Post #SourceDatesAuthorPost
#1SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
◊ Malan
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I


This thread will soon be closed. All the information has been moved to the Theorycraft Think Tank at Shaman: Enhancement.

Please update your links and note that the wiki is not to be used for questions/discussion. Post only corrections or change requests there. Discussion and questions ("guys should I use double syphon???") should go in a relevant thread here in the forums.


Further discussion of Enhancement topics should start in new threads (ie, a thread about gear, a thread about windfury mechanics, etc etc).

Last edited by Malan : 04/10/08 at 11:16 AM.
#2SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Bravo!

I think Lootzor and Pawn work the same way: you give each stat a "weight" value; large weight means the stat is more important.

I'm more comfortable working with small numbers than with the 100s, but as long a the ratios are the same, I think you're good.

For someone at the Kara/Gruul/Mag level (2200 AP, 25% Crit, 22% Hit), I believe Tornhoof and I agree that the lootzor values are:

Str = 1.1
Agi = 1.0
AP = 0.5
CR = 1.0
HR = 0.7

In fact, here's a link to that search in Lootzor: http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

Disquette's values were a little different, mainly because used a broader range of stats and averaged across them all.

As a matter of style/utility, I'd think you'd put these at the top of your post rather than at the bottom, but that's a pretty minor comment.


I'm not sure where it is, but you might want to add a sentence or two showing why INT and MP5 are wasted on our gear--the weakness of our DPM, basically.
#3SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Aett
Very good post.

I would add the GM/HW one-handers in the list of available blue offhands. I use the axe currently because heroic bosses despise dropping weapons for me. (Got exalted with CE trying to get an offhand..)
#4SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You can use the enchants to make up for deficiencies in your gear if you need it – Mongoose provides 4.8% crit per proc (and stacks with double procs on MH/OH), Crusader provides 60 Strength (120 AP) at lvl 70 per proc, and Potency is a constant +40 Strength (80 AP).
Perhaps you were referring to having both weapons enchanted, but Enchant Weapon Potency is only +20 Strength (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22553).
OH itemization is fairly poor early on, with a few more choices available in TK and BT. If you are not yet in those zones the best choices for OH is a 2.6 speed Gladiator weapon from Arenas, a crafted Runic Hammer (2.4 speed) or a blue one-hand weapon available in several heroic instances (Auchenai Crypts last boss drops a 2.6 speed one-hand axe). Failing that, get yourself a green 2.6 speed off the Auction House.
Just to add to it, the 2.6 blue OHs drop in Heroic UB from Hungarfen, Heroic Old Hillsbrad from Lieutenant Drake, and Heroic Crypts like you mentioned; the level 70 blue HWL weapons are also 71.7 DPS.

Good post.
#5SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2The Dood
Thank the maker!

I was getting headache's trying to de-crypt the Itemization thread
#6SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ghando
Might be worthwhile to dispel some common misconceptions and set in stone a couple things, such as:
--Windfury Weapon suffers neither from the OH 50% penalty for OH procs, nor the dual-wield 24% miss rate. This means that (assuming identical weapons), MH and OH procs are identical.
--Haste Rating is not bad for Enhance Shamans. There was some comically faulty theorycrafting on Blizzard's Shaman forums a while back claiming that Haste Rating actually lowered DPS. This is not the case. At all. Haste Rating will increase DPS substantially, as for any melee class with a high % of damage being white. However, Haste Rating suffers from diminishing returns as it increases and pushes WF procs closer together.
#7SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Gwaihir
Some links to the only non-arena offhands until you hit Al'ar:

Bloodskull Destroyer
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28210

Boggspine Knuckles
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27747

and The Harvester of Souls
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27872
#8SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Oops on the Potency value. That was me copying from someone else's post.
Updating with some of this stuff now.
#9SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Ghando View Post
Might be worthwhile to dispel some common misconceptions and set in stone a couple things, such as:
--Windfury Weapon suffers neither from the OH 50% penalty for OH procs, nor the dual-wield 24% miss rate. This means that (assuming identical weapons), MH and OH procs are identical..
Well, the Windfury bonus AP is the same for each hand yes, but the procs are most definitely not the same since the OH weapon damage is reduced by 50%. I had already included a statement about this in the original post though, its in the WF section at the top.
Haste was mentioned already as well.

Edit - Can someone provide the data on Gems (8 Str and the 4Str/4Crit ones) and the meta gems of choice?
#10SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Phro
This may sound stupid but I thought I'd ask anyway; but ever since the WF-3second-cooldown nerf, has anyone tried not applying WF to their off-hand and using the WF totem to apply the WF to the off-hand? I know its less WF dmg, but maybe it out-weighs the internal cooldown of applying an off-hand self-WF?

If you cant even do this kindly disregard my post, I havent been enhance in awhile.
#11SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Phro View Post
This may sound stupid but I thought I'd ask anyway; but ever since the WF-3second-cooldown nerf, has anyone tried not applying WF to their off-hand and using the WF totem to apply the WF to the off-hand? I know its less WF dmg, but maybe it out-weighs the internal cooldown of applying an off-hand self-WF?

If you cant even do this kindly disregard my post, I havent been enhance in awhile.
Oy. I totally almost put this into the post and then I thought. "nah, I think people are done asking this".

.... and so it shall go into the post.

No, do not use WF totem instead of WF Weapon. Its not nearly the same thing.
#12SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Phro
Haha, thanks! I haven't been reading the shammy-enh posts since I went resto at 70 and then ele eventually. Very good post none-the-less.

Btw im a retard...I thought WF totem buffed both weapons...stupid question! Having said that, if it was possible to self-imbued WF and totem OH WF, maybe it would be better...but who knows.

Thanks again!
#13SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Pater View Post
Bravo!

I think Lootzor and Pawn work the same way: you give each stat a "weight" value; large weight means the stat is more important.

I'm more comfortable working with small numbers than with the 100s, but as long a the ratios are the same, I think you're good.

For someone at the Kara/Gruul/Mag level (2200 AP, 25% Crit, 22% Hit), I believe Tornhoof and I agree that the lootzor values are:

Str = 1.1
Agi = 1.0
AP = 0.5
CR = 1.0
HR = 0.7

In fact, here's a link to that search in Lootzor: http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

Disquette's values were a little different, mainly because used a broader range of stats and averaged across them all.

As a matter of style/utility, I'd think you'd put these at the top of your post rather than at the bottom, but that's a pretty minor comment.


I'm not sure where it is, but you might want to add a sentence or two showing why INT and MP5 are wasted on our gear--the weakness of our DPM, basically.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but does this mean 1 CR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR?
#14SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Yeah, that's right. "Equivalences" are just inverted "weights." For equivalencies, you're just saying "I would be equally happy getting 1 CR or 1.43 HR." For weights, you're saying "HR is 0.7 times as good as [1.0] CR."

I really like the "weight" system myself, because it allows for quick input into lootzor, and it also conforms to the AEP paradigm. You can think of those weights as AEP for us (since Agi is 1.0 as well) or CritEP if you prefer. (Technically, AGI is 0.97 = 22.1*1.1/25, but I think 1.0 is close enough for simplicity's sake.) I believe pawn uses the same approach, to give each item a "value" in the tooltip.
#15SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tenu
I've got exported pawn strings for Pater and Disquette's values:

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Disq)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=1.51, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=1.47, HitRating=1.08, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 )

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 )

So you can use the /pawn import command and paste those in. I scaled both to use a baseline of 1AP, and assumed 8str gems in sockets, and 24AP gem in metasocket.
#16SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
That's pretty cool.

I have also added a link to Lootzor's top 10 results for every slot in my sig.
#17SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Sebudai
Yeah I wanted to make sure, because it seems some of Lootzor's items are out of date with the 2.1 changes and I was working on a list for myself. Now we need to figure out weighting and value for haste rating.
#18SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
I can (or a helpful helper can) put haste rating into my sim pretty easily. I don't have any procs yet, but I should make the top ones (mongoose and that haste hammer at least) a priority.
#19SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2panny
Totem of the Astral Winds isn't exactly farmable, you can't reset heroic instances. It does take 15 minutes from zone in to the first boss though, should be worth doing it anytime you're doing any other Heroic in Auchindoun.
#20SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2panny
We should also include int/mp5 in our weightings (perhaps in two minute chunks). Although alot of leather is quite rated quite highly in the lootzor link, I think my back of the envelope calculations showed that we shouldn't neglect Int/mp5 completely: http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...postcount=1026 http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...postcount=1039

It may be that, at higher levels of gear, the percentage of damage that consists of Shocks will be so low that it's more worthwhile to just gear without thought to mana and reduce the number of shocks. But, at my level, with 0 spell damage, shocks are still a significant portion of my damage (~156 dps with debuffs). Since I am at the point where it is possible to run OOM during a full burn cycle, there must exist some equivalence between extra mana vs extra melee stats.

AP and +hit has the advantage of doing double duty of increasing melee damage while boosting mana gains, but relying on SR completely is also not always optimal. Timing SR with a trinket maximises mana gain, but you have to time it when you can be certain you won't waste SR procs. However, in many encounters, there exist damage windows where it's optimal to save your trinket for. These two scenarios don't always occur at the same time.

With a full burn DPS cycle being estimated at least ~13k mana per two minutes, we need to consider the question: What is the optimal ratio of intellect and mp5 to melee stats?

This will be a multivariable function which several critical points exist. Some things to consider:
-Does there exist any itemization points where the additional melee damage outweighs being able to shock every cooldown?
-If there is not, what is the minimum mana pool, mp5 and mana from SR required to sustain a full burn cycle.
#21SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Azaranth
Panny: I guess your mileage may vary. Some shaman have mana issues, others never do. It all depends on your gear, your raid composition, and the encounter.

It's impossible to have a realistic "dps weight" for mp5, int or stamina, because there is no direct connection between them and the other dps stats. At best, you should establish the amount of mana used in a 2 minute burn cycle, and develop a formula to express how much minimum mana a shaman would need, based on his AP (since AP directly feeds your mana regen with SR). mp5 is going to always, always, always be an inferior stat to Int for a decently geared shaman, since that shaman will be regenerating more mana with SR than he has room for in his small mana pool, and Int is a much cheaper itemization stat.

Furthermore, a 'full burn cycle' of mana consumption is nearly always constant, so there's not a lot of variables involved. Just determine the formula needed for complete sustainability based on buffed AP and weapon speed.

Personally, I raid with a Ret pally. <3 JoW
#22SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Zurgat
Curious, i wonder how big the difference is between the WF weapon enchant, and the WF totem (both talented).

Last edited by Zurgat : 01/04/08 at 11:13 AM.
#23SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Illundai
The biggest difference is that Windfury Weapon is 2 attacks. The totem is only 1.
#24SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2dwayna
so if i read this correclty . axe of the deepwoods with the flurry axe fails for lvling and i should get a slower weapon instead of the flurry 1 . im lvl 52 btw
#25SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by panny View Post
Totem of the Astral Winds isn't exactly farmable, you can't reset heroic instances. It does take 15 minutes from zone in to the first boss though, should be worth doing it anytime you're doing any other Heroic in Auchindoun.
Its "farmable" for that exact reason, I've been running it every day for 2 weeks 20 minutes before raid time. Its my white whale.
#26SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tornhoof
As for further models you can add my EquipOptimizer, which includes my Enh model.
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

The other shaman models are just fine, they should give you correct results.
The holy priest model is fine too, the shadow model is not finished
The protection tank model is not completely finished, but the results should be ok.
Rogue isn't even started.

It has some certain problems with selecting the right gems and it has some problems if you actually lock too many item slots, you should always leave like 2-3 open, otherwise it might as well crash.
#27SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.

My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).

Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.

1 INT = 15 mana.

Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)

So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.

(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)

Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.


These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
#28SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Oprahwinfury
Nice Pater but don't forget to add the miniscule spell crit rating that a point of Int gives as well
#29SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Illundai
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its "farmable" for that exact reason, I've been running it every day for 2 weeks 20 minutes before raid time. Its my white whale.
It seems to have some absurd droprate, which is a pity. I got mine on the first kill and I can't say I'm mad that I did :P.
#30SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Pater View Post
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.

My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).

Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.

1 INT = 15 mana.

Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)

So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.

(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)

Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.


These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
I like seeing this result. It makes me feel good about giving INT at least some weight in my Lootzor string. It raises a couple questions for me:

What's the maximum mana pool required for 2 minutes of SS, ES/FS, and totems between Shamanistic Rage (plus mana pot) cooldowns?
I think someone has done this work before, but it's easier for me to duplicate it than to search for it.
SS x 120/10 = 236*12 = 2832
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = 864 (note this is with Totemic Focus, adjust upwards by 25% if this doesn't apply to you... now that I explicitly see that this talent is only worth 288 mana/120 sec = 12mp5, I might get rid of it)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 535*9 = 4815
FS x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 500*9 = 4500
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238
2832 + 864 - 720 + 4815 + 4500 - 238 = 12053

We can then safely say that any INT which raises our buffed mana pool above 12053 is going to be useless, if we can get a refill off of SR + mana pot. If one waited until their mana pool were depleted by the amount of a Super Mana Pot at the start of a fight, chugged one, and then continued chugging each time the CD was up, you would get a larger "effective" mana pool without any more INT. A Super Mana is at least 1800 and averages 2400 mana, so if you accept the average, you don't need INT which raises the buffed mana pool above 9653. (Do pots still crit?)

Can we expect to fill that up with Shamanistic Rage?
Obviously, this is going to vary a lot with gear; and as most shamans know, it also depends on the fight (whether or not you can get a nice solid 30 seconds of attacking the ass end of a boss mob without having to move). We know that you get 15% of your AP back per proc. Do we have hard data on whether this is PPM or percentage-based?
#31SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ilmatar
I was under the impression that SR was PPM based, obviously no-cooldown.
#32SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Unaz
SS x 120/10 = 226*12 = 2712
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 288 + 312 + 115 + 196*2 = 1107
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, 5 seconds + 1 sec for gcd = 460*10 = 4600
FS x 120/6/2, 5 seconds + 1 sec for gcd = 430*10 = 4300
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -237
2712 + 1107 - 720 + 4600 + 4300 - 237 = 11762

With 2 extra shocks and the 5% extra damage adding up to a third extra shock in damage. With one out of the 20 proccing Elemental devastation for +9% crit as well on average.

With an Enhance/Ele spec of http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

So it's a savings of only about 300 mana with 3 extra shocks of damage, and a solid chance at proccing +9% crit every two minutes.

SR in my experience seemed to be PPM, as with a two hander it was proccing almost every swing fairly reliably. However dual wield seems to be PPM per hand, so you end up with almost the same effect at about twice the rate. The description is also fairly typical of a PPM description on the tooltip.


Also keep in mind that once your attack power reaches a certain breakpoint the time frame changes. You'll be filling your mana pool and able to refresh all your totems inside the window of SR, and even get free shocks off as well.

With SR lasting 30 seconds and enough attack power, you can almost guarantee yourself full mana at the end of 30 seconds. With a full totem refresh.

So a full totem refresh is about 8 seconds with GCD I believe. Which leaves 22 seconds for other spells. Which is 3 shocks untalented, or 4 talented.

If we assume the enh/resto build and full mana at the end of SR we have:

SS x 90/10 = 236*9 = 2124
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = FREE (SHould be able to drop and recover during SR uptime)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720 (will be up during SR)
ES x 90/7/2 = 535*6 = 3210 (there's rounding here, but rounding down due to not being able to land a partial shock)
FS x 90/7/2 = 500*6 = 3000
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238 (Should probably not count as it will happen during SR?)
2124 - 720 + 3210 + 3000 - 237 = 7377

With Enh/Ele:

SS x 90/10 = 226*9 = 2034
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 288 + 312 + 115 + 196*2 = FREE
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 90/6/2 = 460*7.5 = 3450 (15 shocks, so one needs to be 8, averaging as it can go either way)
FS x 90/6/2 = 430*7.5 = 3225
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -237
2034 - 720 + 3450 + 3225 - 237 = 7752 (with 3 more shocks and 75% of the damage of another shock)

NOTE that these are only if you are able to maintain a shock rotation and re-drop all totems during SR, ending at full mana. If you are able to proc 400 mana/second, you can get 12000. 500 mana every two seconds (which is more reasonable at higher ends of gear) is 7500 mana during SR. The closer you can get to the end of SR with full mana without interrupting your shock/SS rotation, the closer to efficient you get. Right now I only ever seem to need the cheap combat mana pots to keep shocks going. Although I'm usually aggro capped before that, or have trouble keeping on the mob for the full duration.

Quick Conclusion
I have some overlap and rounding issues here, and will assume that hardly everyone keeps up a perfect dps rotation on every cooldown, or gets 100% uptime. These numbers are pointing at about 7400-7800 under optimum conditions and a certain level of AP. I'd say 8500 is probably the ideal amount of mana to allow for breathing room WITHOUT relying on pots. If you have pots you either can get more breathing room or a lower mana pool. Or save the cooldowns for non-mana pots.

I also hardly ever find myself using totemic call unless I'm moving away from my old totems, as I'd rather refresh them one at a time and not take the buffs off my group for sake of my mana efficiency. There's also water shield to consider, which procs off of many more conditions then Lightning Shield, so I usually keep it up all the time.

Last edited by Unaz : 06/20/07 at 5:04 PM.
#33SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
panny
Originally Posted by Pater View Post
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.

My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).

Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.

1 INT = 15 mana.

Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)

So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.

(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)

Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.


These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
Not including CoE, imp. scorch, Misery or SS debuff is a mistake imho, ES+FS rotation is ~156 DPS. According to the simple maths I did comparing Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless vs Cyclone Spaulders, if you accept that it is possible to run OoM, there's definitely cases where going for the int is more advantageous.

I suppose creating a ratio isn't as useful as other stats, as after your mana pool is a certain size compared to your gains from SR, it stops contributing to your DPS. The fact that the question "how much int do I need" will vary for different encounters, your stats, and raid composition. With no gear changes, on one week of Gruul, I gained 3-4k mana per Shamanistic Rage. This week, with a Survival Hunter and two Warriors in my group (meaning I get Battle Shout for the entire fight rather than just the first half), I gained 7.5k mana.

Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I like seeing this result. It makes me feel good about giving INT at least some weight in my Lootzor string. It raises a couple questions for me:

What's the maximum mana pool required for 2 minutes of SS, ES/FS, and totems between Shamanistic Rage (plus mana pot) cooldowns?
I think someone has done this work before, but it's easier for me to duplicate it than to search for it.
SS x 120/10 = 236*12 = 2832
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = 864 (note this is with Totemic Focus, adjust upwards by 25% if this doesn't apply to you... now that I explicitly see that this talent is only worth 288 mana/120 sec = 12mp5, I might get rid of it)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 535*9 = 4815
FS x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 500*9 = 4500
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238
2832 + 864 - 720 + 4815 + 4500 - 238 = 12053

We can then safely say that any INT which raises our buffed mana pool above 12053 is going to be useless, if we can get a refill off of SR + mana pot. If one waited until their mana pool were depleted by the amount of a Super Mana Pot at the start of a fight, chugged one, and then continued chugging each time the CD was up, you would get a larger "effective" mana pool without any more INT. A Super Mana is at least 1800 and averages 2400 mana, so if you accept the average, you don't need INT which raises the buffed mana pool above 9653. (Do pots still crit?)
They can, but generally, Fel Mana Potions are a better bet (3.2k mana restored).

Also, don't forget that Bloodlust is 750 mana. Obviously, you don't cast it ever 2 minutes, it needs to be considered.

Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Can we expect to fill that up with Shamanistic Rage?
Obviously, this is going to vary a lot with gear; and as most shamans know, it also depends on the fight (whether or not you can get a nice solid 30 seconds of attacking the ass end of a boss mob without having to move). We know that you get 15% of your AP back per proc. Do we have hard data on whether this is PPM or percentage-based?
I use WWS to give me an indication of how much mana will be restored in a given encounter. I believe it is PPM.

All this theorycraft is irritating though. Surely with all the high-end raiders we have posting here, some would have a heavy leather gear setups they can post experience about using?

Last edited by panny : 06/20/07 at 10:44 PM.
#34SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Azaranth
Originally Posted by panny View Post
All this theorycraft is irritating though. Surely with all the high-end raiders we have posting here, some would have a heavy leather gear setups they can post experience about using?
6k unbuffed mana. 1400 unbuffed ap.

I never go out of mana in raids. I spam stormstrike every cast, and shock every single opportunity when threat isn't a concern. During unleashed rage, I mana dump every chance that I can, even using Fire Nova Totem / Searing Totem rotations =X. Mana is just not an issue unless my unleashed rage is interrupted somehow. (Void Reaver is annoying for this reason. I usually save my healthstones for Unleashed Rage, and just eat a few ground poundings).

We frequently have JoW up however.
#35SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Well, I'm nearly 100% kara leather and have been avoiding anything with mana for a while. The only time I have mana problems is when I forget to use SR.
#36SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2panny
All accounts of JoW make me rather jealous.

Pater, is that with a full shock rotation?
#37SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)

Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night) but I am threat-capped from just autoattacking + SS, so mana's not a concern there. (It might be if I had two piece Tier 5, as I would definitely take advantage of the instant-cast LHW on that fight. Even though it would increase my threat, I sometimes have to run out for pounding and/or pop a healthstone when I'm getting scared that I won't get healed.) I think if our 4th tank were better, I would not be quite so threat-capped, he really can't keep up with the first 3.
#38SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Panny -- occasionally I have mana problems when pushing shocks to the max. Most of the time the problems are SR-related, though: either forgetting to use it, or having some of it wasted because of shatter and the like.
#39SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)
With that kind of unbuffed AP you should be getting pretty much an entire mana bar back on Mag. The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler. After that just use it every time its up and you shouldn't have to use any pots. Do you not have paladins at all? If you do, and are not getting JoW, you need to yell at them. My paladins claimed they "couldn't keep judgments on" until I bitched about it non stop and made them do it. Now they keep it up all the time because they can see the huge returns we get from JoL and JoW.
Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night)
You can bring more melee than that - we did VR first time last night also, had 4 tanks and 5 melee in the pounding the whole time. 1-2 Shaman can chain heal the melee through the entire fight with no issues.
#40SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2drats
Maybe there should be a few lines in the OP about which pally buffs are best for enhancement. In an ideal world, you'd get all four (kings, might, wisdom, salvation), but in reality we usually only run with three paladins. I tend to prefer kings, might, salve as my combination, due to the fact that kings and might mean I gain a healthy amount of mana back from each SR proc.

These are the pros and cons of each based on my experiences:

Kings - Increases all stats by 10%.
Pros: Good in almost every situation.
Cons: Causes a decent increase in threat generation due to harder hits and more shocks.

Might - Increases AP by 220.
Pros: More AP means stronger attacks, more SR mana returns.
Cons: Threat generation when combined with kings. Paladins have to buff this separately and refresh during battle.

Wisdom - Returns 42 mp5.
Pros: Best blessing for mana regen, shines on long fights.
Cons: Not always necessary with proper use of SR.

Salvation - Decrease threat generated by 30%
Pros: Best blessing for threat problems, allows 30% more dps.
Cons: Useless blessing when not threat capped.

In general, the other shaman always want kings, wisdom and salvation. I usually have to coordinate with the wisdom pally to get the five minute version of might and have it refreshed during battle. I placed that under con because if the pally is dead or healing then you're out of a buff after the first five minutes.

It's also worth noting (perhaps under might?) that on nights where we have a fury warrior in the dps group I tend to need salvation more, due to battleshout.
#41SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2drats
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
With that kind of unbuffed AP you should be getting pretty much an entire mana bar back on Mag. The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler.
This is slightly off topic, but proper placement of totems helps a lot during the first 2 minutes of Mag. With 30yd totems you can place them between the first and second channeler and not have to redrop until you move to the third one. I usually end up dropping totems twice after the pull, and it makes a noticeable difference in my mana pool going into phase 2. I also save SR and bloodlust till the 3rd channeler, but that's just my personal preference.

I've noticed a lot of fights where good totem placement can make mana management much easier, like Mag and Hydross. Just make sure your group knows where you're placing the totems so they can stay near them.
#42SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Khrashz
meta choices

One thing that seems conspicuously absent from the collected theorycraft is metagem choices.

EDIT: appears that relentless earthstorm is the best choice, after reading one of the source threads. Still -- would be an appropriate addition to this excellent summary.

Last edited by Khrashz : 06/21/07 at 2:42 PM.
#43SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Negative
99% sure the math was done in the itemization thread proving 3% is better. It's nicer now that it also procs on yellow damage instead of just white.
#44SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Khrashz
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its "farmable" for that exact reason, I've been running it every day for 2 weeks 20 minutes before raid time. Its my white whale.
You too? My condolences ... although I'm basically numb by now ... I think I'm up to 25+ runs without seeing it drop. Exalted with consortium, got all sorts of ethereum keys, a fel barrier, etc ... but that totem .... that totem ... why. Why. Why.

In other news, my other white whale, Skulker's Greaves, was harpooned, brought to port, and made into exceedingly expensive perfumes in the deep hours of the night yesterday.

PS: A guildmate (and member of these forums) has been trying to talk me out of socketing those pants with 3 rigid dawnstones. He's been reading these forums closely and is insisting I go for triple +8 str.

Here's my armory, with me wearing them in all their unsocketed/unpatched glory:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...oroth&n=Khrash

Once I patch them later today, I'll be starting with a baseline of 1498 ap and 203 hit unbuffed. (If I push cap, I can change out edgewalker to rapscallion, and/or pick up a pendant of the perilous to replace worgen claw).

Advice on which 3 gems to stuff in them?
#45SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Grats!

I'd agree with your friend. I give STR a 1.1 weight and HR only 0.7.

Right now, I have 4cr/6sta in mine for the yellow slot, but that's because I just haven't gotten around to changing it since settling on the stat weights.


According to a few sims and other approaches, HR just isn't that hot above some level. You don't even need to be that close to the cap (25.5) before it starts giving diminishing returns. (As far as why this might be, I would guess it's because SS and WF only have 5% base miss rate.)
#46SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler. After that just use it every time its up and you shouldn't have to use any pots. Do you not have paladins at all?
Yeah, I do redrop WF/SoE; I also drop Fire Elemental Totem for the first 2 channelers (we MD one onto the first tank and he tanks 2 in one spot), as well as earth shocking heals/shadow bolt volleys. I typically use my trinkets on the channelers but save my SR for Magtheridon, which lets me get a full bar back if I take a few seconds off of shocking. Heroism, I don't bother popping for the first 2 Channelers because I would just pull aggro, I usually save it for the 3rd or so. I'm going to assume that any difference left over is due to JoW; we usually carry 3-4 Holy paladins, maybe I can get one of them to start judging it for me.
Originally Posted by Khrashz View Post
PS: A guildmate (and member of these forums) has been trying to talk me out of socketing those pants with 3 rigid dawnstones. He's been reading these forums closely and is insisting I go for triple +8 str.
Your friend is right. Go triple +8 str, or if for some perverse reason you want the +dodge rating bonus, use one of the purple +4 str/+6 sta gems.
#47SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Jendryn
Rob, once you've had a pally judge wisdom in a fight like Magtheridon where you're essentially standing there the entire fight (minus any backup clicking duties you may have), you won't want to ever go back. In the case of Mag, JoW restores just about the same amount of mana SR does when using SR every cooldown (SR restores about 410 mana on proc untrinketed in raids).

In any event, I too have harbored the fear of losing too much Int due to wearing leather but the more my Int goes down, I can see that it truly has a very small effect. Now I just need this link handy when I bid on rogue gear.
#48SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Jeht
The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is now extremely detrimental to shaman DPS. The fast OH is more likely to hit a mob again after a WF cooldown is up, and therefore has the first opportunity to proc a new WF and trigger the cooldown again. The OH interference prevents MH WF procs and thus reduces your DPS. It has been shown that this cooldown interference is so severe that replacing an epic dagger OH (any from KZ as an example) with a green or blue 2.6 speed OH will actually increase your DPS. (Again, despite this problem, it is still preferrable to have WF on the OH. Any WF proc, even on the OH, will result in more DPS over time than FlameTongue or Rockbiter on the OH.)

The attack power bonus from Windfury is not reduced by the 50% OH damage penalty from Dual Wielding.
Can you elaborate on this point just a little bit? Since the WF bonus is not halved by dual wielding, why do you not want WF to proc on the off-hand? Is it because the WF bonus is applied to damage that's been reduced by the DW penalty? Or because itemization naturally lends itself to weaker off-hand weapons?
#49SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Jeht View Post
Can you elaborate on this point just a little bit? Since the WF bonus is not halved by dual wielding, why do you not want WF to proc on the off-hand? Is it because the WF bonus is applied to damage that's been reduced by the DW penalty? Or because itemization naturally lends itself to weaker off-hand weapons?
Offhand procs do less damage than main hand procs, and they share the same lockout timer. By minimizing the amount of offhand procs in comparison to main hand procs the theory is that you will generate more overall damage. This isn't quite as noticeable at earlier levels of itemization since it has been revealed that the AP from the Windfury proc applied to the offhand is not halved as you would expect, but once you reach SSC/TK/MGlad level gear it becomes much more pronounced as more of your damage is generated from AP.
#50SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
drats - Good idea on the totem placement, don't know why I didn't think of that.

Krashz and Negative - I went through the itemization thread like 3 times and somehow keep missing the couple of posts that debated meta gems, if someone can summarize it up for me to put in the OP or link it, I'd be obliged. Quite busy at work right now.
#51SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2drats
Originally Posted by Jeht View Post
Can you elaborate on this point just a little bit? Since the WF bonus is not halved by dual wielding, why do you not want WF to proc on the off-hand? Is it because the WF bonus is applied to damage that's been reduced by the DW penalty? Or because itemization naturally lends itself to weaker off-hand weapons?
There's a whole thread on that here:
The Change to Windfury and You! (does not apply to warriors)

The general idea is that the WF bonus isn't halved but the damage still is. Everytime your OH procs it's keeping your MH from proccing for 3 seconds.
#52SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Jeht
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Offhand procs do less damage than main hand procs, and they share the same lockout timer. By minimizing the amount of offhand procs in comparison to main hand procs the theory is that you will generate more overall damage. This isn't quite as noticeable at earlier levels of itemization since it has been revealed that the amount of AP applied to the offhand is not halved as you would expect, but once you reach SSC/TK/MGlad weapons it becomes much more pronounced.
Yes I understand that much, but why do they do less damage? Is it just from the DW off-hand penalty?

IE- mainhand attack WF damage would be: x+WF AP, offhand attack WF damage would be: x*.6 (or whatever the penalty is)+WF AP?

edit: OK I think I got it thank you.
#53SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Jeht View Post
Yes I understand that much, but why do they do less damage? Is it just from the DW off-hand penalty?
Yes. The offhand damage is halved from what it would be if it were a main hand attack, then the bonus AP from Windfury Weapon's proc is applied.
#54SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2mek
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but does this mean 1 CR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR?
Yeah. The original post is a little unclear on this, and it also has the consequence of CR being EQUAL to AP, after considering the item budget. Perhaps some clarification should indicate that AP and CR are equally good (approximately) due to their different itemization costs. It also means that Strength is superior to both, after considering Kings.
#55SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Azaranth
Is the goal of this thread for discussion, or only reference of 'confirmed' theroycraft? (The following seems out of place in the itemization thread.)

So, does anyone else juggle WF totem and AGI, trying to keep both up? I've got a hotkey for it (tied to stormstrike, to help time the WF Totem buff), but I really only use it in the "go nuts" portion of a fight - usually the low hp enrage portion where I'm trying to mana dump any way that I can.

For the record, my macro is:
/castsequence reset=6 Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem;

It's bound to a more obscure place on my keyboard, due to it's infrequent use. It's pretty fun, although it really means you spend pretty much the entire fight in the global cooldown. I usually mix Fire Nova Totem in there too, since it's about the best mana dump I have.
#56SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Azaranth View Post
So, does anyone else juggle WF totem and AGI, trying to keep both up? I've got a hotkey for it (tied to stormstrike, to help time the WF Totem buff), but I really only use it in the "go nuts" portion of a fight - usually the low hp enrage portion where I'm trying to mana dump any way that I can.
Its been suggested a lot and dismissed by most as a waste of mana and mostly a "oh gee isn't this neat" sort of thing that isn't really useful. It puts you on GCD pretty much the entire time and requires most of your attention focused on that instead of on the fight or maybe helping top someone off that's about to die (although I guess macro'd its easier).
#57SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Azaranth
Yar. I think that's why I tend to use it in the "Oh God, Leotheras is going to enrage in 20 seconds!" sort of situations

I wouldn't bother without a macro. It's pretty low maintenance as long as it's hotkeyed properly.
#58SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Negative
This post is a decent summary of metas and boot enchants. I tried finding the math as well that I thought was there but couldn't find it.

http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...postcount=1212

Basically the haste gem has the internal cooldown that makes it pretty terrible, while the change to Relentless making it affect yellow damage makes it by far the better choice.
#59SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
There's something that has been bugging me for a while. I always see people posting that you need a certain amount of hit rating to be effective, usually you see numbers around 20% or 200 hit rating. Or you see people concerned that they can't afford to lose hit rating. Is there really any truth to this though? I've been finding when using tools like pawn and lootzor that items lacking +hit often score very high. Since AEP ratings are designed to give a genuine value to items, are these ratings somehow broken? Or are players just clinging to the notion that hit is required out of habit?

My curiosity on this subject has led me to make myself a bit of a guinea pig. I've been taking items based solely on AEP style ratings for the last month or so, my hit rating has plummeted from around 220 to 111. My damage however feels like it's improved though I haven't been logging much data so I can't say with any certainty.

When Pater posted his sim one thing I checked right off was whether the relative value of hit rating changed depending on how much you had. I put in regular raid buffed values and lowered the +hit from gear to 0%, then I increased it by 5% and ran it again. I then did the same change again, going from 11% to 16%. The results came out as such:

0% -> 5% (9% -> 14%)
847.5 -> 875.8 = 28.3 DPS gained

11% -> 16% (20% -> 25%)
910.4 -> 940 = 29.6 DPS gained

Is there anything I'm missing? I'm trying find anything other than anecdotal evidence that a certain amount of hit rating is more beneficial than an equal amount of item budget spent on AP or crit stats. Certainly due to the non-linear cost you want items that have a balance of all DPS stats, but many pieces just aren't itemized that way. Should I be passing over items that score higher overall for ones that though scoring lower have a more even stat distribution?
#60SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Having high amounts of hit rating has the somewhat intangible benefit of guaranteeing lots of hits when you use SR, in addition to avoiding a situation where you are crit capped (not really a problem since 2.1). The magic number formula is purely in terms of DPS.
#61SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Unaz
The rule of thumb I've been using recently (now that I'm actually starting to have a moderate amount of socketed gear available to me) is any piece where the bonus is useful to me from a dps standpoint (typically AP/or +hit bonuses) and I can reach the bonus using purely +hit/str/ap gems, I'll match colors.

Everything else +8 str.

That being said I was finding myself lacking due to getting pieces of dps gear with no +hit and trying to stay above certain minimums, so threw in a little extra +hit.

Regarding the whole paladin thing, we've had bad luck keeping active raiding paladins (horde guild). After having 4 people reroll as pallys with BC, 3 of them stopped playing due to one reason or another, and we're only now back up to 3 pallys. Typically running with one, 2 if we're lucky. So I usually end up asking for might and getting the opportunity for kings maybe 20% of the time.
#62SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Having high amounts of hit rating has the somewhat intangible benefit of guaranteeing lots of hits when you use SR, in addition to avoiding a situation where you are crit capped (not really a problem since 2.1). The magic number formula is purely in terms of DPS.
True, however sacrificing some of that hit for for strength would go some way to compensating you. Just some quick numbers and my math is fairly poor so I may make some mistakes.

Lets assume 2200 AP and take 100 hit rating and exchange it for 100 str. We would lose 6.33% hit and I guess 6.33% SR procs? Our overall mana gain would go down by 6.33% as well if I'm correct. With kings and UR that 100 str would gain us 242 AP? Which would gain us an additional 36.3 mana per SR proc pushing them from 330 to 366.3 an 11% gain. So you'd get 6.33 percent fewer procs bu tthe procs would return 11% more mana, assuming no errors in my math which is a pretty big assumption. Either way it should be a small change.

You're correct as well that with the greatly reduced glancing rate the crit cap even without as much +hit is still quite high.
#63SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
if you lose 6.33% hit, you loose (white swings / total swings) SR procs.

Assume you have 10 white swings in 10 seconds (2.6 weapons, perma-hasted).

You would also have 2 stormstrike swings, and probably 4 windfury swings that are unaffected by your drop in hit (since they're maxed out by your talents hit-wise).

So, instead of losing 100% * 6.33% = 6.33% SR loss, you actually have
10/16 = 62.5% * 6.33% = 4.0% fewer SR procs.
#64SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Ulix
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
StormStrike and Windfury are not normalized to weapon speed and are not impacted by haste effects. Haste is therefore an excellent way to increase Shaman DPS.
I think haste rating does in fact have an impact on WF, certain ammounts of haste rating can actually have a negative impact on DPS output. I dont know if this has been brought up on these forums already, but if it hasnt here is link to a fairly informative discussion about it http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....sid=1&pageNo=1.

Edit: A different subject. We usually have a GoA-dps group, it consists of a druid, enhancement shammy (me!), rogue, hunter and a warrior. I'd like to see some number-crunching on dps output of such a group with GoA or WF, I'd think GoA wins in such a group. Also, in the OP's analysis of WF and Agi totem, the dps increase of the shaman itself with GoA isnt added, it should be! :p

Last edited by Ulix : 06/22/07 at 8:29 AM.
#65SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
The bonus damage that the dps warrior in your group puts out using Windfury is much higher then the rest of the group combined using GoA. At least in my experience.

This was posted at the bottom of Compilation:

On why Windfury Totem is almost always the best totem to drop for any group that has a warrior DPSing in it, or pretty much any group that is not just hunters and druids:
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=40
A Fury warrior will gain 200-300 DPS from WFT, eclipsing any gains that other group, in total, would gain from GoA being dropped instead. A Mortal Strike warrior will gain even more from the totem due to 2H mechanics.
#66SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Ulix View Post
I think haste rating does in fact have an impact on WF, certain ammounts of haste rating can actually have a negative impact on DPS output. I dont know if this has been brought up on these forums already, but if it hasnt here is link to a fairly informative discussion about it http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....sid=1&pageNo=1.
Nothing in that link struck me as the poster having any idea whatsoever what he's talking about.
#67SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Ulix View Post
We usually have a GoA-dps group, it consists of a druid, enhancement shammy (me!), rogue, hunter and a warrior. I'd like to see some number-crunching on dps output of such a group with GoA or WF, I'd think GoA wins in such a group.
The numbers are linked in my post. Why are people still coming and saying "I think GoA might be better...." when you can just try it out for yourself? Go do Magtheridon, use WF this week and GoA the next with the same setup. This isn't difficult to test.
#68SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Edit: A different subject. We usually have a GoA-dps group, it consists of a druid, enhancement shammy (me!), rogue, hunter and a warrior. I'd like to see some number-crunching on dps output of such a group with GoA or WF, I'd think GoA wins in such a group. Also, in the OP's analysis of WF and Agi totem, the dps increase of the shaman itself with GoA isnt added, it should be! :p
This is a stupid group if you're outside Kara and you shouldn't ever see it in 25 man raids. If your warrior is halfway competent he will see tremendous gains from Windfury that will likely eclipse the DPS gained by the rest of the group from GoA.
#69SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
I'd like to interject at this time that we have quite a few theories going on here, and I'm not sure how much they've actually been tested. This worries me.

If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't know about the Windfury offhand bonus being exactly what it is. (minor deviation from theory)

If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't have discovered the 36% chance to WF when dual wielding . (major deviation from theory)

If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't know that we're getting more flurried attacks than we should. (major deviation from theory)

Even blasted lands tests are fine for testing these out, but until they are tested, I'm not very comfortable with treating the results from any of this as being worth much.

For blasted lands tests, back into your numbers - run recap and find out what your actual crit rate and hit rate are, then plug those into your sim or formula. Find out how many auto-attack swings you had, compare it to what your model suggests. Find out how many windfury procs you had, compare that to the model. You wont have any dodge/block/parry/glancing, but the models and formulas need to be able to account for this situation as well, so you might as well start on the scenario that's easiest to test.

I'm not saying that any of the formulas or stat valuations are wrong, I'm saying that we currently don't seem to be confirming that they're right.
#70SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ulix
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
This is a stupid group if you're outside Kara and you shouldn't ever see it in 25 man raids. If your warrior is halfway competent he will see tremendous gains from Windfury that will likely eclipse the DPS gained by the rest of the group from GoA.
My guild is definately not the best out there, we've just started SSC 2 weeks ago, got 2 bossed down, and we are working on Tidewalker. But we seem to get the highest overal dps output with this GoA group thing. I dont see why anyone would deem this as a stupid group, 5% crit aura, battleshout, Ferocious Inspiration from the BM hunter (3% extra dmg), and totems + Unleashed Rage makes a damn fine dps group imo :p The druid also offtanks occasionally, and since their agro scales with dmg this group is also rather good for that, only thing he misses is an imp.

I understand perfectly well that the warrior's dps is WAY higher with WF, thats obvious. However, if the warrior uses stones on his weapons + GoA, the rogues uses poisons + GoA, and the other 3 dps get the benefits from GoA aswell... ah well, ill test it next Karathress, no holding back on that fight anyway. Sorry for asking
#71SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Do you not have a 2nd rogue? Only 1 in the entire raid? You'd get much more benefit from dropping the hunter out of that group and replacing him with a rogue. The DPS gain from giving Battle Shout to rogues is tremendous. And then get rid of the GoA and give the warrior and 2 rogues WF and you'll see far more DPS gains. And no, Stones + Poisons + GoA are not better than WF.
#72SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
• Nite_Moogle
I don't see why anyone would deem this as a stupid group, 5% crit aura, battleshout, Ferocious Inspiration from the BM hunter (3% extra dmg), and totems + Unleashed Rage makes a damn fine dps group imo :p
Unless you bring no other melees to your raid beyond one warrior and one rogue you can organize your groups better than this. As an enhancement Shaman you should have these people in your group in order of priority: DPS warriors, sword rogues, dagger rogues, LotP druids (LotP druids + BM hunters = happiness, so be nice and share them). If you use warriors for offtanks, having them in your group will allow them to build threat more easily with WFT and the extra AP, but they are usually better in the MT group for Imp/Tree buffs.

Having a hunter in the group for the BM bonus is not nearly worth the opportunity cost of having an additional melee gain the benefits of WFT. This is one of the most common mistakes that people make in organizing groups. Ferocious Inspiration is a flat 3% bonus to any sort of damage and it makes Hunters useful in any damage-dealing group, whereas the difference between GoA and WF for warriors and rogues is tremendous by the time you are in SSC. If you have a hunter in a mage group FI is roughly as effective as it is to a melee group, but that hunter will get far less benefit from shaman totems than a melee class would. If you have a rogue in the mage group when the hunter is in your group, you are crippling that rogue's DPS (no totems, no battle shout) and the hunter is not providing any real additional benefit (not affected by battle shout, WF does nothing, only receives half benefit from GoA/SoE). If you can provide WFT to four other melee classes you should absolutely be doing it, because nothing else will provide them with as big of a benefit as what you will.

Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 06/22/07 at 11:50 AM.
#73SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Ulix
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Nothing in that link struck me as the poster having any idea whatsoever what he's talking about.
Well, there have been more posts prior to that, and I'd suggest reading more than the OP only (check Aj, and Snorkle's replies). It truely seems like an interesting read. But to give small insight to what is being discussed there:

WF has a 3 second cooldown. Once it procs, it wont proc again in the next 3 seconds. With weapons of 2.6 speed, without flurry or anything, this means that WF *can* proc every other swing. So, WF, normal swing, WF, is possible. Now, what happens when flurry + haste-rating items make you swing faster than 1.5 seconds, lets say 1.49. To have a chance to proc WF after a WF you would need 2 swings instead of only 1. So in theory, when you get haste-rating items that make you swing faster than 1.5 seconds your WF proc rate *will* go down. Yes, your white damage will increase, but your WF dmg over time will go down. Your overal dps will be lower with 1.49 swing speed than with 1.5 swing speed.

The next question would be, how is the overal dps output when the swingspeed becomes 1.4, or 1.3, or even lower, it will be better than 1.49 thats for sure, but at what point will it be better than 1,5 speed.

The thread I linked discusses just that.

Note, this theory is about swing speed, NOT weapon speed. SLOW/SLOW is always the way to go when it comes to weapon speed.

But, if you feel that the original poster has no idea what he is talking about, please explain to me why that is the case. This thread was made by Aj and Snorkle, which are both well known on the european shaman boards for their theorycrafting.

I have always really apreciated these forums as a source of information, and tbh I'd expected a better response than "he just doesnt have a clue"

Last edited by Ulix : 06/22/07 at 12:33 PM.
#74SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ulix
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Do you not have a 2nd rogue? Only 1 in the entire raid? You'd get much more benefit from dropping the hunter out of that group and replacing him with a rogue. The DPS gain from giving Battle Shout to rogues is tremendous. And then get rid of the GoA and give the warrior and 2 rogues WF and you'll see far more DPS gains. And no, Stones + Poisons + GoA are not better than WF.
We usually dont have many rogues with us, or dps warriors for that matter. And my question wasnt "Is Stones + Poisons + GoA better than WF?". It was: Wont my group dps be better with goa, when it consists of a druid/hunter/warrior/rogue/me and the rogue and warrior use stones/poisons? :p

Anyway, lets drop this! Gimme your opinions on the haste-rating/swingspeed matter!
#75SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
The haste-lowers-your-DPS discussion was hashed out some time ago; there are certain hastes that will lower your overall DPS, but they are pretty difficult to come by in actual practice. Mongoose is probably the main culprit of this but it only occurs at certain very uncommon weapon speeds (1.5 or 3.0, etc). It's pretty hard for any item that generates at least 5% haste to lower your DPS.
#176SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
Hey!

As an enhancement shaman, I have problems often with my task being recognized (as a buffer).

So I have a petition tho whoever knows how to code, that would greatly help our spec.

Make an addon that calculates the DPS given to party by our buffs. This can be somewhat complicated, but at least some parts are easy.

By selecting Skill Details in swstats, you can get how many Windfury damage a player did. So, it should be easy to extract those numbers and summarize them up in a separate addon. I'm finding that rogues do an average 7% damage from my Windfury Totem, and warriors go up to 15%.

Now, this part was easy. How to calculate STR totem (or AGI if it's down instead of Windfury) and Unleashed Rage?

I'm sure the mats are not easy for certain classes considering instants and procs, but if Recap and SWStats can get so much accurate info about that data, it should not be hard for someone with enough knowledge on scripting and game mechanics to code something easy that can report at the end of the fight something like:

Tradewind's own damage: 340932.
WF given to party: +89023.
+STR given to party: +14932.
UR given to party: +40834.
Total damage added to the raid: 485721.
#177SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Vykromond
The problem with such an approach is that every other class will want to be recognized for its own "non-personal DPS contribution" and some are much more easy to quantify than others.
#178SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Kissmyaxe
Also keep in mind that an enhancement shaman is compared to a restoration shaman when boosting the melee group.

Your contribution is 13 extra strength for SoE totem, 133 AP for WF totem and 10% AP (we could average this to 200 AP I guess although it is scalable) from UR.
#179SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2berg
Originally Posted by Kissmyaxe View Post
Also keep in mind that an enhancement shaman is compared to a restoration shaman when boosting the melee group.

Your contribution is 13 extra strength for SoE totem, 133 AP for WF totem and 10% AP (we could average this to 200 AP I guess although it is scalable) from UR.
I agree that previously ele/enh shaman were competing with resto shaman. But this comparison was a lot better pre-expansion than it is now.

If you take one of the many generic melee dps powerhouse groups for example...
feral,
dps war,
rogue,
rogue,
<some shaman>

A resto shaman can still provide great buffs to this group similar to an enhancement shaman. However the resto shamans totems and the other members group buffs (Battle shout, lotp) will be entirely wasted on the resto shaman.

The enhancement shaman drops marginally superior totems but also takes advantage of his totems and the other melee buffs. Also Unleashed rage is a 300 AP buff in a raid setting which is certainly significant since it is almost always up. With these factors altogether, there is a very significant gap in the raid strength of a melee group with an enh shaman and one with a resto shaman.
#180SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
You really don't need an addon to calculate this you can do it ahead of time with a piece of paper and a calculator.
#181SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You really don't need an addon to calculate this you can do it ahead of time with a piece of paper and a calculator.
Sure, and you can sum all your damage lines in the Combat Log for the last 10 minutes fight and come up with your total damage.

Are you retard? I was speaking about something fight-specific, not some dumb and generalistic %'s everyone knows already.
#182SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
Are you retard?
Don't make posts like this please.
#183SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Shinok
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
We stopped doing Magtheridon before I picked up my current weapons. This is from our last kill when I was using The Decapitator and Fel Edged Battleaxe. I wasn't in charge of clicking a cube: http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/2...314/index.html

This is from our most recent Karathress: http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/2...128/index.html
Thanks for the WWS logs -- looking at your armory, you have about 4% more crit and 100 more AP than I do, yet deal about 10-15% more DPS. I wouldn't think the delta was that large, especially with some of that being made up by my 6-7% advantage in hit rating.

After seeing how high your DPS is on the WWS logs, I'm definitely interested in a high AP / high crit build, and lowering my hit substantially to that end. Any additional advice on your gearing philosophy is welcome. Would you prefer 1600 AP / 28% crit or 1800 AP / 24% crit?
#184SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tenu
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You really don't need an addon to calculate this you can do it ahead of time with a piece of paper and a calculator.
Indeed. The percentage increases make a compelling case for an enhancement shaman in a melee group.

Whether you top some sort of "contribution" meter is pretty irrelevant, especially with all the synergistic effects that go on in a group/raid (ie how much of your UR uptime was from the crit buff you got from a feral druid etc etc).
#185SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Expigator
Originally Posted by Shinok View Post
Thanks for the WWS logs -- looking at your armory, you have about 4% more crit and 100 more AP than I do, yet deal about 10-15% more DPS. I wouldn't think the delta was that large, especially with some of that being made up by my 6-7% advantage in hit rating.

After seeing how high your DPS is on the WWS logs, I'm definitely interested in a high AP / high crit build, and lowering my hit substantially to that end. Any additional advice on your gearing philosophy is welcome. Would you prefer 1600 AP / 28% crit or 1800 AP / 24% crit?
I was looking at the same thing. That's some pretty high dps for lacking that much hit. I guess when you hit something, you hit it hard. Those 2 weapons are super nice as well. I may be rethinking my hit scenario after seeing those WWS reports and your armory.

I think being a rogue before may have had something to do with my +hit lust.
#186SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Unaz
I've been running with an Enhance/Elemental build for a while now, and find it to be fairly effective overall. The 5 second cooldown on shocks especially (helpful on damage and fights where I have to help interrupt), and elemental devastation procs often enough to make the talents worthwhile - kicking my crit up to over 40% quite easily.

My main selling point for it is the ability to maintain a full shock rotation much without having to go to pots (beyond the occasionaly combat pot), on a faster cooldown, and for more damage.

The resto options are good, but you seem to have to put so many points in for that 3%. The totem range increase does help, but is usually not overly necessary with careful positioning.
#187SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
I'm also trying to go for AP and crit over hit, based on Disquette and Pater's simulation results; my gear's not as good as Sebudai's though. One thing that's not indicated by just a cursory glance at his character sheet is the haste rating he's got on his gear; note that his 2.60 speed weapon is dropped to 2.53 without Flurry. If the calculations thus far in the thread are correct, Haste should be very powerful.

Originally Posted by tha_bishop View Post
question:
I use deathbringer (http://www.thottbot.com/i17068) and Mag'hari fury brand (http://www.thottbot.com/i25764) on my lvl 66 shaman.

I guess I should put deathbringer in my MH? It has a proc, is slower and has only a little bit less max dmg. Only reason why I am doubting is because mag'hari does have more max dmg and just more dps.
I'd put the higher DPS weapon in your MH and the lower DPS weapon in your OH. The speed differential doesn't matter so much, but in general I guess I'd rather have a slower weapon in the OH since it's getting fewer WF procs.
#188SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
Originally Posted by Shinok View Post
Thanks for the WWS logs -- looking at your armory, you have about 4% more crit and 100 more AP than I do, yet deal about 10-15% more DPS. I wouldn't think the delta was that large, especially with some of that being made up by my 6-7% advantage in hit rating.

After seeing how high your DPS is on the WWS logs, I'm definitely interested in a high AP / high crit build, and lowering my hit substantially to that end. Any additional advice on your gearing philosophy is welcome. Would you prefer 1600 AP / 28% crit or 1800 AP / 24% crit?
One thing that might explain some of the 15% gap on Sebudai's dps from yours is that they're swapping other shaman into his group for bloodlust. He gets it 3 times on that fight, lucky bastard.
#189SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
• Sebudai
Well, based on numbers found in this thread 1 CR = 2 AP. 4% crit is 88.4 CR so it would only take 176.8 AP to equal the benefit of 4% crit. Thus 200 AP is probably slightly better than 4% crit.

A few months ago I did some math based on my own WWS parses to assign a weighting to each stat. This is when I first discovered that +hit was overvalued, and that crit and attack power are normally a better use of item budget for us. The weightings I came up with a few months ago are very close to what you will find in this thread, and since these guys are probably better at math than I am, I just use theirs.

1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP. Decide how much you value stamina in comparison to those three stats and it will be very easy for you to figure out which items are upgrades for you.

Honestly it's best to not think in terms of stacking one stat. All three of these stats are good for us, and they all depend on eachother. You want all three of them, and what is important is the quantities involved. Yes, one of them might be the 'superior' use of item budget, but it's not like we get to design our own items. We have to use what Blizzard gives us. My hit rating isn't intentionally low because I think +hit sucks, that's just how it worked out for me by following the above stat weightings.

The randomness of drops had an impact aswell because I don't hold out for the statistically best upgrade. If an item is an upgrade, I'm sending on it, regardless of if there is a bigger upgrade out there.

Anyway, yeah we switch our Bloodlusts around like that a lot. Basically whoever benefits the most from it on any given encounter is going to get most, if not all of the Bloodlusts. Also, I've picked up quite a few upgrades very recently(bracer, ring, cloak and breastplate off the top of my head), so the gear in my armory profile is better than what I was using for those WWS parses I linked.

Last edited by Sebudai : 06/29/07 at 6:24 PM.
#190SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Tharas
Boot Enchants
For PvE, either Boars Speed or Cat's Swiftness are going to be big payoffs. Increased run speed is hands down the best enchant you can get for PvE. Check the following archived posts for the math: (note that these were calculated pre-TBC)
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=20
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=48
While I am leveling my Shaman (53 now) -- any comment on the utility of Figurine - Golden Hare (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21756)? -- a lot of Draenei Shaman are also going to be JC alts. Has anyone measured the passive runspeed of the trinket vs the boot enchant? (I'll do it tonight if not) I have some other random JC trinkets but nothing special yet, I think all good trinket drops are BRD and higher. +8 AP is the best "offensive" trinket thus far, and based on the math in those linked threads I think run speed trinket might be better than +8AP.

(I'll move this somewhere if it's appropriate, I just couldn't find a better place)
#191SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Myul
It provides the same bonus as any talent, metagem or enchant does - +8% running speed.

So it's just fine while leveling JC, having a third escape option beside stoneclaw + spirit wolf and [Nifty Stopwatch]. But it's not really better then putting Enchant Boots - Minor Speed on your feet or using [Defiler's Mail Greaves] (of any level).

