the haste percentage over time and add it as a static value. Not a really big deal though. Definitely at the bottom of my feature request list. | |||||||||||
| #5567 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
Edit: Posted one too many times. Delete.
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| #5568 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | SentinelBorg |
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I used following values for the simulation (5000 hrs): Stats top to bottom: 1700, 32, 21, 2, 4000, 250, 100.2, 2.8, 0, 100.2, 2.8, 0, 3, 6 Procs: Dual Windfury and Mongoose, DST and Tsunami, no Totem, T6 4pc, no shocks Buffs: Default with no Potion and active Battleshout With UR I get 1331 DPS, without 1324. If I manually add 200 AP it results in 1392 DPS. Also it would be nice if the nerfed proc chance of Ashtongue Talisman (50%) could be implemented. | |||||||||||
| #5569 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bragor |
Btw Seems that MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News is up for enhancement Shamans.
Most of the gear choices there provide the same choices as I got from Yo's sim. | |||||||||||
| #5570 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
How are they calculating that stuff?
MaxDPS.com - View topic - Enhancement Shaman Formulas There's the page with their formulas. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but look this bit from the Windfury DPS code. ![]() $procRate = ((1/$MHspeed)+(1/$OHspeed))*.20; [e] Ok I sent the site author an email and asked him to post here explaining how his system works. Its quite clear that he's not doing a combat simulation but his item rankings are *spot on* with what Yo's sim is giving me. [e2] If this is really as accurate as it *seems* to be at first glance, this guy has discovered some magical formulas that might actually enable us to just use a spreadsheet instead of a sim. Last edited by Malan : 12/13/07 at 9:06 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5571 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Xoya |
That sim seems to be undervaluing armor penetration, to me. Anyone else noticed this as well?
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| #5572 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Armor Pen on it looks fine to me, its saying with my stats that 10 armor penetration is a 7 DPS increase, which is much more than any of the other stats it shows. The item lists line up almost exactly with what my simulator EP values give.
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| #5573 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Xoya |
That's 100 armor pentetration, not 10.. when I divide the numbers out for my gear, I get:
1 str = .615; 1 armor pen = .0738 If we extrapolate into EP, where 1 str = 2.2, then armor pen = 0.264. For comparison, my numbers are what's on my Armory profile: 1560 AP, 118 HR, 31.48 crit, 37 haste, 3500 boss armor, 168 armor pen, 0 expertise rating, and 468 magic damage, with everything but Totem of the Astral Winds checked. Edit to add: in addition, if I increase my armor penetration to 1000, then armor pen becomes worth 0.28 relative to strength. Last edited by Xoya : 12/13/07 at 10:32 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5574 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Well note that the MaxDPS page is using 3500 as the default boss armor but Yo has it set to 4400, so the comparison might be off from that too.
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| #5575 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Lambach |
The main problem I've found with armor pen on maxdps is that it doesnt increase dmg from more armor pen based on how much armor pen you already have. So even if you get the boss to 0 armor, armor pen is still worth the same as having him at 3500 armor. Its just a static value based off your other stats.
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| #5576 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | • Disquette |
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He doesn't have the stormstrike bug implemented He has no section for raid debuffs I don't think he has enchants on there (mongoose/crusader) He makes no differentiation of offhand and mainhand WF procs due to weapon speeds He doesn't increase dual wielding WF rate to 36% (instead of 20%) His simulator is incredibly basic compared to Yo's. Interesting that your gear choices were the same. Last edited by Disquette : 12/13/07 at 11:08 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5577 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Malan |
Like I said, I sent him an email asking him to explain how he has it working.
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| #5578 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Disquette |
the formulas he's shown so far, on which I've based my objections and let him know:
MaxDPS.com - View topic - Enhancement Shaman Formulas Also, I just put in my stats. The only 2 differences between importing Yo!'s rankings into lootzor/thottbot versus this site (in terms of actual rankings) were ring and boots. This is for the #1 spot only. I didn't look at the rankings below the #1 spot. Also, this site is neat in that it lets us know that if we could use the rogue set armor, slayer's, that we'd have upgrades in 4 of the 5 slots compared to what's available now (and the 5th slot is the helm, in which only the Illidan drop cursed-vision is better than the slayer's gear). GG @ itemization. | |||||||||||
| #5579 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Unaz |
Most items won't shuffle around too much for us I'd imagine, unless they were already really close on stats. These quirks that define our dps are significant when added up, but when you look at items individually, they aren't going to easily push around the item order due to things like stormstrike missing based on main hand hits etc.
Also yeah, there's even some really nice feral druid stuff that I see popping up in thottbot item weight searches. ![]() | |||||||||||
| #5580 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
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| #5581 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ujai |
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What I find interesting though, is that this site puts the bagde leather items (with haste) MUCH higher than Yo's Sim would suggest. | |||||||||||
| #5582 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Kahdrick |
I've been following this thread for some time (long-time reader, first-time poster), and I haven't seen anything that mentioned additional gear for an enhance shaman, such as bringing a healing weapon and shield in case of emergencies. Frankly, these situations come up most often in 5-man heroics, and less and less often in 10 mans and 25 mans, but they still come up. Here are my thoughts on the matter:
Simply put: An enhance shaman should always carry at least a main hand healing weapon and a healing shield in their bags for use in emergencies. Here's my reasoning: Always carry a shield in case you need to off-tank a hard-hitting mob or for those "oh crap" situations where you either pull aggro or the tank dies. Combined with the 30% damage reduction from shamanistic rage, you should easily be able to survive for 30 seconds just as well as any tank (ample time for a tank to get the threat back if you stop attacking, or for someone else more suitable for long-term tanking to get aggro). In cases where you do pull aggro - STOP ATTACKING. Just spam LHW on yourself and hope you don't die. If you keep attacking, your threat will skyrocket (especially now that you've popped shamrage) and it will be that much harder for someone to pull the mob off of you. You may even want to carry two or three shields, if bag space is not a concern for you. One shield for elemental dps use in situations where melee is impossible (time to kill Krosh Firehand and Maulgar is in the middle of WW), one shield for healing (a healer died, or your healing just needs a little push for a while), and one shield for off-tanking (oh shit!). I've found that by far the most use I get out of a shield is healing, and the 2nd most is tanking. I almost never do elemental dps. Thus, I recommend carrying only one shield, a healing shield, if bag space is a concern. This will still provide the armor mitigation (significant mitigation) and will allow you the +healing stats you need for healing, without providing the very modest +block and +block value increases. Additional MH weapons for use with a shield are also good. When tanking, your highest dps weapon will also be your highest threat generation weapon, so you don't need a separate weapon for that. In oh shit situations, you shouldn't be attacking, so it doesn't matter what is in your main hand (remove your weapon completely in case you die so that you save gold on repairs). For elemental dps, you will want a +damage weapon, but since my experience is that enhance shamans almost never use elemental dps, there's really no need to take up your bag space with this. Thus, you should carry a healing MH item, which are easy to find. Since the item will primarily be used for spot heals and emergencies, enchanting it with +81 healing will be more beneficial than spellsurge - you will still be wearing your enhance gear, so mp5 won't help that much - you're not going to be an effective endurance healer anyway. When healing, you can continue to dps. If mana is a concern, stop your shock rotation, but maintain stormstrike and auto-attack since those cost little mana (or are free) and cause a large portion of your damage %. Sure, dps will go down due to the fact that you're not using your melee weapons, but if you prep your healing weapon with WF or FT, it'll still proc (do this before encounters, not during them - the buff lasts for 30 minutes, so you have plenty of time to do it). Also, your swing timer will likely be up each time you finish a heal, so even if you spam heals a swing will occur. It's best to make a macro that swaps your MH and OH for your healing weapon and shield, and another macro that swaps back, and keep those on your hotbars or bound to easy to reach keys. Swapping back is particularly annoying because most off-hand weapons for a shaman are actually "One-Hand" and simply left clicking the item from your bags will swap it with your Main Hand weapon instead of with your shield. Edit: Yakout makes a great point below. When I wrote this, I wasn't even aware that there were any off-hand caster weapons left in the game. Gotta get me one of those! Last edited by Kahdrick : 12/13/07 at 5:55 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5583 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yakout |
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(Yes, this also applies with spot-elemental DPS'ing, but that is, as you noted, an almost non-existant thing.) | |||||||||||
| #5584 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Paradox |
Using my stats on the java sim and 2000 hours, I imported my aep values into Enhancer, which gives EP values to items based on the aep values from the sim, this is something i'm a bit perplexed about though, it tells me.. well, see for yourself: http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2...ntrightdp5.png
Why is it telling me that this inferior chest is better? Thanks | |||||||||||
| #5585 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Rapparee |
I agree with Kahdrick, just didn't think this was the thread for discussion of such things. But it is something that Malan may consider putting in the first post, since he's got an "evaluating a shaman for your raid' type section.... sorry I didn't have the exact wording.
Personally, I don't use "whoops i've pulled aggro" shield + weapon macro. Aside from High King Maulgar, all other bosses would have one-shot me when i was wearing gear appropriate for fighting them. Perhaps... just perhaps, I could survive a hurtful strike from Gruul today, if I was wearing a shield and had 13k life + shamanistic rage. I do however, always carry my healing shield + healing weapon. Though i'd be better served with a second one-handed weapon with +81 healing enchant on it... currently any weapon with 81 on it is better than any shield when you're only casting 1 or 2 heals per fight. However, that's pretty damn expensive. I heal with macros that read like this: /cast lesser healing wave /equip merciless gladiator's salvation /equip aegis of the vindicator /equip totem of the plains I may have a typo in that macro, not sure. And actually I use Clique to have that macro cast when I press "Shift + left click". I have another macro /cast healing wave /equip merciless gladiator's salvation /equip aegis of the vindicator /equip totem of spontaneous regrowth And finally there's one for Chain Heal that includes totem of healing rains. I actually use all three types of casts during Archimonde encounters. I'm in the melee group with tremor totem down, and we're normally swinging at Archi's tail. If there are two doomfires visible on my screen and tremor has just released me from a fear.... I know that there's at most two healers in range and unfeared for the MainTank, I spam LHW, then HW on the tank regardless of what the tank's life looks like. We've had a bear of a time controlling doomfires, and more times than I like to count, 2 or 3 of us in the melee group get DF. I have to stop meleeing anyway, due to all the fire, so I simply spam chain heal to lessen the healing burden on others. Sometimes on trash in the orc encampment I need to heal in the situation where most of the raid is off on the gargoyles, the tank near melee dies, and soon after our healer dies.... I'll have to finish that wave healing while those two guys run back. I'm not saying this happens every single week... it's just that when it does happen it sucks to wipe in Hyjal and essentially waste 30minutes reclearing the waves. So those are two easy to spot times, when you can either predict healing or have time to react and heal. BT doesn't have as many times like this.... You can heal melee during the kite phase of supremus, but they can just as easily bandage or grab a HoT during that phase...heck even healing stream could probably fill them up. Also for that guy 3 pages ago doing void reaver.... Get 3 shaman and have them stand in the pounding along with the tanks and melee. 2 of them resto, spamming chain heal. One of those resto is in the main tank group with windfury totem down. 1 of them enhance with tranquil air totem in the melee dps group. No one ever moves out of the pounding area. | |||||||||||
| #5586 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Kasi |
I as an elemental shaman have survived being hit by several bosses. Supremus and Theladred come to mind. Although neither was due to pulling agro, more dealing with proximity on switches. Having a shield would give you a substantial amount of mitigation, especially with SR. Whether you can use your macro and have SR ready to pop when it happens is the much more difficult question.
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| #5587 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
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Is this assumption valid? That's for us to determine, and so far I ALSO found to more or less model what I have discovered using Yo's/Thottbot. I think it's interesting these guys are using "DPS" as a sort of relative indicator similar to EP but more accessible and potentially more useful. If you don't expect that "this is your DPS" line to be anything more than a relative indicator, this site is an intriguing new tool. My biggest problems are that he's missing some gear, that there's no option to remove BoP gear from professions you don't have, that it offers quest and rep rewards that are faction specific to everybody. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/13/07 at 3:11 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5588 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Malan |
paradox - Just a guess, but the EP values on those tooltips might not be considering the gems correctly.
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| #5589 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Paradox |
Is that something I should report to the Enhancer developer then? I don't think it has anything to do with RatingBuster which just gives the summary and isn't included in any calcuations as far as I can tell.
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| #5590 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
Enhancement Itemization Points != EP values. Personally, I turned them off and only use "AEP."
Think about it, man -- if the item has 166 AP, how the heck is it going to have less than 100 EP? EIP is some other kind of analysis, which I don't understand but assume (from the name) is a breakdown of how much of the item's itemization budget was spent on Enhancer friendly stats (rather than stuff like Int, Stam or Resilience). | |||||||||||
| #5591 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Paradox |
What is it you "use" for "AEP"? All I have for the stat weights is Enhancer.
Another question about the stat simulator.. when you add a trinket, say the hourglass, is that just the proc on the hourglass or does it add the crit rating too? | |||||||||||
| #5592 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
Paradox: the crit is already added to your paper doll stats, so no it just adds the proc.
As for Enhancer, I turn off the display of every stat weight system EXCEPT for AEP. I get my EP from Yo's. I enter it using /enhancer EPNumbers AEP CrazyShamanStats <stat weights>. Incidentally, I'm a little bugged about Enhancer's rounding system and the fact that it defaults to a high-end raid value for meta gems. My hit rating is worth 1.56 and my crit rating 1.64. Both of these round to 1.6, and so Enhancer things Crit Rating = Hit Rating. That, combined with the meta gem thing, leads it to suggest that [Helm of the Claw] is an upgrade (I'm fairly certain it isn't). | |||||||||||
| #5593 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Disquette |
If he wants to have a rudimentary tool that is mostly good, then he's got it right.
If he wants to help people achieve MAXDPS.com, then he doesn't have it right. When I see the name that the site has, along with gear recommendations in front of people, which will occasionally result in someone choosing the wrong piece of gear, I have a logic problem with that. If some n000blet goes to the site and finds out that with his 1.3 daggers he really needs to load up on +hit (because the site doesn't respect the 3 second cooldown), then the site is doing a disservice by a) not showing how bad his dps really will be and b) recommending more +hit so that WF will proc more. Can't WF unless you hit! ![]() | |||||||||||
| #5594 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Malan |
If you use Pawn and just change the string provided in the OP, you don't have to deal with most of that sillyness.
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| #5595 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | BoinKlasik |
I actually disagree with spamming LHW, it heals for so little over what you get hit for even with SR up. I would rather take my chances with my combined dodge/block/parry/miss in a raid setting and let the healers do that job instead.
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| #5596 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Paradox |
Is it better to just disable enhancers AEP values option and use Pawn for that then? Like you said, just changing the values of the string in the OP to that of the simulators?
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| #5597 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Weem |
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| #5598 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yakout |
Yo's simulator is producing some... odd results. Something is definitely amiss with it, as I'm consistently getting EP values in the 6-7 range for all non-AP/Str stats except APen, for which I'm getting around 1.
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| #5599 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | drats |
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| #5600 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
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As for hit rating: using 5-man dungeon stats (1000 AP, 15% crit, 15% hit), your "DPS per 10" ratings are Hit Rating: 1.60, Crit Rating: 2.73, Strength: 4.18 with 1.3s weapons, vs 1.77, 2.85 and 4.38 for 2.7s. So actually, it's upvaluing HR with SLOW weapons (just checeked, yo's does the same) -- but it's also making it blatantly obvious that strength and crit rating are more important. Does the site suggest maximum DPS? The gear this site claims is best is the SAME as the gear other methods claims is best, so maybe. As an armor upgrade selection site it does really well even though its weapon choices are off. However, I don't think it's impossible to find some way to generally express the 3s cooldown's effect on DPS in a flat equation -- say, each .1s of speed beyond 1.3s is worth 1.2% additional damage -- derived from simulations. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/13/07 at 4:59 PM. | |||||||||||
| # | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Joy |
-edit
Typo my end. Last edited by Joy : 12/13/07 at 6:13 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5602 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Disquette |
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I just guessed that the faster weapons would over value hit. I was wrong on that (and am still pretty surprised by that... I'll have to think more about why that is), but since it was an example of a possible outcome, I don't think it matters. As for it recommending gear improperly, I already showed 2 examples (ring and something else, in an ealier post) where it ranks them wrong. Well, wrong if you consider Yo!'s sim to be a more accurate test. I know I sure do. | |||||||||||
| #5603 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Disquette |
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There ya go toots, another good example of bad gear ranking from the site. | |||||||||||
| #5604 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
Well, what are your other stats looking like? That Brooch doesn't show up on my list until I enter an absurdly high value for unbuffed crit rating and an absurdly low value for hit rating, like 42% with 0% hit. In which case the extra crit on the choker would be pretty useless, the hit would cancel out, and you'd be effectively comparing 1.25% additional hits vs 72 AP.
You aren't entering raid buffed values in those fields are you, are you? It's looking for your un-raid buffed paper doll values for crit percentage and hit rating (yo's expects a hit percentage). Disq: I feel that, due to a general trend towards good gear suggestions, this site could be really useful. In the areas where it fails, I'd rather provide constructive feedback than write it off as unreliable. In any event, I'll still be using Yo's to dream up and test hare brained new gear combos -- it's an uncanny resource. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/13/07 at 5:22 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5605 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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Rest of the items are 99% identical to my thottbot lists, with afew differences such as belts, but that because thott doesn't have expertise yet. Although it would be nice if the site would cache or have a save option for your inputted values. | |||||||||||
| #5606 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Atren |
Hit rating does not support faster weapons without cooldown due to fact that WF is normalised by flat proc rate. Meaning it will be equal for all speeds without cooldown. The reason why slow weapons still pull ahead is SS.
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| # | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Unaz |
Item lists
Ok, I maintain a list here for my own reference as to which bosses I need/don't need, and haven't updated it since ZA to see what's new. Also, now that I'm finally in BT and have access to Epic gems, that changes the weights on some items for me, with some gemmed items overtaking non socketed ones.
So using Loot Rank and Maxdps, I made a double chart of top items for each slot (for me) with base weighted values for the gem slots, and then maxdps did it's own thing with socketing epic gems and weighting based on my stats (mix t5/6). Now I know maxdps has formulas that are still under construction, and I may tweak it again later, but these items feel pretty solid to me as to their rankings. I know that a lot of you prefer to run a sim based on gear changes, which may effect a few items, but I'm fairly comfortable with generating a list and going by that, and hopefully this will help others as well. The one issue I did have, which seems to mainly effect gloves, is expertise rating. I think I may have over-weighed it, and will have to look into it more later. I also made an effort to extend each list far enough to include at least one boe crafted or pvp/badge item. Which means that at least one item in these end game gear lists should be obtainable by anyone without relying on luck. I couldn't really do it with rings though, so the pvp rings are your best bet most likely. Ideally a person can essentially get top 10 gearing without needing to rely on a random drop by using these lists. Loot Rank URL used * I don't remember where I got my expertise rating from, it may be wildly inaccurate. Thottbot URL (Used it to verify at first, but lootrank came out even enough that Thott wasn't needed) ![]()
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Last edited by Unaz : 12/31/07 at 5:47 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5608 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Kahdrick |
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edit: doh... grammar. Last edited by Kahdrick : 12/13/07 at 6:36 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5609 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Joy | ||||||||||||
| #5610 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Everything you just listed in that huge post is fully explained in the OP for people to do on their own.
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| #5611 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Polar |
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Loot Rank has been up for around 1 week now and we have fixed the expertise rating and haste rating calculations. We do not normalize the scores since it is such normalizing tends to confuse rather than help (and also allows for easier checking of score accuracy). Polar Lootrank author | |||||||||||
| # | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Disquette |
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I don't just complain, I've done my best to help the site author fix the problems. It's in his court now. I hope for all of our sakes that he does so. It's the same that I've done with each sim or calculator where I've been able to see the code - Pater's Mine Friedrick's Yo!'s Enshamulator (I forgot the author's name) an Excel based on that's faded into obscurity. I really do try to help, and put effort into it. I know my critiques seem harsh, but after going through my 7th simulator now, and finding some of the same issues, but in this case worse, than in the previous 6, I don't have the effort left in me to sugar coat my critiques. That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the authors' efforts immensely. Having made one of these myself, and not even building the functional and pretty front end that enshamulator, Yo!'s, or maxdps's does, I can really appreciate how hard these people work on them. ![]()
This makes a lot of sense, thank you. | |||||||||||
| #5613 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Lethnon |
Just looking over the first post. In short, it says:
[Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] 97.5 DPS (MH: x9.03 = 880.4) (OH: x3.70 = 360.75) +27 Stamina Equip: Improves hit rating by 10. (x1.4 = 14) Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19. (x2 = 38) Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12. Equip: Increases attack power by 30. (x1 = 30) Total MH EP = 962.4 Total OH EP = 442.75 [Netherbane] 96.5 DPS (MH: x9.03 = 871.4) (OH: x3.7 = 357) +25 Agility (x2 = 50) +21 Stamina Equip: Increases attack power by 40. (x1 = 40) Total MH EP = 961.4 Total OH EP = 447.05 Comparing the two weapons we can see that the difference in the MH for each weapon is relatively minor with a 1 EP difference, but in the OH the Netherbane performs better with a 5 EP difference. And... OH = [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] > [Fury] > [Fool's Bane] > [The Decapitator] > [Runic Hammer] > epic dagger or anything else faster than 2.4 So if [Netherbane] outperforms [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] as a OH, why isn't it listed in the choice OH section? I assume this was a simple oversight, so I thought I would bring it up. Move along citizens, nothing else to see here. | |||||||||||
| #5614 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Lethnon |
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Two points to try to help out: 1 - can there be an option for limiting gear to a certain armor type? I try to stick with mail when possible (ducks from the pro-leather based comments) and removing leather options would be nice. 2 - I notice it crashes it when you replace numbers you don't need in the stats by using the space bar to clear them. I had to go back and delete the space in order to get the list. Just FYI for bug fixing (or anyone else who tried using it but crashed like I did) | |||||||||||
| #5615 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • stabbymcgee |
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| #5616 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Daagar |
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Much appreciation to both Nuuga and Disquette for hashing it all out. As great as Yo's sim/Loot Rank are, as a casual player maxdps.com is great for a stuff-in-my-stats-and-get-suggestions out without needing to do a lot of leg work (ie., yes I'm lazy). | |||||||||||
| #5617 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Its not listed because that section on Offhands was intended to tell people where they could quickly pick one up and compare them, the idea was not to list each and every single OH. It was one of the original portions of the post that was trying to inform people to use slow weapons.
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| #5618 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Lethnon |
Ahh. Makes sense
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| #5619 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | nuga |
Hey guys,
I'm the author of MaxDPS.com and just wanted to let you know that the page is in beta. I'm working very hard trying to make it as accurate as possible, and I realize that peer review is the only way to do so. I'm willing to open up any part of my code if it will help the site become more accurate. If you're willing to help (As Disquette has done, thanks!) - rather than muddle up this thread/forum, feel free to drop me a line or post on the forum on my site. To respond to one thing in particular that was posted: ![]()
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As you can see, I'm constantly working on the site trying to make things better. But as it is in Beta, please use at your own risk. I'm trying to help, not harm, the community. ![]() | |||||||||||
| #5620 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Unaz | ||||||||||||
| #5621 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Meli |
Hello
First of all escuse my english thats not very good. I'm french, so I'll try to make my best. Thanks for this tread that I find very interesting. I couldn't read the whole tread because there are to many pages and it'll take me to much time. I have a Shaman as you can suppose. With my guild, we have clean SSC and we are in front of kael'thas that (I think) will be down soon. So I've begin to look at item that are dropped in BT and Hijal. My shaman is currently (unbuff) : 1592 AP 30,01% crit 112 hit The most interesting items in BT/Hijal has a lot of crit/agi but not a lot of AP/force or hit in comparaison with T6. My question is: Does it exist a cap crit or is crit/agi always so interresting when you have a lot of it? Have we to consider crit as < than 2EP after a specific value? I'm surprised that force/AP as not a higher value after the 2.3 that make increase the horion damage with the AP. Could you explain? Sorry if the aswers are somewhere in the thread and thank a lot for aswering. | |||||||||||
| #5622 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | xkaziex |
Hello Everyone!
I am a first time poster, and knowing how things are done around here ill get right to the point. For quite some time i have used the information on this thread as a form of refference, at best a very solid base to maximize what I do as an enhancement shaman. I have found that while there is a lot of mathematics that have been shown here, there are things that dont translate very well to actual practice. My main question is regarding Hit Rating as a whole. I'm not looking for a specific number, because there honestly isn't. To illustrate my point I need to give a bit of an explanation first. AEP is currently being used as a form of measurement for the potential DPS of particular items, and lately I have begun to question the exact accuracy of these numbers - though admittedly its under a different light. Im sure like myself, to all experienced ENH shamans, gear upgrades wont often times be about the individual piece vrs another, but instead the synergy between the new gear upgrade and the rest of the set you have created for yourself. Having a PvP set and a PvE set has allowed me to shift some stats and do some testing for myself on how much of an effect hit currently has. I am not here to show crazy math, Im actually here to get you geniuses look into this since you have more tools than i do. Here is the Dilema: The difference between my PvP set vrs my PvE set stats wise is +50atk, +.4 crit - 35 hit for PvP, where as my PvE is obviously -50atk, -.4, and +35 hit. In short my DPS with my pvp set is lower. Now, to some it may seem obvious but here is the thing: Per AEP calculations each piece that i replaced (a total of 2) was replaced by a higher AEP value piece, however the overall result was lower DPS. I realize that hit may become more crucial vrs certain mobs..and there are a few of them, but even stepping down to Gruul's/Mag to do some DPS testing the differential in DPS totals per recount/sw was +- 50 DPS, sometimes a little higher, all in favor of the PvE gear. For those of you who will have this question, my total + hit with PvE is at 173, where my PvP is at 138. I have read in numerous places (mind you, as obvious opinions) that a "good" + hit is around 120, but frankly, from what I am seeing in actual results, it seems to me the sweet spot is between 175-200, which i realize it seems like a lot. Part of my concern is that around the SSC part of progression which is where im currently at; the variety of upgrades offer a crit and a atk power boots but at the entire cost of +hit on the item replacing. Most items at this level have anywhere between 15-18 +hit on them, so its roughly 1% hit (sometimes more sometimes less) that is being lost to items that on paper, due to higher ATk and crit values, have a higher AEP number. I realize that many of you will ask for examples, and I intend to add 2 items for questioning as soon as i find out how to do links where the item shows. If not ill just write down the stats. If anyone has noticed, or perhaps is curious to analyze this, please do so. Im sure any/all results will be posted here. ok here is a good example. Cataclysm Gauntlets (143.92 AEP) vs Tricksters Stickyfingers (152.20 AEP). My issue is sitting at 173 +hit (and I have all talented bonuses for +9 total) loosing 1 percent actually lowers my DPS by loosing 25 + hit, where the gain on paper for the tricksters doesnt make up for it (i hope that makes sense). If i figured out the AEP wrong, please let me know, otherwise - for theory craft, has anyone considered having certain +hit thresholds not necessarily based on gear but perhaps a reflection of the content you are in? or does it seem completely unrelated? Buffed, passed 2400+ ATK, and over 35 crit (before procs), the 50 gain in atk really doesnt seem to stack up to loosing 1% of hit in what i am seeing. For actual DPS numbers I can hover between 1050-1130s in DPS In PvE gear, while in -hit gear (PvP) it was between 970-1070's DPS. These results were consistant over 3 weeks of Gruul/Mag. Apologies if this seems a bit long winded. | |||||||||||
| #5623 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Pitbuller |
Using same values comparing to maxdps to Yo's
MAXdps: ![]() Attack Table Miss: 28.0 % Dodge: 5 % Glancing Blow: 25 % Hit: 17.0 % Crit: 25.0 % ![]() Attack Table Miss: 28.0 % Dodge: 5.6 % Glancing Blow: 25 % Hit: 19.4 % Crit: 22.0 % dodge is 5% instead of 5.6% crit is 25% instead of Yo's 22%.(what is right value?) MAXdps dps list. ![]() Current Stats White DPS: 239.93 Windfury DPS: 229.23 Stormstrike DPS: 75.10 Earth Shock DPS: 50.91 Flame Shock DPS: 60.11 Total DPS: 655.27 ![]() Current Stats White DPS: 237 Windfury DPS: 178 Stormstrike DPS: 68 Shocks DPS: 104 Total DPS: 588 Windfury damage is way too high. Almoust +30% too high. Stormstrike damage look almoust OK. Shocks damage is good. Cant say how MAXdps value SS debuff. | |||||||||||
| #5624 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
I fail to see how you can be doing less DPS with 50 ap .4 crit vs 35 hit, and I really think Gruul/Mag are horrible fights to cite for testing. There are a ton of elements to DPS like raid/group composition, boss abilities, and buffs. With such a small sample size (3 may seem like a lot but it is pretty insignificant) and I find it very difficult to believe that 1% hit makes a 5% damage difference. As you progress through content your hit drops, I was at ~200 hit rating during Gruul/Mag(THANKS SEBUDAI), 150 through SSC/TK, and to my current 110(which will be back up to 150 RNG willing). Many, many people have came here and had revelations about how insignificant hit is, myself included, it is best to embrace countless hours of work and simulations instead of fighting based on a very minimal sample size on very random fights. | |||||||||||
| #5625 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Atren |
I keep forgetting to ask one addition to Yo simulator -- could you add 4-set bonus of Arena set (9 sec SS) to it?
Also does anyone know if Ashtongue trinket has any cooldown to prevent back to back SS with 9 seconds? | |||||||||||
| #5626 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Atren |
I keep forgetting to ask one addition to Yo simulator -- could you add 4-set bonus of Arena set (9 sec SS) to it?
Also does anyone know if Ashtongue trinket has any cooldown to prevent back to back SS with 9 seconds? | |||||||||||
| #5627 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Yo!, are you using the same PPM for Executioner as for Mongoose?
I did a lot of short run sims this morning trying to figure out if I wanted Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner with my new weapon setup (Syphon/Tide) and was showing Executioner/Mongoose as about equal with Mongoose/Mongoose, but Executioner/Executioner was a 10-20 DPS drop. | |||||||||||
| #5628 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | xkaziex |
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Your response again, somewhat illustrates the problem that im talking about. Yo's simulator is awesome, but assumes a certain controlled environment that is very difficult to achieve. No one works like a computer so peoples ability to adjust, overall gameplay (meaning how they usually play in general) and reaction times are going to come into play. This is why i dont compare myself to other enh shammans when im trying to determine my own outcomes, instead I do it agasint myself since i will have a higher consistancy between fights. Gruul is simply a melee fight for me, nothing else to do. Mag past the channelers is the same thing, with no cube assignements you just sit there and DPS - (needless to say i reset my own meters when fighting gruul. It would be different if i was discussing dmg totals, but instead its dps which if you can sustain for more than 2 minutes and not running out of resources, its likely you can maintain that for quite a while. Again, sorry if this comes off as being argumentative, i just am of the opinion that you cant draw accurate parallels between a simulator and actual practice. (will never deny is a damn useful tool though) I will admit though - it is possible that there is a relation to how much atk/crit total you need to have to overlap certain potential DPS drawbacks. Not talking directly like 50atk vrs x amount of hit, but more so.. if you have 1500 atk (for instance) that going +-25 hit doesnt make a huge difference, where as doing the same with say 1100 atk will. I hope that makes sense. Last edited by xkaziex : 12/14/07 at 11:10 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5629 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
Gruul is a terrible test fight. Even if all you do is dps, with all that running, avoiding cave ins, trying to stay below the second tank, you're never going to be doing your best.
You want to test your DPS, go to the bear boss in ZA, go to Kara and beat on Attumen. High armor, high health, pretty much tank & spank. A big sample set smooths out strings of luck. By the by, I'm down to 63 hit rating, 28% crit, 1464 AP. JUST NOW is hit rating approaching the value of crit rating on Yo's (1.58 vs 1.64). I miss all the time and my rogues laugh at me. The ones who out damage me, anyway. | |||||||||||
| #5630 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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Soon as Grips of Damnation finally drop I'll get them + the swiftstrike shoulders to replace my 2 pieces of T6, that'll put me around 150 hit too, which imo I would never go below. [e] Grr just realised the shoulders are BoP LWer.. thought they were same as the bracers .. Oh well that screws that plan guess I'll stick with the T6! Last edited by Mox : 12/14/07 at 2:11 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5631 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Areus |
Malan: From what Yo! posted earlier I believe he said the Executioner was the same procrate as Mongoose.
From my own experiance with +hit, I run around 90HR+talents, its nice to have, but only if you dont sacrifice anything else to get it. You will almost ALWAYS see better returns when adding AP/Crit/Armor pen to your gear. From the melee group that my guild runs, we are ussually the top5 for damage and I fall in there under the rogues right with the furywar and retpally and I miss a good percent of the time. If the gear would allow me to get more +hit I have no doubt that enh shaman would own on damage. Another good baseline for DPS/Damage is if your guild is Morogrim if your guiild is still running SSC. While the water tombing can get annoying at times, it is a pretty static tank and spank type of fight that can allow for gear comparissons week-to-week if you are keeping logs of your damage done. | |||||||||||
| #5632 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Traker |
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Im at 55 hit right now and dont really plan to get it a lot higher, and according to all the simulations and theorycrafting thats a GOOD thing. I have 1700 AP and 31.8% crit currently. I do plan to pick up 2~ items with more hit on them but I dont anticipate going much higher than 90-100hit (till sunwell and then its all up in the air). | |||||||||||
| #5633 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
Without some WWS I'm skeptical to believe that composition is the same, dps time was the same, and that the fight length was the same(read: the longer a fight goes the less dps you do). You may not click on Mag but that doesn't alter the fact that banished time varies and quakes throwing you everywhere. With Gruul you deal with cave ins, slams, silences, and a much higher threat cap; I stand by my original statement that these are terrible fights for DPS samples.
The best thing I can suggest is to run combatlog and upload WWS to get a better idea or look at your DPS in relation to your raid if it is as consistent as you say. Until blizzard puts in a +3 fully debuffed unlimited hp dummy that doesn't move sims are the best because of their controlled environment. | |||||||||||
| #5634 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5635 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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Look, just know your stat weights. I can't stress this enough. Knowing how much each stat is worth compared to others allows you to quickly evaluate gear, find out which upgrades offer the biggest bang for the DKP and not waste your time grinding useless stuff. Being an Enhancer is easy. If a piece is an upgrade, it's an upgrade. There's no magic levels to maintain. No need to shift gems around. Just know your stat levels and you're good to go. | |||||||||||
| #5636 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Skwat |
chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta
Here you get 1900+ AP and 207HR, you may find better i think, but those are pretty awesome stats. PS : and yeah, that's a lot of leather stuff :| Last edited by Skwat : 12/14/07 at 6:41 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5637 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5638 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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I'm at (with kings) 1866 AP/34.18% crit/19.91% hit/301 AI, with procs active I'm riding 3k+ AP/40% crit in raids... at that point hitting becomes ALOT more valuable to me than an extra 20 or 30 AP that I could have had from other gear choices. Last edited by Mox : 12/15/07 at 12:57 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5639 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Skwat |
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And for the template, it was just a test. I read this topic and i know that enh/resto is still the best template, but again it was not what i wanted to talk about. Sorry for that poor reply, won't happen again. | |||||||||||
| #5640 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Myul |
Sorry Mox but you can get a lot of hit rating with the best gear avaible. Just check that profile.
1828 AP, 182 HR, 35 ExR, 32.6% CR, 252 ArP and 2.35% Haste Low Hit Assumption is true for starting karazhan up to ~ mid T6 content, until you can get your hands on the "rogue" gear. There's hit allmost everywhere. You could swap [Madness of the Betrayer] for [Berserker's Call], but i don't think there are more real upgrades avaible, crafted shoulders and bracer with haste can only be decent sidegrades. | |||||||||||
| #5641 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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@Skwat: Apologies, but to me it was someone I've never seen linking a ctprofile of a shaman with t6 equiv gear when the discussion was about dropping AP for Hit. I do realize that you had good intentions, however. | |||||||||||
| #5642 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Quigon |
![]() UR Uptime = [late] \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100[/late]
![]() UR Uptime = [late] \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit\%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100[/late]
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| #5643 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Traker |
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Most of TBC bosses in this game have major raid-wide damage, and with no CloS/Evasion/Sprint/exploits I am very wary of items with zero stamina on them. Thus I don't plan to pick up boneweave girdle/supremus neck until noone else in the raid needs it. I also don't see myself getting the S3 Arena Weapons for...well...lets just say a long time... From the simulations ive run at least right now, berserker's call is > madness of the betrayer (I particularly like it because it can be used simultaneously with Shamanistic Rage). You are right though, I hadn't really looked at the final hit rating of my optimal set but I was just surprised how low my hit had actually fallen (when I replaced my S2 arena weapons with Syphons, and a few other changes) and overlooked a few things ill be picking up even within the immediate future to pump my hit back up. | |||||||||||
| #5644 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan | ||||||||||||
| #5645 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Atren |
Problem actually is Malan instead showing formula atm it just shows notice Latex failed.
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| #5646 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
That's because I haven't fixed it yet.
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| #5647 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Quigon |
For all of my equations that was the only fix.
Here is your last change: \text{Windfury} = \left(\begin{array}{l l}\text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\\text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3\end{array}\right) I guess it parses out carriage returns as /br(reaks). Also your right parenthesis was off, just copy and paste that line. It gets hectic without white space now, some of my latex codes for the calculus section on armor returns are 3 solid lines of characters. Better here than a PM though - perhaps it'll help another person with latex in their posts. | |||||||||||
| #5648 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Courn |
To miss or not to miss
Hello @ all,
newly signed in, a few minutes ago. Thank you for the information in this thread. Nice work! Frees me from some misunderstandings. I have a question that bothered me for a while since my raidleader keeps critizing me for missing much too often against the bosses at Karazhan. In his opinion. Needless to say I see it otherwise. ;-) As far, as I can tell my Recount addon says my miss numbers are reading under 10 % against lvl 70-71 normal mobs when in melee. I'm partially PvP (Veteran-Non-Set-Epics), Arena and T4 equipped and do know, that a DWing Enhancer has a base chance of 24 % of missing. Further, I can provide some Webstats of our tries against the 'Leerhäscher' at The Eye. at url: Courn - WWS So my question in this matter is, does my leader read and interprete his numbers correct? Is there a magical miss-percentage for any Enhancer out there to keep his misses below? Some stats unbuffed: AP 1258, hit rating 86, Crit 27,21% If you need additional information, let me know. Thanks in advance for your advice! | |||||||||||
| #5649 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Tambard |
I have the Cataclysm Helm, and I recently picked up Coif of the Jungle Stalker, which all AEP weights say is about 8AEP better (assuming you're valuing hit at 1.4). But when I put it into simulators, no matter what buffs I add or remove, the Cataclysm Helm comes out ahead. Now, I noticed I don't have a set value for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, so my question is...
According to Rogues I've spoken to, their AEP for the Relentless Earthstorm is 42. And I know that it varies by crit rate, but with an approximation of 30% crit, what would the AEP from this metagem be? I was thinking of taking their AEP and subtracting the 12 AP they get out of the AGI on it and valuing it at 30, but I wasn't sure if anyone had posted a more accurate way to value it that I had missed. Thanks for reading and for the thread as a whole! | |||||||||||
| #5650 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Scan back a few pages and you'll see the discussion I had about this as well. You need almost a 60-80 EP upgrade before the meta gem can be phased out. Basically if you already have a meta gem helm, there's no way to replace it with a non meta gem helm.
Quigon, thanks mate! | |||||||||||
| #5676 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
That's a mistake, you don't need *any hit* at all for on-crit procs to work because crits are a separate entry in the attack table. If you had 0 hit and 0 hit talents but somehow still had a 30% crit rate, you'd have 100% unleashed rage uptime.
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| #5677 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Xhaos |
Quick question about Yo!'s simulator, do I have to add the +3% hit from Nature's Guidance into the hit textbox in addition to the hit I get from hit rating? Or is that 3% already calculated in my character sheet?
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| #5678 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
You mean 9% Hit (assuming you have 3/3 in NG which would be pretty silly if you didn't). And yes, you have to add it to the % from your gear, its not part of the character sheet.
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| #5679 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Xhaos |
My bad, I thought that the Dual Wielding talent listed in the Procs & Stuff tab referred to the Dual Wield specialization, no wonder I was getting absurdly high hit rating values. Thanks for that Malan.
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| #5680 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Whodi |
I'm kind of confused on what I'm doing wrong. From running the Simulators and gearing up the way the posts show, Im still sitting pretty low on the DPS scales. I've seen other parses where you guys are standing strong with the Rogues with 1200 - 1400 DPS, the Highest I've achieved is 1150 on a Tidewalker fight. I'm not using macros for the twist right now, but I am using Disquetes bar and generally have the totems on time about 95 percent of the time. (I will use the macros as it will make my life much easier)
On Kael I pulled 909 DPS where the Top 3 (2 Rogues and a Hunter) pulled around 1200 each. Does that sound right? here is the parse on the fight if your interested Whodi - WWS and here is my armory too The World of Warcraft Armory Thx for any help ![]() | |||||||||||
| #5681 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
You lack Sprint and Ranged attacks. The hunter is able to DPS a lot longer on multiple targets than you can. The rogues are able to reduce movement time between targets at various points of the fight. So yah perfectly reasonable.
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| #5682 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Unaz |
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I like the 2 points in concussion, as from a pure dps standpoint, after you put the minimum in resto to get 3% hit and totem range, you have two points left over. They can either go into imp lightning shield, anticipation, or slightly more shock damage. I figured shock damage would be the straight dps option, as you get more mileage out of it then LS, and anticipation shouldn't be something to rely on in pve anyway. Or you would be gemming for HP in that case. | |||||||||||
| #5683 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | evilution |
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| #5684 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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As for Kael It's not exactly a fight that you can compare damage on, theres so many random factors and different class roles combined with periods where you can't even dps, anywhere around 900-1000 dps would be easily acceptable. So I guess just keep up the good work! | |||||||||||
| #5685 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Unaz |
Your dps should jump up pretty rapidly once you get your t6 as well, as the itemization there is much better overall then the T5 selection. I started replacing SSC hunter gear with rogue gear almost immediately when we got to Hyjal/BT. Access to the epic gems helps a lot as well with how fast we scale with more STR.
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| #5686 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Rob |
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Edit: Well, nevermind, I just ran it through Yo's sim and apparently you have 99% UR uptime instead of 100%. Could just be a rounding difference. Still, crits from WF and SS do help Flurry uptime. (At 30% crit, Flurry uptime increases from 81% to 83% as you go from 0% to 9% hit.) Last edited by Rob : 12/17/07 at 2:08 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5687 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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Hitting drums of battle, chain chugging haste pots and totem twisting are good ways to maximize your personal DPS, as is timing your Brooch with haste procs. But none of these is getting you 300+ dps, only T6 can help with that. My only criticism from that WWS is that your damage % from shocks seems low, and it may be because you weren't using Flame Shock. FS is the BEST shock we have in just about every situation, and using it every other rotation will also open up 2 charges of Stormstrike debuff for your elemental, who will love you for it. | |||||||||||
| #5688 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ikuturso |
Theoretically 100% UR uptime is only possible if all of your hits always crit. With a less than 100% crit rate, there is always the minimal chance of not critting at all for 10 seconds.
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| #5689 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Xargoth |
First of all, hi all, im a long time lurker that decided to get out of the shadows .. thank god for this awesome post
![]() I was wondering what addons do you guys use to measure your dps ? atm i use Violation but i dont really like it, it doesn't lists your misses and the different attacks only, pure dps. | |||||||||||
| #5690 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bragor |
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Also "Search" function gave me a few links on this very same topic. | |||||||||||
| #5691 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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Quibbling inside that 1% isn't worth our time. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/17/07 at 5:34 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5692 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Courn |
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Thank you for backing up my position and arguments in my discussion with my raidleader. Perhaps I should seek another? :-( I have to thank for your given advice, too. At the moment I'm wearing Mail 1. out of RP-reasons and 2. at rare occasions I have to tank i.e.: 'Blindauge' (Maulgar). Seems to me you are right, Leather is a worthy consideration if it comes to optimizing dps. But I always have to share it with the Rogues. My fast OH axe ist the next item I hope to get rid of. I'm currently working on it. Pulling threat? Only over my dead body! ;-) Last edited by Courn : 12/18/07 at 5:39 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5693 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Wundorn |
Odd (?) formula
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(1-0.01*35) is obviously the non-crit percentage, but what's the ^4.4 from? Thanks. | |||||||||||
| #5694 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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Don't neglect badge rewards -- no need to compete with rogues for that, and it is killer stuff -- and there's good craftables as well. More than half of my current gear is rep rewards, badge rewards, craftables and PvP gear. ![]()
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| #5695 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
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Out of curiosity, does anyone know if SR reduces damage before or after armor mitigation? | |||||||||||
| #5696 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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| #5697 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
No, its wrong (as well as being implausible and not worth mentioning). He says that only a crit rate of 100% can produce 100% uptime on SR, which is incorrect. You don't need a crit on every swing to achieve that, you need 1 (or more) crits per 10 second period for 100%. You simply solved for the "close to 100%" solution which we all subscribe to - that a 30% crit rate achieves "good enough" results to call it 100%, but somewhere between 30% and 100% crit you would achieve a full 100% uptime before hitting 100% crit rate.
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| #5698 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Nacht |
It's not wrong. Without a 100% crit rate, you can enter combat and get a miss/dodge/parry/glancing blow on your first attack, meaning UR does not proc. It won't proc until that first crit. That means that technically you have not achieved 100% UR uptime. It's a moot point and purely academic. The discussion is pointless. In practice, 30% crit rate or more establishes a constant uptime. That's all that matters.
Can we please consider the case closed now a move on to more valuable discussions, like whether hit rating is better than crit rating? :P | |||||||||||
| #5699 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Nite_Moogle |
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| #5700 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | frozndevl |
This would explain my very high hit EP numbers using YO!'s simulator which went against everything else that has been discussed. Also, my trinkets are currently active use, so I have to manually add the prorated AP into my totals. Does this also need to be done for Blood Fury since I speak orcish?
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| #5701 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Yes, follow the same convention of figuring out the "average" value of the buff if you were to use it ever CD on the dot. The trinket section in the OP has numerous examples.
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| #5702 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ikuturso |
Sorry, I didn't mean to start discussion about 1% differences in UR uptime, but to point out that since we are concerned with various kinds of modelling, we want to be as accurate as possible. Some might feel it's unnecessary nit-picking, but when wording statements, it's better to say e.g. "nearly 100% UR uptime" than "100% UR uptime", as mathematically a pure 100% UR uptime is only possible with 100% crit rate.
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| #5703 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Rhagok |
I mean if you are constantly picking on that point I think I should have to add that you are still wrong, no matter what.
If you want it academically correct you definitely have to factor in the length of the Fight you are talking about. Once we have that we can calculate how likely it ist that during that time you will have a Streak of Dodge/Misses/Noncrits which must be longer then 10 seconds. This is simply done by multiplying the chance for a noncrit hit * the number of hits you do in 10 seconds. For sake of argument just take 0.7*0.7*0.7 ... If you have the length of the fight you can then calculate how improbable it is you get anything else then 100% UR uptime... | |||||||||||
| #5704 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Rob |
It wouldn't surprise me if WoW's PRNG is coded to eliminate really "unlucky" streaks and/or really "lucky" streaks, so I think all this discussion would be purely academic in nature.
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| #5705 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Darkmantle |
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Also to make such a system you would have to store all the previous values you got out of the random number generator and look for patterns in them and try to even those out. Which all would take far too much effort when you can just have your random number generator be normal and streaky. Last edited by Darkmantle : 12/19/07 at 1:22 AM. Reason: Awkward phrasing | |||||||||||
| #5706 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
+ Added Expertise support. It's weight is calclulated based on increasing expertise rating by 39 (= 10 Expertise = -2.5% dodge)
+ Changed export string to Enhancer addon as it now supports 3 digits and expertise rating + Added DPS value of 1 EP + Added Stonebraker's totem option. Proc modelled with 50% on each shock outside 10 sec hidden cooldown ![]()
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Last edited by Yo! : 12/19/07 at 2:13 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5707 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Sancho |
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Thanks for the update Yo! | |||||||||||
| #5708 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Rob |
Any computer generated series is only pseudo-random, this would certainly be a PRNG but just not one you'd want to use for cryptography.
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There is one very good reason I believe the PRNGs in WoW might not be 100% random. Undesirable quest drop streaks. If there are millions of WoW players and hundreds of quests you do from level 1-70 you are going to have a nontrivial number of people who are in that 0.01% of "super unlucky" on quest item drops. If you have a 20% drop rate for some [Bear Ass] then it will take 5 kills on average to get 1 [Bear Ass] but over 1% of the people are going to kill 20 bears before getting your first [Bear Ass]. (1-.2)^20 = .0115 This is not a desirable outcome for Blizzard, because people get confused and think they are in the wrong spot for the quest, or get frustrated and sick of the game. Given that Blizzard might be adjusting the drop rates on quest items to prevent "unlucky" streaks, it's not a far leap to wonder if they are adjusting the combat resolution mechanics similarly to prevent an "unlucky" run of misses (which would surely be equally frustrating and occur equally often. If you have a 24% chance to miss, then there's a 0.000000634*100% chance you'll miss 10 times in a row. If a level 20 rogue misses 10 times in a row, the mob he's fighting probably just killed him. How many mobs do you fight while leveling up? How many characters do you have? How many players are there? At some point, Blizzard may say there's only a certain level of unluckiness they are willing to tolerate and take the quest drop algorithm over to combat resolution as well. ![]()
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Last edited by Rob : 12/19/07 at 2:05 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5709 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | lorka |
Thank you Yo always a great job !
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| #5710 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Sancho |
Would it be completely unreasonable to assume that AP on yourself would yield similar DPS gains to that of AP on similarly geared melee DPS, and therefore equate it into EP?
I'm talking, of course, about the T4 2-set bonus. If that assumption is at least somewhat accurate, I can't see giving up my bonus anytime soon with my current EP values Typical group setup: myself - 26.4 EP warrior - 26.4 AP ret pally - 26.4 AP rogue - 13.2 AP rogue - 13.2 AP ---------------- total - 105.6 "EP" Even with the shoulderpads of the stranger (200ish EP) I already have, I can't see replacing my T4 head (225ish) and shoulders (150ish) with anything I have available. With the T5 head (280ish) it's about even. Did any of of you T6 players keep the bonus until MH/BT gear? I know this has been touched on before, but I'm honestly surprised there isn't more discussion on it. It's really an incredible set bonus. Last edited by Sancho : 12/19/07 at 2:39 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5711 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
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+ Fixed bug that prevented Unleashed Rage from being properly switched off when UR radio button was unchecked Last edited by Yo! : 12/19/07 at 3:07 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5712 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Rob |
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| #5713 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Sancho |
Even taking into account the expertise I still only get about 200 EP for the shoulderpads of the stranger with my EP values ( using only 8 exp rating since I don't have any other expertise rating), which puts those about even with T4 using my T4 2-set "EP value".
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| #5714 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Atren |
Problem for group wide buffs is that AP is not of same value to others as it is for us. In fact we have one of the lowest AP of melee classes imo. So actual value of T4 2-set is very hard to decide, and could use some input from those respective classes: rogues, warriors and retribution paladins.
The reason why other classes values applies to it is that because AP is the base of evaluation for other stats so if for example shamans have highest value for AP then will overvalue the bonus considerably probably. EDIT: If you get such buffs and individual boost setups equal then always go for individual boost. This is based on cold reality -- if someone in group dies then group buff value diminishes while individual will not. And well if you die yourself, it wont matter as group buff gone as well. Last edited by Atren : 12/19/07 at 4:44 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5715 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mano |
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Quest drops just aren't visible when you aren't on the quest (see examples of having completed a quest while your party member hasn't yet and him being able to loot your mob corpse). ![]()
Look how many write stuff like " I got the first 4 in the first 4 kills, but the fifth/last one took me another 25 kills". ![]()
Let's see: 0.000000634*100% * 9'000'000 players => 63.4% chance that this happened to someONE somewhere (although this math is probably wrong ...). And that someone could have died easily anyway, because he had two mobs on him or something. Or he might have been in a party, got some heals and survived. Another one killed the mob, and his unlucky streak might have been distributed over two mobs (e.g. 5misses on first mob, first mob gets killed by party member. 5 misses on next mob). Or he might have died after the first 5 misses, rezzed, and died again (another 5 misses) and just decided it wasn't his day? hrm, actually this is pretty much offtopic for this thread. | |||||||||||
| #5716 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Shalas |
They have concluded that it's impossible for us to know when loot is generated, and the old bug where thorns/etc. getting the tap on bosses with loot tables that were different for each faction resulting in no loot proves that at some point, some mobs didn't generate loot on spawn. Also, the Blasted Lands mobs are almost certainly just different mobs with the same name that share a spawn.
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| #5717 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Pitbuller |
1 - (1-0.000000634) ^ (9'000'000 * avarage number of player killed mob)
Chance that 10miss streak has happen least once. | |||||||||||
| #5718 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mano |
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And they also coded other mob spawns with hardcoded loot table of a grey dagger AND showing it in his hands? Maybe I'm just sarcastic but I don't think so. If we really want to go down this way, I'd suggest heading to the appropriate topic (either http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t16988-t...oot+generation or RNG Raiding System: Time for a change? or even another one, I'm not sure which is the better one). Anyway, until some kind of "proof"* is shown that Blizzard is doctoring with the RNG against extremely lucky/unlucky strings, I won't believe in it. * And as this is most likely on the order of "proving a negative", I don't think there will be any proof. ![]()
But assuming that a player has at least killed 1 mob, this is already above 99.99%. I.e. it's virtually certain it's happened to someone. Poor bastard ![]() | |||||||||||
| #5719 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
With this new feature I'd love for someone to modify Pawn so that it would show the DPS potential of items in the tooltips.
@the above discussion, there are plenty of threads in general that discuss the randomness of loot and they all end up closed by the mods. Lets not get into that here. | |||||||||||
| #5720 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Nemaa | ||||||||||||
| #5721 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
I severely doubt Blizz does any monkeying with the RNG -- too many variables to maintain in a system that has to at least have the appearance of being realtime. In fact, I'd guess that all their random numbers are either pre-generated to a list that's read in a loop or done on a separate chip -- true PRNGs are just too processor intensive for a system that must no doubt make millions of random determinations per second.
Of course, systems being what they are the most random thing about ANY MMO RNG will be the order in which the numbers are requested by clients, making the actual distribution of randoms or existence of patterns less meaningful. | |||||||||||
| #5722 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Guys, lets get off the RNG topic please, its been discussed to death.
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| #5723 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Aximous |
By the way Malan, what's about the wiki? You said it's going live on monday but there's no sign of it.
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| #5724 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Ryley |
Edit: Delete this, found the answer I was looking for. Apparently I fail at typing in a whole two words into a search box.
Last edited by Ryley : 12/19/07 at 1:09 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5725 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yichimet |
For those of you wanting to use Yo!'s sim with a Leopard Mac, Apple just put out a developer preview build of Java 6 for Leopard 10.5.1. If my memory serves me, no Java 6 was the problem with the sim and Macs before. I haven't tested it yet, though.
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| #5726 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Roomooster |
Hi guys,
I apologize if this is a bit off topic. However, I can't seem to throw up a new post on this topic since I seem to have restrictions. Just registered to this site so still a little noobish with how this forum operates =P I have browsed through the forums but more or less haven't found much information to what I have been looking for. I am a raid specced 2/45/14 Enhancement Shaman and fairly geared. Only reason some of my gear is arena gear is because I have not come across or has dropped anything better for me. My guild and I are currently in SSC for only bout 6 days or so in total and we are already 1 boss away from Vashj. Without downtime (due to fights which benefit more through ranged attacks and AOEs) I am usually in the Top 3-5 highest dps in our raids. Much of my itemization and gear/weapon choices are based on this threads theory craft on maximum dps in raids. As far as gear, itemization, weapon selection, etc. are concerned, I am very satisfied with how detailed this thread has come. Furthermore, it has helped me jump from a middle dps'er (in raids with damage meters) to a high dps'er competing with epiced out rogues for first place. My interest beyond this now is in terms of PVP as enhancement. I have looked in the PVP topic in the other section but it has not answered much of my questions since it pertains to arena team setup. I do have a good amount of PVP experience as I have dueled all classes numorous times. Therefore, I know my class; his strenghts; weaknesses as well as which class I do or do not have an advantage over. I have a fair amount of PVP (2 Vengeful and 2 Merciless pieces) gear with veteran writs, waists, & Vindicator boots. I also have Dory's Ebrace and more soon to come. My 2h weapon of choice is Stormherald and for DW'ing I use Dragonstrike & Fury. As far as weapon choice used in pvp, from my experience it all breaks down to what class I am fighting. For example, for dueling a arms warrior I would use Stormherald and dueling paladins/elem shams I would DW in increase hits and attempt to increase their cast times. Lets look from a fair dueling 1v1 rather than arenas (regardless of pvp or pve gear) Classes I am confident in taking down: 1. Mages 2. Other Shamans 3. Paladins 4. Priests 5. Arms / fury Warriors Classes I currently have problems with (regardless of pvp or pve gear) 1. Rogues (no dought singlely the most OP class against enhance shamans regardless of their gear. A good rogue in mixed blues and greens can still give me a hard time. Providing they keep me stunned) 2. Druids - whether they are feral or moonkin. Feral druids stun off first attack and once you get out he/she switches to bear form. Moonkin = root, kite, HOTs, star/moonfire and my frost shocks are easily removed with them switching in/out of forms. 3. Warlocks - aka. Fear ftw! lol All they need to do is fear, bolt grounding/tremor totems and continue fear and dots. Oh and mind you a felguard is slapping you silly at the same time. 4. Hunters - Frost trap, scatter shot, aimed shot oh and mind you their pet is also nibbling away at you. Not to say these classes can't be beaten by an enhance shaman; each of these classes have weaknesses as well. Locks/hunters I can take out providing I can get close. Rogues can't survive my burst dmg if they can't keep me stunned. Druids eat Windfury hard if you catch them in normal or cat form. Just majority of the time these classes give me much more difficulty. Now getting to the point (finally! =P) I am not questioning PVP gear as it is specifically designed by Blizzard for these kind of encounters. There is only so much you can do about stun, fear, etc. I do find however a heavy weakness and I beleive it's really got to do with the types of gems I have socketed. At the moment, all my gear is socketed with +8 strengh and or +4 crit & +4 strength. I realize these are the best gems to socket in PVE but how bout PVP? Past research has told me to stock heavily on resiliance. However, I've beaten a good number of epiced out gladiator/merciless gladiator enhancement shamans and warriors with 400+ resil. Meanwhile I myself only have about 225 resil due to a combination of pve/pvp gear. But I dueled a friend who is a feral druid with tier 4 dps gear in tank form seems to dodge 5 or 6 of 10 melee attacks including Stormstrike/WF. and what normally hits for 800 reg white dmg now hits for 300ish; as well as, dodged or small WF hits. In my PVP gear i currently have 81 hit rating. I swapped out with my PVE gear and upped it to 101 (2handed) to 122 (DW) hit rating and saw a large improvement in the amount of attacks landing. So does that mean I should be stacking on +8 hit rating and +4hit / +4agility gems? Mind you I have already capped the 9% hit rating for DW throught talents (3%) for 2 h. I have the same problem with rogues and hunters but i realize that is due to the high agility and rogue evasion. Furthermore, this brings me to the Mongoose vs. Executioner question as well. I have read on how it works for rogues and fury warriors but very vaguely on enhancement shamans. Should I be enchanting my offhand with executioner and keep mongoose on mainhand? With executioner procing and when i get my S3 leggings, it would total to 1204 ignore armor. I apologize if this topic has been covered before and I may have missed it. If it has, please direct me to the right place to find it. Your feedback would be greatly appreciated! =) I chose to post on this website because I feel this is the most informative. aka - elitistjerks lol. Please don't reply harshly if you may find these questions kinda noobish, we all go through a learning process sometime =) Thanks in advance! | |||||||||||
| #5727 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Kasi |
There is a thread on PVP enhancement over in the PVP forum on this very site. You might want to repost this over there. This forum here is meant for general PVE theorycrafting.
Edit: Here is the link to it: [Shaman] Enhancement - Partner-/Weapon-type choice, 2v2 | |||||||||||
| #5728 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan | ||||||||||||
| #5729 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Roomooster |
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| #5730 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Audrix |
I recently installed the addon and been playing with it a bit. Mostly becuase we are working on Kael atm so just wana make right choice on items I should pick before we leave SSC/TK. But my question is how do you export the data string from enhancer. thx
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| #5731 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Nemaa |
Yo!: Thanks for the update, I was waiting for the expertise support for a long time!
![]() However I found a bug in the enhancer string export: AP:100;CR:206;STR:200;AGI:182;HR:181;HsR:169;IA:031;ExP:335; Importing this string results in an AP=10, CritRating= 20.6 and so on... Might be a bug in enhancer though. [e] MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. Am I right? Last edited by Nemaa : 12/19/07 at 5:08 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5732 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bargle |
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| #5733 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
Well, it does matter because I'm pretty sure Enhancer hard-codes the values for certain procs as well as gem slots.
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| #5734 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bargle |
Duh...wasn't thinking about those. In any case, it's not hard to go into the Enhancer config and just move the decimals over.
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| #5735 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
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MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. You are right. EP value is for rating though. | |||||||||||
| #5736 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Stopokingme |
Yo, seems you forgot to set the Ashtongue trinket proc rate to 2.3 values, at least, the Forensic Report gives me a 90% uptime on it
Otherwise, great work on the sim, keep it up. | |||||||||||
| #5737 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Karok(EU) |
Confirmed, 88% uptime here, ran a 15k hour sim.
Thanks for the update Yo! Some really really minor things: Is 10 shocks/2 minutes realistic? Chain shocking on a static npc (max potential dps) we can asume a near-perfect rotation bearing in mind interference of SS cooldowns) would this number not be closer to ~15 (10 shocks/min as perfect rotation) Would it be possible to get a visual on the stonebreaker's totem proc rate as you did with the trinkets? Typos: Procs & stuff tab: "Average number of shocks... (E): Be gone quote! Last edited by Karok(EU) : 12/19/07 at 8:47 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5738 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Shokkina |
I have some problems with Yo's simulator
Fist of it all it shows a DPS that is far superior to what i am capable of at the moment. On anetheron(mostly tank and spank fight) i can reach 1500 dps at max(without flask) but the simulator says 1917 DPS. Also on my first run of the simulator i got negative EP values for both agility and crit. i runned the simulator another time(i forgot on the first run to put executioner instead of mongoos on offhan) and the problem disappeared. Maybe is something that should be looked into(negative values can only come from errors in program i think) anyway for the difference in expected dps this are the values i put in simulator: AP 1575 crit 31.38 hit 16.17 haste 4.63 boss armor 2990(6200 - 5xsunder - faerie fire feral. I thought that since you cannot check for armor debuffs you have to input the boss armor after these debuffs. It worked fine before the last update. My fault if this is the problem) armor pen 287 MH DPS 97.6 speed 2.6 OH DPS 100.2 speed 2.8 spell hit 4(talents + draenei aura) procs/stuff: dragonstrike, tsunami, relentless earthstorm diamond, stonebreaker totem, 16 shocks in 2 minutes enchants: Mongoose/Executioner for buffs: kings, might, shout, mark, leader of the pack, strength of earth, roasted clefthoof(no flask/potions/drums of battle). I ask this question cause it is getting really hard choosing the right gear at this level and i don't want to need items that i will find not that much useful. Thanks for any reply Edit: also AEP values give me some questions. In previous runs of the simulator hit rating was always at ~1.6 EP value. Now it says 2.62 a value greater than STR. This is quite strange because would mean that a hit rating gem would be more valuable than a STR gem. Last edited by Shokkina : 12/19/07 at 7:40 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5739 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5740 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Shokkina |
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Oh and i got agility(and crit rating) AP: 0 (yes ZERO). I think that means there is a problem here... Other strange things on this run: forensic report: normal strikes(for WF, ss, and white damage): 0 crit strikes for WF and SS: 0.944(that means 94% crit right?) I still think that is something wrong here... Anyway thanks for the fast reply Last edited by Shokkina : 12/19/07 at 8:04 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5741 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Shokkina |
Nevermind i realized now that befor my 31.38 crit % where other numbers so i did input something like 2531% crit O_o
What a noob mistake, but in the crit field(since it is short) i did not manage to see thos numbers :| Sorry for such a noob question then :| | |||||||||||
| #5742 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Yah I was gonna say that it sounded like you put some insanely high values in there someplace.
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| #5743 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Paradox |
I was hoping someone could explain to me why upgrading my weapons would be a DPS downgrade, according to Yo!'s sim.
Currently weilding Dragonstrike+Merc Pummeler According to the sim if I upgraded to 2x Syphon of the Nathrezim, it would be a 14 DPS nerf. Rising Tide + Syphon is not looking too good either, as a 15 DPS downgrade. (Yes, I changed the stats gained according for each weapon changed and the Dragonstrike selection on the "Procs & stuff" page.) I was really looking forward to upgrading my weapons to these, and thought they would really increase my damage "cap" since the rest of my gear isn't too shabby, I thought my weapons were holding me back, but I just don't know why it's a downgrade and not a huge upgrade, does the sim value the dragonstrike proc extremely high or something? | |||||||||||
| #5744 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Karok(EU) |
Due to the large amount of variables there will allways be a small percentage of difference between similar setups and a couple of sim runs (I think)
Have you tried running the same setup with 10.000 hours simulated? And if you have, try do it a couple of times you will probably find there is a small difference each time even tho the hours ran on the exact same gear each time. (E): Unneeded Quote gone. | |||||||||||
| #5745 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Rob | ||||||||||||
| #5746 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Paradox |
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I guess what the poster above me said could be the culprit, is there any modelling on the Dragonstrike proc that Yo! can update the sim to correct it, so it's not valued so (incorrectly?) high? | |||||||||||
| #5747 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Karok(EU) |
Well, 10k+ is advised for a reason, the longer it runs the bigger the data pool to get the stats from. I would really suggest just running it at 10k or more a couple of times and compare the results. Grab a book/movie or smash some pvp face while waiting for the sim to complete.
Edit: Malan how are the T6 item values comming along? Still missing on the First post ;-) Last edited by Karok(EU) : 12/19/07 at 11:15 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5748 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
When I do my personal EP values after getting new gear I run 10x 10,000 hours and then average them. Yah it takes awhile but you get some crazy outliers sometimes if you don't do that. I just run it at work while I'm doing other stuff.
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| #5749 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Joy |
For Yo's! simulator is it recommended to just add Judgement of the XXX (3%crit), Imp hunters Mark, Expose weakness improved + trinketed battleshout to your base character stats?
Then for bloodfrenzy / Imp Sanct aura / ferocious insp just multiply the final dps by 1.03 or 1.035ish(blood frenzy)? Also is there any suggested way to model bloodlust? 33% haste x 45s/fight duration? | |||||||||||
| #5750 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Paradox |
I see, where is 10k advised by the way? I always just did 1k or 2k hours like it says for working out aep values on the sim itself.
Something about the stonebreakers totem too.. you say it is modeled on shocking out of the cooldown (every 10 seconds), but this conflicts with "shocks per 2 minutes", and well, personally I shock everytime it's up, perhaps 2 versions of it would be nice, one for shocking everytime the shock CD is up, the other for every 10 seconds when the stonebreaker is up? Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim? | |||||||||||
| #5751 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
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For the others you can indeed multiply at the end, but that's only necessary if you want an exact DPS number. (If you do, make sure you get the mob's armor after Sunder/FF/CoR correct.) There is no good way to model Bloodlust. I would not do what you describe -- you might devalue haste rating. ![]()
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| #5752 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | alexandertheti |
Ok, say i have 3 weapons.
60 dps, 2.5 spd (A) 62 dps, 2.3 spd (B) 85 dps, 1.8 spd (C) Initially i had been using B/A WF/WF, but when i got C i wasnt quite sure what to do with it. For now its C/A WF/WF, but it seems to do almost identical damage as A/C WF/FT and A/B WF/WF. I've spent a few hours in BG's, dueling, and even grinding on mobs trying to determine which is the better combination. The actual stats on the weapons are moot, as they are almost identical (I would link to what they are, but i'm not at home right now.) I know WF is supposed to out DPS FT in almost all situations, but even when the weapon is that fast? I had hoped that the large increase in the actual weapon DPS would make up for it, but that doesnt seem to be the case. | |||||||||||
| #5753 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Raut |
WF scales a lot better. All tests done by people who knows their shit in this thread points to WF being the only buff to use on two slow weapons. Epic daggers with FT cannot compete. You can always browse the odd 1-200 pages on this topic or run the tests in Yo!'s sim linked in the OP.
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| #5754 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Simian LeSinge |
ok, I have a lame dull flameworthy question that I'd love a quick and dirty guesstimate answer for:
swords rogue daggers rogue mm hunter bm hunter Grace of Air or Windfury? (assuming all else is equal) a) GoA b) WF c) who cares? In TK the other night we discussed this in /party for ages until the MM hunter stated that if I didn't stfu about totems he'd ask to be moved to another party ![]() | |||||||||||
| #5755 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Jerem |
If you want to please everyone and be the most efficient, twist both GoA and WF.
If you don't want to twist, just pick one totem and stick to it. The effect of GoA on your hunters depends a lot on the fight, their playstyle, and so on. You are the only one that has possibly access to the numbers that will help you to determine whether GoA for your entire party will be more DPS than WF for your rogues. I play a lot (outside of raids) with my guild's hunters and rogues, and I know that, if I took my shaman for a raid, and had a group like the one you listed, I'd use GoA if, for some reason, I didn't feel like twisting. | |||||||||||
| #5756 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Sebudai |
So wait it's you and those four classes in the group? Definitely GoA. Even if one of the rogues was a warrior, I'd probably still drop GoA(assuming I'm not twisting for some reason).
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| #5757 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
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I know it says this in the first post you ignored, but weapon speed matters far more than any other factor on a weapon -- a 2.6s weapon in the 60s can, as you've seen, outperform an 80 dps dagger. Don't pick up the dagger and think you can make it work -- let it get sharded. Weapon choice is one of the most important factors of shaman gearing. You NEED 2.6s or slower weapons, even a 2.4 is gimpy and not worth your time. At your gear level, you want to aim for easy upgrades like Drakefist Hammer, Harvester of Souls, Demonblood Eviscerator, Reflex Blades or the easiest upgrade of all, the S1 one-handers. For ~36 hours of PvP (easily doable by the end of the year) you can have a pair of 91.2 dps 2.6s axes or hammers. Why waste your time testing daggers from Karazhan? Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/20/07 at 10:16 AM. Reason: The Guile of Khoraazi still sucks. | |||||||||||
| #5758 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | alexandertheti |
@Toots
I've read the OP many times through, i just wasnt sure if it still applied when there was that much of a difference in DPS. As for taking the dagger, guild bank has more shards than it can handle, and the only reason i took it is because everyone else in the raid already had one. No really, even the mage =\ (Same thing with the druid staff from illhoof.) I was just hoping for a really easy upgrade as i took the third healers spot while my already-geared guildmates destroyed karazhan for badges. Either way, ty. =) I'll still be coming back to these forums, but i'll read a little more before i post something next time. | |||||||||||
| #5759 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
No that's exactly what the OP says - that FT on a much higher DPS weapon will now outperform WF on a slow weapon with inferior DPS. A 20 DPS upgrade on that dagger with FT will do pretty good. However, a 100 DPS 2.6 and 100 DPS 1.8 will perform best with WF on the 2.6 over FT on the 1.8. If you have lower end wpns an epic dagger upgrade with FT can be a good upgrade, you just have to recognize when to replace it again.
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| #5760 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Draegan |
Armory Links and/or WWS Links
I'm looking for Armory and WWS links for Heroic/T4 Geared enhancement Shamans and T5 Geared enhancement Shamans for comparison.