But there are several trinkets, i would prefer over it:
Tidal Charm http://www.wowhead.com/?item=1404
Figurine - Truesilver Boar http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21763 (not because of the AP, but the boar is really strong for this level)
Rune of the Guard Captain - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=19120 (Horde)
Lifestone - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=833
Linken's Boomerang - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11905#00zc
Hand of Justice - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11815
#192SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
How would you value Haste Rating compared to CR/AP/HR - assuming your weaponspeed will remain over 1.5 with BL and flurry?
#193SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Leachim View Post
How would you value Haste Rating compared to CR/AP/HR - assuming your weaponspeed will remain over 1.5 with BL and flurry?
Probably something like 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 1 Haste Rating. According to math posted earlier in this thread it should actually only take 0.9 haste rating to equal the benefit of 2 AP/1 CR/1.43 HR, so I'm rounding up a little.
#194SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Beowolf
EquipOptimizer

Hey Tornhoof, GREAT WORK on setting up the filters! There's only one problem...when I import my armory profile, and lock the items and do an optimization for gems (your v12 did seem to indicate that different gems were more useful depending on gear)...the entire program crashes and has to be restarted. Any idea whats causing this?
#195SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tornhoof
You currently can not optimize Gems only, you shouldn't take the Gems too serious either, since they are only optimized locally (for each item individually), not globally for all the items combined.
#196SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
TradewindKlaatubarada
Few discussions I'd like to see:

Metagem choice?
Haste value as a stat?
T5 bonus VS T6 bonus?
2.7MH/2.7OH vs 2.7MH/2.8OH
+4STR/+4CR better than +8HIT at wich +hit threshold?
Tsunami Talisman VS Ashtongue Talisman

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 07/02/07 at 9:18 AM.
#197SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
Few discussions I'd like to see:

Metagem choice?
Haste value as a stat?
T5 bonus VS T6 bonus?
2.7MH/2.7OH vs 2.7MH/2.8OH
+4STR/+4CR better than +8HIT at wich +hit threshold?
Tsunami Talisman VS Ashtongue Talisman of Valor
I'm sure you already know the answer to at least 3 of those questions by this point in the discussion.

Metagem - generally accepted as 3% Crit Dmg > Haste effect > soul shard gem > stam/stun resist

I believe we are treating haste as a 0.9 or 1.0 weight on stats.

The tiered bonuses I can't really speak of since I'm not up to that point yet, although the T5 2pc certainly has value for a player who plays to the hybrid/support style, less value to those who want to be a rogue in mail.

There is no detrimental effect that anyone is aware of from having an OH slower than the MH to the Windfury cycle, the only downside is that you lose the "bugged" flurry effect from having the same MH/OH speeds.

Str/Crit gems are always better than +8 Hit. No shaman should ever be using +8 Hit gems unless for some silly reason they chose not to grab the +9% Hit from talents.

The Ashtongue trinket was shown in the Itemization thread to have less AP bonus over time than the Bloodlust brooch did, so the Tsunami Talisman would likely be the better choice.
#198SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Wolflord
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
Few discussions I'd like to see:

a- Metagem choice?
b- Haste value as a stat?
c- T5 bonus VS T6 bonus?
d- 2.7MH/2.7OH vs 2.7MH/2.8OH
e- +4STR/+4CR better than +8HIT at wich +hit threshold?
f- Tsunami Talisman VS Ashtongue Talisman

a- As long as you happen to have 2 blue gems use Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, failing that Swift Skyfire.

b- One point of haste rating is worth about one point of strength (only 3 posts above yours).

c- T5 4piece is roghly 3-4% dps, T6 4piece is closer to 2%, though the gains from having 4 pieces of the superior tier 6 outweigh this.

d- Conclusions have been inconclusive.

e- The str/crit gem will ALWAYS be better for all levels of gear from zero hit rating to hit capped (unless youre not actually enh specced, just wanting to do some physical dps with your resto spec).

f- On a stand and deliver fight the Ashtongue Talisman looks like a 137AP which is far superior to the Tsunami Talisman. Edit:: or not. Depends on the uptime of the Tsunami AP buff, one proc every 70 seconds or more often would make the Tsunami better than the Ashtongue, any less would favour the Ashtongue (excuse my bad midnight maths).

edit:: Beaten by Malan.

Last edited by Wolflord : 07/02/07 at 9:30 AM. Reason: Bad midnight maths
#199SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Here's the original analysis done on the Ashtongue -
It's not that great. 50% to do 275 is basically 50% uptime, so a passive 137.5 AP. Compared to Bloodlust Brooch, which is a passive 72 that adds 278 for 20/120... 72+46.3=118.3ap. So it's actually only a 19 ap bonus over Bloodlust Brooch, and has the added downside of being less controllable; you can guarantee that the +278ap of the Brooch occurs during SR, boosting its output.

So actually... it's pretty damn bad for where it is in the game... barely an upgrade over a badge trinket.
Its an upgrade over the Bloodlust Brooch, but you lose the control over when the proc occurs.
#200SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
Please, check this:



http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5...izationry2.jpg

If you detect any flaw, tell me.
#251SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
According to theory at least. This all would require testing to verify.
#252SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
According to theory at least. This all would require testing to verify.
A man after my own heart ;-)

No thoughts yet on the flurry testing linked near the bottom of page 10, anyone?
#253SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
I could lie and tell you I understood your Flurry stuff Disquette but I wouldn't be very convincing.
#254SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2martin0641
I was comparing the new Vet boots with the weighted values and it seems one pair is worth 62 points and the other 64. I was aiming at 50% raid crit with 1900-2200 atk power between trinkets. I figured the massive amount of crits would outpace the seemingly small amount of damage gains from attack power, especially from WF damage. Especially when I gain so much attack from trinkets and buffs, I thought the crit itself during the 15-20 second trinket periods would be a really big boost. Is 28 attack power really worth .5 crit chance?
#255SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Hedin
If any1 is interested in 3 sec WF cooldown showing addon - try out my ACE2 WF3sec v0.4, btw lucky shamans with 1st tier5 set bonus will be surprised :-)

Last edited by Hedin : 07/04/07 at 2:49 AM.
#256SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
I don't like surprises, what's the surprise?
#257SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I could lie and tell you I understood your Flurry stuff Disquette but I wouldn't be very convincing.
The main thing it shows is that having 2 identical speed weapons doesn't show much (any) bonus over having weapons that are very different in speeds for the purposes of flurry uptime.
#258SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Hedin
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I don't like surprises, what's the surprise?
it just shows Invigorated cooldown in center of the screen when it's on
If you don't like the position try to edit core.lua
local x=0
local y=50

Last edited by Hedin : 07/05/07 at 4:47 AM.
#259SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
93 DPS 2.7 weapon does the same dps as 100 DPS 2.8 weapon when compared to a 2.7 mainhand.
Of course it's only a theory. The java script does not model procs like mongoose, dragonspine trophy, nor the proc of the 2.8 mace what is actually an increase in dps (stealing life does damage, not just healing)
But I wouldn't say the script is not useful at all. I'll try out a lot of weapon combinations.
#260SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Stigmata
Originally Posted by martin0641 View Post
I was comparing the new Vet boots with the weighted values and it seems one pair is worth 62 points and the other 64. I was aiming at 50% raid crit with 1900-2200 atk power between trinkets. I figured the massive amount of crits would outpace the seemingly small amount of damage gains from attack power, especially from WF damage. Especially when I gain so much attack from trinkets and buffs, I thought the crit itself during the 15-20 second trinket periods would be a really big boost. Is 28 attack power really worth .5 crit chance?
50% seems high, ofc no one would turn down having that much crit, but how can u get it even close to that without sacrificing all hit/ap ?
#261SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
◊ Malan
I'm somewhat curious, Disquette/Pater or anyone else, have we modeled the effect of hitting SS every 10 sec when its lit versus only hitting it when a WF CD is up?

Btw I ran your sim today Pater and it matched EXACTLY the DPS I put out on Mag tonight. Well done sir.

Last edited by Malan : 07/03/07 at 9:20 PM.
#262SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
What is Mag's armor mitigation?
#263SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Hedin
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I'm somewhat curious, Disquette/Pater or anyone else, have we modeled the effect of hitting SS every 10 sec when its lit versus only hitting it when a WF CD is up?
I see u tried my addon? :-)

Last edited by Hedin : 07/04/07 at 2:49 AM.
#264SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Spooky
Thank you for posting this excellent source of information Malan and thank you for those who drafted and contributed to the theorycraft. My eyes were opened on several matters and I know my raid performance will improve as a result.
#265SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Magna_FA
Just wanted to put up some data from my testing I did today. I had the Syphon of the Nathrezim (2.8 speed 100dps) from BT and just received a Netherbane (2.6 speed 93dps) and after reading this thread started to wonder which would be better in my main hand, considering so many people saying that you should always put the slower weapon in your off hand to minimize wf procs. But in this case, there is a 7 dps difference in the 2 weapons as well as the speed difference.

So I took my fugly neon axe and went to the Blasted Lands and beat on those level 55 unkillable mobs. I did a run of .5 mill damage with the slower weapon in my main hand, then took the dps measurement from Violation (trying to keep both str and agi totems up at all times), then again but with the faster weapon as suggested in my main hand. Then repeated those 2 tests again to double check and average. I could have probably done it more to be more accurate, but I was already seeing a trend. In this case, it seemed the slower, higher dps, higher damage range weapon was best used in the main hand, rather than having the slow weapon in the off hand. I know it's probably not too accurate, but the difference was on average of the 2 tests, 34 dps difference in favor of the slow weapon in the main hand.

So to double check this, I used Pater's java simulator and put in my weapons and something along the lines of my gear (couldn't remember the exact in raid values, so I just guessed, none the less, no matter the values, it's close enough to illustrate the issue.) And this is what I got:

------------------------------------ ESCS -------------------------------------
-- INPUT DATA -- 
Player AP=2400, H=20.0%, C=36.0%, Haste=0.0%.  SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=170-317/2.6s, OH=196-365/2.8s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- 
MH Wh: Swings=177151 | M=(5.5%), D=(6.5%), G=(24.9%), C=(36.1%), H=(27.1%)
OH Wh: Swings=164301 | M=(5.5%), D=(6.4%), G=(25.1%), C=(36.1%), H=(26.9%)
MH WF: Swings= 70270 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.7%), H=(57.8%)
OH WF: Swings= 58622 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.9%), H=(57.6%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.9%), H=(57.6%)
OH SS: Swings= 33654 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.2%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.7%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 342175512 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(34.5%) | G=(16%)[356-466], C=(61%)[948-1243], H=(23%)[476-622]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.6%) | G=(16%)[195-258], C=(61%)[522-688], H=(23%)[261- 344]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.9%) | G=(never),        C=(55%)[1551-1963], H=(45%)[775-981]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.3%) | G=(never),        C=(55%)[968-1202], H=(45%)[484-601]
MH SS: Dmg=(07.7%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[949-1243], H=(44%)[476-622]
OH SS: Dmg=(04.0%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[521-688], H=(44%)[260-344]

Flurried white swings:  MH=85.9%, OH=85.9%

DPS = 950.5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------ ESCS -------------------------------------
-- INPUT DATA -- 
Player AP=2400, H=20.0%, C=36.0%, Haste=0.0%.  SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=196-365/2.8s, OH=170-317/2.6s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- 
MH Wh: Swings=164272 | M=(5.4%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(36.1%), H=(27.0%)
OH Wh: Swings=177137 | M=(5.6%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(35.8%), H=(27.0%)
MH WF: Swings= 63100 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(36.2%), H=(57.4%)
OH WF: Swings= 65392 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.7%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.3%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.4%)
OH SS: Swings= 33634 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.8%), H=(57.7%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 344599700 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(35.0%) | G=(16%)[392-516], C=(61%)[1041-1375], H=(23%)[521-688]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.1%) | G=(16%)[178-233], C=(61%)[474-622], H=(23%)[238- 311]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.5%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[1698-2165], H=(44%)[849-1082]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.4%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[888-1092], H=(44%)[444-546]
MH SS: Dmg=(08.4%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[1046-1375], H=(44%)[521-688]
OH SS: Dmg=(03.6%) | G=(never),        C=(55%)[475-622], H=(45%)[237-311]

Flurried white swings:  MH=85.8%, OH=85.9%

DPS = 957.2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not the dps difference I saw in game on a level 55, but again, the slower weapon in the off hand did not win out. So this goes to show ya, do your own testing on your own circumstances before just throwing that slower weapon in your off hand. In this case, the dps difference out weighed the gain from the weapon speed difference.

I'd like to hear other people's responses and testing in this area, as well as any thoughts and ideas.
#266SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Freyalis
Well after running Pater's sim for a while it pretty much confirms what we postulated before in that Potency == Fiery for DPS.

Average over five runs Potency added 9.4 DPS (simulated by adding 40 AP)

Fiery averaged out to 9.52 DPS.

I simulated fiery by calculating proc chance (27% for a 2.7 speed weapon like Planar Edge)
then obtaining number of procs from total MH attacks

Fiery MH = 264552 Attacks @ 27% proc chance

[top] 71429 Fiery Attacks @ 48 avg dmg per for 3,428,592 dmg


9.52 DPS increase

Fiery average damage assumes
* +10% Coe
* +15% Imp Scorch
* +5% Misery
* 1.025 Crit modifier (5% for +50% dmg)
* 0.87 Resist rate modifier assuming Natures Guidance.

So Technically i would say that Potency is better as it doesn't rely on outside variables in order to perform. And of course either are stripped by Crusader or Mongoose.
#267SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Brum
Might want to add that War Stomp and heals reset both swing timers, even if it's an invigorated LHW.
#268SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Celetroll
Stacking haste for shaman

Got a question that I can´t quite seem to find answer. While we all agree that haste is good for shamans, then question - how good is exactly stacking different haste - remains bit unclear.

Source of my hesitation is item budget values. As haste does not stacks on 1+1=2 principle, wouldn´t we be better off not stacking haste? Let me explain.

Let´s imagine that we have two identical dps output equipment for the same slot. One with HR, other with CR/AP or what ever. Now, when we pick up another HR item and stack it up with our current one (don´t forget flurry as well), then would HR stacking formula render our previously equal HR item inferior in dps output to AP/CR/HR item, that stacks on 1+1=2 bases? Since you get full benefit from AP/CR/HR but only partial from HR stacks. So when we weight and HR item, it must have way superior dps stats when compared with a single item?

That question is becoming more and more important to me every day, since we are raiding BT. Atm i could apply for http://www.thottbot.com/i32749, but I cant really figure out, is it worth the dkp or not. As well as should I use battle drums while bloodlusted or wait until bloodlust wears off, what gives more overall dps?
#269SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Boro
Pater's Calculator

Sorry if I missed the link to this earlier in this thread but could somebody provide it for me please.
#270SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
Magna, this is acknowledged in the "Itemizing Enhancement" thread. Having a slow main hand is important as well.

Malan, not to take away from Pater's sim at all, but about it matching your dps figures... This would assume you had 100% time on target for Mag, had 0 weapon procs, no Heroism, and never used earthshock/flameshock... And that Mag, after any curses, fairy fire, sunders, etc, happens to have exactly the armor reduction that you have in the sim.

If you really want to show something cool, do the blasted lands tests (armor value = 23% mitigation) and match it up to the sim when using nothing special, then add more variables as you go (storm strike, windfury).
#271SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Brum View Post
Might want to add that War Stomp and heals reset both swing timers, even if it's an invigorated LHW.
Well the war stomp I understand since its a cast time, but do we have combat log confirmation of the Invigorated reset?

Originally Posted by Boro View Post
Sorry if I missed the link to this earlier in this thread but could somebody provide it for me please.
Its on the first post of the thread, down toward the bottom.

Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Malan, not to take away from Pater's sim at all, but about it matching your dps figures... This would assume you had 100% time on target for Mag, had 0 weapon procs, no Heroism, and never used earthshock/flameshock...
Oops forgot all about that.
#272SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Khlysti
Invigorated does reset swing timer, I can go out and get a log report if needed, but casting an invigorated lhw right before a mh swing is due results in me waiting ~2 sec (from when the lhw was cast) for the next mh swing.

As to the comment on stacking haste, the game simply adds the haste ratings together and then applies them, so it is indeed 1+1=2, were it to apply them sequentially (like it does with flurry/heroism over something hasted by rating) then it would actually give more dps not less.
#273SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
What about the enhance shaman who take Nature's Swiftness, does using that reset the timer as well?
#274SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
What about the enhance shaman who take Nature's Swiftness, does using that reset the timer as well?
I had a 0/13/x build for a while and healing with NS definitely resets the swing timer.
#275SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
• Valoran
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
What about the enhance shaman who take Nature's Swiftness, does using that reset the timer as well?
AFAIK, this is the normal behaviour when a global cooldown is used.

Last edited by Valoran : 07/04/07 at 7:14 PM.
#326SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its been discussed a few times. To be honest I'd never even heard of it (I think most people call it twisting) until the xpack and all the Alliance shaman were the ones pushing it forward. I've no intention of trying it out. I already feel like I'm waiting on GCD quite a bit and adding that twisting into a 10 second rotation is going to be crazy. Trying to fit 2 totem drops + 2 Shocks + SS into a 10 second period is going to fill the entire period with a GCD. The mana cost alone is enough to dissuade me without even thinking of the benefit - there's no way I could sustain dropping 2 totems every 10 seconds over a 10 minute fight.
I am on the same line of thought.
While it may be a boost, I cant see why I would ever be arsed to do it.

Last edited by Stigmata : 07/06/07 at 2:23 PM.
#327SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ilmatar
I am a non-totem weaver, but I tried it for Gruul last time (well for a little bit) just to see if it was as annoying as I thought it would be.

There was visible benefit (roughly judging by ktm), between the time I tried weaving threat/wf and the time that I just ran WF. However, dancing around the cave ins, trying to keep shocks going, and shatters, I gave this up after I hit my first Shamanic Rage. My mana was getting eaten up faster (No more 5s ticks), and I just wasn't comfortable with the mana levels I was sustaining, the delay on shocks due to GCD and the chaining effect that had on SS (when using SS to try to proc WF after wfcd).

The fight just felt more chaotic to me. Part of that was just, obviously, not having a bunch of experience twisting totems. The threat benefit was there, but I really only saw the Arms warrior get a real win from that, because early on in the fight she had some spikes. Overall, it wasn't something that I really think is a great tactic.
#328SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
I get nervous if I get below 50% mana - I like to have a big reserve to spam heals on myself for when I inevitably pull something I shouldn't be pulling, and I am prone to throw heals at people to help out when I can.
#329SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Aett
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
I am a non-totem weaver, but I tried it for Gruul last time (well for a little bit) just to see if it was as annoying as I thought it would be.

There was visible benefit (roughly judging by ktm), between the time I tried weaving threat/wf and the time that I just ran WF. However, dancing around the cave ins, trying to keep shocks going, and shatters, I gave this up after I hit my first Shamanic Rage. My mana was getting eaten up faster (No more 5s ticks), and I just wasn't comfortable with the mana levels I was sustaining, the delay on shocks due to GCD and the chaining effect that had on SS (when using SS to try to proc WF after wfcd).

The fight just felt more chaotic to me. Part of that was just, obviously, not having a bunch of experience twisting totems. The threat benefit was there, but I really only saw the Arms warrior get a real win from that, because early on in the fight she had some spikes. Overall, it wasn't something that I really think is a great tactic.
I only use tranquil air on very threat sensitive fights. I find I'm not really ever threat capped except when I'm using shamanistic rage, bugged judgment of light (320 healing procs), and heroism at the same time, in which case my treat sometimes spikes on omen up above 1300 tps; a number that I'm obviously not capable of generating with damage alone.

I did use TA on void reaver last night with a great deal of success, I was able to go all out the entire fight and came close pulling aggro at the very end. We have our melee dps stay in the entire fight instead of stepping out to avoid poundings. My dps warrior did unfortunately die to aggro with less than a minute left in the fight.

EDIT: Took the question to a more appropriate thread.

Last edited by Aett : 07/06/07 at 4:38 PM.
#330SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Hedin
Hourglass of the Unraveller - +300 AP for 10sec, 10% proc on crit (3% chance to proc with 30% crit rate) 45sec cooldown
I am sorry but since i made addon for collecting cooldowns i newer got it to proc faster then 50 seconds, and i raid a lot...
#331SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
Well that's the official WoWHead.com data for it and it agrees with all of the other major data mining sites.
#332SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Shabadu
What is everyone's experience with Shrouding Potions? After pulling aggro on VR a couple weeks back one of the guild alchemists sent me a couple stacks and told me to stop dying. Using them for a week on Teron and such where I have a problem with coming close to the threat cap seemed to make a difference, but I didn't have any hard numbers on it. The single best time I've found to use them is in the first 20 or so seconds of a fight so you start at very low threat with a slightly higher ceiling to deal with WF's unpredictability.

As for my latest experiences, I was forced to twist TA/WF during the last 20% of our latest anetheron to bloodlust my group. I was pretty much capped, while my rogues and warriors were safely behind. Managed to keep DPSing through it coming very close to pulling aggro, and I probably would've without twisting it. I would never consider it for a long term solution, I felt really pressured by the GCD and watching Omen, enough so that it wouldn't be worth the marginal gains.
#333SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malacort
Originally Posted by Aett View Post
One thing I've been trying recently, and I haven't really seen it discussed anywhere, is totem weaving (not my name for it, but I like it). I basically use this macro:

/castsequence reset=10 Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem
I speced into both reduced totem cost and mental quickness and found that when everything is going right with procs and timing, I can sustain totem weaving + flame shock every 12 seconds indefinitely. If I run low on mana I can always just stop shocking or leave Windfury down until shamanistic rage is up again.

My group is almost always me, a warrior, and three rogues. Every so often we get a feral druid. I've gotten no reports of windfury going down while using this macro (when I started I asked my group to pay attention to it), and my group seems to like it quite a bit. I'm going off the assumption that the totem weaving alone would be more raid dps than me using that mana to spam shocks.

I was wondering if anyone had any insight into whether this is truly a good idea. Seems like a better alternative to the flame/earth shock rotation that seems to be the consensus.
I posted these 2 macros in the totem thread, I use them all the time instead of shocking, as I'm there to make the whole group's dps better, not just my own.

MACRO 14 "G/WF" INV_Misc_QuestionMark
/castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, stopmacro;
END
MACRO 15 "TA/WF" INV_Misc_QuestionMark
/castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Tranquil Air Totem, stopmacro;
END
#334SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Myul
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=28548

-800 Threat, sadly it has a 2 minutes cooldown. Seems not worthy like all the trinkets excluding [Prism of Inner Calm] (if/when it's working as intended).
#335SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
I wonder if anyone can help me with the following:
I usually time my Shamanistic Rage in combination with Lust for Battle (278 ap from Bloodlus brooch trinket) and Blood Fury (orc racial, 282 ap). Now Id like to get these three actions into a single macro but failed in typing the proper macro for it so far.
Anyone here can give the right Macro for that?

Note: The order of actions = Blood Fury -> Bloodlust Brooch -> Shamanistic Rage
Bloodlust Brooch is equipped in my first trinketslot.

Thnx!
#336SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2songah
the macro is

/stopcasting
/cast blood fury
/stopcasting
/use bloodlust brooch
/stopcasting
/cast shamanistic rage


you can use this same thing to insta trinket/em/ns/cl just use /stopcasting and use or cast whatever you want in order
#337SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Kirion
Originally Posted by songah View Post
the macro is

/stopcasting
/cast blood fury
/stopcasting
/use bloodlust brooch
/stopcasting
/cast shamanistic rage


you can use this same thing to insta trinket/em/ns/cl just use /stopcasting and use or cast whatever you want in order
Blood Fury starts gcd isnt it? this macro wont work.


i'd write something like this

/castsequence reset=15 blood fury, bloodlust brooch, shamanistic rage

mash 3 times

note: this will not work if something on cd...

another version will be

/use bloodlust brooch
/castrandom blood fury, shamanistic rage

again you need to mash it

Last edited by Kirion : 07/07/07 at 8:13 AM.
#338SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
Originally Posted by Kirion View Post
Blood Fury starts gcd isnt it? this macro wont work.


i'd write something like this

/castsequence reset=15 blood fury, bloodlust brooch, shamanistic rage

mash 3 times

note: this will not work if something on cd...

another version will be

/use bloodlust brooch
/castrandom blood fury, shamanistic rage

again you need to mash it
No, the macro he gave DOES work, as trinkets afaik dont start the gbc
So /cast Blood Fury
/use Bloodlust Brooch
/cast Shamanistic Rage

Thnx for the help!
#339SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Celetroll
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
#340SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
I believe you can customize Scrolling Combat Text to show specific gains always as for example message or critical, making it easier to spot. The readme shows alot of information about this and how to do it.
#341SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
If you use SCT, find sct_event_config.lua and writhe in this line:
[21] = {name="!!IMBA T5!!", search="You gain Invigorated", r=0/256, g=256/256, b=100/256, frame=SCT.MSG, class={"Shaman"}},
You need to enable custom events ingame:
/sct menu
find Animation/Misc. Options
#342SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
What is everyone's experience with Shrouding Potions? After pulling aggro on VR a couple weeks back one of the guild alchemists sent me a couple stacks and told me to stop dying.
Meh. My raid leader is now encouraging me to pull aggro and die so that I can just a get a threat wipe.
#343SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Idioteque
I find they key to low threat generation is well timed shamanistic rage and totem weaving with it, also dropping traq at the start of the fight for 1-2 mins also helps.
#344SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
I've had decent results with just ragging on our tanks till their TPS improves.
#345SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Meh. My raid leader is now encouraging me to pull aggro and die so that I can just a get a threat wipe.
While my raid leader doesn't encourage me to pull aggro and die, often times, on fights like VR its the only thing that can be done. Have to love the Shaman's Feign Death.

Also, up until now I haven't played around with totem weaving, I think I am going to mess around with the Windfury / Tranquil Air mix a bit and see if that helps out at all. Honestly I think the mana could be better spent some where else, but lower DPS is better the no DPS I suppose.
#346SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Patrik
I used to have great problems with aggro as well of course, but I have to say, that after our recent nerf, our tanks are way ahead of me threat-wise. So if any of you is experiencing this kind of problem now, i'd suggest providing your tanks with link to some basic tanking mechanics forum (or some equip - I didn't believe Stigmata he has no threat problems at all on Maghteridon for example, but after our tanks got few items, its the same for me).

Of course things get nasty on Void Reaver for example, but Big5 combo (BoS, TA, Subtlety enchant, Fetish of the Sand Reaver and Prism of Inner Calm) still works like a charm and I can go full damage.
#347SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
Theres no need to pull agro as an enhancement shaman fighting Void Reaver simply becouse that encounter isnt about enhancement shamans (or any meleeclass for that matter) maximising their dps - its about a raid surviving while doing a certain amount of stable, reasonable dps.
Threat rly isnt an issue any longer imo, except for a few fights (for example gruul, morogrim, magtheridon) where its there for a reason, namely preventing the fight from becoming even more easymode than it already is.
So for any encounter where you hit a threat-cap: just slow down your dps, its ok, its working as intended and theres no need for more of your dps to win the battle. The majority of current encounters however, does not suffer from any of these threat-issues - sadly enough they have other ways of capping our dps output to a level that is fitting for our role as support-dps.
#348SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
I think out of our current killable bosses, Void Reaver is the only one I have any real difficulty with threat. While I can stay alive through 75% of the fight, the last 25% or so I usually start capping out and its harder for the tanks to push past me, not impossible, just harder. Usually at the 25% mark I either remove the Windfury enchants from my weapons or die.

As for fights like Morogrim and Magtheridon, I never have problems with threat, ever. I can push my dps to its max and don't have problems. Of course at the moment my weapons are a bit on the fast side, but even once I have the slower weapons I don't think it will be a problem. We have some pretty amazing tanks.

One thing I had completely forgot about, is the Subtlety enchant to cloak, going to have to get that.
#349SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2ikillyouheal
I've glared through this whole thread, but I couldnt find any post(Maybe I'm just too tired for this at the moment) about 4p Gladiator gear(Mostly s2)?

(4) Set: Reduces the cooldown of your Stormstrike ability by 1 sec.

Wouldnt this result in 10% more total SS damage done? Would this be worth considering for a raiding shaman to use?

Anyone that's in a better shape to try to calculate how much DPS this would end up as (Keeping in mind that this would result in raid nature damage getting a bit more boost aswell.)
#350SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
Off the top of my head I'd say you'd risk losing more DPS than you'd gain since there's a lot of itemization points spent on Resilience, and the 2pc bonus is providing little to no benefit in a raid.
#351SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• ikillyouheal
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Off the top of my head I'd say you'd risk losing more DPS than you'd gain since there's a lot of itemization points spent on Resilience, and the 2pc bonus is providing little to no benefit in a raid.
I'd figured as much about the 2p bonus, I guess it's really a matter of where you are in gear progression, (T6 would not be worth switching out, but maybe Karazhan epics?)
#352SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Patonus
ok, I've read this thread and read some of the player feedback and I just want to confirm what I did was the best choice.

I used to have 1446 AP, 212 HR and 24.45% Crit.

Since then I have changed my gems around to reflect 1472 AP, 188 Hit and 25.99 Crit.


Was this the right choices? (basically changed the +8hit gems to the +4crit/+4str gems) or did I make a mistake at understanding priority stats?
#353SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
Yes it was the right choice. I actually made the same change recently, I was sitting about 3 hit rating below the Hit Cap (25.6% I believe - with talents of course). Recently changed hit gems for 4crt/4str gems or 8 str gems.

I've had a few people on my server ask me about a certain Hit level they should be aiming for, generally tell them there isn't one but 170-180 is a nice number. Right around the 19-20% hit range. I can't say for sure this is the correct area, a lot of the enhancement shamans here raid with much less and are further progressed then I am, its just what I aim for and like.
#354SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Brum
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
You can use Power Auras to display an image on any part of the screen while the buff is active
#355SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
TotemLover
Removed.

Last edited by TotemLover : 08/08/07 at 6:03 AM.
#356SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2songah
its been said wf on warrior/combat rogues are much much more beneficial than wrath of air. If you guys have a enhance sham, put them in the melee group if not i suggest you stay with melee for str and wf but switch out to another group just to drop mana tide.
#357SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
Hi, i have browsed the 15 pages of this thread that i was linked and i am finding it Very informative. Thanks for all the hard work you fellas have done with this theory crafting and i am hoping it will help me more in the future.

Although before reading this thread i think i have made some bad choices in the way of gear.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...issan&n=Tilley

If some one could take a browse over that and tell me where i should improve although i am pretty sure i know where, for example. 1.5 offhand is a bad idea and i will work for the 2.6 speed offhand. I replaced some gems with +8 str over +16 ap but kept some of the major ones like +20 AP because by my calculations it was better then +8 str. I have done this with a few gem slots, Also my trinkets need replacing but i think they are the main issues.

Any advice would be much appreciated and any item recommendations that are easily obtainable would also be much appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
#358SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Hedin
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
Have you tried my addon?
#359SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tilley View Post
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...issan&n=Tilley

If some one could take a browse over that and tell me where i should improve although i am pretty sure i know where, for example. 1.5 offhand is a bad idea and i will work for the 2.6 speed offhand. I replaced some gems with +8 str over +16 ap but kept some of the major ones like +20 AP because by my calculations it was better then +8 str. I have done this with a few gem slots, Also my trinkets need replacing but i think they are the main issues.

Any advice would be much appreciated and any item recommendations that are easily obtainable would also be much appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
Your talent tree is a mess. You didn't pick up Unleashed Rage which means you are now a DW DPS shaman that offers little to a group over a resto shaman except that you still can't heal worth a damn because you don't have the deep Resto talents. You need to at a minimum pick up Unleashed Rage. I'd recommend dropping 2H Weapons and Healing Way and probably NS to make up the points you need for that. I can't even fathom raiding without Shamanistic Rage so I'm not sure how you're getting along without it.

Why is the Violet Eye badge the best trinket that you have for that slot? You didn't pick up the Bladefist trinket at least from Hellfire Peninsula?

+150 Health to Chest is a Tank enchant. You need to use +6 Stats instead.

Your weapon enchants are horrid - I'm hoping those are only because you're working on the mats for some real enchants.
#360SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Wandre
Originally Posted by Tilley View Post
Hi, i have browsed the 15 pages of this thread that i was linked and i am finding it Very informative. Thanks for all the hard work you fellas have done with this theory crafting and i am hoping it will help me more in the future.

Although before reading this thread i think i have made some bad choices in the way of gear.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...issan&n=Tilley

If some one could take a browse over that and tell me where i should improve although i am pretty sure i know where, for example. 1.5 offhand is a bad idea and i will work for the 2.6 speed offhand. I replaced some gems with +8 str over +16 ap but kept some of the major ones like +20 AP because by my calculations it was better then +8 str. I have done this with a few gem slots, Also my trinkets need replacing but i think they are the main issues.

Any advice would be much appreciated and any item recommendations that are easily obtainable would also be much appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
Adding to the above I'd look at switching up your offhand to a slow 2.6 speed weapon. You're in around the same boat as me right now having a nice high offhand DPS wep that's too fast. Slow down that offhand so you can stop eating your WF procs. It looks like you do a bit of PVP so I recommend picking up an arena one-hand wep. You'll probably do much closer to rogue DPS with just that.

I've only been enhance for 2 weeks now and my DPS is sorely lacking because of the wep in particular. It's really painful to see WF proc for around 2.5k-3k damage on main hand and a weak 1k-1.5k on offhand. And to see it many times over because of the speed is just that much worse.

Another thing is try gemming up your hit rating. AP is important only if you're actually connecting with your target. Pick up that hit rating to at least 150 through gems if you can and add some AP/crit after you hit that cap. It helped me a LOT.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Tilley
During Karazhan raid's i seem to be in the top 3 of the DPS at all times against opponents that out gear me by a mile. I am currently testing some DPS theory's in blasted lands on some mobs and i am hoping to pick up the PvP 1 hander before the Arena 1 hander to confirm these theory's.

And a reply to the above post, I was informed by several raiders that its mandatory to have 8,000 health unbuffed which was my goal. Also the weapon enchants were for free i was helping someone level up while i get my mongoose. My talent tree is such a mess becouse im still required to heal in gruuls where as i DPS in Karazhan so its kind of a mix and match situation at the moment.

Last edited by Tilley : 07/08/07 at 3:23 PM.
#362SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Wandre View Post
try gemming up your hit rating.
You need to read a bit more of the testing presented in this thread regarding this.
#363SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
I have read that +8 STR Is the most beneficial gem so when i could i tried adding that to my Armour.
#364SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
Running a test on some mobs in the outland using a DPS meter addon i discovered i did over a 70 second fight.

Gladiator's Left Ripper
Binds when picked up
Off Hand Fist Weapon
95 - 178 Damage Speed 1.50
(91.0 damage per second)
+21 Stamina
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 9.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 15.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 10.
Equip: Increases attack power by 28.

I sustained 919 DPS over the fight.

and with

Colossal War Axe of Power
Binds when equipped
One-Hand Axe
94 - 176 Damage Speed 2.60
(51.9 damage per second)
+38 Attack Power
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 63

I sustained 929 DPS.

All the variables used were the same each fight finishing in exactly 70 seconds.

Disappointing that i wasted my arena points on this weapon before i considered the mechanics of a shaman.

Also i do not have any solid math on the situation however, I noticed that i did roughly 20-40 more DPS on each fight by using stormstrike whenever the Windfury cool down was up instead of just button mashing it.
#365SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
Just a thought, I would have a discussion with your Raid Leader and officers about your roll in raids. If they are so short on healers that they need to make an Enhancement shaman heal they need to do something about it.

I personally will carry my healing gear around and if they are wiping on something because we are short just a little extra healing I will help out, but I do nothing more then throw an occasional small heal at someone if I see them low most of the time. Using that Hybrid spec, you suck as both a support healer and the support dps roll your suppose to fall into as an Enhancement.

You may be able to put out some great numbers for your own DPS, but not taking Unleashed Rage is just silly, not to mention Shamanistic Rage. Both those talents are pure gold for us, the first one being pure gold for the melee classes in your group.

As for the gems, Inscribed Noble Topaz is decent as well.

Edit: And your an Orc, get some Axes!
#366SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tidalclyps
After looking over all this, there is some really great information here. What I am curious to see is some different ideas from people as to the "perfect" pve gear set up from all available gear. Rank maybe your top 2 items in each slot.

Talking all the way threw BT and HS. I'm sure people have a lot of different ideas and everyone says that you need x amount of hit, crit, ap. But how about compiling it all in a full set, make the gear work to actually achieve those perfect stats. Personally why my goals are is 1900ap, 29%crit and between 180-220 hit. ATM I'm sacrificing hit for strength and crit (also waiting on a decent offhand. Will most likely pick up the MerGlad mace on tuesday).
#367SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tilley View Post
I was informed by several raiders that its mandatory to have 8,000 health unbuffed
Not really. I have around 7k unbuffed and have no trouble, and there are shaman with less than that who raid just fine. Now as I understand it there are some fights in Black Temple that require everyone in the raid to have 9k health minimum, but looking at your gear right now you don't need to be so worried about that.

Your guild is doing no good by having you split your talents so badly between Resto and Enhance. You'd be better off going full Resto if you aren't picking up Unleashed Rage.
#368SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
I'm sure the best weapon to use in main hand and offhand is Syphon of the Nathrezim. There was an "Enhancement shaman lootzor" link somewhere to see the best 5 items in each slot.
#369SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
Thanks for all the great advice i guess its one of those. I am enhancement or i am not raiding situations.. I will begin warming the bench
#370SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps View Post
After looking over all this, there is some really great information here. What I am curious to see is some different ideas from people as to the "perfect" pve gear set up from all available gear. Rank maybe your top 2 items in each slot.

Talking all the way threw BT and HS. I'm sure people have a lot of different ideas and everyone says that you need x amount of hit, crit, ap. But how about compiling it all in a full set, make the gear work to actually achieve those perfect stats. Personally why my goals are is 1900ap, 29%crit and between 180-220 hit. ATM I'm sacrificing hit for strength and crit (also waiting on a decent offhand. Will most likely pick up the MerGlad mace on tuesday).
Here's the top 10 items in each slot.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

I'm amazed of how many people reply to this post without reading the OP, almost all the info is right there.
#371SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tidalclyps
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
Here's the top 10 items in each slot.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

I'm amazed of how many people reply to this post without reading the OP, almost all the info is right there.
Never said I didn't read this entire post and I've seen lootzor. Thats a pretty easy answer for what I asked. I for one am not going to punch in some numbers into a program and blindly take what it says. Sure that program may help a bit, but really take a look at some of that gear.
#372SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Xoya
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps View Post
Sure that program may help a bit, but really take a look at some of that gear.
.. we have .. what's wrong with it?
#373SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps View Post
Never said I didn't read this entire post and I've seen lootzor. Thats a pretty easy answer for what I asked. I for one am not going to punch in some numbers into a program and blindly take what it says. Sure that program may help a bit, but really take a look at some of that gear.
I don't think lootzor has any hidden agenda, it just scores items based on the stat values you give it. If there's something lacking in the gear that scores well, you need to look at what you were asking for and adjust your criteria accordingly.
#374SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps View Post
I for one am not going to punch in some numbers into a program and blindly take what it says.
But you'll ask us and blindly take what we say? I'm not sure what the difference is, especially since a lot of guys will simply say "here's the lootzor values I use".
#375SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tidalclyps
No, I know what I want. I'm just curious what everyone else's top Items are. I don't see why this is causing an argument/discussion or confusion what I'm asking. Was hoping to start some sort of discussion as to x-item vs x-item and people's reasons for liking one thing over another. We aren't supposed to have all the exact same gear.
#401SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Leachim you are right, I never do things like dps-ing myself to death. Having 2 points in improved reincarnation is more like an opportunity to continue doing a boss if you make an error. I usually don't ankh up to resurrect people faster, only if I'm the last one who can do it. In overall I favorize putting 19 points to resto instead of elemental.

An other question: Do you really think 2% threat reduction to cloak is better than 12 agility? Someone mentioned it's good to have. 12 agility is almost 0.6% crit with kings, I don't think -2% threat matters a lot.
#402SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Leachim you are right, I never do things like dps-ing myself to death. Having 2 points in improved reincarnation is more like an opportunity to continue doing a boss if you make an error. I usually don't ankh up to resurrect people faster, only if I'm the last one who can do it. In overall I favorize putting 19 points to resto instead of elemental.

An other question: Do you really think 2% threat reduction to cloak is better than 12 agility? Someone mentioned it's good to have. 12 agility is almost 0.6% crit with kings, I don't think -2% threat matters a lot.
Well, it depends on the fight. If you're extremly threat-limited, then the reduction means at least 1% more dam that you can do, which is better than 0.6% crit. But on the other hand, the reduction is always wasted, when you're not threat-limited, while 12 agi is not.

Sentinel
#403SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Leachim View Post
the main goal of an enhancement shaman is to SUPPORT the MAIN-dps - not to be nr 1 in dmg themselves.
While your first statement may be true its just as bad to ignore the fact that you have the potential to put out large amounts of damage. And I've never asked for buffs but after ankhing I normally receive them if its not a strain.

Dieing during an encounter isn't just about epeen. I've become threat capped to the point where even auto attacking is going to yank - forcing me to stop hitting the mob and dropping the Unleashed Rage buff from the group. Your post above makes it sound like we'd be out of the fight for minutes at a time. At most I've been out of the fight for 4-5 seconds and can then go full bore.
#404SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wolflord
Originally Posted by Negative View Post
Wolflord, you're not factoring in the hit you can drop due to your extra +3% hit talent. By dropping that extra 3% hit off your gear in favor of crit/str, you'll be increasing your DPS by more than your shocks would.
There is no such thing as hit that I can 'drop'. The correct amount of hit rating to aim for as an enhancement shaman is 'whatever happens to be on the gear'.


Panny: I definitely agree on the +spellhit side of things, if I ever find myself in a situation where the guild lacks primary interrupters then Ill gladly respec to resto. However for now the extent of my interrupt responsibility is 'whatever you want' on Aran, and as such 3% spell hit works out to be nothing more than a 3% increase on the tiny 10% of elemental damage that I do.


Nemaa: I definitely think its worth having a Subtlety enchanted cloak on hand. DPS cloaks are many and numerous, so I think it would be well worth enchanting every second cloak you get with 12agi, the alternate with Subtlety just to have that option.


Malan: I think all mention of the 'golden ratio' of stats should be removed from your original post, it seems pretty much canon that hit rating should never be prioritised over or equal to strength and crit, regardless of gear levels.
#405SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I've become threat capped to the point where even auto attacking is going to yank - forcing me to stop hitting the mob and dropping the Unleashed Rage buff from the group.
Try changing weapons to two grey daggers to keep up unleashed rage but stop doing considerable threat. You can use itemrack or stancesets to bind a key for quick weapon swapping.

Wolflord: I have a Muck-Covered Drape enchanted with -2% threat but I never had the feeling that I should use it.
#406SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)

Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night) but I am threat-capped from just autoattacking + SS, so mana's not a concern there. (It might be if I had two piece Tier 5, as I would definitely take advantage of the instant-cast LHW on that fight. Even though it would increase my threat, I sometimes have to run out for pounding and/or pop a healthstone when I'm getting scared that I won't get healed.) I think if our 4th tank were better, I would not be quite so threat-capped, he really can't keep up with the first 3.
Dunno if you're still browsing Rob but I would highly suggest you just go balls to the wall on VR pull aggro die and ankh up, you pulling aggro on VR has no raid consequences at all, also tell your healers to keep you up because melee own the VR DPS :]
#407SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Try changing weapons to two grey daggers to keep up unleashed rage but stop doing considerable threat. You can use itemrack or stancesets to bind a key for quick weapon swapping.
Keep in mind that I'm occupying what would otherwise be another DPS warrior or Rogue spot in a raid, so while I'm brought along to provide substantial buffs to the group, I'm also brought along because I smash face substantially well with the proper gear. If I threat cap halfway through a fight and then spend 20 seconds hitting with shit items, I'm now putting an increased DPS burden on the rest of the raid. A few seconds of lost buffs from my death seems like a better option than a large period spent with less DPS output because I'm waiting for a good threat lead. As long as it can be done safely there are virtually no repercussions.

Wolflord - Not sure about something being "canon" just yet. There's still plenty of enhance shaman out there using daggers and other fast off hands, and flametongue on their offhand. See the WWS thread for many, many examples of this. I don't think its a bad thing to reiterate the "obvious" stuff about the spec.

If you just mean there's a different way of wording it, I can certainly change it around some.

Last edited by Malan : 07/10/07 at 11:09 AM.
#408SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
I've never felt the need to use a death as a threat wipe, even on VR. I sustained 742 dps and had to slow down a couple times and forgo shocks, but I didn't feel like a waste of a raid spot because I chose to cut back instead of getting a threat wipe via a death.

Typically, it's the fights with frequent threat wipes (like Hydross) that are the worst for me, and a threat wipe won't help me much there.
#409SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Keep in mind that I'm occupying what would otherwise be another DPS warrior or Rogue spot in a raid, so while I'm brought along to provide substantial buffs to the group, I'm also brought along because I smash face substantially well with the proper gear. If I threat cap halfway through a fight and then spend 20 seconds hitting with shit items, I'm now putting an increased DPS burden on the rest of the raid. A few seconds of lost buffs from my death seems like a better option than a large period spent with less DPS output because I'm waiting for a good threat lead. As long as it can be done safely there are virtually no repercussions.

Wolflord - Not sure about something being "canon" just yet. There's still plenty of enhance shaman out there using daggers and other fast off hands, and flametongue on their offhand. See the WWS thread for many, many examples of this. I don't think its a bad thing to reiterate the "obvious" stuff about the spec.

If you just mean there's a different way of wording it, I can certainly change it around some.
What fights do you find you are threat capped to this extent?

Pre 2.1 I could understand this being an issue, but now, surely not.

Originally Posted by panny View Post
Typically, it's the fights with frequent threat wipes (like Hydross) that are the worst for me, and a threat wipe won't help me much there.
Don't you DPS the first add or two before moving back onto the boss?

I've never ripped on Hydross that i remember, infact in the last 2-3 months I don't recall ripping on anything but trash.
#410SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Negative
Originally Posted by Wolflord View Post
There is no such thing as hit that I can 'drop'. The correct amount of hit rating to aim for as an enhancement shaman is 'whatever happens to be on the gear'.


Panny: I definitely agree on the +spellhit side of things, if I ever find myself in a situation where the guild lacks primary interrupters then Ill gladly respec to resto. However for now the extent of my interrupt responsibility is 'whatever you want' on Aran, and as such 3% spell hit works out to be nothing more than a 3% increase on the tiny 10% of elemental damage that I do.


Nemaa: I definitely think its worth having a Subtlety enchanted cloak on hand. DPS cloaks are many and numerous, so I think it would be well worth enchanting every second cloak you get with 12agi, the alternate with Subtlety just to have that option.


Malan: I think all mention of the 'golden ratio' of stats should be removed from your original post, it seems pretty much canon that hit rating should never be prioritised over or equal to strength and crit, regardless of gear levels.
So what you're saying is that if my gear has a total of 50 hit rating on it, that that is the correct amount to aim for?

If people nowadays are running around with anywhere from 80-120 hit rating, I would say that's a pretty solid number to go off of. By removing your +3% hit from talents, you'd need to stack more on your gear to get the same +hit% as everyone else, thus lowering your other stats.
#411SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wolflord
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Wolflord - Not sure about something being "canon" just yet. There's still plenty of enhance shaman out there using daggers and other fast off hands, and flametongue on their offhand. See the WWS thread for many, many examples of this. I don't think its a bad thing to reiterate the "obvious" stuff about the spec.

If you just mean there's a different way of wording it, I can certainly change it around some.
Thats exactly what I mean. From the post it sounds like you're saying 'for every 1str/1crit rating you also want 0.7 hit rating' ie that you want to maintain a 'golden ratio' of stats. Whereas in truth we just want every damned point of str/crit we can get our hands on.

ps. Its incredivly obvious how many shaman have yet to be enlightened. Im currently trying to change guilds and its somewhat hard to apply to another guild with the line 'your enhancement shammy is awful'.
#412SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Wolflord View Post
ps. Its incredivly obvious how many shaman have yet to be enlightened. Im currently trying to change guilds and its somewhat hard to apply to another guild with the line 'your enhancement shammy is awful'.
Enlightened about what?

From all your previous comments it seems to me that you think you know best, and whatever anyone else says is wrong, when looking at your spec, your gear and comments you have alot to learn still.
#413SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Pearl
a quick question.

is there a thread with links to usefull addons for shaman's/enh shamans in particular?
if so can some1 plz link it.

thx alot.

P.S.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

is this item order truly the best there is? can this list be trusted or is this some1's opinion.
#414SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wolflord
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Enlightened about what?

From all your previous comments it seems to me that you think you know best, and whatever anyone else says is wrong, when looking at your spec, your gear and comments you have alot to learn still.
Very true, which is why I come here to learn. All I mean by enlightened is to have seen the depth of good theorycraft into the enhance shaman spec that goes on here. Generally Im only here to lurk and learn, the only thing thats inspired me to post is that I think Enh/Elem gets looked down upon without any real theorycraft to suggest Enh/Resto is any better.
#415SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Acks
I think all mention of the 'golden ratio' of stats should be removed from your original post, it seems pretty much canon that hit rating should never be prioritised over or equal to strength and crit, regardless of gear levels.
Itemization - Gems
The +8 Hit gem is the wrong answer for enhance shaman.
Best bets are to use +8 Strength (never the +16 AP) or +4 Str/+4Crit.
Im a new raiding enh shaman (formerly resto). My stats are as follows: 1300 AP, 108 Hit, 22.5% crit. (EDIT: Here's my armory page. Disregard my World Breaker. I raid with Fool's Bane MH and Runic Hammer OH, both with mongoose on them.

Given my current gear, should I get my +hit to 150 first and then worry about AP? Should I get my AP to 1500 and then worry about hit? In my meager mind, it would seem that adding +56 hit (7 +hit gems) would increase my dps more so than 112 AP (7 AP gems).

The lion's share of conversation about stat valuation in this thread pertains to an already well geared Shaman (2200 AP, 25% crit). My question is, which stat first for those of us still in Karazhan epics? And specifically, which for PvE boss fights.. I just finished putting all +8 hit gems in my slots to get my hit rating up to a whopping 168 rating. Then I read the 2nd quote above and banged my head on my keyboard.

So 150 +hit is the benchmark Enh shaman should shoot for, but putting +hit gems in my gear sockets is a waste? Im having to resort to leather gear just to get my hit rating over 100, let alone 150-190.

Here are the 2 scenarios for my current stats:

A. All +hit gems in sockets
1238 AP
164 +Hit
23% Crit

B. All +8 str gems in sockets
1350 AP
108 +Hit
23% Crit

As an aside, this is my first post, so please forgive me if i've done something wrong
#416SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
a quick question.

is there a thread with links to usefull addons for shaman's/enh shamans in particular?
if so can some1 plz link it.

thx alot.

P.S.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

is this item order truly the best there is? can this list be trusted or is this some1's opinion.
This weighting is on the currently tested maximum contribution for each stat. Lootzor doesn't do haste rating, so you'll need to consider that as well. HasteR is pretty subjective based on your other gear, since you don't want too much haste, especially if you have a dragonspine or BS mace; ideally you don't want to drop your hasted speed below 1.50. For weapons it doesn't take speed into account, so always shoot for the slowest possible weapons you can get for each hand. These values don't consider set bonuses or sta/int, so you'll need to choose for yourself.
#417SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
The gem choices are simply that choices, Crit, ap, hit, all have different values to different people. My preference at the moment is crit/ap, but my gear is pretty balanced for all 3 main stats.

The patchy dps of a shaman can never be consistent, some times my dps will be at 900 and others it will be at 1100 without changing a single piece of gear, the randomness of WF and which hand it procs on is always going to make it inconsistent.

@Acks, go with what you feel is best, the difference between the two choice will be marginal.
#418SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Don't you DPS the first add or two before moving back onto the boss?

I've never ripped on Hydross that i remember, infact in the last 2-3 months I don't recall ripping on anything but trash.
We've tried a variety of ways, what worked for us was to Seed of Corruption Hydross and keep single target dps on him. Because the Shadow Priests would stay on Hydross anyway and he'd be fully debuffed already, DPS on hydross was higher than it'd be on an add meaning SoC would go off faster. When we tried focusing an add first, I'd get pull aggro on them anyway, so either way, I'd have to hold back.
#419SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Stigmata - I've been severely threat capped on Void Reaver and Morogrim recently. Although on Void Reaver its mostly a "I think I might be capped" since no threat meter is accurately calculating the knockback yet. At around 50% though it just feels pretty dangerous. 2-3 weeks ago I was sitting just under the tanks on the meter and a rogue who was listed as 40k under me suddenly got spattered by Void Reaver, followed by the Fury Warrior who was also below me. That left me in a scary place. :;
#420SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Stigmata - I've been severely threat capped on Void Reaver and Morogrim recently. Although on Void Reaver its mostly a "I think I might be capped" since no threat meter is accurately calculating the knockback yet. At around 50% though it just feels pretty dangerous. 2-3 weeks ago I was sitting just under the tanks on the meter and a rogue who was listed as 40k under me suddenly got spattered by Void Reaver, followed by the Fury Warrior who was also below me. That left me in a scary place. :;
Well VR is one on its own, no other fights are like that, and similar to you other people below me on threat have ripped, but saying your threat capped for 1 or 2 boss fights out of 20-30 isn't really a fair reflection on the class as a whole.

Morogrim is a funny one, the tank gets a attack slowing affect, and I'm always close, but no more so that the rogues/dps warriors, to an extent the rogues even more, the best rogue can vanish and still get back to the top of the threat meters in no time, especially when he is churning out 1600-1800 dps.
#421SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Stigmata - I've been severely threat capped on Void Reaver and Morogrim recently. Although on Void Reaver its mostly a "I think I might be capped" since no threat meter is accurately calculating the knockback yet. At around 50% though it just feels pretty dangerous. 2-3 weeks ago I was sitting just under the tanks on the meter and a rogue who was listed as 40k under me suddenly got spattered by Void Reaver, followed by the Fury Warrior who was also below me. That left me in a scary place. :;

Do you use KTM on Void Reaver or Omen? I haven't given Omen a shot yet but last night against Void Reaver I was #1 on KTM from about 40% -> 0% and I was waiting for him to hit me and kill me just so I could ankh, but it never happened. I've just stopped worrying about agro on Void Reaver as KTM is never right, heh.
#422SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I've used both Omen and KTM, neither are anywhere near being accurate on that fight.

Stigmata - there may be others, I've only just started getting into deep SSC with my new guild and we're starting on the rest of TK soon so we'll see how that goes. Those are just 2 fights in recent memory that I know for sure I am capable of ripping aggro pretty early in the fight, I'm sure there are others that I could do the same if I used a few more consumables (heroic/haste pots, drums).
#423SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leachim
Yes, Void Reaver and Morogrim are encounters where threat for shamans is indeed an issue. And yes its always good to try to maximise your dps. But again I say encounters like that arent about dps, thats why blizzard made them so agro-sensitive. Furthermore, if were talking about morogrim and voidwalker were talking about 2 very easy encounters who dont require much effort at all (hes called Loot Reaver for a reason)... Its like totemweaving: sure its 'a way' to impriove your dps a little, but why bother?
Id be curious what the difference in your damageoutput is between a Morogrim kill where you suicide-ankh and one where you go fullout but keep your agro always just below that of the mt (getting watertombed is a great way of agro-reduction anyways). Is it realy worth the hassle?

I just get the feeling that some of the posts here claim that suicide-ankhing should be considered a 'standard procedure' for enhancement-dps, where imo its only suitable for a very limited number of encounters and even then it can hardly be labled as required.
#424SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Well VR is one on its own, no other fights are like that, and similar to you other people below me on threat have ripped, but saying your threat capped for 1 or 2 boss fights out of 20-30 isn't really a fair reflection on the class as a whole.

Morogrim is a funny one, the tank gets a attack slowing affect, and I'm always close, but no more so that the rogues/dps warriors, to an extent the rogues even more, the best rogue can vanish and still get back to the top of the threat meters in no time, especially when he is churning out 1600-1800 dps.
I was pretty seriously threat capped on both Essence of Desire and Essence of Anger. When you put out a single WF crit of 5410 on Anger, it's pretty easy to see how. Likewise in Hyjal there are a lot of low armor bosses, Winterchill, Anetheron, Kazrogal and Archimonde are killer melee fights. I've had aggro issues on Anetheron, and I'd have issues on Archimonde except for the luck I've had with having to avoid shitty melee doomfires and air bursts at the same time as fear keeping me out of range of my tremor. The next cloak I get is getting subtelty, and I'm praying for a Prism of Inner Calm to drop.
#425SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Erongg
Its like totemweaving: sure its 'a way' to impriove your dps a little, but why bother?
I'm curious to hear others' thoughts on swapping WF/GOA or WF/Tranq (on threat limited fights). In principle it sounds great - how does it work in practice? Does anyone do it consistently in pretty much every fight? How do you manage your global cooldowns? How does it affect your own DPS? How annoying is it to keep up, and do you use any macros to help?

The upside to totem swapping is pretty great, so I'm curious about people's experiences with it.
#451SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
Recount is a good one.