If anyone could take the time to PM your own links, I'd appreciate it. Thank you in advance. | |||||||||||
| #5761 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Nite_Moogle |
Any Boss NPC is going to have a 10% higher resist (or more) rate than anything you just listed here, which makes any "sort of close" comparison go to "Windfury is better".
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| #5762 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Joy |
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Yeah I was just wanting to get a bit more accuracy because our last Teron I was over 1700dps while Yo's! sim put me around 1500. | |||||||||||
| #5763 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Wundorn |
Int deserves a small EP value
I think that Int deserves a minimum EP value.
I have been treating Int and Stam as secondary stats for the last month, with the result that I'm picking up more ZA and badge leather gear to replace my mail. (I'm keeping the mail in case Bliz fixes itemization later in some way.) But I've realized that Int does have a quantifiable impact on DPS: It increases spell crit %age. Therefore, it's easy to see what Int EP should be... But since I don't have the Int-> crit or crit multiplier numbers handy I'll leave it to someone who does. I'm not sure this will change anything significantly since IIRC shock dps is around 10% of your overall dps in most fights, give or take, but it might make it clearer that a certain mail item was actually not worth "upgrading" to a comparable leather item, for example. | |||||||||||
| #5764 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Inamorata |
A little fast math, probably off by a little but will give you a picture. 80 int = 1% spell crit.
1% spellcrit ~0.5% more shockdamage.(probably less due to flame shock gaining so little) 0.5% more damage from shocks is roughly 0.05% more overall damage. So you need 20% spellcrit to gain 1% damage. 20% spellcrit = 80*20 = 1600 intellect. 20 melee crit rating will also roughly increase damage by 1%. If we have 1 Crit rating at 2 aep 1 intellect would be 0.025 (2/80) aep. Even if my numbers probably is off you can see that intellects value is extremely low and you need 40 intellect to get the same increase in damage as 1 ap. | |||||||||||
| #5765 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
We get 0.0125% spell crit/1 intellect. (I derived this by comparing the difference in spell crit and intellect between my PvP and PvE sets.) Our spells crit for 150% and not 200%, and the DoT portion of Flame Shock does not crit. With self buffs you've got about 500 +damage/heal, and a base value of 661-696 for Earth Shock which has a 43% coefficient and 377 for the direct damage of Flame Shock with a 15% coefficient for the direct damage. Let's suppose raid buffs take you up to 650 damage/heal. I am too lazy to consider Misery and Scorch so somebody else can do that if they want. If they do, they had better also factor in resists (spells should be two-roll, so a crit spell can be resisted. At least shocks are binary resist so you don't have to worry about partials...)
1% crit would give you an extra 0.01*0.5*((661+696)/2+650*0.43)/12 seconds = 0.005*(678.5+279.5)/12 = 0.399 DPS on Earth Shock and 0.01*0.5*(377+650*.15)/12 seconds = 0.005*(377+97.5)/12 = 0.198 DPS on Flame Shock. Let's call that 0.6 DPS in all for 1% crit. 0.0125% crit/Int*0.6 DPS/1% crit = 0.0075 DPS/Int. If we say 4 AP = 1 DPS then Int gets an EP of 0.03. An item with 40 int gets an extra 1.2 EP. In other words, we don't really need to take Int into consideration. (It's nice to see that the previous poster, using a different methodology, comes up with a similar solution.) Last edited by Rob : 12/20/07 at 8:11 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5766 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Rhagok |
that someone came up with the same solution is simply due to the fact that the value is so small ist does not make any difference. 0.025 / 0.030 is a 20% diversion. ^^ I mean a 20% difference in anything like maybe crit or so would result in anything between 1.6 and 2.4 for crit rating. Thats the sole reason 8)
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| #5767 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Tristan |
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Yo! has kindly made the values in the import string un-BoKed again for me to use in Enhancer so I can display both with and without BoK. | |||||||||||
| #5768 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ardonomus |
Don't know if you still want WWS parses, regardless, here's two!
Kael + first three in Hyjal Wow Web Stats First four in BT Wow Web Stats I don't think they'll be up for long though, since we're doing it the easy way with WWS 2. | |||||||||||
| #5769 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Gnus |
Do we have a crit cap?
Crit value, when AP became more useful over crit. Right now i'm thinking what to do - keep +10 CR gems or replace them with 5St+5CR gems. My unbuffed stats are: 1664 ap, 31.69% crit unbuffed, 116 hit rating. | |||||||||||
| #5770 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Stopokingme |
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Anyway, if you have no access to 10 str gems, you should be gemming your gear with 5str and 5 crit no matter what. You should be getting superior EP from strength. Last edited by Stopokingme : 12/21/07 at 7:41 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5771 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Gnus |
Crit cap for me - when 100% attacks are flurried. Maybe i'm wrong.
Question is about yellow sockets, for example my new T6 shoulders have only yellow sockets, so 10str gems are not good due to socket bonus. | |||||||||||
| #5772 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Jerem |
You don't have to go after the socketting bonus if you don't want to.
For T6 shoulders, it boils down to knowing whether 20 STR is better than 13 STR & 10 CR. I guess it's another way of saying "convert both stats into EP, using the coefficients Yo!'s simulator gave you, and go with the highest EP benefit" ? The only reason I could see that "forces" you to socket a gem-color that gives you lower EP values would be metagems activation. | |||||||||||
| #5773 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Stopokingme |
You can forget about getting 100% of your attacks flurried, the only real way of that happening is having a 100% crit rate. And yes, replace those 10 crit with 5 str and 5 crit, they're superior. Your gem choices for sockets should always be (if you want socket bonuses that is) Red: 10 str, Yellow: 5 str 5crit, Blue: 5 str 7 sta. The only exception to my knowledge being the jewelcrafting only 12 crit gem, which comes out superior to 10 strength.
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| #5774 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Razzan |
What do you guys think about talon of the phoenix?its a nice weapon and i thought about ''breaking the rules'',so i use it with rising tide for OH.I am satisfied by my DPS its over 1k in most of the boss fights.i use exe/mongoose for that combo,and i would like to know if mongoose x2 is a better enchant for this weapon combo.Thanks in advance.
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| #5775 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Press009 |
I have been searching through this thread for a while and I still haven't really seen it mentioned yet. Is there a difference when starting out in a entry lvl raid enviroment, when selecting between the gladiator's axe/mace for MH compared to the glad's MH first wep? Since the stats (EP) are the same, and the only true difference is dmg output/gap on the high and low ends of the wep. Is it just a personal choice of choosing which one I like better or does it make a huge difference in the long run?
Last edited by Press009 : 12/21/07 at 12:21 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5776 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | jlavarj |
My one hang up about buying fist weapons is that they are MH or OH specific. A shaman in my guild had gotten the Merc Glad MH fist weapon, and then was power leveling blacksmithing for the drakefist/dragonmaw hammer when I pointed out that both of those were main hand specific weapons. It broke his heart. Taking the rippers leaves you without options should a better main hand come along, whereas with the axe and mace, you can just transfer the gladiator weapon into your offhand and not have to grind honor for another offhand.
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| #5777 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Audrix |
The only difference that would influence your picking of an axe or mace would be a racial. I believe orcs benefits from axes from what I have read. Other than that all 1h arena weapons are the same. The fist weapons as mention above would just lock it for MH use only.
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| #5778 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Aspartem |
Ive a question to the Addon "Enhancer". I dont know why, but i cant see the Enhancer-Points like, i think, Malan posted around Page 100.
Everytime i try to add the String from CrazyShaman, Enhancer says its an incorrect String. I'm lookin trhough this Thread and other Forums since 5-6 Hours - now i just ask for help^^ Could someone explain me, how this Addon works correctly? Could i possibly be, that "Enhancer" dont work well with the German Version of WoW? Greetz Aspa | |||||||||||
| #5779 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Patterns... |
Getting Yo!'s sim to run
So I've searched the thread for some troubleshooting ideas for Yo!'s sim but couldn't find much. I've only been able to get it to run a sim once (out of *many* times messing with it). I read one post where someone said he clicked the "Theorycraft!" button 5 or 6 times until his CPU usage on task manager spiked to near 100%. This is exactly what happened the one time the sim ran for me -- since then though I haven't been able to get the CPU usage spike that would signify the sim was active. Which is to say, I don't believe it's a matter of the sim running and I just don't realize it; I think I can't get it to begin.
Anyone have any tips for working with the applet? Last edited by Patterns... : 12/21/07 at 11:04 PM. Reason: clarity | |||||||||||
| #5780 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
If you have a Pentium 4 CPU with Hyperthreading, a Core Duo, or a Athlon 64 X2 your CPU usage will appear to spike only to 50%. Close WoW and any other applications that might use a lot of memory, even other Firefox windows -- I've noticed that the java applet is really unresponsive if you don't get it enough memory. Try using a low number of hours (100) and clicking the "Theorycraft!" button "firmly" until you see it locked in. It should come back relatively quickly. Then you can try using a higher number of hours for more reliable results.
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| #5781 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Patterns... |
Thanks Rob. So after another solid half-hour troubleshooting I discovered my silly mistake: gotta have values in all of the inputs below "Stats" on the Tracking Headquarters page. Evidently I'd been replacing the default 5 in the Haste% space with a null blank rather than a 0. Thought I'd share just in case anyone else has made/is making/will make the same error.
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| #5782 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | smokey |
Do we have final EP values for T6 geared ?
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| #5783 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
I don't see what purpose that serves. EP values are based on your stats and are used to determine if a piece of gear is an upgrade or not, yet you want the EP values of a shaman with no upgrades left. If I'm remembering right even with the values listed on the front page for entry level shaman the best items remain the best even with inflated/shifted EP values.
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| #5784 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Lujaar |
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So white crit cap is: 100% - 24% (glancing blows) - 28% (DW miss rate) - 5% (dodge) = 43%. I can hit that twisting GoA with Kings and a feral druid. Even with no crit buffs whatsoever, double mongoose procs put me at just under 43%. Ugh, guess I should look into getting an executioner enchant after all. Edit: As Morelis and Yo pointed out, WoWWiki says I'm wrong about this. Crit cap is 43% + your hit. Last edited by Lujaar : 12/23/07 at 2:16 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5785 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Morelis |
Really? If true that would be big news, but this is the first I've heard of it.
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| #5786 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
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| #5787 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Morelis |
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edit: Just tried this with Yo's sim and using high crit rates shows that he is following the reasoning that hit does increase the crit cap for white attacks, if incorrect he should fix that. Last edited by Morelis : 12/22/07 at 4:17 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5788 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Scheme |
No, what he's saying is that it wouldn't be big news, because it's a pretty integral part of melee-class theorycrafting.
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| #5789 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
This link Weapon skill directly states
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Here is dual-wielding example that shows that ![]()
Following this logic our crit cap is 55%-60% for most players.. Last edited by Yo! : 12/22/07 at 5:36 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5790 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
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This will only be false if you are crit capped. According to the article linked by Yo, the crit cap is 50.2%, before adding any hit rating. (Recall that glancing blows were dropped from occurring 40% of the time to ~20%.) If you're properly specced you'll have at least 6% hit and probably 9% hit before any gear. So you're looking at 56%-59% crit cap before any gear. With Kings, LoTP, GoA, and double Mongoose rolling I'm just barely breaking 50% crit. Thus, "white attacks converted from misses to hit by hit rating can't crit". I would expect this to hold true, at least at the margin, for any shaman whose Armory profile you link me. Edit: Apparently, Lujaar was trying to argue that hit rating cannot increase the crit cap. The evidence I have seen suggests that this is incorrect (and the rest of this post makes the opposite assumption in calculating the crit cap). Morelis was right in correcting him. I misunderstood what was being debated, and I took this to be another instance of "you need to hit to crit," which is a commonly held misconception we are confronted with weekly in this thread. Since the 2.1 glancing blows reduction, the crit cap has been a complete non-issue for enhancement shamans, and I haven't seen a post on it in months. I will leave both of my posts as-is in the hopes that we'll get one less "hit to crit" post. To conclude: * White melee attacks are resolved by a one-roll system in which your "paperdoll" critical strike percentage will occur as a percent of all swings, not of all hits. * A theoretical "crit cap" does exist, but it is very high (52% using the numbers Lujaar gives for glancing blows, DW miss chance, dodge, and assuming 9% from talents). * This crit cap increases as hit rating and expertise rating are obtained on gear. In practice, enhancement shamans will never reach this crit cap. Last edited by Rob : 12/22/07 at 7:26 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5791 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
+ Added Hand of Justice trinket as 1.33% on any attack for extra attack with same hand. Uses yellow attack hit chance. Adds as WF damage in report. Remember to add passive 20 ap directly
+ Added Elixir of Demonslaying + Changed Ashtongue Talisman proc rate to 50% + Changed Madness of Betrayer "real" (auto-attacks only) ppm to 1 to reflect upkeep of 40% as in game. 2.4 ppm that is used often for this trinket is total observed in game with yellow attacks, flurried white attacks, etc. and was incorreclty used by me + Changed DST "real" (auto-attacks only) ppm to 1 to reflect upkeep of 25% as in game (20 saec hidden cooldown) The one proc that remains modelled not correctly is Dragonstrike. Please post or direct me to the following data: 1) uptime that you observe in raids 2) uptime with auto-attacksonly 3) # of procs over 1 minute in raid 4) # of procs over 1 minute with auto-attacks only 5) any other info? (hidden cooldown, patch notes, etc.) Though EP values of Elixir of Demonslaying and Mark of the Champion are trivial, I guess they are worth to be added to OP as they remain best options for specific fights. | |||||||||||
| #5792 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Skeptikk |
Thankyou for the updates Yo!
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| #5793 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Hmm all the bosses in Hyjal count as demons right? Which ones in BT?
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| #5794 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Illundai |
Mother Shahraz and Illidan, I'm guessing? I'm pretty sure Reliquary isn't a demon.
Btw, Rage Winterchill isn't a demon =P. All the rest is though. | |||||||||||
| #5795 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Well I suppose at least 2 of the sunwell bosses are going to be demons too from what we know.
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| #5796 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Anarkii |
Supremus is a demon as well.
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| #5797 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Lujaar |
I was under the impression that converted hits had higher priority than crits, but I'm not going to argue with WoWWiki. Morelis and Yo, thanks for the information.
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| #5798 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Visionnaire |
Is there any reason to believe that the "offhand" Vengeful Gladiator weapon is any worse than the "one-hand" Vengeful Gladiator weapon for using in one's offhand?
(Considering they both have the EXACT same stats except for that label mentioned above) | |||||||||||
| #5799 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | spanko |
Only the fact that its an offhand and you won't ever be able to use it your main hand.
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| #5800 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Chopps |
Thank you for all the wonderful information in this thread. I have questions regarding Yo! 's fantastic AEP Calculator I haven't been able to find here.
Am I correct in assuming the more "Hours of hack and slash" the more accurate my results will be? I know it sounds silly, but I'm getting drastically different values from running 20,000 hours from 100,000 hours. It would seem to make sense the more hours the better, but I wasn't sure if at some point too long of a test will mess something up. Throughout the thread, I've always seen people use 10-20K hours. I've followed the listed values on the first page for awhile, but I'd like to use my own values for evaluating upgrades. | |||||||||||
| #5801 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
Most incorrect results were due to incorrect input.
Post sreenshots of first pages after running. | |||||||||||
| #5802 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Chopps |
I'm not saying any of the results are wrong, just that with the exact same settings, I get very different values with 20K hours vs. 100K hours. I ran them back to back. I can still post screenshots if you'd like though.
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| #5803 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Zhebrica |
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| #5804 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Scheme |
"More viable than it is now."
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| #5805 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Galeyra |
Same Problem here. With the exact same input, i got results for AEP values not even close together. Thats with 20k+ hours used.
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| #5806 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
Well, if program is unstable to the point where it produces very different results with same settings running for 1 hour of real CPU time - it is definitely wrong as it simulates 10 years of non-stop gaming and averaged over such long time results are expected to be constant. Yes, please, post or pm screens, otherwise I do not know how to help you as what you observe should not happen. 10,000 should be enough for EP calculation and 100-1000 for dps calculation. Please remember that you do not need to find EP values if directly comparing 2 pieces/sets of armor in the sim - simply compare dps. I am satisfied with sims stability after some EP calculation improvements few changes back.
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| #5807 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Freyalis |
Hey Yo, i noticed on the buffs & debuffs section that you have Grace of Air adding +97 AGI, at least on the tooltip.
As far as i'm aware the last rank of GoA (the old AQ version) is +77 AGI which makes +88 talented. We did get a new rank of SoE though which is +97 STR talented. Not sure if its just a tooltip problem or its coded that way aswell. | |||||||||||
| #5808 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
I typically will see some variance between 10k hour runs (e.g.: hit changes from 1.65 to 1.72, haste changes from 1.89 to 1.75, whatever) and do what Malan does, which is to run a few different 10k sims, throw out any huge outliers, and take the average of the remainder.
I have noticed that armor penetration is very consistent between runs (always 0.29 with my stats), as is expertise (3.08-3.09). | |||||||||||
| #5809 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ston |
Armor penetration isn't changing because it will affect all your melee damage exactly the same, whether they be crits, hits, or glances. expertise will change a little because it's changing some of those dodge/parrys to hits, albeit not that many, so a smaller change.
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| #5810 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | drats |
A few pages back there was a discussion about helms with/without metagems past t5 content. While I saw an increase from my T4 helm to the Zul'jin helm, the S3 helm with the RED is considerably more dps. I have started stacking armor penetration since then, so that could be part of the difference (I'm at about 500 with the helm.) Anyways, if you have the arena points for it and can't find anything else with a meta, I'd highly recommend the S3 helm.
edit: Once raids start up again I'll post some numbers. | |||||||||||
| #5811 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Hotiedraenei |
I am debating if I should change out my Legs for either the Season 3 Vengful Legs or the Badge Reward Legs of the Shifting Camouflage Pants. I currently have the Forest Walker Kilt Forestwalker Kilt - Items - World of Warcraft with +8 Bold Living Ruby, 2 Sovereign Nightseye's and the +40 atk +10 Crit LW Kit on them. Any ideas would be great.
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| #5812 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Horus |
i dont want that malan has to say it again, so i do:
all you need is an calculator and the first page of this thread. | |||||||||||
| #5813 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Hotiedraenei |
Sorry I should of been more clear I do realize that all 3 pieces of gear are pretty near each other. I guess what I am looking to know is with more armor penetration of 175 on the Shifting Camouflage Pants, or the 84 on the Vengeful Gladiator Leggings be more useful when I get to bigger raids once my guild pasts Karazhan and starts the 25 mans? I will go ahead and try Yo's Simulator to see some of the different results, I would appreciate if anyone else has any first hand knowledge how it was impacted DPS wise when they droped some of their Attack Power or Strength for the items with the Armor Penetration or Expertise.
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| #5814 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yuma |
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| #5815 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Sebudai |
I noticed there weren't any EP values listed for T6 quality gear in the first post. I ran seven 10,000 hour simulations recently, so if we would like to use my values in any way, here they are:
![]() Crit Rating 1.74 1.75 1.72 1.76 1.77 1.74 1.72 Agility 1.7 1.7 1.67 1.71 1.72 1.69 1.67 Hit Rating 1.68 1.8 1.75 1.7 1.74 1.73 1.7 Haste Rating 1.81 1.8 1.84 1.84 1.83 1.89 1.78 Armor Penetration 0.35 0.35 0.35 0.35 0.35 0.35 0.35 Expertise 3.19 3.17 3.17 3.2 3.17 3.22 3.19 Attack Power - 1782 Crit % - 36.5 Hit % - 17.5 Haste % - 4.63 Boss Armor Value - 2930 Armor Penetration - 336 Anyway, dunno if they're useful to anyone but myself, but there they are. | |||||||||||
| #5816 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Smokestomp |
Hey, I can't decide for an enchanter, which is more valuable for PVE, +2 weapon damage or +4 stats for ring enchants.
2.6 speed weapons hasted to 2.0 mean each +2 enchant is worth 2 dps. It would be nice if WWS would have like some option to show weapon speed over time, because DST/heroism/mongoose/LW drums increase the value of this +2 weapon damage in a raid setting. Obviously +4 stat is superior for PVP, but in PVE, roughly +1 dps and some minor crit. | |||||||||||
| #5817 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Scheme |
16 AP and .32% crit is worth about 8 DPS or so. Don't use the paper doll to determine how much DPS a stat gain gives you; all it tells you is how much base non-crit auto-attack DPS you gain.
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| #5818 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Brum |
Here's some info I gathered on the percentage of windfuries eaten by the main hand when wielding Syphon and Tide. For those of you with dual season three weapons it's kind of a moot point but some of us just can't get the crayon out
Weapon speed and Windfury Theory states that, given the choice between two comparable weapons, putting the faster weapon in your main hand will result in higher damage than putting it in your off hand because (allegedly) fewer WFs will be used by the OH, which is subject to the 50% OH dmg penalty. This is because the faster weapon is more likely to attack first once the 3 sec WF cooldown is over, and will attack more often while outside the WF CD, giving it more chances to proc WF Below is data from Servant logs recorded while using Rising Tide MH (2.6) and Syphon OH (2.8). Both weaps had mongoose, I had 5/5 flurry and also parry flurried a number of times during combat. Both weaps were passively hasted to 2.32 (Tide) and 2.5 (Syphon) from gear. With 90% flurry uptime the avg speeds became (2.32/1.3)/.9 = 1.98 for Tide, and (2.5/1.3)/.9 = 2.14 for Syphon Here's what you'd expect for the % of WFs eaten by the MH when both weapons spend an equal amount of time hasted: # MH swings over 10 sec/# total swings over 10 sec = (10/1.98) / [(10/2.14) + (10/1.98)] [top] 2.14/(2.14+1.98)51.87% This is what occurred in testing: MH WFs = 367/678 = 54.13% Switching hands to put Syphon in MH and Tide in OH you'd expect the % of WFs that are MH to be: 1.98/(2.14+1.98) = 48.13% The results were: 333/649 = 51.31% I'm not gonna try to factor in the expected values accounting for parry flurries and mongoose procs. Theoretically, if the haste effects are distributed evenly, the faster your weapons are the higher the % of WFs eaten by the MH will be. This explains a bit of the discrepancy between theory and test, but not 2-3% worth. 2-3% isn't a big deal though. What's most remarkable is that when the Syphon was MHed, the percent of WFs eaten by the MH was still over 50. So either there's a mechanic I don't know about, the tests were flawed (not enough data points perhaps), or the theory's bunk. If I had to guess I'd say they coded in some mechanic to queue WF procs during the cooldown and give precedent to MH WFs within that queue, so that when you come out of CD there's a higher chance a MH proc hits. That's probably just wishful thinking though. Whatever the case, OHing the slower weapon came out with the higher % of WFs eaten by the MH, which supports the theory Data: ![]() | |||||||||||
| #5819 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Yo! |
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| #5820 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Yah I lost the link to the original post that discussed that stuff, the guy who did it ran some pretty extensive tests on the simulator and in the game to verify, but in the end the result was 2.x/2.y = 2.y/2.x.
Updated the T6 content EP weights with the averages of Sebudai's values. [e] Good news for Pawn users, the latest version now has a GUI configuration so you don't need the strings anymore. Simply type /pawn and then input your EP values directly. Last edited by Malan : 12/26/07 at 11:08 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5821 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
Considering how important they are to stat weights, I'd like to know which buffs Seb receives. I assume BoK / BoM / MotW / Relentless / Haste Pots / SoE / Battle Shout , but is he twisting (and thus including GoA)? Getting LotP?
Buff configuration the best part about EP weights from Yo's sim -- my guild typically runs with only two paladins and I'm often grouped with a feral, which decreases the relative weight of strength and agi/crit by a worthwhile amount. | |||||||||||
| #5822 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
In case anyone missed this, the former feral weapon skill ring from Lower City, [Shapeshifter's Signet] is now ranked (according to my personal EP values) as a Top 10 ring, better than almost every ring available in T5 content.
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| #5823 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Toots Hepcat |
It's on the top twenty list for me, Malan. My EP values, due to my group makeup, undervalue agility (~1.6 EP) and as such T5 rings and even the Violet Eye ring are better. Still, that and the [Vindicator's Band of Triumph] are easy grinds for any shaman looking for guaranteed upgrades to their raid gear.
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| #5824 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Xoya |
Alright, I know I should know how to do this, but I'm still unsure of exactly what level of "buffed stats" to input when I check "BoK' on Yo's simulator. Much, much earlier in the thread I remember someone saying, "Buff yourself with kings and mark of the wild and input those numbers"; is this accurate? If not, what am I missing?
Edit: also, is the "use 30% of AP as spell power" button working yet? If not, how should I handle that? | |||||||||||
| #5825 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Rob |
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I believe (hope?) Yo's sim will already account for the extra 10% increase in STR and AGI given by SoE/GoA with the BoK box checked. If it does, it probably also accounts the extra increase for MotW, and for buffs such as Roasted Clefthoof, Elixir of Major Agility, etc. But since you mention MotW specifically, if you want to get the contribution of Kings on MotW you may also need to add 4 AP and 0.01% crit. This should not be enough to significantly affect the output and I don't bother with this step. Last edited by Rob : 12/26/07 at 5:00 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5876 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Tumbo |
If two weapons have the same speed, would one have to worry about the OH locking the MH from proccing WF?
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| #5877 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | vorda | ||||||||||||
| #5878 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Draco Argentum |
I'm trying to find the maths proving WF > GoA. Didn't the first post have the links at one point. It looks like Malan has cleaned it up and improved the formatting. At the same time the maths has gone. I'm trying to prove that we need WF in the melee group but without the maths all I have is argumentum ad verecundiam.
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| #5879 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Vareyn |
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| #5880 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Strygwyr |
Just a random question here, does it make sense theoreticly that at a certain point of gear, crit rating will be worth more then strength?
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| #5881 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Maybe if you had managed to gear yourself entirely in +Strength gear with absolutely no crit of any sort. Not sure if it would actually be worth *more* but it might approach the value. Strength will never be worth less than 2 since its 2 AP and I think you'd be hard pressed to find any sort of actual in-game gear that could make any stat worth more than that.
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| #5882 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Karok(EU) | ||||||||||||
| #5883 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Smokestomp |
Not sure if this was covered somewhere in the threat, but its not in the OP afaik.
For enhance shamans that are enchanters aswell: +2 weapon damage, or +4 stats for rings. From what I understand, the +2 increases in value as attack speed increases through flurry/drums/heroism/DST. Is this the case with +4 stats aswell? Stats feels more well rounded and "hybrid" like, but for raw dps in PVE, I'm just not entirely decided. | |||||||||||
| #5884 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Pitbuller |
+2 damage to both weapons.(no oh penalty)
So AEP value for 2.6 speed weapons 2 *(2 / 2.6) = 1.538wDps Using 8.48 ep per wDps +2dam = 13.05ep But mental quickness inflate wDps ep by 0.85multiplier so its only 11.09ep. Stats is superior. 16.8ep + 4* stamina, int & spi. All stats scales when "attack speed increases through flurry/drums/heroism/DST." not just +2dmg. | |||||||||||
| #5885 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | seminarca |
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Weapon availability is a potential issue, I used wowhead filters (this one is from lvl 40 to 50) and then scanned the AH for this stuff off and on. When I hit 42 I had two [Skullcrusher Mace] sitting in my mailbox, one of them had a bullshit enchant (of the Whale or something) but the weapon speed and dps was more important. [Corpse Harvester] at 50. Picked up a [Ripsaw] at some point in time, after the 2.3 revamp there's the excellent [Spirit of the Faerie Dragon] from a fairly trivial Feralas quest chain if you don't want to instance. | |||||||||||
| #5886 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | BoinKlasik |
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For weapons, the AH always served me well in that regard. | |||||||||||
| #5887 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Strygwyr |
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Well, i did socket nearly all my gear with +8 str gems, currently 1650 AP and 29% crit, and Yo's sim is showing that crit rating is worth more for me then Str, i tested with 1000 hours and 10000 hours. | |||||||||||
| #5888 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Diabolos |
Weights -- Not directly addressed in the original post
I have noticed a few things about the shaman that I have yet to actually Read in any forums...
I've noticed that for every 100 AP, I recieve ~33.333 Bonus Spell DMG, regardless of if the AP bonus is from STR or raw AP. In addition, I have noticed that Critical Strike Rating (NOT Agility) yields a slight addition to Spell Critical Strike (Something like a 20% Yield. For every 1% Melee crit achieved from Crit Rating grants ~.2% Spell Crit). Also -- Considering the vast improvements in 2.3 to Mana Efficiency, Shocks are a notably larger contributor to DPS than before, assuming the Focused State & Water Shield will have a ~90% Uptime. | |||||||||||
| #5889 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
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Point 2 - No. Absolutely no. If you're going to make a ludicrous statement like that you'd *damn well* better have some combat logs or screenshots of the char screen to back it up, and it would still be a bug. Melee Critical Strike Rating is not intended to provide spell crit. Point 3 - Its been rehashed ad nauseam in this thread you aren't telling us anything we aren't aware of. Last edited by Malan : 12/30/07 at 1:59 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5890 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Ilmatar |
What is the Flurry uptime % from those sim runs, Strygwyr?
This is a total guess, and honestly I'm on vacation so I don't want to look up anything, but my guess is that you are going to see value on crit drop to a more normal value as soon as you get a bit over 30% crit. I think that the reason why crit may be showing up higher than strength is because the haste gained from attaining near 100% flurry uptime is going to increase your white dps significantly, due to the high AP you are packing. The other part of this valuing is Unleashed Rage uptime, as well, I think. Just my shot in the dark. If I'm wrong, someone else can correct me ![]() Edit: ![]()
Last edited by Ilmatar : 12/30/07 at 1:57 PM. Reason: Added question about m.c.r.->s.c.r. | |||||||||||
| #5891 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Strygwyr |
It shows my FLurry uptime to be 78%, probably because my MH speed and my OH speed dont match, i hve a 2.7 MH and 2.6 OH. Black planar Edge and Glads Cleaver, i also have a decapitator i could wield if it would increase my DPS.
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| #5892 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ilmatar |
Okay that's a reasonable flurry uptime, I think it's probably a result of the UR uptime, then; or bad input/bug.
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| #5893 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | testthewest |
Crit versus AP (Str)
Someone a few posts above mine said crit rating was affecting his dps more than strength. Some other person then replied that this isn't possible.
I would like to add, that theoretical it is possible, since AP (or Str) adds dmg linear, while Crit multiplies the dps you have. Asuming you have a 100dps weapon, 4200 AP and 10% crit (I know: very strange values, but I wanna make a pont here; furthermore I ignore hit here for a sec). then you have 400dps and 10% crit, which leads to 345dps. Player A adds 22,1str, Player B adds 22,1 critrating. Player A now has 4244,2 AP and still 10% crit: => 403,15718 * 1,10 = 442,47285dps Player B still sits at 4200AP, but has 11% crit now. =>400*1,11 = 444dps As you see, adding crit improved the dps more than adding more AP. The values for AP might seem high, but thats just to prove the point, and I'm too lazy to calculate flurry in, which will help crit even more, so that the breaking point, where crit gets better than AP is lower. | |||||||||||
| #5894 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
No, the person said that the simulator was reporting an EP value of Crit as being higher than Strength (2 or 2.2 with Kings).
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| #5895 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | testthewest |
EP value misunderstandings?
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Good Sir, I might have a huge misunderstanding here. I thought, the EP value was to compare the impact of stats on dps, in comparison to AP. If this is true, its there can be no static value for crit rating (I know, old news). The original poster wanted to know if under certain circumstance it is thinkable, that critrating has a higher impact on his dps, an therefore a higher EP value. I gave an example. | |||||||||||
| #5896 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Ok yah, thought you were referring to the guy a page back that had funny sim results. But yah I said the same thing earlier - for some obscene values of AP vs Crit you could have that happen, but its not like you could ever construct such a gear set from whats available anyways.
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| #5897 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Daagar |
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One value I didn't know how to correct for was Boss Armor. Obviously, 4400 is going to be too high... is there a formula or even a way to ballpark the values? | |||||||||||
| #5898 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ankha |
First post, and a question...
Ok its my first day on this site, and I had a talent question.
Why do so many talent builds choose 2 pts in Anticipation over 2 pts in Guardian Totems. Is there something I'm not getting? The 1 sec reduced cooldown on the grounding totem seems like a very useful thing. -Ankha | |||||||||||
| #5899 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | DaveA50 |
Could it be that when you switched an item that had crit rating on it, that you gained int as well? Because int does add to spell crit rating...
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| #5900 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Shabadu |
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-ankha | |||||||||||
| #5901 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Gehenna |
well
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| #5902 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | kevagron |
I'm struggling a bit with the "slow is better" concept although I understand the basic idea.
My quandary is that I recently killed Kovork on an alt and his Rattle dropped (38-72 dam, 3.00 speed, OH, 18.3 dps +2 str +5agi). I'm level 55 and have Mass of McGowan banked for lvl 57 for MH but does the 0.2 slower speed of Kovork's make it better than Smashing Star of the Monkey (62-115, 2.8 speed, OH, 31.6 dps, 6 agi & stam) I've just tried working through the maths for the OH and it says my damage (using max damage number) would be 258 with Kovork and 212 with Smashing Star. WF damage would be 340 with Kovork and 392 with Smashing Star. Do these seem reasonable? Roughly 320 AP atm unbuffed/self buffed (yes, my gear sucks - bloody hunter mail) Are my maths right? Is Kovork's a better OH than a lvl 48 mace that's only 0.2 seconds slower? Thanks for any responses, I did try :-) | |||||||||||
| #5903 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | beetlejuice |
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2% extra dodge won't save you, i mean, all experienced people know that you dodge certain times in a pve raid, you are not a target of a mob all the time. In these certain times, 20 or 22% dodge will have the same effect. To actualy see a difference in the dodges, means that you will get targeted and hit from mobs alot, which for our class and spec never happens. | |||||||||||
| #5904 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
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| #5905 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Martyrbg |
Hello, I greatly enjoyed reading this guide, it includes some awesome and well backed-up analysis that I used to maximize my enhancement shaman's DPS output. Just a tip: you may like to add epic BT/Hyjal gems to the gem itemization section, e.g. [Bold Crimson Spinel] instead of [Bold Living Ruby], [Inscribed Pyrestone] instead of [Inscribed Noble Topaz], [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] instead of [Sovereign Nightseye]. These are currently the best non-BoP options around for anyone that has reached T6 level. I noticed this was suggested earlier in the thread and I would like to support it. If the guide is to include T6-level weapons, it would be logical to include T6-level gems as well, as the best top-end choice. I hope this post have been of use to you
Keep up the good work! | |||||||||||
| #5906 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | panny |
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Don't forget dodging a Hamstring, Mortal Strike, or possible mace stun is pretty cool too, you just don't notice that 2% of the time when it was a result of your talent points. | |||||||||||
| #5907 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | • Aeolian |
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Last edited by Aeolian : 12/31/07 at 3:05 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5908 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5909 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bladefire |
Leather vs Mail Armor
I have recently started low level raids (Kara) at the beginning of November and am currently doing Gruul / some ZA now too. I have been following the principles set forth thread to properly gear my Shaman and I am producing amazing DPS as well as dying more often than I would like. I have been designing my character based on EP values which is pointing me in the direction of leather armor. Leather "Rogue" gear as you know has no int, less armor but generally has higher stam as well as overall EP. I thought the higher stam would offset the loss in armor from mail. I am not sure if I should stay with leather (minus the T4 shaman set which I will be wearing) or go with a mix or full mail?