Recount - A Graphical Damage Meter/Raid Analysis Tool
#452SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Unaz View Post
I normally try to do SS->Flame shock->Earth Shock. By the time you get to ES, they've eaten up your SS charges.
Same
#453SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
thanks heaps Ruzia just briefly tested it then and it's awesome can't wait to test it in the raid tonight
#454SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3songah
My guild officers just suggested that our two enhance shamans should use nightfall for the casters. Would the dps that I lose from using nightfall in single target fights be worth the nightfall proc? I have pretty decent enhancement gear with around 200 hitrating which will be wasted wielding a 2hander.
#455SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Acks
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes, remove all your +Hit gems. Hit is not nearly as important as we thought.

I'll be editing the original post a bit later when I have more time.
But at what +hit rating should one do this? I read someone saying the run with 120 hit, some with 190, some with 250. I suppose im just looking for a minimum amount of +hit that a raider should have before focusing on other stats.

I understand that its a toss up to some degree, but surely there's a line where you are missing so much that your WF isn't proccing enough, right? or where your +hit is so low that you hit your Crit cap?
#456SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Rob
Originally Posted by songah View Post
My guild officers just suggested that our two enhance shamans should use nightfall for the casters. Would the dps that I lose from using nightfall in single target fights be worth the nightfall proc? I have pretty decent enhancement gear with around 200 hitrating which will be wasted wielding a 2hander.
Uhh, I don't think that the proc will be enough to balance out the fact that that axe does less DPS than a one-hander... but I don't have definitive math to prove that. You'd need to figure out the PPM on it. But if white damage is about 50% of your DPS, losing your OH means you're giving up at least 1/3 * 50% = 16.7% of damage, plus damage lost from keeping up UR for you and your group, plus the fact that this is only 2/3 of the DPS of a good MH, plus the fact this has 0 AP/crit/hit on it... I just can't see it working.
Originally Posted by Acks
But at what +hit rating should one do this? I read someone saying the run with 120 hit, some with 190, some with 250. I suppose im just looking for a minimum amount of +hit that a raider should have before focusing on other stats.

I understand that its a toss up to some degree, but surely there's a line where you are missing so much that your WF isn't proccing enough, right? or where your +hit is so low that you hit your Crit cap?
Dear lord, try actually carefully reading the first page and/or previous two pages of the thread...

Last edited by Rob : 07/10/07 at 10:23 PM.
#457SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khlysti
So, finally got the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision, and while the energy surge (110 mana gain on lhw or lb) seems to be actually going off at 10% the power surge (ap bonus on ss) is well, definately not 50%.

Unfortunately eu servers just came down so I haven't had time to do more testing but from what I have so far of 210 stormstrikes which landed (so ignoring dodge/parry) 168 caused a power surge. This seems within acceptable distance for each weapon having a 50% chance to proc on ss, but I didn't have time to see if single wielding would result in much nearer 50% total procs or not.

As it is it seems including dodges (but not parries, lets hit the raid mobs from behind) the total uptime for the power surge will be ~75% and the trinket will be worth (275*0.75) 206 static AP, far higher than the expected of ~138AP.

I would love to see more data from anyone else who has this trinket, and will check to see if it is 50% with only 1 weapon equipped once servers are up tomorrow.
#458SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Acks View Post
But at what +hit rating should one do this? I read someone saying the run with 120 hit, some with 190, some with 250. I suppose im just looking for a minimum amount of +hit that a raider should have before focusing on other stats.

I understand that its a toss up to some degree, but surely there's a line where you are missing so much that your WF isn't proccing enough, right? or where your +hit is so low that you hit your Crit cap?
I don't think we know a definitive answer to this. Well, other than that which either Stigmata or Sebudai offered earlier (I'm sorry I forget which, and I'm not finding it with the search function) - get gear that are upgrades. They'll often come with hit. If it's not that big an upgrade that you can tell if it is or not, it's probably best to let a guildy get the item for whom it would be a clear upgrade.

Or something along those lines.
#459SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
I can't seem to decide between abacus and hourglass. Currently I sit around 24.5% crit, 1520 ap, and 19.5% hit with abacus on =\. (trying not to derail your current topic, but you are talking trinkets!)
#460SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shalas
Originally Posted by songah View Post
My guild officers just suggested that our two enhance shamans should use nightfall for the casters. Would the dps that I lose from using nightfall in single target fights be worth the nightfall proc? I have pretty decent enhancement gear with around 200 hitrating which will be wasted wielding a 2hander.
WF + Autoattack + Stormstrike is about 90% of a Enh Shaman's damage. By ditching the OH, you lose about 25-30% of that (down one third, but autoattack effectivly gains 5-10% hit and WF procs stop being eaten by the OH). In addition, your weapon is 20-30 DPS lower than it would otherwise be. As an asspull guess, I don't see a damage loss of 25% as unreasonable. If you have ten casters, each one needs to do 2-3% more damage from Nightfall to break even, which requires 20% uptime. WoWHead comments say it's about a 12% proc rate. With 80% Flurry uptime (and assuming WF/SS can proc it), you'd get about 30% uptime -- 50% higher than needed to break even with my rough guess of damage loss (or break even with only 7 casters, which is far more realistic). In addition, you'd be moving damage away from a character with significant aggro issues to ones that have fewer problems, and making the shadow priests return more mana. The second shaman would only add about 20% uptime though, so both using it at the same time probably isn't worth it.

The UR issues means it probably isn't worth messing around with, but the proc really is ridiculous enough that Nightfall isn't an entirely terrible idea.
#461SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
That seems like a fairly well reasoned post Shalas. If the wielder has crit gear s/he could sub in for the hit gear he's currently using, it might not be a horrible idea.
#462SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
WF + Autoattack + Stormstrike is about 90% of a Enh Shaman's damage. By ditching the OH, you lose about 25-30% of that (down one third, but autoattack effectivly gains 5-10% hit and WF procs stop being eaten by the OH). In addition, your weapon is 20-30 DPS lower than it would otherwise be. As an asspull guess, I don't see a damage loss of 25% as unreasonable. If you have ten casters, each one needs to do 2-3% more damage from Nightfall to break even, which requires 20% uptime. WoWHead comments say it's about a 12% proc rate. With 80% Flurry uptime (and assuming WF/SS can proc it), you'd get about 30% uptime -- 50% higher than needed to break even with my rough guess of damage loss (or break even with only 7 casters, which is far more realistic). In addition, you'd be moving damage away from a character with significant aggro issues to ones that have fewer problems, and making the shadow priests return more mana. The second shaman would only add about 20% uptime though, so both using it at the same time probably isn't worth it.

The UR issues means it probably isn't worth messing around with, but the proc really is ridiculous enough that Nightfall isn't an entirely terrible idea.
I may have missed it, but aren't you assuming the average caster's DPS is equal to the enhancement Shaman's DPS? Your calculations should take the relative dps differences into account instead of using pure percentages.

Also, I'm not sure if the figure of 25% dps loss for the shaman is accurate. When I've tried 2h DPS (with a level 70 epic), my damage seemed to drop more than that. However, that might be due to the fact I had to leave a larger threat buffer between me and the tank.
#463SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
@Mextro, There isn't alot to be said really, just keep upgrading your gear, the belt and second ring are the worst items you have, so set those as a priority.

I recently dropped herbalism and took leatherworking, it cost me close to 2k gold but i eventually got it to 375 and crafted some of the BT/SSC items, if you can get hold of the plans (assuming guilds on your server are in there) that might be worth doing.

The items aren't cheap to make considering the price of the plans and a couple of the rarer parts, but will be nice upgrades.
Yeah i know about the belt and ring, problem is prowler belt and garona never drops. Also, which shoulders should i go for, bladed shoulderpads of merciless, or the t4 ones? I already have 2 parts, but when i got the gloves i really needed to fix alot of my gems because i lost my meta bonus and 1% crit.
#464SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Hi guys,

ever since BC came out I compared all leather and mail items by (re-)calculating their base stats by hand. So here's just a quick question to see if I'm right or wrong.

Afaik 25agility = 22critrating = 1%crit. Since 22critrating equals 25agility doesn't that mean 1critrating equals 1.136agility and therefore making gems with critrating superior to gems with only str on them? For example, the 4critrating/4str gem actually translates into 4.5agi/4str making it better then the 8str gem used in many examples here?

Thanks in advance
#465SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
You have it a bit backwards. 1.136 agi = 1 CR, therefore a gem that gives you 4 crit rating would have to have 4.5 agi on it in order to be the same amount of crit% as a 4 crit rating gem.
#466SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kissmyaxe
Well if you use: 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating and take into consideration BoK then 1 STR=1.1 STR > 1 CR, else they are equal.
#467SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
WF + Autoattack + Stormstrike is about 90% of a Enh Shaman's damage. By ditching the OH, you lose about 25-30% of that (down one third, but autoattack effectivly gains 5-10% hit and WF procs stop being eaten by the OH). In addition, your weapon is 20-30 DPS lower than it would otherwise be. As an asspull guess, I don't see a damage loss of 25% as unreasonable. If you have ten casters, each one needs to do 2-3% more damage from Nightfall to break even, which requires 20% uptime. WoWHead comments say it's about a 12% proc rate. With 80% Flurry uptime (and assuming WF/SS can proc it), you'd get about 30% uptime -- 50% higher than needed to break even with my rough guess of damage loss (or break even with only 7 casters, which is far more realistic). In addition, you'd be moving damage away from a character with significant aggro issues to ones that have fewer problems, and making the shadow priests return more mana. The second shaman would only add about 20% uptime though, so both using it at the same time probably isn't worth it.

The UR issues means it probably isn't worth messing around with, but the proc really is ridiculous enough that Nightfall isn't an entirely terrible idea.
The main reason for me to raid as enhancement is to bring respectable damage and more importantly buff my group with totems and UR, UR being the cherry on the cake.

Using a 2 hander I doubt UR would be up even 75% of the time on my group, my damage would undoubtably drop by way more than 25-30%.

Using the Kaelthas 2 hander my dps is around 550-600, DW on the same fight my dps is 1000-1200 depending on debuffs.

The Kaelthas 2 hander is more than double the dps and 3 times the top end damage, how any guild or player would think this can be viable is beyond me.
#468SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
You have it a bit backwards. 1.136 agi = 1 CR, therefore a gem that gives you 4 crit rating would have to have 4.5 agi on it in order to be the same amount of crit% as a 4 crit rating gem.
That sounds like I'm correct?! ;)

Originally Posted by Kissmyaxe View Post
Well if you use: 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating and take into consideration BoK then 1 STR=1.1 STR > 1 CR, else they are equal.
Afaik CR gets buffed from BoK just like Str gets buffed making it better again. At least I read that in the Euro Forums.
#469SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Beroll View Post
Afaik CR gets buffed from BoK just like Str gets buffed making it better again. At least I read that in the Euro Forums.
I don't think that is correct.
#470SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kissmyaxe
Strength, Agility, Stamina, Intellect, Spirit are the only stats affected by BoK.
All the other stats like AP, any rating, health bonuses, etc are not affected.
#471SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
I'm sure that none of the ratings get buffed by Kings. You have a link to the thread on the Euro forums?
#472SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mindrila
So is BoK the only reason why Str > AP or am I missing something?
I'm leveling my shaman atm but its better to know how to equip him right before I'm actually gathering equip.
#473SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
I'm sure that none of the ratings get buffed by Kings. You have a link to the thread on the Euro forums?
WoW Forums -> Mongoose or 20 strength?
I remembered wrong.
The thread doesn't say that CR gets buffed by BoK. It says that CR is always better then STR or AGI, even with BoK. That's only logical after thinking about it. 1 AGI/STR with BoK = 1.1 AGI/STR. 1 CR = 1.136 AGI. So CR always wins, especially when there's no Paladin around.
#474SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Kissmyaxe
Originally Posted by Mindrila View Post
So is BoK the only reason why Str > AP or am I missing something?
I'm leveling my shaman atm but its better to know how to equip him right before I'm actually gathering equip.
1 Str gives 2 AP and some block value. But obviously block value is useless as for an enhancement shaman.
If you don't take BoK into account 1 Str = 2 AP.
But if you ever have a choice, like gems for example, I see no reason whatsoever to take AP over Str.

To Beroll:
I don't see the point of your argument. Noone is debating that CR is better than Agility point per point. But if you add Strength into the equation, that is a whole other discussion that has no "right" answer. As debated many times, CR vs Str is relative to your current stats. If you want to compare them, get a set of stats and work from there. But ofcourse that's what the various enhancement shaman threads have been discussing...

Edit: Added in the quote and reply to Beroll.

Last edited by Kissmyaxe : 07/11/07 at 7:22 AM.
#475SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3caladein
Yes, if you don't have BoK: 1 Str = 2 AP and they're perfectly interchangeable.
#526SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Maybe some basic guide how to manage the threat level?
I'm curious what you know about [Prism of Inner Calm]? Is it viable to choose that trinket over the ones that are posted in the OP? All I know is that it's -150 threat on melee criticals and -1000 threat on spell criticals. What if I crit with rank1 earth shock?
When the trinket is working I think it will be great for enhancement if you have a high enough crit rate. From what I understand though people that are testing this trinket (over in the Omen/Threat thread in the UI forum) are saying it doesn't appear to be working correctly.

Regarding Rank 1 Earth shock, I'd say 2 things would prohibit that - loss of damage from only using rank 1 earth shocks, and the low spell crit rate enhance has.

Ashtongue Trinket stuff - is 200 Stormstrikes a large enough statistical sample size to use for analysis?

Last edited by Malan : 07/12/07 at 12:44 PM. Reason: changed wording so that I appear like I know what I'm talking
#527SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nifty01
Im doing some more testing today after the Raid to see if the 95% is really accurate.

Concerning the [Prism of Inner Calm], my Omen is not Calculating in the Trinket at all.
#528SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Khlysti
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg View Post
About the Ashtongue Talisman: It looks like the 50% chance works for every hit of a Stormstrike attack. Because of that, the uptime is around 75%.

And also a section about threat reducement would be nice.


Sentinel
Please don't quote things already proven false, its pretty damn clear you haven't properly read what was written or you wouldn't be signing that post either.

As I said before, at first I observed a proc rate of around 80% when dual wielding and assumed this was caused by 2 weapons each having a 50% proc (which would give 75% uptime, well within acceptable range of 80% for the number of stormstrikes I had time to do). However EU servers went down before I had time to test with just 1 weapon to see if it really was a 'dual 50%' proc or just plain high. The proc rate observed with 1 weapon was once again 80%+ showing it had nothing to do with dual wield and that the '50%' label on the trinket is false.
#529SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Hedin
I think this formulas are needed in the 1st post.

In full Enhance Build with Elemental Weapons (+40% WF Damage) and Weapon Mastery(+10% Melee Damage)
Put in an AP value that you will have when completely buffed with all procs and totems included (c) Disquette

MainHand Damage
(<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110%
MainHand WF
(<Weapon Damage>+(AP+WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110%*140%

OffHand Damage
(<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2*110%

OffHand WF 2.1 patch
((<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2+(WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>))*110%*140%

You may use my Online PHP Script to calculate damage.

And BTW Weapon Mastery makes only 12.73AP=+1DPS

Last edited by Hedin : 07/12/07 at 4:49 PM.
#530SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
I'm confused, how are you relating 10% Weapon Damage to Attack Power?
#531SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Hedin, you should probably note that you don't plan on Unleashed Rage giving additional bonuses in that example. Or perhaps make it clear that you mean "put in an AP value that you will have when completely buffed with all procs and totems included". By the way, I like that you adjusted the formula properly for OH WF 2.1 :-)

Malan, I'm not sure where you're getting that. The only 10% I see in there is from Weapon Mastery, which does affect the overall swing.
#532SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
From his last statement
And BTW Weapon Mastery makes only 12.73AP=+1DPS
Am I reading that wrong or something? Isn't he saying that 10% Weapon Dmg = 12AP or 1 DPS?
#533SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Kegsta
A very interesting thread with a lot of good info in it, thanks to all those who have contributed so far.

I'm currently elemental, but the guild has no enhancement shamans so our melle do pathetic DPS, I'm currently collecting enhancement gear and will respec this tuesday when i get this weeks arena points for the mace.

I got the [Darkmoon Card: Wrath] and will give it a try, it looks promising, should be quite nice for my very low level gear.

I also have this weapon [Rivenspike], I plan to try in my offhand -600 AC raid wide buff would fit quite well with my role as enhancement, being one of very few 2.9 weapons, I'm hoping it will still produce resonable WF dps when my AP gets up. At level 60 this weapon proc didn't work because of the low debuff limit and 40 people it would just get pushed right off, at 70 my raid runs very low on shadow priests and locks. I also have the [Bashguuder] with any luck I will beable to duel wield them the first 10 seconds of the fight to get 3 procs, then just have the offhand keep the proc up.

Last edited by Kegsta : 07/12/07 at 4:00 PM.
#534SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3tetracycloide
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
From his last statement

Am I reading that wrong or something? Isn't he saying that 10% Weapon Dmg = 12AP or 1 DPS?
AP is a buff to DPS but it is realized as addtional damage added to each swing so I believe what he is saying is that weapon mastery multiplies the damage of the swing and therefor multiplies the contribution of AP and therefor with weapon mastery 12AP is roughly equal to 1DPS instead of the unbuffed value of 16ishAP per DPS.

At least I hope that's what's going on otherwise I just embarassed myself by posting in a melee thread.
#535SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Kaubel
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg View Post

Sentinel
There's no need to sign your posts. We know who you are by looking at your profile.
#536SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by tetracycloide View Post
AP is a buff to DPS but it is realized as addtional damage added to each swing so I believe what he is saying is that weapon mastery multiplies the damage of the swing and therefor multiplies the contribution of AP and therefor with weapon mastery 12AP is roughly equal to 1DPS instead of the unbuffed value of 16ishAP per DPS.

At least I hope that's what's going on otherwise I just embarassed myself by posting in a melee thread.
Oh ok, that makes more sense. I thought he meant that Weapon Mastery was equivelant to 1 DPS, and that seemed pretty far fetched.
#537SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
I misstyped the formulas for original swings... now thay are without WF *140% :-)))
#538SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
On consumables - is there a clear winner on which Pots/Elixirs to use? I know quite a few people use Flask of Relentless Assault, I was using Fel Strength until recently and then started using Agility pots instead. Whats the order of importance of the three?
#539SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
On consumables - is there a clear winner on which Pots/Elixirs to use? I know quite a few people use Flask of Relentless Assault, I was using Fel Strength until recently and then started using Agility pots instead. Whats the order of importance of the three?
I've got a bit of money to burn, so I usually use Fel strength/Mageblood and then grab some Scrolls of Strength and AGI V.
#540SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
On consumables - is there a clear winner on which Pots/Elixirs to use? I know quite a few people use Flask of Relentless Assault, I was using Fel Strength until recently and then started using Agility pots instead. Whats the order of importance of the three?
Well using Pater's AEP values:

Flask = 120
Major Agility = 110
Fel Strength = 90
Major Strength = 77

I'd say the flask is the clear winner, especially for content where you will be wiping. For easier farm stuff agi gives better bang for the buck than the other pots.
#541SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nifty01
OK, i did 468 more SS Hits with Ashtongue Trinket resulting in 420 Proccs (leaving out Misses that cant procc) = 89,7% Procchance
#542SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Strange. Do you think its just bugged? Maybe checking to see if the other effects for elemental and resto are also the same higher proc rate would be a good idea.

Edit - added this info as a note to the trinket section to indicate that it might be bugged.
#543SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Nifty01 View Post
OK, i did 468 more SS Hits with Ashtongue Trinket resulting in 420 Proccs (leaving out Misses that cant procc) = 89,7% Procchance
Have you tested this against higher level mobs as well? Some procs are inflated by level difference.
#544SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
According to some comments on wowhead, the effects on darkmoon cards wrath and crusade stack on themselves, meaning you could use x2 wrath or crusade. That'd be pretty nuts with double crusade, a static benefit of 240 ap.

I don't do much math theorycrafting, but from reading the posts in this thread and others I would think the trinket hierarchy would be something like
Ashtongue > Tsunami > DST > Hourglass > Bloodlust Brooch > Abacus > Crusade/Wrath

Any thoughts? Maybe I'm way off, and I'm not sure where prism of inner calm would fit into there.
#545SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nifty01
The 468 Hits were all done during the Raid in Mount Hyjal, so the Mobs are rather Highlevel :P

Id say Trinket hierarchy is:

Ashtongue> DST > Madness o.t.Betrayer > BLoodlust Brooch > Tsnunami > Hourglass

Not sure about the Proccrate of Madness Trinket, could be better

:>
#546SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
If we apply AEP values to the trinkets we get:

Ashtongue = 234 assuming 85% uptime.
Dragonspine = 202.5 assuming 1.5ppm, I get higher ppm in testing but not in raids so this is probably a conservative estimate.
Betrayer = 112 + proc which I'm not sure how to value, someone on wowhead is claiming 2-2.5 ppm on a sword rogue which seems pretty significant.
Tsunami = 141 assuming 0.9 ppm.
Crusade = 120 once it's stacked up which should take 10-15s, so a bit less in practice.
Bloodlust Brooch = 118.3.
Hourglass = 109 assuming 0.9 ppm.
Abacus = 107.3.
Wrath = too hard for me to figure out, another thread came to the conclusion it was quite poor for anyone with a reasonable amount of crit though.
#547SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I don't have any numbers yet because the WWS hasn't been uploaded, but i can confirm similar results with the ashtongue trinket, i'd say 9/10 SS would result in me having the buff.

Running with 35-40% crit and 2700AP is damn nice.

I broke 1400 DPS on Akama and 1200 on teron this evening.

On the pot/flask debate, I prefer agility, flask has the benefit to not reapplying it, but 5 pots usually does me a full nights raiding since we don't have the learning part now.

Just need dragonspine now, killing gruul since 17th Feb 07, had only 1 drop
#548SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
I prefer flasking right now; depending on how cheap marks of the illidari are on your server it is actually rather cheap. I can get marks for ~15g on Malganis if I'm diligent in AH trolling. Another thing in flasking's favor is EJ pc's and internet connections are always terrible in the summer for some unknown reason, and until recently I had a <6 fps on many boss fights leading to my untimely demise more often than I would like.
#549SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Here is the Teron WWS Stigmata - WWS

I'm not sure what the ashtongue buff is showing as on there? possibly power surge?

Teron 18 procs out of 27, also 17/32 and 13/17 on two wipes
Bloodboil 18 procs out of 38

The sample is way to small, but I didn't get the trinket until after we killed akama, so looking at the full raid wouldn't give a better idea either.

Teron DPS was 1362, which I think is the highest i've had in BT so far on a fight that lasted more than 5 minutes.
#550SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
Okay i just saw the new violet eye rewards, and the leather chest kinda caught my eyes, (http://www.worldofraids.com/news/new...ye-rewards.jpg) is it worth it to farm for it? I currently have the nightbane mail chest, but i seriously need more hit.
#601SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
Can we safely say that percentage-based haste buffs are added seperately from the haste rating buffs then?
Yes, anything with a rating is added together to give a total % haste that comes from rating. Anything that has a flat % effect is applied on its own as a multiplier.
#602SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
Yes, anything with a rating is added together to give a total % haste that comes from rating. Anything that has a flat % effect is applied on its own as a multiplier.
What about DST, does it have it's own buff icon etc, while still being haste rating? Is it added up with the passive haste rating, or applied on it's own?
#603SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
I would love to see a model (or numbers) showing the perfect amount of passive haste along with with x2 mongoose, dragonstrike, and flurry to hit a 1.5 speed on the nose.
#604SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Khlysti
2.7/1.02/1.02/1.3 = 1.9962736/1.5 = 1.3308 = 347.39 rating, -212 for dragonstrike = 135 passive haste needed.

You then get 2.7/1.02/1.02/1.3/1.3305 = 1.5004 speed.

valestalker + mukoa + 2x band of devastation = 36+37+31+31 = 135 passive haste, its almost like its planned :P
#605SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
I would love to see a model (or numbers) showing the perfect amount of passive haste along with with x2 mongoose, dragonstrike, and flurry to hit a 1.5 speed on the nose.
Assuming haste is handled the way Khlysti described you would need 135 passive haste rating to hit almost exactly 1.5 with the items listed. It's really not useful to know though since you'd be optimizing your gear for a situation that will only happen rarely. Any compromises you made to reach that goal would almost certainly hurt your DPS overall.
#606SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
I would love to see a model (or numbers) showing the perfect amount of passive haste along with with x2 mongoose, dragonstrike, and flurry to hit a 1.5 speed on the nose.
I hit 1.5 pretty regularly in raids, I however do not have any of the passive haste items yet. Cataclysm flurry (1.35), 2x Mongoose(1.02, 1.02), Dragonstrike, and Drums of Battle(1.278) = 1.504.
#607SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
Assuming haste is handled the way Khlysti described you would need 135 passive haste rating to hit almost exactly 1.5 with the items listed. It's really not useful to know though since you'd be optimizing your gear for a situation that will only happen rarely. Any compromises you made to reach that goal would almost certainly hurt your DPS overall.
Flurry and dragonstrike proc are not a rare occasion
#608SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
Flurry and dragonstrike proc are not a rare occasion
Probability isn't a strong area for me and this is probably oversimplifying but given 80% uptime on flurry(pater's sim @ 30% crit) and 2ppm for dragonstrike(what I've observed in testing), the likelihood of both buffs being up at the same time is roughly 27%. Throw in 2 mongoose procs at 2ppm and you'll only spend about 7% of your time with all those buffs active.

These are pretty rough numbers though because I don't take into account buffs refreshing themselves or any changes to proc rates due to the extra haste. Still, the numbers should be in the ballpark and I'd maintain that optimizing your gear choices for a very small amount of time is not the best way to plan your upgrades. I know for myself I'll just pick the items that offer the best individual stats and try to make sure my average haste doesn't put me between 1.5 and 1.41.
#609SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
The 2 ppm from dragonstrike doesn't seem right, I'm certain its up more than that. On a slightly different note, I had 8 back to back procs a while back, the druid tanking was like, why do you have a permanent sprint animation.

edit: after looking at some WWS it would seemt he proc rate may be below 2 ppm, this seems strange because I tend to look at my character screen alot during raids, to see weapon speed, ap and crit (just to see what it spikes too) And the weapon speed are often hovering around 1.5 or lower, which I dont think would be the case without the dragonstrike proc.

Another thought, does wws pick up a refresh of dragonstrike if i dont lose the buff?
#610SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
panny
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
The 2 ppm from dragonstrike doesn't seem right, I'm certain its up more than that. On a slightly different note, I had 8 back to back procs a while back, the druid tanking was like, why do you have a permanent sprint animation.

edit: after looking at some WWS it would seemt he proc rate may be below 2 ppm, this seems strange because I tend to look at my character screen alot during raids, to see weapon speed, ap and crit (just to see what it spikes too) And the weapon speed are often hovering around 1.5 or lower, which I dont think would be the case without the dragonstrike proc.

Another thought, does wws pick up a refresh of dragonstrike if i dont lose the buff?
No, it doesn't. It's really quite annoying for tracking Flurry uptime. Also, if you have a Dragonspine Trophy, the buff is called "Haste" as well, so it's quite hard to actually tell how often they proc.

2 PPM sounds okay to me, are you factoring in the fact that all those haste procs increases the chance for further haste procs?

Last edited by panny : 07/16/07 at 7:53 AM. Reason: clarity
#611SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Addon for weapon speed tracking?

Is there any addon to track the MH/OH weapon speed over time? Can someone do it?
I'm thinking about a simple addon that summarizes weapon speed data like this:
"Time spent in combat: 300 seconds
Weapon speed, seconds, % of time spent
2.6, 45, 15%
2.0, 240, 80%"
and so on...
I think it would help us a lot to get real tested data.
#612SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Going from [Fel Edged Battleaxe] to [High Warlord's Cleaver] in the OH added 136DPS for me on our last Tidewalker kill.
I've only received some minor upgrades and dumped some +hit for more crit and AP. Needless to say time spent reading here is time well spent!

WWS

WWS

Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, keep it up!
#613SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
Something seems odd with those logs.. In the first one you clocked in 22% white crit, while in the second you hit 38% white crits???

Same for other skills, WF went from 18% to 32% crit, while stormstrike seemed the most normal at 24% -> 28%.

Was your group setup radically different, or something? That seems like an awfully large difference in crit to chalk up to WoW RNG streaks.
#614SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Gwaihir View Post
Something seems odd with those logs.. In the first one you clocked in 22% white crit, while in the second you hit 38% white crits???

Same for other skills, WF went from 18% to 32% crit, while stormstrike seemed the most normal at 24% -> 28%.

Was your group setup radically different, or something? That seems like an awfully large difference in crit to chalk up to WoW RNG streaks.
The first one is the old one, and I had way more hit rating there then I'm using now. I think I was close to hit capped. I suppose that would lead to more white hits, and I had 2 rogues, warrior and a feral druid in my group on the last one. Compared to a warrior+3 rogues last attempt.

So okay, it wasn't only the OH weapon change, but I'm sure that contributed aswell!
#615SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
I apologize if this has been said and I just missed it, but I'm wondering where Romulo's Poison Vial ranks in the list of trinkets. Last night, in a bit of testing, the poison proc itself was counting for 2% of my damage (I wasn't using shocks, except to interrupt spells, as I was grinding). I wonder how that compares to other buffs.

Here is my armory to get an idea of where I am gear-wise, as that % would obviously be less if I was doing more damage otherwise:

Ilmaterr's Armory

Hope we can place this somewhere on the list.
Sorry to quote myself here, but I haven't seen any responses. I have been watching this very closely, and even with an elemental shaman in my group last night to eat up the SS buff, I'm still seeing this trinket's procs making up 2% of my damage (though Recount doesn't give me 1/10th of a %, so that's as detailed as I can tell).

On Netherspite, with the Elemental Shaman in the blue beam, I used a different trinket to give him the full SS buff, so I can see that making a difference as far as usefulness, but I still would like to see the difference.
#616SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Oh right sorry missed the vial completely. 35 Hit Rating valued at 35/1.44 = 24.30 AEP with some sort of value from the proc... unless you're starved for +Hit this has just really turned out to be a poor trinket for shaman.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#617SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Just noticed we're not using the same scales for the trinkets, to match up with the other ones I posted they would have values of:

DFT = 84
KotS = 92
Romulo's = 49 + proc. This might not be a terrible trinket after all. Assuming 2ppm which I think is a bit conservative with WF it would add on average 9.3dps. You could argue that is equivalent to 129ap, of course it doesn't synergize with our yellow damage(except for possibly stormstrike by a small amount) so it would roughly only add 1/2 the value of straight attack power. I would say a conservative estimate gives it an AEP of 113.5 which is about right for where it drops.
#618SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Oh right sorry missed the vial completely. 35 Hit Rating valued at 35/1.44 = 24.30 AEP with some sort of value from the proc... unless you're starved for +Hit this has just really turned out to be a poor trinket for shaman.
I understand the hit rating being low value (and I'm not hurting for HR at all), but if it's making up 2% of my damage, rounded up, simple math would say that this is at least a 2% increase in my damage output. I'm wondering how that compares to an item with an AEP of, say, 107 or 118.

Part of this is my ignorance, but I wouldn't think that 83 AEP (the difference between what the proc'd ability would have to get me vs. using the Abacus) would mean a 2% increase in my damage. Am I wrong? I could be, just asking.
#619SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
Just noticed we're not using the same scales for the trinkets
Uh oh. Well that explains why I couldn't figure out how you had valued one of the haste trinkets. Can you check the first post real quick and make sure I didn't make any other slip ups?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#620SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Uh oh. Well that explains why I couldn't figure out how you had valued one of the haste trinkets. Can you check the first post real quick and make sure I didn't make any other slip ups?
They all look good.
#621SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
berg
Pure speculation on the Ashtongue talisman.
Behind the scenes stormstrike is likely implemented as the 2 swings and then any successful hit attempts to apply the stormstrike debuff.

If each of these affects is granted a 50% chance to apply the effect then you get...
- 5% of stormstrikes get dodged and result in nothing.
- 95% both swings hit, both swings apply stormstrike (does not stack.) This results in 4 coinflips to apply the buff.

4 coin flips = 15/16 = 93.75%
93.75% * 0.95(non dodges) = 89% proc rate which is our observed rate.


I am still 3 weeks out from the trinket but a simple way to test if this is what is happening is to have someone who has the trinket put on a 2 hander (or staff if they have no 2H talents) and go test the proc rate. If it works the way I am guessing a 2 hander should see a proc rate around 71%.

Our class is so weird.

Last edited by berg : 07/16/07 at 3:29 PM.
#622SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
More evidence that the itemization team is not working very closely with the mechanics team?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#623SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dragonreaper
First off thanks for gathering all this up into one thread, it has helped me alot in dicideing what to do. I do however have a few questions.
First off, whats up with flurry?, I see alot of math here use flurry as 30%, but in game, while duelwielding, it is more around 23%. Is this some kind of tooltip bug I missed or am I just missing something?
In that regard that brings me to my current problem, after a long time of thinking it out I have dicided to choose the Drakefist over the Planar Edge. I can't seem to choose an offhand though, I ruled out the blue weapons as they are all faster then the drakefist but have less dps then the two crafted weapons, and the arena weapon should be an option next season but not this one. So that leaves me with the two crafted weapons. From a stat point I like the stats of the Fel Edged Axe better, I saw a post a while back that showed 2.7/2.2 and 2.7/2.4 have the same chance to steal wf's so the advantege of the Runic Hammer is it's 8.5~ more dmg to wf's and ss, I then ran into another peice of info, I hear the drakefist procs alot, and adding it's proc with flurry the runic hammer goes to 1.43speed, with mongoose it's still at 1.414 but a 2nd proc puts it at 1.38, compairing it to the fel edged which goes to 1.32 is this loss enough of a difference to make up for the 8.5~dmg loss to ss and wf's?, Also I seem to see don't use under speed 2.4 alot, is there a specific reason for that vaule or is it just a general good vaule to tell people to stay slow/slow?
#624SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Thanks for the help on Romulo's Poison. That is more what I was expecting. I'm going to try to test out Abacus versus it (IF THE ABACUS WOULD EVER FREAKING DROP!!!!) and I'll let you know what it shows.

I have a few more questions I'm hoping someone can answer:

- If I were to get Decapitator, would it increase my dps to use that and put my MG Cleaver in my OH, or should I stick to using MG Cleaver in my MH and use this green lvl 70 fist weapon in my OH (it's 2.6 speed, of course)?

- Tornhoof's calculations (50 crit vs. 100 AP vs. 50 hit rating) use a base of 25% crit chance, 2200 AP, and 22% hit chance. WHO HAS THESE STATS??? First off, I'm not sure how an enhancement shaman gets to 2200 AP, and secondly, it seems against your point right after that:
Shaman need all stats in as large of quantities as possible. The above is not a rule, there are no magical numbers that we can point to of "you need this much hit/crit/AP." You need lots of each, probably more Crit than Hit according to models, but still lots of each.
My question is, has there been any work done to see what a more equal distribution of stats would give for the benefit of each incremental point? Though I would have a hard time believing that AP could be UNDER-valued in that model, I would be very curious to see if these weightings were constant for every level of gearing.

- Ring Enchants: +2 weapon damage or +4 to all stats? The mats for +4 to all stats are INSANE for how small the buff is, and I'm not sure +2 weapon damage, with flurry, SS, and WF wouldn't add up to more over time. Any thoughts? With slow weapons preferred for Shaman, I would think that would especially de-value this enchant.

- What reliable tools can I use to judge my dps? How do you test it? I'm trying to test it using recount and SWS, but they give VASTLY different results, and they're not always different in the same direction (sometimes recount is higher, sometimes it's lower), so it's hard to judge which is right.

Thanks for the help, sorry for all the questions.
#625SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Dragonreaper View Post
First off, whats up with flurry?, I see alot of math here use flurry as 30%, but in game, while duelwielding, it is more around 23%. Is this some kind of tooltip bug I missed or am I just missing something?
Flurry is a 30% attack speed increase, but the way attack speed increases work are like this: Weapon speed = Weapon Speed * 1/(100% + 30%). That's the same thing as multiplying by 0.769, which is why you're observing a 23.1% decrease in weapon speed.
In that regard that brings me to my current problem, after a long time of thinking it out I have dicided to choose the Drakefist over the Planar Edge. I can't seem to choose an offhand though, I ruled out the blue weapons as they are all faster then the drakefist but have less dps then the two crafted weapons, and the arena weapon should be an option next season but not this one.
Why would you rule out the blue offhands just for having less DPS? The first post of this thread goes into a lot of detail explaining that slow offhands are necessary, regardless of DPS. Anyway, your only realistic option besides blues is the Runic Hammer (again check main post). That said, there's absolutely no reason the arena weapon shouldn't be an option this season. At 300 points a week (easily attained by a mediocre 2v2 team or a horrible 5v5 team) you'll end up with the Cleaver or Pummeler in 9 weeks.
#726SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Disquette et al - is it possible to modify these simulations to model the 2 stormstrike methods? (hit when lit vs save till after WF CD)

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#727SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
berg
Edit: Removed some unsupportable data.

Long story short though you do gain dps by waiting for the cooldown to fade.

Which sim used is irrelvant I am sure they all have code like this

If (ssCD < ssDelay) // ssDelay usually 10.0, ssCD is time since last ss.
{
//reset ssCD
//do the swings.
}

turn this into
if (ssCD < ssDelay)
{
if (bWfCd == false) // add this line with whatever var they are using to track the wfcd.
{
//reset cd
// do the swings
}
}

and rerun the sims. Then everyone can use whatever sim they prefer. I think they would all show a greater than 1% gain just by waiting for the cooldown to expire every time.

Last edited by berg : 07/20/07 at 1:33 PM.
#728SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
I've lost a bit of steam... the problem with flurry makes me think that it's a pointless exercise. Until I have a good model for that, I'm pretty much disgusted with the whole thing.

I only like models where I can test game against reality and say "look, they match!"

edit - Berg - if you have a whole armory, including talents, how well does your sim match actual dps tests? If you know something I don't, I'm all ears.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue
Disquette - shaman
#729SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nanahanna
I'm looking for a few opinions here. There has been an argument between a few members in my guild over twisting GoA and WF totems or keeping WF down in melee heavy groups. One side says the DPS gained from buffing the party by twisting overweighs the gains of a full shock rotation and holding SS for the WF cooldown, the other side says the opposite is more total DPS. I'm leaning more towards a full shock rotation & waiting for the WF cooldown. Anyone dug deep into this?
#730SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
I tried this out using some of the macros people had posted last week. I wasn't even in combat, just sitting in Shattrath dropping totems. I gave it about 5 minutes of use before I concluded that:
- it requires a lot of concentration on a button in your UI instead of whats going on the game world, which is probably a lot more important
- it used a hell of a lot of mana which means no emergency healing
- watching the WF buff on my weapon I noticed that unless you drop the WF totem earlier than the 9 seconds it lasts on the weapon that you ran the risk of the buff running off someone and missing an opportunity for a proc while you were refreshing the totem. If you're late on the drop, or have a decent amount of latency, you could have this happen quite frequently.

I didn't give it a lot of testing time, and didn't even try it in combat, but to me it personally felt incredibly clunky and took my attention away from anything other than the macro. Not something I'll be doing in a raid.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#731SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Knocksville
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I tried this out using some of the macros people had posted last week. I wasn't even in combat, just sitting in Shattrath dropping totems. I gave it about 5 minutes of use before I concluded that:
- it requires a lot of concentration on a button in your UI instead of whats going on the game world, which is probably a lot more important
- it used a hell of a lot of mana which means no emergency healing
- watching the WF buff on my weapon I noticed that unless you drop the WF totem earlier than the 9 seconds it lasts on the weapon that you ran the risk of the buff running off someone and missing an opportunity for a proc while you were refreshing the totem. If you're late on the drop, or have a decent amount of latency, you could have this happen quite frequently.

I didn't give it a lot of testing time, and didn't even try it in combat, but to me it personally felt incredibly clunky and took my attention away from anything other than the macro. Not something I'll be doing in a raid.
It is entirely possible to have 100% WF uptime and ~90% GoA uptime if your macro is bound with stormstrike (cast sequence SS - WF - GoA, spammed heavily). Use WF rank 1 if you can't sustain a higher rank, the benefit of simultaneous GoA is greater than the increase in AP on only WF procs, especially for yourself and if you have a feral druid DPSing in your group (with 34.44% unbuffed crit, 55+% crit is attainable for me with double goose, LoTP, and GoA).

If you check my armory, note that I have a Shattrath flask on but it is not affecting my stats (I'm logged outside of Hyjal/BT/TK/SSC).

__________________
Male Enhancement.

Last edited by Knocksville : 07/20/07 at 2:16 PM.
#732SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Knocksville View Post
It is entirely possible to have 100% WF uptime and ~90% GoA uptime if your macro is bound with stormstrike (cast sequence SS - WF - GoA, spammed heavily). Use WF rank 1 if you can't sustain a higher rank, the benefit of simultaneous GoA is greater than the increase in AP on only WF procs, especially for yourself and if you have a feral druid DPSing in your group (with 34.44% unbuffed crit, 55+% crit is attainable for me with double goose, LoTP, and GoA).

If you check my armory, note that I have a Shattrath flask on but it is not affecting my stats (I'm logged outside of Hyjal/BT/TK/SSC).
So do people actually try this in raids? I can't imagine trying to do totem twisting on any encounters that require decent mobility and interrupting from shocks. If anyone has had success with it, I'd like to know.
#733SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
I've been totem cycling during raids, it's quite simple with castsequence macro (/castsequence reset=10, Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem). Sustaining shocks is nearly impossible unless you get JoW on your target. You can do a shock once per "rotation" of totems until you've used your first rage, then you have to stick to stormstrike and totems almost exclusively, the 2 minutes feels like an eternity when you're dropping mana that fast. I would definitely say it's worth it to totem cycle, it's a definite dps loss (~6% if you count the GoA you are gaining) but the additional agility for your group outweighs your small margin of dps loss.
#734SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Knocksville
It is only really effective in situations where the following parameters are met:

1. You aren't moving, and if you are, it isn't very far.
2. You have extremely high DPS rogues in your group.
3. You need to burn something down.
4. The fight doesn't punish you for having low mana.

I run the SS-WF-GoA macro on Teron Gorefiend where, unless I get ghosted, my job is to stand there and DPS. WWS for Teron in which no DPS classes had to kill constructs.

__________________
Male Enhancement.
#735SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Upgrading your off hand is a huge huge deal. Your DPS will increase by leaps and bounds by using the season 2 arena weapons in your OH.
Glad to read this because i was planning to make Drakefist MH and S2(2.6) axe OH. It is very hard to think of putting the higher DPS weapon in my OH vs the T2 drakemaw hammer in your MH. Shaman are in the same position hunters were before and somewhat still slower is just always better.
#736SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Corripio
Although it took a bit getting used to, totemweaving has become second nature to me. I totemweave WF & GoA all the time now even in 5 mans. I have the macro set up independent of my SS however and I like it that way. I've also found weaving WF & TA helpful when beginning a fight or to help lower the TPS of my group if they're getting too high.

Although I have a general idea of when I need to recycle the totems, I'm going to try and set up a custom timer using the Ace2 mod Quartz. I already use it as a castbar and GCD timer.

Depending on the fight, I'm also finding that I need to be more conservative with my shocks but most of the time, a SR + mana pot is enough to keep me going. Talents to reduce mana cost on totems is a must (Mental quickness & Totemic Focus). My biggest concern right now is sometimes the totem cycling coincides exactly with my SS CD and GCD screws me into either delaying my SS or delaying the totem cycle. I wish totems were on a seperate GCD or had no GCD at all.

I hope blizzard doesn't catch wind of this and nerf it. They put WF and GoA on the same totem for a reason.
#737SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Corripio View Post
I hope blizzard doesn't catch wind of this and nerf it. They put WF and GoA on the same totem for a reason.
I was going to post this exact sentiment earlier but figured I'd be accused of beating a dead horse. They really cannot have intended people to do this type of totem stacking given how the totem elements work.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#738SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Corripio View Post
I hope blizzard doesn't catch wind of this and nerf it. They put WF and GoA on the same totem for a reason.
Well, it's a possible mechanics bug that works in the favor of the player, so we can expect a fix sooner rather than later probably.
#739SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Areus
I have been toying around with using the Totem Twisting method for my 2 rogue, 1 arms, feral druid group, and they love it. Malan, in order to not have WF expire change the text in the Macro that was posted here to "reset=8" instead of the default 9 that was originally listed in the post.

I did the same trials in Shat that you mentioned and that was an issue that I noticed as well. It really does not take as much concentration to Twist as you think. You get into a mindset after about a week and it becomes natural about knowing when you click the Twisting Macro twice to relay the totems.

I ussually run with 8.7k Mana buffed, and in order to sustain this the order I use is WF->GoA -> SS -> FS. By using Flame Shock it lowers the mana requirement cause it is only required every 12 seconds. If I get down to 1/4 mana and have no UR or Pot timer up, I just resort to the totem twist and SS until one timer comes up. If you can convince your paladins to keep JoW up on the Mob, mana will almost never be an issue.
#740SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
I was using a SS->WF->GoA cycle and that was just not working for me since it was dependent on getting that SS off before the rest of the cycle. I think I'll try switching to a WF->GoA->SS cycle, or WF->SS->GoA. Overall tho, I hate doing it. I find it hard to focus on what's going on around me when I'm stressing over making sure the totems go down when they have to. I'm mostly hoping it gets "fixed" so I don't feel guilty for not doing it.
#741SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hyan
Where would I go about finding the simulator to check what items optimize my dps?
#742SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
The first post of this very thread.
#743SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Locovaca
Im curious as to peoples thoughts on the effect of using a higher dps, fast weapon with another weapon buff in the offhand.

At some point, Slow/Fast(Purple) WF/FT has to be better than Slow/Slow(green) WF/WF.

I know the OP says to move to an AH green rather than an epic dagger, but I find it hard to believe that the dps difference cant be made up by sheer DPS on the offhand with Flametongue helping as well. Not to mention the MH will now be unencumbered by off hand WFs...
#744SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
I think we are starting to get to the point of going in endless circles with this post. There are only so many times that someone can do the math on fast offhands with our horrible imbues like FT and rockbiter- It's already been tested in the numerous other threads that gave birth to this one, and the answer is still WF/WF with slow weapons.
#745SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azaranth
I think people who say "I use Flametongue because my dagger is fast!" don't really understand how Flametongue works.
#746SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oogg
Thank you all for a sane discussion and an excellent collection of valuable enhancement shaman information.

After reading 30 pages, I have noticed that there is no mention of down shifting. Twisting is mentioned (TA & WF), but I think down shifting is also a useful tactic instead of dying to wipe aggro.

Down shifting - Changing weapons/items in the main hand, off hand, or both so as to achieve a reduction in aggro, but not lose the benefits of buffs from talent and item procs.

An example is to equip [Blackout Truncheon] in your off hand to dramatically decrease your DPS while still keeping UR and totems down for the group. Not only does it seem like a more realistic solution than suicide-ankh, it maintains the synergy of the raid and allows you to shed hate. Granted, it is at the cost of personal DPS, but you can just as easily up shift back to the slow offhand when your aggro cools off.

I realize this is a tactic and not a further exploration or clarification of mechanics or itemization, but it is a tactic only possible by the existence of many of the mechanics that you have theorized and tested.
#747SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dakashi
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Disquette et al - is it possible to modify these simulations to model the 2 stormstrike methods? (hit when lit vs save till after WF CD)
I downloaded Pater's java sim, and changed the lines that fired off SS to the following:

		
if (t >= SSLastT + SS_COOLDOWN_DURATION) {
    if(SPAM_SS || !(t < WFLastT + WF_COOLDOWN_DURATION)) {
        Stormstrike();
        UpdateStats();
    }
}
Then I made a SPAM_SS constant, which can be true or false. If it's true, it SS's whenever it's lit. If it's false, it waits until WF is off cooldown.

I used the standard stats that come with the Java sim, and the standard equipment (gladiator OH, Decapitator MH). All I changed was the SS latency to 10.5 for a little more realism.

I ran a few sims, and my results were:

Spamming SS whenever it's lit: Avg DPS = 772
Waiting on SS until WF is off cooldown: Avg DPS = 791

So, according to Pater's sim (which, by the way, is pretty sweet), waiting for WF to be up before firing SS seems to be a decent DPS increase. Would be interesting to see if this is true in real life as well.

__________________
The world can't end today because it's tomorrow in Australia
#748SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Corripio
Originally Posted by oogg View Post
Thank you all for a sane discussion and an excellent collection of valuable enhancement shaman information.

After reading 30 pages, I have noticed that there is no mention of down shifting. Twisting is mentioned (TA & WF), but I think down shifting is also a useful tactic instead of dying to wipe aggro.

Down shifting - Changing weapons/items in the main hand, off hand, or both so as to achieve a reduction in aggro, but not lose the benefits of buffs from talent and item procs.

An example is to equip [Blackout Truncheon] in your off hand to dramatically decrease your DPS while still keeping UR and totems down for the group. Not only does it seem like a more realistic solution than suicide-ankh, it maintains the synergy of the raid and allows you to shed hate. Granted, it is at the cost of personal DPS, but you can just as easily up shift back to the slow offhand when your aggro cools off.
There is probably only 1 fight that I can think of where I'd actually need to do this - void reaver. In other cases, our tank has enough TPS where I will never catch up to him. And on void reaver, its a 100% agro wipe to battle anhk so you can continue to go full steam on it.
#749SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by oogg View Post
Thank you all for a sane discussion and an excellent collection of valuable enhancement shaman information.

After reading 30 pages, I have noticed that there is no mention of down shifting. Twisting is mentioned (TA & WF), but I think down shifting is also a useful tactic instead of dying to wipe aggro.

Down shifting - Changing weapons/items in the main hand, off hand, or both so as to achieve a reduction in aggro, but not lose the benefits of buffs from talent and item procs.

An example is to equip [Blackout Truncheon] in your off hand to dramatically decrease your DPS while still keeping UR and totems down for the group. Not only does it seem like a more realistic solution than suicide-ankh, it maintains the synergy of the raid and allows you to shed hate. Granted, it is at the cost of personal DPS, but you can just as easily up shift back to the slow offhand when your aggro cools off.

I realize this is a tactic and not a further exploration or clarification of mechanics or itemization, but it is a tactic only possible by the existence of many of the mechanics that you have theorized and tested.
If you need to drop aggro and "shaman vanish" isn't a reasonable option, you're much better off to stop shocking than to reduce your melee DPS, due to the 15% threat reduction from Spirit Weapons. Ankhing up is quite reasonable on Void Reaver which is really the only fight where this is a severe problem. (Hydross is very aggro-sensitive too, but that's because of the constant drops... I don't see weapon swapping as effective there.)
#750SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by berg
Long story short though you do gain dps by waiting for the cooldown to fade.
On what are you basing this? waiting for up to 2.9 seconds in bettween each stormstrike _CANNOT_ possibly be better, without doing the nunbers each second you have to wait is 10% longer time in between your SS, over a long fight that is massive.
#751SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stander
Originally Posted by Corripio View Post
There is probably only 1 fight that I can think of where I'd actually need to do this - void reaver. In other cases, our tank has enough TPS where I will never catch up to him. And on void reaver, its a 100% agro wipe to battle anhk so you can continue to go full steam on it.
The problem I find with Battle Anhking is that you lose all your buffs which for me is like 800 AP which pretty much gimps my dps hardcore for the rest of the fight. Downgrading looks great, never thought of it.
#752SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Out of curiosity, does anyone happen to know if dodge/miss/parry/crit/hit/block/glance are all calculated at the same time, or are they all independent of each other?
#753SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Back to the totem twisting, I use this macro:
MACRO 16777255 "AGI" INV_Misc_QuestionMark
/castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike
END
-Question mark icon helps a lot, the icon of the macro will be replaced to the spell what's next
-reset=8 helps to put down windfury in time (before the effect goes off from the weapons) but it works only if you don't spam the macro. It resets only after 8 seconds of the last push.
-If I can't use stormstrike in time I press "alt" and the hotkey of the macro so I skip a stormstrike and jump to the first spell: Windfury Totem

This works quite well for me, I've been using this for like two weeks. My melee group is very happy and it is an upgrade to my party's dps, though my dps goes lower. Of course I can't use totem wtisting on every fight, but there are quite a lot where it's a big boost.
Malan: if you keep spamming this macro and you can cast stormstrike every time it has cooled down the wf effect will be always up on the weapons of your group, I tested it and it's working fine.
#754SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3syrixx
I have been looking at the Lootzor links that people have come up with for enhancement shaman, and many of them seem to be wrong to me. Shouldn’t strength be half the value of attack power? Shouldn’t agility be .884 compared to 1.0 crit rating(25agi=22.1cr)?

A.
1.0(CR) 0.7(HiR) 0.5(AP)
So would that mean also that> .25(STR), 0.884(AGI) ?

B.
1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating
1.0(CR) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)
So would that mean also that> 0.884*(AGI) ?

So putting these on top of each other to make them easier to compare>
A. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) .25(STR) 0.5(AP) 0.7(HiR) ??(HaR)
B. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)

So which is right, A or B?

I could be completely wrong about all of this, but if I am right then could we please update the first page? Lootzor doesn’t allow me to enter haste rating, is there something else I could use to find gear based on the above values?

Thanks in advance!
#755SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
Originally Posted by syrixx View Post
I have been looking at the Lootzor links that people have come up with for enhancement shaman, and many of them seem to be wrong to me. Shouldn’t strength be half the value of attack power? Shouldn’t agility be .884 compared to 1.0 crit rating(25agi=22.1cr)?

A.
1.0(CR) 0.7(HiR) 0.5(AP)
So would that mean also that> .25(STR), 0.884(AGI) ?

B.
1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating
1.0(CR) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)
So would that mean also that> 0.884*(AGI) ?

So putting these on top of each other to make them easier to compare>
A. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) .25(STR) 0.5(AP) 0.7(HiR) ??(HaR)
B. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)

So which is right, A or B?

I could be completely wrong about all of this, but if I am right then could we please update the first page? Lootzor doesn’t allow me to enter haste rating, is there something else I could use to find gear based on the above values?

Thanks in advance!
1 Strength is 2 AP without buffs, so for points considered, Strength will be considered double as valuable as AP. It makes absolutely no sense for strength to be half value for AP. I think you might have been thinking in reverse in terms of math.
#756SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zure
Originally Posted by syrixx View Post
I have been looking at the Lootzor links that people have come up with for enhancement shaman, and many of them seem to be wrong to me. Shouldn’t strength be half the value of attack power? Shouldn’t agility be .884 compared to 1.0 crit rating(25agi=22.1cr)?

A.
1.0(CR) 0.7(HiR) 0.5(AP)
So would that mean also that> .25(STR), 0.884(AGI) ?

B.
1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating
1.0(CR) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)
So would that mean also that> 0.884*(AGI) ?

So putting these on top of each other to make them easier to compare>
A. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) .25(STR) 0.5(AP) 0.7(HiR) ??(HaR)
B. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)

So which is right, A or B?

I could be completely wrong about all of this, but if I am right then could we please update the first page? Lootzor doesn’t allow me to enter haste rating, is there something else I could use to find gear based on the above values?

Thanks in advance!
Just offhand, STR can be modified by Kings, AP can't. If you haven't included that, I'm sure there are 100 other variables that are also left out of these formulae.
#757SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
Pretty much, after modified by kings, you only need 22 effective agility (24.2 after) to almost reach 25 actual agility. As a result, its easier to view 1 agi as 1 crit rating. If you want to be really precise, its slightly worse
#758SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3syrixx
No I hadn't thought about kings, and yes I got my str/ap backwards. Thank you

__________________
#759SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Out of curiosity, does anyone happen to know if dodge/miss/parry/crit/hit/block/glance are all calculated at the same time, or are they all independent of each other?

The answer is: Attacktable, that means for non special attacks they are all dependent.

Attack table - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#760SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hulkling
Originally Posted by Stander View Post
The problem I find with Battle Anhking is that you lose all your buffs which for me is like 800 AP which pretty much gimps my dps hardcore for the rest of the fight. Downgrading looks great, never thought of it.
First time posting heh. Our first VR kill last night, first night of us wholeheartedly attempting him, seemed people had issues dodging giant balls of electricity our actual first night :P

With the tank threat on that fight, I swapped to rockbiter just to see if it made a difference. While I had windfury up, I hit the threat cap very rapidly and jsut stood there. Rockbiter seemed to work better because not only could I control my threat generation to a much finer degree, but I was able to just keep swinging if for nothing else than the Light heals.

Horrible threat cap on that fight, but that is how I crept around it. I believe i swapped my offhand to windfury midfight to get more light procs, but eventually threat was too much, and had to battle ankh just to stay alive (ironic huh), swapped windfury on both weapons, and went balls out till he died without pulling agro.

Seemed that maximizing my damage only maximized my threat. Figured I'd throw in my two cents
#761SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
On VR I hold back shocks and Shamanistic Rage for the first 30 to 60 seconds, then go all-out; last time I popped heroism at like 20%, pulled aggro at 10%, died, ankhed up and finished it off. Besides 1 prot warrior we used 2 ferals, which helps IMO, they have better threat gen when they don't have aggro since they do more white damage. Parse if anyone cares.
#762SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Serrano
First of all I must say reading this thread has been very interesting... all the discussion of weaponspeed now lead to this question:

My weapons at the time are Black Planar Edge (2.7 attackspeed)in the MH and the Season2 Arena weapon (2.6) in the OH. Today I got myself the Mace "Fool´s bane" (2.6) from Illhoof and now I am wondering if the 4 dps deficit to my Black Planar Edge is compensated by the 2.6 attackspeed which better matches my OH so my MH WF proccs are not eaten by my OH. Or is the little slower attackspeed of my MH of no importance and I have leveled blacksmithing for a reason?

Please let me know what you think...
#763SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zure
Originally Posted by Hulkling View Post
First time posting heh. Our first VR kill last night, first night of us wholeheartedly attempting him, seemed people had issues dodging giant balls of electricity our actual first night :P

With the tank threat on that fight, I swapped to rockbiter just to see if it made a difference. While I had windfury up, I hit the threat cap very rapidly and jsut stood there. Rockbiter seemed to work better because not only could I control my threat generation to a much finer degree, but I was able to just keep swinging if for nothing else than the Light heals.

Horrible threat cap on that fight, but that is how I crept around it. I believe i swapped my offhand to windfury midfight to get more light procs, but eventually threat was too much, and had to battle ankh just to stay alive (ironic huh), swapped windfury on both weapons, and went balls out till he died without pulling agro.

Seemed that maximizing my damage only maximized my threat. Figured I'd throw in my two cents
Wouldn't it make much more sense to either:

a) sub in some arcane resist gear,
b) periodically drop a few heals (terokk's gavel!),
c) twist WF/Tranq Air

and continue to use optimal weapon imbues?

This way you add some extra value while keeping your dps at its maximum.
#764SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
On VR I:
1) Pull aggro
2) Put on my shield
3) Dodge, dodge (double Mongoose)
4) Eat the knockback for a free deaggro!
#765SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
I've managed to do that with Gruul, but not Void Reaver, yet. Just stopped attacking on Gruul when I reached 2nd aggro, dodged 4 hateful strikes before the next warrior in line caught up. Void Reaver I usually just "vanish" and keep going after. Our Paladins are pretty good about rebuffs, especially Salvation on myself and our Elemental shaman.

__________________
~ Aeo - Level 70 Draenei Shaman ~
~ Guild: Reclaimed / Realm: Skywall ~
#766SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Why would you want salvation after battle rezzing? Best thing to give you at that point is Might and Wisdom so you can catch up in DPS a bit.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#767SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
On what are you basing this? waiting for up to 2.9 seconds in bettween each stormstrike _CANNOT_ possibly be better, without doing the nunbers each second you have to wait is 10% longer time in between your SS, over a long fight that is massive.
See Dakashi's post - a modified version of Pater's sim shows more damage by waiting for the WF cooldown.

This is one of those problems that can't be properly simulated though, because sims don't screw up. They react much faster than human players do. Actually gaining DPS by this method would probably take some practice. If you delay hitting WF waiting for the cooldown, and then a white hit procs WF and puts you back on cooldown before you can get the stormstrike in, you're going to do less DPS than you would have if you'd just hit SS as soon as it was up.

I've been playing around with using a WF monitor and delaying stormstrike, and I like it so far, but individual results may vary.
#768SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Vice
Has anyone else tried out the Cystalforged Trinket from the Ogri'la Rep?

I think its a good trinket, but after reading all of this for the first time, Im really not sure how it stacks up to the other trinkets listed which I dont really have access to before the other melee classes in my raids

Im definately a sucker for a fast offhand as well...gotta change that asap.

Crystalforged Trinket - 1min CD.
#769SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Lujaar View Post
See Dakashi's post - a modified version of Pater's sim shows more damage by waiting for the WF cooldown.

This is one of those problems that can't be properly simulated though, because sims don't screw up. They react much faster than human players do. Actually gaining DPS by this method would probably take some practice. If you delay hitting WF waiting for the cooldown, and then a white hit procs WF and puts you back on cooldown before you can get the stormstrike in, you're going to do less DPS than you would have if you'd just hit SS as soon as it was up.

I've been playing around with using a WF monitor and delaying stormstrike, and I like it so far, but individual results may vary.
The rule I generally go by is if I think there is more than 1.5 seconds left I just go ahead and SS, otherwise I wait. I've gotten pretty good at guessing the lag on the windfury timer. As long as the little ball that I go by turns red as I SS, I'm happy

I think there is a line between the loss of SS dps caused by waiting and the increased DPS from more windfury procs due to guaranteeing that the SS has a chance to proc windfury. 1.5 seconds seems like a good compromise.
#770SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Galeyra
Concerning hit

Hello, I've been reading here in these Forums for some days now. That's because I'm a Resto-specced Shaman and i want to try out Enhancement, and here is so much information about it.
Now my questions regarding hit and miss:

I got many different views about it, some say 100 hit rating is enough, some would swear going to the cap of 261 is best.(I'm not sure if its really the cap, this is what i've been reading here most). So could you clarify what hit percentage is now really the cap and if it's worth to reach it?

an example one many i can't explain to myself:
It's from WWS, an i always see high miss percentages, i'm wondered about
WWS link
looking into his armory(Link), he got around 10% hit from gear and 9%from talents

so he should miss aroung 5-6% on white hits, depending on how much you need to reach the cap. on yellow he should miss at all from what i've heard.
but if you look at WWS his white hits miss around 17% and wf at 8,7% and SS 1,8%.
How do you explain that? Does void reaver dodging counts as "miss" there?
Please explain me this. Note that this high miss percentages appear on almost every enhancement shaman i see on WWS.
and sorry for the bad english.
#771SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Galeyra View Post
Hello, I've been reading here in these Forums for some days now. That's because I'm a Resto-specced Shaman and i want to try out Enhancement, and here is so much information about it.
Now my questions regarding hit and miss:

I got many different views about it, some say 100 hit rating is enough, some would swear going to the cap of 261 is best.(I'm not sure if its really the cap, this is what i've been reading here most). So could you clarify what hit percentage is now really the cap and if it's worth to reach it?

an example one many i can't explain to myself:
It's from WWS, an i always see high miss percentages, i'm wondered about
WWS link
looking into his armory(Link), he got around 10% hit from gear and 9%from talents

so he should miss aroung 5-6% on white hits, depending on how much you need to reach the cap. on yellow he should miss at all from what i've heard.
but if you look at WWS his white hits miss around 17% and wf at 8,7% and SS 1,8%.
How do you explain that? Does void reaver dodging counts as "miss" there?
Please explain me this. Note that this high miss percentages appear on almost every enhancement shaman i see on WWS.
and sorry for the bad english.
Anything that isn't a hit, crit, or glance, is considered a "Miss" for the total miss category. If you expand the melee attacks you can see a breakdown of the actual misses, dodges, and parries.

I've recently dropped about 90 hit rating and haven't looked back. Sadly some bad gearing choices were made before I tried this out.
#772SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khlysti
For quite a while now we have worked with the concept that 'small haste effects which take weapon speed from just above 1.5 to just below it will decrease dps'. This is due to interaction with the WF cd timer, and was shown via sims, but I have not seen any ingame tests done to see the actual effects.

So, out I went to do a bit of testing on blasted lands mobs. I used 2 'Sergeant's Warhammer of ***' (2.1 speed, and level 12 greens, hence low dps numbers) as the weapons and first used 104 haste rating, the second set was done with 73 haste rating. The 104 haste rating set had a ring and trinket slot empty, the 73 had some green items in them to make sure no AP was lost when the Band of Devastion was removed. I also did not use my helm, as it has a haste proc meta gem. Total change in stats between the 2 sets - first set has 31 more haste rating than second, all other stats equal.

First set, 42 minutes 8 seconds (2528 seconds), damage done: 1000054 of which 59.5% white, 40.5% WF. Speed with flurry = 1.47.
Total dps: 396 of which white dps: 235, wf: 160

Second set, 43 minutes 17 seconds (2597 seconds), damage done: 1000194 of which 59.3% white, 40.7% WF. Speed with flurry = 1.51.
Total dps: 385 of which white dps: 228, wf: 157

Now clearly, as we all know, just dealing 2 million total damage is not enough to really conclude anything with the extreme randomness of shaman dps, however this does seem to show one thing, even when crossing the '1.5 speed barrier' with a small gain in haste rating we still see a gain in dps. WF dps was close enough to call as no change, clearly not the drastic loss the sims had lead us to believe, and if there is a loss it would then need a less than 31 haste rating change, basically a value so small as to be of no consequence (smallest single haste gain I could find was 26 rating).

The white damage however is clearly boosted by the presence of the haste, a 3.07% gain in white dps from 2.95% of haste looks to be a correct value. Total dps went up by 2.86% when going from 1.51 speed (flurried) to 1.47 speed (flurried). It would be nice to see some more data collected, but from this atleast it seems there is no point at which haste is bad at all, and it is infact a very strong stat for us no matter what our current flurried weapon speed is.
#773SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Heya Khlysti, thanks for the great testing!

I personally think that lag has something to do with weapon hit times, so it might be a slightly better test to have something like 1.4 flurried speed versus 1.65 flurried speed.

In any case, those results are very interesting - thank you for them.

__________________
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Disquette - shaman
#774SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Roonie
Offhand choices.

Hello everyone =)

I was wondering if there was any reason I should get the [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] over the [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler] for my new OH.

I only ask because the axe gets mentioned alot, and the mace does not - someone please enlighten me if there is actually a reason that the axe is better?

Also I would appreciate it if someone could have a look at my armoury page and see if I'm doing anything wrong? Personally i'm pretty happy currently - Bare in mind we're about to kill Gruul, So thats about the the level of loot I have access to. Planning on swapping out +Hit trinket with the Bloodlust Broach soon, and also the Hourglass trinket with the Dragonspine Trophy when nubcakes drops it.
Currently also grinding heroic mana tombs for the uber totem.

Thank you all in advance!

http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...aenor&n=Roonie Here's me!! please don't be too mean!! ~Hides~
#775SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Kaubel
It's possible to add that to your profile.

- User CP (top of this page)
- Edit WoW Profile
- Character Profile URL
#826SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
That's exactly how I was calculating my values in my post above, which Rob said was incorrect. So ... was I correct after all? ie, 1 AP / 1.43 HR = 0.6999 ~ 7 AEP.
1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 0.9 Haste

2 AP / 1.43 HR = 1.40 AEP
#827SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Finally had a syphon drop, so i'm happy for now!

Boneweave Girdle
Binds when picked up
Waist Mail
556 Armor
+38 Agility (39)
+26 Intellect
Durability 50 / 50
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 17. (11.9)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 24. (24)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76. (38)

Total 112.9

Is that right by these numbers? Seems alot higher than Valestalker Girdle.
#828SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Rob
[Valestalker Girdle]
+27 Agility (x1.7 = 45.9)
+25 Stamina
+18 Intellect
Durability 50 / 50
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves haste rating by 36. (x2.2 = 79.2)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76. (76)
201.1

[Boneweave Girdle]
+38 Agility (x1.7 = 64.6)
+26 Intellect
Durability 50 / 50
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 17. (x1.25 = 21.25)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 24. (x1.75 = 42)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76. (76)
203.85

By my valuations*, yes, Boneweave is a bit better than Valestalker. [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] is the next best choice:
+29 Agility (x1.7 = 49.3)
+37 Stamina
Red Socket (x8x2.2 = 17.6)
Yellow Socket (x8x2.2 = 17.6)
Socket Bonus: +4 Stamina
Durability 40 / 40
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19. (x1.75 = 33.25)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76. (76)
193.75


* Based on averaging Pater and Disquette's AEP calculations, since I don't know which is right and the true value likely lies somewhere between the two. I do assume Kings 100% of the time since that's what I'm getting these days. This also uses the current "best guess" for Haste, which values it identically to Strength with Kings or slightly better than Strength without Kings.

Last edited by Rob : 07/25/07 at 8:10 PM. Reason: explain rationale, fix item links
#829SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ketrew
Currently, my MH is the Drakefist Hammer (Speed 2.7) and my OH is the Runic Hammer (Speed 2.4). Before I read this thread I fully intended to upgrade my Drakefist Hammer to the Dragonmaw (Speed 2.7) and eventually replace my Runic Hammer with the Arena OH. Now that I've ready this thread though I'm questioning having a MH that is slower then my OH. I'd love some advise on if its still worth it to make the Dragonmaw and if not what weapon should I look to replace my Drakefist Hammer with.

Tenion
Silverhand Shaman
#830SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Short answer: yes, it's worth it (unless you have easy access to 100 DPS weapons from BT).
#831SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sintor
Would this be correct then? Reasoning behind the numbers is 1/stat-value + 10% for kings on agi/str; using thousands instead of decimal points.

Used these equations:
1 / 1str = 1, moved up to 1000 + 10% = 1100
1 / 0.97agi = 1.031, moved up to 1030 + 10% = 1133
1 / 2AP = .5, moved up to 500
1 / 1.43HR = .699, moved up to 699
1 / 1CR = 1, moved up to 1000
Allowing purple gems to be slotted seems to change the lineup a bit, most noticeably things like Liar's Tongue Gloves coming out near the top. I think this should be fairly accurate, barring the value of haste rating, which should only change the relative positions of a few items.
#832SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
At a glance, there's nothing glaringly wrong with those numbers, except that agi shouldn't be coming out higher than CR or STR
#833SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Finally had a syphon drop, so i'm happy for now!

Boneweave Girdle
Binds when picked up
Waist Mail
556 Armor
+38 Agility (39)
+26 Intellect
Durability 50 / 50
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 17. (11.9)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 24. (24)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76. (38)

Total 112.9

Is that right by these numbers? Seems alot higher than Valestalker Girdle.
I have the agility totalling to 37, but otherwise I think that is correct. Even though Boneweave might be slightly better for dps, I still think Valestalker is the better item because it has stamina.
#834SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sintor
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
At a glance, there's nothing glaringly wrong with those numbers, except that agi shouldn't be coming out higher than CR or STR
I guess I don't understand how that's possible if the given comparison is:

To put it another way, 0.97 AGI = 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 Hit = 0.9 Haste
That's essentially saying that less than one point of agility is equal to one point of strength/cr, albeit by a very small (.03) margin. Right?
#835SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Originally Posted by Sintor View Post
I guess I don't understand how that's possible if the given comparison is:

To put it another way, 0.97 AGI = 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 Hit = 0.9 Haste
That's essentially saying that less than one point of agility is equal to one point of strength/cr, albeit by a very small (.03) margin. Right?
Agi gives less crit % per point than crit rating -- even with kings -- your comparison is off somewhere. I'm guessing you are mixing "valuation" and "equivalency" formulas. For example you might have
STR = 1
CR = 1
AGI = 0.97

If you mix that up and say 0.97 AGI = 1 CR = 1 STR you get an incorrect result.
#836SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Sintor
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Agi gives less crit % per point than crit rating -- even with kings -- your comparison is off somewhere. I'm guessing you are mixing "valuation" and "equivalency" formulas. For example you might have
STR = 1
CR = 1
AGI = 0.97

If you mix that up and say 0.97 AGI = 1 CR = 1 STR you get an incorrect result.
So what would the proper weight be, given that example?

Edit: Looking at your above post with the two belt values, ignoring the one with haste rating (lootzor can't compute), it looks like they came up with nearly the same conclusion.

Last edited by Sintor : 07/25/07 at 9:52 PM.
#837SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ketrew
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Short answer: yes, it's worth it (unless you have easy access to 100 DPS weapons from BT).
Thanks Rob!
#838SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
Ok clearly some of the numbers problem is my fault due to "lost in translation" of some of pater/tornhoof/disquette's posts on this stuff.

So - Rob/Someone who knows what the hell they're talking about, help us out and tell me exactly what I need to change the first post to read to clear all this up.

Oooh big news from the Blue posts -
WoW BlueTracker: Blue Response plz to Meta gem question.
Relentless Earthstorm Diamond
+12 Agility & 3% Increased Critical Damage

It's a crit damage modifier, which means it's increasing the damage your crits do, not the chance they have to happen. It isn't specific to any school or damage type, it works for spells, melee, and ranged.

Instead of getting a 100% damage bonus with a crit, you would be getting a 103% damage bonus with a crit using that meta gem.
He then tells another guy that its a 3% bonus on the base crit damage bonus - so if a spell through talents is modified to 150% damage, the 3% is applied to the base crit damage.
Yes. It's an increase of the base.

Last edited by Malan : 07/25/07 at 10:56 PM.
#839SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azide
Why do people ignore sta/int in lootzor? I understand the point for maxing the DPS stats, but I can't imagine going after all the "best" pieces, which happen to be leather with no int. 4-5k mana has to blow.

Sta isn't really an issue (most pieces have a reasonable amount) but for my own lootzor comparisons I include it along with int.

edit: AP being 1, I have sta=0.8 and int=0.25. These small amounts really do skew around a few of the "best" pieces.
#840SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Azide View Post
Why do people ignore sta/int in lootzor? I understand the point for maxing the DPS stats, but I can't imagine going after all the "best" pieces, which happen to be leather with no int. 4-5k mana has to blow.

Sta isn't really an issue (most pieces have a reasonable amount) but for my own lootzor comparisons I include it along with int.

edit: AP being 1, I have sta=0.8 and int=0.25. These small amounts really do skew around a few of the "best" pieces.
The problem with int is any item that has it is going to be worse than a similar item without it. Since our shocks don't scale as our gear improves, over time the contribution from shocks just gets lower and lower. Realistically you'll never have such a small mana pool that you can't do SS+totems so anytime you can spend item points on a melee dps stat rather than int it's going to be a net gain.
#841SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
So - Rob/Someone who knows what the hell they're talking about, help us out and tell me exactly what I need to change the first post to read to clear all this up.
We have 3 different sets of formulas bouncing around. To the best of my knowledge, here's what we have been given:

Disquette's sim:
STR=2 AEP (2.2 w/Kings)
AGI=1.33 AEP (1.47 w/Kings)
CR=1.51 AEP
HR=1.08 AEP
AP=1 AEP
Equivalency formula without Kings:
1 AP = 0.50 STR = 0.75 AGI = 0.66 CR = 0.93 HR
Equivalency formula with Kings:
1 AP = 0.45 STR = 0.68 AGI = 0.66 CR = 0.93 HR

Pater's sim (numbers based on Pawn string in your first post):
STR=2 AEP (2.2 w/Kings)
AGI=1.8 AEP (2 w/Kings)
CR=2 AEP
HR=1.4 AEP
AP=1 AEP
Equivalency formula without Kings:
1 AP = 0.50 STR = 0.55 AGI = 0.50 CR = 0.71 HR
Equivalency formula with Kings:
1 AP = 0.45 STR = 0.50 AGI = 0.50 CR = 0.71 HR

Tornhoof's sim
2200 AP, 25% crit, 22% hit = 763.3 DPS
+100 AP = 21.5DPS increase
+50 CR = 21 DPS increase
+50 HR = 15 DPS increase
so:

50 STR = 21.50 DPS (23.65 w/Kings)
50 AGI = 18.56 DPS (20.42 w/Kings)
50 CR = 21 DPS
50 HR = 15 DPS
50 AP = 10.75 DPS
Equivalency formula without Kings:
1 AP = 0.50 STR = 0.58 AGI = 0.51 CR = 0.72 HR
Equivalency formula with Kings:
1 AP = 0.45 STR = 0.53 AGI = 0.51 CR = 0.72 HR

In each case, the first set of numbers is what you'd use for Lootzor, or Pawn strings. The second set of numbers is only presented as an item of interest, not as a practical means of deciding what gear is best to use.

What about Haste?
Preliminary numbers indicate that each point of haste rating is worth approximately the same amount as 1 Strength with Kings; i.e. 2.2 AEP. This only holds true as long as your attack speed is not pulled below 1.5 hasted: at that point, the average value for each point of haste drops, even if you are brought below the speed at which overall DPS picks up again (~1.35* flurried hasted weapon speed). Thus, optimal DPS will probably require that no combination of your passive haste plus any haste effects (Mongoose, Dragonspine, Dragonmaw, Haste pots, etc.) will bring you below a 1.5 weapon speed hasted unless they also drop you below 1.35* speed. Because Dragonspine Trophy, the Dragonmaw proc, and Heroism grant such large amounts of haste, they will almost certainly drop you below 1.5 speed if the rest of your gear doesn't drop you into the "valley" between 1.35 and 1.5 -- make sure that Flurry, your passive haste, and a mongoose proc doesn't put you in that zone.

* This figure is from memory and NOT canonical by any means, please do correct it if it's wrong.


Edit:
This isn't really done yet, I would like to round up all the relevant links and create some useable Lootzor links, clean up all the text -- but I wanted to have something for you in the meantime. I'm going to bed now and I'll come back to this tomorrow.

Last edited by Rob : 07/26/07 at 2:23 AM.
#842SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Ok clearly some of the numbers problem is my fault due to "lost in translation" of some of pater/tornhoof/disquette's posts on this stuff.

So - Rob/Someone who knows what the hell they're talking about, help us out and tell me exactly what I need to change the first post to read to clear all this up.
The ratios are 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 0.9 Haste. This means, for example, 1 crit rating is worth 1 'point' while 1 hit rating is worth 0.7 'points'. We just use this ratio to assign each stat on an item a value and then add those values up to get a total that we can compare against other items. A higher total is better.
This kind of statement is probably the source of the confusion. It's correct, but it starts out with equivalences then uses weights to describe the items. If someone wasn't already familiar with the difference between the two or just wasn't reading close enough they might miss the conversion and come to the wrong conclusion.
#843SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
I have the agility totalling to 37, but otherwise I think that is correct. Even though Boneweave might be slightly better for dps, I still think Valestalker is the better item because it has stamina.
The stamina doesn't really matter for me, I'm at 9.1k unbuffed and in a raid environment its at 11.1k.

Originally Posted by Azide View Post
Why do people ignore sta/int in lootzor? I understand the point for maxing the DPS stats, but I can't imagine going after all the "best" pieces, which happen to be leather with no int. 4-5k mana has to blow.

Sta isn't really an issue (most pieces have a reasonable amount) but for my own lootzor comparisons I include it along with int.

edit: AP being 1, I have sta=0.8 and int=0.25. These small amounts really do skew around a few of the "best" pieces.
I don't think any of us ignore int, it is just alot less important, with AI/motw I have about 7.5k which is easily enough for anything i've encountered so far. SR is the single best regen ability in the game now (roughly 10k mana regen in 40 seconds)

That said I would never be concerned if any item doesn't have int on them.

Last edited by Stigmata : 07/26/07 at 3:58 AM.
#844SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shalas
Originally Posted by Azide View Post
Why do people ignore sta/int in lootzor? I understand the point for maxing the DPS stats, but I can't imagine going after all the "best" pieces, which happen to be leather with no int. 4-5k mana has to blow.

Sta isn't really an issue (most pieces have a reasonable amount) but for my own lootzor comparisons I include it along with int.
Using sta as anything other than a tiebreaker for numerical item comparisons nearly always gives fairly bad results. You pretty much either need more health, or you don't -- going from 11k to 12k hp is beneficial, but not very. You'll still die if you pull aggro, and in many cases it won't even let you survive another aoe without getting healed. Once you're past the stage where items with no sta exist in significant amounts, you can pretty much just treat it like resistances on gear -- you wouldn't give up a single point of agi for fire resist on a fight that doesn't deal fire damage, and similarly you shouldn't give up any dps stats for sta once you aren't dying due to a lack of sta. Even if you do need more sta, boosting it's lootzor value is rarely the right way to do it. Lootzor is mainly for comparing items in one slot, but in the case of sta you want to give up the lowest amount of dps stats for a certain amount of sta.

For example, you have three slots that you could swap out for sta-heavy gear. Slot 1 has a 100 AP dps item or a 70 AP, 35 sta item. Slot 2 has a 115 AP dps item or a 100 AP, 15 sta item. Slot 3 has a 50 AP dps item or 40 AP, 20 sta item. If you need 25 more sta, the correct choice is to switch slots 2 and 3 to sta items (240 total AP), rather than switching slot 1 (235 total AP). However, no lootzor value of sta will tell you to do this -- the only possible sets of best items are: All DPS; Sta in 3 only; Sta in 1 and 3; All Sta.
#845SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
I would highly recommend NOT to overlook stamina nor dont look at agility as only source of crit rating.

There are many fights ahead that require certain ammount of stamina to survive: at High Warlord Naj'entus (BT 1) eveyone gets 8k damage as part of enocounter; at Rage Winterchill you want to have enough to survive 2 icebolts + initial blast (10,5k i think); at Archimonde survive 3-4 ticks of grip/doomfire or forget it etc etc. Its NOT only about pulling aggro. 9k or 11k makes acually a life or death difference (for example. we combatressed a mage at Najentus, only to find out that even with fortitude, his max hp was lower than 8k... oneshot).

Same way I do rate agility higher than CR. While 25 agi is 1% or 21 CR, having agility instead of CR gives you dodge. I have unbuffed 17% dodge. This does help vs random damage in many occasions, Mount Hyjal trashpacks to name a few and belive me, its very nice to dodge a soulshard at Archimonde...

I am not trying to say, that sacrifice dps for stats, but do not go full out dps without any health, dodge nor INT. Your a shaman, hybrid, afterall. If you dont want to utilize that hybridness, benefit of mail armorclass, defences, together with some healingpower... reroll a rogue?
#846SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Hey Rob,

while my initial numbers were OK enough to show that hit wasn't as important as everyone had thought, they're not good numbers (because i know that flurry is modeled wrong). You can take mine out of there until I finally get a better set of numbers up.
#847SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Nemaa
Back to the equivalencies, I'm using this formula:
1CR = 1STR = 2.2AP = 1.43HR = 0.9 Haste = 1.02 AGI

This means 1 crit is better than 1 ap, 1 hit rating and 1 agility, worse than 1 point of haste and equal to 1 point of strength. If I want to determine which item is better, I divide the stats with the numbers like this:

Shoulders of the Hidden Predator
38 agi / 1.02 = 35.294
26 critr / 1 = 26
76 ap / 2.2 = 34.55
Total value = 95.84

Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes
27 agi / 1,02 = 26.47
37 haster / 0.9 = 41.11
74 ap / 2.2 = 33.64
Total value = 101.22

Last edited by Nemaa : 07/26/07 at 8:08 AM.
#848SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Sebudai, I see you are using Rising tide in MH and Syphon on OH. I used to do the same because I tought Rising Tide would eat more wf procs and it lowers my DPS. Yesterday I tried out and swapped them and I saw much bigger white hits/crits. I never saw 3400 wf crits before... I think its better to have this 0.2 slower weapon in MH and have Rising Tide proc a bit more wfs than having the faster but lesser end damage axe in MH. My white hits are 50-55% of my damage, windfury attacks are only about 30-40%. Anyway I'll go to blasted lands and test it on the weekend.
#849SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Same way I do rate agility higher than CR. While 25 agi is 1% or 21 CR, having agility instead of CR gives you dodge. I have unbuffed 17% dodge. This does help vs random damage in many occasions, Mount Hyjal trashpacks to name a few and belive me, its very nice to dodge a soulshard at Archimonde...
This is the exact reason why I'm not afraid at all to get agility. It's not that far off from crit rating and offers other, tangible benefits. Granted I tend to stay away from the hunter/rogue items where agility is obviously designed to be a source of attack power.
#850SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malus
I am assuming that when you guys keep saying Arena OH, they are referring to One Hand and not the Off Hand. Am I correct in saying this? Because shaman typically want the slowest possible OH weapon.

And also, my guild had asked me about getting dual Battle Master enchants for the raid. But I read that the group heal generates threat.
Is this true, and have any shaman had experience with BM enchants?
#926SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Was the Ashtongue talisman nerfed recently? I got it a few days ago and every WWS I look at it is hovering around 50% uptime. Of course if I managed to get a Stormstrike off before the buff expired it wouldn't accurately display on WWS, but I find it hard to believe with latency it is possible to keep Power Surge up.
#927SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Was the Ashtongue talisman nerfed recently? I got it a few days ago and every WWS I look at it is hovering around 50% uptime. Of course if I managed to get a Stormstrike off before the buff expired it wouldn't accurately display on WWS, but I find it hard to believe with latency it is possible to keep Power Surge up.
You could download this mod: Flurry Uptime Meter | World of Warcraft @ Curse.com

Open flurrymeter.lua and change:

if (arg1 == "You gain Flurry.") then
to
if (arg1 == "You gain Power Surge.") then
and
if (arg1 == "Flurry fades from you.") then
to
if (arg1 == "Power Surge fades from you.") then
Then go beat on some blasted lands mobs and see what it shows.
#928SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Me spamming stormstrike for 15 minutes : http://i10.tinypic.com/4ptaqex.jpg

I changed the lines like you had said and I'm assuming that the top right % = surge uptime?
#929SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Me spamming stormstrike for 15 minutes : http://i10.tinypic.com/4ptaqex.jpg

I changed the lines like you had said and I'm assuming that the top right % = surge uptime?
Yup, 85% uptime is pretty good, equivalent to 234 passive ap, can't beat that.
#930SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nazgull
question about weapon speed

hello guys 1st time i see this kind of forum and for long time i am searching for shaman melee advices or so

anyway i use dragonstrike as mh and netherzim on oh (supremus weapon)

i wanted to know if this combo is fine as for the 3 sec wf c/d
and ofc if its worth it to lose the stats on other off hands like the 1 from nejntus



thanks alot !
#931SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
Read the OP thoroughly and maybe some pages of the discussion and you should have your answer.
#932SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nazgull
Originally Posted by Ruzia View Post
Read the OP thoroughly and maybe some pages of the discussion and you should have your answer.
well cant realy find it ;[
searching for like 20 min now ;d
#933SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
T.K.
Sup all. I've read all this thread from start to end. Read all the Flurry thread. Read the other Itemization thread and so on. All the stuff about gems and so i'm going forward to it, like going for the crit/str gems into yellow slots, str gems into red and so on...

I'm currently farming the S2 arena weapon to use as off-hand. Trying to get the T4 chest and shoulder. I really think i understand and know all the mechanics that was discussed in here forth and back into all these threads.

What i can't undestand is my actual DPS in the current level of gear i am. I really think i'm doing low damage, with the level of gear i am. My guild have some nice DPS, that hit hard and constantly, mantaining high DPS most raids. (Well geared rogues, mages, locks for our current level).

We are at the moment wiping on 50% on Morogrim and already killed loot Reaver and trying Al'ar. Right now when i'm typing this my guild is trying Morogrim, but they don't allow me in, as our ret pally is already in. They aways bring to the raid either of us, and no way both can be in, as they think that would be most...hybrid.

They really think my DPS is higher and my buffs are higher than his buffs, but they left him in to tank the murlocs and so. I Still needed the loots from it, but as we didn't killed it yet, i can't go in until we perfect the strategy.

That said, i want to post some screenies to show u guys my performance at Gruul and Mag. Those fights i was using a Fool's bane and now i'm already with my Dragonmaw, as u can check on my armory. i'm going for screenshots because is the only thing i got, if it's not allowed or unpleasant because of the higher bandwith i apologize in advance.

I'd like to know what your opinions would be, if that level of DPS is normal or not, as i'm kinda lost as i saw people reporting higher numbers.

The Mag fight i had clicking duty as i do all the time.

Gruul Fight ------

Total DPS
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...totalgruul.jpg

Total Damage
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...totalGruul.jpg

Heal performed
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...totalgruul.jpg

My DPS total Breakdown
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...nGruulRyla.jpg

Warrior DPS Breakdown into my group
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ulWarrior1.jpg

Rogue 1 DPS Breakdown into my group
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ruulRogue1.jpg

Rogue 2 DPS Breakdown into my group
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ruulRogue2.jpg

Rogue 3 dPS Breakdown into my group
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ruulRogue3.jpg


Mag Fight ---------

Full Damage Mag
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u.../Danototal.jpg

DPS Mag
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...0/Dpstotal.jpg



Here's my armory so u can quick check it. I know my trinkets sucks and i'm trying to get the badges for the Bloodlust and drop the Hourglass. My rings are not the best for the level, but couldn't get the unique prince drop ring we got.

The Armory

Sorry again for all the screenshots, but was all i had from these fights...

Last edited by T.K. : 07/31/07 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Trying to get a sequence into my script...
#934SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Having the Runic OH with a 2.7 MH is going to mess up your DPS a little bit regardless since its going to inevitably eat some WF cooldowns. You can do a bit better on a few items - for example on your Rip Flayer leggings you put in a Blue gem in order to get a +6 Stam socket bonus. That bonus isn't helping you DPS any harder though, and you'd likely be better off putting in a full DPS gem instead. On your gloves you skipped the +3 crit rating bonus though, which is worth getting since Crit Rating and Str are equivalent AEP values before BoK is taken into account, but the crit rating from the gem/bonus would likely make up for it.

Given your weapons and gear I'd say you should be doing closer to 600 DPS on Gruul, not 470. I was doing 400 DPS at the start of KZ in blues in comparison. The arena axe will give you a huge boost, and so would getting the Totem of Astral Winds. On your gruul fight it looks like you cast Healing Wave at least 3 times, maybe as many as 6. Thats a minimum of 12 seconds not DPSing, and as high as 18 seconds. That accounts for part of your DPS drop, and that's also time that you are not providing Unleashed Rage to your group.

On Mag you need to fight to not be a clicker. Ranged are able to stand right at the cube and DPS full time, putting a melee on it makes you pretty worthless in Phase 2.

On a wholly separate note, try to arrange your post into some more logical paragraphs next time. (I realize you said you're in a raid right now) Its really hard to read when ever line is separated out like that.
#935SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3T.K.
Thankx for the input and i'll try to tell why of some stuff i'm using:

First of all, the Runic Hammer was the best available offhand i could get with a decent level. I sure think it's too fast for what i want, but didn't want to get a 2.6 speed weapon as although the number of eaten procs will be fewer, the DPS dif won't be THAT great. So i forged it and working slooooowwwwlly onto my arena S2 weapon.

The blue gem into my pants where socketed because i had so little HP, and healer kept complaining that in fights like VR they had to zomghealhim!! so much that was a pain in the ass. So i stick it in to be on 9-9.5k HP buffed on raids. I understand i could have some better dps-oriented gem into that slot, but put that on purpose.

The gloves, if i'm not mistaken and didn't forgot anything, had the best rating into lootzor.com with double str gems. One of those slots is blue, so might be it...dunno.

I rerolled from my holy pally to this shammy, so i might be a little juiced into healing when things go a bit mad. I like to top myself most of the time too so i can save some healer's mana.

At Mag, most of the time i'm clicking on cube because other retards can't click a floating cube in front of them at the right time O.o And our ranged DPS aways complains that they can't stop DPSing to click it. So most of the time we have rogues, DPS warrs or me clicking it. But we do have ranged clicking too...go figures...

I basically did all this reply because i expected a dPS closer to what u said, 600, and i'm continualy getting closer to 450-485 range.

Really dunno what i'm doing wrong.
#936SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Since you're taking a dps spot, plus buffing your dps group, you need to focus on dps. Healing should be something you do in emergency situations or at times when you can't get in melee range. Every time you leave Mag to go click, that's time your group isn't getting unleashed rage.

On Void Reaver, it's possible for you to take next to no damage at all. Stand in pounding range, then back out right before the pounding, then step back in so you aren't in arcane ball range. Deadly boss mods is great if you need decent timers.

You should try to pick up the 2p t4 and a helm with a meta gem. I'd suggest chest and shoulders for t4, since they're your weakest slots. That combined with the upgrades you already have planned should put you in a great spot for gear. The 2.6 offhand is a must, missing main hand windfury crits is devastating to your dps.

Also, if you're crazy like me you can drop your points in resto and put them in elemental.
#937SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Only thing that really catches my eyes is that your pants are unenchanted (an easy 40 AP/10 crit rating). Are you keeping behind the target, making sure you have maximum contact time, using cooldowns appropriately (damage windows), and making sure you have the right buffs (Battle Shout, SoE, Salv, etc) maintained throughout the fight?

On a different note, after some recent upgrades (Dragonspine/Merciless Offhand), I'm having some real issues with threat, especially on trash. Part of it can be explained with half the raid using outdated threat meter mods, but not all. How do you deal with the fact that you can get this kind of uncontrollable burst at almost any time:

11:08'52.140	Magtheridon's Blast Nova hits Hortez for 2407 Fire damage
156	Hortez's Melee crits Magtheridon for 2350
468	Hortez's Earth Shock hits Magtheridon for 1655 Nature damage
890	Hortez's Improved Leader of the Pack heals Hortez for 462
11:08'53.171	Hortez gains 12 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
250	Hortez gains Flurry
281	Hortez's Windfury Attack crits Magtheridon for 3593
281	Hortez's Windfury Attack crits Magtheridon for 4171
546	Hortez's Melee hits Magtheridon for 501 (glancing)
11:08'54.406	Hortez's Melee crits Magtheridon for 2196
I believe it's been awhile since the main tanks have had a decent upgrade, but does tank threat scale much anyway? I try to keep a larger threat buffer between me and the tanks, but on trash, this isn't really feasible unless I want to start attacking when mobs are on 30% health. I am getting Salv (except on that Mag attempt because I assumed I wouldn't need it).

How do you better geared Shaman deal with threat?
#938SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shadow4089
here is a quick question. Shammies can use 2H weapons obv if they spec it, but how useful it is compared to duel weapons? With WF proc better with slow weapons and stuff, whats the vs. between the two or is it just more of a leveling up spec?
#939SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by panny View Post
I am getting Salv [b](except on that Mag attempt because I assumed I wouldn't need it)[b].

How do you better geared Shaman deal with threat?
Salv. Always. If you can only get 1 pally buff it should be salv, on any fight where threat matters anyway which is just about all of them. If you're getting salv and still having consistent aggro trouble you'll probably need to look at what your tanks are doing(or not doing).
#940SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3seminarca
Originally Posted by panny View Post
does tank threat scale much anyway?
Druid threat scales well with AP and crit. Warriors will stack block value for threat.

Originally Posted by panny View Post
I am getting Salv (except on that Mag attempt because I assumed I wouldn't need it).
Ya there were a few attempts where it was rocky on threat even well after the last Channeler was down and the raid moved to Mag (no crits, lots of miss/dodge/parry) and I guess 1 Channeler worth of threat wasn't enough (misdirect will be useful here). No Salv would also help explain it.

Originally Posted by Shadow4089 View Post
here is a quick question. Shammies can use 2H weapons obv if they spec it, but how useful it is compared to duel weapons? With WF proc better with slow weapons and stuff, whats the vs. between the two or is it just more of a leveling up spec?
DW for PvE dps, 2h for PvP and playing around. I'm leveling a Shaman alt, and quite enjoyed the move from 2h to DW, stuff just dies so much quicker. Flurry uptime seems better (though I could be imagining it) and WF procs more consistently. 2h was way to bursty, like 2 shotting one mob then slogging at the next for 45 seconds. DW is also bursty, but not quite as much.
#941SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by seminarca View Post
Ya there were a few attempts where it was rocky on threat even well after the last Channeler was down and the raid moved to Mag (no crits, lots of miss/dodge/parry) and I guess 1 Channeler worth of threat wasn't enough (misdirect will be useful here). No Salv would also help explain it.
I think you got a Misdirect anyway? Or was that during the next go? I vaguely remember calling for it.

Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
Salv. Always. If you can only get 1 pally buff it should be salv, on any fight where threat matters anyway which is just about all of them. If you're getting salv and still having consistent aggro trouble you'll probably need to look at what your tanks are doing(or not doing).
The channelers are really the only hard part of the fight (not including getting five people to click cubes), and since the first channeler tank usually just burns all his taunts and all the other channerler/mag tanks have lots of time to build threat, I didn't think threat would've been an issue as I really didn't expect to get a ~10k threat spike in 2 seconds. Anyway, bosses aren't that big a problem, it's trash/adds that's the biggest issue.
#942SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3seminarca
Originally Posted by panny View Post
I think you got a Misdirect anyway? Or was that during the next go? I vaguely remember calling for it.
That was on subsequent attempts.
#943SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
T.K.
At Mag i have no agro issue at all. My gear is not that great, but we got 2 bears tanking first adds, so i just pop Heroism as soon as they hit em and i can go all out from that.

My legs enchant is already bought and into my bag. I really don't like those legs, so i didn't want to use the enchant on them, cause is aways was like "Today i get x legs" and kept like that for 10 days by now...meh, think i should enchant it anyway. Was hoping for a Skulker or even my T4 legs anyway...

I already have the T4 head slot into my bag, just waiting to change it once i get another set part.

About the nuke, i aways look for mob back to nuke and try to keep aways at range the fastest i can. Maybe it was just the clicking duty at that time...but i can't understand why a so low DPS on Gruul...i do the shock rotation everytime, SS and so on...dunno why is that.

So u guys think my off-hand is eating that much procs and that's why my dps is so low?

Forgot the VR arcane balls. I said to my Raid leader i was going to do that move waving and he said i wouldn't be able to avoid all them and could kill all melees, so he obliged me to stay absorving all the pouncings.

Last edited by T.K. : 07/31/07 at 4:03 AM. Reason: VR balls O.o
#944SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bai
Greetings.

Finally got around to setting up my EJ profile tonight, so I only thought it proper to finally poke my head up from behind the fence and greet all my fellow Shamans-in-Arms. =)

I have been reading the boards for some time now, and have been very interested in the math and formulas everyone has been bringing to the table in helping to understand our wonky-style of DPS.
As some (to most) have been helpful, to the ideas and clearifications that I myself have come to the realizations of now; I am thankful. Keep doing the hard stuff so I can just lead my raids, and throw my farm animals at bosses.

Mushy stuff aside - I bring myself in light to the Shaman discussions to do my best to help further the understanding, and growth of our class. Do what you will with me. *bows*
And on that note: I apologize in advance for my trinkets being total suck. There are probably 4 DSTs on Lothar as a whole, and Heroics are a thing of the past which has me snuffed out shy 3 Badges for the Brooch. (Soon my darling...soon!)

note: All you leather Shamans make me giggle. ^_^*

ps: WTB Blizzard fixing Epic Gems showing up in the armory. /sigh

---

Now, to acctually be on topic. I pose this question that I may not have understood if it was discussed in earlier posts.
But it is something that I feel kind of goes against normal melee fuction.

Slower Offhand than Mainhand? ei; Dragonstike MH - Syphon of the Ninnies OH?
(Mainly; How does this effect Windfury? Swing Timers? Flurry?)
#945SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3PaPa
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Having the Runic OH with a 2.7 MH is going to mess up your DPS a little bit regardless since its going to inevitably eat some WF cooldowns.
I'm currently gearing up for Kara and this has caused me a certain amount of consternation. Getting the arena points together for the Gladiator's axe will take me some weeks, so I've started gathering mats for a Runic Hammer in the meantime after reading the OP of this thread where it states that this is the second best OH outside of BT.

However, I'm currently using the Drakefist Hammer in my main hand, and I'm curious to know whether or not I'll get a higher overall DPS out of using one of the blue 71.7 dps heroic/battleground OHs than a Runic Hammer. Will the slower speed compensate for the 10 less dps on the weapon and the loss of AP?

I don't really want to spend any more time or gold on something that could turn out to hurt my DPS. :/
#946SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I was using Dragonmaw and Runic hammer up until i got netherbane off Al'ar, so I wouldnt worry to much about using it.
#947SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
@bai - Just out of curiosity, why did you put 2 points in convection instead of imp ankh?

@TK - There's a baddass leather feral druid legs that drops from the final boss of heroic mana tombs. If you're farming for your WF totem you might as well go for it. I keep trying to justify taking them off (my only leather piece), but I probably won't replace them till T6.
#948SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Myrhar
i posted a comment about the wrath darkmoon card then found oodles of information more than i had thought of. My biggest problem with it is that you have to not crit in order to crit....what class/spec/living being wants that? now if only we could somehow fuse the crusade card and the wrath card so there was one card that increased crit rating with each crit, stacking x amount of times over x seconds and crits renew the effect and spell and melee crit is effected individually. it would scream enh shammy. oh to dream....
on a side note thanks to all of you for the excellent work of pulling all this together. always nice to know others actually think about how they play and how to play better after playing with so many noob filled pugs.

Last edited by Myrhar : 07/31/07 at 2:52 PM. Reason: edited to not be redundant
#949SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ketrew
PvP for Enhancement Shaman

*EDIT* I've moved this to the PVP thread

I'm just starting to use my Shaman for an arena team and some of my team mates are asking me to use a two handed weapon. I'd love some feedback on Two handers Vs. Duel Wield when its comes to pvp.

Tenion
Shaman - Silver Hand

Last edited by Ketrew : 07/31/07 at 5:55 PM.
#950SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Two handers are good for bursting down people with healers. I usually start out with a two hander, and then switch to DW when there are no more healers.
#1101SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aroma
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post

100 increase to AP used on OH WF:
100/14 = 7.14 (inherent AP scaling, NOT affected by OH penalty we now know)
I think you're wrong here. Only WF-AP does not get the OH penalty, the regular AP from gear still gets the OH penalty (and if i understood you correctly, thats the AP you use in this example).
So the actual AP bonus on your OH is only half the amount you were using.
Sorry if i misunderstood your post, might as well be the case.
#1102SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Well, if you only have windfury on a single one-handed weapon, it won't have a 20% proc rate either. The hidden cooldown will still render one swing after every WF proc unable to proc windfury, which will give you a 16.6% proc rate.

Mainhand Proc Rates: 2.6/2.6 WF/WF vs 2.6/whatever WF/FT:

Assume permanent flurry and no other haste buffs, so those Merciless Gladiator's Lolarenaweapons drop to 2.0 speed.


WF/WF: If each hand has a 36% proc rate, each hand will proc WF every 2.77 eligible swings. Figure in 1 mainhand swing locked out from a mainhand proc, and 1-2 mainhand swings locked out from an offhand proc, and you have your mainhand proccing windfury once every 4.77-5.77 swings.

WF/FT: WF procs every 5 eligible swings, and you lose 1 swing per proc to lockout. WF procs every 6 swings.


Theoretically, enchanting WF on a slow offhand should actually increase your mainhand proc rate, although anyone who can prove my math is bad is welcome to do so.
#1103SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rizelu
There are lots of pages here and lots of discussing going on so...
What are the values I should put into pawn? and what is intellect / stamina / spirit in this all?

Person #1: 2500HP
Person #2: 2800HP
Both get hit for 40-80 (average) and 90-120(crit)
Rest of the stats is all the same.

Won't the person with the most HP be able to deal more dps as he will most likely stand longer?

Intellect and spirit seem useless damage-wise unless you count in the amount of heals you can squeeze in, the longer you stand... the more damage you are able to produce.

If I am dead, I can't do dps .. simple lol.
#1104SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujin
I think you are right in that WF/WF will be more procs of windfury in a given amount of time compared to single WF, but you are sill stealing MH procs every once in a while and lowering the average damage of WF by a lot, so its hard to judge without detailed theorycrafting if you can make up the lost damage by less WF procs with FT on offhand if you are increasing the average damage done by WF and adding in the damage done by the FT proc on your offhand.
#1105SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aroma
Originally Posted by Rizelu View Post
There are lots of pages here and lots of discussing going on so...
What are the values I should put into pawn? and what is intellect / stamina / spirit in this all?

Person #1: 2500HP
Person #2: 2800HP
Both get hit for 40-80 (average) and 90-120(crit)
Rest of the stats is all the same.

Won't the person with the most HP be able to deal more dps as he will most likely stand longer?

Intellect and spirit seem useless damage-wise unless you count in the amount of heals you can squeeze in, the longer you stand... the more damage you are able to produce.

If I am dead, I can't do dps .. simple lol.
In a fight where you get constant damage end don't get healed you might be right.
Stamina is a stat to consider when you're way below 10k hp fully buffed, but after that point it just isn't important anymore. Bosses will onehit you regardless of your HP, and anything else has to be healed anyway.
Your manapool works simmilarly. All you need is a manapool that is sufficient to keep up constant shocking and also big enough so that your manaregen with SR is never wasted. Beyond that point you don't have to care abaout intellect anymore.
Spirit as a stat is worthless for every shaman, if you need manaregen get items with mp5, but as an enhancement shaman you should always be able to reg enough mana with SR alone.
#1106SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• Disquette
I don't claim to be the experts you guys are, but I know when something isn't thorough enough to come to a solid conclusion. The setups really need to be modeled with everything in mind to gain a better understanding of how they compare.
Let's go through point by point, shall we?

-How WF is effected by both avoidance and mitigation from armor assuming level 73 MoB with 5 Sunders

I assume a 23% damage reduction. That is more than fair to FT, considering most people are claiming an average of 20% damage reduction after sunders. I included dodges, so there goes the the avoidance issue.

-Flametongue ignoring armor

My sim does indeed use melee mitigation through armor, and allows flametongue not to be affected by armor.

-Flametongue with Nature's Guidance +3% spell hit

I modeled this with ZERO resists. I essentially gave natures guidance a 16% spell hit boost. If that's not more than fair to flame tongue, I don't know what is.

-Flametongue doesn't proc when you miss, possibly leading to hit rating gaining some importance in a WF/FT set up? I don't know

And guess what - the sim doesn't proc FT when the attack is avoided or missed. Pretty neat, eh? ;-)

-Flametongue benefits from any fire debuffs stacked on the MoB

Fair point, but I think the nature's guidance part more than covers this. However, to be complete, I just looked at the FT number, divided by 1.13 (16% resists, but 13% after natures guidance), multiplied by 109% (imp scorch), then multiplied by 110% (Curse of elements), then multiplied by 105% (crit rate), and the difference comes out to be 7dps. So, Those two numbers should be closer by 7dps due to resistances, nature's guidance, curse of elements.

-Flametongue always scales well with haste whereas too much can negatively effect WF

Another good point. I have no answer to this other than to say, it's a corner case most of the time, and the simulation I used took it into account. It'd be different for a person with lots of passive haste or item-based haste procs. My model never had the OH (with WF) dropping below 1.5 speed.

-Stormstrike DPS, higher with WF/WF Slow/Slow, but by how much?

The model shows takes this into account too. I use a 10.5 second delay between stormstrikes due to an assumed lag.

-Could using WF/FT versus WF/WF possibly land a net increase in MH WF procs, which could help scew the results in favor of FT? (I know you get a net loss in WF proc rate, but would you gain more overall MH procs that if the OH was "stealing" some of those procs, resulting in a bit more MH WF dps?)

This is all covered in the simulation, and was part of the testing. Here's the breakdown since you're interested:
WF Dps Slow/Fast: 124 WF MH Seconds per Proc: 7.81
WF Dps Slow/Slow: 128 WF MH Seconds per Proc: 8.06 (if you caught an early revision of this, i copy/pasted the wrong numbers from excel, hence the stealth edit)
So, even though the OH was stealing some, the increased flurry uptime, and the 20% to 36% jump was enough so that you had *more* MH WF in the same time period when OH'ing a WF weapon.

================

So, does this cover most of the concerns to the point where you consider it to be closer to reality than you originally thought?

Last edited by Disquette : 08/05/07 at 5:48 PM.
#1107SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by aroma View Post
I think you're wrong here. Only WF-AP does not get the OH penalty, the regular AP from gear still gets the OH penalty (and if i understood you correctly, thats the AP you use in this example).
So the actual AP bonus on your OH is only half the amount you were using.
Sorry if i misunderstood your post, might as well be the case.
Aroma, you are absolutely correct. I'm going to leave up my original post, but edit it at the end to correct my (rather colossal!) mistake. Luckily, this mistake is not in my simulator, so it doesn't affect the tests that I did earlier.
#1108SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aroma
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Luckily, this mistake is not in my simulator, so it doesn't affect the tests that I did earlier.
That's good to hear, because im rather fond of WF and would be almost sad if i had to switch to a different enchantment for maximum damage
#1109SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rescorla
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post

From AP scaling alone, you have 3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 22.33 dmg/proc increase for WF. Put another way, for AP scaling only, you break even in damage between the two when you get more than 6 OH swings per 1 OH WF proc.
Assuming those values above are correct, when the denominators are equalized the values are pretty close. The variable that needs to be determined is how many weapon swings are required to generate a proc. That number will vary based on OH weapon speed, haste, etc. Take that number and multiply it by 3.74, and then compare it to 22.33. For example, if it takes 6 autoattack swings to generate an OH WF proc, then you end up with FT having a value of 22.44 (6 * 3.74) compared to 22.33 for WF.
#1110SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Rescorla View Post
Assuming those values above are correct, when the denominators are equalized the values are pretty close. The variable that needs to be determined is how many weapon swings are required to generate a proc. That number will vary based on OH weapon speed, haste, etc. Take that number and multiply it by 3.74, and then compare it to 22.33. For example, if it takes 6 autoattack swings to generate an OH WF proc, then you end up with FT having a value of 22.44 (6 * 3.74) compared to 22.33 for WF.
Yes, "Assuming those values above are correct" :-( Unfortunately I made a large mistake in it (see my post above). However, I don't think those numbers are anywhere near the be all / end all of the debate though, as weapon damage, crit scaling, flurry scaling, etc, are all in favor of windfury.

However, if you had your current stats, but had 10 000 AP instead of your current AP, FT would almost definitely win out.

I really wish I had my updated sim available though, because I don't remember what I changed in it between 2 months ago and today. I know the today version is more correct, but crushing my laptop with a truck prevents me from seeing how much of a difference it makes.
#1111SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aroma
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
====================================
IMPORTANT EDIT:
3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 11.16 dmg/proc increase for WF when you give a flat 100 AP bonus to each set up.
====================================
One more thing I noticed:
the AP bonus for the OH WF procc gives an increase of 11.16 DPS, not damage itself, so for a 2.6 OH you would actually get 29.016 extra damage per procc, which is most likely way ahead of the increase FT gets from the same amount of AP.
#1112SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rescorla
I just saw your edited values:

3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 11.16 dmg/proc increase for WF when you give a flat 100 AP bonus to each set up.
Assuming 6 autoattack swings required to generate an OH WF proc, equalizing the denominators results in FT adding 22.44 damage per 100 AP and WF5 only adding 11.16 (your corrected value). That is a fairly substantial differenct isn't it? At first glance it would seem to indicate that FT7 is clearly the way to go. Like you said however, weapon damage, crit scaling, flurry scaling, etc may allow WF to close the gap.
#1113SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by aroma View Post
One more thing I noticed:
the AP bonus for the OH WF procc gives an increase of 11.16 DPS, not damage itself, so for a 2.6 OH you would actually get 29.016 extra damage per procc, which is most likely way ahead of the increase FT gets from the same amount of AP.
hah, aroma, you should be doing this instead of me!

This is one reason I wrote my sim - it's easy for me to get confused when I'm not building everything and checking it against in-game values. I make careless mistakes sometimes when I don't have a reference like in-game-testing upon which I can verify and correct.
#1114SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aroma
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
hah, aroma, you should be doing this instead of me!
No way, all I can do is some nitpicking, I better leave the brilliant theorycrafting to the pros.
#1115SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aramund
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
And the point that I was making is that there is so much stuff that happens to counteract the benefits of FT on the offhand that WF/WF is probably still (significant) benefits to sticking with it.

As for the AP bonses and its scaling, consider the following:

100 increase to AP used on OH FT:
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.09 = 2.81 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.81 * 1.1 = 3.09 (Curse of elements)
3.09 * 1.05 = 3.25 (5% spell crit rate)
3.25 * 1.15 = 3.74 (elemental weapons)

100 increase to AP used on OH WF:
100/14 = 7.14 (inherent AP scaling, NOT affected by OH penalty we now know)
7.14 * 1.1 = 7.85 (weapon mastery)
7.84 * 1.4 = 11 (elemental weapons)
11 * 1.35 = 14.85 (good crit rate)
14.85 * 80% = 11.88 (20% armor reduction)
11.88 * 2 = 23.76 (2 WF attacks per proc)
23.76 * 94% = 22.33 (6% of WF will be dodged)

In neither case have I factored in white hits/dodges, because neither of these can proc when the base attack doesn't land.