Strength: 206 Agility: 364 Stamina: 428 Intellect: 165 Spirit: 128 Armor: 4146 Health: 7259 Damage: 478 - 639 Speed: 2.55 Power: 1444 Hit Rating: 130 Crit Chance: 27.67% Expertise: 3 The World of Warcraft Armory I know that I need to replace the helm (including meta gem but I didn't want to do this till I have a new helm), chest, waist, trinkets, etc. I just wanted to make sure before I spend a lot a badges in the direction that I am going that it's not wrong. Second, since I started switching to some leather pieces I have changed my pawn value of stam to .25 so I can have a health increase. Why is there no Pawn value for stam or armor (depends on the answer to the above)? It would seem to me as armor decreases that the value of stam would increase. I am not asking for gear choices as I can choose those from this amazingly informative thread but just to understand why that some top shaman wear just mail, some a mix and some leather. I want to be productive in my progression without having to backtrack and rebuild. Thank you and HAPPY NEW YEAR! ![]() | |||||||||||
| #5910 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | berg |
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I know that looking at the difference between Karazhan values and T6 values seems dramatic, but keep in mind that there are 3 dozen or so gear upgrades made in that span. If you have access to a piece of loot that is a clear upgrade now then go for it, you will not regret it. | |||||||||||
| #5911 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bladefire |
Leather vs Mail Armor
I guess what I am asking is leather with a much higher EP and stam or mail with the lower EP value and higher armor? I have seen Beowolf's wonderful spreadsheet with the highest gear being leather, keiji wears a mix and other wear all mail. Is there a value or calcuation that can be applied to the armor value and stam to help evaluate pieces for us when we have this choice? What is the crossover point between armor and stam?
Example: It looks to me based on my armor that 1 point of armor equals .0068% reduction in damage. | |||||||||||
| #5912 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Pyre |
The question you're asking doesn't apply to stat evaluation very well, since the evalution is based on damage out, not damage in. The question I have is really why are you dying? If it's not an agro issue, and you're just dying on fights like Aran, Illhoof, Nightbane, etc., then adding armor won't help much, if at all. If it is an agro issue, then obviously correcting that will solve the problem itself.
You might want to consider continuing to use the spreadsheet for your regular gear kit, then selectively swapping into higher stamina pieces for the fights you're having difficulty with. | |||||||||||
| #5913 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
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There's a few slots where the mail and leather items are close enough in value that i told the rogues and our feral druid that I'd stick to mail on those items to lower the competition. | |||||||||||
| #5914 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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Stamina is only as useful as any given encounter allows it to be. If an encounter has an ability that deals heavy damage you want more HP than that damage. If an encounter has two abilities that do moderate damage you want to have enough HP to survive both abilities because chances are they can be used in succession. Stamina and armor really shouldn't play a role in your gear selections, although I am guilty of it myself, because you can always swap in items to help you meet the HP thresholds of any given fight. | |||||||||||
| #5915 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Bladefire |
Leather vs Mail Armor
Thanks for the responses.
No, I am not pulling aggo. If I do, yes, I deserve to die, final answer. We have a rule, you pull it you tank it.... doesn't work very well for Shaman, lol. You wipe the party by pulling aggro... you pay the bill. Just died early on Gruul with other Rogues from the cave ins and what not.. but you all have answered my questions and I can continue on my course to Shaman glory. Thank you. P.S. I just wanted to thank everyone for your contributions to this thread. The theorycrafting article, mods (Pawn, Disco Dice), Yo's Sim..... it really helps alot of people. (Ok, I will disappear again. I am sure I will have a question in a few months). Last edited by Bladefire : 01/01/08 at 2:15 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5916 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | death_Phobos |
t6 Values
Hi
I'm following this thread quite long, but now i have to ask something. 1)High Raid (T6) EP Values Attack Power = 1 EP Strength = 2.2 EP Agility = 1.69 EP Crit Rating = 1.74 EP Hit Rating = 1.69 Haste Rating = 1.82 Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP Expertise Rating = 3.18 How is it possible that without Kings Strenght has the Value 2.2 and Ap 1 ? 1.1 -> 2.2 OR 1.0 ->2.0 2) Is Kings not adding effectively 11% strength cause of UR ? | |||||||||||
| #5917 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Stopokingme |
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Shammy and Shaman are both the same length, the only difference being the last two letters.And to add some content at least to this post a tip on how to avoid those Cave Ins for Bladefire. While having somewhat higher health and armor makes them easier to survive, the best thing you can do is install SCT and move whenever you see the Cave In debuff pop up on it. That way you should take perhaps a rare few ticks during the fight. Don't be afraid to move out of dps range for a while while doing that. | |||||||||||
| #5918 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | gorsameth |
That is with kings Death_phobos cause your right with 1 str being 2 ap.
As for your second question, this would also make 1 ap worth 1.1 ep. which pretty much screws it up as a baseline. so yes kings adds an effective 11% and not 10 but as 1 ap = 1ep this is pretty much ignored | |||||||||||
| #5919 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ankha |
Addon quetion
Anybody want to share any addons for shammys they couldnt see playing without? I downloaded Enhancer and Disqodice already but was unhappy with all the symbols around the character, should I just give it time and work through the distractions? I for one use another addon called Shamanfriend that gives info on alor of Shaman action in battle. -Ankha
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| #5920 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • Binkenstein |
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Strength goes from 2 to 2.2 AP because with kings you'll have 1.1 str for every point you have without it (thus, with kings it's AP value is 2.2). | |||||||||||
| #5921 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Quaunaut |
Looking through the gem choices I've made in the past I'm suddenly wondering how AP can be so important a stat. Currently I have a 24.73% chance to crit, and 941 AP. If I was to switch out all my full yellow +8 crit rating gems for +4 crit rating and 4 str, I'd lose about .5%, while gaining only 24 AP. Would this truly be a boon to my DPS? That just seems horribly off.
Or is it that there is a cutoff point, where once you get so much crit when raid buffed, the AP overtakes as the important stat(because of temporary buff uptime)? | |||||||||||
| #5922 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | vorda |
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| #5923 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | • frotes |
I believe he means that there is a typo because it says WITHOUT kings str is 2.2 instead of WITH kings.
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| #5924 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ◊ Malan |
Yes the T6 values do include Kings, sorry. Sebudai posted that he had used kings and I had missed it and forgot to update the post.
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| #5925 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Quaunaut | ||||||||||||
| #5951 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
You click to Purge? o.O
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| #5952 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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A 2H (MS) warrior, should be using a slam cycle for maximum dps. Slam can't proc WF so they effectively only gain 3-5% more damage from WF, therefore if you were presented with a group such as MS warrior/hunter/hunter/rogue/shaman I would drop GoA, especially if the hunters are BM. So yeah I don't like this broad statement that dps warrior = WF, is very misleading. | |||||||||||
| #5953 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Remraf |
Uh.. yea? I don't find myself needing to spam Purge that much.. so to have it on a nice big sphere right where my cursor usually is leads to quicker purges when i *do* need them. (I have it hotkeyed to 6, which is sorta far from the main usuable keys). | |||||||||||
| #5954 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
Many of the eternal debates posed in this forum are due to differences in philosophy. It boils down to which is more important to you: personal DPS, or raid DPS.
Personal DPS Often marked by an elemental off spec. Will roll on any upgrade, regardless of armor type. Drops GoA. Will sacrifice stam/armor for DPS stats. Will sacrifice int/mp5 for DPS stats. Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed 26.4 EP. Raid DPS Often marked by a resto off spec. Will pick up leather only if nobody else wants it, if at all. Drops WF pretty much everywhere; may totem twist if mana allows. Wants at least some stam/armor to make it easier for the healers. Wants at least some int/mp5 to sustain shocks within a twisting cycle. Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed the benefit +12 STR offers the entire group. Most of the regulars here are very raid oriented. Most of the new people are having personal DPS issues, that's why there here. It makes sense these issues would keep coming up. Incidentally: I am taking my guild's raid downtime to re-evaluate the elemental spec and am noticing a ~6% personal DPS increase. Today is my last day, though -- I miss the faster Healing Wave and bigger totem radius, and I'm seeing more shock resists making interrupts and snares less reliable. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 3:46 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5955 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Unaz |
I pretty much spam purge constantly when in cooldown on shocks/SS our of habit. On mobs that need to be purged, you have to do it pretty much constantly to catch things quickly, and in PvP I'll moderate it a bit based on current mana and things like Lifebloom. But yeah, I don't think I'd be able to get anything done if purge was used for clicking.
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| #5956 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Einahpets |
I haven't gone through the last pages with a fine tooth comb or whatever, but I was wondering if it was at all possible, since you have commented the T6 content items and EP values on the main post, if you could possibly post which Hyjal/Black Temple gems are best suited for enhancement shamans? Thanks alot
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| #5957 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Rob |
They're obviously the purple versions of the blue gems that are listed in the main post.
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| #5958 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Joy |
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I know that if I am a couple of seconds slow on my twisting due to having to heal or move some groups around mid combat my DPS Warrior lets me know about it! However in the group you have quoted I don't argue the use of GoA, although I would personally twist. Am I the only one praying twisting isn't removed because of how boring Enhance is without it? | |||||||||||
| #5959 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Kasi |
A warrior uses slams in between auto attacks. You don't chain slams without due to the auto swing, otherwise it kills your dps. Thus a warrior still gets 20% of his white auto attacks into WF.
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| #5960 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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I mean, it's not like we're Elemental over here. Have you considered twisting Fire Nova and Searing/Magma? It's worth, like, 40 extra DPS for two actions every 15s and might get your heart rate up. Something to do with all that extra mana you'll have, too. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 6:49 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5961 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Bragor |
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10 Str > 5 Crit/5 Str for Pure dps. Anybody in Tier 6 content finding that the 2xSONs (Syphon of the Natherizm) are better then the new S3 weapons for dps ? Been running it in about 3 simulators & they all show that the SONs are better. | |||||||||||
| #5962 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Stopokingme | ||||||||||||
| #5963 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Capital |
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2. Again, doesn't affect raid dps. 3. Thats just completely wrong. 4. And so should every shaman, I can't even name 1 time where the added armor from mail would have saved me. 5. Same, mp/5 is way too expensive to award getting some. 6. Ah, well I must admit I changed it early, but thats because the item I wanted to get instead was about to be dissed. 12 str in a group that greatly consists of rogues isn't that great anyway. ![]()
2. Thats just...wrong 3. 'meh, I'd say twisting is generally an aspect of the more raid concentrated shaman, I myself don't do it because I just can't see the fun in spamming buttons, and it generally takes my attention away from important events, such as death. 4. Stamina comes with the gear, It's really hard to have less than 11k health at T5 level with 2 warriors in your group. 5. Int and MP/5 are really expensive stats for our class, you should -not- be aiming for it at all. This looks more of a good player vs bad player list than a well composed list of playstyles. | |||||||||||
| #5964 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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How much did your own philosophy color your reading of the post? I tried to explain how opposing viewpoints on contentious issues may be attributed to philosophical differences, and you called them "wrong." I think so too. That's kind of my point. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 7:44 PM. | |||||||||||
| #5965 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Capital |
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To not turn this into a quotewar, a point from me. Say you have 2 shamans, 1 resto and 1 enhancement. Who would you put with the tank for Gift of Air? Reason I bring it up, when my guild does/did Morogrim, we would rather have a druid tank than a warrior, makes for some nice soaking. And druids just love agility, so we also give/gave him a Gift of Air totem. In the end what shaman you'd use boils down to if you want more damage or more stability in the fight. What do you guys think would be the best shammy to sacrifice? | |||||||||||
| #5966 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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| #5967 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | spanko |
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For reference: http://spanko.shackspace.com/2xsyphon.JPG http://spanko.shackspace.com/2xvengeful.JPG | |||||||||||
| #5968 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Shabadu |
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| #5969 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Nemaa |
In my case Syphons were on par with the Vengeful weapons. The simulation result was 1504 DPS in both cases.
I suppose I have better stats than you, what made the 0.2 weapon speed of the syphons equal to the dps and stat advantage of the vengeful weapons. A 0.2 slower weapon hits harder with WF and SS. An Orc would make better use of the Vengeful Axes though. | |||||||||||
| #5970 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ankha |
Gear question
I've been doing BG's since I hit 70 (1 month ago), and I got some honor and marks now.
Question: should I be purchasing the Sesion 1 gear? Or save my honor points for other slots like rings and such that arnt arena gear options. ... I am getting my Arena batteles in, but arena points arnt really farmable as Honor is. | |||||||||||
| #5971 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Aett |
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Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) there isn't much of any choice while gearing for PvP so I recommend just looking at what you can get, how much it costs, and how soon you can get it and then determine what your ideal plan is. Do it with pencil and paper if that is better for you. There isn't really any "better" way to go about it since you're going to wind up with the same gear in the end. [Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ? is probably a better place for this discussion since it's becoming the de-facto enhancement PvP thread. If this answer isn't satisfactory I'd go ask the question again (maybe with a bit more detail) in that thread. | |||||||||||
| #5972 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | rava |
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| #5973 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Gehenna |
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Serida - WWS amazing DPS, 0 slams. Not sure why a warrior decide to never slam, seems like a good ability to me when quartz is enabled, but apperently there are other options. | |||||||||||
| #5974 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Joy |
He is using hamstring with WF pre nerf.
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| #5975 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | panny | ||||||||||||
| #5976 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Kasi |
The fight was 3 minutes long. He has top of the line gear. He had a feral druid, had haste 4 times (probably DST), used deathwish, used recklessness and was bloodlusted all on a fight where there is some aoe damage that fuels his rage. I'd be surprised if he didn't pull those numbers considering the cooldowns he used.
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| #5977 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Joy |
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edit waaaaay off topic, preaching to the converted etc | |||||||||||
| #5978 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Atren |
Seems thread broke 1 mil views :P
Anyways, concerning last few posts -- its a very short fight and all cooldowns used so if fight went 3 times as long his dps would take clear dive. 2 min fights are never good to compare regardless if it is shaman, warrior or any other class. Bloodlust is 10 min cooldown, Recklessness is 30 min cooldown and so on, so it can leave very skewed look from dps point of view. | |||||||||||
| #5979 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | spanko | ||||||||||||
| #5980 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Draco Argentum |
But this maths was removed from the main post. A link should be put back, then telling people to go read the main post would be reasonable. At present the main post just has the answer with no backup, no wonder people want to question it.
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| #5981 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | TradewindKlaatubarada |
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Plus, as someone has commented previously, getting stam/armor makes no difference at all. If some fight requires stamina you equip your PvP gear to reach safe limits, as you do with SR and so on and so on. At most, you get hybrid stamina gems when socket bonus makes up for it without causing much of a loss. Getting int/mp5 is just ridiculous, you didn't need mp5 before previous patch neither you do now that shocks cost more than a half less. Basically, mana has never been an issue for enhancement and you better go with extra AP to do more damage / regain more mana. That statement shows how clueless you are on enhancement shaman mechanics. There's an excellent first page where Malan trys to keep stuff up to date for a reason. Please, read it. At this point there's no need to keep on commenting your post. We can continue this discussion as soon as you get a clue on enhancement mechanics. | |||||||||||
| #5982 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Mox |
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In his damage breakdown he usually has about 30% of total damage as slams and only 5% of dmg as WFs, rest is white/MS/whirlwinds. This is comparable to our other MS warrior who rarely uses slam, his WF damage is about 15% or so of total damage but his overall damage is usually much less than the other using slam. Theres also some fights, Illidari council/Illidan for example where we rotate out melee for ranged for obvious reasons, so often get a group like rogue/rogue/hunter/hunter/myself, the rogues happily use double poisons + GoA cause they know its better for hunters on those occasions. Alot of the omgomgomgomg WF/GoA comes from selfishness of players, I just adopt the "if more people get benefit from X than Y then drop X" and have never had any compliants. | |||||||||||
| #5983 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Rhagok |
You have some interessting Rogues there ^^ Mine have learnedd the prefference of WF a long time ago and they woould definitely be bitching if I dropped GoA. Anyway doesn´t matter, cause twisting is about the only thing keeping me from falling asleep during Raids 8)
So go TWIST !!! anybody who´s group makeup is somewhat strange! All of your group members will love you! | |||||||||||
| #5984 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Durigen |
I could be wrong, and apologize if I am. But I believe it's generally agreed upon that the term "DPS Warrior", POST WF nerf, means a dual-wielding fury warrior. For them, with such a huge number of white damage attacks, the WF totem enchant is positively amazing.
If that WWS Parse is from Pre-WF-nerf then the DPS output will be on a level that all but the absolute best geared warriors cannot compare with. Pre-nerf the MS warrior was absolutely devastating. So while most MS warriors that raid, use a Slam cycle between white attacks. Generally the equation for WF totem is designed in reference to modern Fury warriors, and past MS warriors. | |||||||||||
| #5985 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Urstroyer |
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If you trade your dual syphons for s3 weapons you gain the following stats: -> -32 attack power ( 2x34ap vs. 2x 50ap) -> +16 hit rating (2x 8 hit rating vs. 0 hit rating) -> +42 crit rating (2x 21 crit rating vs. 0 crit rating) -> +98 armor penetration (2x 49 armor penetration vs. 0 armor penetration) based on the ep values for high end gear listed in malan's posting only the stat gain is worth about 102 ep (weapon speed and dps unconsidered). i don't really know, how to weight the weapon proc of the syphons but i doubt they would make a big difference. | |||||||||||
| #5986 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the warrior slam rotation discussion would best fit here - [Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
and not here - Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I | |||||||||||
| #5987 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
Tradewind, don't start. I was trying to codify the opinions that OTHER SHAMANS have, in the past, posted in this thread and attribute them to some body of belief about how to play a character (so we could avoid fighting over them in the future). I don't hold those views myself, which if you'd check my armory you'd understand. 80% leather, 7500 health, 5000 mana and very nice DPS stats.
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| #5988 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Nemaa |
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The proc of the double syphons are around 2500 damage in a 3 minute encounter (~14 DPS). | |||||||||||
| #5989 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan | ||||||||||||
| #5990 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Tsalrioth |
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| #5991 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ung |
Hi thanks for the posts regarding WF totem a few pages back.
I was wondering if there was anywhere i can find the actual numbers for wf vs goa. I tried the search engine but all the results just basically said. WF if a warrior is in group etc. Which sadly is not enough to persuade the GoA lovers. thanks. | |||||||||||
| #5992 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
You can find some of the breakdown here - Windfury Totem Change
Not sure if non-benefactors can access it right now, that's in the archives which are currently not visible to the public for some reason. Results in that thread though showed that warriors still benefit far far more from WF than from GoA. Rogues that are combat sword still get more from WF than GoA, daggers its neck and neck with WF in a slight lead. This thread http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t15993-p...issues_signup/ was supposed to test this stuff but I don't recall whatever came of it. | |||||||||||
| #5993 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 Edited onPatch 2.3.0 | Ung |
Any chance you could PM./ post here the maths? pretty please
?Last edited by Ung : 01/03/08 at 11:59 AM. | |||||||||||
| #5994 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | ♦ Malan |
Well in the case of Rogues, Vulajin, who maintains the rogue spreadsheets, did some napkin math at the time and showed that WF totem should provide around 85 dps (+ extra energy procs that he didn't model the feedback for) compared to GoA adding around 41 dps. (note that this was all done immediately after the change to WF totem to only proc from white attacks)
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| #5995 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Gehenna |
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| #5996 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Ankha |
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| #5997 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Paradox |
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Is it just my weird AEP numbers or aren't Softstep the best boots of them all? at least 20 AEP ahead of Shadowmaster's in my case. Would be nice to know what they look like for other peoples values. | |||||||||||
| #5998 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Dekkan |
I rate Shadowmaster's as 4.6 AEP higher than Softstep. Not a huge difference, but better.
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| #5999 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | Illundai |
Tiny little bit better for me too. :P
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| #6000 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.0 | paulg002 |
I have been reading this thread for several months now. It is hands down, the best reference for Enhancement Shaman and thank you for putting this together.
Several posts have come close but have not actually answered a question I have. (If they are, please send me back in to find it, I would rather just find it 1st than waste everyone's time by repeating already answered questions.) I have just hit 70 last week and I'm grinding EOTS for my off hand. I have already created my main hander, the Drakefist Hammer. As you know this is a 2.7 speed weapon. From what I have read, the goal would be to have 2 slow weapons but also of the same speed. Right now, I have this. I am off handing The Fist of reckoning. but this is a level 88 weapon and is very out dated. My options for an off hander at level 115 or better with a 2.7 or slower speed are out of the question for me at this point. It will have to be 2.6. This means that I will be using an offhanded that is faster than my main hander. Has anyone done any graphing that reflects some sort of DPS loss as the offhand weapon speed decreases relative to the main hand's? | |||||||||||
| #6101 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | cerberos |
Ty for your fast reply indeed.
I see. So fury in the bank ![]() Because of the fury that have a red gem, (which i put 16 ap), i lost also around to 15 ap with this combination. Anyway, do you know if the executioner is on Offhand, i have any problems? | |||||||||||
| #6102 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Illundai |
Did anyone reach a final conclusion on the uptime of Dragonstrike? We finally got another Rising Tide this week which I picked up and I'd like to compare the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the sim provides an unreasonable uptime for the proc. At the moment I'm not convinced RT/Syphon is better than my previous DS/Syphon... so, does anyone have an more accurate uptime?
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| #6103 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Paradox |
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| #6104 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Ilmatar |
I would use Fury over S2 Gladiator Offhand. Weighing in the weapon stats, I think that Fury edges out S2 by a small margin. Executioner is also what I'd put on it
Grats. | |||||||||||
| #6105 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Rhagok |
He uses S2 in the MH.
And concerning the MH - OH discussion on Execuctioner. I still think that the Mainhand is the favorable hand to have it on, because the hit that does proc the enchant does not benefit from it, so having it on the OH means your MH will be the first to profit from the Exec proc. and that is a good thing ^^ | |||||||||||
| #6106 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | vorda |
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| #6107 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ◊ Malan |
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| #6108 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | tzenes |
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However, if you do just the opposite and It does proc off of flame shock. Despite the order, it seems as though the totem will effect whatever ability it is equiped after. Please confirm this. Last edited by tzenes : 01/08/08 at 11:03 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6109 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ◊ Binkenstein |
The reason that it works for casting is that it is equipped when the spell is cast.
I think Ilmatar was trying to set up macros that equipped the totem for the next action, rather than the current one. In either case though, I think it'll be a bit hard to manage efficently. | |||||||||||
| #6110 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | • Disquette |
Thanks very much Malan! You can actually do that on your own by setting the alpha level to .01 (or maybe 0 works). I forget how I wrote it, but I'm pretty sure I put in the facility for people to turn it off when watershield was active, and only display full red when you don't have the buff.
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| #6111 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Birr |
I am feeling incredibly weak as an enhancement shaman. I have read the first post, taken notes, and considered the aspects of my class and role before beginning to gear myself. I have been using Enhancer with my personal AEP values and Pawn with the Low Raid values to determine upgrades and gear choices. The problems comes down to the fact that I do not put out nearly the same amount of DPS as other melee DPS in my Kara raid group; unfortunately I cannot discover the true heart of the problem.
I think that it is either, 1) My off-hand weapon is so horrible that it is ruining my overall DPS; or 2) My hit rating is in fact too high and I have neglected the importance of Strength/AP and Crit. Considering the first point I am currently using [Fist of Reckoning] as an off-hand. I know, I know, I can hear the groans now, but I have had extremely horrible luck in the level 70 instances, and I feel too weak to attempt a heroic or even find a group for one. My goal is to finish grinding out the honor for [Gladiator's Pummeler] so that I will be wielding two of them. I am hesitant to enchant either weapon before I know it will be worth the focus and money I am going to spend. I am incredibly confused because Enhancer is showing that the Pummeler is great for MH but I will get more benefit from [Fool's Bane] in OH. Is this because Fool's has more passive stats and Enhancer is ignoring the DPS difference? For point two I simply think my hit rating is too high and have a negative effect on my DPS. I'm at 200 hit + 9% from talents but my Attack Power and Crit Rating seem to be suffering. I hit often but I hit for very little. Is this a combined problem between my weapon quality and my hit rating? I am not asking for a gear check & personalized advice, but my guild has made it to Aran in Kara and I feel that I pale in comparison to our DPS warrior. I bring buffs to the table for him but I think my lackluster DPS is a huge detriment. | |||||||||||
| #6112 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Atren |
OH difference is less than 2 dps which makes it so small difference once you also add AP to it. The stats on Fool are way better and therefor it is better weapon than S1 gladiator for OH. If you have Fool's you can use it over S1, but it is one of those will it drop and will i get it things.
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| #6113 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | xereva |
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A nice craftable item which is a good upgrade is for example [Shadowprowler's Chestguard]. A [Gladiator's Pummeler] in your offhand would be great (and don't count on one specific drop to happen...) I would advice to enchant both with mongoose (yes, it is expensive...). Also focus on you other enchants. Your bracers are 'missing' +12 str, your helm is 'missing' + [Glyph of Ferocity] (34 ap, 16 hit), you legs could use [Cobrahide Leg Armor] (40 ap, 10 crit), you shoulders can use [Inscription of Vengeance] (26 ap), you cloak can user the +12 agi enchant, you chest the +6 to all stats enchant, etc. So just with good enchanting you can get like 24+ 34 + 40+ 26 + 12 = 136 ap and some crit (and hit). So don't underestimate the use of good enchants... Last edited by xereva : 01/09/08 at 4:48 AM. | |||||||||||
| #6114 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Pitbuller |
If you cant get epic red gem [Netherbane] is better than [Fury] for my stat weights(I weight wDPS too. 0.85* 4.24ep for off hand) And dont bother with executioner before you get very high end gear. Its very easy to test with Yo's sim which one is better.(waepons or enchants)
Last edited by Pitbuller : 01/09/08 at 9:59 AM. | |||||||||||
| #6115 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | adlwow |
Crusader is a pretty inexpensive enchant - under 100g for the mats on my server. Being a bit thrifty I've used that as a temporary enchant while waiting for better weapon to drop (but I didn't bother with enchants at all on blue weapons). Your hit is pretty high - you could try for a different trinket to replace the +hit one. Your dps will improve dramatically as you continue to raid and gain upgrades, just hang in there!
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| #6116 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Prost |
Birr,
I struggled the same way when my guild was in your spot. As Adlwow said, crusader is an easy enchant to farm mats for and get on both weapons. Also, look into getting the Hourglass of the Unraveler from the second boss in Black Morass. When I finally got it, I was noticing a huge DPS increase from the three procs (at least at that point in content). Hope that helps. | |||||||||||
| #6117 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Birr |
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And yeah that hit trinket definitely needs to go. Temporus should be going down a lot more often as I help other people get keyed for Kara. /fingercross | |||||||||||
| #6118 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Delita |
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That point is moot since Fool's Bane is MH only. I had this same issue in Kara until I could obtain enough Primal Nethers for my 1Hed Axe I made from smithing. Shamans have very little in weapon choices from PvE content until Al'ar and Netherbane (Your hunters will hate you btw) or conversely Rage/Fury from ZA. Your best bet is too keep trying for that S1 Pummeler and as was mentioned earlier, Crusader is a very easy enchant to buy, especially if you know someone that farms LBSes for the AH. | |||||||||||
| #6119 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Pitbuller |
[Fool's Bane] and [The Decapitator] isn't mh only or unique anymore. Item link lies.
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fool's Bane Thottbot World of Warcraft: The Decapitator | |||||||||||
| #6120 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Delita |
An interesting note I didn't know about, thanks for that.
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| #6121 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Simian LeSinge |
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If the totem equipping works as Tzenes states, then no thought is required on the part of the shammy to have stonebreaker equip for every shock, and to have increased WF damage for at least some of the rest of the time. All it takes is to macro the equips to your shocks and SS. The main issue I can see with this at the moment is the possibility of it resetting the swing timer. | |||||||||||
| #6122 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Sufferings |
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Anyways, my dps can be very sporadic because of this. For something like Terron Gorefiend, I will range from 1100 to 1500 dps week to week, without any real gear changes and in the same group with the same group setup. So ya, anyone here go from a dragonstrike to a RT and/or Syphon MH with preferably a Syphon OH? | |||||||||||
| #6123 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Durigen |
If you feel your DPS is weak...
1) As was said early, get your enchants. They can and will make a huge difference. Beyond that your hit could use to be cut in half, and that will award you a sizeable increase in AP and Crit. Don't worry about getting 'rogue' or 'feral' gear either. If your getting hit, your not doing your job right anyway (and if your DPS is so low you worry, then your not causing enough threat to pull aggro). Get the items that will maximize your role in the group DPS/Support. Also, watch your attack cycle. Alot of Enhancement Shamans seem to miss the standard rotation. Stormstrike then Earth Shock, then Flame Shock. Rinse and repeat. Make certain your Earth Shock is taking advantage of the Stormstrike debuff, and your not wasting a charge of it using Flame Shock. Or conversely, if you don't have a raid with Curse of Elements, you can just keep an ES cycle between Stormstrikes. You might want to look into some of the craftables too, just going into/conquering karazhan means that Drakefist/Dragonmaw is very very good mainhand for you (same with the axe equivalent). It takes a ton of work, granted, but I haven't even looked at another mainhand since I got mine. The haste procc (especially with 'on hit' trinkets like the Hourglass) can be huge. Also, even if this doesn't help as much as you would wish. Remember the reason that DPS warrior is doing so well, is you ![]() | |||||||||||
| #6124 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Unaz |
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| #6125 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Bluhd Wuhlf |
Dont forget the S1 gear is now available through honor and is reasonably easy/fast to get. It is a good jump start for kara as well.
I have had some bad luck on weapon drops, so am using a Emerald Ripper OH still with flametongue (I decided to get my S1 armor b4 a weapon). I have Dragonstrike as MH. My dps could definately be better, but isnt bad. So dont even though you know a slow OH is your goal, dont be afraid to take a kara dagger, especially if its just going to be sharded anyway. I generally fall in at 6-7 on the dps charts. But more importantly, i try to stay alive. I am grouped with 4 rogues generally when we raid 25 mans, and my totems and Unleashed rage have made a huge difference for the overall raid dps. I count that as part of my dps (value). I guess I made my goal as more of a support role, than trying to top the dps charts at this point. | |||||||||||
| #6126 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Bluhd Wuhlf |
Dont forget the S1 gear is now available through honor and is reasonably easy/fast to get. It is a good jump start for kara as well.
I have had some bad luck on weapon drops, so am using a Emerald Ripper OH still with flametongue (I decided to get my S1 armor b4 a weapon). I have Dragonstrike as MH. My dps could definately be better, but isnt bad. So dont even though you know a slow OH is your goal, dont be afraid to take a kara dagger, especially if its just going to be sharded anyway. I generally fall in at 6-7 on the dps charts. But more importantly, i try to stay alive. I am grouped with 4 rogues generally when we raid 25 mans, and my totems and Unleashed rage have made a huge difference for the overall raid dps. I count that as part of my dps (value). I guess I made my goal as more of a support role, than trying to top the dps charts at this point. | |||||||||||
| #6127 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Daler |
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| #6128 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Areus |
@Yo! - In one of your next Sim updates, would it be possible to include the Ret pally buffs in the Buffs/Debuffs tab. 3% crit to target with spells/melee from JoTC and Imp Sanctity Aura for 2% more raw damage.
My guild is currently running with a retPally instead of a druid in the melee group and would like to know if you can create checkboxes for thier buffs to the group as well. Both are easy enough to just manually input into the proper windows. This is just a request. | |||||||||||
| #6129 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Ilmatar |
Stonebreaker totem has a hidden cooldown of 10s, so it's possible that we could get benefit from using the macros I proposed (probably needs some tweeking). I've got farming tonight so, if I remember, I can give it a try since I have a good history of WWS data. I'll look for a drop in Stonebreaker uptime.
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| #6130 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Binkenstein |
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| #6131 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | T.K. |
Malan - The hole AEP system is calculated generating weights to stats that we should look after considering the current gear we already have, right?
The end-game AEP weights were generated by Sebudai, considering the best gear currently in game in every slot or close to, so wouldn't that AEP weights be for the next level of gear, like Sunwell gear or alike? Shouldn't we get a set of gear around T6 content but not as good as top-end gear to calculate it more accuratly? I mean, wouldn't accounting the AEP for T6 helm or Forest Prowler be more accurate then using Cursed stats? Yo - Not sure if it's a issue, but does your sim consider overlapping CDs? Like, when SS and shock get's CD at the same second, does your sim account for the GCD it has to wait before using the second skill? Even if it does or does not account for it, i don't know if would make any real difference in the end result of DPS or AEP calculation, but that's something that just happened to me, so pointing it out... Malan again^^ - Btw, not quite the main point in here, but my guild consistently raids with 2 enhancement shammies, so i'm almost all the time at a hunter/hunter/spriest/drood/me group. If you guys need data or whatever at setups like this as i saw people asking about... | |||||||||||
| #6132 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Bluhd Wuhlf |
Daler - If I could go back in time I would. I figured with my guilds raid needs and setup, I would easily get a weapon before other gear. Unfortunately, zero of the offhand 2.6 speed weapons have dropped for me .... Currently working on arena points for the merciless axe. My point to Birr was more that temporarily a epic dagger from kara w/ flametongue is worth grabbing if nothing better has come along.
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| #6133 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Binkenstein |
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As such, if we use AEP values for T6 best-in-slot gear, we have the values we want to select upgrades on until we get up to that point. This means there will be another set of AEP values for Sunwell gear once it is released. The second Enhancement shaman can go into a group like that, or the MT group. Either would be a decent use, although the AP buff does not affect RAP. | |||||||||||
| #6134 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | testthewest |
T5 4er bonus worth it?
Hi,
I currently have equipped: Ranger-General's Chestguard and Shoulderpads of the Stranger I ask myself if it would be worth it to chance those for T5 Shoulders and Chest. Both are individually worse than the stuff I have equipped now, but wouzld unlock the 4set bonus (5% more to flurry). Is it worth the dmg-stat loss? | |||||||||||
| #6135 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Bragor |
Somebody start baning people please seeing that nobody from the new comers is reading the first post.
P.S. Nice not even an armory link to see how your stat weights are calculated. | |||||||||||
| #6136 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Rob |
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At the least, you'll need to keep Shoulderpads around for after your break the 4-set bonus. | |||||||||||
| #6137 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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PvP gear is a ridiculous cakewalk grind, especially if you don't get all hung up about "winning." You should not, however, waste your honor on S1 armor with intent to use it in PvE. First upgrade your weapons, then get the Vindicator pendant and ring even if they don't seem like substantial upgrades -- these are both better than anything in T4, you'll keep them for a long time. Drinking the right pots and eating the right food is easily worth an extra ~40 dps at any gear level. Enchant EVERYTHING with the best enchants. Use big boy gems, not vendor crap -- Fel Leather gear outperforms a lot of epics with the right gems. Never been lucky at drops, myself -- I'm decked out in mostly craftables, PvP gear, badge and rep rewards. Last night I put out 1065 dps on the Bear boss in ZA. | |||||||||||
| #6138 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Wolflord |
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| #6139 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Elaxion |
+ Weapon Damage and Ring Enchants for Shaman
Now this one might sound stupid but i really have no idea and i havent found a post on it, would 4+ weapon damage or 4+ all stats be a significant bonus for a enhancement shaman. i have a 2 trinkets, one from Kara Romulo's poison and Crystalforged Trinket from Reverd Ogrila Again with the + Weapon Damage. is There anyone that can lead me through this? i know Enhance Shammys need a little bit of everything but im not sure how this + damage adds up Compaired to other stats like + hit.
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| #6140 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | shdrex21 |
Dont know if people have suggested or tought of this but a friend of mine (Sengiratolom) and i have found a interesting way to twist the Totem of the Astral Winds and the Stonebreaker's Totem to attempt improve dps by an certain amount.
As totems can now be switched in combat using the following macros to A) Equip the Stonebreaker's Totem whenever the shaman shocks. And B) After the shock clicking on the Stormstrike macro to equip the Astral Winds totem. As the Stonebreaker Totem's buff doesnt dissipate when the totem is changed which could give and DPS increase. Stormstrike Macro: #showtooltip #show Stormstrike /equip Totem of the Astral Winds /cast Stormstrike Earth Shock Macro: #showtooltip #show Earth Shock /equip Stonebreaker's Totem /cast Earth Shock Flame Shock Macro: #showtooltip #show Flame Shock /equip Stonebreaker's Totem /cast Flame Shock Frost Shock Macro: #showtooltip #show Earth Shock /equip Stonebreaker's Totem /cast Frost Shock We hope this information will be useful. Last edited by shdrex21 : 01/09/08 at 11:21 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6141 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Phrentic |
I tested it 3 weeks ago on live-server. Switching a totem will RESET your swing-timer. Due to the slow weapons u will lose too much white dmg and maybe WF-proccs by switching your totem to get 80 bonus ap on WF. And I tested it with a moonkin druid. It worked very well, but if you cancel the cast, the idol will be switched and the GCD will be triggered and you cant cast anything for 1.5 seconds which may sometimes result in a dps decrease.