So...

From AP scaling alone, you have 3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 22.33 dmg/proc increase for WF. Put another way, for AP scaling only, you break even in damage between the two when you get more than 6 OH swings per 1 OH WF proc.

Now add in crit scaling, base weapon damage scaling as you get gear, increased flurry uptime, and (this is minimal) increased UR uptime, and WF still looks more attractive to me. Maybe I've missed something significant (such as main hand extra procs due to OH not eating any), but I think Slow/Slow will rule onwards.

I'd love to be proven wrong in RL testing, however, because high dps fast offhands are (so far) much easier to obtain than slow ones.

====================================
IMPORTANT EDIT: Thanks to aroma for catching this - I was wrong in that the AP bonus from gear does indeed get halved by the OH penalty. This then becomes much more in favor of FT than it originally was. The actual comparison should be:

3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 11.16 dmg/proc increase for WF when you give a flat 100 AP bonus to each set up.
====================================
This, I think, is starting to get much closer to an accurate model. However, I have to ask if this takes into account the 100% proc chance on hit of FT versus 15-18% proc chance on hit (average) of WF? And there is still the question of lost DPS from Slow/Fast when it comes to Stormstrike, and the potential gain in DPS from more MH WF procs from OH FT.

Also, the (minimal) loss of Flurry and UR up time from losing the extra attacks that WF provides would almost certainly be more than made up for by the increased number of crits / unit of time being landed by the now (much) faster OH weapon.
#1116SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aramund
Forgive me if I missed of those items in your simulation. As I stated in my first post I don't claim to be an expert and its entirely possible I didn't fully understand the original model enough to notice some of those variables being factored in. I'm just trying to do my part to help.
#1117SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
No time yet to put the FT/FB changes into my code, just some ideas...
1.) UR uptime isn't affected much at all, we're 95% uptime anyway
2.) Flurry uptime is a slightly more complicated case but not that much different
expected wf proc time while flurried is: wspeedflurry/0.2 (for mh only), for a 2.6 weapon this is 10s, so the wf cd percentage is actually 1- (10/13), which is 23%.
so we actually can assume that 2*(1-(1-0.2)^((10/13)*3)) = 0.80 swings are expected to be added to our flurry uptime calculation, for DW the value for two 2.6s weapons would be: 1.16
for 35% crit the difference in uptime is: 85% vs. 87%
3.) Stormstrike as a haste factor is a difference of maybe 10% between a fast weapon and a slow weapon

Anyway I can say more about this, as soon as I've modelled it into my code.
#1118SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Does shadow priests Misery debuff (5% spell damage while dots are ticking) also effect FT? If so another 1.05 multiplier is needed.
#1119SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3bloodwitch
crusader is not better than potency in any way shape or form at level 70. Crusader is equivalent to a +15str permachant in terms of autoattacks. unlike a warrior, we cannot artificially pump up the proc rate by spamming instant attacks since we only have the one, and its on a cooldown. in all the testing and parsing i did (both real combat, and blasted lands servants), with ss spamming and WF buffs up, crusader only barely managed to match the constant +20str when it got ungodly proc strings in a row, and that happened only very rarely.

potency > crusader.
#1120SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Sorry, but you're wrong on that one. The calculations for potency vs crusader were figured out ages ago. You're not suddenly discovering something we didn't know.
#1121SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
====================================
IMPORTANT EDIT: Thanks to aroma for catching this - I was wrong in that the AP bonus from gear does indeed get halved by the OH penalty. This then becomes much more in favor of FT than it originally was. The actual comparison should be:

3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 11.16 dmg/proc increase for WF when you give a flat 100 AP bonus to each set up.
====================================
So as aroma said, it's 11.16 dps not dmg per proc.
Assuming optimal (unrealistic) 20% proc rate, that's 11.16/5 = 2.226dps added over time.
FT is 3.74 dmg * 1.05 (shadow priest misery) giving 3.927 dmg per swing.

Assuming a fast offhand of 1.4spd (I actually never looked at fast OHs, do they go faster than this? if so FT is better..) that's 3.927dmg every 1.4sec or 2.805 dps.

FT seems to scale significantly better then (at the 35% crit rate)?

Any other factors that have yet to be included?

EDIT: Also -target armor items would be useless with FT, while WF would scale nicely from them.

Last edited by Malevolencia : 08/05/07 at 10:11 PM.
#1122SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Freyalis
crusader is not better than potency in any way shape or form at level 70. Crusader is equivalent to a +15str permachant in terms of autoattacks. unlike a warrior, we cannot artificially pump up the proc rate by spamming instant attacks since we only have the one, and its on a cooldown. in all the testing and parsing i did (both real combat, and blasted lands servants), with ss spamming and WF buffs up, crusader only barely managed to match the constant +20str when it got ungodly proc strings in a row, and that happened only very rarely.

potency > crusader.
This holds true purely for white attacks untalented only. After taking into accounts extra attacks from Stormstrike and Windfury Attacks and also the semi constant 30% speed increase from flurry you come a lot closer to double the expected number of procs. Hence its a lot closer to +30 STR than +15 which is alot better than potency.

Like Malan said the math has been worked out before and you should be able to find it easily with a search.
#1123SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yavon
Currently using a Dragonstrike in MH working on Dragonspine. I want go for a haste type of build. Would I need to increase hit rating to max (24.5 I think) to max my dps output. Or does current scale for str crit hit rating hold true for shamans that want to value haste as well?
#1124SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
full stack of improved scorch debuff gives 15% bonus :-)
And BTW for OH WF it's 11.16*speed dmg/proc
#1125SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Ujin View Post
I think you are right in that WF/WF will be more procs of windfury in a given amount of time compared to single WF, but you are sill stealing MH procs every once in a while and lowering the average damage of WF by a lot, so its hard to judge without detailed theorycrafting if you can make up the lost damage by less WF procs with FT on offhand if you are increasing the average damage done by WF and adding in the damage done by the FT proc on your offhand.
What I wrote out above covers mainhand windfury only, and should account the offhand "stealing" mainhand procs.

I'm not just saying you should get a windfury proc every 4.77-5.77 mainhand swings; I'm saying you should get a mainhand windfury proc every 4.77-5.77 mainhand swings. (You'll also get offhand procs at about the same rate, but that's not what I'm interested in.)

To put it another way, you will see more than twice as many total WF procs using slow/slow WF/WF compared to WF/FT, and half of those procs will be mainhand.
#1351SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
That first post is beautiful, Malan. I haven't looked at the first page of this thread since it was a mere child at 12 pages long or so. I'm very impressed with what you've done with it.

Just a public "thank you"
Bah, I just steal all the info you guys write and reword it

I'd like to get some more graphics up like the one I made to illustrate the windfury cooldown lockout for a fast OH with slow MH. Any thoughts on what concepts would be good to illustrate?
#1352SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Small summary on my addons.
WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
USE /wf3sec


MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
USE - /mb


MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
USE - /mf


WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.
USE - /wftotem
#1353SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kagu
Amazing thread you guys have here with a lot of interesting theories.

I've been reading through many of these pages but I'd like to know your all opinions on whether the 4 piece t5 is worth getting (no access to chest just yet) by using the legs and shoulders. I myself find the shoulders to be a terrible piece and the legs to be mediocre with a lot of the item level used on stats.

Having Vashj finally drop a shaman token after much saving of dkp I have been able to obtain the helm and I just wondered how you guys would weigh the 5% flurry speed against the possible 1 to 2% crit and 30 or 40 ap from the other possible items I have available to me.
#1354SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Kagu View Post
Amazing thread you guys have here with a lot of interesting theories.

I've been reading through many of these pages but I'd like to know your all opinions on whether the 4 piece t5 is worth getting (no access to chest just yet) by using the legs and shoulders. I myself find the shoulders to be a terrible piece and the legs to be mediocre with a lot of the item level used on stats.

Having Vashj finally drop a shaman token after much saving of dkp I have been able to obtain the helm and I just wondered how you guys would weigh the 5% flurry speed against the possible 1 to 2% crit and 30 or 40 ap from the other possible items I have available to me.
I am going for chest, but t5 shoulders sux - try to get t5 hands.
#1355SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
I did a bunch of my own speculation on the value of -armor and came to a few conclusions.

I came to the conclusion that 1 point of item budget will buy approximately 7 -armor.
Just FYI this is the same conclusion I came to. The trash neck from BT with -175 armor seems to be valued the same as if ithad been +25 rating points.

As far as the value of this stat, it varies from boss to boss which is an annoying answer but it is true. From a distance though it is easy to see how this is a good stat for us as it directly helps roughly 90% of our damage, which cannot be said for anything else except for AP/Str.
#1356SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Wichtel View Post
I got an idear while reading the discussion about the new WF vs GoA. You had a debate up there about FT vs WF on our Offhand and FT might be as good up to a point. But what about the FT-Totem will it scale with Spelldamge too? If thats the case it could be better to put down FT and GoA instead of WF.
No.

The only time you should even consider putting FT-totem down is if you have to drop Tranquil Air. Given proper raid buffs (specifically blessing of salv) that should never happen. WF totem is a 20% chance for an extra attack with more AP, flametounge will probably never be able to compete with that for damage due to WF's scaling nature.
#1357SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wichtel
I do know that it sucks right now. But i was talking about FT with the new mental quickness and failed to mention that. We will have up to 700 spell damage and if FT-Totem scales with it i think GoA + FT could be better than wf alone.
#1358SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Flametongue Totem does not scale with spell damage. If it did, yah it'd probably be pretty good. But it doesn't.
#1359SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nikiyaki
Hey, I've been a reader of this thread since it began and have been shifting my gear to match the conclusions drawn by data as it becomes available, usually with very positive results. I feel my dps has been steadily increasing over time as I acquire and change gear and so I was happy with this.

However I have some questions I'd like to ask now and I think after browsing they haven't been asked so I apologize if they have.

My first question is, when I first start attacking a mob, for the first 30-60 seconds my dps is very good, and very high, but after that point, even though I don't actually do anything different, it starts to sort of dwindle, sometimes down by as much as 200 on my meter(!) Is this the effect of my OH starting to steal WFs? (I have a 2.6 offhand) I do have the Invigorate set bonus, should I use the proc every now and then to attempt to reset the WFs back to my main hand? Or, is this decline simply natural for our dps in some way? I generally try to pop trinkets/minor cooldowns early so I can use them as many times as possible during a battle.

Secondly, is there anything really particularly good for ekeing out the most dps possible? I use a WF cooldown mod to cast SS at the best time, rotate ES and FS, use haste potions, and pop my trinkets with my shamanistic rage. Does anyone know if mana potting if I start to have mana troubles to continue shocking be more dps than the haste potion? I have the suspicion it would but, I don't really want to start chugging potions to test it out, and testing during raids is too irregular. So I'm curious if anyone has any personal experience with that.

On the same note is it better to drink a wisdom elixir for the mana regen over a fortitude elixir for the health? 1920 mana over a 10min fight or, roughly 4-6 more shocks. I use all other buffs I can think of (agility elixir or flask/20str food/sometimes scrolls).

Are there any other little tricks like that you can use to squeeze out the last drop of damage from your shaman? I've been playing a shaman for nearly two years now but an enhance one for only about 5 months - I'm sure there's little things I've missed picking up.


I'm really, really desperate to increase my damage, it's generally around 800-900 dps (on average, on most fights) at the moment with my set-up (On Armory here) and I need to increase that at least 100 I think to be a consistent raider for my guild. (Which is in BT/Hyjal)
#1360SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Nikiyaki View Post
Hey, I've been a reader of this thread since it began and have been shifting my gear to match the conclusions drawn by data as it becomes available, usually with very positive results. I feel my dps has been steadily increasing over time as I acquire and change gear and so I was happy with this.

However I have some questions I'd like to ask now and I think after browsing they haven't been asked so I apologize if they have.

My first question is, when I first start attacking a mob, for the first 30-60 seconds my dps is very good, and very high, but after that point, even though I don't actually do anything different, it starts to sort of dwindle, sometimes down by as much as 200 on my meter(!) Is this the effect of my OH starting to steal WFs? (I have a 2.6 offhand) I do have the Invigorate set bonus, should I use the proc every now and then to attempt to reset the WFs back to my main hand? Or, is this decline simply natural for our dps in some way? I generally try to pop trinkets/minor cooldowns early so I can use them as many times as possible during a battle.

Secondly, is there anything really particularly good for ekeing out the most dps possible? I use a WF cooldown mod to cast SS at the best time, rotate ES and FS, use haste potions, and pop my trinkets with my shamanistic rage. Does anyone know if mana potting if I start to have mana troubles to continue shocking be more dps than the haste potion? I have the suspicion it would but, I don't really want to start chugging potions to test it out, and testing during raids is too irregular. So I'm curious if anyone has any personal experience with that.

On the same note is it better to drink a wisdom elixir for the mana regen over a fortitude elixir for the health? 1920 mana over a 10min fight or, roughly 4-6 more shocks. I use all other buffs I can think of (agility elixir or flask/20str food/sometimes scrolls).

Are there any other little tricks like that you can use to squeeze out the last drop of damage from your shaman? I've been playing a shaman for nearly two years now but an enhance one for only about 5 months - I'm sure there's little things I've missed picking up.


I'm really, really desperate to increase my damage, it's generally around 800-900 dps (on average, on most fights) at the moment with my set-up (On Armory here) and I need to increase that at least 100 I think to be a consistent raider for my guild. (Which is in BT/Hyjal)
I don't use trinkets with rage anymore. The amount of buffed AP I have on raids more than fills up my mana bar without the added 30 mana per hit with brooch up. Instead I use them as early as possible to squeeze in another use at the end. You are also much better off using relentless assault than you are using any other pot combination. Consider picking up mental quickness and dropping healing focus, it helps a bit.

Otherwise, um.. You have a ton of hit rating. Read the formula and see if any of your banked gear is superior to your stuff with a ton of hit rating (kara ring/moroes cloak for example).
#1361SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
Hedin,

I hate to be overly picky about things, but is there any way (perhaps by editing of lua files) I could change the text on the timer bars? I currently use WFCooldown which is a small, unobtrusive yellow bar with just "wf" in the middle of it as opposed to "WF 3 sec cooldown" on yours. Also concerning the melee stats window, is it possible to just show weapon speed? I think that may have been asked before but I'm not sure.

I'd like to use the various facets of your addon but I'm kind of particular about my UI =/
#1362SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kreltok
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Flametongue Totem does not scale with spell damage. If it did, yah it'd probably be pretty good. But it doesn't.

If I'm not mistaken, FT imbue and totem both scale with + damage, but with FT totem its the +damage of the person with the buff on their weapon.

So if you drop FT totem, sure you will get your +dmg bonuses but rogues/warriors/melee dps in your group i highly doubt will have any + spell damage gear on and would not recieve it. And I doubt you will have any melee locks/mages/spriests/ele shamans.
#1363SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Capital
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
Small summary on my addons.
WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
USE /wf3sec

MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
USE - /mb

MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
USE - /mf

WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.
USE - /wftotem
Not the best place to be asking this, but I once disabled this mod, using the command, and now I can't turn it back on. I've tried deleting the mod and the related wf3sec.lua files in my WTF folder, then put the mod back in. It's enabled and everything but it wont apear or respond to the /wf3sec command. It's not giving lua errors either, might just my game being funny.
#1364SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sharmania
Hello,
I've been reading this thread for quite a while now, been a great help to me!
But i've been wondering something for some time, is the Dragonstrike really that good?I do not have acces to Syphon, but i can get a Dragonstrike, if i manage to raise Blacksmithing
Now, i am an orc, so i'm curious, is the Wicked Edge not better?Also how good is Dragonstrike in comparsion to Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver(as an orc) ?

Appreciate any answers!
#1365SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
Originally Posted by Capital View Post
Not the best place to be asking this, but I once disabled this mod, using the command, and now I can't turn it back on. I've tried deleting the mod and the related wf3sec.lua files in my WTF folder, then put the mod back in. It's enabled and everything but it wont apear or respond to the /wf3sec command. It's not giving lua errors either, might just my game being funny.
I looked in the lua file and saw where to edit the bar text. Is there a way to drag the bar or are there only x/y coords?
#1366SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Myul
I want to take up the discussion about windfury versus flametongue for the offhand again.

At first, some improvements of Disquette's numbers
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
100 increase to AP used on OH FT:
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.09 = 2.81 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.81 * 1.1 = 3.09 (Curse of elements)
3.09 * 1.05 = 3.25 (5% spell crit rate)
3.25 * 1.15 = 3.74 (elemental weapons)
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.15 = 2.967 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.967 * 1.13 = 3.35 (improved Curse of elements ->Malediction talent)
3.35 * 1.05 = 3.52 (Shadowpriest's Misery)
3.52 * 1.05 = 3.70 (5% spell crit rate)
3.70 * 1.15 = 4.25 (elemental weapons)

But i really miss a point, the partial resists. If i remember correctly, flametongue is a non-binary spell and that's why it can be partially resisted and that should lower the damage remarkable (especially on higher level differences), because the -resistances from curse of elements seems not to work for the second roll.
I'm sorry i can't find exactly numbers, but asking your warlocks spamming shadowbolts on lvl 72-73 mobs should confirm this, despite there is allways a curse up.

--

Ok, let's ignore the partial resistsfor the moment. What's about the offhand weapon speed?

Flametongue damage = (35 * weaponspeed + spellpower / 10) (from WoW Wiki

Using 2500 AP = 750 spelldamage, it's

(1.4 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Shiv: 126.1 dps raidbuffed
(1.5 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Hacker: 120.4 dps raidbuffed
(1.8 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Shanker: 109.1 dps raidbuffed
(2.6 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver: 90.7 dps raidbuffed

With higher AP (=spelldamage), faster weapon will even scale better with flametongue.

But please remember, that you have to simulate your flurry and unleashed rage uptime with your weapon combination and use all this numbers for an accurate over all dps.

Last edited by Myul : 08/14/07 at 12:45 AM.
#1367SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
That's a decent amount of dps, but I think the main advantage of WF on the offhand is to increase your procrate for both hands to 36%. I can't wait for 2.3!!
#1368SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Yesss!!!
Kael down, now I have 4/5 t5!!!
#1369SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Tataka
Specialization Flaw?

Forgive me if I missed this aspect, as there was a lot to read and I could have possibly skipped over it, but in checking out a good majority of the posters specs I saw that all of them went 20 points into Restoration in order to get that 3% increase chance to hit.

Now, assuming you have plenty of +hit gear wouldn't it be more viable to go with a spec that was Elemental/Enhancement rather than Enhancement/Resto ?

A spec that included the 4 Elemental talents ( Convection / Concussion / Elemental Focus / Reverberation) could theoretically put out more DPS as long as you don't have to be spot healing in 10-25 man raids. In the end it allows you to shock whenever it is offcooldown and have those shocks come 1 second faster every hit. Add that up over a long period of time and thats a lot of extra shocks / extra damage. In a ten minute Vashj fight, assuming you are fighting the entire duration (which is unlikely) you would get roughly 15 extra shocks in. Assuming they hit for around 700 - 1400 dmg each (high end on a crit) thats 10,500 dmg you weren't doing right there on the low end.

I currently use a 16/45/0 spec and have no trouble going OOM and am able to put out a good deal of DPS while still having relatively 'bad' gear.

I could possibly be overlooking something very important (and I'm going to assume that I am and would like to be corrected/enlightened) but maybe I'm just too tired to put my finger on it at the moment. Let me know whether you agree or not. My enhancement shaman is still a baby level 70 but I am very interested in getting him as geared as my main.

Last edited by Tataka : 08/14/07 at 10:35 AM.
#1370SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
As has been mentioned before, there are other less tangible benefits to putting points into the resto tree. If all you're concerned about is your personal DPS, than yes, by all means spec into Elemental. The resto tree offers a number of talent points that are beneficial to your raid. Increased totem area of effect, cheaper totems (so that you can continue to DPS and drop totems), improved Ankh (can't drop totems if you're dead!), and a chance at uninteruptable heals (spam heal yourself to stay alive when you pull aggro).
#1371SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Varag
Is the Itemization - Gems list on the main page still the best option for each socket?

Based on stat weighting in lootzor, and the formulas on the main page, it would seem to suggest that unless you have a strong need for the socket bonus, or desire to satisfy a metagem set of requirements, you'd likely want 8 Str gem over any other option.
#1372SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Yuma View Post
Is the Itemization - Gems list on the main page still the best option for each socket?

Based on stat weighting in lootzor, and the formulas on the main page, it would seem to suggest that unless you have a strong need for the socket bonus, or desire to satisfy a metagem set of requirements, you'd likely want 8 Str gem over any other option.
I think it comes down to personaly preference, but i have got the socket bonus on all my gear that has sockets available.

I guess i'm at the point where my damage isn't really an issue now, I provide the buffs now and put out competative damage (top 3-7) switching gems to all +str would not be of much benefit, as would dropping all hit items, I firmly believe that at this point with my level of gear hit is now close to being as important as other crit/ap/haste.

Miss rates on this weeks raids. (White damage) This is misses only (no dodges)
9% - Teron
7% & 8% - Gurtogg
9% - Azgalor
7% - Archimonde
10% - Najentus

Missing the WWS from the rest of clear for some reason.

Another thing which is bothering me, the dodge rate of bosses, I was under the impression it was a flat 5% chance to be dodged, but i'm getting roughtly 7-10%.
#1373SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kombinat
I've finally gotten myself into a raiding guild, and Kara is tomorrow. What I'm wondering is this: Can I hope not to embarrass myself in a 10 man situation with my gear? What gear should I have in order to even go into kara?

If you look at my armory, please let me know if there's anything failing in my gear. I've done the best that I can, given what I've had to work with.

Malan:

This is my bible. Please, keep up the good work. Thanks very much.
#1374SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Kombinat View Post
I've finally gotten myself into a raiding guild, and Kara is tomorrow. What I'm wondering is this: Can I hope not to embarrass myself in a 10 man situation with my gear? What gear should I have in order to even go into kara?

If you look at my armory, please let me know if there's anything failing in my gear. I've done the best that I can, given what I've had to work with.

Malan:

This is my bible. Please, keep up the good work. Thanks very much.
You really should update your profile so it links to your armory, having to open the page then search, then switch server area to find someone who wants our help is kind of annoying.

I'll edit this when i've had a look.

EDIT: Your gear isn't that bad, its worse than mine was when I first got to 70 though, Have you done all the quest that give rewards? I don't recalll having many of those items and I didn't have any lvl 60 enhancement gear.

The netherstorm/smv chain quests have some nice rewards and the desolation set comes from 5 mans, midnight legs from heroic slave pens.

If your going to kara though, and the other people are geared better or have the leather/mail gear already in there, you can probably skip all the above and go straight for kara epics.

Last edited by Stigmata : 08/14/07 at 11:44 AM.
#1375SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Tataka View Post
I could possibly be overlooking something very important (and I'm going to assume that I am and would like to be corrected/enlightened) but maybe I'm just too tired to put my finger on it at the moment. Let me know whether you agree or not. My enhancement shaman is still a baby level 70 but I am very interested in getting him as geared as my main.
I ran with 19/42/0 for a while, but it's actually not as good as I had hoped. The high cost of shocks with relatively low damage returns ended up not being worth it. I can get more dps from going improved totems, mental quickness and then totem twisting WF/GoA than I do from an extra shock. Just to throw some numbers out, my WF hits against Vashj were around 700 and my crits were around 1400. So 1 WF crit does more damage than a shock, and I don't have to put 15 points into elemental to get it.

Long story short, resto talents + totem twisting gives a much higher personal and group dps than putting points into elemental does. I don't think that will change before the new talents come out. Decreasing the cost of shocks and giving us more spell damage will go a long way towards making the first 20 points of elemental much better.
#1376SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Durigen
Kombinat -

Your gear isn't that bad for starting Karazhan. Though you could really use to socket some +hit gems. Get your hit rating up alittle over 100, and then start focusing on crit. Otherwise your likely to be missing a good share of those possible critical hits.

Don't be afriad to wear leather! Prior to Karazhan, there is some great feral leather out there that will give you really nice additions beyond the mail armor you have (particularly a good lucky drop from the rare spawn dragon in Blade's Edge, near Ogri'la, Hematiphus or something like that).

Bet on your tank not being geared up either, if that's the case get KTM Threat Meter (if you don't already) and be very very careful of your threat. Until the tank get's some really nice gear your going to be a strong contender for pulling aggro.

Other than that, just enjoy. Karazhan is really much more about technical aspects of raid performance than gear. Keep your totems up, and your DPS really won't matter as much as you think (even with the WF totem nerf).
#1377SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I would suggest using the Lootzor link from the first post and setting the instances to "normal" which will show you a lot of Reputation, quest, and normal mode instance loot that you could work toward. Unfortunately for you, you picked the mail helm instead of the leather one from the quest, which would have been a lot better.
#1378SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Durigen View Post
Get your hit rating up alittle over 100, and then start focusing on crit. Otherwise your likely to be missing a good share of those possible critical hits.
While ignoring the hit gems statement, do you understand how the attack table works? Do you truly think that adding hit = adding crit?
#1379SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kombinat
Thanks very much for the feedback, It's most appreciated. (I've updated my profile here as well, so should the question come up again it won't waste more of other's time.)

This guild had cleared kara before, it's on farm for the most part. Last night they gave the decapitator to a pally tank, just so he could use the on use effect while pulling when solo.

Given the non-homogeneity of 10-man raiding I'd honestly prefer to be better geared, given that there's more than likely to be group members who gain little to no effect from my buffs. That said, I'd like to think that the buffs I do give would be more beneficial than the lack of synergy with one to two party members. I've got the DPS warriors and rogues fighting over who gets to group with me in gruul attempts already, I'm just a little concerned about the actual viability of my own DPS in a 10 man situation.

I picked the helm before I knew about lootzor or stat weighting. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but thanks for pointing me towards something that would have taken up less of all your time. I often feel terrified while posting on here, lest I be hit with an infraction for being a tool, had I followed the links this mightn't have been necessary.

(I run Omen right now, and I'm very careful not to pull aggro. Thanks for the heads up though.)
#1380SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Besides using omen, I'd recommend that the number one thing you do is stay alive.

You don't have the get out of jail free card that many other classes do (ice block, evasion, cloak of shadows, shield wall, bubble, etc). Resultantly, you need to pay attention to your environment so you don't die. Besides the gentle (or not so gentle) ribbing you'll get for dying a lot, there's a feeling of nastiness you can get if you're dead and the melee suddenly lose a couple hundred AP, extra hit procs, etc..

Concentrate on staying alive until you're comfortable with all the encounters. If they're clearing Kara already, you're not going to be dps-competitive. That doesn't mean not to try your best to dps, it just means that your contribution is going to be even more skewed than normal by your buffs as opposed to personal dps.
#1381SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Another thing which is bothering me, the dodge rate of bosses, I was under the impression it was a flat 5% chance to be dodged, but i'm getting roughtly 7-10%.
Sorry to quote myself, but any thoughts on the above?
#1382SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Stigmata I just checked a few of my WWS parses and I'm showing a 7% dodge on many fights as well. Seems to vary though, other parses are showing as low as 3%.
#1383SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Strange, on the 6 I checked all were above 5%
#1384SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I had a 3% dodge rate on Leotheras. I attribute that to blind men can't dodge.
#1385SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Igniter
I'm really torn between what pants to shoot for, I really like the -ac on azgalor's, bow stitch seems the best stat wise, but skyshatt has the set bonuses and such =\. I also don't like lootz0r, sue me. (since -ac is still pretty iffy)

Last edited by Igniter : 08/14/07 at 2:28 PM.
#1386SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I had a 3% dodge rate on Leotheras. I attribute that to blind men can't dodge.
Stupid question, but can mobs dodge while casting spells?
#1387SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
While ignoring the hit gems statement, do you understand how the attack table works? Do you truly think that adding hit = adding crit?
Just wondering if the following thread has been proven wrong. I know it's very old but was just curious as I still see it mentioned from time to time.
#1388SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
I was using ele/enh as well. But after swap over to enh/res, just like others you would be getting almost as much dps, but with better survivabilities. Being able to throw yourself a healing wave that can top you up in a lot of situation making yourself not being a liability to the raid. The rest of the point has been mentioned so i won't repeat. Things might change in patch 2.3 thou.

Just review some of my wws, was having dodge rating hover ard 5%, ranging from 3%-7% as well, and the last blindman fight was at 6%.
#1389SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
That thread seems so misleading.
As far as i know, by adding a 30% crit (imp backstab) it converts 30% of your hit% to crit%. and leaving your miss chance untouch.
So if you are left with 25% hit buffer, the extra 5% crit is not going to convert your miss to hit nor crit but just wasted.
#1390SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Ryley View Post
Stupid question, but can mobs dodge while casting spells?
They can dodge yes, and can even parry if you attack them from the front or if they do the "rotate to face the guy I'm casting at" animation.
#1391SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Viator
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
As has been mentioned before, there are other less tangible benefits to putting points into the resto tree. If all you're concerned about is your personal DPS, than yes, by all means spec into Elemental. The resto tree offers a number of talent points that are beneficial to your raid. Increased totem area of effect, cheaper totems (so that you can continue to DPS and drop totems), improved Ankh (can't drop totems if you're dead!), and a chance at uninteruptable heals (spam heal yourself to stay alive when you pull aggro).
That's part of the reason I'm so interested in seeing how the coming changes affect things. On the one hand, 18 elemental may be sustainable. On the other you still have all of those intangibles. For me I just don't see myself going elemental as my secondary although it should be stated that having to go 45 into Enhancement makes the Resto tree a little less appealing with only 16 to spend in it.

Firm numbers will tell of course. I just think about that Maulgar run where an errant Blast Wave caught a couple healers and my healing literally was the difference between success and failure, light as a no +healing geared guy's healing is.
#1392SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
They can dodge yes, and can even parry if you attack them from the front or if they do the "rotate to face the guy I'm casting at" animation.
I'm 99% positive that they can't. If a mob flips to instant cast they can parry, but if it's an actual cast bar they can't; otherwise Reliquary would be ridiculous.
#1393SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I'm 99% positive that they can't. If a mob flips to instant cast they can parry, but if it's an actual cast bar they can't; otherwise Reliquary would be ridiculous.
I searched EJ before my first response, and just now searched again to verify and have found at least 10 seperate posts by members of the community that say that mobs can dodge and parry while casting.
#1394SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
You can just spend 14 point in resto.
- 5 point for Imp Healing Wave.
- 2 point for Imp Ankh, 3 point in Totemic Focus
- 3 point for Nature Guidance, 1 for Totemic Mastery

Well this is my preference as i am playing as a dpser/off healer quite frequently.
An Enhancement/Resto Shaman will normally have around 45-50% white dmg, 35-40% windfury, 10% stormstrike, and the rest on misc like shocks.
An Enhancement/Ele Shaman will normally have around 45% white dmg, 30-35% windfury, 8-10% stormstrike, and around 10-15% shocks.

So spending 15-18 point to improve shocks wouldn't help you that much compare to Nature guidance, esp when Enhancement shaman faced threat problem as a major issue. Being able to self sustain and giving the raid more utility (totem range) is more useful.
#1395SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Viator
I know a lot of people are intrigued by the possibilities of Elemental Devastation with the coming changes. Are we able to project out what sort of damage boost we're looking at if you went 18/43 or are we going to have to wait for some ingame parses?
#1396SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Viator, check this post
#1397SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Viator
Whoopsy!

That'll teach me to actually work when I'm in the office.

Even still, losing the 3% to hit from Resto seems too big to lose to me in comparison. I'm also a horrible twister.
#1398SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I searched EJ before my first response, and just now searched again to verify and have found at least 10 seperate posts by members of the community that say that mobs can dodge and parry while casting.
Take a look at the reliquary thread.

http://elitistjerks.com/432404-post186.html for example. There are many others stating the same thing.
#1399SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Remember that Ele Devastation only proc when you have a spell crits. For an enh shaman you will probably have around 5-6% spell crit (unless you trying to get spell crits from gem or gear other than int).

Here we assume:
- Taking 6% spell crit for theorycraft
- 9% of melee crit, last 10sec of Ele Devastation
- With 5sec shock non stop spamming

In an IDEAL case:
Ele Devast up time = 6% x 2 shock = 12% (Assuming the shock crit & land nicely)
12% x 9% = 1.08% avg melee crit

Compare to Nature guidance which is 3% melee& spell hit, is truely a big difference. I might be wrong in the ideal calculation. But i think it gives you an idea on how Ele Devastation is currently bad for enhancement shaman.

The incoming changes is not going to do anything to your spell crits but only spell damage. Unless they change it such that FT, FB crit proc for elemental devastation, else it is still not a good talent afterall.
#1400SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Take a look at the reliquary thread.

http://elitistjerks.com/432404-post186.html for example. There are many others stating the same thing.
That's referring specifically to interrupt abilities though. Another post by Quigon also states that mobs such as Vaelstraz would turn to cast and would proc strings of parries on rogues.

Here's the Quigon post - http://elitistjerks.com/438652-post681.html
I could be wrong on the doge bit, but the parry seems to hold true, even if its a bug in the mechanic.

Last edited by Malan : 08/14/07 at 4:30 PM.
#1401SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sinmul
Originally Posted by Viator View Post
Whoopsy!

That'll teach me to actually work when I'm in the office.

Even still, losing the 3% to hit from Resto seems too big to lose to me in comparison. I'm also a horrible twister.
You'll get used to it with some practice. On my very first Kara run with my alt-Shaman it just happened to be the day of (or close to?) the hot-fix nerf to WF totem. I was a little distraught by that so I decided to totem twist and I felt it turned out pretty well. I wish I would have had a Kara run prior to the nerf just to see number wise where everything fell.

From what I could see graphically, it appeared to proc a good number of times for the Rogue and Prot-warrior in my group. And the stats showed 283 procs for the Rogue and 381 for the Prot-warrior over the course about 3 hours and 15 minutes. So roughly about 1.5 procs per minute for the Rogue and 2.05 per minute for the Warrior. OK ... It doesn't look so good that way, but again, I wish I had before-nerf stats to compare the results. From everything I've read though, it's a drop, which is a shame as WF totem doesn't benefit me at all.

And if you can ignore my low DPS numbers (I wasn't shocking near as much as I should have) and my sub-par gear, I thought I did alright. What was really impressive to me was the speed we took out some of the bosses. Aran was dead in just over 2 minutes ... and that's something I haven't even done with my main.

First Kara Run - wws log.

All I know is my melee group loved having WF and GoA. And towards the end I was even tossing in WoA for the hunters scorpid pet at the beginning and then going into totem twisting.

It's probably just a matter of time before they 'fix' totem twisting. But you know, I had a lot of fun doing it.

-sin
#1402SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Sinmul View Post
It's probably just a matter of time before they 'fix' totem twisting. But you know, I had a lot of fun doing it.
That's the word I was looking for. Totem twisting makes raiding as enhancement fun again. The normal auto-attack + shock + SS rotation was boring as hell for me. But that's a bit off-topic, so I'm done talking about it.
#1403SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
AEP system

I am new to this forum, this is my second post only, please do not consider it as a personal assault in any form because it may state something that you used to think different about.
I am really impressed by the knowlege collected here and would like to contribute.
Let’s take a look of what is a typical answer that one will receive upon asking questions “what is my expected dps given the following gear?” or which is the same, “what is the best upgrade?” That person will be forwarded to the first page for the following algorithm:
Extensive modeling, simulation, and empirical testing by Disquette (post), Pater (post), and Tornhoof (post) have produced a generally agreed-upon set of numbers for determining the items which produce the highest DPS in a raid environment. The average of the most reliable closed-form model and iterative simulations have produced the following set of attack power equivalency valuations (AEP), for use in manual calculations or programs such as Lootzor or Pawn: Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings) Crit Rating = 2 Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings) Hit Rating = 1.4 Attack Power = 1
Here goes my key statement that I will defend bellow:
AEP system’s use is so limited that it can not be used in answering the question which piece of armor will boost dps more.
I will provide simple examples with numbers later but let’s start with the following absurd statement “Extensive modeling, simulation, and empirical testing by Dr.Lee, Dr. Ivanov and Dr. Jones show that an average clicnic-wide temperature is 35,6 C (while normal is 36,6 C) and blood pressure = 110 systolic (normal being 120). These tests have produced a generally agreed-upon set of numbers for determining the pills which produce the highest positive effect. The average of the most reliable closed-form model and iterative simulations have produced the following set of temperature equivalency valuations (TEP), for use in pills selection: 1 TEP =1 C = 10 pulses. Every patient in the clinic will be given any mix of pills that increases their TEP by 2, including those with boiling blood and those at morgue.”
Here are chosen data values from empirical testing by Disquette (post).
Example 1.
2400 AP, 190 HR, 18% crit produce 776,62 dps
100 AP increase results in 789,75 dps, that is 0,1313 increase per point of AP
50 hit rating increase results in 812,54 dps, that is 0,7184 increas per point of HR
This provides HR = 5,4714 AP instead of suggested “for everybody” HR = 1,4 AP
Example 2.
800 AP, 340 HR, 31,5% crit = 531,4 dps
100 AP increase results in 556,7 dps, that is 0,253 increase per point of AP
50 hit rating increase results in 539,52 dps, that is 0,1624 increas per point of HR
This provides HR = 0,6419 AP instead of suggested “for everybody” HR = 1,4 AP
From the function analysis pov AEP is “gradient” and it should be different at every point. Replacing non-linear cross-dependent arguments with their linear combination with static weights is not allowed – that is exactly what AEP is doing. Simply put the function dps = function (AEP) can not exist.
So, instead of believing that Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings) Crit Rating = 2 Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings) Hit Rating = 1.4 Attack Power = 1 for everyone, it is in fact true for only one combination of Str, CR, Agi, Haste, etc. and in a very close vicinity around that combination. Furthermore, even in that vicinity any combination of the above attributes having the same total AEP may provide better or worse DPS than just one attribute value worth of the same AEP.
You can safely replace CR with Agi and AP with Str because they are dependent linearly, but replacing any of Str, Agi, HR, Haste with each other is not possible with static ratio.
Here is an example of non-linear cross interaction.
Think about assigning static AEP value to the item with chance-on-hit. It is obvious that haste will result in item working more, even with possible hidden cooldown that complicates haste-proc dependence. Up to 6 times faster given all available haste buffs. So, depending on haste, stat increase provided by item that is supposed to be measured by AEP can be rather different while the static item always provides same stat benefit . Same goes to haste – increasing haste by set amount will produce different results depending on how many “chance on hit” items you carry in complex non-linear way. As a side note, several items similar to dragonspine trophy can provide something similar to a “time horizon effect” of “black holes” increasing chance on hitting again while the proc lasts to almost 100% effectively making procs last forever.

So, what is the correct answer to the question “what is the best upgrade?” ?
There are several possible solutions.
1) the very best one is analytical – finding the exact formula dps =function(ap, crit, hit,…).
You simply put your ap, crit, hit, etc. values and get the probability distribution of expected dps.
Finding analytical solution is very impressive achievement and a holy grail of theorycrafting.
So far it was not found.
2) simulation – creating sim that behaves exactly like in game is considerable achievement.
So far several sims were created, none of them covering all game mechanics such as ppm trinkets, etc. and some of them are not corresponding with the in-game tests by a big margin.
3) matrix-method – uses data, mined during in-game tests directly. It looks up your values in the spreadsheet and returns corresponding recorded dps.
So, my answer would be:
1) try searching available collected raw data for your values, find corresponding dps, search for the new values with planned upgrade and compare the new dps
2) if you can not find your combo recorded – try entering your values into simulating programs that possibly can fill the gap
3) use Lootzor and AEP weights from first page as “poor man’s” last hope, do not use it at all if you are experimenting with alternative gear such as with a lot of +haste and chance-on-hit procs.
#1404SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
@ Yo, you may want to clean up that wall of text a little.
#1405SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oogg
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
I am new to this forum, this is my second post only, please do not consider it as a personal assault in any form because it may state something that you used to think different about.
I am really impressed by the knowlege collected here and would like to contribute.
Let’s take a look of what is a typical answer that one will receive upon asking questions “what is my expected dps given the following gear?” or which is the same, “what is the best upgrade?” That person will be forwarded to the first page for the following algorithm:

Here goes my key statement that I will defend bellow:
AEP system’s use is so limited that it can not be used in answering the question which piece of armor will boost dps more.
I will provide simple examples with numbers later but let’s start with the following absurd statement “Extensive modeling, simulation, and empirical testing by Dr.Lee, Dr. Ivanov and Dr. Jones show that an average clicnic-wide temperature is 35,6 C (while normal is 36,6 C) and blood pressure = 110 systolic (normal being 120). These tests have produced a generally agreed-upon set of numbers for determining the pills which produce the highest positive effect. The average of the most reliable closed-form model and iterative simulations have produced the following set of temperature equivalency valuations (TEP), for use in pills selection: 1 TEP =1 C = 10 pulses. Every patient in the clinic will be given any mix of pills that increases their TEP by 2, including those with boiling blood and those at morgue.”
Here are chosen data values from empirical testing by Disquette (post).
Example 1.
2400 AP, 190 HR, 18% crit produce 776,62 dps
100 AP increase results in 789,75 dps, that is 0,1313 increase per point of AP
50 hit rating increase results in 812,54 dps, that is 0,7184 increas per point of HR
This provides HR = 5,4714 AP instead of suggested “for everybody” HR = 1,4 AP
Example 2.
800 AP, 340 HR, 31,5% crit = 531,4 dps
100 AP increase results in 556,7 dps, that is 0,253 increase per point of AP
50 hit rating increase results in 539,52 dps, that is 0,1624 increas per point of HR
This provides HR = 0,6419 AP instead of suggested “for everybody” HR = 1,4 AP
From the function analysis pov AEP is “gradient” and it should be different at every point. Replacing non-linear cross-dependent arguments with their linear combination with static weights is not allowed – that is exactly what AEP is doing. Simply put the function dps = function (AEP) can not exist.
So, instead of believing that Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings) Crit Rating = 2 Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings) Hit Rating = 1.4 Attack Power = 1 for everyone, it is in fact true for only one combination of Str, CR, Agi, Haste, etc. and in a very close vicinity around that combination. Furthermore, even in that vicinity any combination of the above attributes having the same total AEP may provide better or worse DPS than just one attribute value worth of the same AEP.
You can safely replace CR with Agi and AP with Str because they are dependent linearly, but replacing any of Str, Agi, HR, Haste with each other is not possible with static ratio.
Here is an example of non-linear cross interaction.
Think about assigning static AEP value to the item with chance-on-hit. It is obvious that haste will result in item working more, even with possible hidden cooldown that complicates haste-proc dependence. Up to 6 times faster given all available haste buffs. So, depending on haste, stat increase provided by item that is supposed to be measured by AEP can be rather different while the static item always provides same stat benefit . Same goes to haste – increasing haste by set amount will produce different results depending on how many “chance on hit” items you carry in complex non-linear way. As a side note, several items similar to dragonspine trophy can provide something similar to a “time horizon effect” of “black holes” increasing chance on hitting again while the proc lasts to almost 100% effectively making procs last forever.

So, what is the correct answer to the question “what is the best upgrade?” ?
There are several possible solutions.
1) the very best one is analytical – finding the exact formula dps =function(ap, crit, hit,…).
You simply put your ap, crit, hit, etc. values and get the probability distribution of expected dps.
Finding analytical solution is very impressive achievement and a holy grail of theorycrafting.
So far it was not found.
2) simulation – creating sim that behaves exactly like in game is considerable achievement.
So far several sims were created, none of them covering all game mechanics such as ppm trinkets, etc. and some of them are not corresponding with the in-game tests by a big margin.
3) matrix-method – uses data, mined during in-game tests directly. It looks up your values in the spreadsheet and returns corresponding recorded dps.
So, my answer would be:
1) try searching available collected raw data for your values, find corresponding dps, search for the new values with planned upgrade and compare the new dps
2) if you can not find your combo recorded – try entering your values into simulating programs that possibly can fill the gap
3) use Lootzor and AEP weights from first page as “poor man’s” last hope, do not use it at all if you are experimenting with alternative gear such as with a lot of +haste and chance-on-hit procs.
Yo, this community seems to be working within the solution space that you have indicated. We have not found the holy grail and it may be even more difficult than you indicate considering the ever changing nature of mechanics, talents, and itemization due to patches. Please understand that some of us comprehend the nonlinear nature of the stat interactions and take the tools, data collection, and theories at face value. There are simply no better tools offered at this time. The fact that this is a sane discussion of enhancement shaman theorycraft after 57 pages is an accomplishment itself. I'm willing to accept some non "doctoral" theory and tool development since it is freely provided. If you would like to offer your services as a statistician or data specialist, I'm sure one of the "tool" developers would be happy to use your services.
#1406SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
I'm fairly certain everyone here understands that the values listed in the first post are only to be used as a general guide if your stats are similar to the ones used to determine the values.
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
1) the very best one is analytical – finding the exact formula dps =function(ap, crit, hit,…).
You simply put your ap, crit, hit, etc. values and get the probability distribution of expected dps.
Finding analytical solution is very impressive achievement and a holy grail of theorycrafting.
So far it was not found.
2) simulation – creating sim that behaves exactly like in game is considerable achievement.
So far several sims were created, none of them covering all game mechanics such as ppm trinkets, etc. and some of them are not corresponding with the in-game tests by a big margin.
3) matrix-method – uses data, mined during in-game tests directly. It looks up your values in the spreadsheet and returns corresponding recorded dps.
1) Doesn't exist, not worth worrying about.
2) Best source of info we have right now probably why it's used so widely.
3) Such a matrix doesn't exist to my knowledge and the number of variables that would need to be accounted for in producing one is staggering to imagine.

So, my answer would be:
1) try searching available collected raw data for your values, find corresponding dps, search for the new values with planned upgrade and compare the new dps
2) if you can not find your combo recorded – try entering your values into simulating programs that possibly can fill the gap
3) use Lootzor and AEP weights from first page as “poor man’s” last hope, do not use it at all if you are experimenting with alternative gear such as with a lot of +haste and chance-on-hit procs.
1) Search where exactly?
2) Certainly, however doing so is a challenge to less technically inclined users.
3) For those unable/unwilling to simulate for themselves it's certainly better than just guessing at what values are useful.
#1407SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Ok, when you start with this:
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
I am new to this forum, this is my second post only, please do not consider it as a personal assault in any form
but then follow it up with this:
let’s start with the following absurd statement
which makes a satire of the work that several people on this board have accomplished. When you do that, you leave little room for it to be taken as anything other than a personal assault.

That said, your argument is somewhat baffling to me since the quotation you listed states that the AEP are values "generally agreed upon" by the community. Nowhere are claims made that these are perfect and infallible values. While the front post does contain references to the 3 posts that you took some info from, those are there to provide credit to those 3 simulation authors, not to be used as authoritative sources for everything else in the post. Much of the information as we know at has changed quite a bit from the 3 links you're disputing. Further, your solutions fly in the face of the very problem you said you would set out to disprove. You begin by saying that the AEP values are wrong, and then conclude by telling everyone to just use the simulations which are exactly where the AEP values were derived from!
#1408SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bufford
Yo! seems a bunch of people are jumping on you for your post, I will only a little...

Let’s take a look of what is a typical answer that one will receive upon asking questions “what is my expected dps given the following gear?” or which is the same, “what is the best upgrade?” That person will be forwarded to the first page for the following algorithm:
Despite the variances those formulas will generally give that person the correct answer. If it does happen to be off it will only be so by a very small margin. When people ask this they want to generally know what item is better for my guy Item A or Item B. They are not asking "Which item will result in 12.5676 dps increase where the exact hard numbers would completely matter. Most people know that it is not going to be the definitive end all answer 100% of the time, but are looking for a little help deciding.

An extreme example I know but if +hit is valued at 1.4 do you think people are really going to wonder why they just added +50 hit and their dps didn't go up if they are already at 500 +hit? No of course not.

People that come and post here are expected to have some base knowledge about their class. These are not the WoW general forums where complete idiocy runs so rampant. It appears you put a lot of work into your numbers, most people here apprecieate hard work so long as you present it with the right attitude, in short welcome to the community.
#1409SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
That's referring specifically to interrupt abilities though. Another post by Quigon also states that mobs such as Vaelstraz would turn to cast and would proc strings of parries on rogues.

Here's the Quigon post - http://elitistjerks.com/438652-post681.html
I could be wrong on the doge bit, but the parry seems to hold true, even if its a bug in the mechanic.
Mobs can parry while casting but they definitely cannot dodge while casting. Otherwise encounters like Illidari Council and Reliquary of Souls would be pretty ridiculous.
#1410SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sudoxe
I am a long time reader of the EJ forums and have always loved the ability to find intelligent and mature discussion about relevant topics here. This thread has been a especially good source of information for me in the last while. Thank you Malan for starting this thread and constantly updating that first post as discussion brings out important findings. I have read most of this thread, but I have to admit I have probably missed some as occasionally it gains pages so fast. I have never posted before, but wanted to see if I could direct some discussion towards some things I have been thinking about.

When BC came out this character was a alt and his professions weren't a big deal to me. He currently has Alchemy (Transmute) and Jewelcrafting, with very few patterns. Since then I have switched guilds and he has become my main. I am thinking about switching professions and am wondering if there is a opinion on how much it is worth starting from scratch on some of them or how good they are overall.

Blacksmithing. I am currently running Decapitator MH and Merc Gladiator OH. My guild is in the middle of SSC in content. Is it worth leveling Blacksmithing to get the Dragonstrike or should I just wait until we get to BT to get a Rising Tide and or Syphon? I have been planning on trying to get a second Arena weapon, but no one seems to want a Enhancement Shaman on their Arena Team. I haven't been willing to respec for Arena cause my healing or elemental gear isn't that good either. Just wondering some opinions.

Leatherworking. Is it worth leveling this up fresh? Some of the craftable gear seems really good, the leather more so then the mail. It would also provide another person in our melee group with Drums of Battle.

Enchanting. The ring enchants are very unique and something I leveled on my paladin at the start of BC cause I felt they were a great personal buff from my profession. Is the +4 stats per ring worth it?

Just wondering if anyone has any overall opinions on what professions are the best for a Enhancement Shaman. Please feel free to make any other comments on my gear. I am always looking to improve in any way I can.
#1411SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Sudoxe View Post
I am a long time reader of the EJ forums and have always loved the ability to find intelligent and mature discussion about relevant topics here. This thread has been a especially good source of information for me in the last while. Thank you Malan for starting this thread and constantly updating that first post as discussion brings out important findings. I have read most of this thread, but I have to admit I have probably missed some as occasionally it gains pages so fast. I have never posted before, but wanted to see if I could direct some discussion towards some things I have been thinking about.

When BC came out this character was a alt and his professions weren't a big deal to me. He currently has Alchemy (Transmute) and Jewelcrafting, with very few patterns. Since then I have switched guilds and he has become my main. I am thinking about switching professions and am wondering if there is a opinion on how much it is worth starting from scratch on some of them or how good they are overall.

Blacksmithing. I am currently running Decapitator MH and Merc Gladiator OH. My guild is in the middle of SSC in content. Is it worth leveling Blacksmithing to get the Dragonstrike or should I just wait until we get to BT to get a Rising Tide and or Syphon? I have been planning on trying to get a second Arena weapon, but no one seems to want a Enhancement Shaman on their Arena Team. I haven't been willing to respec for Arena cause my healing or elemental gear isn't that good either. Just wondering some opinions.

Leatherworking. Is it worth leveling this up fresh? Some of the craftable gear seems really good, the leather more so then the mail. It would also provide another person in our melee group with Drums of Battle.

Enchanting. The ring enchants are very unique and something I leveled on my paladin at the start of BC cause I felt they were a great personal buff from my profession. Is the +4 stats per ring worth it?

Just wondering if anyone has any overall opinions on what professions are the best for a Enhancement Shaman. Please feel free to make any other comments on my gear. I am always looking to improve in any way I can.
Smithing is definitely worth it. Dragonstrike is an amazing weapon that I am unable to replace in the current raid zones. I leveled up leather working for the sole purpose of Drums of Battle, but I haven't paid much attention to the craftable gear. I wouldn't worry about enchanting; +4 stats is revered scales of the sand, something that I think a half dozen guilds that have been killing Archimonde for a while have accomplished.
#1412SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
If I weren't shackled to Alchemy for the rest of my life I'd do Leatherworking and Blacksmithing for sure. Get out while you still can!
#1413SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
If I weren't shackled to Alchemy for the rest of my life I'd do Leatherworking and Blacksmithing for sure. Get out while you still can!
I'm already a leatherworker, but I'm scared that leveling blacksmithing will be extremely expensive to do without mining. I get the impression that it costs about 5000G or more to get blacksmithing from 0-375 these days, anyone got any information about that?
#1414SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Further, your solutions fly in the face of the very problem you said you would set out to disprove. You begin by saying that the AEP values are wrong, and then conclude by telling everyone to just use the simulations which are exactly where the AEP values were derived from!
Nothing wrong here. These sims helped to find AEP values as average over huge range of possible stat combos. What I am saying is that using these average values for the whole spectrum of these combos is wrong. Sims can be used to find real AEP at any given point (which is what gradient is) that can be used at lootzor for first-hand comparison with careful understanding that the further you get from starting point (the more items you are going to change) the more different results will be from what AEP score suggests leading to a possible mistake in choosing items. It is much more accurate to use sim for one set of items, get expected DPS 1, use sim for another set, get expected DPS 2, compare, continue if needed.
#1415SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Aeolian
Ardonomus, see if some of your guild members will help you out. The three other shamans in my guild contributed a lot of the ore needed to level blacksmithing from 300-375. Pre-300 is actually fairly inexpensive if your server has a decent economy. I spent roughly 700g to get to 300, after that I spent another 1000g or so on my own materials. Added to that the large chunk I had given to me it would probably total 2500g or so. Its definitely not cheap, and I had to put off getting my epic mount to power level Leatherworking as well as Blacksmithing.

But with all that said, Dragonstrike is very much worth it. Its unlikely that I will replace it any time soon. Even once my guild is into Black Temple I'll probably run with it along side Syphon.
#1416SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Bufford View Post
Yo! seems a bunch of people are jumping on you for your post, I will only a little...
Despite the variances those formulas will generally give that person the correct answer. If it does happen to be off it will only be so by a very small margin. When people ask this they want to generally know what item is better for my guy Item A or Item B. ...
It all comes down to the question how much "a very small margin" is
My examples with data that is not way different from what can happen in a game show that AEP values are several times off of what they should be at the given situation. If put into Lootzor it will provide the list of possible upgrades in the wrong order, some of the items will actually lead to decrese in DPS.

Originally Posted by Bufford View Post
It appears you put a lot of work into your numbers, most people here apprecieate hard work so long as you present it with the right attitude, in short welcome to the community.
Thanks!
#1417SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Nothing wrong here. These sims helped to find AEP values as average over huge range of possible stat combos. What I am saying is that using these average values for the whole spectrum of these combos is wrong. Sims can be used to find real AEP at any given point (which is what gradient is) that can be used at lootzor for first-hand comparison with careful understanding that the further you get from starting point (the more items you are going to change) the more different results will be from what AEP score suggests leading to a possible mistake in choosing items. It is much more accurate to use sim for one set of items, get expected DPS 1, use sim for another set, get expected DPS 2, compare, continue if needed.
This is what I was worried about. There is definitely some of the gradient effect (to use a coarse term), but when I went through the output of the sim after running the one called "big test", the gradient effect wasn't nearly as pronounced as I thought it would be.

Yeah, as your crit% went up, so did the effect of each AP increase. However, when looking at it in dps% increases per increases in hit/crit/AP, it was much closer to linear than I thought it would be.

That's on a relatively old version of the sim - I really need to get my laptop back from the shop so I can do more sim v. real-life tests to tune it right.

That's my biggest concern right now. I want to be able to look at a recap/wws of a fight, find out what my crit%, hit%, dodge%, parry% was, put them into the sim along with my base AP, and come within 1% of the observed dps for a variety of gear. (assuming I know the mob armor). I don't really care who's sim does this - joe's, pater's, tornhoof's closed form. It'd just be nice to have any one of them mirror game mechanics close enough so that we can say "here it is, that is all".
#1418SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
I'm fairly certain everyone here understands that the values listed in the first post are only to be used as a general guide if your stats are similar to the ones used to determine the values.
This hits the nail! This is exactly what has to be written before introducing AEP numbers.
However they are only to be used as a general guide if your stats are similar to the only one "perfect" combo - not all the ones used to determine the values. Sims cover very different combos and than simply round up all the results producing average AEP values that are several times different from the AEP values for some of combos covered.

Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
1) Doesn't exist, not worth worrying about.
2) Best source of info we have right now probably why it's used so widely.
3) Such a matrix doesn't exist to my knowledge and the number of variables that would need to be accounted for in producing one is staggering to imagine.
1) Search where exactly?
2) Certainly, however doing so is a challenge to less technically inclined users.
3) For those unable/unwilling to simulate for themselves it's certainly better than just guessing at what values are useful.
1.1 Let's hope Blizzard has one
1.2 Agreed
1.3 It is of course far from perfect - provides data through set intervals (discrete), runs through combos of only few stats, may be collected from too short samples, some unaccounted events could affect data while being recorded, etc. But they are still better for the large spectrum of possible combos than AEP that is perfect for only one and good in the small vicinity. So, that being said, if you happen to find your stats being recorded - use it, if not use sim.
2.1 Data sets mentioned on first page can be used better than AEP system for the values they cover.
2.2. Certainly.
2.3 Using AEP+lootzor will definitely provide wrong order of possible upgrades for some stat combos that players may have with some items leading to decrese in DPS. Is it better than just guessing at what values are useful?

Last edited by Yo! : 08/14/07 at 8:32 PM.
#1419SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
2.3 Using AEP+lootzor will definitely provide wrong order of possible upgrades for some stat combos that players may have with some items leading to decrese in DPS. Is it better than just guessing at what values are useful?
Yes, it is much better than just guessing. I suspect you're overestimating the difference in values. I know that for myself my stats have gone from very close to the numbers the original scales are based on to very different. I've gained lots of ap, some crit, tons of haste and lost lots of hit, but when I make a scale today using the same sim the original one was created with the values have only changed by 0.2-0.3. This means that putting them into lootzor results in a nearly identical order for item rankings, the best items are still the best. It's not exactly the same but it's so close as not to matter.
#1420SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
2.3 Using AEP+lootzor will definitely provide wrong order of possible upgrades for some stat combos that players may have with some items leading to decrese in DPS. Is it better than just guessing at what values are useful?
Show us which items are wrong then, because it sure as heck seems accurate to me, once you consider that Lootzor doesn't have haste rating enabled.
#1421SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Show us which items are wrong then, because it sure as heck seems accurate to me, once you consider that Lootzor doesn't have haste rating enabled.
I agree, I'd like to see an example where there's an appreciable upgrade in Lootzor rating but sims say that the item would be a downgrade.
#1422SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3xereva
I'm following this thread for quiet some time already and i love it. This is my first post here.
I'm using two 2.6 speed blue weapons at the moment ([Demonblood Eviscerator] and [Boggspine Knuckles]). We only just started to do kara every now and then and yesterday [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] dropped and i got it. Now i know that slower weapons are better and that it's also good to have the same speed main and offhand. But you think i could better use the wolf paw then the eviscerator? At least my offhand is slower then...
#1423SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by xereva View Post
I'm following this thread for quiet some time already and i love it. This is my first post here.
I'm using two 2.6 speed blue weapons at the moment ([Demonblood Eviscerator] and [Boggspine Knuckles]). We only just started to do kara every now and then and yesterday [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] dropped and i got it. Now i know that slower weapons are better and that it's also good to have the same speed main and offhand. But you think i could better use the wolf paw then the eviscerator? At least my offhand is slower then...
The extra 16dps on the weapon will more than compensate for the 0.1 difference.
#1424SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
@Yo, I wrote a program to specifically tackle the "problem" you wrote about in your long post. See page one under models/simulators etc. While the actual result dps migh be too high (ideal encounter and stuff) the change in dps based on equipment changes should scale linearly too.

On the other hand while the calculated AEP values are only valid for one exact build, the deviation for other builds/equip values is not that great, without considering the extreme values, it is around 0.1 for each value. So simply spoken, if you have no crit to keep UR/flurry up to a certain extent, +crit is more valuable for you by a small amount.
If you have no +hit to even get 9% +hit, +hit is more valuable etc.

But for a common raidbuffed enh shaman the calculated aep values are as valid as they can get without considering each equipment individually, which my program does, the results are fairly identical, though.
#1425SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hexxus
Originally Posted by xereva View Post
I'm following this thread for quiet some time already and i love it. This is my first post here.
I'm using two 2.6 speed blue weapons at the moment ([Demonblood Eviscerator] and [Boggspine Knuckles]). We only just started to do kara every now and then and yesterday [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] dropped and i got it. Now i know that slower weapons are better and that it's also good to have the same speed main and offhand. But you think i could better use the wolf paw then the eviscerator? At least my offhand is slower then...
I currently use [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] in my main hand.
Throw Crusader or Mongoose on that badboy and you'll be in good shape.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3falonub
Ok, so I've been thinking of tweaking my spec a little. Right now I'm 2/2 into Guardian totems. I've seen some use in pvp but more importantly and the primary reason of my post: During Lady Vashj fight I switch myself in the MTs group to give him grounding totem effect to eat her Shock Burst on phase 1/3. I'm wondering if any other shaman that's been in charge has done this with or without this talent as sometimes I put it down and gets absorbed right away and I shit myself as I watch my CD tick away slowly. The timing is supposedly "random" was just wondering if anyone has ever experienced it more than once every fifteen seconds.
#1427SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Zorak
A bit offtopic, sorry.

Hello. This is my first post, but ive been reading this forum for quite some time now,
especially this thread as i am playing a shaman myself. Thanks all you guys for
working out all these facts. I am particularly taken with the AEP calculations. Because
of that, i created a small app that allows me (and you) to compare items based on
those values without being in the game (pawn) or calculating.

I do not know if such a program already existed and if so, it will most likely be better
than mine. But well, give it a try if you are curious. Note that I created the program for
me mainly, i know that it works for me (shaman) on my pc, but i did not really test the
other template features (it allows you to create aep values for nearly every stat, not only
those relevant for us shamans.) and yea, the code is sloppy. if you want it to crash,
it will crash. but normally it should work. if not, tell me.

I currently do not update the program as it suits my needs. However, if some of you guys
(more than 3) like it, tell me what to change, tell me about bugs, suggestions and
i will see what i can do. does anyone need a good xml itemdatabase btw? thats the
main problem currently as the allakhazam database does not support haste (i think).



If you are curious, you can find further facts, a small howto and more screenshots here.

i can not create a new post because i do not have enough posts. if some of you guys
think that it is worth it, you can do so (but link to this post please).

oh yea and: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK! (the program does not do anything fancy and
it will not try to open or alter any file except the templates.xml file.)

Last edited by Zorak : 08/15/07 at 9:30 AM.
#1428SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by falonub View Post
Ok, so I've been thinking of tweaking my spec a little. Right now I'm 2/2 into Guardian totems. I've seen some use in pvp but more importantly and the primary reason of my post: During Lady Vashj fight I switch myself in the MTs group to give him grounding totem effect to eat her Shock Burst on phase 1/3. I'm wondering if any other shaman that's been in charge has done this with or without this talent as sometimes I put it down and gets absorbed right away and I shit myself as I watch my CD tick away slowly. The timing is supposedly "random" was just wondering if anyone has ever experienced it more than once every fifteen seconds.
I was under the impression the CD was 15 seconds, I've never done it myself since we have a resto shaman in the with tank for this, but I dont recall them ever complaining the CD was shorter than grounding.
#1429SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Since I recently got a chance to grab [Icon of Unyielding Courage], I've been wondering if anyone has yet found an AEP value for -armor. (And yes, I know that +hit isn't the best stat I can get )
#1430SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by drc View Post
Since I recently got a chance to grab [Icon of Unyielding Courage], I've been wondering if anyone has yet found an AEP value for -armor. (And yes, I know that +hit isn't the best stat I can get )
There's too many uknowns and its too dynamic since it depends entirely on what the enemy's armor is at the time that you decide to ignore some more. The best we can tell is that 1 point of - Armor seems to be worth 7 item budget points (this was stated 2-3 pages back) and that its AEP value would be something between 1 and 2.2. Not very conclusive, but it would seem to indicate that its a decent stat to have.
#1431SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Crax
I'm new, so forgive me if this is obvious.

The only potential drawback to -armor is that on very low armor mobs, it's possible for it to be worthless since -armor has no effect once a mobs armor is reduced to zero. However, I don't think this is currently an issue for any significant raid bosses.

In fact, the recent testing information in the Hemo thread would seem to indicate that we (the theorycrafting community) have underestimated the value of -armor for quite some time.
#1432SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Can a mob have negative armor? Or once it is at 0 there is no further reduction available?

I'm currently trying to work out future gear options, stormrage signet, BT trash neck, madness of the betrayer and soul cleaver.

What I'm thinking is, if reducing X mob Y armor then the minimum benefit would be Z additional damage, something like Morogrim has pretty high armor, where as Solarian seems to have very little, possibly none?

Sunder is 520 per sunder applied, Would it be possible to work it out from this?
#1433SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Zorak View Post
Hello. This is my first post, but ive been reading this forum for quite some time now,
especially this thread as i am playing a shaman myself. Thanks all you guys for
working out all these facts. I am particularly taken with the AEP calculations. Because
of that, i created a small app that allows me (and you) to compare items based on
those values without being in the game (pawn) or calculating.

...
stuff
...
Very cool, thanks!

On the topic of grounding totems on vashj, I was charged with the same responsibility. I have guardian totems in my build because I pvp occasionally and like them for that purpose. It just happened to be useful in raiding too. I never encountered an instance where grounding was needed and I wasn't able to place it in time.
#1434SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
The problem as described to me was that the calculations do not hold true between the various ranges. -800 armor when the mob only has 2000 armor will lead to a much higher damage increase than if the mob has 20,000 armor and you remove 800. Its not a linear curve.
#1435SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Gwaihir
I think I saw a post in the DPS warrior thread that investigated this specifically.

Yea, this post:
http://elitistjerks.com/442876-post49.html concluded that -armor stops giving any benefit at all once the boss is at zero armor.
#1436SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Here is the prove, that shows that "average" AEP’s use is wrong for the majority of stat combos possible in game by a big margin.

I took data from empirical testing by Disquette and used following algorithm:
For each Hit/AP combo with given crit remember recorded dps.
Find combo that is the previous one with +100 ap and get new dps.
Find the difference and divide it by 100 to get dps increase per point of AP.
Do the same for +50 hit rating step (these are minimal steps presented in collected data) and find dps increase per point of HR. Divide dps per HR by dps per AP to find local AEP ratio for the initial Hit/AP combo.
Here are the results:




The first graph shows actual AEP numbers. Look at how big standard deviation (expected difference from the mean) is = 0.77. Mean = 1.1, it is not surprising that it is different from “generally agreed upon” 1.3 as the later can be easily obtained with another covered range of stat combos. It proves again that these general “average” AEP values provide nothing for specific stat combos that players come up with. Second graph shows probability distribution function for AEP. Each column is 0.2 range – that is a significant change for the weight value. 43% of combos fall into range where actual AEP is below mean by 10% and more, 41% are above mean by 10%, only 16% of combos are within 10% difference from mean. So, there is 84% chance over the whole range of covered combos, that average AEP will be different from your actual AEP by more than 10%. There is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%. That is for one pair Hit-AP only. If same holds true for other pairs, one can speculate, that the probability of at least one weights being wrong by 30% or more is 1-0.455^(number of non-linear dependant attributes). There are 4 such major attributes (AP, Hit, Crit, Haste) so it becomes 96% chance that at least 1 of the weights will be more than 30% wrong.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/15/07 at 12:00 PM.
#1437SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Juice
Statistics to the rescue, nice work.
#1438SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
You state that 0.77 is a large standard deviation, but large compared to what? What is the agreed upon variance in standard deviation for this data?

If I'm understanding this correctly (and given my record there's a good chance that I'm not), you're stating that there is a 96% chance that when comparing Item A to Item B using Pawn or Lootzor, that Item B will incorrectly appear to be an upgrade, because at least one of the stats is valued incorrectly for the particular stats that the player has *at that moment in time*?

If that's the case... does it even really matter? Essentially if a guy with 800 AP, 50 Hit Rating and 15% Crit looks at an item that was valued using AEP that came from a guy with 2200 AP, 150 Hit, 30% Crit - why should he not value that item as an upgrade against a "meta set" of itemization that represents what he would eventually have? ie, I base my upgrades against the expected outcome of all my upgrades, my final set of expected gear.

Last edited by Malan : 08/15/07 at 12:23 PM.
#1439SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Sunder is 520 per sunder applied, Would it be possible to work it out from this?
According to the theories mentioned above the effectiveness of Sunder Armor depends on the enemy's armor. Found something interesting on wowwiki (quoting Sunder Armor - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki) regarding those theories, though:

Sunder Armor is equally effective against any amount of armor, assuming that the armor of a target is at least equal to the armor reduction of a stack of Sunder Armors. This is counter-intuitive, as the amount of damage reduction % decreases with each armor point. However, the effectiveness of each 1% damage reduction increases the more you already have.
That article, if I'm not totally mistaken, suggests -armor is a very valuable stat against any enemy regardless of its armor. And, by the way, implicitly claims that negative armor does not exist, which confirms the result of a quick ingame test.
#1440SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Can a mob have negative armor? Or once it is at 0 there is no further reduction available?

I'm currently trying to work out future gear options, stormrage signet, BT trash neck, madness of the betrayer and soul cleaver.

What I'm thinking is, if reducing X mob Y armor then the minimum benefit would be Z additional damage, something like Morogrim has pretty high armor, where as Solarian seems to have very little, possibly none?

Sunder is 520 per sunder applied, Would it be possible to work it out from this?
You can get TargerArmor to get an "idea" of how much AC your target has, but it doesn't seem to take into account armor penetration or it's entirely inaccurate. I just use the BT neck while a warrior uses all of the -armor jazz and we're showing nearly the same numbers for our targets ac value.
#1441SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oogg
Regression Analysis?

Yo,

Can you do some regression analysis on the variables (AP, crit, hit, etc) and derive a set of variable functions for us to use in our simulations? Barring that, we will have to stick to the linear models we have. You seem to have the mathematical prowess to accomplish this.

On another note. Even if you derive variable functions, they will still need to be applied from the gear backwards as in the lootzor or Tornhoof's model. The reason is that although you may discover the optimal combination of stats at specific values (maximums), the gear may not exist to accommodate that specific maximum. This is one of the reasons that I liked Tornhoof's closed simulation so much. It removed all of the uncontrolled variables and tested existing gear combinations to discover the optimal combinations of gear available to you at that time. I'm speculating, but I think a combination of variable functions and a closed model like Tornhoof's will be the closest we can come to our goal.
#1442SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Juice View Post
Statistics to the rescue, nice work.
Look at the pretty line I get when I look at AP in steps of 400, against larger steps of the increased hit and crit rate



Out of the 36 datapoints, we had:
Mean: 0.23 Dps/AP
StDev: 0.02 (9% of the mean)

It looks like we have a really great model for AP, over a huge range of hit/crit values! Furthermore, since 30% is being accepted as the "close enough" barometer for values by Yo!, I'll use that to test the 36 datapoints I have. Exactly 0 of them fall outside 30% of the mean, so I guess I have a perfect data set.

It even works out like we'd expect, with increasing returns on AP as our hit and crit rate increase (shown by the upward trend in the graph).

Statistics to the rescue indeed.

Now, back to the big_test.xls sheet that i'd uploaded so that people could review it, did everyone just ignore the lines on the bottom of my data set where I included:



I specifically put in those calculations in the big results test so that people would know how widely varied the data points were.

So, let's look at those big hit rating swings. My biggest mistake, probably, was making the steps too small. If you use larger steps, you get nicer numbers to look at. They make pretty graphs like the one above. It has so much variation between runs (that's how shaman work), that sometimes you get flukey things. When you were going through the result data, did you really think that increasing hit rating should decrease dps?

I really hope not. Yet running the sim, there were instances of that. It's yet another thing I specifically pointed out in a separate column so that people would know what they're looking it. So, instead of wallowing through the minutae just so you can exclaim "it's all wrong and worthless", how about you take some time and figure out if, in a broader context, it's meaningful?

Here's an example. I took three of the AP levels (I chose 900, 1700, 2500, because they're evenly spaced and are WAY out of each other's range, so they should satisfy your complaint about gear levels resulting diff APE ratings). I then eliminated half of the hit rating steps (increasing them by 100 instead of 50). This should give me a better picture, and again, should address your notion that APE are not valid across gear ranges.

Now let's look at the pretty picture:


No, it's not nearly as nice as the AP graph, but it's still pretty consistent. Much more than the 70% variability you were discussing. In this case, the average dps/hitrating = .275. The stdev = 0.084 (for a stdev 31% of the mean). This time, using your "30% variation is ok" concept, 71% of data points fall into the acceptable range. If I look across all gear levels, and say that each hit rating is worth just a little bit more than one AP, I'd be pretty accurate, based on the two charts I have posted above, which cover almost the entire range of gearing choices.

Statistics can say what ever you want them to, pretty much. I could probably argue on Yo!'s side and say that all this theorycraft in here is utter garbage, at best meaningless to the shaman community, and at worst ill-advising people. I just need to find the right data that makes graphs that appear horrendous or beautiful.

That's why I'm glad that the theorycraft has been born out in actual game scenarios, with multiple people of varied gear-levels saying "i changed out my hit gems for AP or crit gems, started focusing more on crit and AP, and my dps went up significantly".

I don't know how shaman dps works in many instances. There's all sorts of things that are hard to account for. But just like looking for a coin at night, the first places you check is where it's already light, and you hope you find it there.
#1443SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
When looking at the armor range on bosses it really isn't that large a spread, just about every boss I've seen using targetarmor falls between 3500 and 5500 armor - 25% to 35% mitigation.

As for hitting 0 and -armor losing it's value the lowest I've seen is Essence of Suffering which seems to average about 1700 after sunder and FF, add in CoR and you'd still need -900 to hit 0. Since the most a shaman can equip right now is -301(-601 with MotB procced) it's really not an issue.

As for AEP values I was hoping to get some feedback on my speculation here: http://elitistjerks.com/447956-post1339.html It seems to me that we know how much -armor changes our dps since we know the armor mitigation formulas. The only variables are how much it costs in the item budget, which we don't know but can estimate and what are good values for boss armor which we have a pretty decent idea of. So if we assume 7 -armor for 1 item point and bosses around 4500 armor, I think it's safe to say that on a shaman with T6ish stats(I use my own) it's worth about 1.9(1.8 for 5500 and 2.04 for 3500, 2.34 on EoS btw).
#1444SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aramund
Maybe its a bad assumption, but I always assumed armor penetration would work in the exact opposite way that gaining armor works. When you gain 1,000 armor you gain a set amount of damage reduction. In other words, even though you get a larger percentage of mitigation going from 1,000 armor to 2000 armor than you do going from 10,000 armor to 11,000 armor, the actual amount of damage reduced by that 1,000 armor class gain remains the same.

I always assumed that armor penetration would hold true to this, just backwards. In other words, 300 armor penetration would increase damage by the same amount against a target with 10,000 armor as it would against a target with 1,000 armor. The 1,000 armor target would lose a larger percentage of mitigation obviously, but the increase in damage done to the targets would remain the same.
#1445SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Originally Posted by Aramund View Post
Maybe its a bad assumption, but I always assumed armor penetration would work in the exact opposite way that gaining armor works. When you gain 1,000 armor you gain a set amount of damage reduction. In other words, even though you get a larger percentage of mitigation going from 1,000 armor to 2000 armor than you do going from 10,000 armor to 11,000 armor, the actual amount of damage reduced by that 1,000 armor class gain remains the same.

I always assumed that armor penetration would hold true to this, just backwards. In other words, 300 armor penetration would increase damage by the same amount against a target with 10,000 armor as it would against a target with 1,000 armor. The 1,000 armor target would lose a larger percentage of mitigation obviously, but the increase in damage done to the targets would remain the same.
That is the way I understood theory so far. The wowwiki article I mentioned earlier supports that, too. That'd make -armor valuable not only against targets with just enough armor left to reduce after Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire (which is pretty obvious), but also against high armor targets.
#1446SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Aramund View Post
Maybe its a bad assumption, but I always assumed armor penetration would work in the exact opposite way that gaining armor works. When you gain 1,000 armor you gain a set amount of damage reduction. In other words, even though you get a larger percentage of mitigation going from 1,000 armor to 2000 armor than you do going from 10,000 armor to 11,000 armor, the actual amount of damage reduced by that 1,000 armor class gain remains the same.

I always assumed that armor penetration would hold true to this, just backwards. In other words, 300 armor penetration would increase damage by the same amount against a target with 10,000 armor as it would against a target with 1,000 armor. The 1,000 armor target would lose a larger percentage of mitigation obviously, but the increase in damage done to the targets would remain the same.
I remember a lengthy thread on the conquest forums a couple years back basically said the same thing, and at the time it was probably true, but it doesn't appear to be anymore.

The formula on Armor - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki show a non-linear curve on armor mitigation. You can check it plugging random armory profiles into that formula and you'll see the mitigation % matches it exactly.

As an example using that formula if you assume a 1000 hit and then a 1000 armor reduction we'll get the following results:
10000 armor = 513.56
9000 armor = 539.82
Difference = 26.26

2000 armor = 840.73
1000 armor = 913.48
Difference = 72.74

So unless I've missed something(which is very possible), the armor the mob starts with is a large factor in determining the value of -armor.
#1447SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Iol
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
So unless I've missed something(which is very possible), the armor the mob starts with is a large factor in determining the value of -armor.
The thing you missed is that you based your example on a static 1000 damage hit.

Lowering the Armor makes the % of reduction go down, just like adding armor makes it go up. The value of -armor will go up as your base dmg go up.

For example:

If your target has 50% DR and you can push it to 48% with -armor then thats a 4% increase in dps.

So if you push at 800 dps, then you'd be at 832, for the duration of the -armor. So as your base DPS will go up, so will the value from -armor.

Last edited by Iol : 08/15/07 at 6:12 PM.
#1448SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Iol View Post
The thing you missed is that you based your example on a static 1000 damage hit.

Lowering the Armor makes the % of reduction go down, just like adding armor makes it go up. The value of -armor will go up as your base dmg go up.

For example:

If your target has 50% DR and you can push it to 48% with -armor then thats a 4% increase in dps.

So if you push at 800 dps, then you'd be at 832, for the duration of the -armor. So as your base DPS will go up, so will the value from -armor.
The numerical difference will increase with an increase in the base damage, but the percentage change in damage will always be the same, and will always be larger for the lower armor target. Right?
#1449SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
Since you are using x to value the increase/decrease for both cases, it will allways be the same.

I want to add some numbers to the armor penetration discussion to support Morelis claim.

Using the same formula from wowwiki

Levels 60+ DR% = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))

x / (x+400+85*(70+4.5*(70-59))) =
x / (x+10557.5) =

you: lvl 70, hitting for 1000 damage, attackspeed 1.0
enemy1: lvl 70, 30.000 armor = 73.97% reduction or 260.3 dmg/hit
enemy2: lvl 70, 20.000 armor = 65.45% reduction or 345.5 dmg/hit
enemy3: lvl 70, 10.000 armor = 48.64% reduction or 513.6 dmg/hit
enemy4: lvl 70, 05.000 armor = 32.13% reduction or 678.7 dmg/hit
enemy5: lvl 70, 02.000 armor = 15.93% reduction or 840.7 dmg/hit
enemy6: lvl 70, 01.500 armor = 12.44% reduction or 875.6 dmg/hit


Debuffing the mob with sunder armor, expose armor, fearie fire or wearing armor penetration gear for an amount of -1000 armor will net you those numbers:

enemy1: lvl 70, 29.000 armor = 73.11% reduction or 268.9 dmg/hit
enemy2: lvl 70, 19.000 armor = 64.28% reduction or 357.2 dmg/hit
enemy3: lvl 70, 09.000 armor = 46.02% reduction or 539.8 dmg/hit
enemy4: lvl 70, 04.000 armor = 27.47% reduction or 725.3 dmg/hit
enemy5: lvl 70, 01.000 armor = 08.65% reduction or 913.5 dmg/hit
enemy6: lvl 70, 00.500 armor = 04.52% reduction or 954.8 dmg/hit

enemy1: 3.3% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration
enemy2: 3.4% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration
enemy3: 5.1% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration
enemy4: 6.9% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration
enemy5: 8.6% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration
enemy6: 9.0% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration

Bossarmor is about 5.000 to 8.000 on average defore debuffs are applied, that's why a missing fearie fire will hurt your melee close as much as a missing pot or minor attackpower buff. Armor penetration could help here a lot and it's a decent pvp stat while fighting cloth wearer with 500 resilence. But there's no way you could say 1 AP = -12.5 armor pen on general or average.
#1450SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Well we certainly could do an average and work an AEP from that, but it would be pretty damn inaccurate.
#1476SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malacort View Post
according to the rogues I normally group with, poisonx2 and GoA out damages WF now.
Look at this positive way - it frees 2 talent points and provides AGI for you to boost your DPS
#1477SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yah but Yo! that makes very little sense - if an item is an upgrade it should be an upgrade regardless of the rest of your kit. How can something be good now, but after 2 upgrades to other slots, be worse off?
#1478SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
OK, but what's the margin of error for each of those tests? Maybe the one at 2500 AP, 12% hit was under by 5% while the one at 2400 AP, 14% hit was over by 5%. Then the 20 AP gems would still be better. Focusing on the error in AEP while ignoring the error in simulations strikes me as odd.
That is why I made a post on page 58 running through 600+ data points with main conclusion being " there is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%" (soory for self-quote).

Does resocketing to hit gems still make sense at 100 hit rating? 125 hit rating? 150 hit rating?
No. It is not constant, otherwise new static AEP value would be born.
" there is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%" (soory for self-quote 2).

Yah but Yo! that makes very little sense - if an item is an upgrade it should be an upgrade regardless of the rest of your kit. How can something be good now, but after 2 upgrades to other slots, be worse off?
2 minor upgrades will be not enough for the guy in the example in order to change AEP from 5.5 (that is what local AEP is for him) to 1.3. He happened to be way off from stat combo that values hit rating as 1.4 AP, namely he has too much AP and not enough Crit/Hit.
It does not mean that he has to change his equipment towards the combo where there is 1.4 ratio to improve his DPS, however boosting his DPS by choosing +hit instead of +ap will drift his local AEP from 5.5 towards 1.4 and at some point beyond that.

Look at this another way - how valuable additional +hit rating is when person reaches hit cap? Is it 1.4 ap? Or is it more like 0.0? And it is not changing suddenly like 1.4, 1.4, 1.4 1.4 oops 0. It is drifting towards 0 the more + hit rating you have given AP remains the same (still with a big downfall at the end). Hope this helps.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 9:17 PM.
#1479SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
Of course it does, Malan.

[Cataclysm Gauntlets]
77 AP
1.056 % Crit
1.52 % Hit
(374 HP + 396 Mana and ~ 0.3% Spellcrit)

[Fel Leather Gloves]
62 AP
1.08 % Crit
1.07 % Hit

[Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation]
77 AP
1.52 % Crit
0 % Hit

and compared to eg [Cyclone Gauntlets] (those aren't even on the list!)
59 AP
0.924 Crit
1.20 % Hit
(286 HP + 396 Mana + ~ 0.3% Spellcrit and 5mp5)

Conclusion: There is no huge range between all of them (beside set boni and a bigger mana- and healthpool).

To the "Yo! Discussion",
You are using 12% hit instead of 22%, that's a large difference. It's around hitting only 8 of 9 out of 10 attacks and should result in heavily lower ur/flurry uptime.
I still believe, that 22% hit is a little too highly set for a good aep comparison, it's to close to the hitcap (that's around 25.5 to 27.5 if i remember correctly) while you can "easily" obtain 1000 more ap and/or 10% more crit.

Malacort
What weapons are your rogues wielding? With S2/T3+ weapons, doesn't matter if they are sword/mace/dagger your rogues should get better results from Wf with a combat specc. Only a multilate rogue could really prefer grace of air over windfury for reaching ~ 45-50% crit raidbuffed with the ashtongue trinket buff (that result in a lot more cp from seal fate and ruthlessness/relentless strikes talents) and deadly poison allways up.
#1480SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
To the "Yo! Discussion",
You are using 12% hit instead of 22%, that's a large difference. It's around hitting only 8 of 9 out of 10 attacks and should result in heavily lower ur/flurry uptime.
I still believe, that 22% hit is a little too highly set for a good aep comparison, it's to close to the hitcap (that's around 25.5 to 27.5 if i remember correctly) while you can "easily" obtain 1000 more ap and/or 10% more crit.
Sure, that is why I got expected different AEP value from what would be with more hit.
And that is exactly why "average AEP" provided poor test guy with wrong suggestion for choosing gem. And that is why it should not be used by him. And you feel right that it is not worth reaching hit cap while you can "easily" obtain 1000 more ap and/or 10% more crit because local AEP (true AEP for the specific stat combo) will favor AP and Crit much more than "average AEP". So, following what average AEP suggests is evil. I said it before, did not I?
#1481SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
That is why I made a post on page 58 running through 600+ data points with main conclusion being " there is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%" (soory for self-quote).



2 minor upgrades will be not enough for the guy in the example in order to change AEP from 5.5 (that is what local AEP is for him) to 1.3. He happened to be way off from stat combo that values hit rating as 1.4 AP, namely he has too much AP and not enough Crit/Hit.
It does not mean that he has to change his equipment towards the combo where there is 1.4 ratio to improve his DPS, however boosting his DPS by choosing +hit instead of +ap will drift his local AEP from 5.5 towards 1.4 and at some point beyond that.

Look at this another way - how valuable additional +hit rating is when person reaches hit cap? Is it 1.4 ap? Or is it more like 0.0? And it is not changing suddenly like 1.4, 1.4, 1.4 1.4 oops 0. It is drifting towards 0 the more + hit rating you have (still with a big downfall at the end). Hope this helps.
This and Yo!'s last post are things I agree with. I think of it as building a square, in many respcts. If your objective is to creat the maximum area, and your choices are to lengthen side x or side y, generally you're going to increase the area more by increasing which ever one is already shorter.

Now, we're not dealing with a square, but the attributes (hit/crit/haste/ap) can be seen analagously to one for the purposes of qualitative but not quantitative comparison. If you're really low on hit compared to the other dimension, you're going to get more bang for the buck increasing hit. This is a lot like what stigmata said in a recent post about his gear.

My problem with Yo!'s initial posts were that they made it seem like you got nothing out of assigning the average AEP values. Personally, I agree that AEP changes as you gear up differently. However, my original reason for writing the sim and finding results was to confirm that hit was the be all and end all of enhance shaman statistics - it was the conventional wisdom, but I hadn't seen it proved anywhere, so I wanted to see why. It was quite the shock to find it so underwhelming at certain gear levels.

I still think that it has valid uses - and for a starting shaman with average gear, it gives you a direction to aim for. Once you get to the boundary cases where you've used it to the point that you have 0 hit rating and 1800 AEP, I think it's certainly very worthwhile to re run the sims (or just comprehend it internally) to the point where you have to realize that you're going to get much more of a return on hit than you initially did.

back to the rectangle. Here's how I see shaman decision making 4 months ago based on the gear available then: It's H wide by AP tall.

When H and AP = 10, the area is 100.

It turns out that for $5, you can increase H by 2 or AP by 5. At that point in the general shaman world, people were choosing to increase H by 2 units instead of AP by 5.

Fast forward to the current day, when that rectangle is 8H wide by 20AP tall, for an area of 160 square units.

Now for the same $5, increasing AP to 25 gives you an area of 200. If you were to increase the H dimension by 2, however, you'd have a total area of 200 also - they've normalized.

AEP is good for shaman over a very wide variety of gear. However, when you get to the extremes that AEP will lead you, you will indeed start making sub-optimal gear choices. This is confounded more by the fact that the higher AP goes with raid buffs (people are now raiding with 3k+ AP often with buffs) that hit is going to become more and more important (as will crit, for that matter).

I don't disagree with Yo's statements taken by themselves. What I have disagreed with is that for the vast majority of shaman, the current AEP ratings would misguide them. Gear up through kara, when using AEP, won't let you neglect hit, so shaman have been ok. Accordingly, when I ran the sims, note that AP stopped at around 2500 and crit around 31%. Now that times have changed, and we can see where gear is, a new version should probably be done (esp with haste gear, which was unforseen by me, which would more strongly value +hit). It's impossible to use a constant set of values that is good for everyone, but I think that the ones that have been used to date have helped a lot of shaman from sinking into a trap of "Max +hit first, and then worry about your other stats".

As I've said repeatedly, if tornhoof can get a closed form of parameterized attributes working, that would be my preferred solution.

Yo! - I hope you realize that if I've sounded harsh, it's not because I disagree with the notions you have set forth. I just don't want people thinking that as they grow from dungeons to heroics to SSC/TK, they have been making bad choices. I think the AEP are ok up through that level. Now that we are beyond that, there probably does need to be a rejiggering of values (and preferably in a parameterized way).
#1482SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Btw speaking of AEP, can someone verify that I'm not crazy, lootzor keeps saying a pair of blue crafted gloves are some of the best available. Agree/Disagree? [Fel Leather Gloves]
Agree, since they are pure damage. You're giving up a lot of stamina and armor (and int, but...) using these though, as Myul pointed out. "My" rogues still use these for their damage sets and while I don't want to compare shamans to rogues, the stats both classes long for are basically the same.
#1483SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malacort
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
Malacort
What weapons are your rogues wielding? With S2/T3+ weapons, doesn't matter if they are sword/mace/dagger your rogues should get better results from Wf with a combat specc. Only a multilate rogue could really prefer grace of air over windfury for reaching ~ 45-50% crit raidbuffed with the ashtongue trinket buff (that result in a lot more cp from seal fate and ruthlessness/relentless strikes talents) and deadly poison allways up.
they do use s2/t3+; we have 1 mace spec rogue using bt weapons, 2 sword rogues with s2/hyjal/bt weapons. They were telling me to use goa over wf since their poisons did more dmg than wf was giving them.
#1484SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
No. It is not constant, otherwise new static AEP value would be born.
Sure. But you neglect to address the thrust of my argument: static AEP values are useful at "reasonable" gear combinations. Sure, if you just have 2800 AP and 0 hit rating, that won't be as good as 2600 AP and 100 hit rating even though the AEP values say otherwise. But there's no set of gear which would allow you to obtain 2800 AP and 0 hit. So why pretend that there is ever going to be a shaman running around with 2400 AP and 47 hit when trying to invalidate the use of AEP figures?
Look at this another way - how valuable additional +hit rating is when person reaches hit cap? Is it 1.4 ap? Or is it more like 0.0? And it is not changing suddenly like 1.4, 1.4, 1.4 1.4 oops 0. It is drifting towards 0 the more + hit rating you have given AP remains the same (still with a big downfall at the end).
I think most of us understand and concede this point, but it doesn't follow that AEP is therefore not useful for the vast majority of enhancement shamans -- or even the majority of enhancement shamans with a min-max raiding mindset who read this thread.

I will finally end by noting that I still haven't seen any number for the standard deviation of simulated tests at a given AP/crit/hit number -- unless it's lower than 9%, AEP is actually a better measure (given that the standard deviation of AP across all of Disquette's tests was 9%.)
#1485SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
This and Yo!'s last post are things I agree with. I think of it as building a square, in many respcts. If your objective is to creat the maximum area, and your choices are to lengthen side x or side y, generally you're going to increase the area more by increasing which ever one is already shorter.

Now, we're not dealing with a square, but the attributes (hit/crit/haste/ap) can be seen analagously to one for the purposes of qualitative but not quantitative comparison. If you're really low on hit compared to the other dimension, you're going to get more bang for the buck increasing hit. This is a lot like what stigmata said in a recent post about his gear.
Disquette - it is a honor to talk the same theorycrafting language with you
Squre example was something that I wanted to post next!
Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My).
But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared.
So lets do it now

Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes).
If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point
If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1.
If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage.

Squre example was something that I wanted to post next!
Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My).
But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared.
So lets do it now

Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes).
If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point
If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1.
If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage.

Squre example was something that I wanted to post next!
Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My).
But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared.
So lets do it now

Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes).
If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point
If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1.
If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 10:03 PM.
#1486SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Kaubel
Originally Posted by Lolwhat? View Post
<lots of stats and crap>
Dude, just edit your profile and stick in an armory link.

Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
!!!QUOTE SPLITTING!!!
This is dumb. Just say what you have to say without turning your post into a mountain of words.
#1487SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Sure. But you neglect to address the thrust of my argument: static AEP values are useful at "reasonable" gear combinations. Sure, if you just have 2800 AP and 0 hit rating, that won't be as good as 2600 AP and 100 hit rating even though the AEP values say otherwise. But there's no set of gear which would allow you to obtain 2800 AP and 0 hit. So why pretend that there is ever going to be a shaman running around with 2400 AP and 47 hit when trying to invalidate the use of AEP figures?
What is "reasonable" gear combinations for you? Please take a look at big_test.xls - all of the combos recorded there were taken in-game. There are no 2800 AP 0 hit combos in there. AP runs from 800 to 2500 in 100 ap steps, hit changes from 12% to 25% in 50 hit rating steps, crit changes from 18% to 31.5%


... it doesn't follow that AEP is therefore not useful for the vast majority of enhancement shamans -- or even the majority of enhancement shamans with a min-max raiding mindset who read this thread.

I will finally end by noting that I still haven't seen any number for the standard deviation of simulated tests at a given AP/crit/hit number -- unless it's lower than 9%, AEP is actually a better measure (given that the standard deviation of AP across all of Disquette's tests was 9%.)
If you will accept combos recorded in big_test.xls as "reasonable" than AEP is not useful for the vast majority of enhancement shamans that have such combos in game... Average AEP may provide worst suggestions to the most non-average geared players such as Elitist Jerks raiding BT . Especially with availability of +haste items. It will be actually possible to count exactly how many shamans will not benefit from "average" AEP if projects such as Armory Musings... will provide database for free download.
Each test at a given AP/crit/hit number was run for 1 hour, there were no repeated tests for the same AP/crit/hit combo. Disquette knows more about it as he is the one responsible for that test

Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 10:38 PM.
#1488SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
I allmost understand your cube/square example, but shouldn't you try to fit it to our certain problem?
By only comparing hit and ap, there is some point (0% hit), when ap won't benefit you something, to.
But we are not talking about the minimum stats, we are talking about some much more common stats. The extremes might happen once in a blue moon and are a mathematical phenomenon, but aren't important in this case.

No person will spend all his dkp to gain 100 other ap, the margin is so much smaller..
He maybe lose 1-2% hit or crit of 15-30%, but shouldn't drop under some minimal stats.
Maybe we should describe them in the beginning post, to.

Every shaman will need x% hit to keep up ur & flurry with two z speed weapons.
Every shaman will need y% crit to keep up ur & flurry with two z speed weapons.

Using x=15%, y=25% and z=2.6 while proofing this with any of the simulators should be enough.
Of course, the set aep might not be true for some data examples somewhere far away from this, like x=5%, y=50% and z=4.0 ..

edit: to your last post, you are saying the average aep aren't right because the people don't have the same average stats after farming karazhan? Of course, there will be differences. But i really doubt, for adding 2% crit and 100 ap from better gear your stats would change to something odd like

Haste Rating = 3.7
Strength = -4
Crit Rating = 7
Agility = 5
Hit Rating = 3
Attack Power = 24

All what happen is, that it might change to something like

Haste Rating = 2.3
Strength = 2.1
Crit Rating = 1.9
Agility = 1.7
Hit Rating = 1.6
Attack Power = 1.05

---

Lootzor could need some updates, i think. There's no season 2 gear listed except the shoulders and some items have still not updated their socket boni.
Because of the high value of some leather helmet's (ignoring the far better agi/critdmg meta gem) and the fel leather gloves, i started valueing stamina a little bit, too.
You won't want to play with raidbuffed 8.000 hp at trash or other bosses than ebonroc, so it's not that important.. ->

lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character

(assuming bok and using the exactly numbers for hit & agi, no rounding issues).

You will notice, that allmost all good items still stay on top of the list, so it won't matter with your choices for t4+ gear.
#1489SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lolwhat?
Originally Posted by Kaubel View Post
Dude, just edit your profile and stick in an armory link.
Like I said, I wasn't on a comp that could play wow and im not spec'd enhance atm so posting my armory wouldn't have done anything but linked my resto gear. I'll log out in my enhance gear when I log tonight though.
#1490SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Blackmoon
Hi guys, first of all i'd like to say thanks for the glut of helpful information here. I switched to enhancement about 2 weeks ago and am currently trying to gear up to be useful in raids, your compilation has helped immensely.

On to my question and i hope it hasn't already been asked (i've read as much as humanly possible, but didn't spot this specifically anywhere.

I'm currently using [Reflex Blades] Main hand, and am struggling to find anything offhand thats slower. My current off hand isn't showing on the armory, but its a 2.60 green axe (65.6dps if i remember right) and i'll be picking up the High Warlord axe this weekend, but even that is only 2.60.

Given the problems with fast OH, do i want to just ditch reflex blades altogether and grab another high warlord axe? its .10 speed diff but from what i'm reading it'll still gimp me badly.

How do the strike mechanics work for weapons with matching speeds? is having 2 2.60 speed weapons a problem for windfury or does the main hand weapon always take priority?
#1491SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
I actually don't understand the whole AEP discussion at all, we have several more or less valid models of shaman enh dps. Each and every model has a certain weighting towards one or more stats, my model is more fond of hitrating and hasterating than of critrating.

My current model rates the attributes at a 2.2k AP,22% hit, 25% crit gear for:
1CR = 1.18HR
1CR = 1.045Str (incl. BoK)
1CR = 0.794 HasteRating

Actually I don't know why anyone should care about AEP values for unbuffed non raid envionments, there is no reason to use AEP if you never have BoM, BoK, Battleshout and Elixir/Flask.

Now to the mathematical finer points of the whole discussion.
your attributes/stats are not linearly independent, +crit increases +ap to a certain degree and +haste (if you take flurry as a haste rating (which is a valid assumption)) etc, the only
stat which is practically independent of everything else is AP. Other than that I do agree that the calculated AEP values are only valid for a fairly small window.

To me it is kinda obvious that it is not possible to compare two individual items on your equipment based on AEP, it has to be obvious for me, otherwise writing my program would have been lost time
#1492SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Blackmoon View Post
Given the problems with fast OH, do i want to just ditch reflex blades altogether and grab another high warlord axe? its .10 speed diff but from what i'm reading it'll still gimp me badly.

How do the strike mechanics work for weapons with matching speeds? is having 2 2.60 speed weapons a problem for windfury or does the main hand weapon always take priority?
Keep your MH, a 2.6 OH is fine. You'll be able to pick up a 2.6 MH in KZ. With matching speed weapons the MH should swing first but there's some situations where it can get out of sync, but neither hand has a 'priority' for procs.
#1493SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Blackmoon
I assume you are referring to [Fool's Bane], which i must admit i'd not seen before
What i meant by priority was swing order from the start of an attack, rather than procs, as in both weapons don't strike simultaneously even if the speed is the same. If this is the case then MH would have the first chance to proc windfury, even though both are the same speed.

I assume? In either case thanks for your advice, i look forward to forcing my guild to fight Terestian (oh they are going to love that...).
#1494SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Blackmoon, [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] or [The Decapitator] are good weapons, too. So if your guild doesn't like Illhoof, go for one of them.

Regarding weapon swing order: When you start combat in melee range, the mainhand will always strike first.
#1495SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Blackmoon
Yeah i checked out the paw, and decided to go for the slower hitters if i could. Of course if it drops i can always adapt Plus it will make it easier to find a off hand thats slower...
hmm...
methinks you might have thrown a monkey in my carefully balanced plan.
#1496SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
# Crypt Fiends around Azeroth and at Hyjal Summit are now more totem friendly.
#1497SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Jelu
I'm thinking of rolling a Shaman but I'd like a little bit different gameplay from my Rogue so I'm wondering if 2-handers are viable for an Enh Shaman and what the spec might look like? I've tried searching a couple of times but never found anything, all the talk is about dual wielding and comments would be much appreciated.
#1498SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Disquette, Yo! et al - perhaps what we need are 3 (or more) sets of AEP that establish some baselines. ie, while leveling 1-70 with pretty minimal AP/Hit/Crit available, here's the AEP you need. For 70 normal/heroic/KZ instances, use these other values. Once you hit XYZ values of stats, roughly SSC/TK time frame, use these. After you've geared in SSC/TK and you're at the extreme top end of stats, now use these other AEP for Black Temple and Hyjal.

@Jelu - 2H is relegated to PvP for the most part, and even in PvP it may not be the clear winner anymore. DW is superior for PvE purposes. The days of shaman swinging big huge 2H's is pretty much over. It varies enough from a rogue either way.
#1499SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Severjanin
This is my first post so hi everyone.

@Blackmoon: I just started again in July and I've been 70 for about a month now gearing up so i feel I'm on the same level as you and my little advice is to get the level 60 High Warlord 2.9 speed weapon as it's still serving me since around lvl 64 .
Just yesterday I managed 735dps according to wws so it is indeed a more than viable weapon and above all very easy to get. I think it would out-damage the level 70 version assuming you get Battleshout in the raid.
It's so good I don't feel I'm working towards an upgrade in Runic Hammer but rather I'm working just to test if it's better.

On the Karazhan weapons, get what drops first. I was lucky enough to get the Paw almost as soon as I dinged 70 and it helped alot for farming and grinding to gear up (skill up leatherworking). To be honest, I don't really find much difference between the Paw and the Decapitator.
#1500SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Severjanin View Post
This is my first post so hi everyone.

@Blackmoon: I just started again in July and I've been 70 for about a month now gearing up so i feel I'm on the same level as you and my little advice is to get the level 60 High Warlord 2.9 speed weapon as it's still serving me since around lvl 64 .
Just yesterday I managed 735dps according to wws so it is indeed a more than viable weapon and above all very easy to get. I think it would out-damage the level 70 version assuming you get Battleshout in the raid.
It's so good I don't feel I'm working towards an upgrade in Runic Hammer but rather I'm working just to test if it's better.

On the Karazhan weapons, get what drops first. I was lucky enough to get the Paw almost as soon as I dinged 70 and it helped alot for farming and grinding to gear up (skill up leatherworking). To be honest, I don't really find much difference between the Paw and the Decapitator.
The use on the decapitator is fucking awesome and I wish we had a talent to throw our weapons. I use it on transitions and it was pretty fun for the 1 week I was using it in pvp.
#1576SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Morelis:

Did you use an alt to farm the mats for your tradeskills? Or did you buy it up off the AH? I'm currently enchanting and JCing *was mining*, but I've been itching to get the Dragonstrike and that leather shoulder pattern. Should I bother?
Post-nerf Dragonstrike is still pretty decent, the shoulders aren't worth it anymore though. I had mining on an alt for BS and when I decided to do LW I took skinning first and farmed everything I needed to get to 375 then dropped it to pick up LW.
#1577SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
panny
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Ok, i hadn't seen testing of the drakefist / dragonmaw proc before, and I'd always taken for granted they were right.

I just did testing to confirm/deny the 1.4 or 1.5 proc rate.

I used a blasted lands mob and tested for 1998 seconds, stormstike ever time it was up, windfury on both weapons. I did not have any other haste effects (procs, on use), and I have no passive haste gear.

I then paired up each "You gain haste" and "Haste fades from you" line, subtracting the first from the second (because you can rehaste while already hasted - it doesn't stack, but there's no internal cooldown). This gave me a total uptime, in time, not in terms of attacks.

Results:
Time in Combat 1998
Time in Haste 421
% uptime 26.6%
Base Haste Rating 212
Effective Avg Haste Rating 56.45

Is 33.3 min an acceptable amount? I don't know, but it is the only test I've seen so far. I'd love a link to the other tests if people can find it?

I suppose this doesn't say much about the base PPM, but using WF/Stormstrike and having the flurry talent is how we play, and I'd rather test for the actual uptime instead of trying to calculate it.
Another thing to consider is the fact that more haste/hit will give you a higher uptime on the buff. Particularly, the [Dragonspine Trophy] procs alot. However, the buff from the mace and the DST both have the same name ("haste"), so even with logs, you can't check exactly which is proccing. This makes the exact uptime in the optimal case difficult to test. Here's a comment about these items and the haste nerf.

As an aside, I've been swapping in and out my AP gear for my +hit gear, and my DPS has been fairly consistant across attempts, possibly due to the affect my procs are having. My guild isn't up to BT yet, so if a Shaman with both Dragonstrike/DST can test their damage on Teron with a +hit set and an AP set, I'd be fairly interested.

Last edited by panny : 08/19/07 at 9:20 PM.
#1578SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by forge View Post
I'm trying to keep something like 130-150 hit rating, aiming to keep 25% crit and going for 1500AP now after that going for more crit and more crit as it comes. I've been doing some testing on lowering my hit and so on but i'm not sure if it helps a lot or am i just gimping my stats by going all the wrong ways.

So, my current stats are:
AP 1463
Hit 123
Crit 26.04%

If i change my gear a bit i can go:
AP 1404
Hit 157
Crit 27.32%
Your best bet with any gear decision, provided your stats are well rounded (which they seem to be), is to simply do the AEP math and go with what's rated best. The AEP values are designed to eliminate guesswork.

Here's an example of where they're useful (excluding the complex dynamics of WF and SS, under the assumption that at this level they scale AP/HR & Crit the same as white damage). In your example here, you've essentially sacrificed about 4% of your absolute damage. In exchange, you're gaining 1.28% crit and 2.15% to hit, for a grand total of 3.43% more damage by chance. So you've nerfed yourself slightly. If you don't drink Major Agility, drop GoA or group with druids, you may need that extra 1.28% crit chance to keep up Flurry and Rage, and that may be worth a loss of .6%.

Get Pawn and Outfitter going and just compare your gear. It may be there's a real good combination in your bank already, just waiting to be discovered. I gained about 40 dps the first time I did this, re-equipping well rounded gear I otherwise might have sharded.
#1579SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I think a good target to aim for is 1500AP/150Hit/25% crit unbuffed, from there you can decide what you prefer and what you think is better for you.

There does not seem to be a right and wrong, If I drop more hit for AP, my DPS does not increase, likewise if I get more hit at the cost of AP my dps does not change.

My next target will be 1700AP/200Hit/30%Crit. The one thing that sticks out for me that people dont mention, is raid buffed stats, you cannot gain hit by any buff, so having a really low amount cannot be made up for with pots/flask or whatever.
#1580SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Hmm ok so I was testing this in 5-mans (Fist weapon MH and OH out of Arc/Bot)

It seems I get more DPS consistently using the WF/FB combo whereas the first post said WF in the OH will substantially have more DPS.

I'm not getting something behind the theorycraft behind the weapon imbues maybe?
#1581SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
An armory link would have been helpful, but I take from your post that you are using [Reflex Blades] and [Stormreaver Warblades]. If so, there's your mistake. Fast offhands "steal" the mainhand's WF procs and thus lower your overall damage.
#1582SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by drc View Post
An armory link would have been helpful, but I take from your post that you are using [Reflex Blades] and [Stormreaver Warblades]. If so, there's your mistake. Fast offhands "steal" the mainhand's WF procs and thus lower your overall damage.
Right. Which is why I use FB on my OH
#1583SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
The one thing that sticks out for me that people dont mention, is raid buffed stats, you cannot gain hit by any buff, so having a really low amount cannot be made up for with pots/flask or whatever.
Improved faerie fire can give you +3% hit on a target though.
#1584SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Usernaem View Post
Right. Which is why I use FB on my OH
In which case you have an entirely different set of problems that we need to discuss...


Click Here ← Click Here
Pro Tip: Don't use Frostbrand. Ever!
#1585SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Usernaem
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
In which case you have an entirely different set of problems that we need to discuss...
That's what I was asking, if someone could clarify something for me, because in all honesty...I'm not getting something.

I was NEVER into theorycrafting for Shamans until now.

Should I use WF/WF for Slow MH/Fast OH or Slow MH/Slow OH.

I don't know how to maximize DPS with certain weapons (Slow or Fast weapons) with certain weapon imbues.

Pre BC, it was easy. Grab a 2H (It's slow), put WF on. You're set.

So again, can anyone clarify what the best combos to use for certain weapon speeds?

I'm so confused atm.

Last edited by Usernaem : 08/20/07 at 7:21 AM.
#1586SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3scrub
I am really hoping that at level 80 an enchancement shaman will have more than 2-3 buttons to push, because at the moment I find shamans an incredibly boring class to DPS as.
#1587SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Usernaem View Post
So again, can anyone clarify what the best combos to use for certain weapon speeds?

I'm so confused atm.
It is all spelled out on the first post of the thread - slow/slow, WF/WF.
#1588SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
It is all spelled out on the first post of the thread - slow/slow, WF/WF.
And if I so happen to use Slow/Fast?
#1589SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Usernaem View Post
And if I so happen to use Slow/Fast?
WF/FT
#1590SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malevolencia View Post
Improved faerie fire can give you +3% hit on a target though.
What % of guilds use boomkins?

I dont know of any top guilds using them (not to say that they dont)
#1591SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
Originally Posted by Usernaem View Post
And if I so happen to use Slow/Fast?
Accept the fact that your numbers are going to be terrible I guess? I'm not really sure what you're looking for here, you're using a sub-optimal OH with a sub-optimal imbue on it, and you somehow expect it to work out for the better?

Last edited by Malan : 08/20/07 at 8:27 AM.
#1592SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Accept the fact that your numbers are going to be terrible I guess? I'm not really sure what you're looking for here, you're using a sub-optimal OH with a sub-optimal imbue on it, and you somehow expect it to work out for the better?
Not exactly, until I replace it.

I understand the fast OH will lower my DPS as compared to a slow OH.

I got that, thanks though.

I was asking which imbues would be best for what speed of weapons of OH.

You could of simply answered the question instead of trying to be a little bit rude about it. Thanks to the other guy btw for answering my question perfectly.
#1593SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
LiteSabre
A question to enhance shaman in endgame guilds: How much DPS do you normally put out?

A resto shammie I know recently respecced to enhance after we got Illidan down; he'd been gathering enhance loot on and off and wanted to try out being DPS. I tried to help him out as much as I could through this thread (he doesn't speak English), and we managed to whip his gear into a rough approximation of what I think might be normal. He is a bit low on hit though, but higher on crit than I think most enhance are. Dunno if the link will work, but here's the armory (dragonstrike/nathrezim instead of the 2hander, normally). Pants are Bow-stitched Leggings with +10 str in all 3 sockets. He hasn't gotten the totem of astral winds (is that right?) to drop yet.

Anyway, he was really pumped up, but he was only able to put out 600 to 700 DPS or so and got depressed when he compared himself to the other DPS, especially the elemental shaman who were putting out well in excess of 1200 DPS. I don't know if there's something he's doing wrong as I can't play for him, but I was wondering if there's some crucial something I'm missing and haven't told him. Is there some kind of secret DPS cycle that you guys use? :P

Last edited by LiteSabre : 08/20/07 at 9:15 AM.
#1594SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Enhance DPS is pretty dependent on group buffs - he needs to make sure he's getting BattleShout, maybe LotP, and definitely needs to be using consumables (food, pots). I can't read Korean so I can't comment much on his gear, but his AP/Crit/Hit totals seem to look ok - the only thing I'd question is that he seems to be wearing a Drake Fang Talisman? If so, replace that ASAP. There's no secret cycle, depends a lot on what fight you're saying he's getting that DPS on.
#1595SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Usernaem View Post
I understand the fast OH will lower my DPS as compared to a slow OH.

I got that, thanks though.

I was asking which imbues would be best for what speed of weapons of OH.

You could of simply answered the question instead of trying to be a little bit rude about it.
He was rude because the answer to your question is pretty much spelled out in the bumper post:

You will get better dps RIGHT NOW by dropping that fast OH and picking up a crummy green OH with 2.6 speed and putting WF on it. I can vouch for this, because I made that EXACT trade and saw a hefty boost.

If you insist on using a fast OH, by all means use WF/FT, but realize you're nerfing yourself. Hey, I think that weapon combo looks awesome too -- but it didn't help my raid much.
#1596SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3LiteSabre
The only party buff he gets is battle shout, and he uses major fortitude+major agility with the strength food.

Yeah, that's a DFT. I told him to scrap it but he insists that he needs it or he loses too much hit. Bah. I assume I'm not mistaken that a bloodlust brooch would be more effective than the talisman?