I cant belive, that 4 pieces T5 bonus will out perform any non-set epics dropped in SSC/TK. Raid-buffed and potted my dps reaches 1100. The white dmg of this is around 39-42%. Thats about 450 dps. The set bouns is not 5% haste - it´s 5% more haste from flurry. So it will push your white dmg, which is allready pushed from flurry by 30% by additional 5%. So 450 Dps without 4 pieces bouns will result in (450 / 130) * 135 = 467.30 dps with 4 p set bouns. Wearing non-set epic will out perform the 4 pieces bonus of about 17 dps in my opinion. Excuse my english - I´m german ;-) Last edited by Phrentic : 01/09/08 at 11:37 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6142 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Binkenstein |
Welcome to Extra-GCD use.
See the last page or two on why having an /equip line prior to a /cast line is bad (Hint: it triggers something). | |||||||||||
| #6143 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Malan |
We've been running 2 enhance shaman a lot lately too for some reason, putting one on the MT group is a great place for the 2nd one, the threat window that opens up is a huge boost for the entire raid.
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| #6144 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Wolflord |
5% haste is 5% haste, regardless of whether its from flurry, or from haste rating. Assuming roughly 80% uptime on flurry, and valuing haste rating at about 1.7AEP I see the set bonus as worth about 107 AEP (5 * 80% * 15.7 * 1.7). Now for a worste case scenario we can compare Head/Shoulder/Hands/Legs.
Obviously your AEP will be slightly different, but I value Crit at 1.8, and Hit/Haste at 1.7, with Expertise about 3.1. In both cases the Cataclysm helm will occupy the head slot, so we're only compating Shoulder/Hands/Legs. Stranger/Searing Grip/Skulkers are my choice of offset loot for those three slots. Tier5: Shoulder- 141 Hands- 160 Legs- 200 Total:: 501 Offset: Shoulder- 195 Hands- 180 Legs- 221 Total:: 596 So the offset items are worth 95 more AEP, 12AEP less than the tier5 four-piece bonus. The shoulders are the only really really weak item, and if you were considering Head/Chest/Hands/Legs (tier5 v bloodsea) then the Cataclysm set is even better. | |||||||||||
| #6145 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | panny |
My old guild used to use a Feral Druid MT (seminarca on these forums) with an Enhancement Shaman and Warrior in his group. We did a VR where he held aggro from something like the third knockback to the last.
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| #6146 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Pitbuller |
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Ogrila trinket isn't worth much for slow weapons. Also Romulo's inst right trinket choice for us. Get badge trinket and hourglass at BM. You can calculate ep for +damage: [(+X damage / mh weapon speed) + (X damage / oh weapon speed)] * 8.48 * 0.85 (mentall quickness inflation multiplier) Last edited by Pitbuller : 01/10/08 at 6:07 AM. | |||||||||||
| #6147 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | testthewest |
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Maybe I'm still blind from the last rogue, but does the first post mention the worth of T5 4setbonus somewhere? I couldn't find it. Big thanks to Wolflord! I use the statsweightening for T5 level equip. Thats 2 for crit, 1,4 for hit and 1,48 for haste. I think we are done with SSC and we will only kill Kael a few more time before we move on. So I guess the Chest is the only set-item I may have a shot at- Last edited by testthewest : 01/10/08 at 8:04 AM. | |||||||||||
| #6148 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Vohbo |
Holding aggro on Void Reaver has a lot more to do with how much of the knockbacks do not affect you than by raw TPS output. On several occasions I have not had a knockback until below 20 % after which it of course switched immediately.
Having an enhancement shaman in the main tank group provides only a small bonus to threat over having a resto shaman there. | |||||||||||
| #6149 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Ankha |
Just a thought
with you all knowing alot more than me, I need some help. Im swinging two fist of Reckoning at the moment. When I get my first Merciless cleaver, should I hold it in my off hand or my main hand for more DPS? I was thinking MH but I know the pesky OH is a source for grief.
[Edit] After comparing it seems a larger benefit to start with the main hand. Leme know if im wrong. Last edited by Ankha : 01/10/08 at 1:21 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6150 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Sebudai |
Main Hand. Putting it in your Off Hand would result in a smaller damage increase because the OH deals half damage while dual wielding.
I assume you're asking this question because you're worried about the difference in weapon speeds between Fist of Reckoning and Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver effecting your damage in a negative way if you put the wrong weapon in your MH. As long as both weapons are reasonably slow, a difference in speed between the MH and OF doesn't really matter, regardless of which one is faster or slower. Just put your best weapon in your MH. Last edited by Sebudai : 01/10/08 at 9:18 AM. | |||||||||||
| #6151 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | • Toots Hepcat |
Malan -- set bonuses aren't random pieces, they're the baseline gear for each raiding tier. I think they're pretty important.
T5 has been valued elsewhere in this thread...basically, the bonus is worth is 5 * 15.8 * (flurry uptime percentage/100) * your haste EP value. So with 75% uptime and a haste EP of 1.48, four pieces is worth an extra 87 EP. So: 2 piece T4: +26.4 EP (plus the benefit of +12 STR to your party, ask them) 4 piece T5: 79 * (uptime/100) * haste rating EP 4 piece T6: 70 EP 4 piece PVP: 47.4 * haste rating EP No other set bonus has any EP weight. PVP bonus explained: Bonus offers an additional swing with each hand every 90s. With 2.6s weapons, you would make 34.6 swings with each every 90s. It would take 3% haste to increase this to 35.6 swings. So way I see it, this bonus has the same effect as 3% haste would have...though it is obviously not a haste effect. | |||||||||||
| #6152 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ◊ Malan |
I didn't say they were random, I said I had no interest in it. Same reason that I haven't listed every single talent in the Enhancement tree and explained what it is and what it does, and here's all the totems and what they do... I don't think its necessary and I think all the tools are laid out that make it understandable how to figure most things out.
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| #6153 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Pitbuller |
I calculate 4-set PVP bonus with YO's sim.
1. Calcualte dps with earth shaker. 1. Calculate dps without it. 3. dps(w - w/o) / dps value of 1 ap. Set bonus worth 58.6ep with base stats. | |||||||||||
| #6154 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Gehenna |
Agree
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Assuming you've got 2 warriors in there, he is getting battle shout just like the enhance shaman in the rogue group, so his damage is not subject to much change. In addition, his buffs will increase tank TPS. Many high end guilds such as Blood Legion FSB and Drow run 2 melee groups. Tank Group: Prot Warrior Prot Warrior Feral Druid Enhance Shaman Rogue Melee DPS Group: Rogue Rogue Feral Druid MS warrior Enhance Shaman | |||||||||||
| #6155 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | T.K. |
My tank's group is not the best place for the second enhance shamy at my raid setup.
Our tanks TPS are normally around 1000-1400 depending fights, so we rarelly have threat issues. We normally raid with salv and that along with classes agro dumb/reduced agro skills make for it. We raid with BM hunter along with the other hunter, drood and spriest and me in the group, and the hunters DPS is a big chunk of our DPS, so that's why the group setup is made to improve their DPS so much. | |||||||||||
| #6156 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | pun650 |
wtb definite answer on weapon enchants.
I'll admit I'm far too lazy to go through this entire site to find info, and the search function on this site does NOT help at all. 5/6 3/4 enhancement shaman, top dpser for this guild, just hit 1850, buying weapons soon....wants to know what enchants. | |||||||||||
| #6157 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Omaris |
weapon enchants
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| #6158 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Capital |
First page, if you want to know which weapon enchant is best for you, go run the numbers through yo's sim.
Edit: Too slow ;< | |||||||||||
| #6159 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Karok(EU) |
Would it perhaps be possible to get the stats (ap/crit/hit/haste/expertise/ArP etc) noted down that sebudai used to get the results posted on the front page?
If he allready had some expertise any subsequent expertise would be more valuable to people who have none yet. If he had more ArP his ArP value would also be higher compared to people that have none etc. Or maybe just a link to his post: http://elitistjerks.com/584821-post5816.html Last edited by Karok(EU) : 01/10/08 at 8:20 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6160 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | benvegas | ||||||||||||
| #6161 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Pitbuller |
"Evidence suggests that Mongoose and Executioner have nearly the same uptime and PPM, around 40-45%. Dual Executioner may have as high as 70-75% uptime, but again, the effect does not stack."
I think these are very optimist values. I done some test with Yo's sim. Even with hit cap + 50% crit: flyrry uptime 92% you can get only 40% uptime to single exe or 64% to dual exe. Even with expertice cap + hit cap + 94% flurry uptime you can get only 42% and 65% uptimes. Last edited by Pitbuller : 01/10/08 at 9:23 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6162 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Joy |
![]() You also don't include kings into the STR value, and you have AGI as valuable as STR which is near impossible unless you have massive AP and minute crit. FYI these are the values I come up with for my gear (based on YO's 100k hours) Loot Rank WTB SSC >_< A question or my own: Given that 3 of our Priests have the Dagger off Illidan it occurred to me that it might be worth consideration, however when I plug it in as an offhand (its 106 dps 1.9speed) I get a higher DPS with WF/WF than WF/FT - is this correct? Also a solid 100dps loss on double syphons. Last edited by Joy : 01/10/08 at 11:01 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6163 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | panny |
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| #6164 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Ston |
the dagger has a very similar damage range to the S1 Gladiator weapons, just a faster speed. So it's not really that surprising that it's outperforming FT since FT bases its damage on weapon speed, not weapon DPS. The only thing that's probably happening is it's clipping the MH WF procs.
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| #6165 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | testthewest |
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Maybe it's the best to leave this topic simply in the discussion part, right here. I never wanted it to be included, but I needed to defend myself vs people that told me, I wasn't reading before asking. | |||||||||||
| #6166 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Illundai |
I've been raiding 2 lockouts with Double Executioner now and I have to say it seems to absolutely have no significant difference from Mongoose/Executioner. Unfortunatly WWS is a bit borked to track uptime with it, so you're gonna have to believe the sim.
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| #6167 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ◊ Rob |
![]() I'd also set meta = 50, since RED is worth at least that much. | |||||||||||
| #6168 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Pitbuller |
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Mong/mong: 1756dps Exe/mong: 1755dps Mong/exe: 1756dps Exe/exe: 1746dps You have so high level gear that exe is par with mongoose. But becouse its not stack double exe is just waste of potetial. | |||||||||||
| #6169 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Ilmatar |
That was the conclusion I came to, Pitbuller. I think that it's well worth having one weapon be Executioner (past certain EP numbers, see previous posts on this), as for which one, I don't think it matters because if the hit which procs windfury also procs another effect (Seen it with DST and Mongoose etc) than the buff is applied before the windfury strikes take place.
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| #6170 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Stigmata |
Hi guys, Haven't been around since early November, good to see your still grinding away with the theory crafting.
I haven't logged onto my shaman or even spent the talent points from the 2.3 patch reset, but I'm still interested in how things are going. My question is to do with expertise rating and what high end geared shaman are using nowadays, as I haven't been keeping up with this thread I am not sure who is still playing and who isn't. So how much in general do people use and can someone link me the armory of a current gear capped player(s) who are still around please. | |||||||||||
| #6171 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Bragor |
To my ever lasting demise I can't got a hold of one viable expertise rated item currently (Unless you can count the neck piece from Badges but I ain't gonna touch one by a ten foot pole
).I am also trying out Execuitoner (After forking out the cash for it) in PVE content and will provide what numbers I can parse. <== Check his armory for gear and talents ^_^ | |||||||||||
| #6172 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Nemaa |
Hello Stigmata!
My gear is almost complete, missing a [Choker of Endless Nightmares], a [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] and a [Madness of the Betrayer] instead of [Berserker's Call]. I don't feel like grinding two S3 weapons because the upgrade would be minimal (like +10-15 dps according to Yo's sim) and I don't really find PvP fun as an enhancement shaman. Expertise is really good, the [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is still the top belt. Also [Grips of Damnation] is only a little bit better than [Gloves of the Searing Grip] (has 18 expertise rating, tooltip shows pre-2.3 values). These are my preferences, I'm waiting for 2.4 to see the additional changes and available upgrades. | |||||||||||
| #6173 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Illundai |
I'm just missing Illidan ring and a Madness really. The only expertise item I feel is worth wearing is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Sadly none of our gear has any Expertise on it, but still has mp5!
P.S: I do have [Bow-stitched Leggings] & [Midnight Chestguard] for those who are going to nitpick. I just prefer to look cool! | |||||||||||
| #6174 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | T.K. |
Well, we're only up to Reliquary of Souls and luck haven't been on my side till here, but i got a couple decent stuff as people around.
At one of our "attune the new recruits" runs, i got a vashj belt. Shame on me that the shoulder AND the gloves with expertise dropped and i didn't grab them. My armory is down at the moment, although there's much better ekipped enhances around i guess. But if any interest arises i'm Ryla in US WoW. | |||||||||||
| #6175 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Vohbo |
I don't think any of the other expertise items is worth wearing if you have access to T6 equivalent gear no, but at the lower end they are pretty easy to get and provide a significant boost in your dps. I'm still wearing my [Clefthoof Hide Leggings] and am pretty pleased with how few dodges I get.
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| # | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | automatica |
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| #6202 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ChaguraED |
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| #6203 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | • Toots Hepcat |
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Helm and gloves are most likely the first pieces you'll pick up to complete the bonus. Shoulders and Gloves are your best bets if you're only keeping 2 pieces. | |||||||||||
| #6204 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | lizard |
alrite so im veryvery sorry if the following question has been asked already but i didnt have the patience to search through the entire thread. my question is the following:
if your WF is on CD and the SS CD runs out, how many seconds of the WF CD are worth waiting with SS to give it a chance to proc WF? it should be theorycraftable and as i see it, the number hardly depends on my gear level at all. | |||||||||||
| #6205 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Rhagok |
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| #6206 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Jumbotron |
I suppose I have a terribly noobish question, but I could really use some help.
I'm starting to accumulate some T5-level gear and Yo's calculator is valuing hit rating at 1.98 EP, yet according to this thread and my current understanding of enhancement shaman, hit rating should be a less valuable stat. Should I continue to gear and gem according to Yo's calculator or is something amiss? My current unbuffed stats are 1448ap, 27.22% crit, 8 expertise(not rating), 138 hit rating, 30 haste rating and 168 armor penetration. | |||||||||||
| #6207 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ◊ Malan |
Nothing is amiss. All that is being said is "don't go out of your way to get +Hit." Ever seen a rogue get a new item? He has to juggle gems and old gear around to make room for it to make sure he's not dropping too much +Hit. We're saying that you don't need to worry about that. Don't gem for it, don't go replacing items that have less AP/Crit but have more Hit. Its still valuable, its just not a priority.
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| #6208 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Mbuzi |
I believe you have to manually add in your hit from talents to your paperdoll stats. So if your paper doll reads 7%, add 9% to that if specced for it. That is how I read the following from Yo's FAQ.
Q: What stats do I need to input? A: Stats from your paperdoll when out of raid buffs. That is stats from gear + "naked" stats + stats from talents. Use buffs page to select your buffs. The exception is Blessing of Kings (if you expect it) - you need both to input your paperdoll stats increased by 10% and turn BoK "on" on buffs tab. If some buffs are missing - input them directly to stats. Boss armor - reduced by all expected debuffs. | |||||||||||
| #6209 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Blargenheim |
Quick question here, I'll make it easy and short. Our current group composition is as follows, Fury Warrior, Feral(Tank) Druid, Mutilate Rogue, the Enh Shammy, and myself (Hunter, spec may vary.) WF or GoA?
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| #6210 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Illundai |
Is getting a decent group an option? If not, twist totems :P.
On a serious note, I'd drop WF I think. Last edited by Illundai : 01/14/08 at 9:38 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6211 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | iah |
Mut gets nothing from it....only the warrior would....GoA a better choice
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| #6212 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | LazyJoe |
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| #6213 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Blazingwater |
A question here for gear:
I just recently got [Fool's Bane] from KZ the other night, and I already have [Gladiator's Pummeler] and I need to know which is a better combo; Bane/S1 or S1/Bane. I see that the S1 weapon has more dps, but Bane has the higher top damage. Any suggestions? I'm running with around 1100Ap and 25% crit. Oh, and before you club me over the head, know that the simulator's aren't working for me. | |||||||||||
| #6214 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | seminarca |
Top end just means you get the occassional big hit, always consider the average hit before you look at top end. Put the one with higher average hit in the mainhand, in this case it's Pummeler (237 average hit) mainhand and Bane (227.5 average hit) offhand.
More than for not running the sim, you deserve a /bonk for bringing up an age old Rogue myth. | |||||||||||
| #6215 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ◊ Malan |
If the feral is main tanking I'd go with GoA but that is a frigging horrible group setup and you really ought to get that changed.
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| #6216 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Illundai |
Yeah, but Mutilate is a shit spec anyhow. Why buff mediocre specs when you can buff one much superior one, which'll probably end up in more dps anyway?
Edit: If Mutilate really ends up closer than it used to do, I stand corrected - I only read the first few pages on most Rogue threads and there the conclusion was that it was ~200 dps less than Combat Daggers. By the way, personally I'd twist my ass off in a group like that, due to it's uncommon nature - get the best of both worlds T_T. Last edited by Illundai : 01/15/08 at 8:08 AM. | |||||||||||
| #6217 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | panny |
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I tanked heroic SV the other week but forgot to post my report in here. Anyway, I did it with using mostly PvP gear. In Vindicator's PvP gear, 3 pieces of Vengeful Gladiator's and a Merciless Gladiator's Shield Wall, I have 12.2k health and 11k armour. Adding in a food buff and Kings, I have 13.3k health and am crit immune from resilence. Since I was constantly being hit, Water Shield meant that I had infinite mana and so instead of using Shamanistic Rage for regen, it was purely a defensive measure. Party makeup was: Elemental Shaman, Fire Mage, Fury Warrior and a Holy Paladin as a healer. The Elemental Shaman was undergeared and the Fury Warrior was offhanding a skinning dagger because he hadn't levelled the right skill for his new weapon. The rest of us are T5 geared. An Enhancement Shaman that wants to tank needs a Paladin because we get Parry through Spirit Weapons, which comes attached with threat reduction. Without Salvation on your DPS, they'll have to hold back alot, and I thought 5% Parry was too valuable to give up for survivability. My healer never had to pot, so I actually think it'd be better without it Spirit Weapons, though my Fire Mage said he was deliberately being difficult and the Shadow Priest was PvP specced with no threat reduction talents. I frequently forgot to wait for Shamanistic Rage to cooldown before tacking rough pulls and bosses, but it seemed to work out fine. Spec used was 0/44/17 with a PvP slant (Guardian Totems over Enhancing Totems) but your average raiding spec should be fine anyway. The other noteable choice talent might be Shield Spec over Ancestral Knowledge, which I usually go for anyway, since the mana gains from AK are minimal. My pull technique was to Chain Lightning and run over an Earthbind, letting me Chain Lightning again before closing in for melee, with spare Frost Shocks on loose mobs to hold them over heal aggro. This was enough to hold aggro most of the time, though Earthbind helped give me time to recover if I did lose it. AoE pulls were also a problem threat-wise, though no one died. I used Windfury Weapon on a Merciless Gladiator's weapon with Mongoose (for the dodge). The toughest pulls were the Bog Overlords, which required the Elemental Shaman to help heal me, and for some of the heavier pulls, we had the Fury Warrior tank one mob, but since another class with Humanoid CC would've made this unnesscary, I didn't consider this to invalidate the experiment. :P The first boss (Hydromancer), was a bit tough at first due to the fact we had no banish, and the Elementals are immune to the only threat heavy attack we have, Frost Shock. We ended up having the Fury offtank one Elemental (simulating a banish) while I focused on the other, and kept Frost Shocking Hydromancer to hold her over healing threat. We killed my Elemental, then the Warrior's, then the boss. Engineer and Warlord were pretty easy, though I had to help DPS water tanks. Last edited by panny : 01/14/08 at 11:37 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6218 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | frozndevl |
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Panny, Other than the shield and the minor spec change did you modify any of your gear to max out hp and defense, or were your stats still a result of maximum dps as explained in the thread? Edit: My bad, I was reading off of the item link which still says main hand. Goes to show what happens if you trust the interweb. Last edited by frozndevl : 01/15/08 at 10:33 AM. | |||||||||||
| #6219 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | • Sebudai |
They changed Fool's Bane to One-Hand semi-recently.
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| #6220 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | seminarca |
It's not, it was changed to One Hand in a recent patch.
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| #6221 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | panny |
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| #6222 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Yo! |
+ Added "wait with SS if less than xxx seconds are left of WF cooldown" option. While it shows that it is worth to wait even full 3 seconds before striking with SS, remember that you may miss or be forced to postpone some other abilities due to global cooldown, though you may be able to perform them while waiting with SS. I guess you'll need to substract 1-2 shocks per 2 minutes to simulate that but not sure about it
+ Corrected Grace of Air buff to 88 agi, not 97 like SoE Correct. | |||||||||||
| #6223 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ◊ Malan |
Yo, one thing we've been talking about in the resto/elemental subspec thread is the need for the sim to take different values of the elemental/resto talent points, so that someone could take 3% extra shock dmg for example. Think that's workable? Maybe some input boxes where they fill in their talents?
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| #6224 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | masso |
hi, ive gotten 4/5 of the season 3 enhance gear now. and the stats there are pritty nice, but i was just wondering since my guild does TK/SSC, is the gear there better then season3 or aint it that big difference?
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| #6225 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Nemaa |
lizard:
As far as I know (and as Yo comfirmed it in his previous post) it is worth to wait even full 3 seconds before striking with SS. | |||||||||||
| #6226 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Nemaa |
lizard:
As far as I know (and as Yo comfirmed it in his previous post) it is worth to wait even full 3 seconds before striking with SS. | |||||||||||
| #6227 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | masso |
could anyone just tell me if i should stick to my season 3 enhance gear or get the gear from TK/SSC? plx plx
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| #6228 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Pitbuller |
Masso read first page. Then use loot rank. Or you can even run YO's sim for your own stat values. Or if you wanna be real lazy use MAXdps.
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| #6229 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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I took the default stats, BUT added 20 shocks/2 minutes. Wait 0s: 1147 Wait 1s: 1155 Wait 2s: 1160 Wait 3s: 1161 So hey, best case scenario you get 1.2% additional DPS by waiting your stormstrikes. However, let's consider if you missed a SINGLE shock as a result of it: Wait 3s, 19 shocks/minute: 1150. You just lost most of your benefit. One of the best things a shaman can do to optimize his DPS post-MQ is to hit shocks on the cooldown. If you're able to do this while also sleeping SS when you can do so without affecting your WF cycle, well you're in a hard to simulate but probably best-case mode. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/15/08 at 1:13 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6230 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | frozndevl |
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| #6231 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Durigen |
Well, I think a Resto-Shaman would be able to tank better than Enhancement (assume the Enhancer didn't take Anticipation). Thanks to Earth Shield and a physical Shield your survivability would be much higher (not to mention there's lots of very good healing mail, as opposed to mostly DPS leather). The biggest problem would be aggro. WF on your weapon, Frost Shock every chance you get... I would still think it's a bad idea unless your team is overgeared and your tanking the little things. Like some of the random little guys near the Philanthropists.
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| #6232 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | drats |
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| #6233 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Binkenstein |
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| #6234 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Unaz |
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Nice post, I hadn't done the math on this myself, but have been timing my SS outside the cooldown for a while now. Often at the cost of a perfect shock rotation. I'm going to try stormstriking every cooldown unless I just shocked for a bit and see if it's any noticeable improvement. Should be easier to maintain at least. | |||||||||||
| #6235 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | panny |
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| #6236 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Mox |
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But let's be honest, tanking should be the last thing a shaman should do.. we don't want blizzard to get the idea people actually want these useless talents so they never change them. | |||||||||||
| #6237 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Blargenheim |
We only run Kara atm, so it's not as bad as one would think. I would prefer the rogue to be combat swords, but he likes his daggers. Basically since Kara is only a 10 man we compile the best synergized groups possible, there arent any other better options. Other grp is spriest, 2 pallies, lock and the other tank (warrior). Had to put the warrior somewhere and the feral druid just got more benefit from, and benfitted more to, the melee group.
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| #6238 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Rhut |
Wasn't in the main post and I would prefer not to scroll thru 250 pages of text to find it...
Is there an AEP value agreed upon for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond? Or is this able to be calculated? I'm open to the fact that it's crit based and the value can vary, I just want to be able to figure it out. | |||||||||||
| #6239 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Skiace |
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Last edited by Skiace : 01/16/08 at 3:09 AM. | |||||||||||
| #6240 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Rob |
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Run Yo's with RED proc disabled. Note DPS. Estimate AP you must add to make low DPS equal high DPS. Run Yo's with AP added and proc disabled. Refine estimate and repeat. (Commonly agreed upon value is 50-80 AP, I believe that the low number counts just the proc and the high number counts the agility as well.) | |||||||||||
| #6241 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Rhut |
Thanks. I was debating on using a [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] instead of my cyclone helm but didn't want to drop the meta.
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| #6242 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Yo! |
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1) Run sim with RED proc "on". Note DPS1. 2) Run sim with RED proc "off". Note DPS2. 3) EP of RED proc for person without RED = (DPS1-DPS2)/(DPS value of 1 EP from second sim run) Add your EP value for agi on RED to get item's tota EP scorel. ![]()
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| #6243 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Pitbuller |
RED ep value go down a bit becouse you have to use two blue gems. If there isnt hot socket bonus its -22ep for epic gems and -17.6 for normal gems.
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| #6244 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Rhut |
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Items that come to mind... [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] [Belt of the Black Eagle] [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] [Midnight Chestguard] then there's always these... [Bow-stitched Leggings] Personally I prefer to meet socket bonuses as long as it's crit-agi/str-ap/hit. I know some shamans that socket for all +Str and have maybe 30-50 ap more than me, but they've also got 3% less crit than I do. I like having a balance of stats. Last edited by Rhut : 01/16/08 at 7:39 AM. | |||||||||||
| #6245 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Pitbuller |
Those all items still yield very minor ep loss without str gems.
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| #6246 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Rhut |
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you agreeing with me? Are you saying that I wouldn't lose much EP if I kept the socket bonuses in those items? If so, then I believe we're in agreement. If not, to each his own I guess. Like I said earlier, I like balancing my stats.
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| #6247 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | SFACER |
OK, I think I'm mildly retarded, because I can't work this out and I've read everything including the front pages thoroughly.
I'm an Orc, I have a [Netherbane] and a [Rising Tide] both mongoosed. The other night a [Syphon of the Nathrezim] dropped, and because I have a few T4 armour pieces I didn't want to put myself rock bottom of dkp behind all the Hunters and rogues and wait an enternity to upgrade armour and ,therefore , passed on it. I also explained I'd lose my Orc racial on the [Netherbane], bit of a cop out really. So, have any Orc's compared these 2 weapons, what is the overall dps difference. Simulators are blocked for at work, but I guess the proc makes it impossible to measure, but I'd like some opinion/input please. It's playing on my mind that maybe I should have just grabbed it, have I passed on a minimal or major dps upgrade? | |||||||||||
| #6248 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Sebudai |
Pretty sure Netherbane is better than Syphon for orcs by a decent margin. The orc racial is really good, so that wasn't a cop out. Expertise blows every other stat out of the water once you're in T6 quality gear(can see its ridiculous EP value based off of my gear on the first page.) I'd have used 2x Rising Tide if I could have back when there weren't S3 axes. It's easy to figure out which is better using the simulator though, so I'd just run that when you're not at work.
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| #6249 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | panny |
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| #6250 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Sengiratolom |
sorry if this asked before.
i was wondering if it was possible to make a macro that resets when either of these criteria are met: target switching, out of combat, you press shift together with your macro hotkey and that build into #showtooltip #show Stormstrike /atack /castsequence reset=10 Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Earth Shock thanks alot | |||||||||||
| #6326 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Malan |
This is still being worked out and hotly debated in the other thread.
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| #6327 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | qualia |
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| #6328 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Sebudai |
I always swap out the feral druid for Bloodlust. Or if the group has 3 rogues instead of 2 rogues and a druid I'll swap myself out. I don't like swapping our warrior out because it removes Battle Shout(at least temporarily.) As far as I know Bloodlust is still great for an arms warrior. It affects the cast time of Slam and reduces the global cooldown.
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| #6329 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Malan | ||||||||||||
| #6330 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Atren |
As far as i know it does reduce global cooldown, but normal haste items do not affect it.
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| #6331 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Wraithlin |
No, no, NO!
It has been proven, and it is a simple test, that bloodlust does not change the GCD. | |||||||||||
| #6332 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Galine |
Hey, I've been following the topic pretty close, and was starting to think on how to improve my gear. The only thing I'm hesitant on is giving up my pure str stats for gear with higher AP - since, in raids and almost every group I am in, I have kings and salvation (we have a hell of a lot of paladins). Once I get my Vinidicator's neck with a str/crit gem, I'll be gemming up my T4 shoulders with an additional 8str gem. Also as was mentioned earlier, the T4 str bonus to the totem makes a huge difference with me, and I find that pretty valuable. What are your opinions on this and should I worry that much about the T4 bonus, or just go with the rogue badge rewards (other than the boots as I'm a pretty big fashion whore and they look really dumb on females).
Edit: Spelling... these keyboards at work suck, lol. Edit 2: Forgot to mention, we're currently stuck at a cleared Kara, and can clear the first chest in ZA, with the 4 avatars down, as well as High King Maulgar... so, that's pretty much where my gear choices generally fall in to place. Last edited by Galine : 01/20/08 at 2:43 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6333 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Binkenstein | ||||||||||||
| #6334 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | rava |
Really? Admittedly I haven't been keeping up much on the thread but I can recall multiple discussions of the T4 2 piece and it's value within the last week. I'm glad that you found the thread and are trying to improve your character, but please take some time to use the "search this thread" function in the top right hand corner so the same question doesn't get asked for the thousandth time. If anything is unclear after that I'd be happy to help and answer you to the best of my ability.
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| #6335 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | Galine |
Edit: Yeah, I did find something, more or less gear suggestions for replacements and values for the set bonus which I wasn't exactly aiming for. The T4 set bonus wasn't really the main factor I was trying to address, more along the lines of the potential gain from kings. Guess I'll have to try the simulator later to see how much potential loss/gain I get from swapping out my other Str gear for AP pieces... too bad the site can't be proxied to at work. Math is really not my friend, at all... heh.
I'll post again if I'm confused, haha... thanks =) Last edited by Galine : 01/20/08 at 6:17 PM. Reason: I'm dumb. | |||||||||||
| #6336 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Itchen |
Odd AEP numbers
My alt is an Enhancement Shaman and I am currently working on making him raid worthy on the off chance we end up needing another. I have been following this thread since before I even rolled him. My gear is middle of the road. Some Kara pieces, Ebon Netherscale Breastplate, Swiftstrike Shoulders and several instance blues. I was using Yo's simulator to try obtain my current AEP values. I got some very unexpected results based on what I was expecting from the first post.
I'll include an armory link for reference. I know I can get better DPS by switching some +4 Str +6 Stam gems out, and that I need to get an enchant on my off-hand. Kaltad | |||||||||||
| #6337 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Wolflord |
That makes sense, your AP is still pretty low. The low AEP is really just highly rating AP/str. Generally AP is universally useful and its only the difference between hit/crit/haste that really determines gear choices. You really dont find crit/hit becoming highly rated until over 1600 base AP.
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| #6338 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Itchen |
Thank you for the quick reply. That makes sense. I just thought it was a little odd considering the entry level AEP's given on the front page. Now that I think about it, a lot of the shamans (starting Kara) I've been seeing around have AP equivalent to mine but with much lower crit and hit ratings. So the simulator is basically telling me that crit/Agi is becoming much less valuable as I approach 100% UR uptime and 75% flurried hits.
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| #6339 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
The added value of crit from proc uptimes is less than the value of the dps from more critical strikes. It's not going to
cause a major fall-off in the value of any one stat. It all comes down to buffs -- most of our simulations include BS and BoM, which together add 667 AP. You, in turn, have added 3.52% crit that most simulations don't factor in. More crit and less AP will devalue crit and value AP, which is exactly what you see. People tend to ignore buffs when they list their simulation values, and I wish they'd stop it. Buffs change EP values dramatically. Your stats aren't that strange, and if this shaman is for farming or PUGs you've actually got the right EP numbers in front of you. | |||||||||||
| #6340 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Tuili |
Fast FT dagger OH
Yeah like we haven't discussed this before...
I use the gladiator 2.60 1h mace (~91dps) as main hand with windfury and until I get another one for my off-hand I'm using a 1.8 ~80dps dagger with flametongue. Now, what if I went for the 1.4 ~91dps dagger instead? The WF proc is 20% which means that after the 3 sec CD I will get a WF effect every five hits. Here's the thing: with 2.6 speed I will only "waste" one hit during the CD and that will make an average of 6 hits per proc. I've used recount (ace2 addon) and found that my average WF proc is around 1300 dmg (don't laugh^^) Now six hits with flurry = 6x1.82 sec = 10,92 sec average per WF proc which means WF will add 1300/10,92 = 119 dps My flametongue off-hand adds roughly 80 dps (recount). Total dps buff for my current WF / FT ~ 200dps If I go for WF / WF instead this will happen: After a proc I will have three hits within the CD (if MH procs it'll be OH, MH, OH) The WF proc rate when dual wielding is supposedly 36% (according to this thread) which means I will have 3 hits within the CD then an average of three hits before I get another proc. That next proc has a 50% chance of being a MH one. If it's an OH proc it'll be much lower (~700 says my recount when using the mace in OH). (1300+700) / 2 = 1000 average proc when dual wielding. This will happen every sixth hit (3 hits within CD, three on average for the proc). With flurry that's 6x0,91 = 5,46 sec. Rendering the total WF dps buff 1000/5,46 = 183 dps Because of the fact that the off-hand eats half of the procs it seems better to just use WF on the MH and always get the 100% WF effect and use FT on a fast OH instead. Reflections on this? I'm not saying this is correct, but I'd like someone to tell me exactly why WF WF is sooooo much better. | |||||||||||
| #6341 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Ilmatar |
2
Extra Hits If you could imbue your johnson with Windfury, it would boost your DPS, even if it stole both MH and OH procs. | |||||||||||
| #6342 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Dariusx |
dont forget about stormstrike - which will have much more benefit if your 2 weapons are slow.
and the better your gear the better wf will scale - ft not. | |||||||||||
| #6343 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | drats |
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-- Just out of curiosity, does the WF cooldown affect WF totem hits as well? If not, my idea is that someone could make a mod to remove MH WF during the cooldown and drop the totem, then remove the totem buff and reapply WF when the cooldown was over. Just for fun that is, I don't think it would be feasible at all in raids. | |||||||||||
| #6344 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Ilmatar |
Windfury Totem is only 1 extra hit. If it applied to the off hand it might be worthwhile, but it's been tested and it's no good (see 1st post
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| #6345 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | rava |
That isn't what he's saying. He is saying that inside of the 3 second cooldown remove WF from your weapon and drop a WF totem, then reapply WF after the cooldown is up.
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| #6346 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 Edited onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
This is an insane concept that infuriates and intrigues me.
Some things to think about - you'd have to not be GCD when WF procs. - you'd have to be within the rare window where you neither have an SS coming, a shock coming or a totem to drop in the next 3s, else you'd be reducing your damage from other areas. - you'd have to macro the "clicking off" of the totem's buff along the re-application of the standard buff. Assuming it CAN be clicked off; I've never tried. - you'd have to be able to manage these two actions and their GCDs within the confines of a 3s window. My cycle is complex enough as is, thanks. Also, fast daggers suck, mate. Just ask all the fast dagger shamans I've annihilated on the meters. Your math is flawed in a couple ways...for one, 3 hits between WF procs is not the average with dual WF. Your chance of getting WF the first hit outside of the cooldown is 36%, in one of the first two hits is 59%. Thus your "average" hits before proc outside the cooldown is going to be less than 2. For another, single WF has an outside of CD proc chance of 20%. By going WF/FT, you may actually decrease the WF dps from your main hand. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/21/08 at 6:23 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6347 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Tuili |
Ok I'm convinced. I'll just go grind those extra nine thou honor I need for the unfairly expensive off-hand (one hand) mace
Thank you for the info! | |||||||||||
| #6348 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | ♦ stabbymcgee |
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But as Ilmatar said, the totem is only 1 attack, the weapon buff is 2. More damage = better, that's the whole point of this thread, right? If the totem affected the offhand, it would still be worse than the weapon buff. | |||||||||||
| #6349 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Stopokingme | ||||||||||||
| #6350 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.2 | Kirion | ||||||||||||
| #6401 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Sebudai |
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I'm not sure why you would agree with and use the accepted EP values for things like CR, Agi, Str etc. only to arbitrarily discount the accepted EP value of hit rating. You're basically telling math to go fuck itself. | |||||||||||
| #6402 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
You're taking what I've written in the OP to an extreme, like "to the moon" extreme.
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| #6403 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Tambard |
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| #6404 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Dukanull |
I agree with Don Alejandro's over boneweave, but mainly because of the flavor text.
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| #6405 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
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I challenge you to find any place where I or Yo or Disquette or Rob or Sebudai have said that Hit rating is "a lesser stat." You say "sacrificing 17 hit isn't worth 16 EP" which is an ignorant statement. You're comparing apples and oranges. 17 would translate to well over 16 EP which makes your statement ludicrous at best and makes you look like you were too lazy to whip a calculator out. Even at the lowest value of "standardized" EP values in the OP (for entry level T4), 17 hit rating would be worth 22.78 EP. Is 22.78 > 16 EP? Yes, I think it is. | |||||||||||
| #6406 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Tambard |
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Last edited by Tambard : 01/22/08 at 3:53 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6407 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
No you're basing your BS on "wow look at my dmg meter on this 7 minute long fight" and then committing fallacies of logic. You're basing it on 2 things really - jack, and shit.
On the other hand we as a community base our valuations on a cumulative total of simulation hours that is approaching the millions of hours run, which have categorically been shown to be accurate through in game analysis, none of which you have shown. Contradict common theorycraft? I think you're a little mixed up here bud, because whats in this thread is the accepted common theorycraft. | |||||||||||
| #6408 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Mox |
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I ran the sim x5 @ 10,000 hours and got an average of: 1 AP 1.98 Crit 1.79 Hit 1.88 Haste 0.34 Armor pen 2.2 Str 1.93 Agility 3.31 Expertise Thats for mongoose/Mongoose setup (if you use Mon/exe you get different EP values for crit/agility). Although I don't know why my crit/agility values are much higher than Sebudai's, maybe buffs.. leader of pack? I Never have a feral in the dps group so could be that. | |||||||||||
| #6409 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Mox |
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If you want your theory to hold water you need to show some numbers. | |||||||||||
| #6410 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Sebudai |
Except I could post my own WWS of me undoubtedly doing more damage and since I have more hit rating I could somehow equate that to meaning hit rating is awesome. Shitty logic is shitty. Embrace the loving arms of math.
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| #6411 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
Tambard, maybe it you had more hit rating you could hit the submit button on the first try, and thus avoid multiple posts.
Most of us trust the simulator because the results are in line with what we see in game. I recently made an upgrade that decreased my critical chance by about 1% but added 30 hit rating and 20 AP. Simulator suggested it was a major upgrade, on the order of 10 dps, and that's about what I see -- an average of 10 more DPS on fights I did the previous week in a similar group. Whenever I trust the EP, I seem to do well. Whenever I aim for a particular stat, I seem to get boned. If the EP says Hit Rating is worth 1.5 AP, I trust that at the very least, it'll be close to that. Our DPS is a feedback system and what the EP tells us is that balance is more important than min-maxing. | |||||||||||
| #6412 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
We really have come full circle. First, it's "rofl why rnt u hit capped?" Now, it's "hit is worthless lol nub!" Suffice to say that if you just don't value hit at all, you *may* end up with the right items at the endgame, but you *will* get some of the wrong items along the way. (Skipping out on Skulker's Greaves is a huge mistake, for example.)
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I noticed you prefer Softstep and Fists of Mukoa, is this because you like wearing mail? The dilemma I face in choosing between these options and their leather near-equivalents is that the leather items do stack more Stamina and would probably produce more survivability in a raid environment, where IME armor is of little to no concern (and if you end up tanking something you throw a shield on until it can be taunted off of you). My guild is on Illidan at the moment, so I have seen most encounters that you have, but I don't have your level of gear to be able to say "oh, I've got plenty of stamina, no need to look for more." Last edited by Rob : 01/22/08 at 5:04 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6413 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Zealoz |
Well I am sporting an interesting Dilemma. My gear has improved greatly over the last 3 weeks with the additions of Syphon, T5 Helm, Insidious Bands, Mantle of Darkness, Nether Shadow Tunic. While my overall DPS has increased I have noticed (through WWS) an additional increase in Melee misses by nearly 5%on some encounters. And an increase in misses with SS/WF by nearly 1-2%. My damage allocation seems to be right on between Melee/Specials/Shocks. I have some WWS from early this month where I added the Syphon, Mantle of Darkness and T5 Helm. But our RL hasn't posted WWS from the last 2 weeks, probably because we have been working on Archimonde alot. But I will try to get them.
My armory is probably showing my PVP gear from last night but I run with unbuffed 1676 AP, 19.65% Hit, 28.84% Crit. And Expertise rating of I believe 25 (Orc + Belt on One-Hundred deaths) and zero haste. Any thoughts as to why my misses are increasing, but my DPS is also increasing? I replaced S1 Cleaver/S2 Hacker (Hence the FT attacks in WWS) in OH with the Syphon. And running W.E.P. in MH. Am I missing something, doing something wrong? I have tried to model after Malan, Sebudai, Yo, and Disquette. So I am a little perplexed by this indication. Is this a normal expectation that as the damage output increases as does the number of misses or potential misses? WWS | |||||||||||
| #6414 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Mox |
Unless you're in Hyjal I don't even see how this is possible ...
your damage on Rage winterchill 6.2% miss on stormstrike??? Not possible... something/someone is screwing up your logs. Last edited by Mox : 01/22/08 at 5:20 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6415 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Zealoz |
Most of the increases in miss% have come off the bosses in Hyjal. The BT Bosses that we have killed up to this point I haven't noticed that big of an increase in misses. Is the Armor rating of Hyjal Bosses that much higher?
So that is interesting. I don't maintain the logs so I have no idea what happened. | |||||||||||
| #6416 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
Armor rating does not impact miss chance.
On the other hand, "Banshee Curse" from Banshees in Hyjal trash packs sure does. | |||||||||||
| #6417 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Mox |
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Are you using 3/3 DW spec and 3/3 natures guidance in your raid dps spec? If you are your stromstrike/WF have no chance to miss at all. | |||||||||||
| #6418 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Chicken |
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| #6419 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Leonina |
Dodge + parry shows up as miss in WWS if my memory serves me right..
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| #6420 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Zealoz | ||||||||||||
| #6421 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Mox |
Ok well like previous posters pointed out (and I had forgot) WWS includes parry/dodge as "misses". So if you have those talents + that hit rating your SS/WF are not missing at all, I recommend getting an ingame meter such as swstats or recount and actually checking this for yourself if you want.
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| #6422 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
Ahem -- this is generated by one of those stats parsers that merges Dodge/Block/Parry/Resist with true Miss for a combined Miss chance.
There isn't a whole lot of data for Stormstrikes and thus you can't trust the miss rate on any single parse for it. You'd need to fight for 16 minutes to see even 100 SS swings. I have seen parses where SS never misses and others where it misses 10% of the time. It's just random numbers with a small sample set dude. Incidentally, what the HELL are you doing with Flamestrike on, man? | |||||||||||
| #6423 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | • Sebudai |
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Using Fists of Mukoa, Boneweave Girdle and Softstep Boots of Tracking gives me about an extra 30 seconds of totem twisting, which ends up mattering on encounters like Illidari Council, Mother Shahraz and Gurtogg. If I didn't totem twist it really would be impossible to run out of mana and I would definitely prefer the other options. Last edited by Sebudai : 01/22/08 at 6:40 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6424 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Poprostu |
guys plz help me ... what u think about this boots ?
Earthen Netherscale Boots - Items - World of Warcraft | |||||||||||
| #6425 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Pitbuller |
[Earthen Netherscale Boots] 61.6ep + 6agility becouse you can chooce 12agility over cat swiftness enchant. I have to say: dont waste gold.
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| #6426 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Shinanigans |
Hey guys.
Looking through the weaponry currently available for me, I am pondering what the next move to make is. I am in a guild that is 5/6 SSC and 3/4 TK and we are STRICTLY working on Vashj. That means that going into TK and getting Netherbane is kind of a lost cause at this point. I am currently wielding dual S1 Axes (both 2.6 speed obviously). I am 2 weeks away from the S2 Axe (need 600 more arena points). Once I get the S2 Axe, I plan to use it as my MH. In saying that, what is going to be my best bet for an OH until Alar drops Netherbane? Should I just stick with my S1 Axe in my OH for the time being? Thanks for your help. | |||||||||||
| #6427 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Areus |
Run the sim. Its there for a reason, so that you can answer your own questions. Do more than 1 run to see if your DPS increases or decreases with different gear setups.
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| #6428 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
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| #6429 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Darganis |
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| #6430 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Iku |
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| #6431 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Paradox |
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| #6432 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Conq[SUN] |
Leatherworking
Hi
Monster of a thread here. But I have found a lot of good useful information so far. Thanks. My question is regarding professions, which I haven't been able to find anything about. Seems the best would probably be to get blacksmithing, but don't wanna do that again. So I came up with leatherworking, which seems to be a bit useful. Was sure Dragonscale would be the specialization to get, but after looking into it I'm no longer sure. It seems Elemental is the way to go. Looking at the epic pieces you can make Primalstrike comes out a little bit better with the wrists and waist, but only a bit, so you could justify getting the Netherscale for the extra armor and int. The Primalstrike chest seems so much better that the Netherscale though, meaning it is no longer justified getting Netherscale for the extra stats. Is this conclusion right, or is there any other opinions? Edit: Made an alliance shaman on another server to play with some friends. Meaning I probably won't have access to the same level of gear as my paladin. | |||||||||||
| #6433 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Tristan |
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, there's quite easily obtainable alternatives leaving the choice for another time and day when it's needed to pick one.Chest: [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] (Crafted, 2 nethers) Wrists: [Vindicator's Linked Bracers] (Honor) Waist: [Vindicator's Linked Girdle] (Honor) I leveled Leatherworking just to make: [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes], and still haven't specced my leatherworking. I don't expect to choose one unless I find something in WotLK or some new items are added to the speccs. Edit: Nether requirement for Shadowprowler's Chestguard Last edited by Tristan : 01/29/08 at 6:12 AM. | |||||||||||
| #6434 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Jumbotron |
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Thanks also to Malan and everyone who's contributed to the thread, there's not a more comprehensive guide to enhancement shaman on the net. | |||||||||||
| #6435 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Conq[SUN] |
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Think I will follow you advice and wait and see though. It seems the crafted armor you can get by speccing is not as good for shaman as it seems to be for other classes. Thanks. | |||||||||||
| #6436 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Farstrider |
[Shadowprowler's Chestguard] is only 2 nethers, not 4, so pretty achievable in an afternoon if you go with a guild group. Alternatively they are probably around 1,000-1,200 gold these days - they have been cheapened by the new badge loot alternatives.
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| #6437 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Wraithlin |
Shadowprowlers is also a relatively small upgrade from the S1 Galdiator chest for its cost in time/money.
I actually have all the mats for a Shadowprowler's Chest but cant bring myself to craft and enchant it for what works out as around a 30EP gain with my current weightings. | |||||||||||
| #6438 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Skizzilini |
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Edit: I guess this post was deleted, but my question still remains. | |||||||||||
| #6439 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Wraithlin |
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Put your stats in the simulator, run it for 1000+ hours, write down your new AEP values; ifyou put those in enhancer it will even work out for you which items an an upgrade and how much of an upgrade they represent. Really, it is all there if people were a little less lazy. I found all the information you just asked for, myself, less than a week ago, using the search functions of this forum and a little time of my own. | |||||||||||
| #6440 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Tsalrioth |
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As said, for me Int and Stam are both tie-breakers in choosing gear. I wont use them in the initial calculations, but they help when theres a tiny EAP difference between 2 pieces of gear. | |||||||||||
| #6441 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Raut |
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Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information. | |||||||||||
| #6442 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
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| #6443 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Stopokingme |
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| #6444 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Raut |
Ah. Well, further proof of my lack of enhance knowledge.
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| #6445 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Oprahwinfury |
When I weigh Expertise Rating at 3.52 on lootrank.com, [Gloves of the Searing Grip] gets a score 4 EP higher than [Fists of Mukoa]. Does this really mean the leather gloves are superior as the Expertise is rounded down to 4 from 4.57 on the character sheet? I don't have any other items with Expertise Rating on them.
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| #6446 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Iku |
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| #6447 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • ikillyouheal |
I just ran the sim for my stats again, and it seems like I got some really high numbers for hit.
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Customize Item Score Multipliers Seems like t5 Gloves are the best ones in the game for me at the moment. I ran the sim for 1500 hours twice and came to the same conclusion both times. Any input? | |||||||||||
| #6448 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Iku |
The T5 enhancement glove score on Thottbot seems bugged and is far too high.
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| #6449 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Sebudai |
I don't think 1500 hours is enough. I get some pretty big swings running it for 10,000 hours.
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| #6450 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
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| #6476 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Zinzoo |
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Edit: As for ignoring stats gained from other weapons, I worded that really poorly. Crit, AP, and Hit gained from the other weapons were included, it was weapon procs that I did not include, since the only one in this case was the Syphon's drain life proc (which I believe an accurate PPM still has not been established for). Last edited by Zinzoo : 01/24/08 at 3:48 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6477 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | calem |
totem twisting clarification
Quick question to clarify my understanding. I just started totem twisting and have the cycle down pretty smooth. I've asked the rogues in my group and our raid leader if they see a difference with twisting, and none have been able to quantify it, myself included. Based on the community and basic math, it's doing something obviously, just don't know how much of an increase.
We did Teron Gorefiend last night and as I was looking through my parse, I saw that I got 32 Windfury totems and 32 Grace of Air totems dropped. Then I looked at the rogues and saw they got 32 WF procs, which makes sense, 1 proc per totem drop. I'm looking for confirmation on what I'm seeing and making sure I'm not accidentally lowering dps for my group. As windfury weapon imbue has a 3sec cooldown, does WF totem have a 9sec cooldown? If i left WF totem down the whole time, would the group still only have 32 procs, or would the buff refresh itself and be used more than once in 9 secs? I'm assuming it wouldn't or there would be some mention on these forums and twisting wouldn't be as useful. I know this seems obvious, guess i'm just looking to make sure my thinking is correct. WWS - WWS Teron Gorefiend | |||||||||||
| #6478 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Vim |
While the Totem Imbue is on the party members weapons, they have a 20% chance to proc WF. Having it down all the time as opposed to twisting will not raise the number of procs. On the other hand, you have to be right on top of the twisting cycle so you always have the WF imbue on party members weapons. Dropping it late can reduce the groups DPS significantly over time. WF totem buffs are actually refreshed every 5 seconds, (periodic trigger) so I dont think that they are missing out on any procs unless you dont have WF down as soon as those 9 seconds are up.
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| #6479 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rapparee |
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Tinytalonius got 16 WF attacks: Miniragnare got 32 WF attacks, which is just coincidence that you dropped 32 wf totems. Dhegin got 31 WF attacks. Your group does not gain one WF hit per time you cast WF totem.... If that was true, then this community would suggest that every avaialble cooldown of an enhancement shaman should be used to cast WF totem, again and again.... | |||||||||||
| #6480 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | calem |
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The more I think about this, there must be some kind of 9sec cooldown on WF procs from the totem, or something along those lines. Otherwise the more experienced members of the community would have found a major flaw in totem twisting. If the buff was consumed on proc and could be re-appliedd within 9sec by leaving the totem down, twisting GoA with WF wouldn't be more dps. So I assume the buff isn't consumed but doesn't proc again because of the cooldown. At least that's what the WWS leads me to believe. I'm thinking out loud, anyone else understand what I'm saying, and more importantly trying to figure out? | |||||||||||
| #6481 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Emaze |
I was wondering if someone could explain why my EP values in Yo!'s sim are so much different then the "stand" t6 list. Anyone else getting number completely different?
AP - 1 Crit - 2.45 Hit - 1.71 Haste - 1.77 ArmPen - .29 Str - 2.2 Agi - 2.39 Expert - 3.51 And my other question is about expertise. Does that 3.51 rating mean [Shapeshifter's Signet] has a value of 129.95? I got around the same value for expertise when I did the formula. Last edited by Emaze : 01/24/08 at 11:05 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6482 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Sebudai |
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| #6483 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Manifesto |
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Also, I can confirm the cast is actually 2.2s! EDIT: I got home and did some testing ingame... With my 1630 Unbuffed Attack power, which obviously fluctuates in raids with procs. It hits for about 170 ever 2.2s, Magma pulsing for 149/2 sec, So searing gets much more benefit from spell damage... and would scale very nicely. Boy to I feel silly for all my Magma spam... Is anyone interested in doing math for maintaining Searing, and dropping Fire Novas every 15 seconds? Last edited by Manifesto : 01/24/08 at 11:25 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6484 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Morelis |
I'm not going to do a bunch of math but I will say my searing totem hits or a lot more than 131. With raid buffs it shoots for around 250 and according to Thottbot World of Warcraft: Attack it's a 2.2s cast. With the same buffs my magma totem ticks for about 170.
If we're only hitting one mob it seems pretty easy to figure out which one is better. | |||||||||||
| #6485 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Smokestomp |
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----------------------------------------------------------- The T6 values on the main page need to be revised. Crit and Agility should be equivalent given BoK is assumed, no? ![]()
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| #6486 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Morelis | ||||||||||||
| #6487 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
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| #6488 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Wraithlin |
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I was very confused why we would want something with dagger skill and feral combat rating. Also, my expertise value comes out at 2.5, that seems low relative to other peoples, but I do have 8 expertise already. | |||||||||||
| #6489 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Monkeyfun |
Ring Enchant
Which ring enchant is better for an enhancement shaman?
Increased Weapon damage or +4 to stats? Sorry if this is a repeat question, the post is rather long. | |||||||||||
| #6490 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Kirion |
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Use search, really | |||||||||||
| #6491 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Extenze |
The Crystalforged Trinket, a Revered rep reward from Ogri'la, has an EP value of 134 (98 [+7 dmg = 98ap] + (216 * 10 / 60))
That would make it better than the Bloodlust Broach, and almost as good as the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision. Last edited by Extenze : 01/25/08 at 1:30 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6492 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
Please, numbers when you use the word "significant." We all have different opinions of "significant;" I defined it as 1% of total DPS.
What's the value of Windfury to a group's DPS? A contentious issue. Judging by last night's WWS, my Fury warrior gets 6% additional DPS, my best rogue 7.2%. (I calculated this by taking a group that had no windfury, removing the benefit of GoA considered as 3% of their white damage, and calculating how much extra DPS they would see from an additonal 20% of 66% of their white damage) If I had a group of 1 warrior, three of my best rogue and me, and assuming we all did the same DPS, the average increase in DPS for the group would be 5.52% Your numbers can and will vary. What's the value of GoA to a group's DPS? GoA adds about 3% to each of us (the rogues get less crit, but they get AP which helps offset it). What's the value of twisting? They're multiplicative; 1.0552 * 1.03 = 8.6% However, you lose GoA for the 1.5s after you drop WF. This will slightly decrease the benefit What's the penalty for not dropping Windfury on time? You go from an 8.2% buff to a 3% buff. So what's the net benefit, over time, for twisting, w/r to slipping? (Benefit of WF * 1.5 + Benefit of WF & GoA * 8.5s + Benefit of just GoA * time slipped) / total time Slip by an average of 0s per cycle over time: 8.14% to total group DPS Slip by an average of 1s per cycle over time: 7.67% (.47% lost) Slip by an average of 2s per cycle over time: 7.28% (.86% lost) Slip by an average of 3s per cycle over time: 6.95% (1.19% lost) So, you can slip by up to 2s and not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce DPS, IMO. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/27/08 at 8:56 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6493 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
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2x 2.6s weapons: +2.69 MH DPS, +2.69 OH DPS = ~32 EP + 36 proc = 68 EP. That trinket is garbage and if you'd searched the thread, you'd have seen that. | |||||||||||
| #6494 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Ilmatar |
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I try to keep slips to below 2s because that is >~MH speed of my sword rogues and ret pally. Worst case I want to keep their un-WF'd hits to a minimum of 1 for totem switches. That's how I've been estimating slip-impact. | |||||||||||
| #6495 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
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| #6496 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Subpar |
With the introduction of s3 weapons, how do they stack up to Syphons? I'm newly entering Hyjal/BT and am lucky enough to have both s3 weapons. Should i be spending DKP on any Syphon that drops or are the s3 weapons just plain superior?
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| #6497 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Bargle |
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| #6498 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Pitbuller |
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| #6499 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Stoneclaw |
Concerning meta gem selection:
After using the search and finding nothing on using [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] as an enhancement shaman, here my question: Is it viable to replace the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] as meta? If the RED gives roughly a dps boost of 1% given a crit rating of 30% or more and the BED gives 2% less threat, would that not in theory give a shaman the ability to do 100% damage at 98% threat (I know the calculation becomes a bit less accurate once you factor in Spirit Weapons and BoS, but hear me out) instead of 101% damage at 101% threat? Taking into account that at least some work is going into keeping threat down, there would be potential for dps that may be freed by using the BED. Of course, this only makes sense if you need to actively decrease threat. But if you do, is it viable? To finish with a table of what I mean: If the damage is the limiting factor, not normalized: [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] - 100% dmg - 98% threat [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - 101% dmg - 101% threat If the threat is the limiting factor, normalized to 100% threat: [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] - 102.04% dmg - 100% threat [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - 100% dmg - 100% threat | |||||||||||
| #6500 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
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| #6601 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
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Of course, if what we're talking about is folks with some zany cycle that is going to result in the sacrificing one ability or the other, then yes, this will add up to less WF. (I didn't realize this was the suggestion; I thought we were discussing the SS/Shock race condition that occurs naturally every 31s). With WF being such a feedback system, and considering that picking shocks vs strikes doesn't look like it'll have a 1% benefit in either direction, I'm going to shut up and wallow in my own wasted math. | |||||||||||
| #6602 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Malan |
I don't know about this 31 second cycle with shock/stormstrike colliding. For me its occuring damn near every time SS comes up. Teron is a good example of that since I can just stand in one place for 4-5 minutes (if not ghosted) and focus completely on hitting shocks and SS as soon as the cooldown expires, and every single time that SS is off CD I have a shock coming off at the same time.
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| #6603 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Stopokingme |
This is actually not true, even though the character screen says you gain 5 expertise when wielding one axe, doesn't mean it's also applied to your other non axe weapon. The character screen just can't display expertise per hand (yet).
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| #6604 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
Malan: Well, research done from this post actually shows two interactions cycling every 31s; the actual interactions occur at 13s and 31s:
![]() 0s FS (CD up at 6s) 1.5 SS (CD up at 11.5s) 6 ES (CD up at 12s) 11.5 SS (CD up at 12.5s, GCD up at 13s) 13 FS (off by 1s due to GCD, CD up at 19s) 19 ES (CD up at 25s) 21.5 SS (CD up at 31.5s) 25 FS (CD up at 31) 31 ES (GCD up at 32.5) 32.5 SS (off by 1s due to GCD, then continues as at 1.5s above) If you were to prioritize strikes, you'd see a different cycle resulting in the loss of 2s of shocks per 20 (or 1 whole shock per minute): ![]() 0 SS (CD up at 10s) 1.5 FS (CD up at 7.5s) 7.5 ES (CD up at 13.5s) 10 SS (CD up at 22.5s, GCD up at 13s) 13.5 FS (CD up at 19.5s) 20 SS (CD up at 25s) 21.5 ES (off by 2s due to GCD, repeating as 1.5s above) Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/31/08 at 1:13 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6605 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Malan |
Now try it with a 50ms lag on each end of button push + notification of something being ready, and lets say another 0.75-0.5 sec or so of realizing that something is ready to be pushed.
(Also did you mean to write ES twice in that 2nd example?) | |||||||||||
| #6606 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Rob |
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I can understand the tendency to want to model everything, but this is (to me) one of those cases where it just doesn't work out. You're essentially dealing with the interaction of two different overlapping timers (SS and shocks), which is easy, but you've also got to take into account another overlapping timer (autoattack) that has a semi-random duration (due to Flurry gaining/fading) which randomly procs another three-second timer. Oh, and don't forget that if WF is on cooldown, that ten second SS timer extends until WF is off cooldown. The fact that there are so many decision points influenced by random variables makes it so that we're not really talking about a simple ten-second timer anymore, and I think the modeling falls flat on its face at this point. Now, obviously, if WF is on cooldown and shock and SS are both up at the same time, hitting shock is the best idea (since we know that delaying SS for WF to be off cooldown is a DPS increase). However, if WF is not on cooldown, hitting SS is the best idea, because you are looking at more potential damage from that SS. I think we can probably all agree on this, and it makes the discussion (which ability to delay?) rather moot. | |||||||||||
| #6607 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Malan |
Can I solicit someone to give me an initial/rough writeup that covers Flametongue + Frostbrand?
Oh and also maybe a "brief intro to enhancement" that would cover 'what we bring to the raid' and basically explaining how we're highly tied to gear choices, procs, etc. | |||||||||||
| #6608 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Kalamadea |
So if it can't be modeled, what's the priority list for Max DPS?
I think from reading WF totem buff > all the rest of our abilities (correct me if I'm wrong). However, should you drop WF totem but delay dropping GoA for a shock or SS? Or does GoA > personal DPS at that point? If SS and Shocks are up at the same time and WF is off CD, which should I do first? Which plays into the next question.. If WF is locked out, and SS is up and shocks are going to be off CD at the same time WF is off CD, should I go ahead and SS then shock? Or delay the SS and the shock to get a SS/WF combo? If I have a moonkin/ele shaman in the raid, should I SS then ES immediately to use my debuff, or FS and let him use up both charges? (I think I know the answer just don't want to give up my 20% dmg boost. >.< ) If I can't model it, at least I'd like to know which is most important to keep up the highest damage. Edit: Changed an on to an off. Last edited by Kalamadea : 01/31/08 at 2:33 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6609 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Delita |
Malan, did you want it to be an intro to enhancement for new shamans, for raid leaders or explaining the abilitites we possess? I've already started, but I think from a raid leaders perspective they just want a quick and dirty explanation, whereas new shamans might want more in depth stuff.
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| #6610 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Malan |
Quick and dirty. More like a "so you are considering rolling/taking an enhance shaman ..." sort of thing, 5-10 lines. Literally just an intro for the wiki article.
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| #6611 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Delita |
So you’ve found some crazy internet fiend to play an enhancement shaman in your raid. Great, they provide passive AP/Crit buffs from totems and procs, as well as the sought after Windfury all the rogues cry over. They are a HIGHLY proc based class that possess very few active abilities. They can replenish their mana pools based on Attack Power however, which is why you will see a lot of enhancement shaman in leather gear, increasing their crit rate to improve proc rates and increasing their attack power to return more mana per attack as well as straight DPS increases. What you can expect from an enhancement shaman is WF totem (sword spec + AP on a higher proc rate), 90 agility, 100 Str, 10% AP bonus to their group when they crit and a melee class that can heal themselves in a pinch. They are also one of the highest threat building classes in the game, are good at kiting single targets that can be snared and are highly versatile in group compositions.
How's That? | |||||||||||
| #6612 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Othieus |
I agree with Sebudai completly. Theres no reason why you should shock before ss. Look at it this way...
SS has a 10 sec cd and does roughly 1000 damage non crit (500 for each hand) 1000/10=100dps Flame shock does more damage so we'll use it. It has a 6 sec cd with about 500 inital damage non crit Then about 130 damage every 3 seconds for 12 seconds(4 ticks) For a total of 1020 in 12 sec and 760 in 6 seconds. 760/6=126.777dps 1020/12=85dps Sure the raw dps is greater, but now consider that SS can proc WF and that should be plenty of evidence that SS > Shocks. In short, if you have your SS and shocks come off of cd at the same time, SS first. | |||||||||||
| #6613 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Toots Hepcat |
Kala, if you're going to twist, use the WF->GoA->SS macro, and shock whenever you can inside that framework.
I think it's becoming obvious that trying to prioritize while twisting and watching the WF cooldown will only result in confusion, latency and probably ulcers. | |||||||||||
| #6614 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | drats |
I actually ended up kiting a ROS blue ghost around the bloodboil trash area for about 2 minutes while my guild screwed around with loot. When I pulled aggro I thought I was toast, but I was able to sheild/SR/earth elemental and get far enough away to start the kite. It was the most fun I've had in BT in weeks, I hope blizzard implements something like that in future raid encounters (more of the tin-man, I guess).
As far as the twisting macro is concerned, I've stayed away from them. There are times when I get behind in the rotation due to lag/reaction speed/etc where it's easier just to skip 3.5s of GoA in order to get a quick heal/warstomp or some other situational thing. An important part of being an enh shaman is maintaining your personal DPS and situational abilities, totem twisting shouldn't interfere with either of these things. | |||||||||||
| #6615 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Binkenstein |
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Layout looks nice, and I guess there will be a Vol 2 in the near future. | |||||||||||
| #6616 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Othieus | ||||||||||||
| #6617 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | LazyJoe |
Since 2.2 it's not really true, our physical dps (~85% of the total) has the same aggro as a rogue's one. There's always the risk of some big windfury proc right at the first strike, but holding back a few seconds is enough for the tank to generate enough threat.
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| #6618 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Kalamadea |
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| #6619 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Morelis |
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| #6620 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Daler |
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| #6621 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Morelis |
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AP 1782 Crit 32.77% Hit 22% (resto sub-spec currently) Haste 2.35% Armor pen. 126 Str 201 Agi 332 Buffs/Debuffs Imp GOTW, FF Imp Hunter's mark, Expose Imp scorch BoK, Imp SotC, Imp BoM Misery SoE, GoA, No SS CoE, Malediction, CoR Imp BS, Sapphire, SA, BF Flask, No pots, Clefthoof The results have been very consistent over several months with many gear changes. | |||||||||||
| #6622 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | poofypajamas |
Ok well, I realize I'm probably overlooking something pretty major here, but why is it that hit rating is considerably more valuable at the T6 raid item value than at the T5 or T4? I looked through the post and did not see the answer anywhere and unfortunately, I don't have the patience to look through 250 or so pages of posts to find the answer lol.
I have 1466 AP, with 29.81% crit, and 413 armor penetration unbuffed. Which simulator should I be primarily using with those stats, tier 5? | |||||||||||
| #6623 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | vorda |
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edit: about the values, you can always consider using Yo!'s simulator and get your own personalised values ![]() | |||||||||||
| #6624 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Disquette |
This post is just a happy "how bout that" moment. Because of a misguided post on the Blizzard forums, I was reminded to run Yo!'s sim to prove something that I've claimed for many months:
slower weapons = higher % of attacks are flurried. Most of the official forum people for some reason cannot process this fact, though at least some of them get it half right, thinking that they flurry % would be equal between fast and slow weapons. This was the first time I'd thought to actually verify the hypothesis with the sim, and it worked just spiffy. That's all, just sharing some vindication/happiness on a topic I wish I had the ability to concretely address months ago. | |||||||||||
| #6625 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Wundorn |
Um... isn't this blindingly obvious? WF is not normalized, so you get more WFs per white attack with slower weapons. This is the basis of "shams need slow weapons". Given this fundamental tenet, it's not exactly a stretch to say that the more WFs per white, the more chances to flurry. Or is there some other issue I'm missing that complicates this?
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| #6676 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Paradox |
Definetly worth getting 2x [Shifting Tanzanite] for the RED now, one for your Midnight chest and 1 for the Bow-Stitched legs
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| #6677 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Krom[Fenris] |
Alright. I've been reading this thread for awhile and I'll be the first to admit that a lot of it goes over my head. I'm not as dedicated as a lot of you, and math is far from my strong suit. But I pick up useful information here and there that I can grasp. I've always been a bit wary about using Yo!'s simulator, but I finally took the plunge. A few questions:
- The option for Band of the Eternal Champion is greyed out for me. Is this just an incomplete feature? - I use Pawn, not Enhancer. I assume I should take the EP values Yo!'s spits out after it's done and enter them into Pawn. - I was shocked by some of my EP values. Using the baseline Atk 1 value, it has Crit 2.01 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.8 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.2 / Agi 1.96 / Expertise 3.38. Some of those were surprising. I was surprised Hit and Haste were valued so high. Last edited by Krom[Fenris] : 02/01/08 at 8:32 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6678 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Sancho |
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| #6679 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Malan |
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Yes. Run it for longer and more times and then take an average. | |||||||||||
| #6680 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | CeNo65 |
2.8 vs 2.6
i entered some basic numbers into yo's
i only changed atk,crit,haste, weapon speed and weapon dps. 1800 atk 36% crit 8% haste 100dps 2.8speed weapons x2 =1410 100dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1385 101dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1388 102dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1391 103dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1394 104dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1398 105dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1402 106dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1405 107dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1409 108dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1413 103dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1403 104dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1407 105dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1410 Then the same inputs but with much lower crit (30%) 108dps 2.6speed = 1343 103dps 2.6speed = 1326 100dps 2.8speed = 1338 This test doesn't take into effect the weapon stats etc. Basically I'm seeing that two Syphons are best until you have two 2.6 speed weapons with 108dps, or a 105dps 2.6 speed MH and a 100dps 2.8speed OH I know its different for every ones values but i just stuck with top leather and full t6 stats | |||||||||||
| #6681 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | rava |
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2x syphons stats with buffs/debuffs: 2.35% haste 15.02% hit 1800 ap 33.15% crit 301 armor ignore 6 expertise @7700ac=1627, 1628, 1629, 1628 @6200ac=1785, 1787, 1788, 1786 2x vengeful stats with same buffs/debuffs: 2.35% haste 16.04% hit 1768 ap 35.05% crit 399 armor ignore 6 expertise @7700 ac =1630, 1628, 1629, 1628 @6200 ac=1808, 1808, 1808, 1809 On higher AC mobs/phase 1 souls you'll see similar results between syphons and vengeful, get into lower ac mobs(Teron, Anetheron, others I don't remember) and the numbers swing more in vengeful's favor. Toss in the 2 armor ignore items that I am lacking and the margin grows further. Statistics are fun because you can make anything look better than what they actually are. | |||||||||||
| #6682 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Paradox |
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| #6683 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Ardonomus |
I wouldn't call S3 axes welfare weapons, since you need 1850 rating to get them.. If it was S1 sure, but it isn't. Hopefully Sunwell will add some new fun weapons to play with.
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| #6684 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Paradox |
Well, for 1,000 gold on my server you can 'pay' people to boost you in 3v3, it takes a single evening... and you get 1850 rating and better than BT weapons. Sounds welfare to me.
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| #6685 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Illundai |
'lo,
our guild has been beginning to try to push DPS on fights such as Teron to see how well we can do on the WWS rankings, We had a semi-decent try at it this week (but got unlucky with who got ghosts, so DPS dropped significantly ) and I was wondering after reviewing our WWS about trinket choice.Khaelyn - WWS This is the WWS. I had 3 Tsunami Talisman procs with Fury of the Crashing Waves and 4 DST Procs (-2 Haste buffs from Haste Potions). The question I was wondering is PERSONAL experience with trinkets on such occasions, I know I could kinda model it with the sim, but that's not really what I'm looking for. As far as I know, the sim can't take into account fight length and that's the biggest factor here - how will I do the most DPS for a short period of time. The question arose to me when I realised I could use [Berserker's Call] twice, not to mention one of the would be up during a Heroism too, probably signifcantly spiking my burst DPS. I was wondering if any of you have already had this dilemma when trying such crazy things as to make fights a DPS fest. I'm thinking [Berserker's Call] will provide me with more DPS than [Tsunami Talisman] but it's just a gut feeling. As such I thought I'd ask if there were others before me that have experimented. | |||||||||||
| #6686 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | rava |
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Anyways, back on topic! The comparisons were to show the silly man that ignoring stat gains on weapons is retarded and leaving out xyz variable will give improper results. | |||||||||||
| #6687 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Shabadu |
With a decent team with the right matrix(war/pal/sham, druid/x/sham) 1850 is really easy. But finding a team already at 1900~2k, and playing 30ish games(winning most) will get you 1850 in a few hours; it's what I ended up doing.