The fight in question was Anetheron, but he achieved similar numbers on Morogrim, Teron and Rage Winterchill. Basically near-tank'n'spank fights. The highest I ever saw him go was 730 or so.

The thing is, I (and most of our raid) was under the impression that enhance shaman were masters of 'winning the threat meter'. At least then it's be a question of threat cap and not of DPS. So when he wasn't even visible on the threat meter, it seemed to hit him pretty hard.

Oh, and another question: for weapons, he has access to one Merc. Gladiator's Cleaver, Syphon of the Nathrezim, Dragonstrike and an assortment of daggers/fast OHs that I promptly said no to after reading this thread. I'm assuming that the best possible combination would be MH Dragonstrike/OH Nathrezim; is that correct?
#1597SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
I understand why melee haste was changed. It was such a bargain that it was the preferred stat for almost every physical dps build.

That said, they did not perform an adjustment. It was outright nerfed it to hell. It appears that they more or less just decided to remove this mechanic from the game which is a shame because it was a good one in my opinion.
#1598SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
/edit: Nevermind, should refresh this page before replying.
#1599SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
I'd need some clarifications on the +hit value scaling with Crit / AP. I mean, we want to hit the +hit cap someday, when our AP and Crit is pretty high as well. But it's unclear what + hit to aim for depending on your overall gear level...

For a 1600 AP 30% crit, what's a healthy +hit
For a 2100 AP 36% crit, does the healthy +hit value increased in a linear way.
#1600SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Originally Posted by Iol View Post
I'd need some clarifications on the +hit value scaling with Crit / AP. I mean, we want to hit the +hit cap someday, when our AP and Crit is pretty high as well. But it's unclear what + hit to aim for depending on your overall gear level...

For a 1600 AP 30% crit, what's a healthy +hit
For a 2100 AP 36% crit, does the healthy +hit value increased in a linear way.
Without impractical sacrifices, the hit cap is unattainable for Shaman. Also if end game gear is assumed, I think it is really important to consider 'Ingores Armor.' This stat will never be modeled well but it applies to 90% of our damage same as Str/AP do and is reasonably priced.
#1651SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Anghren View Post
stuff about wf proc rate
April 17th...

WoW Forums -> WF Proc (same rank MH/OH) is still > 20%

I've done repeated tests, and going through the combatlogs, I was pretty much shocked to see that WF is actually proc'ing on about 34% of eligible hits.
This was back before I thought of EJ as my home board ;-)

Malan, I just checked through the initial post, doing a search for 34%, 35%, or 36%, and didn't see any mention. It might preempt a couple questions if you include something like:

Windfury Proc Rate: When you are wielding a two handed weapon, or are using a sword and shield, your chance to proc windfury on any landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is 20%. When you dual wield weapons, the chance on each landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is approximatedly 36%.
#1652SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
Yah that one slipped by me, I realized this morning we were missing that bit of info. I'll add it now.

@Drc - the 12 AP = 1DPS was proposed by Hedin, it was a result of simplifying the weapon damage formulas once Weapon Mastery was included. I removed it from the OP because it was a confusing issue. People thought it meant that every 12 AP meant their DPS should go up by 1, but the DPS was referring strictly to the weapon's physical damage per second.

Last edited by Malan : 08/21/07 at 10:21 AM.
#1653SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Your simulation apparently does not consider this to be a factor so your results are incomplete.
True, the sim covered percentage of WFs lost due to hidden cooldown with static speeds. Storm strike was added on top of normal swings.
No cross-interactions from items and abilities with ppm, on-use, flat % proc were modeled.
#1654SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
I wrote wf3sec, and now It is split in 3 - see my Signature.
Great, how do I move the melee frame around?
#1655SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Jelu
There's much talk about the [Dragonstrike] and this is obviously a fantastic Shaman weapon but I'm wondering if that with the haste nerf and the Orc bonus to axes if [Wicked Edge of the Planes] isn't the better weapon for Orc Shaman? I think there was a post about this previously but I can't seem to find it and I don't recall any corroboration to that assertion.
#1656SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
vorda
Originally Posted by Jelu View Post
There's much talk about the [Dragonstrike] and this is obviously a fantastic Shaman weapon but I'm wondering if that with the haste nerf and the Orc bonus to axes if [Wicked Edge of the Planes] isn't the better weapon for Orc Shaman? I think there was a post about this previously but I can't seem to find it and I don't recall any corroboration to that assertion.
Took me one search in this topic on 'orcs': Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

edit: and following posts. (obviously..)

Last edited by vorda : 08/21/07 at 12:48 PM.
#1657SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strygwyr
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
Took me one search in this topic on 'orcs': Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
that information is incorrect, it is based on Weapon skill value pre-nerf, if you read a little further down the thread that is linked in post you linked to.
The question at hand still remains, for an orc Shaman, would Dragonstrike or Wicked Edge of Planes be better? this question was not valid pre-haste nerf due to dragonstrike being much better, it is a valid question now though.

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I Post 1651 states Dragonstike at 98 AEP,


Wicked Edge of the Planes
Binds when picked up
UniqueMain Hand Axe
184 - 343 Damage Speed 2.70

(97.6 damage per second)
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Requires Master Axesmith
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 23.
Equip: Increases attack power by 48.


23 CR = 46 AEP
48 AP = 48 AEP

Wicked Edge of the Planes can be valued at 94 AEP, add the small benefit from +5 weapon skill, which I am almost sure exceeds 4 AEP, and it is a better weapon for orc shamans.
#1658SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Wicked Edge of the Planes can be valued at 94 AEP, add the small benefit from +5 weapon skill, which I am almost sure exceeds 4 AEP, and it is a better weapon for orc shamans.
Afaik, the haste AEP doesnt include factors such as trinkets without internal cooldowns and certain ppm's (like mongoose). (which obviously would be extremely hard)

I wonder how the comparison would be for someone with double mongoose and a dst.

On the other hand, we still dont know almost anything about the new values/effect of weapon skill, right?
#1659SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Normally I would test this myself, but it's maintenance day so I'll ask here instead:

Does FT calculate it's damage based on hasted or unhasted weapon speeds? I'm wondering in anticipation of the 2.3 talent changes.

I see: http://elitistjerks.com/298540-post81.html
Flametongue gets only 10% of spell damage with no modifier for weapon speed.
But that statement was made before people had the access to passive haste that they do now.
#1660SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
I'd suggest something closer to 2600-2700 ap, 35% crit (to approximate mongoose uptime, or lotp) 15-16% hit (around 100 rating) 8-10% haste (a few items + mongoose). It's been annoying me a bit lately that we keep referring back to baselines that just aren't very representative of good enhancement gear anymore.
To quote you, It's been annoying me a bit lately, that apparently people don't understand/read the previous pages of this thread. Asking for higher attack power won't change the factors much, since AP is comparison wise always the best attribute, since it is a fairly linear dps increase.

Lemme show you some other values:

1318.10645 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1327.6145
+1% hit: 1328.61462
+1% crit: 1333.174
+50 AP: 1335.03015


1360.20471 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 19% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1370.10718
+1% hit: 1370.75488
+1% crit: 1375.48389
+50 AP: 1377.67334

Obviously the values increase a bit (which is expected, since they influence values which are multplicative factors to the dps), obviously 15% +hit is not the ideal hit value, 19% +hit is closer to the ideal +hit value.

Strength with BoK is still the superior attribute, +crit following shortly behind and haste/hit having fairly identical values.
#1661SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strygwyr
I havent come accross any extensive research pertaining weapon skill for shamans.
im sure it functions the same as any other class but a specific AEP value for 1 weapon skill for a shaman hasnt been concluded.

As you said "the haste AEP doesnt include factors such as trinkets without internal cooldowns and certain ppm's (like mongoose). (which obviously would be extremely hard)".
If you were to Average the uptime of a Dragonstrike and set it to a "permanent" haste effect, it would equivalent to about 60-70 haste rating, in our terms for valueing gear, thats between 91.2-106.4 AEP.

You claim that there is addition value for haste because it increases procs and and trinkets ithout internal cooldowns, well so does crit due to flurry.
you could be extensive and say that theoritcaly with a 33% crit rate you would be in a constant flurry state due to 1 in every 3 attacks being a crit.

My point is that extensiver theorycrafting and tests have concluded these values for items based on how that stat increases our DPS, AP = 1 AEP, Crit = 2 AEP etc...
to say that the value someone assigned to haste rating on dragonstike is to say our AEP system is wrong, it may very well be wrong, but it is the system 90%~ of this thread is based on. I only find it fit to base these weapons on that same system.
#1662SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Strygwyr View Post
My point is that extensiver theorycrafting and tests have concluded these values for items based on how that stat increases our DPS, AP = 1 AEP, Crit = 2 AEP etc...
to say that the value someone assigned to haste rating on dragonstike is to say our AEP system is wrong, it may very well be wrong, but it is the system 90%~ of this thread is based on. I only find it fit to base these weapons on that same system.
Average AEP system is wrong. The deeper you go into theorycrafting the more you will realise this.
Here are AEP values for Tornhoof example few posts above (2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon):
1 AP = 1
1 Haste rating = 2.675
1 Hit rating = 1.965
1 Crit rating = 2.014

Compare it to the values from first page that people continue to use:
Haste Rating = 2.2
Crit Rating = 2
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1
#1663SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yo!, the values are not wrong they're just averages as you said. Being an average doesn't make it wrong. Flipping a coin 10 times produces an average of 5 heads, 5 tails. If you get 2 heads, 8 tails, that does not make the average wrong.

Tornhoof's values from a few posts ago was for a different model, he was modeling values in BT gear. The values on the front page were modeled from SSC/TK/KZ gear levels.
#1664SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yo!, the values are not wrong they're just averages as you said. Being an average doesn't make it wrong. Flipping a coin 10 times produces an average of 5 heads, 5 tails. If you get 2 heads, 8 tails, that does not make the average wrong.

Tornhoof's values from a few posts ago was for a different model, he was modeling values in BT gear. The values on the front page were modeled from SSC/TK/KZ gear levels.
The example with coins is wrong. You will not get average AEP values for the stat combo that Tornhoof posted no matter how many times you will flip a coin. SSC/TK/KZ gear levels is too wide, inside of that gear levels local AEP values are significantly different from average for most stat combos. For explanation and data proof refer to my previous posts.

Here is what should be written on first page instead of average AEP values:

"AEP is system that compares stats by assigning value to each stat that shows how much DPS will increase by increasing your stat by 1. Please notice that AEP values are not stable and may vary a lot from one stat combination to another . To get AEP values for your current/desired gear - use sim. Here is a list of stat combos with their corresponding AEP values:
Tier 4 -
Tier 5 -
Tier 6 -
Crafted with haste -
etc...
AEP system's use is further limited by non-linear cross-dependance of stats. If you to make a choice between 2 gear upgrades that benefit several stats the one better in-game may be different from the one suggested by AEP. For better grounded choice - use sim. Using average AEP values is no better than using built-in-game AEP system called "item level". "
#1665SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sharmania
Originally Posted by Strygwyr View Post
that information is incorrect, it is based on Weapon skill value pre-nerf, if you read a little further down the thread that is linked in post you linked to.
The question at hand still remains, for an orc Shaman, would Dragonstrike or Wicked Edge of Planes be better? this question was not valid pre-haste nerf due to dragonstrike being much better, it is a valid question now though.
No, unless you will do the testing and prove the blue wrong, i will take his word on it seeing as noone else can provide some info on it.
I value axes at around 30AEP atleast, so i'd take Wicked Edge over Dragonstrike any time.
#1666SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Afaik the +haste value was pre 2.1 too (not sure though)
#1667SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
To quote you, It's been annoying me a bit lately, that apparently people don't understand/read the previous pages of this thread. Asking for higher attack power won't change the factors much, since AP is comparison wise always the best attribute, since it is a fairly linear dps increase.

Lemme show you some other values:

1318.10645 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1327.6145
+1% hit: 1328.61462
+1% crit: 1333.174
+50 AP: 1335.03015


1360.20471 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 19% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1370.10718
+1% hit: 1370.75488
+1% crit: 1375.48389
+50 AP: 1377.67334

Obviously the values increase a bit (which is expected, since they influence values which are multplicative factors to the dps), obviously 15% +hit is not the ideal hit value, 19% +hit is closer to the ideal +hit value.

Strength with BoK is still the superior attribute, +crit following shortly behind and haste/hit having fairly identical values.
Wouldn't it make more sense to use an equal amount of item budget as the increasing factor? As it stands there you have them lined up in the order of how much you spent on the difference, which really isn't very meaningful. By the way I wasn't suggesting that just AP be increased, I was suggesting that the baseline stats be modified to match what a shaman in T6ish gear will have, I'm sure you can see the relevance of that. Also, plugging the updated stats into Pater's sim does produce changes worth noting, if your model doesn't then we can assume one of them has gone astray.
#1668SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Aurvandil
2 Questions

1. I'm an enchanter and I almost have access to the +4 stats to ring, would that be better to use than +2 weapon damage?

-I figure the +4 stats is worth 4 agi * 2 + 4 str * 2.2 = 16.8 AEP, but also gives the modest benifit of the other stats being boosted

-obviously the +2 weapon damage will depend on your weapon speed. I use 2 2.6 speed, but when you count in dual mongoose, dragonspine, and 73 passive haste(6.94%) the speed becomes much lower. With just flurry and passive haste my weapon speed is 1.84

-it appears that on the character sheet it shows the +2 weapon damage being applied to both hands, and isn't affected by the offhand penalty.

-given the above, +2 weapon damage should be +2 weapon damage * 2 weapons / 1.87 speed = 2.139 dps

+2 weapon damage > +4 stats

2. WorldofRaids says that on the PTR haste for melee has changed from 10.5 haste rating per 1% to 15.7 haste rating per 1%. What would be the new AEP value of haste?
-On my pawn string I had haste rated at 2
-I noticed the link in this thread rating it at 2.22
-so the new rating would be (10.5 / 15.7) * old rating right? so 1.48 if its rated at 2.22, 1.33 with my rating of 2(though I'm probably going to change that.

can someone check my math on this? am I calculating #1 and #2 correctly?

Last edited by Aurvandil : 08/21/07 at 5:10 PM.
#1669SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Yo already rewrote my DPS values into AEP, I prefer DPS values over AEP because you can convert them to whatever equivalency model you like and especially compare them to other results from other models.

My model probably overrates +haste a bit.
#1670SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Aurvandil
fine

Last edited by Aurvandil : 08/22/07 at 2:07 AM.
#1671SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Aurvandil View Post
Oh yeah I have a 3rd question, at blizzcon...
Edit: I'm an asshole.. Sorry.
#1672SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Aurvandil View Post
Another benifit of the 1 second off your shock cooldown is that you should never run(not counting lag) run into the problem of having both your shock cooldown and stormstrike cooldown up at the same time.(currently when this happens, we stormstrike which triggers the gcd and wastes 1.5 seconds of our shock timer), but technicly if the shocks were on a 5 second cooldown it should never overlap?

They will overlap more often of course
#1673SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yo, if you provide the values for some reasonable AEP steps, I'll gladly put them in a table on the first post. I'm hesitant to label them as "T4, T5, T6" etc, as that puts arbitrary limits on gear to an unexperienced shaman reading the values. (ie, they might discard huge upgrades from lower lvl zones because its not in their "tier") I think a more reasonable way of doing it is describing it in reasonable steps of AP/Crit/Hit. So a lvl 70 entry-level shaman would have X AP, a mid-level shaman would have X+A AP, and a high-level shaman would have X+B AP, etc etc.

To throw some random numbers out there, we might as an example say that an entry lvl should have 1000 AP, 20% Crit, 12% Hit, a mid level might have 2000 AP, 26% Crit, 17% Hit, so on and so forth.
#1674SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
To throw some random numbers out there, we might as an example say that an entry lvl should have 1000 AP, 20% Crit, 12% Hit, a mid level might have 2000 AP, 26% Crit, 17% Hit, so on and so forth.
Assuming, but should be stated, these would be Buffed Values?
#1675SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
I'd say, without hard numbers to back it up, going for elemental shock talents is probably worth it until about halfway through SSC in progression. At that point your melee damage will be scaling fairly rapidly. You also get far more benefits from things like increased totem range and quicker ankhs around that point with larger/longer fights.

The elemental talents are good, but currently do not scale at all with gear. So after a certain point, your elemental damage won't be scaling along with the extra damage the 3% hit gives you.
#1036SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
It's realy helpfull to have SS cooldown next to WF cooldown when you DPS in raids and I love It more and more...
It's all about playstyle. Personally I have all my cooldown-abilities on a bar (SS, Trinkets, SR, BL etc) with a cooldowncounter addon. I liked your addon due to the WF cooldown bar, most of the other things just cludder up my screen, and in the version I was using (at work for two weeks now) I couldnt move the buff bars in-game which was annoying. As Malan says, the other things are most likely covered by some other addon that's already in the game.

Let's get back on the topic of the thread though. Has anyone checked the 12.5AP = 1DPS by swapping out something with 6str or 12 AP to see the ~1DPS difference, (I'm at work as stated, can't check myself, sadly) or is this just speculation? Shouldn't it be easy to verify this, or am I missing something?

That weapon skill topic confuses the hell out of me. Meh.
#1037SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Hedin the Stormstrike cooldown bar is triggering whenever I cast Water Shield.
#1038SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
That weapon skill topic confuses the hell out of me. Meh.
Well cause it did bothers me a lot too.
I did read thru that rogue/warrior weapon skill thread, which is why it bothers me a lot esp when i'm a tauren shaman with only 350 weapon skill instead of an orc shaman who has innately better weapon skill on axe.

That belt i mentioned before, will increase mace weapon skill by ard 6.3 point, which will put you as if you are attacking a level 72 mob if it's a boss, resulting in a huge boost on dps as it is the first 5 point of weapon skill. And as far as i know that first 5 weapon skill point really worth a lot. But when we are trying to factor in that first 5 point, how would each point worth compare to AP/crit/Str etc?

And if it really improve the hit rate just like rogue/war, i would see that this belt from vashj is even better than boneweaver girdle.
Just my thought, still pushing my guild at morogrim then vashj thou :S
#1039SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Hedin the Stormstrike cooldown bar is triggering whenever I cast Water Shield.
Yep, it's because of the Global Cooldown (1.5 sec) after each spellcast :-)
#1040SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gulvan
I dont want this to seem like a "hey im new tell me what i should do post", but after reading the theory craft I am really interested in the syphon. I would have been able to pick it up when it dropped for us, but I thought that it wouldnt be a good replacement for rising tide or my dragonstrike. However if it drops again, im going to grab it and do some tests on it as a OH and MH.

Also, I have a armor penetration neck. I used to have the pendent of the perliess, but i have seen my dps increase with the new neck on some hits it has increase by 50-150 dmg. Now I dont know what the other raid factors where like sunders expose etc. But I have seen my dps increase overtime by a noticeable margin. Just like to share my experience(sorry no raw numbers).
#1041SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Gorlek
There is some amazing new info for Enhancement straight from Blizzcon (I almost wet my pants when reading these!!!). Note that none of this is official, so don't take it to the bank, just yet.



1. Two-handed weapons appears to be trainable, and its old talent slot has been replaced by:

"Shamanistic Focus (one point)
After landing a melee critical strike, you enter a focused state. The focused state reduces the mana cost of your next Shock spell by 60%."

DSC00104.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

DSC00112.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting



2. Mental Quickness has been changed to read

"Reduces the mana cost of your next instant cast spell by 6% and increases your spell damage and healing by an amount equal to 30% of your attack power."

DSC00106.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting



3. Spirit weapons now reduces threat by 20%, up from 15%.

Screenshot was too blurry on this one.



4. For you PvP Shaman, I saved the best for last:

"Shamanistic Rage (1 point)

Reduces all damage taken by 30% and gives your successful melee attacks a chance to generate mana equal to 15% of your attack power. Lasts 30 secs."

DSC00105.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting








If all this is true and is coming soon, I am extremely excited to see the outcomes!!!! A fully raid-buffed enhancement Shaman should see anywhere from 600-1000 +dmg, making those previously non-scaling shocks hit significantly harder (and they will be much cheaper, to boot!!!)


For the pvp scene (and in many, many raid scenarios), the change to Shamanistic Rage will be pure awesome insanity, much like Rogues popping Evasion and Cloak of Shadows.



With all the added spell damage, we could be looking at a total change to Enhancement raiding mechanics. Where dual WF slow/slow was king, Flametongue and Frostbrand might be making an exciting comeback, allowing us to not be pigeonholed into extremely slow weapon choices!!! Healing stream and searing totem will also be much more powerful, perhaps making many of us switch over to Elemental for our off-talents for the extra shock and fire totem ownage.

Last edited by Gorlek : 08/04/07 at 6:20 AM. Reason: Needed to tidy things up a bit
#1042SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Wow. I didn't expect anything close to those changes.
#1043SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
I want them!!! I want them NOW, not in the middle of the Winter :-(
Rage buff was expected, but we still don't have a CC or antiCC...

WF3sec update:
- MeleeFrame and MeleeBuffs deleted
- Added Shocks and Rage cooldown timers
- You can now toggle all cooldowns by /wf3sec cmd.
#1044SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Capital
With grounding totem and eartshock I'd say we are the kings of anti-cc. Not to mention we kite better than any hunter.
#1045SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Well those changes are definitely interesting looking. Shows some promise.

I'd be interested to see how much it effects Frostbrand and Flametongue and if its enough for us to start using it over Windfury. For some reason I doubt it.
#1046SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Capital View Post
With grounding totem and eartshock I'd say we are the kings of anti-cc.
Say that to rogues :-)
#1047SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xaro
Originally Posted by Teirz View Post
But when we are trying to factor in that first 5 point, how would each point worth compare to AP/crit/Str etc?
Here is something from my guild forums.

So in terms of reducing the miss chance, this is how much HR and WSR is needed to achieve the same result in relation to each other.

Weapon Skill <='+5'
3.9 WSR = 9.48 HR

Weapon Skill >'+5'
3.9 WSR = 1.58 HR

If you consider dodges just as bad as misses then it would come down to.

Weapon Skill <='+5'
3.9 WSR = 10.744 HR

Weapon Skill >'+5'
3.9 WSR = 2.844 HR

Now you should also consider that WSR also increases your critical strike chance and reduces the parry rate. Giving WSR even more value then I have written so far.
I know it doesn't quite answer your question entirely and I can't really vouch for how accurate this is either. But, I believe it to be good information anyway.
#1048SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Wow those changes are amazing. o.O
By just swapping weapon an enh shaman can get to 1.2k healing with that buff!

Thanks Xaro for the info, which is quite align with my thoughts .
And yes i would consider dodged is as bad as miss. As it doesn't only affect your white dps, WF can also be dodged and parried etc. By raising your weapon skill, each AP will worth even more value compare to other stats.

Hope that i can get the belt soon and test it out.
#1049SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Wow. I didn't expect anything close to those changes.
My thoughts exactly.
#1050SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
It will be very interesting to see if flametongue is now a viable offhand enchant. maybe I'll update the mod.

I would use flameshock on crits, but never earth shock (still need to provide the earthstrike bonus to the elemental shammies). However, in pvp, the reduced mana and up'd dps from shocks will be really nice.

Shamanistic rage... I'm not sure about when you'd use it? Maybe during an earthquake from doomwalker, aoe dmg mobs, or other predictable damage source?

I'm very happy with these updates, but i'd love them now instead of later. Perhaps I should have grabbed a karazan dagger :-)
#1751SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
xereva
I'm just starting kara (and am not visiting it that often, since i'm more a casual player), but my unbuffed stats are now (and only using one kara item, [Big Bad Wolf's Paw]):
1248 AP
218 hit rating
26.15% crit

I think i don't have very much pre-kara upgrades available, maybe a few heroic items and something like the trinket buyable by badges... (or pvp gear, but not pvp-ing)

Oh, and even while not really raiding, i really love this thread. It's helping me a lot! Helps me to decide which item i want to upgrade, and how to maximize dps.

Last edited by xereva : 08/23/07 at 3:26 AM.
#1752SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Aikillju
Flametongue and Frostbrand

Just curious, but has there been any discussion about using flametongue or frostbrand in the offhand over windfury after 2.3?

I'd imagine since they're adding a talent to increase spell damage by 30% of our Attack Power that those two imbues might have some sort of potential for enhancement? I'm not sure myself since i don't know the numbers behind how the enchants would scale and match up with the spell damage we would have, and of course compare to windfury imbued on the OH.

So, anyone looked into it?

Last edited by Aikillju : 08/23/07 at 3:51 AM. Reason: Fixed a spelling mistake
#1753SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Please search the thread before posting your questions. What you are asking has been discussed semi-recently.
#1754SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aikillju
Ah, my mistake ... will do
#1755SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Aurvandil View Post
I think the BT/Hyjal endgame values are unattainable, but the rest look close. A lot of the gain in stats has been due to procs. IE dragonspine, ashtongue, and eventually hyjal melee ring.

Off the top of my head rounded up to 50 ap/1% crit,hit,haste

->Kara I had 1250 ap/200 hit/22% crit/0% haste
->SSC/TK 1400 ap/200 hit/25% crit/0% haste and dragonspine trophy
->Now I have 1500 ap/ 200 hit/ 29% crit/7% haste and dragonspine + ashtonge trinket procs
->If I got everything I wanted right now 1600 ap/180 hit/30% crit/10% haste and dragonspine + ashtonge + hyjal exalted ring procs
Unbuffed im sat at 1622/161/~30%/5.90% Haste

If I was to get the items i'm after, I would sacrifice all the haste items (pending nerf) in favour of the increased stats on other items. I did not consider the haste when I wrote the values you quoted.

Choker of Endless Nightmares - Items - World of Warcraft
Stormrage Signet Ring - Items - World of Warcraft
Band of the Eternal Champion - Items - World of Warcraft
Madness of the Betrayer - Items - World of Warcraft

I think this would give me a gain of 80AP, 61Hit, 18 Crit and I would lose 5.9% Haste.

1702/222/31%Crit, In the next patch the haste I would lose is actually only ~4%

Probably a couple of mistakes in there, but I dont have time to check it right now.

Last edited by Stigmata : 08/23/07 at 4:50 AM.
#1756SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by panny View Post
Doesn't that kind of suggest that +hit would be undervalued by your sim then?
Well no, apparently you don't miss the blastend lands mobs with around 15-16% hit anymore, so the value of +hit can not be evaluated on these mobs. On the other hand, since you usually attack from the front, the attacktable gets parry, which isn't handled in my model at all. Since I still get parries once in awhile, these aren't fully mitigated (if at all) by weaponskill, my crit chance does not increase much (if at all), dodge gets reduced.
I think parry&dodge combined are around 5% for this mob, so with my original 19% +hit gear i still miss 5% of my swings (ignoring the parry speedup). This is atleast 5% less than against a lvl 73 mob from behind (5% miss from dw atleast + 5% from dodge).

I think it should be higher than 5% on the blasted lands mobs tbh, but they might have more armor than a sundered boss mob.

For real boss mob action, I would always remove another 10-15% from the output of my model (besides the 15% armor already accounted for) to cover for totem twisting, movement etc. That does not affect attribute comparisons with AEP or similar methods though.
#1757SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Please search the thread before posting your questions. What you are asking has been discussed semi-recently.

Or you could flat out just tell him the answer he's looking for.
#1758SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Usernaem View Post
Or you could flat out just tell him the answer he's looking for.

If you are reading this for the first time, please read the entire first post before posting questions. Almost every question that's been asked recently has been answered in this post. Nobody here has any interest in perusing your armory and two dozen WWS parses just to tell you the same information that is posted below.
and from the forum rules for you:
Don't troll. - If all you're doing is trying to irk someone's taters, you're going to get banned lickety split. Trust me.
Infraction for Usernaem: Useless Post

edit: has anyone checked if the ashtongue trinket is still working the same on PTR as it does on live now?
#1759SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Tristan
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Yep. Well, kind of. We know that the values are raised to the power of 1.5 when calculating item level. So using that theory we could say 20 STR would be 2^1.5 = 2.8 times as valuable as 10 STR. We know that's not the case, so we should be careful in using this information to determine values for items or stats. These figures are what Blizzard thinks the relative values of these stats should be across all classes, but not what they actually are across any one specific class/spec combination.
The formula is according to Formulas:Item Values - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki that you say are confirmed by blizz:
Values are multiplied by the stat mod and taken to the 1.5 power.
These new values are summed up and taken to the (2/3) power.

ItemValue = [(StatValue[1]*StatMod[1])^1.5 + (StatValue[2]*StatMod[2])^1.5 + ...]^1/1.5

Lua code you can execute and test
local STR = { value = 10, mod = 1 };
print( math.pow(math.pow((STR.value*STR.mod), 1.5), (2/3)) ); -- 10
STR.value = 20;
print( math.pow(math.pow((STR.value*STR.mod), 1.5), (2/3)) ); -- 20
Edit: Removed C# escape codes and replaced them with lua escape codes, soz

Last edited by Tristan : 08/23/07 at 8:09 AM.
#1760SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tonkan
TK/SSC/BT gear

Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Guestimates:
Kara 1300/75Hit/20%Crit/0% Haste
SSC/TK 1400/120Hit/24%Crit/0%Haste
BT/Hyjal 1500/150Hit/26%Crit/5% Haste
BT/Hyjal endgame 1700/200Hit/30%Crit/10%Haste


I find the values for entry level BT/Hyjal to be kinda low actually, for unbuffed stats.
My guild have 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK, and I'm already at 1520AP, 29.16% Crit and 223 Hit rating. And I still have some uppgrades to get from those instances aswell :P

So my estimates for BT/Hyjal entry would be like 1600/30/200, or something similiar, but without the haste.

Oh, and this is a really informative thread, so please, continue with all the good work, so that everyone that doesent have your impressive skills in math / programming can atleast get a little more understanding on how everything works.
#1761SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Blah. We're at the point that I can only remove text from the OP in order to add new stuff. =\
#1762SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Tonkan View Post
I find the values for entry level BT/Hyjal to be kinda low actually, for unbuffed stats.
My guild have 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK, and I'm already at 1520AP, 29.16% Crit and 223 Hit rating. And I still have some uppgrades to get from those instances aswell :P

So my estimates for BT/Hyjal entry would be like 1600/30/200, or something similiar, but without the haste.

Oh, and this is a really informative thread, so please, continue with all the good work, so that everyone that doesent have your impressive skills in math / programming can atleast get a little more understanding on how everything works.

Like I said, they were guesses from memory of roughly what I had.

I also never picked up any T5, you have all the items from SSC/TK I never got, baring in mind we did so few clears (I think I have been to 3 Kaelthas kills and missed maybe 2 or 3) before entering BT/Hyjal. And you mention you have no haste, but haste is high on the item budget, so 5% haste would decrease your other stats by a considerable amount.

One other thing to note, you have very low HP, when I was at your level I valued stam quite high, and rightfully so in my opinion.

Even fully raid buffed you have what, about 8.5-9.0k?

On our first venture into BT i had 10.4k which is very useful for Najentus amongst other things.

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Blah. We're at the point that I can only remove text from the OP in order to add new stuff. =\
Like I suggested earlier in this thread, ask one of the mods to add a single post directly below the first or create a new topic then get them to merge the post in there.

Its definitely possible in some forums so I cant see why it wouldn't be in this one.
#1763SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yah I'll ask Boe about it. The Wiki is going to be a bit slower of a project than I initially expected, I had been holding off to see if I could just convert this into a full article.

We've added over 20 pages of discussion in the last 2 weeks, this is getting hard to find things. I wish this forum had a 'tag' mechanism so I could tag posts that I needed to reference later.
#1764SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I often think that when someone asks a question and is refered to read somewhere between page 50-65, sucks to be so vague.
#1765SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I've turned on the GoogleNotebook firefox plugin in the meantime and I'm going to start collecting important posts in it. Then I can whip it out when someone says something stupid.
#1766SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gremm
Hi,

I don't know if this thread is still alive and under discussion but I think the following is wrong:

MainHand Damage
(<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110%
MainHand WF
(<Weapon Damage>+(AP+WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110%*140%

OffHand Damage
(<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2*110%
OffHand WF 2.1 patch
((<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2+(WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>))*110%*140%
Correct me if I am wrong but I think the 140% comes from the WindFury 20% proc statistics: in average, we need 5 strikes to proc the WF which gives 2 free additional strikes, so by average its (5 + 2)/5 = 1.4 = 140%

This is correct for the average number of strike but not for the damage calculation. Indeed only the two addtional stikes benefit from the WF attack power bonus. So the correct formula should be :

MainHand WF =
MainHand Damage + (<Weapon Damage>+(AP+WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110% *40%

The same goes for the off hand
#1767SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
berg
Nope. Contratry to what you would expect the improved wf talent in the enhance tree improves the overall damage of wf swings by 40%, not the AP contribution.

This is why you will notice that your maximum wf crit is far in excess of your maximum white crit, much more than the AP could provide. I wf crit one of those little channeler guys on akama last night for 3180 and I had an agi pot, not an ap flask. Such a number is nowhere near attainable without that 40% modifier.


I am sure this talent is a bug. I mean wf is roughly 35% of my damage on most bosses so those 3 talent points are each worth almost 5% of my overall dps which is far too powerful.

Just like dual windfury procing ~35% is doubtlessly a bug.

The entire shaman combat system is a complete mess. The problem is that the whole thing was balanced with these bugs in place. If the bugs get fixed the whole thing collapses.

Last edited by berg : 08/23/07 at 10:08 AM.
#1768SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Gremm View Post
Hi,

I don't know if this thread is still alive and under discussion
This is somewhat amusing since my post above yours was made at 9:22 EST today
#1769SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Tonkan
Hmm, regarding my HP:pool, I actually have roughly 9.3k fully raidbuffed, and I can always use Major fort and STA food aswell to boost it to 9750:ish. Though I never do it, since I find 9.3k to be sufficient for atleast SSC and TK.

I dont really know anything about the HP requirements in Hyjal / BT though, so when I get there, I might have to exchange a couple of gems / pieces of eq I guess

And well, yes, I know you had 5% haste on your Hyjal / BT entry level, but with the incoming haste nerf, I dont really think it's worth to go for the random pieces with passive haste anymore. That's why I calculated my entrylevel withouth any haste at all.
Although I might be wrong XD I'm kinda blindly following the AEP values atm, which will put haste to roughly the same lvl as Hit Rating, which is the least valuable / ItemLevel for us, so to say.
And I know that the AEP points given in the beginning of this thread are supposed to be used for a bit less geared shamans than myself, but I still find them to atleast show me some items which are clear uppgrades.
Though I might miss better uppgrades due to not modifying my values

Last edited by Tonkan : 08/23/07 at 10:50 AM.
#1770SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I didn't realise that buffs increased HP by that much.
#1771SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Stigmata's Guestimates:
Kara 1300/75Hit/20%Crit/0% Haste
SSC/TK 1400/120Hit/24%Crit/0%Haste

I'm currently 2/5 SSC in progression and I clock at 1150ish AP, 109 Hit, 26ish% crit, unbuffed. I can trade 40ish AP for 2% haste (Crystalweave Cape and a switch of gloves.) Are these Guestimates what you had during those tiers of progressions... or values to be aimed at?
#1772SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Raigore
BS: Axe spec, and the 2.7/2.6 combo

Hi there, this was just to ask about 2 questions, first:

Is it worth using a Planar Edge/BPE MH along with a Glad 2.6 OH? Or should I just aim for a decapitator until I get a Syphon?

Then, Is Dragonmaw really the best option? Should I ''respec my BS'' to maces to do it now? or is the axe way still a doable way?

Thanks in advance
#1773SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Dragonmaw is very good and I am quite jealous of those who have it.

Also from above Stig made a point that I think was lost. Since Hyjal and BT were released I think you will find very few people who really come close to a full T5 level set.

It does not make much sense, but Kael really is the most challenging encounter in the game. Any guild that can kill Kael will kill Illidan and there is really no reason to hang out in SSC and TK once Hyjal and BT are available. I think we have done 3 Kael kills and then never went back.
#1774SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tonkan
Oh, if he meant that, then yes, it went completely over my head. "blush" :P
#1775SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Khatib
K... this might be covered somewhere in here, but this thread is so deep I'm not seeing it.

I know this *isn't* optimal... but I need advice on what to enchant a 2H with.

I'm using Gorehowl right now for dps, and don't know which enchant would be best for it... Should I pony up for mongoose, or just throw savagery on it for cheap since it's a 2hander?


Basically our guild's geared enh shaman transferred out to join RL friends, so I stepped onto an old unused character to fill the gap. The char only had lvl 60 HWL axes for weapons. I have yet to get a MH drop... and OH availability is just a joke.. We clear Kara, Gruul, Void Reaver, and are under 10% on Lurker, he'll prolly go down this week... But yeah, my weapon choices are middlin.. I have a few weeks to go before I get an arena offhand, and maybe another week or two til I get a better MH even. So I'm just going to use Gorehowl as filler, and then for PvP situations on into the future.

What's the best way to go for this enchant? Is mongoose worth it in an arena situation? Or should I just save my money and go with savagery, and save Mongoose cash/mats for my DW weapons?

And is Gorehowl really a bad filler option? I don't see how it couldn't be better than weak DW weapons... but I haven't had a chance to raid with it since I picked it up.

Last edited by Khatib : 08/23/07 at 11:31 AM.
#1801SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
From WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes



Guess it's official now, I don't feel like I got fucked at all.
This was posted on page 69 already. ( http://elitistjerks.com/456866-post1689.html )
#1802SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Toots Hepcat
I agree -- stop trying to convince the guy that WF is better.

Instead, put him in a group with hunters, druids, poison rogues and warriors who still use sharpening stones, where he can do no harm.

Ignoring AP for a second, Windfury is an extra 20% to white melee damage. GoA is at maximum + 3% to all melee damage. Windfury is therefore always better than GoA when white damage is more than 15% of total melee damage.

In groups, assuming everybody's dps is equal and white damage accounts for at least 40% of overall damage, Windfury is superior if only two members pick up the buff off it.
#1803SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
This was posted on page 69 already. ( http://elitistjerks.com/456866-post1689.html )
Sorry I guess I missed it, doesn't seems there's been much outcry though so I guess no one is concerned. Apparently the key to good nerfs is getting them in while they only affect a minority of the playerbase.
#1804SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kaay
Well hes still very reluctant to give us it. I think its time to give up theres no chaging his mind.
#1805SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Hedin
Was thinking about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] it gives 120ap and 80spd with full stacks, will it be good using this trinket after 2.3 buff with a fast OH+FT?
(120ap*30%+80spd)*10%=+11,6 fire damage before COE+Scorch+Spriest and (maybe) Elemental Weapons.

Does FT proc this trinket?

__________________
Hed Military EU-Stonemaul - Draenei Shaman 70lvl 0-46-15
Unbuffed
AP 1672
Crit 30,92%
Hit 20,29%
Haste 1,71%
I Sense Demons.

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.

Last edited by Hedin : 08/24/07 at 4:23 AM.
#1806SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
Was thinking about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] it gives 120ap and 80spd with full stacks, will it be good using this trinket after 2.3 buff with a fast OH+FT?
(120ap*30%+80spd)/10=+11,6 fire damage before COE+Scorch+Spriest and (maybe) Elemental Weapons.

Does FT proc this trinket?
I can't figure out why you are dividing by 10, but I think that it's 43% of 116 = 49.88x1.1(coe)x1.15(scorch)x1.05(misery)x1.15(elemental weapon) giving you 76.191 extra damage per hit with full crusade stacks.
#1807SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I can't figure out why you are dividing by 10, but I think that it's 43% of 116 = 49.88x1.1(coe)x1.15(scorch)x1.05(misery)x1.15(elemental weapon) giving you 76.191 extra damage per hit with full crusade stacks.
It's because only 10% +spd goes to FT :-)
And I didn't count all the buffs...

__________________
Hed Military EU-Stonemaul - Draenei Shaman 70lvl 0-46-15
Unbuffed
AP 1672
Crit 30,92%
Hit 20,29%
Haste 1,71%
I Sense Demons.

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.
#1808SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
It's because only 10% +spd goes to FT :-)
And I didn't count all the buffs...
Wow, that's a pretty weak coefficient; I had assumed it was 43% like the other instant spells.
#1809SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tshonka
Hello,

my first post here.
Thanks you very much for the info in this thread, it rules.
It is good reading material in the morning here at work and it really helped improve my performance.

I have some questions (and yes i have read the previous 70 pages)

1) does tranquility stack with salvationi. I ask this because on some fights our dps warrior has problems. I dont think they do but i want conformation of smarter people .

2) does totemtwisting improve your own dps also? And by how much it increases it the dps of the others if you dont totem twist.
Our group setup is a pve dualwielding fury warrior, 2 (or 3) swords rogues, and sometimes one feral druid.

3) my own performance should improve I heard. We run with 2 enhance shamans, one in MT group and one in melee group. Normally i go in the melee group and try to improve the dps of our group to the max. For me this is the most important. Therre are some complaints though that my own dps is not as high as the other enhance shaman.
He is a bit better geared but I think it has to do with our task though.
So this is my armory link The Armory can you give me some good tips.
This are our wow web stats overview Wow Web Stats.

I know my trinket is not that good but i hope to get the hourglass and the bloodlust brooch this weekend (bloody things never drop and I made a mistake in heroic badges once).
I hope to get the tsunami talisman soon also.
Good boots seems to have dissappeared in the loottables when I am arround but i keep clearing KZ every week for it .

Normally i use SS when i can (trying not to be in the wf cooldown, thanks for the maker of this addon ), and a rotation of Flame shock and earth shock.
My SS is used up last runs by our elemental shaman.

Our guild has killed 3 bosses in SSC and 2 in the Eye. Loot in our tier 5 instances has been poo and i have loads of dkp to spend (if something usefull would drop)

Any other tips to cycles, gear or other stuff. Should i play more "egocentric" to upper my dps?

4) is the trinket for alchemy any good for us? Did not see it in the thread and i am not sure.
For me it helps when using mana pots on fights where shamanstic rage is difficult to use.
What would be the value of it comparing to other trinkets. Should i keep using it?

5) we have lots of theocrafting how much dps a shaman brings to a melee group but i did not see any theocrafting how much a enhancement shaman brings to threat.
In the MT group we have a prot warrior, a feral druid, an enhancement shaman and then 2 out of a resto druid, prot pala, affliction warlock.
How much extra threat and dps he brings in that group. We ran a farmrun yesterday to gruul without a shaman in the MT group and i heard people complain that threat was much lower.
So any theocrafting on this one?

Already thanks for my difficult questions and keep up the good work Malan and the others.

__________________
"Emocow"
#1810SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
@Tshonka

1) 44% threat reduction with (only) Blessing of Salvation and Tranquil Air. Kenco: A Guide To Threat.

2) From the OP: The shaman is placed on constant global cooldown. The mana cost of refreshing 2 totems every 9 seconds is enormous. Raids that do not have paladins using Judgment of Wisdom will be unable to sustain this method. The shaman will have very little mana available for shocks and will likely only be able to sporadically use flame shock.
(In summary I doubt it'll improve your own DPS but it'll increase the DPS the group gain from you )

3) Personally I'd say no to playing more egoistic but ultimately it's your choice of course.

4) For the few times you need to chug a pot sure it's great but I have no doubt other trinkets (DPS ones) will benefit you more overall.

5) Haven't played my prot warrior for a while now but I used to see a significant increase in my KLH TPS with Windfury totem at the time.

__________________
Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more)
RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin
#1811SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
1) It stacks.

2) Totem twisting improves the groups dps and increases your melee dps while reducing your ownoverall dps due to not shocking.

3) There is no technique to playing a shaman imo, you dont have to keep up certain things (s&d, Mangle etc) so simply always being behind the mob, using your CD's effectively and keeping down your totems will provide you with pretty reasonable DPS.

4) The trinket blows, bloodlust brooch, hourglass, abacus, crystal forged, are all easily attainable.

5) Having 2 enhancement shamans imo is a waste. Your tank should not need a shaman to be able to generate enough threat.

Finally you've wearing all mail, any reason why? I think up till BT i was wearing 50% leather.
#1812SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tshonka
raason why i wear mail is because of history earlier

1) i had a serious dislike for a shaman who ran around healing in cloth, he died just by looking at him. This was of course in vanilla wow but still now if i can get the mail stuff i would rather have that then leather.
But i checked the lootzor link and maybe i should go for more leather then

2) dont want to "steal" the stuff from our rogues and feral druids but maybe i should begin with that .

3) i will replace the trinket then

All thanks for the info already, if you have more advice just let it flow

__________________
"Emocow"
#1813SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Those are my current stats (more precise, would be if I had socketed pure damage, which I will be doing someday soon). The gear is maxed out from Karazhan and Heroics.

1400 AP
203 Hit
25,84% Crit

__________________
Think of how stupid the average user is. Now realize half of them is even dumber than that.
#1814SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hulkling
@Hed

Just tested, because frankly i've never used Flametongue since getting Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

Nope, it doesnt proc from FT. Interestingly enough, it doesnt even proc from windfury, something I submitted a petition about months ago. WF being a physical attack you'd think it should activate the trinket. The GM thought so as well and told me it was a bug, but then again, hes a GM not a Dev. the latter seem to have funny notions of... well pretty much anything.
#1815SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Tshonka --
You need better trinkets, my man. The Brooch, Abacus or Hourglass to start (easy farms), even the Skyguard trinket (since you're probably already exalted with them, it's 3g for 68 AEP without the proc), but you should really fight for the Dragonspine if it drops.

Don't worry too much about dumping mail for some leather. It's nowhere near the same as wearing all cloth. I have a few leather pieces and much lower class gear than yours, and yet only have about 6% less DR. Is 6% really going to save you from being one-shotted?

If you're worried about threat & survivability, here's a suggestion: get a nice gear mod like Outfitter. Find a high armor, high block shield and set it up as a key binding. The second your threat mod tells you you've exceeded 90% of the tank you're standing behind, switch to the shield, and the second you drop below 80%, switch back to DW. This gives you survivability way beyond what a few pieces of mail can give you. The AEP values of some of those leather pieces are just insane. You could use some extra +crit!
#1816SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
Was thinking about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] it gives 120ap and 80spd with full stacks, will it be good using this trinket after 2.3 buff with a fast OH+FT?
(120ap*30%+80spd)*10%=+11,6 fire damage before COE+Scorch+Spriest and (maybe) Elemental Weapons.

Does FT proc this trinket?
No, FT does not proc this trinket. Neither do frostbrand, or totem crits. :-/ Also shocking to max buffs is kinda difficult, in practice I found I was only able to stack 3 or 4 buffs before one of my shocks was resisted. I suppose you could drop a lightning bolt or something to keep it going, but that would be a horrible decrease in melee damage.

On a side note, [Darkmoon Card: Wrath] might become a decent combo again once 2.3 hits due to FT since the Wrath buff doesn't get consumed by FT crits. I'll probably have to do PTR testing on this to find anything conclusive.
#1817SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Edit nevermind that was silly.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1818SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
So, to bring something new into the thread...

Here they are discussing the effect of Weapon Skill. While it was previously believed that weapon skill grants 0.1% hit and 0.04% crit per point (not to be confused with weapon skill rating), it now appears that it's actually better than that for the first 5 points of weapon skill. This is a big deal for Enhancement Shamans because we have no way of getting Weapon Skill from talents like Rogues.

In fact, the only item I'm aware of that grants weapon skill to non-daggers that we can equip is the [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Theoretically, this should give me an extra 2% hit and 0.24% crit with my Main Hand from the Weapon Skill rating, so I picked it up last night. (Sadly, my offhand is an axe and is not affected by this item... back of napkin math, 900 DPS 50% white 66% of which is MH, extra 2% hit = 900*.5*.66*.02 = 5.94 DPS; extra 0.24% crit 900 DPS 90% physical 66% of which is MH = 900*.9*.66*.0024 = 1.28 DPS, total contribution 7.22 DPS.... anyone want to carry this the rest of the way and convert that to AP?)

BTW, if this proves to be correct, then I would have to suggest that any orc aim for the Arena axe if they weren't already, and any non-orc aim for the mace as I'm not aware of any items we can equip to boost axe weapon skill.
#1819SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
In theory if FT is as viable as we'd hope you'd get a hefty bonus from that with an Axe/Dagger combo.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1820SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
2) Totem twisting improves the groups dps and increases your melee dps while reducing your ownoverall dps due to not shocking.
I'm not so sure I agree with this anymore.

Using Disquette's Totem Twisting bar, I've started using WF totem but waiting to GoA until right after the first WF refresh. Over the long run it gives less GoA but it gives a 10s window for shaman to dps and refresh shocks/SS etc. More importantly, it gives more chances for WF crits, which cause significantly more damage than shocks. Since one MH WF crit does more damage than a shock, I can stop and start auto attacking to try and get the MH to proc WF.

I don't have any fancy graphics, but my pattern goes something like this:
0s Flame shock (on approach)
1.5s WF totem (on approach)
(get in melee range)
3.0s Storm Strike
4.5s Wait for WFT refresh
5.0s GoA
6.5s Earthshock
(turn off/on auto attack to proc MH WF)
12s Flame shock
13.5s Storm Strike
15s WF totem

Then rinse, lather, repeat. Sometimes I wait for a second or two so the first SS is inside the GoA time.

Long story short, my DPS skyrocketed. It takes a retarded amount of keybinds and practicing to get it working, but the results are well worth it. Is anyone else doing something like this?
#1821SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
@Tshonka
5) You can always have a resto shaman drop WF in the MT's group, that is a fairly large increase in threat for him.

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
In theory if FT is as viable as we'd hope you'd get a hefty bonus from that with an Axe/Dagger combo.
Axe/dagger if you're orc, mace/mace or mace/dagger if you're anything else.
#1822SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3evale
+hit/crit/str ratings:
How much crit and hit are worth is completely dependant on how much you already have!! How much ap you have means nothing if you don't hit the mob in the first place. And if you don't hit it, you can't get a WF so you are easily delaying your WF proc greatly which is not just missing 1 hit, you're missing 3.
Also, how much crit is worth to you depends on how much you crit for. If you have tons of AP already, the amount being doubled by your crit is greater, thus the crit is worth more.


Also, you should at least put a little bit of thought into sta/int/mp5.
Sta: can't do dmg if you're dead can you?
Int/mp5: Shamanistic rage generates bucketloads of aggro and let's face it, the biggest thing holding you back from rockin the dps charts is your threat. I'm happy to mana pot on CD but mana is still an issue, especially as BC instances are no longer 5-minute-Naxx. You're likely to need to shammy rage 3 times in one encounter! That is serious aggro.
#1823SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by evale View Post
Int/mp5: Shamanistic rage generates bucketloads of aggro and let's face it, the biggest thing holding you back from rockin the dps charts is your threat. I'm happy to mana pot on CD but mana is still an issue, especially as BC instances are no longer 5-minute-Naxx. You're likely to need to shammy rage 3 times in one encounter! That is serious aggro.
So drop TA or twist WF+TA while you're Shamanistic Raging on aggro-touchy encounters. (Or get your tank lessons/a better ping/WF totem.) MP5 is WAY over-budget for the amount of extra potential damage it gives us. Blizzard needs to take the MP5 off our T6 so I can wear mail as my end-game set; right now it looks like it will be mostly leather.
#1824SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3washe
Originally Posted by drc View Post
Those are my current stats (more precise, would be if I had socketed pure damage, which I will be doing someday soon). The gear is maxed out from Karazhan and Heroics.

1400 AP
203 Hit
25,84% Crit

Well first post here, and damn lots of good info here, I will start to regear my shaman with some leather, altought Rogues will hate me a bit more for stealing his stuff.

Question are you getting double mongoose proc using those cleavers?

I read somewhere and I can be uniformed tought that Mongoose went into cooldown if the weapons had the same name, basically you wouldn't be able to have Mongoose x 2.... asking because Im working on the second merciless weapon.

What options I have for Helms?, looks like the best helm its the one that drops from Doomwalker, but he its out of my hands for the moment due that we dont have enough raid force atm to do 25 mans.

Also Im gemming the Midnight Legguards today and switching my desolation legs, Im aware I will lose like 30 hit, lowering my current 183 I got... I understand that at the moment I don't need that high hit number until later on.

Thanks for sharing all the info guys!
#1825SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by evale View Post
+hit/crit/str ratings:
How much crit and hit are worth is completely dependant on how much you already have!! How much ap you have means nothing if you don't hit the mob in the first place. And if you don't hit it, you can't get a WF so you are easily delaying your WF proc greatly which is not just missing 1 hit, you're missing 3.
Also, how much crit is worth to you depends on how much you crit for. If you have tons of AP already, the amount being doubled by your crit is greater, thus the crit is worth more.
.
Isn't this the same misconstructed logic that has been repeatedly squashed down before?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1851SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kalamadea
Hammer vs Axe

I've been pouring over pages of this thread and wowhead reading everything I can on this topic. Atm I'm 300 smithing and trying to decide for raid dps, which specialty will be better. With that being said, I'm a draenei (no +weapon skill =/ ).

Is it safe to make the following statements (based on reading)?

1. Orcs best weapon is axe post haste nerf.
2. For the rest, Axe is a better weapon at KZ/Gruul/SSC/TK lvls.
3. Once higher SSC/TK and BT/Hyjal is reached, the mace's scaling > axe's raw stats.

Finally, for PVP does the stam on the 2H mace and stun proc provide a better pvp weapon then DW with BS mace or axe?

Thank you for all the info to date!
#1852SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
My water shield goes off all the time, its too good *not* to use. I refresh it constantly in raids.
Heh, Strange you should say that, I dont think I have ever cast it once, not since TBC came out anyway.
#1853SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Ashtongue Trinket

Current theory stands that Ashtongue Talisman of Vision has 89% proc rate. But it think it is less. Let me explain.

As I understand from Bergs math, he assumes that buff is applied when ever SS hits. But in practice i have seen many SS hits that does not apply the buff. And reading the tooltip, it makes perfect sense - "Stormstrike has a 50% chance to grant up to 275 attack power for 10 sec." - each weapon has 50% chance to apply buff on SS hit.

That would mean 50% x 50% = 25% miss chance?
Following the same assumption that Berg made about parry/dodge, 5% of SS does not land at all. Doesnt it mean that proc rate is rather 71% not 89% that would bring AEP down to 195? In this case this trnklet would be more in line on other trinklets, still a clear winner (with melee haste nerf inc), but not an overpowered (nor bugged) one.

Did some testing on ogres above Aldors (level 71 non-elites).

Out of 50 SS i got:
- 3 lost to ether parry/dodge/miss
- 7 ss hits, but no buff applied

I know that its not enough testing for solid statistics, but does show the pattern.

Comments?
#1854SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
So drop TA or twist WF+TA while you're Shamanistic Raging on aggro-touchy encounters. (Or get your tank lessons/a better ping/WF totem.) MP5 is WAY over-budget for the amount of extra potential damage it gives us. Blizzard needs to take the MP5 off our T6 so I can wear mail as my end-game set; right now it looks like it will be mostly leather.
Couldn't agree more. The 35 Mp5 at T6 could also be around 85 (!) agility.
#1855SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Heh, Strange you should say that, I dont think I have ever cast it once, not since TBC came out anyway.
I use LS mostly for the extra damage. The way I look at it is the amount of mana restored by WS is insignificant compared to shamanistic rage, but the damage caused by LS is so mana efficient that I can't not use it. And it's just going to get so much better in 2.3.
#1856SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3funshinebear
During raids I use Water Shield pretty regularly. I just did a quick check of our last TK run and mana gained from Shamanistic Rage was 58.5k and Water Shield was 11.5k.
#1857SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Durigen
Water Shield is quite possibly one of the more powerful tools given to an enhancement shaman. While your shield may procc some extra damage for a piddly investment of mana, you get (I think) 4x the amount back. In long fights (>3 minutes) that can really add up to alot of mana. And one Shock or one good SS will out damage an entire LS - and cost less mana.
#1858SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Water shield? Camoon, I´ll remind you, ench shaman is not a (prime) healer. Your DPS. IT is only good at Kaz'rogal in MH when you do not want to gimp yourself with shadowres. If you ever ever run into manaproblems, use manaspring totem. And tbh, if you have mana problems, you screwd up your rage timing. And if you didnt and you are still oom, check your gear - need to have more AP. Easy fix is bloodlust brooth you should only use together with shamanistc rage. Also, make sure you get battleshout + bom, and ola - 7k manaback becomes reality during 1 rage.