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| #6688 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Mox |
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| #6689 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | rava |
Question for twisters concerning the overlapping shock cd/wf reapplication.
I've been trying a different rotation to see a DPS improvement(SS, WF, GoA, FS, SS, ES, WF, GoA, FS, SS, WF, GoA, ES, so on) and I had one of the rogues yell at me that WF fell off their weapon. I went back to the 3 button deal but it made me wonder if the 1 second of WF uptime was more dps than a shock. So here's the math I did, tried to explain everything as best as I could. Rogue DPS gain from WF: Looking over a WWS, keep in mind this is without kings/battle shout/blood frenzy/flask/food so number is higher, but this is the only reliable info that I have. max hit = 906(number is actually lower, but this is the closest thing to an actual WF hit I can get) 21% glance = 65% 6% dodge = 0% 36% crit = 200% 5% miss = 0% 32% normal = 100% 100 hits 21*906*.65 = 12366.9 +36*906*2 = 65232 +32*906 = 28992 = 106590.8(total)/100(# of swings) = 1065.9 damage per swing average 1065.9*.2(WF proc chance) = 213.18 dps(wing) 2.6speed mainhand/1.35(snd with 2 piece t6) = 1.92 so you are outside of <1.5 window where 2 swings could occur during the global 213.18*2(# of rogues) = 426.36 Warrior DPS gain from WF: Have to go back a ways so numbers may not be entirely accurate here, our warrior has been busy with school/job so he hasn't been raiding. This is without flask/food. max hit = 1590 29% glance = 65% 2% dodge = 0% 38% crit = 200% 8% miss = 0% 23% normal = 100% 100 hits 29*1590*.65 = 29971.5 +38*1590*2 = 120840 +23*1590 = 36570 = 187381.5(total)/100(# of swings) = 1873.81 damage per swing average 1873.81*.2(WF proc chance) = 374.76 dps(wing) 3.5 speed weapon/1.15(33/28 spec, 3/5 flurry) = 3.04 speed, well outside of the window using 15d/4c+fs/2 = 15(1873.81)/4(274.7) + 3.5*3.5/2 = 31.77 rage, going to go with a single extra heroic strike, I'm pretty sure 2+ would delay the auto slam ms auto slam ww thing 1623 average hit hs 38% crit 5% dodge 57% normal = 2158.59 average damage, which changes 1873.81*.2 to (1873.81+2158.59)2, or 806.48dps(wing), but this is where I get tripped up. There's a >50% chance that missing the global on WF won't have any bearing on the warriors DPS, so do I halve this number? If so I'm looking at 403.24 for a warrior, bringing the total of 2 rogues + 1 warrior to 829.6 dps from WF. This does not take Sword spec into account because I am entirely too lazy to try and figure out the math on that and obviously the rogue DPS would be a bit higher with a sensible group. If I were to ballpark the DPS gain from 829 to 1000(170, 85 dps per rogue) with blood frenzy and shout would that be sensible? Even then I'm seeing shocking as a better alternative to WF for that global as my average ES hovers around 1300 and FS around 825/267 ticks. | |||||||||||
| #6690 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Malan |
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| #6691 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Illundai |
Well, the reason I was wondering is that I had more Tsunami procs than I would have BC activations. I was doubting - maybe the stats of TT would outweigh BC's extra AP I'd get.
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| #6692 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Kahdrick |
Hi all, didn't see this discussed in here (and maybe it shouldn't be, but we'll get to that later). However, it's certainly something that I feel would be worth some intense theorycrafting. I also chose to ask in this forum instead of the elemental forum because of everyone's familiarity with enhance gear.
I also think that this is probably not a viable option for raiding, but I've been curious ever since the mental quickness change. Has anyone examined a 33/28/0 spec where the player would gear to max AP and then auto-attack while throwing lightning bolts? I became curious about this from hearing some elemental shamans that I know (who do very good dps) complain about the difficulty in breaking 1000 spell damage, and my own experience as enhance still having over 700 spell damage buffed in pre-T5 gear. With all of the buffs to AP that can be applied to a shaman, is it possible to break 3333 AP? Barring that, what would the dps be of a person in melee range, with melee weapons, using WF and auto attack (prolly it would be MH + caster dps off-hand OR a 2H weapon) who was spamming LB? How much DPS would they need to achieve from auto-attacks in order to make up for the lost dps from not speccing fully into elemental? How much DPS would they need from their lightning bolts in order to make up for not speccing fully into enhance? Would it be possible to make a character with this spec viable for raiding? (I expect this to be a no, but I'm still very curious) Seems to me that the gear would need to be max STR and AP, have just enough hit to break the yellow damage hit cap (5% I think), and the play style would have to allow for melee and caster dps at the same time (assuming an auto attack in between every lightning bolt or every other lightning bolt, depending on weapon speed). Obviously, you can get more +spell damage from wearing all caster gear, but then your melee attacks would hit for nothing (and most casters don't melee ever anyway). The point of this spec would be to have melee still be a significant portion of the dps of the character (LB would still take the lion's share though - I imagine). Likewise, you could gear and spec for full enhance, but then you'd be enhance and not melemental. There, I've created a good name for the spec, too. Additionally, and I think this would probably be the biggest factor killing the spec: Would it be possible to sustain dps without completely running out of mana? Would threat be an issue without spirit weapons (and having to fight in melee range)? I'm thinking that if you can do 2/3 of the damage of an ele shaman with full enhance gear on, that your melee auto-attacks with WF would easily make up the additional 1/3. But I haven't tried the spec and I don't really have the full STR + AP gear that would allow me to maximize a melemental spec. Anyway, have fun with this one. | |||||||||||
| #6693 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Unaz |
You either won't have the AP to sustain the spell damage, or won't have the mana to sustain the lightning bolts. And if you're meleeing in between while waiting on mana, your melee will run dry with that few points in Enhance.
You also won't have Totem of Wrath, or Unleashed Rage. Which are major reasons for having a shaman in your group. Edit: Or weapon mastery, or DW unless you meant 28/33 instead of 33/28 Last edited by Unaz : 02/02/08 at 2:24 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6694 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Delita |
# of procs themselves is great, but you also need to consider buff duration. BC is 20s, Tsunami is 10s, so now you'd need at least 3 TT procs to give about an equal amount of AP/s as well as modelling the other stats the items give. Assuming the items both 'go off' at exactly their CD end AND right @ 0:00 you can model an ideal situation (with everything else being equal) and if you want, take a sample and create a % proc coefficient for TT (BS would be 100% since its an on use trinket). No you're never going to get 2 boss attempts ever to have all things being equal to start building a statistical database, so all the theorycraft goes out the window and we come round to it being totally chance based and reliant on TT going off ASAP.
EDIT: LOL, Casting any spell with a cast duration resets your wswing timer, GL with chain casting LBs with AA on. | |||||||||||
| #6695 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Shabadu |
This makes next to no sense, because the second you start any spell with a cast time, you reset your swing timer, absolutely killing your autoattack dps. Only instants for paladins and shamans do not interrupt the swing timer. There's no way you could make up the lost dps for a 2 sec lb cast in 2sec of autoattack swing vs elemental, nor could you make up 2 sec of autoattack as full enhance with a 2.5 sec cast lb.
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| #6696 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Malan |
Nor would you have the mana pool or regen to sustain it.
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| #6697 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ frmorrison | ||||||||||||
| #6698 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Ilmatar |
Felt like messing with Google Spreadsheets and I made a spreadsheet template for using Yo's simulator that does the averages for you and formats an enhancer string with the averaged values. I think the permissions are set so you can copy it and use the template for yourself.
Google Docs - AEP Averager | |||||||||||
| #6699 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Krom[Fenris] |
Alright, thanks. I ran it 6 times at 10,000 hours each and came up with the following:
AP 1 / Crit 1.91 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.91 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.20 / Agi 1.85 / Expertise 3.40 I'm going to guess 6 runs of it is enough but I could be wrong. Currently my haste is valued the same as crit, very interesting. | |||||||||||
| #6700 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rapparee |
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| #6701 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Kahdrick |
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| #6702 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Yo! |
Added page with the best possible set that sim suggests at current itemization available. Plan to update it as soon as 2.4 loot will be known for sure.
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| #6703 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
I'm trying to figure out how the heck I went from around 30% unbuffed crit on the paperdoll to only 26%. Did anyone else have a drop in crit rate like that as they started grabbing T6 gear?
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| #6704 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Bargle |
My crit is going up...it's my hit that's suffering.
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| #6705 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Bdatik |
My crit took a huge hit after i collected my haste gear. Went from like 30% to 26%, roughly the same as yourself. Taking a look at your armory, its the same 3 pieces of gear that i have that caused the drop (gloves, belt and ring).
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| #6706 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | david0925 |
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However, I am wondering if Dragonstrike ranks higher with the presence of a Dragonspine Trophy (due to haste), we'll see what happens. Edit: since this is the best possible "Gear Set" (which i didn't read, GG), Dragonstrike is probably still third | |||||||||||
| #6707 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
Hah, ok then. Since those are reasonably going to be replaced I won't worry about it. I keep looking over my gear wondering if I'd left off an enchant or had a Shadow Resist item on.
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| #6708 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Bdatik |
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Once we upgrade to [Boneweave Girdle] and [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring], we should be back to where we were previously, but just a little shy of 30% with BoK. Last edited by Bdatik : 02/03/08 at 10:46 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6709 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
This is how my gearing process has been going.
But basically, you would expect your crit, hit, and AP to drop slightly as you gain access to items with haste and armor penetration, since those items will be better but not *so much better* that your overall stats go up even as you add extra stats. From memory, I've dropped from 120 hit to about 90 hit but grabbed about 600 armor penetration and 1% crit. | |||||||||||
| #6710 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat | ||||||||||||
| #6711 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Khaul |
Anyone know why my DPS crashes quite badly when i use 2 x syphons over rising tide/syphon?
Stats with rising/syphon - 1612 AP/27.36%crit/193 Hit Stats with 2 x syphon - 1618/27.36%crit/172 hit Yo!'s parses me higher with syphons and from what people saying, they also parse higher but my DPS really takes a hard drop. I struggle to keep flurry up and drop to the lower half of the DPS meter. Re-equip axe and i go back into the top 5. Baffled at why this is. Its not just on 1 fight, its happening alot and im bloody confused! | |||||||||||
| #6712 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
Did you maybe neglect to enchant/imbue one of your weapons before you switched?
This is the only reason I can think of that RT or Syphon would have a significant advantage over the other. Losing 1.33% hit is bad but shouldn't break you, since you have more than 100. Also, if you're an orc, obviously the orc racial is worth a tremendous amount. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/04/08 at 1:37 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6713 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Khaul |
Dreani and didnt forget to enchant. Standard mongoose/exe combo.
Its werid, i dont know why the drop is that big. If it was only a slight drop, i would just put it down to a bad raid, more shock resists then normal etc. For a drop that big, im not sure what it is. | |||||||||||
| #6714 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Amagnus |
Increasing Health
So I think I've done a pretty good job of obtaining among the best gear for each slot outside of heroics and raids (meaning from quests, regular instances, and an occasional crafted item). I've been using EP to build up as much DPS as possible. All but one of my gear is leather as I was advised in this thread that for instances/raids the favorable DPS stats from most of the leather (over mail) gear is much more important than extra armor (which if you manage threat and don't get hit too much shouldn't be much of a factor).
I'm now transitioning into Heroics and soon KZ. My GM suggested that I increase my health (which has dropped to under 6k unbuffed as I've been focusing on DPS over all else). I definitely see the need for increased health as certain AoE could wipe me out easily. I'm looking for some general direction regarding this issue (and confirmation that increasing health is important) and any specific recommendations that might be warranted. Here is my current gear and thanks for your time: [Helm of the Claw] [Natasha's Choker] [Blackened Leather Spaulders] [Cloak of the Inciter] [Chestguard of the Dark Stalker] [Felstalker Bracers] [Gloves of the Unbound] [Rune-Engraved Belt] [Shattrath Leggings] [The Master's Treads] [Ravenclaw Band] [Overseer's Signet] [Figurine - Felsteel Boar] [Figurine - Nightseye Panther] [Fist of Reckoning] x 2 [Totem of the Void] | |||||||||||
| #6715 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Pitbuller |
Its almoust impossible notice any gear uprgrade or downgrade with only pure gut feeling. Check did you miss any buffs or debuffs those affects much more than any gear upgrades you can get. Buffs are easy to check but debuffs is little harder to see accurately. Imp. hunter mark 110ap or imp. JoC +3% crit is impossible to check for sure. Expose weakness uptime(>250ap) how you can measure it. Or maybe you have just very bad luck.
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| #6716 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | drats |
It could be that you're getting more offhand WF procs using the dual syphons.
I'd say run recount/wws with both weapon configs up to be sure. | |||||||||||
| #6717 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
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A Flask of the Titans is an extra 400 health with no new gear needed; that combined with some stam food should carry you into Kara where you'll see a lot of upgrades with +stam. You can also take the piece of gear with the least EP on it and put some high stamina green in there, until you get your health up to spec. But if you really want to get your best bang for buck, do Battlegrounds and get some Vindicator's gear. A few weeks running AV and you should have 1-2k more health. Or if you don't like PvP, you could find a leatherworker to make you some of the epic craftables that are better than anything you'll find in Karazhan anyway: such as [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] or [Cloak of Darkness]. A combination of the two would be ideal; the Vindicator's Ring and Pendant are better than anything you'll find in Kara. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/04/08 at 5:28 PM. | |||||||||||
| #6718 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Paradox |
Standard would be more like Mongoose/Mongoose?
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| #6719 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
It doesn't matter what the 'standard' is, he's seeing a drop in-game while the sim with the same stats shows an improvement.
Khaul you're going to need to provide some WWS parses in order for anyone to help out. | |||||||||||
| #6720 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Atren |
But did you forget WF imbue? That would be huge drop :P
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| #6721 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Khaul |
I'll get some parses when we do some melee friendly mobs with the new raid week. Najentus for example
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| #6722 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Yo! |
Blizz itemization for us has been so poor (mana per 5 sec..., bad stats distribution ), that best pure DPS set (suggested by sim) contains only rogue leather items with one hunter piece (legs).
Assuming that Sunwell loot has iLevel =159 for set pieces (T4 = 120, T5=133, T6 = 146), iLevel = 154 for non-set items, iLevel = 164 for loot from end-bosses, using Item Level formula from wowwiki (very accurate), using EP values from sim from the best set available, assuming that there will be 7 stats on chest piece (as it is now on pvp chest), further assuming that only non-set pieces can contain no stam/int, it is possible to theorycraft chest armor that will be scored highest with abovementioned EP values (Math behind this is not hard but in order to verify the results one has to run discrete optimization algorithm anyway, so take it by word): Elitist Jerkin Binds when picked up Chest Mail 1078 Armor +20 Strength +15 Agility Durability 140 / 140 Requires Level 70 Equip: Improves hit rating by 14. Equip: Improves haste rating by 17. Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 15. Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 51. Equip: Your attacks ignore 696 of your opponent's armor. "Yo!" iLevel = 154 626 EP (Midnight is scored twice less) Another theorycrafted piece of gear possible within iLevel = 154 that you can find interesting: Dark Naaru Paradox Binds when picked up Chest Mail 1100 Armor Requires Level 70 Equip: Your attacks ignore 1100 of your opponent's armor. Last edited by Yo! : 02/05/08 at 9:51 AM. Reason: Recalculated stats because ap and str can not be found on one piece. Replaced ap with hit. | |||||||||||
| #6723 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Raut |
It's stated that you will never see a str and AP item unless you get some silly <random> item. (Hardly the point though)
One of the basics is also that if you buff one stat far above the norm, it becomes more and more expensive in the item budget. Like "Ring of Pure Stamina" will not have the same point-by-point value of a three stat ring. (Can't find the source on wowwiki) | |||||||||||
| #6724 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Yo! |
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Formulas:Item values - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft Last edited by Yo! : 02/05/08 at 9:54 AM. | |||||||||||
| #6725 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rhaegal |
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Admittedly, you're probably going to be picking up a good main hand from Arc or Shattered Halls, and a good off-hand from heroic UB or Crypts (*shudder*), but don't be afraid to use greens in the meantime. I MH'd a [Dragonmaw] with an [Amani Tomahawk] of the something-or-other for a couple weeks while I was grinding arena points for my [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]. | |||||||||||
| #7001 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Doora |
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Plus Rage & Fury speed is 2.6 not 2.7. Those weapons are in no means better than merciless ones. | |||||||||||
| #7002 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Macar | ||||||||||||
| #7003 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Yo! |
+ Added ranks to elemental talents
+ Added Call of Flame talent + Added support for Lootrank (link is very long so you need to scroll to copy it fully) - Higher ranks of Reverbation produce slightly less dps with same number of shocks per 2 minures due ti the limited Global cooldown simulation. This is offset if you increase number of shocks (that is why you choose reverbation anyway) What is the spell damage coefficient for Searing totem now? [1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7004 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
WoWWiki claims it gets 8%.
[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7005 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Devnex |
Theorycrafting that's intended to rate weapons but doesn't take into account stats/ap/procs.
[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7006 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | possmann |
Shifting Tanzanite missing?
Is there any reason why the Shifting Tanzanite gem isn't listed in the gems section? I believe it is currently the best gem for maximizing shaman dps while fulfilling the blue gem requirements of meta gems or gem bonuses, and deserves mention as it is a fairly unique in this aspect.
Superb guide. [1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7007 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Draenorm |
Have you all talked about how general haste abilities (heroism/ bloodlust, drums) affect the global cooldown for spells in 2.4? When those two abilities are active, totem twisting seems much more fluid. I know it's fairly simple math, but I'd like to see the differences between being hasted/not hasted and how it affects shocking/ stormstriking.
There are also a couple new items to plug your values into: Starstalker Legguards - Items - WOWDB [Clutch of Demise] My aep for the neck is 167, same value as [Choker of Endless Nightmares]. Leggings give me 270 compared to 222 from [Bow-stitched Leggings]. [1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7008 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Myul |
I expect only spellhaste to have an effect on your global cooldown for twisting and shocking, won't it?
Neck is +- 2% as good as the chocker, but a decent stamina upgrade. And if your ferals/fury/rogues don't have it yet, i would pass on it for them. They really need the hit to dps, we don't. The feral leggings are a ~ +5% sidegrade, the other ones are a huge boost of 40-50% for me. What ep are you using? [1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7009 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
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I guess I'm saying that we would need to see the distribution of EP values for a single stat from ~100 sims with the same inputs, to determine if tossing apparent outliers is a productive strategy or not. [1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim Last edited by Rob : 02/12/08 at 12:49 PM. | |||||||||||
| #7010 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Binkenstein |
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[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7011 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Raut |
We are dealing with large data-sets. The numbers we are dealing with are from 10k hours worth of simulated action. Maybe doing the mean over five sims is redundant; we could run 50k hours instead? The median will take the top or bottom of the worst cases, that is a good thing. Then again, if there are variations in the sims, people must be using too small data sets. Bump it to 100k hours. That should even out the 0.1 variations.
[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7012 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | BoinKlasik |
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[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7013 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Mengus |
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[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7014 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Draenorm |
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About the leggings, I didn't calculate sockets in my last post. Here's all 4 leggings for comparion, sockets assume max dps. The values I'm using are the average numbers from 10 10,000 hours. crit 2 hit 1.9 agi 1.94 haste 1.83 armor pen .4 [Bow-stitched Leggings] 287 Starstalker Legguards - Items - WOWDB 335 [Leggings of the Immortal Beast] 332 [Leggings of the Immortal Night] 428 Pretty nice upgrade until you can get your hands on the rogue legs. [1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7015 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Psibeast |
Quick question: I was looking over one of our WWS parses when I noticed I had "misses" for WF and Stormstrike. I got the 9% hit talents and around 150 hit rating on top of that, shouldn't I get 0% misses for special attacks? Or are those attacks that were dodged/parried?
Psibeast - WWS Thanks. [1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7016 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Draenorm |
WWS just counts dodges/ parries as misses
[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7017 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Othieus |
I'll be satisfied when Blizz actuitaly puts in mail thats for Enhance, not just some hunter hand-me-downs. The weapons are starting to look better though...Stalking Vengance is awsome
![]() [1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7018 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
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[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7019 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | jlavarj |
If you expand the stats for an attack row item, it'll show the number of each for parries/dodges/miss
[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7020 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Morelis |
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[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7021 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Gehenna |
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I've always wondered why but never explored into it. [1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7022 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | BoinKlasik |
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[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7023 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rapparee |
According to a WWS of mine from Jan 21st.
Searing totem had a max normal hit of 261 and I was wearing roughly 855spell damage (i was resto that night) I also didn't have Call of Flame. 261 - 66(normal max damage on searing totem) = 195 195/855 = 22.8% So 22.8% of spell damage is my guess as to how much spell damage searing totem receives per tick. I should go in game and test that 50-66 for the base numbers. Roughly 25% feels way too high. [1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7024 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Smokestomp |
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[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [10] See this post by PsiVen. [11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim [15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability. [16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed. [17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead. [18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included. [19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath. [20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon. [21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage. [22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period. [23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this! [24] See this post by PsiVen. [25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability [26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem. [27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here. [28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim | |||||||||||
| #7025 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Asirae |
Ok. I've imported the basic stats to weapons and used T5 equiv. EP values.
Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman Basic formula: EJ EP = weapon dps * (( main-hand EJ EP 9.03 /2.6 ) * speed) + (strength * t5+kings modifier 2.2) + (agility * t5 modifier 2.0) + (crit rating * t5 modifier 2.0) + (hit rating * t5 modifier 1.4) + (haste rating * t5 modifier 1.5) + (armor penetration * t5 modifier 0.3) + (expertise rating * t5/t6 modifier of 3.0 (just guessing here)) My 1st question is.... how to measure (or estimate) the EP value of a proc like Dragonstrike's Chance on Hit: Increase Haste Rating by 212 for 10 seconds? I suppose I could extrapolate Proc Per Min and add that to the overall EP value. Thoughts? | |||||||||||
| #7076 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Storming |
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i understand the concept of some situations showing stats to be greater overall benefit than hit. thats not what im talking about either. im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202. | |||||||||||
| #7077 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Vernichter |
As a follow-up to Diogo's comment, there is a theoretical point in the itemization where you would naturally become hit-capped because your total item budget would be so large that hit-capping would be an optimal use of that budget. However, we aren't at the ilvl where that would happen, and it is unlikely that it ever will with current mechanics. Simply put, between AP/Str, Crit, Agi, hit, expertise, haste, and hit, there are just too many stats to dump itemization points into, and a number of them give better returns per point than +hit, assuming that your gear is relatively balanced.
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| #7078 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Shiyo |
We aren't casters. Each spell a caster uses is affected by being hitcapped. Casters also require less hit rating to become hit capped compared to a dual wield class, and spell hit and melee hit cost equal in the item budget.
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| #7079 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rhagok |
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If however you are just trying to do as much dmg as possible you should not gimp yourself so massively by choosing gear with lots of hit if there is better gear available. | |||||||||||
| #7080 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
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Seriously, though. You don't need to provide justification for "not being hitcapped". You don't prove a negative. What you do is provide justification for being hitcapped. So far nobody has proven that doing so will produce better damage than not being hitcapped, because with current itemization it simply does not. Here is an explanation for why pursuing hitcap is an unproductive strategy for enhancement shamans: If you have 9% +hit from talents, or ~50 hit rating and 6% +hit from talents, your "yellow" attacks (Windfury and Stormstrike) will never miss. Therefore, hit rating affects only about 50% of your damage. Critical strike rating affects 90% of your damage, so it delivers better returns. Strength (and attack power) affect 100% of your damage, so they deliver the best returns. | |||||||||||
| #7081 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Diogo |
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| #7082 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | dukes |
a) You prove your point before you start stating things. Even if that's two WWS parses of you doing more damage with hit cap than without, it's SOME kind of evidence.
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e) If you still don't get it after this many people telling you and your only response being "I don't think being un-hitcapped is really a good thing", then you need to think about this more. | |||||||||||
| #7083 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Storming |
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.
but, ok. its good to be able to discuss things freely here without the usual 'lulz zomg wtfbbq!#$' nonsense of the wow forums. | |||||||||||
| #7084 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Leonina |
Or he should roll a rogue and hitcap that with combatspec
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| #7085 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Shiyo |
Getting hitcapped would gimp your other stats. Proposing getting hitcapped is the same as proposing gimping strength for the purpose of hit.
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| #7086 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Scheme |
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/stopcasting /cast Purge It's not that complicated. | |||||||||||
| #7087 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Penguin |
Yes you did. In order to reach the hit cap, you are going to have to equip gear that ignores str, ap or crit in favour of more hit in the budget. Even if you gem for it, those are sill gems that could be crit. You can't just say "add more hit", because it comes at a cost of stats that will produce better dps.
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| #7088 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
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But consider: you have a yellow slot. You can get +8 Crit Rating gems, or +8 Hit Rating gems. The Crit Rating gem would increase your chance to crit by .36%, the hit rating gem would increase your chance to hit by .5%. However, depending on your spec & cycle, crit applies to 80 to 90% of your damage. Above that first 9%, hit only applies to at best 50% of your damage. This makes the crit gem at worst a .288% increase to total DPS, while the hit rating gem is at best a .25% increase. So, provided that you are not crit capped, a crit gem is always better than a hit gem. And a +8 strength gem is even better. This is true well into BT. The itemization on gear makes a similar trade off to 1 STR = 1 CR = 1 HitR. Thus, if you hit cap, you're sacrificing potential STR and CR gear to do so. Because both those stats offer more gains than HitR, you will necessarily do worse DPS than a shaman who had more balanced gear with the same item level. Hit rating doesn't suck; you're bound to wind up with some of it because there are no pieces of armor with, say, +100 STR and that's it. I've found a lot of upgrades that dropped some STR/AP and Crit/Agi for a large amount of HitR. But if you cap, you will suck compared to others at your level who didn't cap. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/14/08 at 4:03 PM. | |||||||||||
| #7089 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rhaegal |
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Yes, you absolutely are proposing gimping strength and crit for hit. You can't magically add hit onto a piece of gear without either (a) increasing its ilvl (and thus the location of the drop, making it inaccessible at the level of the original item), or (b) removing other stats. Gems are an excellent example, where gemming for hit means that you're not gemming for strength, but the same logic applies when Blizzard assigns stats to gear. They can either put hit on something, or they can add to another stat on it. Therefore, you can't isolate hit into its own discussion, you can only talk about it in terms of how it weights in relation to our other key stats. Certain other classes want to be hit capped because hit, up to the point where they are capped, affects their DPS more than any other stat. Not because there's some all-important plateau of DPS that you can only reach if you never miss. The hit cap for them is simply the point where the stat is no longer worth anything. For us, it's never (unless you're Enh/Elem instead of Enh/Resto) the case that hit is worth that much. It's that simple. | |||||||||||
| #7090 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | rava | ||||||||||||
| #7091 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Gehenna |
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For example, i use this: #show Tawny Windrider /stopcast /cast [harm] Purge; [target=targettarget, harm] Purge /userandom [nobutton:2, flyable, nomounted] Tawny Windrider; [nomounted] Horn of the Swift Brown Wolf, Horn of the Frostwolf Howler /dismount END If someone knows another method, I'd love to know myself. I've been owrking to find a hotkey that i can make that purges when the target can be purged, and if not, use my cast sequence. On another note, in the explanation about expertise on the front page, one sentence could perhaps be edited for clarity: "To get around this, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 3.95, take the floor, and multiply by 3.95 again." I just think "round down to the nearest whole integer" would be better than "take the floor" for those not not savvy with math jargon like this. Maybe I'm wrong, just a suggestion. | |||||||||||
| #7092 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | • Sebudai |
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1 point of hit rating just plain provides a smaller damage increase than 1 point of crit rating. Why? I don't know. Ask Blizzard. Hit rating isn't really a "lesser" stat. It does actually surpass stats like agility and haste rating in many situations. I've actually had hit rating get really close(.1 EP) to the value of crit rating based off of my own use of the simulator. I've never had it actually surpass crit though. In short, hit rating is slightly less valuable than stats like strength, attack power, crit rating and expertise because math says it is. Math is a badass, so I wouldn't insult it if I were you. Last edited by Sebudai : 02/14/08 at 5:08 PM. | |||||||||||
| #7093 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | • Binkenstein |
Math for the new trinket!
I'm going to work on putting together a decent framework for looking at proc based trinkets. Also: full credit for the original equation to whoever it was that made it (can't remember names right now). ![]()
Last edited by Binkenstein : 02/14/08 at 5:54 PM. | |||||||||||
| #7094 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Cuddly |
While we are on the subject of hit rating, are we valuing the increased windfury procs due to not missing an attack that would proc it?
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| #7095 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rhaegal |
Should that formula take into account that Flurry makes a 2.6 speed weapon effectively 1.82? Plugging numbers back in, I get:
230*(20/(0.1*1.100+45)) = 102.0 AP | |||||||||||
| #7096 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rhaegal | ||||||||||||
| #7097 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Mbuzi |
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| #7098 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Ardonomus |
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First you say it's *0.1)+45, and in the edit you type /.1+45. Shouldn't it be 230*(20/(0.769*.1+45)) -> 230*(20/45.0769) -> ~102,05EP, or do I lack some understanding here? And if it is indeed just a typo, which one is correct? ![]() Last edited by Ardonomus : 02/14/08 at 6:23 PM. Reason: Clarifying | |||||||||||
| #7099 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Solomir |
Can anyone explain to me why on maxdps.com, the 'EP' value of haste is so inflated? I'm thinking it's due to the modelling of WF to not include a 3s cooldown, but I'm not totally sure.
I was also thinking that with all the haste gear coming out in 2.4 we can do some tests to see if the 1.4-1.5 haste valley really exists. Looking at all the available passive haste gear so far available, we can get 444 haste rating/28.17% haste. We can probably run tests using a set of [Sun-forged Cleaver] to model the effect of adding/removing haste. [edit] actually, all that haste is only enough to bring 2.6 down to 1.54 with 100% flurry. Seems we need just a little bit more haste (which is probably in the rest of the sunwell gear) | |||||||||||
| #7100 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Grogimer |
Solomir, As stated in the original post it was already disproved.
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| #7101 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Grogimer |
Solomir, As stated in the original post it was already disproved.
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| #7102 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Solomir |
I believe the point disproving the haste valley was made in the context of the fact that you'd only be seeing speeds in that region when procs/BLust was active, and not passively over the course of a 5+ minute fight. If you were supposedly sitting at a 1.54 speed when flurried, and then another haste item dropped, could it actually lead to a drop in dps due to dropping below 1.5 speed? Obviously, no one at the moment would actually consider pursuing a full haste set (it requires the BT haste gear and the ZA cloak), but as item levels inflate, it is possible at some time that hitting that kind of passive haste is possible for top end gear, unless they rework how windfury works.
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| #7103 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Pitbuller |
Test haste valley with Yo's sim.
flurry off. mongooses off. Edit: haste pots off. weapon speed 1.51 passive haste 0% test run 1# 851dps. passive haste 1% test run 2# 809dps. EDIT: Damn forget to take off haste pots. I tested with 1.51 too but 30passive haste was too much to ruin all results. Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/15/08 at 5:27 AM. | |||||||||||
| #7104 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Binkenstein |
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Revised formula (not tested) is | |||||||||||
| #7105 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Disquette |
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2500 AP 30% crit 15% hit 1.6 speed MH, 1.6 speed OH MH DPS: 97.5, OH DPS: 93.7 MH/OH expertise: 8 flurry off, crusader/crusader 0% haste: 1167 dps 5% haste: 1118 dps The valley certainly can exist, but I don't know how often a person would hit it using real life gear and talents. I think you get what you saw because of how yo! handles 1.5 speed (greater than versus greater-than/equal to). If you run your same test using 1.55 as the default weapon speed instead of 1.5, you'll see a rather enormous dps loss from 1% haste. | |||||||||||
| #7106 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Illundai |
Tier 6 Shaman Bracers were changed, 64 ap converted to 32 str, 22 agi converted to 22 hit rating.
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| #7107 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Jarlaxle |
Okay so....
Over the past couple of days I have accumulated various pieces with armor ignore on it. I've gotten Dory's Embrace 112 armor ignore, Vindicator's Badn of Triumph 56 armor ignore, and Bladeangel's Money Belt 77 armor ignore. Is this enough of armor ignore to make Executioner on the MH worth it? Or do I still need to stack more? | |||||||||||
| #7108 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ frozndevl |
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Last edited by frozndevl : 02/15/08 at 12:13 PM. | |||||||||||
| #7109 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Jarlaxle |
Okay - I just freshly built my computer. I been hesitant to install random crap on it that i dont usualy use (java)
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| #7110 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Ardonomus |
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![]() But if the *0.1 is correct compared to /0.1, then you get a slight difference of ~15EP in your formula due to the difference in the "chance" calculation you first posted, if I understand it correctly | |||||||||||
| #7111 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Tristan |
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![]() /castsequence reset=10 Stormstrike, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge | |||||||||||
| #7112 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Doora |
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I would use: ![]() /castsequence reset=shift Stormstrike, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge I'm not sure if a Purge that receive a "nothing to dispell" error will still count as spell used in the castsequence, but I guess it does. | |||||||||||
| #7113 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Khlysti |
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This was entirely the point of the disproving. With no flurry or other proc style haste effects its a fairly simple math proof to show small amounts of haste that take you from >1.5 speed to <1.5 speed will lead to a small dps loss, however this is not (in all tests in game and sim runs I have done) reproducable in a 'real world' situation. Simply adding in flurry is enough that flurried speed going from above to below 1.5 is a dps increase (it is however a much smaller increase than adding the same amount of haste and not crossing that line). Once the use of haste pots, heroism/lust, drums and mongoose are added in (even more so if you use DST or dragonstrike) there is no single speed value you are at for long enough that going over the 1.5 line for that value will result in a decrease in overall dps. The general point is, in a raid situation haste will provide a dps increase no matter what your current hasted weapon speed, but the haste item that takes you over the 1.5 point when flurried *may* have a slightly lower dps boost than it otherwise would if you don't use many proc / short term use haste effects. | |||||||||||
| #7114 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Disquette |
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No new thoughts or anything like that, just making sure that Pitbuller understands how that particular aspect of Yo's sim acts. | |||||||||||
| #7115 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Tuili |
Well if you dislike error messages it is... Try:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast Stormstrike /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /script UIErrorsFrame:Show() /stopcasting /cast Purge This way during the CD there will be no "Ability not ready" but you will still get the "Nothing to dispell" message, which has more relevance imo. If you want to hide that too (maybe you use an addon that tells you what was purged, and seeing that nothing was is enough for you) Just move the last two lines to within the UIErrors confine. | |||||||||||
| #7116 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Ezeckial |
I've been pondering the possible dps viability of dual Deathfrost in PvE. I haven't seen anything about it's proc rate or the impacts of Dual Wielding on said proc rate.
Deathfrost Tooltip Permanently enchant a weapon so your damaging spells and melee hits occasionally inflict an additional 150 Frost damage and reduce the target's melee, ranged, and casting speed by 15% for 4 sec. Dual Wielding the enchant may double the proc rate on your shocks. Also due to the wording on the enchant it may double the proc rate on each of your melee hits. Most enchants say that the weapon has a chance to proc the effect. (I'm thinking misplaced servo arm mechanics, I remember getting a 2nd one was supposed to be a huge buff to dps) Without numbers and knowing how having 2 weapons enchanted effects the proc rate on spells and melee hits it's all just conjecture. However I'd be interested in seeing how the numbers work out. Last edited by Ezeckial : 02/15/08 at 11:19 AM. | |||||||||||
| #7117 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Jabor |
Hello there, i have a question which i can't seem to find an answer to anywhere in your posts or in any of the reply'.
The other day i had the Coif of the jungle stalker drop from Hex lord, i am running around with my good old Cyclone helm and i was wondering what the rating of a meta socket should be, as in how i am to know if an item with a meta socket is better than one without even tho the item without has superior stats, i know that the meta socket will yield ~1 % dps increase, but i cant do the math, i hope you guys can help me. Last edited by Jabor : 02/15/08 at 12:05 PM. Reason: I fail at linking items | |||||||||||
| #7118 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Malan |
We noted several pages back that Deathfrost is highly unlikely to stack with Thunderclap/CoT or even work on raid bosses.
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| #7119 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Ezeckial |
The deathfrost slowing effect is unlikely to work on raid bosses that's for sure. Even then Imp. T-clap is better and it would probably override.
I was considering it from a pure dps standpoint. Even if it's immune to the slowing effect, mobs will not be immune to the 150 frost damage. I'm just wondering if it would be like a super fiery. That also effects shocks. But all this really depends as I said on proc rate and how having it on 2 weapons works. Exocutioner/Mongoose or Mongoose/Mongoose will probably be better, but seeing some numbers still interests me. I just hadn't seen it looked at from this point of view yet, and don't have access to any numbers to present. So I was wondering if anyone else did. | |||||||||||
| #7120 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | rava |
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As far as Deathfrost, I plan on putting it on two gutgores just to spit in warlocks' faces. | |||||||||||
| #7121 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Shinanigans |
Alright, while reading through all of this "haste rating" talk, I get utterly confused.
I just got my first piece of Haste Rating gear last night -- [Grips of Damnation]. Quote from original post: "Haste Rating will directly increase the contribution of white swings to your DPS - 1% Haste will generate 1% more auto attack DPS." How much Haste Rating makes 1% haste? I am sure this has been answered elsewhere. I am just not finding it. | |||||||||||
| #7122 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Malan |
WowWiki.com and even the WoWhead link of the item in question would answer that question for you.
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| #7123 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ♦ Shinanigans |
Alright, so the data for you lazy people.
Directly from WoWWiki: "Every 15.7 Points of Haste rating you will have 1% more Attack Speed." | |||||||||||
| #7124 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Jabor |
@rava, sorry for missing it, theres like 300 pages, i searched around 100 of em.
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| #7125 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rhaegal | ||||||||||||
| #7151 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Macar |
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| #7152 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Leonina |
Lujaar: uhm, the trinket is already been discussed here, it's very high procrate, 45sec. internal cooldown. the AEP comes out at over 200.
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| #7153 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | falonub |
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For entry raid enhancement shaman there will most likely be more gain from using double Mongoose; in order to make up for potential low crit rating if need be. In addition to potentially making up for lower crit rating, to have Mongoose/Executioner be viable you'd need an amount of ignore armor that is almost unobtainable to an enhancement shaman in the early stages of raiding. As you progress through endgame content more ignore armor gear will become available without sacrificing other stats to obtain it. At the this point Mongoose/Executioner becomes at least as viable, if not more so than double mongoose depending on how much ignore armor you have access to. That's what I came up with D: | |||||||||||
| #7154 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Amagnus |
I'm still trying to understand how to compare two similar pieces of gear. I completely understand EP but wonder what other factors are important when EP between two pieces is close (and in fact what close means in that respect). Here are two pieces of gear I have:
[The Master's Treads] This item has about 111 EP. In addition, 191 Armor (Leather) along with +19 Stamina. [Boots of the Endless Hunt] This item has slightly less EP than the 1st at around 93. However, it's a mail item with 535 Armor. Stamina is the same as the 1st at +19 with +23 Intellect and 6 MP5. So, [The Master's Treads] has more EP but overall is it a superior piece of gear? I don't have mana issues too often but it seems like the additional armor has some benefit when I'm a bit squishy at this point. In sum, should one always base gear selection factors on EP or are there times when other factors (like armor, intellect, MP5, etc.) should be considered when EP is close. Obviously if two pieces of gear have the same EP these additional factors would make one piece superior. How big of a difference in EP is necessary before one would pass up these additional features? Thanks. | |||||||||||
| #7155 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Wraithlin |
Do you die alot ?
If the answer is yes, the stamina will help you. If the answer is no the stamina has 0 net worth. | |||||||||||
| #7156 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Neithan |
I was thinking of taking the T6 boots/belt/wrists (stupid vashj refusing to drop the belt), which T6 would you suggest to get to get 4pc set bonus? Seems like Shoulders so far, am I right?
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| #7157 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | falonub |
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yeah on page 276 Myul did a very nice AEP evaluation for all the pieces, and shoulders + the 70 AP bonus they give would yield 2 less AEP I believe it was, so they're looking like the best to wear to pick up the 4pc. The post can be found here: http://elitistjerks.com/633050-post6916.html sidenote: [Band of Ruinous Delight] dropped for Vis Maior off the eredar twins a few hours ago. Band of Ruinous Delight - Items - WOWDB Very Similar stats to the Illidan ring; with crit rating instead of hit rating Using imported "High Settings" on enhancer on PTR, I got ~178.AEP from the ring. Illidan ring being ~156, and the new JC ring being ~172 | |||||||||||
| #7158 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | LazyJoe |
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If you have a very small difference (like <5%) between two item's EP then you can take into account 'comfort' stats like stamina or intel. As for mp5 since the recent changes to water shield it is now more worthless than ever. And if you pull aggro a few armor is not gonna save you (except maybe on karazhan trash), if you want increased survability dodge (and therefore agility) is a better life saver (I recently 'tanked' void reaver for the last 3% without dying thanks to my high dodge rate, a single hit would have totaly killed me even with tons of hp and full mail gear). | |||||||||||
| #7159 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Aksing |
Hey guys, i've been playing WoW for 2.5 years now and have spent 2.2 of those years playing a rogue in end game raiding. Combat Swords was my bread and butter. But a few months ago i decided to reroll enhancement shaman.
I was sick of not having one in the melee group. So i did some research, and ofc used this thread to get info ![]() I am happy to say i'm loving it, and now that my gear has pretty much caught up to the rest of the guilds my own personal damage has gone up alot, and the melee dps overall in the raid is stunning. So i guess thanks for converting me to enhancement :p And you'll be seeing aot more of me, as i was always a bit of a forum whore on my rogue, and seeing as this looks like THE place to discuss enhancement shaman stuff, i'll be an avid reader / contributor from now on. My plans as far as Sunwell go are pretty much the same as most of you. Belt, Bracers Boots & Shoulders of T6 then the leather stuff. Really is sick gear. And finally some enhancement weapons. Shame they're fists again. Would like to see some axes. | |||||||||||
| #7160 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Amagnus |
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Yo's simulator was definitely helpful and re-reading the hit rating portion of the OP helped to make more sense. Thanks | |||||||||||
| #7161 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | rava |
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Do you really want to bog yourself down with 3 more items on top of that? -4(belt)+13(bracers)-14(shoulders)+6(boots)+68(69) vs -13(bracers)+58(shoulders)+4(belt)-6(boots)(43), is 26 ep worth 3 item slots when you can pick up 1 and be a mere 26ep behind? Almost every other slot is 50-100 ep better and unless you plan on picking up the entire zone uncontested. Use some common sense and see where your bigger upgrades are before you commit to 3 slots for 26 ep. | |||||||||||
| #7162 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Stopokingme |
Well, they're also from the first 3 bosses in Sunwell, which will be farmed quite a bit before the final gate opens. At 3 tokens each boss it won't be that long before they become cheap, barring extremely crappy drop luck. Oh and minor nitpick, you forgot the bit less then 70 ep from the 4 set bonus.
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| #7163 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | frozndevl |
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18 * .25 = 4.5 which is about the difference in the DPS you observed. This looks about right to me. | |||||||||||
| #7164 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Aratheon |
Hey guys.
I have a question about Armor Penetration: Do you have any information about wether or not the buff from [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner] do stack? I've heard a rumor that Armor Penetration selfbuffs do not stack but cannot find any post, that would confirm this. | |||||||||||
| #7165 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | falonub |
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![]() edit after gehenna's post, yeah I took it at face value assuming both buffs up meaning both stack, but I'd assume so, and I hope so D: Last edited by falonub : 02/18/08 at 1:17 AM. | |||||||||||
| #7166 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Gehenna |
That isn't exactly an answer to his question. My nature totem stacks with hunter NR Buff, but the effects do not stack.
In addition, i heard similar rumors, but about mongoose. I've been told mongoose haste does not stack with haste from passive abilities, but I've only heard this from one person. Last edited by Gehenna : 02/17/08 at 9:32 PM. | |||||||||||
| #7167 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
The assumption is that it's going to be easier to get tokens than specific nonset drops, since each T6 and Sunwell boss will drop 3 set tokens/kill in 2.4.
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| #7168 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Neithan |
Correct. It would be easier to get (as our rogues stated, that they are going for new items as well), plus its just theorycraft as we did not see any new boots/bracers/belt from SWP so far.
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| #7169 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Snowcold |
Hello there,
im a bit new to this forum and recently fell in love with enhancement shaman ( thanks to this post partly) Just started to gear up and im Currently using [Malchazeen] as a offhand and [Fool's Bane] as a main hand. With this nice AV weekend got enough honor to buy a new main hand/offhand and i was hesitating between the gladiator S1 [Gladiator's Pummeler] / [Gladiator's Cleaver] or on the other hand [Gladiator's Right Ripper]you'll notice a slight difference between them since the fist weapon has a higher+ max damage but a lower min damage then the others but can only be used in main hand | |||||||||||
| #7170 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | h4rr0d |
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| #7171 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Asirae |
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off-hand: [Malchazeen] I'm trying to compile a list of 'best' enhancement shaman weapons, but it is a work in progress: Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman I'd love to see a veteran EJ forum member here list weapons so I can compare and tweak my list. Last edited by Asirae : 02/18/08 at 4:23 AM. | |||||||||||
| #7172 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Wraithlin | ||||||||||||
| #7173 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Snowcold |
Tbh i have read the post, i just happened to have respec 2 days ago and didin't have much of a choice weapon wyse...
EDIT* took the ripper seems better according to your website thanks again for the help. Last edited by Snowcold : 02/18/08 at 4:37 AM. | |||||||||||
| #7174 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Raut |
This doesn't matter. And the OP clearly states that you should run the sim to find this out for yourself.
Maybe the OP should have a "myth buster" section where these types of things is discarded? | |||||||||||
| #7175 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Illundai |
Honestly, it doesn't matter if it were in the OP or not. People will still ask these stupid questions =P.
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| #7251 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Devnex |
Eh, I'd almost prefer they kill the haste itemization budget and throw back on some stamina. I find I'm one of the squishiest melee classes in almost any fight with environmental damage and losing 120+ stamina isn't my idea of a good time.
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| #7252 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | rava |
I'm pretty sure it was a PVP change so stamina being readded isn't in the cards. With 0 stam people are less inclined to stack 4 piece PVP/PVE bonuses which are ridiculous in some cases.
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| #7253 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Devnex |
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I'd be hard pressed to use more than one of these stamina-less items in what I've seen of current sunwell fights. The dps potential is obvious but there's not a single fight so far that the loss of over 1k hp isn't a big deal. | |||||||||||
| #7254 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | BoinKlasik |
Do you really want NO stam on your tier pieces? Our optimal setup is already buffered by the high stam on t6 items when we take all the OTHER items that have no stam, can we really stay alive in raids with 3 more slots missing stam entirely? Dont get me wrong I would LOVE these kind of stats on all the items, but stam is an important stat nonetheless.
edit: what devnix said Last edited by BoinKlasik : 02/20/08 at 8:00 PM. | |||||||||||
| #7255 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Paradox |
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| #7256 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
Wear stamina gear for fights that require it, wear the other stuff on any fight that doesn't. I don't see how that's hard to understand. At any rate, a discussion on lack of stamina on gear would fit best in another thread where all the classes can simultaneously complain about it, rather than in here.
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| #7257 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Ardonomus |
[e] Beaten to it by Malan.
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| #7258 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Murk |
So I am having a bit of a quandry: Take crit over +hit, or play it safe on my gear choices and try to take minimal hit losses.
This is my explanation: I am sitting at 119 +hit, but only 26.16% crit (talented, unbuffed) once I get my BT rep trinket. As with many situations, there are various obvious gear upgrade choices which would be easy to make if not for the fact that most suggestions on the upgrade sites (maxdps, lootrank) are so normalized. I could take, for example, Shoulders of the Hidden Predator but would sustain a loss of 20 +hit (bringing me to 99 hit, but giving me obvious improvements over Pauldrons of Primal Fury. INSTEAD OF this, I could opt for Skyshatter Pauldrons with an estimated 3 DPS loss from the Eyeball Happy Funbags. Would the +hit loss be worth it to get the Shoulders of the Hidden Predator, or should I play it safe with my +hit and opt for the Skyshatter? | |||||||||||
| #7259 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Yuma | ||||||||||||
| #7260 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Othieus |
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A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed." Source: Formulas:Expertise - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft One of the two is wrong; unless theres something I'm missing. Which is quite possible as well. | |||||||||||
| #7261 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Devnex |
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Edit: Its illogical to get raiding gear that you'd be foolish to use in 90% of the fights in the instance you get it in. Last edited by Devnex : 02/20/08 at 8:59 PM. Reason: Clarification | |||||||||||
| #7262 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Rob |
Basically, we are getting interesting choices to make on our gear now. Previously there was always one clearly best item in slot, now there are going to be multiple items, and you will have to make a judgment call "is gaining 20 EP worth losing 30 STA?" Personally, I think that's OK.
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| #7263 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Murk | ||||||||||||
| #7264 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Joy |
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I agree. No one forces you to use the gear all the time, or at all, there are already some very common no stam items; the best pieces in those slots; neck, belt (best mail belt), and boots. So surely is it no different to now you can choose the best in slot (by a fair way) or settle for second best with a chunk of stam. Or mix and match. I currently have no items with 0 stam and just picked up one of the s3 axes which puts me around 11300 HP buffed (using a STR/spi food), so I will definitely be using these new items, additionally I will also gain stam when I replace my offhand either from a Mounting Vengeance (22) or another s3 axe (30). I am a Tauren though ^_^ ps I am surprised to see people complaining since it was expertise added and we have all been dying a little inside every time a WF or a SS is dodged. | |||||||||||
| #7265 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | oglas |
Ooooh nice, when I first saw T6 changes on those 3 items my first thought was "NAGA PLS!"... Seemed a bit drastic, although I'm quite happy because someone obviously taught Blizzard developers what a shaman brother needs.
Not gonna complain too much, it's really nice and welcome change, although they could have done it by changing ALL T6 items and replacing mp5 to lets say -armor, and just taking some stat points from stamina and converting them to DPS stats, instead of nuking stamina out and putting huge amounts of unnecessary expertise (Orcs benefit A LOT less from these, if the cap is what we think it is). But well, cant wait until i get my hands on those :-P Last edited by oglas : 02/23/08 at 3:45 AM. | |||||||||||
| #7266 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rounced |
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Anyone have any thoughts on how to get it to work? I don't want to use a castsequence since there are always times when you don't want to spam purge but I love the idea of being able to use the binding to purge when stormstrike is on cooldown. | |||||||||||
| #7267 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Deadstar |
Interesting tidbit about the new PTR build:
The single target destruction of totems returns mana for the same amount you would get from Totemic Recall. Single target doesn't activate the GCD and you can also destroy totems in Ghost Wolf without leaving form. If it goes live untouched and we can figure out the command for manually destroying totems, you can probably macro it to work like Totemic Recall without wasting a GCD. | |||||||||||
| #7268 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Ridan |
With these 3 new pieces being awesome, I guess it would be great to go and get another piece of T6 to get the 4 pieces bonus. While this piece won't be a best in slot, we would need a 70 EP difference to make the change worth it.
If I go with this, I would probably take the gloves. | |||||||||||
| #7269 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Ardonomus |
I've been pondering which T6 item to grab now, before this nice change I though I would grab the helm and shoulders (due to the fact I'll most likely never see CVoS because of guild item-priorities, and I'd need 2xT6 since I have the Vashj belt). However, after this nice change all the T6 items are best-in-slot at their current state.
So.. to figure out the last piece, I've added 70EP to that T6 piece, and I came up with shoulders being a good slot to go for. I'm a leatherworker though, and Gloves of Immortal Dusk end up as the best-in-slot gloves for me which is why I'm hesitant to take the T6 gloves. T6+70EP = ~248EP vs the GoID at ~308EP. However, the best-in-game shoulders at the moment are the Demontooth Shoulderpads at ~275EP, T6+70EP=266EP. So that's just a 9EP loss compared to a much higher loss in the other slots. Pacifier's EP chart There's the values I've used to calculate it, if that's any use for anyone else. | |||||||||||
| #7270 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | daruu |
Hello!
This is the first post for me here(been a viewer for a long time though) I decided to try out enhance after being ele and resto for a while now and its really fun! The thing is i dont know too much about enhancement specc (or melee in general) and the first post didnt really help me answer my questions. ATM i have 1178ap, 150 hit rating (+ talents) and 22.48% crit This is oc course without totems or any buffs, in addition my gear isnt really enchanted and im using green gems Most of it are from kara/heroics, but got some items from ssc/tk aswell So, i was wondering if so much hit rating is needed? or can i sacrifice a bit for more ap/crit? (Sorry if this has been answered before, but my quick search couldnt find it) - Ballzofsteel | |||||||||||
| #7271 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | LazyJoe |
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| #7272 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | daruu |
Yes i have seen that
So basicly i shouldnt care about hit rating at all then, and rather go for crit and strength... (this seems a bit weird to me, i am still getting a lot of misses) And what stats should a enhance shaman have at ssc/tk level then? (ap/crit) | |||||||||||
| #7273 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Pitbuller |
To daaru.
Loot Rank OP shows tons of tools how you can improve your dps/gear. Just learn use those. This isnt best place to ask what color shirt you should wearing. Allthought there is lots of infomation what you just have to read. | |||||||||||
| #7274 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Raut |
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| #7275 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | death_Phobos | ||||||||||||
| #7451 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Camplord |
Thanks for that nice and very meaningful comment on the grammar i dont even care about, hope it made you feel good.
I did read that under 1.1.1 but there wasnt any real wf vs flame but nwm. | |||||||||||
| #7452 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Daler |
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And the mods take grammar, punctualization, and capitalization (among other things) seriously, so you may want to consider revising your posts. | |||||||||||
| #7453 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rhaegal |
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Flametongue is wrong. Fast weapons are wrong. Fast + flametongue is only a placeholder if for some reason you have a ridiculously high DPS fast off-hand, and your only other choice is a crappy green lvl 68 axe from the AH. If you're outdamaging people using 2 slow weapons with WF, then they either don't know how to gear and you somehow do, or for whatever reason they aren't DPSing to their potential. And yeah. Part of the beauty of the EJ forums is that it's not the WoW forums. Please don't be lazy about your typing if you want people to respect your opinion here. | |||||||||||
| #7454 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Binkenstein |
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I'll latex everything into one post shortly. | |||||||||||
| #7455 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Tulaugu |
I wrote two questions on the previous page but I think they got spammed away a little bit. Is it possible to get some view from you guys on those questions. I'm waiting for the awnsers to move on with changing my shaman from pvp to pve and I'd value some input on those last two points from the elitist jerks community.
Thank you, -Tulaugu- | |||||||||||
| #7456 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Rhaegal |
This thread has a lot of debate between the two different "main" enhancement specs. There's quite a bit of info there if you're willing to wade through it... I recommend at least skimming. Quick summary, as I remember it, though: the Enh/elem build has the potential for more theoretical DPS, but all-but-prevents twisting, and the theoretical DPS advantage relies entirely on being able to shock every cooldown. Any delay shrinks the gap, and enough delay puts Enh/resto back on top. Enh/resto is the "safe" build, and I think still probably the most popular.
RED is difficult to model because it scales so much with crit and AP. I'd be impressed if anyone could give you any solid numbers that have meaning and aren't a complicated formula taking those two variables as input. Run Yo!'s sim at your current gear level with and without the RED effect. | |||||||||||
| #7457 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Vernichter |
The discussion of Enh/Ele vs. Enh/Resto has been carried over to another thread here. Without the option of totem twisting in 2.4, Enh/Ele should pull ahead slightly. The testing is still somewhat inconclusive, though.
As for the meta slot, searching through this thread reveals a handful of times where the conversation has come up, and the answer depends on your gear level and stat distribution. The RED is unquestionably the best meta gem slot, and it will provide better returns at higher crit rates. In various places the value of the RED has been tallied to be between 50 and 75 AP. On these forums it is customary not to sign your posts. As to sifting through a daunting 200 page thread, the search feature can be very helpful. I'll certainly conceed that for your specific prompts a search is not immediate for results, but it is certainly a good place to start. | |||||||||||
| #7458 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Tulaugu |
Ah okay. Thank you. I'll dig throght the pages and find it.
If there are 2 specs that are considered best but different, wouldn't it be an idea to add that in the first/main post? That would help a lot and make it easyer for people in the future. RED calculations are indeed very difficult, that's why I couldn't figure it out aswell probably. At the moment I'm calculating 30 ep's for a meta socket (T5 level). 24 for the agi and 6 for the 3% crit damage. Is that realistic? It would help me a lot for when I'm comparing things like T5 helm with Grimgrin Faceguard (ZA). -Tulaugu- [edit] it seems there was a nice response when I was writing this post. Thanks. | |||||||||||
| #7459 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Stoical |
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I don't know what Ugdum's PvE set looks like, but with that gear disparity, you had better be outdpsing all the enhancement shaman in your guild, even making a massive mistake like equipping a fast OH with FT. | |||||||||||
| #7460 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
6 EP for +3% crit damage? That's way low.
Use Yo's sim to calculate your EP values WITHOUT RED. Write down the DPS and the DPS per AP. Next, run the sim without calculating EP (cos it's faster), but add RED. Subtract your total DPS WITH RED from the DPS you wrote down without it. Divide that by your DPS per AP without. That's the EP of RED's crit effect. I got 58 EP when I evaluated it for my own gear. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/27/08 at 5:24 PM. | |||||||||||
| #7461 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | hozzer |
I have not seen anything yet that indicates that totem twisting would not be possible in 2.4. Can you point me to a source for this information?
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| #7462 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Mox |
It is still possible to do it on the PTRs, so one would assume will still be possible after 2.4. Unless blizz change it between now and then (possible).
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| #7463 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
Yes I'll get around to it eventually.
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| #7464 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Draenorm |
Has this been posted yet? Flametongue now reduces healing effects by 50% for 4 seconds when applied. Toughness now reduces the duration of movement impairing effects on you by 10/20/30/40/50%.
Last edited by Draenorm : 02/27/08 at 11:52 PM. | |||||||||||
| #7465 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Binkenstein |
It's being discussed on IRC as we speak.
The tooltips haven't been updated though. | |||||||||||
| #7466 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Febreze |
erm wtf?
Heres a summary Screenshot, the forum posts i found em in are below...
![]() hope the FT is as interesting to you all as it is to me, ill have to dig into my bank for malchazeen. However the SR change is ish WoW Forums -> *NEW* Huge buffs on the PTR WoW Forums -> New change on PTR | |||||||||||
| #7467 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Draenorm |
Crappy change for shamanistic rage, I guess the devs felt it needed to be more balanced since we now have a much easier time escaping with instant ghostwolf and 50% duration on snares. An interesting bug with flametongue is it's actually increasing healing done to the target.
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| #7468 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
We must be come that which we most despise, in order to reach our ultimate form.
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| #7469 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ChaguraED |
what's old is new again
I picture a bunch of shaman dusting off that old Gladiator's Hacker they were ridiculed for buying so long ago.
Least it'll serve them in PvP. | |||||||||||
| #7470 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | falonub |
Totem GCD reduced to 1second.
on mmo | |||||||||||
| #7471 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | oglas |
New changes are weird. The totem GCD thing I approve of, was REALLY really needed in PVP, 1.5 sec GCD meant 6-7 seconds lost on dropping the essential totems, I wont even go into time loss if you had a rogue on your back while doing it. Its going to be a lot easier now.
The shamanistic rage thing I don't like at all. For one, it was great as a damage reducer in PVE, since it had long duration and some good timing on it would help a lot in overall survivability (RoS phase3, just as an example). In PVP it was even better, I loved my "shieldwall" macro (1h+shield+sham rage), not to mention that if you waited for warlock to put all his nice DOTs on you, then use sham rage, together with resilience it would almost make his DOTs do half damage. Also, its another problem for threat sensitive fights with the new changes to SR. Before, gaining full mana during 30 seconds of SR meant increasing your TPS around 10-15% during 30 seconds, now it will become a 15 second 30% increase (those numbers are a rough estimate). Couple of lucky WF procs and lucky SR procs - HUGE threat burst. Dunno what to think of FT yet, I'll wait until I try it out in arena... | |||||||||||
| #7472 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Mulgero |
FT change should be quite good for arena's maybe bg's too. Gonna love that fast dagger from ZA since FT doesn't loose that much damage compared to WF when target isn't 3+ level mob. Plus we might have some extra raid utility if bosses/trash aren't immune to it. Also question remains whether it stacks with MS or not.
Imp. gw, toughness (not sure if this still is so good at all), where to get enough points for these? Shamanistic rage change blows but shorter time to gain mana is great and I suppose now SR being immune to dispel 30sec is way too long pvpwise. | |||||||||||
| #7473 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | everwatch |
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Instant GW + 50% slow duration decresed = OP fyi. You can kite anything except for a druid. | |||||||||||
| #7474 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | falonub |
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| #7475 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Disquette |
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I can see escaping: Priests Rogues without cooldowns Some locks Paladins And two of those were already on the list. I am severely underwhelmed with our mobility changes. This half-assed way of going about our problems sucks. Just give us the stupid OP druid ability, or give us a stupid OP warrior ability, or a stupid OP rogue ability. Getting it halfsies is a poorly though out move that further increases our role as a chance based class. With a warrior or a hunter, you know you're going to get that MS affect onto someone, due to ranged application or charge/intercept. With a shaman, it's still a crapshoot. | |||||||||||
| #7476 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Squidfury |
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In GW, if you are hamstrung, and they are frost shocked, you will move much faster than they will. That said, you still arent going to get away from a warrior for long. As enhancement it would be better to just face them. I can see forcing a rogue to sprint, but I wouldnt run too much from a rogue. Probably not worth trying to get them to blow sprint. Anyway, its not an escape mechanism anyway ( at least reliably). What it does allow ,is us to catch every single class. Noone can escape. Its not a magical fix to the class in and of itself, but its a major buff in my opinion. The change to flametongue definately makes us much more viable in 2v2. The most successful teams as enhancement seem to be dual DPS. Adding in a healing debuff makes that much better. Enhancement/frost mage will benefit greatly from this. | |||||||||||
| #7477 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
I am uncertain if twisting has been removed from 2.4; if it hasn't, then a 1s GCD for totems is a big deal for totem twisters.
Unfortunately, a 50% SR nerf means twisting is going to be that much harder. In fact, I'd wager that's one reason for the nerf. Why change the WFT mechanic when you can just make it prohibitively expensive to exploit? Twisting is more valuable to a raid than shocking with a resto spec; it's not better than shocking AND striking. | |||||||||||
| #7478 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | McMullet |
My question is regarding Executioner and Cloth Bosses.
I know we are still preferred to have Mongoose/Mongoose as stated in the main page. However has anyone done any tests on bosses that are considered "Caster" Bosses (Solarian, Kael, Rage, etc?) For myself I sport about 1620 AP, 29% crit and 140 Hit with about 120 Armor Ignore. This is my regular gear with Mongoose/Mongoose. This is what I use for most boss fights. Now when I have been doing the cloth bosses I have been dropping to about 1500 AP and 28% crit, but keeping the 140 Hit and also hitting 520 unbuffed AI. In this case I am seeing some pretty impressive DPS numbers especially when executioner goes off. (Mongoose / Exec) So my question is... Has there been any simulations run which would support Executioner as the preferred imbue given a cloth boss and a healthy dose of AI already? | |||||||||||
| #7479 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Raut |
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| #7480 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Kyuki |
It's rediculous how fast you get a full mana bar now.
![]() As for the latest PTR changes, I really think they are good. If they are truly trying to balance this game, there is no point in giving us someting "OP" as what Disquette suggest for example. I think these latest changes will make enh shammys Very viable in 2's and 3's, with most DPS classes/specs. Going to be interesting to see how it pans out really. The SR duration "nerf" is very well needed for the latest PvP changes I Think. I would hope for a revert on that, but I guess it's only fair? The Totem GCD was about time! I think this will generally make life as any shaman spec during raids alot better, and not as frustrating as it can be now at times. Also very needed for PvP. Good change overall ![]() *edit* I know this thread is not about PvP, but I hope it's ok to discuss PTR changes here anyway. | |||||||||||
| #7481 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Mindrila |
Hi there,
I'm checking this thread nearly daily but most time as reader only. Now I have a small question, for which I hope I will not be flamed. It's about weapon expertise and the AEP value. There is this necklace available for heroic badges: +48 Stamina +22 Hitrating +21 weapon expertise To get AEP values i normally use Enhancer to just show me in the tooltip. But it has bugged me why this necklace is performing so miserable. Enhancer showed me an AEP value of 36.3. My current weights for hitrating and weapon expertise are 1.65 and 3.1 (got with Yo's simulator) So it's rather easy to calculate 22*1.65+21*3.1=101.4 Am I right or am I missing something? The Enhancer value is just the hitrating (22*1.65=36.3) So Enhancer is bugged and has to be fixed for correct evaluation of weapon expertise. If your not telling me I went somewhere wrong, I'll have a look at the code. PS: If my English is quite bad, sorry I'm not a native speaker but I'm trying to do my best ![]() | |||||||||||
| #7482 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | drats |
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| #7483 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
Sounds like you already found the answer, its a problem with that mod.
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| #7484 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Seidule |
Has anybody done any math to determine what professions would be best at an endgame level?
I'm thinking enchanting (2x ring enchants) and JC (+24 ap gem, etc). Any thoughts? | |||||||||||
| #7485 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Kyuki |
12str is better from a raiding PoV. Enchanting rings is always nice, and will probably benefit you more than most other profs.
The margins are so small however (imo) that I would just go for whatever you think is the most fun/profitable. Good thing that JC and enchanting is profitable when used correctly ![]() | |||||||||||
| #7486 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | frozndevl |
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| #7487 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Disquette |
I'll readily admit I'm not a hardcore, or even decent, pvp'er. My issue, in a theoretical sense, is that the changes seem to be akin to moving the branches 4" away from Tantalus instead of 8". But I think from here on I'll stop commenting until I can actually try it.
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| #7488 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
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However, Leatherworking allows access to drums of battle, which is the equivalent of 20 haste rating. 36.4 EP 2x Ring enchant is worth 8 STR 8 AGI that no other profession gets. 31.12 EP JC offers a single 12 STR (vs 10 STR from a BCS) gem. 4 EP. In summary: BS/Leatherworking will get you geared a little easier. If getting gear is not an issue, Leatherworking/Enchanting will give you a 67 EP edge. | |||||||||||
| #7489 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Ardonomus |
Come 2.4 my values show at least two LW items that are top of the line, so LW still goes strong in my opinon. I regret spending the time and money leveling BS now though.
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| #7490 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Vernichter |
Seidule, this post from earlier in the thread gives an approximate break-down of the newly introduced Sunwell gear. Note that it was made before the updates to the T6 wrists, boots, and belt. I don't see any way for enchanting to beat out leatherworking in terms of end-game return. [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] is very close to best in slot, and [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] are by far the best in slot. Add the benefit of drums and leatherworking should be a clear best profession for the Sunwell.
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| #7491 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Illundai |
I'm on PTR right now, twisting is still possible and it's ridiculously easy now with the new GCD. We're raiding Felmyst tonight, so we'll see how the new Shamanistic Rage works out but I'm expecting a similiar, perhaps little less mana regained from it. They had to shorten the duration when they made it undispellable, it would've been ridiculously OP in PvP.
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| #7492 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | frozndevl |
One thing I would be interested to see is if this new FT debuff will have an impact on PVE. Admittedly, I don't do much high end raiding, but if the MS effect also works on NPCs then it might be viable in that situation as well. This would reduce our overall output in dps, but wouldn't this fill our main role of "enhancing" the rest of the raid in specific fights? Throwing a 1.5 speed OH with flametongue into the defaults of Yo!'s sim reduces overall DPS by about 50.
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| #7493 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
There aren't many fights that require a healing debuff though, and most that do can also be interrupted. Yah you can get 5 seconds of reduced healing on Najentus, maybe some lowered healing on Anetheron. That's about it for T6 content really.
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| #7494 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | Yakout |
This is actually not true. There is, alas, no JC-only +Str gem (JC BoP gems); we must as usual settle for AP. However, that's not the only perk we have from JC pre-2.4; we also have [Stone of Blades], which when stuck in the right yellow socket (e.g., [Insidious Bands]) can outperform a BCS, counts as a yellow stone for RED activation, and doesn't take a CS to cut.
2.4 shall also bring the [Choker of Endless Nightmares]-with-Stamina, [Hard Khorium Choker] (another fine candidate for socketing a SoB), as well as [Figurine - Shadowsong Panther] for those lower in progression or to whom the RNG has been particularly cruel in terms of trinket drops. Last edited by Yakout : 02/28/08 at 1:04 PM. | |||||||||||
| #7495 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | bruster |
Has anyone done the path PvP wise for 2.4? That is if the changes last night will stay that way.
Would it be better to use a fast OH and FT now with the healing debuff? Or would it still be smarter to stay with the slow off hand with FT, plus if you're against dps team you could keep WF on the OH. | |||||||||||
| #7496 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | ◊ Malan |
There's a pvp thread dedicated to that, direct your reading there.
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| #7497 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | Experiment |
Here's a quick link to the Enhancement PvP thread, it's linked to where the weapon speed and FT was mentioned with regards to the new patch...there's a lot of other little tid-bits on using a fast weapon and FT running around in many, many other locations.
[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ? Conversation on weapon speeds looks to have started around post 366, no for sure answer yet. Looks like it will generally be up to personal prefference. | |||||||||||
| #7498 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | drats |
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@Seidule: When 2.4 hits I'm guessing JC/Leatherworking will be the best combination. Leatherworking for Drums and BOP gear, and JC for the SWP neck and epic BOP gems. Note: this is speculation until we've seen the full Sunwell loot table. [e] Here's the JC neck I was talking about: Hard Khorium Choker - Items - World of Warcraft. There's also a nice haste ring, but I don't think it's better than the MH one: Hard Khorium Band - Items - World of Warcraft Last edited by drats : 02/28/08 at 2:51 PM. | |||||||||||
| #7499 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 | • Disquette |
First: THANK YOU Hedin! <3 for the combat log help in the mod.
Second: The two different events - WF Mainhand Proc and WF Offhand Proc have separate event IDs in the combatlog. Now it will be a lot easier if people want to track stuff like that. (Note, I can't confirm what I just wrote, but so far event 33750 is always an offhand WF proc, and event 25504 is always a mainhand windfury. So, statistically that looks like a good bet so far). I'm having a lot of fun with the new combat log stuff. Hedin Rocks. | |||||||||||
| #7500 | Source | Posted onPatch 2.3.3 Edited onPatch 2.3.3 | • Toots Hepcat |
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Along with the +24 AP vs the BCS, which with kings is 22 AP (benefit 2 AP), total endgame benefit of JC gems: 3 EP With the T6 EP values, [Hard Khorium Choker] is 26 EP better than [Clutch of Demise], both are better than [Choker of Endless Nightmares]. So JC is worth about 29 EP in the very top of the endgame; still be better off with LW/Enchanting. However, at the not-quite-the-endgame, it could be pretty valuable -- the Hard Khorium neck is 55 EP better than the best neck in Black Temple. Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/28/08 at 3:13 PM. |