(my unbuffed AP is ~1500, raidbuffed @ shamanistc rage time ~3300, that makes rage tick me for 500+ mana )
#1859SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Kalamadea View Post
I've been pouring over pages of this thread and wowhead reading everything I can on this topic. Atm I'm 300 smithing and trying to decide for raid dps, which specialty will be better. With that being said, I'm a draenei (no +weapon skill =/ ).

Is it safe to make the following statements (based on reading)?

1. Orcs best weapon is axe post haste nerf.
2. For the rest, Axe is a better weapon at KZ/Gruul/SSC/TK lvls.
3. Once higher SSC/TK and BT/Hyjal is reached, the mace's scaling > axe's raw stats.

Finally, for PVP does the stam on the 2H mace and stun proc provide a better pvp weapon then DW with BS mace or axe?

Thank you for all the info to date!
I would agree with 1 but just say that the mace is better at just about every gear lvl for non orcs.

Theres a topic about 2h vs DW in pvp on the pvp forum (cant miss it), I personally prefer DW. If you were to go 2h, out of the BS weapons, I'd pick the mace aswell.
#1860SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Durigen View Post
Water Shield is quite possibly one of the more powerful tools given to an enhancement shaman. While your shield may procc some extra damage for a piddly investment of mana, you get (I think) 4x the amount back. In long fights (>3 minutes) that can really add up to alot of mana. And one Shock or one good SS will out damage an entire LS - and cost less mana.
One shock will not out-damage an LS for less mana, and I don't think it does now either.

Let's look at scenario again with 2800 AP, which equals 840 spell dmg.

LS receives full spell damage / 3 per charge.

Base dmg is 287 per charge + (840/3)280 = 567

Talents add 15% = 652 dmg per charge

652 * 3 = 1956 dmg for one cast of LS

Now factor raid effects - Misery, (no SS since it is likely being eaten), chance to resist - averages to 1766 dmg

1766 / 460 mana (base cost with Mental Quickness) = 3.8 dmg per mana


compared to Flame Shock


377 initial with 420 over the dot, the initial burst receives 15%, the dot 52% of spell dmg.

at 840 this equals 503 and 856.

The initial shock can crit, so we'll ave that at 528, for a total of 1384.

Raid effects - misery, scorch, coe, resists = 1475 dmg. Assuming you have concussion, that brings it to 1549

Mana cost is 470 with mental quickness, for a dpm of 3.3


LS will beat FS by .5 dpm in this type of raid situation. Now at that point, you have to say, is it worth it to regen 297 mana over the course of X time, or to do 1766 dmg over that X time. ? You'd have to consider the frequency with which the charges would be consumed, the length of the fight, and whether time will be a factor in the use of that mana. Since you can assume you'll be able to regenerate your mana to full every 2 minutes, it may also depend upon the size of your mana pool and how fast you can use it up within that time.

Then there's the consideration that I can pop a mana pot every two minutes and more than make up for using LS instead of WS, and thus I'm doing more damage. Assuming I'll never be completely oom, I opt to do more damage. It's the same reason that I ask for Blessing of Might instead of Wisdom.
#1861SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Water shield? Camoon, I´ll remind you, ench shaman is not a (prime) healer. Your DPS. IT is only good at Kaz'rogal in MH when you do not want to gimp yourself with shadowres. If you ever ever run into manaproblems, use manaspring totem. And tbh, if you have mana problems, you screwd up your rage timing. And if you didnt and you are still oom, check your gear - need to have more AP. Easy fix is bloodlust brooth you should only use together with shamanistc rage. Also, make sure you get battleshout + bom, and ola - 7k manaback becomes reality during 1 rage.

(my unbuffed AP is ~1500, raidbuffed @ shamanistc rage time ~3300, that makes rage tick me for 500+ mana )
It's not a matter of a poorly timed rage, it's a matter of burning through 7k+ mana in <120 seconds. It's very possible and takes some realization of what all you can do in those 120 seconds to get the most out of your mana and anything added (mana spring, jow, water shield) is an extra shock that I don't have to skip.
#1862SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Teirz
Don't forget lightning shield do 100% threat while your melee damage is 85% threat. So at threat sensitive fight you would wanna reduce threat as much as possible instead.

Althought enh is not a prime healer, you might be saving a raid if happen that you go out from dps and heal the MT for a moment while your druid brez the dead healer. Don't forget that enh although weak in healing efficiency, able to swap weapon and gain +600-700 healing will still helps you to put out some good emergency healing, and it will just get better when 2.3 comes.

Last edited by Teirz : 08/25/07 at 2:43 PM.
#1863SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
My water shield goes off all the time, its too good *not* to use. I refresh it constantly in raids.
I'm also very skeptical that things like teron's shadow bolts, or naj'entus' shield will make the bosses HIT by the shield, instead of just eating a charge. Then again, I've never put in the effort to look much.
#1864SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Viper
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
I'm also very skeptical that things like teron's shadow bolts, or naj'entus' shield will make the bosses HIT by the shield, instead of just eating a charge. Then again, I've never put in the effort to look much.
I could see Naj'entus's tidal shield doing it, but the shadow bolts from Teron are performed by those "Doom Blossoms" and not even him.
#1865SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
I'm also very skeptical that things like teron's shadow bolts, or naj'entus' shield will make the bosses HIT by the shield, instead of just eating a charge. Then again, I've never put in the effort to look much.
This is why I stopped caring about Lightning Shield, even at the entry raid level, you have Gruul, Shatter eats LS charge but doesn't do any damage. Too many boss abilities are like that, so I'm also in the camp of "3% chance to dodge a game-ending cleave/stay alive long enough for a taunt/heal to hit".

I always drop Mana Spring anyway unless a resist or cleansing totem's needed (as well as Searing every 2m, and Fire Nova if I'm too threat-capped to shock). It's a minimal improvement, but if you're not twisting you should have GCDs to spare, so...

Last edited by Rob : 08/25/07 at 3:12 PM.
#1866SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
This is why I stopped caring about Lightning Shield, even at the entry raid level, you have Gruul, Shatter eats LS charge but doesn't do any damage. Too many boss abilities are like that, so I'm also in the camp of "3% chance to dodge a game-ending cleave/stay alive long enough for a taunt/heal to hit".

I always drop Mana Spring anyway unless a resist or cleansing totem's needed (as well as Searing every 2m, and Fire Nova if I'm too threat-capped to shock). It's a minimal improvement, but if you're not twisting you should have GCDs to spare, so...
Don't forget bosses with a pulse sort of thing; archimonde and hydross come to mind.
#1867SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
Brum
Deleted, linked to post with inaccurate data

Last edited by Brum : 10/08/07 at 10:09 PM. Reason: Linked to poor post
#1868SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Chutoi
I'm afraid I'm a little behind the times. I was under the (apparently) mistaken impression that frostbrand was actually superior to fire on our weapons. Could someone help unconfuse me?

I'm guessing I should be switching to fire instead of frost for fights. I'm currently using the merciless gladiator main hand and offhand fist weapons. That means my offhand is faster than my main hand. Would I be better off using dual WF? I'd expect, given the analysis here, that I'd be better off using WF and fire (vs frost?) unless I choose to use a slower weapon in my offhand.

Has the analysis between frost and fire already been run?

Thank you, guys!
#1869SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Xoya
To my understanding, you'll still be better off using windfury on your offhand. The analysis of Flametongue Weapon was done with the upcoming talent changes in mind (and these won't be coming till the expansion I think).
#1870SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
I think the theory suggests you're better off choosing a slower weapon NOW -- just go to the AH and buy any green 2.6 OH, regardless of its stats and what you're replacing. I replaced [Guile of Khoraazi] with some 61 dps Of The Owl axe and saw a modest dps gain. Even if you don't replace your weapon, there's still a decent gain to be had by using WF on your fast OH.

A shaman I used to guild with swears by WF and Frostbrand for PvP, says the slowing effects of the proc are more than worth the drop in dps. I use a 2H in PvP and I'm no good, so IDK.

As for shields -- I do use water shield but i'm not religious about keeping it up because I don't see that big of a gain in most fights. I know it can be measurable in some raid situations -- that's why i put it up -- but overall it's not going to make or break a fight, just push off the need to down a pot.

And any way you look at it, +15% to LS is 2 talent points better wasted elsewhere.
#1871SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Late reply as I was out all day registering for wedding gifts.

For those saying water shield doesn't tick in any fight, every SSC/TK parse that I've got shows it going off 19-25 times per boss fight - That's between 6-9 refreshes of the shield during the fight and around 2k mana returned.

I'm just gonna lay it all out here - if you're claiming otherwise, you're being damned silly and defending a really stupid point. Water Shield is a fantastic raid ability for enhance shaman, period. Lightning shield is great too, I've started using it recently and it procs just as frequently I've found.
#1872SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Paradox
hi, i'd like some opinion on belts.

I currently have the option of getting belt of the black eagle or belt of deep shadow crafted, i'm currently using the epic lv70 honour-bought belt.

unbuffed I have 1436 AP, 155Hit, 29.28% crit, I think the deep shadow belt is the superior option (mostly for the extra +hit), but i'd like some input before I dump 20 primals into it.

thanks, also great thread.. read it every day. (apologies if this is the wrong place to ask this, I just don't know where else to go)

black eagle
crit: 0.68 + 0.12 + 0.77 + 0.18 = 1.75%
AP: 66 + 8 + 8 = 82

deep shadow
crit: 1.28 + 0.12 = 1.4%
AP: 66 + 8 + 8 = 82
Hit: 1.14%

(this is including the suggested gems in the first post)

Last edited by Paradox : 08/26/07 at 12:27 AM.
#1873SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Deep Shadow is easily superior to Black Eagle. The question at this point for SSC/TK level gear would be Deep Shadow vs. One-Hundred Deaths. We're pretty much waiting for some research to finish up on the effect of weapon skill.
#1874SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gulvan
I currently use the ashtongue rep trinket and I can verify that it procs around 75-85%. If a SS is dodged or missed the rate lowers. During a sharaz attempt I checked the buff, and it was up all the time except once over a 3min(or so) attempt except of course when it was dodged, parried(lol sharaz) or missed. Just letting you know my experience.
#1875SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3mek
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
For those saying water shield doesn't tick in any fight, every SSC/TK parse that I've got shows it going off 19-25 times per boss fight - That's between 6-9 refreshes of the shield during the fight and around 2k mana returned.
Water shield is fickle, and there's no rhyme or reason as to what will or will not proc it. Some fights with heavy scripting (eg. Kael) will proc it randomly and constantly, even when you're not being hit; other fights, like Lurker, will completely refuse to proc it, despite all the AOE damage you're taking. It's damn random, but it definitely procs frequently enough to be worth casting, regardless of the instance you're in.
#1926SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Rob, I believe the oft quoted 36% is a remnant of having 2 weapons with a 20% chance, minus the chances lost due to cooldown. I seriously doubt that a different test number is used when dual wielding.
Nope, a different test number is used when dual wielding AND both weapons are enchanted with the same rank of Windfury, according to Disquette and other testers. Any eligible swing outside of CD has a 36% chance to proc WF which leads to an overall proc rate of ~17-18% with appropriately slow weapons.
You seem to misunderstand the hit table a bit, too. There is a single roll per attack and it is compared to a table of all possible outcomes. Crit is merely a special case of hit on this table.
I assure you, I'm very familiar with the attack table. Are you familiar with the fact that rogue special attacks (and it is commonly assumed therefore all "yellow" attacks such as Stormstrike and Windfury) use a two-roll system, completely separate from the normal "white" attack table, which first rolls to determine if the attack hit and then rolls to determine if it crit? I'm asking if we have shown that WF uses a two-roll system, or if we have shown that it uses a one-roll system (attack table).

Last edited by Rob : 08/27/07 at 8:05 PM. Reason: clarity
#1927SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I assure you, I'm very familiar with the attack table. Are you familiar with the fact that rogue special attacks (and it is commonly assumed therefore all "yellow" attacks such as Stormstrike and Windfury) use a two-roll system, completely separate from the normal "white" attack table, which first rolls to determine if the attack hit and then rolls to determine if it crit? I'm asking if we have shown that WF uses a two-roll system, or if we have shown that it uses a one-roll system (attack table).
Pretty sure I've seen a WF crit partially blocked, so that makes it a 2roll system. Stormstrike hmmm.. as far as I can recall, either the first hit misses/dodge/parry, or else both hit and I've never seen any partial mitigation on it, which makes it a rather unique mechanic, since it appears to have a single attack table-like decision for if it hits, then the 2 hits that result from that single attack table roll both have a chance to crit independantly (a second roll each?) and yet appears unable to be partially blocked on a crit (I may be wrong on that, but can't recall ever seeing it happen)
#1928SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Assumption so far has been that SS works like Mutilate since it's basically the same mechanic albeit with different bonuses. I'm not a rogue so I don't know if Mutilate has the same "one miss roll" mechanic, but I think it does, and this seems like a fairly safe assumption, so really I'm only interested in WF insofar as I saw people questioning whether or not WF was a two-roll attack.
#1929SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I just checked a random WWS parse (including trash for a 4 hr raid) and while I have a number of WF attacks "partially blocked" I had zero Stormstrikes partially blocked.
Here's the parse I looked at. 17 WF partial blocks, no SS blocks.
#1930SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ayror
First time poster here

Great information. I have learned more than I could imagine about an Enhancement Shaman through this thread.

I did notice the little graph of the MH 2.6 OH 1.5 and how it affected windfury. I found myself in a bind when I was reading up on the Syphon of Nathrezim and could not find any information on shamans that wielded a Dragonstrike in their MH with this in their OH. For those that wonder how the 2.8 OH affects windfury, I made this little graph up comparing the MH2.7/OH2.8 and the MH2.7/OH2.6 set-ups. This is based on which weapon will hit the mob first after the 3 second windfury cooldown. Also note this is scaled down to 1 second.

Edit: Graph down due to major flaw don't listen to me yet!

I'm fairly sure I got everything right. Please correct/criticize me on this!

Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 11:43 AM.
#1931SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Was that based on actual in-game test results?
#1932SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Timmervargen
One thing that I noticed which strikes me as odd. In the 2.7/2.6 graph, shouldn't the main hand still get the first chance to proc, since there is no swing delay for the very first swing of combat? Provided that you start auto attacking after you enter melee range.

Edit: Same thing in the 2.7/2.8 one, First hit comes after a full swing timer. It should start with the first swings at 0 seconds.
#1933SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Originally Posted by Timmervargen View Post
One thing that I noticed which strikes me as odd. In the 2.7/2.6 graph, shouldn't the main hand still get the first chance to proc, since there is no swing delay for the very first swing of combat? Provided that you start auto attacking after you enter melee range.
True. But I modeled my graph off the 2.6/1.5 graph in the first post. He started the WF cooldown on the 1.5 second strike.
#1934SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Probably my fault. The graph I made wasn't necessarily to illustrate from the beginning of combat, just showing how the cycle ends up. I can fix that later I suppose.
#1935SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Was that based on actual in-game test results?
This is based on theory if windfury were to proc after every 3 second cooldown. Truthfully what is shows is what weapon would strike next after the 3 second cooldown is up.
#1936SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
I'm gonna go model it with WF procing right off the beginning and see if the results change any. brb lol
#1937SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
If you want to make a better one to replace the one I made, be my guest.
#1938SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
If your talkin about reworking your 2.6/1.5 set-up I think I could whip somethin up for ya :P. But in no way am I tryin to out-do you good sir :P
#1939SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
#1940SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Ayror View Post
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
I didn't get to see the first one but how do you plan to account for Flurry? The 3 charges vs 2 swing cycle may makes all this futile... Are you assuming Flurry is always UP (or always down)?
#1941SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is probably best to model it with flurry since flurry will up most of the time.
#1942SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ayror
I'll make up a formula right now that will calculate Flurry with the model I just reworked.

Edit: The formula is proving to be more work than I first thought. This will take a little more time.

Edit2: Just doing some quick math and unofficially checked numbers, I'm showing that for every first strike cycle (cycle = the time between when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit at the same time until the next time when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit toghther again) that for every time 1 MH hit turns into an OH hit, an OH hit in the cycle turns into a MH hit. More calculations show that you would need over 13 mins of straight, non-intueruppted melee dps to have a cycle that only switches a MH hit to an OH hit. I don't know about you but that sounds pretty boring to me!

To show what I mean by a cycle, I'll put up one reworked graph...so I don't confuse anyone.



Don't worry about the 7.7, that graph isn't totally finished.

Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 3:09 PM.
#1943SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3s315h1n
Head Enchants

Hey, great stuff in here.

I was browsing some other shaman around and I noticed one of them went with the Glyph of the Outcast (37.4 AEP) over the Glyph of Ferocity (56.4 AEP).

I didn't see mention of head enchants in the itemization portion of the OP. I'm sure it boils down to preference but from a pure DPS standpoint I'd go with Ferocity.
#1944SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I would tend to agree with you on that. The intellect on the Outcast enchant isn't really value added, whereas the Hit rating on the Ferocity is.
#1945SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Maybe he wasn't CE Revered, because Glyph of Ferocity is straight-up better.

Also, it might just be me, but I don't understand that graph. Are you saying that it takes 13m to get an extra MH attack in eligible to proc WF? Wouldn't this vary based on randomness due to WF procs?
#1946SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Ayror, I'm not getting your graph.. I think your legend isn't complete / good enough.. Maybe I'm dumb but I don't get the difference of tones in the 2 color per hands.. So I have trouble getting when is it that your hand swings.
#1947SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
The 2 different shades are alternating reset timers for the swings i.e. At the line between the bright color and shaded color is where the swing occurs. The 1st swing reset of each weapon is bright, the 2nd reset is shaded, the 3rd is bright, the 4th is shade, etc.

The red lines are the end of the 3sec hidden cooldown on WF counting from the 1st swing to land after the previous WF CD is gone.

The little squares on top just show which hand is the one that procs WF.

@Ayror, I have 2 comments
1. It is hard to see the color difference of the small squares indicating 'Possible WH hit'. Maybe use the bright versions of the colors instead of the shaded ones
2. The internal cooldown for the swing between the red lines 1 and 2 is 9 squares instead of 10 like all the others. This will mean the OH will be the 1st swing after red line 2.

EDIT: reworded some sentences
#1948SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Yea like I said that graph isn't complete at all, and I understand how you guys can be confused.

@Apsalar-
That's is definately one mistake about the red lines, but it's not 9 it's 11 squares ><. Again, it's not fully complete!

@Iol-
The legend is not fully understandable. I'll switch up the colors and such to make it more understandable.

I plan on making a new graph that includes flurry is up the whole time. Not using the graphs, my math has been showing that a MH will hit more than the OH with the syphon in the OH. I'll fix it all up when I can.

Thank you for the feedback, it's helpin me figure out the flaws and pointing me in the right direction in my calculations
#1949SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is 11 from the last red line, but 9 from the 1st swing to land after the red line All the others are fine.

Kudos to you for your effort!
#1950SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Cele, I bet you lost ~1% of your total dps because your elemental shaman was eating your debuffs. Which is fine; I guarantee he put them to good use.
Not worth to mention. I dont see that as being "ninjad", ele shaman gets much more out of that 20% than my lousy shock. Actually, if there would be some way to make sure that its ele shaman who gets to eat thoes buffs, Id be happy. But currenty rogues poison eats majority of them. Anyone has done some workaround on it? Is there, group-DPS wise, alternative, like shaprening stones or something?
#2001SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
It's 96 aep average. I think it used to be assumed 30% uptime, if you look at 26.6% it's 313.76x.266=83.46 average aep.
#2002SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Zerath View Post
I built a basic spreadsheet to help me see the AEP for items, but, how do you factor in procs? I.E. Dragonstrike = 212haste rating*1.48 = 313.76aep, right? The issue with that - it's not constant. If you use the search tool (NO WAY!) there are several references to Dragonstrike being 96AEP... how are people getting this? Dragonstrike has a rough 26.6% proc from a 33.3 minute testing (this factors in some where but not sure where).

Everything else is simple for getting AEP, straight constant numbers are simple but procs are where I'm getting confused. If anyone could help, that would be great. Please and thank you.
You get those values by factoring in the proc uptime, there's an older thread with some equations for it if you search for "uptime".

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2003SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Thank you Rava and Malan.

Now, back to the awesome Dragonstrike Vs. Wicked Edge of the Planar:

If Dragonstrike is really ~25% proc rate, wouldn't it be better to push for Wicked Edge instead? It being almost 11aep more. Granted, the proc on DS is insane and would increase white damage....Should I just assume 30% proc rate as Rava explained from here on out?
#2004SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Zerath View Post
Thank you Rava and Malan.

Now, back to the awesome Dragonstrike Vs. Wicked Edge of the Planar:

If Dragonstrike is really ~25% proc rate, wouldn't it be better to push for Wicked Edge instead? It being almost 11aep more. Granted, the proc on DS is insane and would increase white damage....Should I just assume 30% proc rate as Rava explained from here on out?
I wouldn't assume 30%, I think that is just what original testing showed. If someone actually tested for 33 mins and saw a 26.6% uptime that's about as accurate as you can get. As far as the Wicked Edge vs Dragonstrike argument, I really don't know. The haste nerf sucks and I'm probably going to be dropping Dragonstrike if/when they buff BT weapons as they did SSC/TK.
#2005SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Zerath View Post
Thank you Rava and Malan.

Now, back to the awesome Dragonstrike Vs. Wicked Edge of the Planar:

If Dragonstrike is really ~25% proc rate, wouldn't it be better to push for Wicked Edge instead? It being almost 11aep more. Granted, the proc on DS is insane and would increase white damage....Should I just assume 30% proc rate as Rava explained from here on out?
It is not proc rate, it is proc upkeep time. Proc rate for Dragonstrike is 9% = 2ppm*2.7speed/60sec. AEP value of Dragonstrike was calculated as (2ppm * 10 sec / 60) * 313.7AEP = 33.3% upkeep time * 313.7 AEP = 105 AEP but this is not taking overlapping procs into account. It was assumed that overlapping leads to 30.6% upkeep time that leads to 30.6%*313.7 = 96 AEP. If you have 26.6% upkeep time - it becomes 83 AEP for you. If you will put on some haste items the upkeep time will be higher and AEP value of the item for you will be higher.

This happens to all items with procs - their AEP value depends on how much haste you have. Similarly, AEP value for 1 haste rating depends on how many items with procs you have.
#2006SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
So, in the situation of not having any Haste items to be able to increase the upkeep percentage, would it be better off going with the Wicked Edge?

My situation - working towards either Planar Edge or Dragonstrike. The equipment on my toon consists of Greens/Kara/high end blues. I may never see Hyjal or BT, but getting vortexes shouldn't be an issue in the coming month(s). Trying to break down each of the main blacksmithing weapons to see which is better overall.
#2007SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Originally Posted by Celetroll View Post
Unless your weapon speed + passive haste gear + flurry falls between that theoretical dps loss range, I wouldnt be worried.

Of course you can speed yourself up with temporary buffs to that range and even way beyond, fastest i have seen my 2.60 weapons hit was 0.78, (I´m troll with berserking), but its just temporary buffs and that gap is way too narrow to worry about with temporary buffs.
When I get my double mongoose up with the Haste proc off DST combined with flurry I sit on like 1.41 atk speed :o
#2008SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bragor
Haste + Armor Stacking

I have been trying to determine whether stacking haste + armor reduction is the way to go once you hit 33% crit unbuffed... trying to formulate an excel sheet but I am finding it terribly random for each boss encounter.

The main Problems is that each creature will have it's own armor value in which ignore armor (IA) & we won't know the exact armor value until extensive formulating of the each creatures armor type.

I will post more once I did finishing my research (1 week off college = More time spent theroycrafting).

Main concern is... Is it worth it stacking haste & armor reduction after reaching a certain amount of AP/Crit?

__________________


You never know, If you never try.
#2009SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
Main concern is... Is it worth it stacking haste & armor reduction after reaching a certain amount of AP/Crit?
Haste is definitely worth increasing if you already have a lot of AP/Crit. Refer to cube/square examples several pages back. Armor reduction - well, it depends not only on what stats you already have but what boss you are fighting against.
#2010SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
Here's a thought on how to calculate a value (something we can at least input into Pawn) for -armor on items. We all know that the actual value of the stat scales higher as the base armor of the boss/mob in question decreases. We could just find the lowest possible value of the stat (i.e. highest armor bosses/mobs) and just use that, at least to give us a baseline for consideration of how good the stat is. Thoughts?
#2011SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Keisos
First time post here, I was wondering what the benefits / mechanics behind using two 2.8 speed weapons would be, I looked through the topic for a while, but after spending some time doing so, I realized the chances of me finding what I was looking for was going to be a needle in a haystack.

I've seen a lot of information regarding the use of a 2.6 - 2.8 speed weapon together in different combinations; but haven't seen much regarding the use of two weapons of identical speed, to be more specific, Using x2 Syphon of the Nethrezim vrs. Using 1 and a Rising Tide together.

It would make a lot of sense, the ability to get both weapons to be as close to 1.5 speed using haste, the extra flurry tick from Identical Speed, and the maximum damage from Stormstrike, but I was wondering, all the posts I've seen that mention using identical speed weapons never have it as their focal point, I was wondering if their was a conversation on it regarding shamans specifically (I read the flurry post, but this forum hasn't talked about it at all from what I've seen) Maybe I'm missing something obvious, are there any hidden side effects to using them as opposed to mixing weapon speeds (Less Mainhand flurry consumption from using a faster weapon, wf desyncing your weapon speeds?)

I guess what I'm asking is, between another syphon or rising tide, which should I pick up as my next weapon and why, any help with this is extremely appreciated.

Shikka asked this question in post #914, but it only had one or two directly corresponding replies, and I didn't grasp why matching weapon speed seemed like such a bad idea.
#2012SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Zerath View Post
So, in the situation of not having any Haste items to be able to increase the upkeep percentage, would it be better off going with the Wicked Edge?

My situation - working towards either Planar Edge or Dragonstrike. The equipment on my toon consists of Greens/Kara/high end blues. I may never see Hyjal or BT, but getting vortexes shouldn't be an issue in the coming month(s). Trying to break down each of the main blacksmithing weapons to see which is better overall.
For my decision, I looked at the alternatives to each weapon. Dragonstrike's haste proc is fairly unique, with no other available mainhand for Shaman. Meanwhile, Wicked Edge of the Planes has competition from any weapon with comparable stats/DPS, such as a Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver.

I'm not sure how much the proc will be worth after the haste nerf, but I've found the maces to be superior to weapons with higher DPS/better stats (memory's a bit hazy, but I think it was [Drakefist Hammer] vs. [Fool's Bane]).

Also... I love procs. When I pop Bloodlust, I'm almost guaranteed to get my mace to proc, which almost guarantees my DST to proc, which almost guarantees double Mongoose. Then I trinket, pop a trinket, haste pot and get a friendly LWer to pop drums of battle, all of which get additional gains from being active at the same time.
#2013SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Suazo
has anyone done any calculations for the upcoming haste nerf as far as trinkets go?

Our guild is currently progressing through SSC/TE (Al'ar first kill tonight!) and i'm wondering if I should still be saving DKP for that possible Dragonspine drop or if I can move onto Tsunami Talisman.

Also wondering where [Dragonstrike] will rank after the haste change, as well as OH comparison's since all of SSC/TE weapons are getting buffed soon as well.
#2014SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I was thinking about how the haste nerf will affect my weapon choice, There is no way im switching to axes for wicked edge, for a start I cant be arsed to do 10 heroics for badges, then there is the little matter of going into ssc/tk which there is no point to do so for my guild.

So im at the point where I think perhaps I would change my MH (Dragonstrike) to a 2nd syphon if it ever drops. But givent he lack of stats on the syphon I thought about Rising tides, how does the difference between top end range (313 vs 365) and the 0.2 slower speed compare.

The stats on rising tide are obviously very nice and would give me an extra 42 hit and 88 if I was duel wielding them, with the loss of the syphon proc (pretty poor imo) and whatever the difference is between the speeds and top end.

Is this even measurable? (is that even a word?)
#2015SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Dukanull
@stig- rising tide is unique, i would kill to dual wield them as an orc.

My GUESS would be two syphons beating out pretty much any other weapon combo post 2.2, but just a guess.

__________________
Vindication-wow.com

Last edited by Dukanull : 08/31/07 at 5:37 AM.
#2016SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Dukanull View Post
@stig- rising tide is unique, i would kill to dual wield them as an orc.

My GUESS would be two syphons beating out pretty much any other weapon combo post 2.2, but just a guess.
Hmm, has it always been unique?
#2017SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strawberry
A specific question

Hey guys,

I suppose i'm the equivalent of a long time listener, first time caller here

I've been keenly reading the discussion of relative weapon speeds for shamans, which has really helped push my DPS up. Now, i've run into a specific issue which confuses me, as I'm bloody awful at maths.

My guild's got to the point where Khara is a farm-fest, where the people going are only looking for maybe one item from one boss. Thus, the other night, despite a total lack of Fool's bane and Decapitator, I walked away with Malchazeen in my trousers. Exciting. A 91 DPS dagger with a 1.8 speed. You'd think that would be good for a Melee DPS person. But, as I read the forum, apparently not.

My question is this - if i put Malchazeen in my MH, and my Boggspine knuckles in my OH, will my DPS go up from my current MH - Stormreaver warblades?

The whole weapon speed thing leaves me deeply confused I must say. As far as i can tell slow = best for OH & MH. But will a fast MH be per se bad? Especially if it's replacing a blue with 15 less DPS?

Also, i'm on the cusp of getting a Runic Hammer - Would Malchazeen MH/Runic Hammer OH be better than Malchazeen/Boggspine or Stormreaver/Boggspine?

Btw, thanks in general for all the hard work on the maths guys. You've done a great job of not only doing the calculations, but also making them easily accesible to the layman. You've enabled me to beat the two other shamans in my guild who insisted flametounge, GoA and + hit were all the best for shamans. They can't argue with being lower down the DPS charts time and again.

Basically, you're great

Strawbs
#2018SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Touf
Your answer's in the first post...read it. It's nicely sectioned for you. I wish all threads had quality maintenance like this.
#2019SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gnus
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Hmm, has it always been unique?
Yes, otherwise two Rising Tides just smash Syphons to dust from DPS side due to poor Syphon proc.
#2020SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strawberry
Touf,

i assume what you mean is the phrase in the first post; "As noted above, damage from WF and SS are not normalized to weapon speed. Slow/Slow will always outperform any combination of Fast/Slow, Slow/Fast, or Fast/Fast when both weapons are imbued with WF."

Presumably, "always" means "always" but it's so incredibly counter-intiutive that I thought I would ask the question. If it does mean "always" then is a 2.6 green better than an epic 1.8 as a Main Hand? for that matter, if "always" means "always" is a 2.6 speed grey mainhand I buy from an anvilmar vendor better than an epic dagger? The posts are very clear on OHs - but MH is a little opaque.

I understand that a slow MH is better for a variety of reasons; Yes, i did read carefully before posting. My question was - in a situation with a 20 DPS difference between a fast weapon and a slow weapon, is it still advantageous to use the slow weapon?

I know this is true for OH, having read the posts but what about for MH? An advanced search for topics on MH speed on the thread reveals little. I'm only asking because I think it's something that is genuinely confusing.
#2021SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
@Strawberry - hold onto the Malchazeen in your bank until the spell dmg talent change comes in 2.3, then if you don't have a better OH by then you can put FT on the dagger and use it. By using the dagger MH you'd gain 15 Weapon DPS, but you'd lose a lot of instant attack damage from WF and SS.

You can always do a 5-10 min test on the blasted lands mobs with each combination to check, I'd put my money on the 2.6 still outpacing the malchazeen though.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2022SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strawberry
Ah, thanks.

I'll do a test and we'll see. Part of me was hoping someone had already done the legwork, but, meh, i'll have to do some work rather than just be told i'm wrong

Two things -

1.) Is there any reason to test specifically in the blasted lands? Or is that just a long standing joke?

2.)I'll be pleasantly surprised it if the shaman spell damage talent appears in it's hinted at form, but by then a hotfix will mean we'll probably be buffing melee holy priests with GoA and arguing that sentry totem has better synergy with holy fire
#2023SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
The mobs in the blasted lands near the crystals cannot be killed, thats why we use them. Other option is to get a tank and a healer and use a Halaani guard, but that's a bit risky (PvP) and you need to have some nice people willing to help you out.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2024SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
Is it alright to ask gear questions in this thread? It's possibly the best place to ask since you will all know better than anywhere else, but I think it's just for theorycrafting the mechanics and such?

Anyway this is my dilemma.. our guild has 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK down, and all the new gear options I am having open to me are an increase in AP and Crit, but less or no +hit at all. My current stats are as follows: AP:1478, Hit Rating: 155, Crit: 29.56%.
I picked up Boots of Effortless Striking, which gives me an increase of +8 AP, and 0.34% crit, but I completely lose out on 1.08% Hit rating from my Fiend Slayer Boots.

What's the best to use? There's a few things like this where I gain a small amount of AP and Crit, but lose a lot of hit, basically how much hit can I drop and when does the added AP/Crit outweigh the loss of hit?

Another example of this would be Ancestral Ring of Conquest, replacing my Violet Signet I will gain +8 AP and 0.84% crit, but a loss of 1.00% Hit, I really hope someone can help me out here..thank you.
#2025SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Touf
Malan answered most of it.

Basically, if you use a faster weapon, your extra attacks from WF are weaker. With no cooldown, you would get more procs to compensate. However, with a cooldown, you're basically getting a few more procs that are much weaker. The exact dps point a fast weapon would be better is unknown, especially since calculating the effect of the cooldown is...hard.

The OH thing was mentioned because there are already a lot of choices for the MH, but an uninformed shaman might want to use Malchazeen because it feels like an upgrade when OH drops aren't coming from heroics.
#2051SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
I've got good news and bad news.

The good news is the old value for DST was a bit on the low side, with 40% uptime(I'd used 1.5 ppm since we didn't have uptime meter) and valuing haste at 2.2(I'd used 2.0 originally) the current version scores a whopping 300 AEP.

The bad news; I just finished testing DST uptime on the PTR(then on live for comparison) and according to my 30min test the proc rate has been lowered substantially. I measured 22.79% uptime over the 30mins. That seemed pretty startling so I repeated the test on the live realms and with identical gear and testing as close to the same as I can manage it scored 41.88%. I 'm sure the sample is small enough for there to be some pretty significant variation, but I'd be surprised if that much of a difference came down to chance.

For the testing I swapped out all my passive haste and haste-proc gear so the haste nerf itself should have a fairly minimal impact in the results. Here's the screenshots:

PTR - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-ptr.jpg
Live - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-live.jpg

If my results are an accurate assessment of the proc rate then the new score using 1.48 for haste(which I think is a bit high) would be about 150 AEP. If the lower proc rate had been noted elsewhere I apologize in advance for not seeing it.

ps. The new windfury graphic is terrible.
#2052SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Idioteque
With regard to the weapon choice discussion after the new patch,
would the best bt/hyjal weapon combo be Rising tide main hand and Syphon off, as you gain the benefit with a very marginally faster main hand and you gain the stats from the rising tide.

Any one have any ideas?
#2053SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Idioteque View Post
With regard to the weapon choice discussion after the new patch,
would the best bt/hyjal weapon combo be Rising tide main hand and Syphon off, as you gain the benefit with a very marginally faster main hand and you gain the stats from the rising tide.

Any one have any ideas?
The difference between RT/Syphon, Syphon/RT and Syphon/Syphon is marginal at best, different people achieved different results for the combos.
Technically having the Rising Tide in MH and Syphon in OH is superior over Syphon in MH.
Dual Syphon is fine too. The difference is well below 1% DPS, we're talking ~5 DPS max.

Last edited by Tornhoof : 09/01/07 at 7:24 AM.
#2054SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
And what is the consensus on DS/Syphon vs Rising tide/Syphon after the patch.

I would have thought the difference marginal but I don't recall any number crunching.
#2055SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3undefined
Looking for options on the Dragonstrike Mainhand now. After the Haste nurf would it be worth it to get a MainHand that offers Stats ?? More AP/Crit and some hit over the Haste proc on the weapon?
#2056SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
I finished reading the last 20 pages I missed during my vacation and I have some questions/ideas about what Yo! bring up (The AEP value of stats are different in each stat setup).

I'm thinking about an addon what calculates AEP values for every stat based on your current stats and prints the summary in each item's tooltip like Pawn's addon does. Is it possible to create a formula for the values of each stat based on the summary of the character's stats?
#2057SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3ewichern
Originally Posted by jamesf8604@yahoo.com View Post
Looking for options on the Dragonstrike Mainhand now. After the Haste nurf would it be worth it to get a MainHand that offers Stats ?? More AP/Crit and some hit over the Haste proc on the weapon?
I'd be interested in opinions on Drakefist/Dragonmaw/Dragonstrike post-patch as well. I was enhancement up until we started Kara, respecced Resto for a few months of raiding, and I'm back to enhancement trying to get my gear up to snuff.

I'm in the process of levelling up blacksmithing, I'm not an Orc, and I'm wondering whether I should go with Axesmith over Hammersmith after the haste (and apparent proc %) changes... any speculation/opinions?
#2058SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Makesha
Originally Posted by ewichern View Post
I'm in the process of levelling up blacksmithing, I'm not an Orc, and I'm wondering whether I should go with Axesmith over Hammersmith after the haste (and apparent proc %) changes... any speculation/opinions?
I'm really interested in this as well. We sort of had a huge discussion about this in my guild today, and the end result was that we agreed to disagree. Passive stats of Wicked Edge of the Planes vs. Haste proc of Dragonstrike, which is better after the patch? And is it a margin that matters hugely? (I mean, is one like 100 DPS better than the other on average, or are they both good bets for specialization?) I'd figure it out myself, but I'm not good enough at the math to do it..
#2059SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
Recently hit 375 BS and just finished making my Dragonmaw today, soon to be a Dragonstrike. I'd be interested in this aswell, *roughly guessing* the haste will just give a bit less haste right? Down to about 15% from 20%? Which is still pretty good I think.. but would be interested in what the number crunchers have to say about it.
#2060SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
hey guys-

I'm lookin for a link that shows the dps increase in group with a shaman in group. Either I'm blind or it isn't in the OP anymore. I think it was the chart that compared the GoA vs. Windfury. If someone can point me in the right direction of the post I'm seeking, it will be greatly appreciated
#2061SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nazgull
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Recently hit 375 BS and just finished making my Dragonmaw today, soon to be a Dragonstrike. I'd be interested in this aswell, *roughly guessing* the haste will just give a bit less haste right? Down to about 15% from 20%? Which is still pretty good I think.. but would be interested in what the number crunchers have to say about it.
13,45% (new) (2.2)
20,17% (Old) (before 2.2)

i got dragonstrike for long time now and 13.45% haste is enough for me to keep dragonstrike as MH and syphon as OH. no one actully gave answers about how good slower OH is vs slower MH, i think slower OH . tested it myself around 50-100dps more with slower OH in a 10 min mob bashing but again you cant be 100% sure this is why u need alot of shamans to test it
#2062SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
I've got good news and bad news.

The good news is the old value for DST was a bit on the low side, with 40% uptime(I'd used 1.5 ppm since we didn't have uptime meter) and valuing haste at 2.2(I'd used 2.0 originally) the current version scores a whopping 300 AEP.

The bad news; I just finished testing DST uptime on the PTR(then on live for comparison) and according to my 30min test the proc rate has been lowered substantially. I measured 22.79% uptime over the 30mins. That seemed pretty startling so I repeated the test on the live realms and with identical gear and testing as close to the same as I can manage it scored 41.88%. I 'm sure the sample is small enough for there to be some pretty significant variation, but I'd be surprised if that much of a difference came down to chance.

For the testing I swapped out all my passive haste and haste-proc gear so the haste nerf itself should have a fairly minimal impact in the results. Here's the screenshots:

PTR - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-ptr.jpg
Live - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-live.jpg

If my results are an accurate assessment of the proc rate then the new score using 1.48 for haste(which I think is a bit high) would be about 150 AEP. If the lower proc rate had been noted elsewhere I apologize in advance for not seeing it.

ps. The new windfury graphic is terrible.
I'd suggest you mention the DST change in Dragonspine Trophy Analysis as well (if it wasn't already mentioned there).
#2063SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drewkrodleman
If you guys find time, I need some advice... For the longest time I stayed with a slow mainhand and a fast offhand for two reasons:
1) Fast offhands were all that were available to me (good ones at least)
2) I did not honestly believe the math

Well my first week of kara I got emerald ripper and was pleasantly delighted. Put mongoose on it and stayed with that for 5 whole weeks. I then realized that my dps was barely scaling with my gear, so I came to these forums saw all the math and theorycrafting and decided to give it a go. So I bought a 2.6 speed LVL 67 63dps mace on the ah for a few gold, and I was absolutely SHOCKED at what happened. I began out damaging people in our guild who are FAR better geared and have much better weapons then me, consitantly (before it was random but I would always be fairly close to the #1). So then I started looking around for better offhands, and I realized that I am basically screwed. Ive become fairly apathetic to really putting a lot of effort into this game, so I realized that arenaing for 10weeks just to get a 97dps offhand, although worth it, may be too much work. I also looked at having runic hammer made, but saw that it was 2.4 speed, and dont really know if itll work well with a 2.6 speed mh.

Any suggestions? Should I just suck it up and try to scrap a decent arena rating and play 10 matches a week for that long just to get it (my guild wont be progressing to The Eye anytime soon), or should I just farm for a week or two, grab enough cash to have someone make runic hammer?

Also, thanks to you guys, I am basically 100% guaranteed a raiding spot as long as I show up because of my mad dps. I like humbling our decently geared fury warrior with my 2 not-as-amazing-weapons-as-his <3
#2064SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
♦ Aeolian
To the poster above me, there is a list of off hands in the original post, read it.

And if anyone comes up with some information on the Dragonstrike please post it, personally I'm taking the time before the patch to gather the materials for Wicked Edge. Don't know for sure yet, but I think I may make the switch. Going to play around with Dragonstrike on the PTR and see what happens.

Edit: Blizzard made my off-hand smaller. lol

Last edited by Aeolian : 09/01/07 at 6:28 PM.
#2065SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drewkrodleman
Oh yeah Didnt see that this weapon > this > that > these > those the first time i read the first page.

So I would do well just to quickly make the money and have someone make Runic hammer? Or would it be better to just truly grind out the arena points to get the merc glad one hands?
#2066SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
I'm still asking myself if Rod of the Sun King's slightly increased damage (and 20ap) is worth sacrifing the stats on Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver? I'm not only talking about 19crit- and 10hitrating but also about losing 33stamina.

While I see why Rising Tide and Syphon of the Nathrezim are upgrades (also even Rising Tide is giving me a hard time compared to Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver) Rod of the Sun King looks way weaker to me. Has this been discused yet?
#2067SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Bragor
Well the main problem with the Rod of the Sun king is that it has a proc that is utterly useless for shamans (Unless blizz changes the proc chance to provide mana).

Would like taking it over the fury warriors then ?

Also, If you have the option of getting the Rod... You have both the rising tide & syphon (Which are both better) Seeing that It's only 2 bosses diffrence & both bosses are easier then kael.

Last edited by Bragor : 09/01/07 at 6:36 PM. Reason: Clarfiying
#2068SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Aeolian
Just did some quick testing on the PTR and Live for overall DPS for a 10 minute period (basically a boss fight) for the Dragonstrike haste proc.

DPS on live showed 995.7 dps with a 27.47% uptime.
DPS on the PTR showed 944.1 dps with a 26.88% uptime.

This cant be taken as a perfect example of the nerf, but it shows it.

- Crit rate was right around 36% for both tests.
- Attack power was the same, no modifiers with the exception of Unleashed Rage.
- Unleashed Rage, Flurry and Lightning Speed proc rates would effect the outcome.
- No shocks were used.
- Grace of Air was the only totem used.

Used Recount, Uptime Meter and WF3sec for tracking purposes. Tried to follow the same "wait for the WF cooldown" rules for Stormstrike that I do during raids, but used it every time it was up.
#2069SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Whoah whoah... what's this about a new windfury graphic?
#2070SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Aeolian
Get on the PTR and play with it. =P

Basically its a darker vortex, its more black then gray, a bit more transparent and swirls up higher.
#2071SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bragor
Hey... Just got back from checking it.

It's like saying "HEY I GOT A WF PROC HERE".

Think I am gonna miss "Hey.. how the hell did you kill me ?" looks in pvp now ;/
#2072SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
So now that I've downloaded Pater's simulator and configured it, I am wondering how exactly I could utilize this to create my own Pawn string based on my gear level and buffs I typically have. Any advice, or in my following of this thread did I miss a how-to at some point?
#2073SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Wowzers
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
Get on the PTR and play with it. =P

Basically its a darker vortex, its more black then gray, a bit more transparent and swirls up higher.
The graphic also disappears in the middle of the animation, it looks horrible becuase of that.
#2074SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
♦ Kurisu
I'm uploading a video of it at the moment, ill link it in a second.

Windfury.avi - FileFront.com

Last edited by Kurisu : 09/02/07 at 3:47 AM.
#2075SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Freyj
+hit?

I am having a small issue here. I recently got asked by my guild to switch from resto to enhance (yay!), and I found this thread. Its excellent, but I am looking for a hard number answer. What is the minimum +hit for a shaman in MAG\SSC? I have about 153 (dont check my armory ATM, I had to heal for kara this weekend LOL), but thats because I put alot of those Rigid Dawnstones in my gear. About where should I be?
#2076SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
So now that I've downloaded Pater's simulator and configured it, I am wondering how exactly I could utilize this to create my own Pawn string based on my gear level and buffs I typically have. Any advice, or in my following of this thread did I miss a how-to at some point?
I don't remember it being covered before. What I use is a really simple spreadsheet which I've uploaded:

OpenOffice: http://grig.shackspace.com/enh-pawn.ods
Excel: http://grig.shackspace.com/enh-pawn.xls

Pretty much just fill in the gray boxes across the top with the stats you want to use then run each step through the sim and record the results in the gray column on the right. It doesn't spit out a properly formatted pawn string and it might have errors but it seems to work. A couple notes, it has the new value for haste, and it doesn't actually calculate the change in mitigation dynamically so the armor stuff is only accurate if you start at 30%. Also, if you don't use any passive haste you'll probably want to ignore it in there.
#2077SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by ewichern View Post
I'm in the process of levelling up blacksmithing, I'm not an Orc, and I'm wondering whether I should go with Axesmith over Hammersmith after the haste (and apparent proc %) changes... any speculation/opinions?
Based on the apparent value of weapon skill (first 5 points = 2-3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-dodge/anti-parry) and the availability of Mace/Axe skill (Mace found on at least one belt right now, Axe on nothing unless you've got the Orc racial), I'd have to say you should go for the mace. (The other advantage here is you can craft a Skillherald for PvP.)
#2078SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oldmandennis
Originally Posted by Freyj View Post
What is the minimum +hit for a shaman in MAG\SSC?
READ THE MOTHER FUCKING FIRST POST, THE SAME DAMN ANSWER ITS BEEN THE LAST 40 TIMES THAT QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED
#2079SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
...

I'm thinking about an addon what calculates AEP values for every stat based on your current stats and prints the summary in each item's tooltip like Pawn's addon does. Is it possible to create a formula for the values of each stat based on the summary of the character's stats?
Believe that creating the formula is to much of a hassle atm, there was someone who wanted to try Cobb-Douglas a few pages back if I recall correctly, no idea how that turned out so far. If someone do create a formula that holds it's water to Tornhoofs sim and Blasted Lands I'd stick it in Enhancer for sure though.

__________________
Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more)
RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin
#2080SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
A couple questions:

Been trying repetively to reset autoattack with T5 bonus but it doesn't seem to work at all. Next swing happens randomly (?).

Still, been trying to press autoattack when I'm already in melee range of the mob (so both weapons can hit since second 0) and still can't seem to get hits at the same time for same speed weapons. There has been any conclusion on this?
#2081SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
When are people going to stop claiming this.

No. That's not how the hit table works. Go to WoWwiki and search for Attack Table. Come back when you've educated yourself on it.
I'm sorry. I said up front that I didn't really know this stuff that well. Probably the reason people keep claiming that is because it is logical.

So, if I was rolling with 1250 AP, 24.5% crit, 9% hit from talents and 196 Hit rating, how much hit rating should I drop down to?
#2082SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Wowzers
Originally Posted by Abrax View Post
I'm sorry. I said up front that I didn't really know this stuff that well. Probably the reason people keep claiming that is because it is logical.

So, if I was rolling with 1250 AP, 24.5% crit, 9% hit from talents and 196 Hit rating, how much hit rating should I drop down to?
Don't worry about a set amount of hit you need to have. The best thing to do is to start upgrading to items that give you more AP/crit. These items will also usually have hit rating on them. That alone will be enough.
#2083SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Aeolian
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
A couple questions:

Been trying repetively to reset autoattack with T5 bonus but it doesn't seem to work at all. Next swing happens randomly (?).

Still, been trying to press autoattack when I'm already in melee range of the mob (so both weapons can hit since second 0) and still can't seem to get hits at the same time for same speed weapons. There has been any conclusion on this?
If I'm not mistaken (I could be, still trying to sober up) this was talked about a few pages back, or something similar to it. Even with weapons of the same attack speed, your main hand is going to swing first. The numbers will pop up one right after the other, but your main hand will hit first. Thats if you are running up to the mob, getting inside melee range and then hitting attack.

If I'm wrong someone please correct me.
#2084SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
just one quick question concerning t4 (and yes, i know it's not the best pieces of gear):
am I right to see the 4p bonus as a 8 dps increase at 30% crit (with 40 extra damage per weapon and ss swing)?
#2085SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Ujai View Post
just one quick question concerning t4 (and yes, i know it's not the best pieces of gear):
am I right to see the 4p bonus as a 8 dps increase at 30% crit (with 40 extra damage per weapon and ss swing)?
I've never tested it, but I'd guess that the dps increase would be:

40dmg/weap * 1.5 (dual weilding) * 1.30 (crit) * .94 (dodge) = 73.32 dmg/10sec
= 7.3 dps

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2086SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
It's an extra 30 damage per weapon, isn't it? Also, I don't think the offhand reduction applies to the bonus damage.
#2087SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
I can't test because I don't have the gear. If anyone could do so, that'd be nice. Grab 2 1.2 or 0.9 dps weapons, and it should be easy to see exactly how it works.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2088SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
Believe that creating the formula is to much of a hassle atm, there was someone who wanted to try Cobb-Douglas a few pages back if I recall correctly, no idea how that turned out so far. If someone do create a formula that holds it's water to Tornhoofs sim and Blasted Lands I'd stick it in Enhancer for sure though.
I was (am) the one trying to do that. The good news so far is that the sort of lin-log model necessary to create such a function has shown some great promise, with the r2 (or variability in dps explained by the model) above .9 (or 90%). The bad news is that so far the sample size has been kind of restricted and just barely enough to give satisfactory degrees of freedom, which means that I am still far from creating something "representative" enough for distribution (and, given time constraints, will not be able to do so in the near future).
#2089SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Giske
Sorry if this has already been answered in this thread, but I have a question regarding hit chance for enhancement shamans. Our resident enhancement shaman has 18% hit, 9% from talents and 9% from gear. We are however getting WWS parses of him having 14-15% miss on his white damage which we cant quite explain when rogues with equal hit% are getting 9-10% miss. And yes the rogue in question is made of suck for having so low +hit.

Has anyone else seen this and is there an explanation why?
#2090SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Giske View Post
Sorry if this has already been answered in this thread, but I have a question regarding hit chance for enhancement shamans. Our resident enhancement shaman has 18% hit, 9% from talents and 9% from gear. We are however getting WWS parses of him having 14-15% miss on his white damage which we cant quite explain when rogues with equal hit% are getting 9-10% miss. And yes the rogue in question is made of suck for having so low +hit.

Has anyone else seen this and is there an explanation why?
Is he attacking from behind?

Is it in Hyjal and he isnt being decursed?

Can you submit a WWS parse to look at?
#2091SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Giske
He is attacking from behind (standing next to rogues), its consistent in every instance.

I'll post some of our recent WWS:

Kael'thas, Vashj, Rage, Anetheron
Full TK clear
Full SSC clear

And yes, we suck at SSC.
#2092SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Cesar2000
Everything seems right... over the full SSC parse he's got 6% miss, 5% dodge, and 1% parry.

With 18% hit and a 24% cap, 6% miss is spot on. 5% dodge is of course also what it should be.
#2093SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Mano
hmm, I'm not totally sure how WWS works in this regard.

But I see he dropped some searing/magma/fire elemental/fire nova totems but there's no damage recorded for them.
IIRC I've recently seen SCT/SCTD float the searing totem's damage as "attack", which might lead to WWS parsing this damage as normal melee damage. But as it is spell damage it would probably suffer from the normal spell hit penalty against higher level targets, which might explain the miss rate.

Edit: or not (see next post).

Last edited by Mano : 09/03/07 at 11:20 AM.
#2094SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Giske
Its not really feasible to record damage from those since there are several shamans in the raid, the values would be all wrong.

And omg, I cant believe I didnt notice that WWS sums up miss, dodge and parry into one %. I feel really stupid now. ><

Sorry for the idiot question.
#2095SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Cownoris
Has any analysis been done of the new WF totem mechanic?

Now that it can only proc on white attacks or special attacks that use your normal attack (e.g. heroic strike) how does it compare to Agi totem?

If anyone has solid numbers of how much dps it provides to different classes/specs I'd appreciate it.
#2096SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ vank
You do not have to read but a few pages back to find the answers you seek.
#2097SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mr Tazza
Hey guys, I got Kaz'Rogal down for the first time today, but experienced some really serious mana problems.

I have about 7500 mana raidbuffed, and I went like this:

- 1st mark: super mana pot
- 2nd: SR
- 3rd: both on cooldown
- 4th: super mana pot just in time
- 5th: couldn't keep up and exploded

I wasn't using any shock during the fight to conserve mana, and JoW was up.

How do you do it? I don't think Demonic Runes are enough to keep up anyway, the only thing I can think about is running out and suiciding after 4th mark
#2098SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Mr Tazza View Post
Hey guys, I got Kaz'Rogal down for the first time today, but experienced some really serious mana problems.

I have about 7500 mana raidbuffed, and I went like this:

- 1st mark: super mana pot
- 2nd: SR
- 3rd: both on cooldown
- 4th: super mana pot just in time
- 5th: couldn't keep up and exploded

I wasn't using any shock during the fight to conserve mana, and JoW was up.

How do you do it? I don't think Demonic Runes are enough to keep up anyway, the only thing I can think about is running out and suiciding after 4th mark
Post a WWS to see if your paladin was keeping JoW up full time. Another thought is to wear a piece or two of shadow resist, I just wear the BT neck and I sometimes resist up to 3 mana burns a fight.
#2099SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Sebudai
I wear a couple pieces of SR gear. Using the Super Mana Potion after the first unresisted mark is correct, but I wouldn't use SR until you've taken two more unresisted marks after the first. SR is a full mana bar for me, easily, and using it when you're down only 3000-4000 mana is a waste.

Lastly, make sure you're using Mana Shield and getting JoW.
#2100SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Patrik
I'm wearing few sr items (even ±120sr makes this fight quite a different experience) and I personally am using fel mana potions, which work just great.

Last edited by Patrik : 09/04/07 at 2:47 AM.
#1306SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3falonub
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Latest PTR change -
* Ankhs now stack to ten.

Game breaking mechanic right there folks.

Does anyone carry that many ankhs with them? I never take more than a 5 stack.
I'm guilty of carrying 10 on me =( I do pop a lot in bgs though XD. But having 20 on me will be nice as I do forget to re-stock
#1307SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
I just did some 2hours of testing / farming...

i started auto attacking from range on the first mob, then starting auto attack after i get hit 1 time on the second mob.. and back and forth each mob.

I can pretty much confirm that starting from range start the OH attack first, and starting in range start the MH attack first. WF procs are also skewed a lot more on the first swinger of each avaible swing set.

OH WF procs could only happen if the MH failed, so 20% of 80% of the eligible time, when i started auto attacking inside melee range. The variation of DPS was pretty significant, depending on wich hand i had going first.

- I didn't use heals during battle so i don't know yet if casting can de-sync or re-sync this.
- Stormstrike looked like it was processing first wichever hand is going first in auto attack.
- Didn't test shock, but since it doesn't reset swing timer i assumed it not changing anything. (i'll try throwing shocks in the mix later)

Anyone else has similar results?
#1308SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I tested it a few times in heroic mech a little bit ago, same results as you. Definitely appears to make the OH swing first if you autoattack out of melee range.
#1309SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Also from the updated notes:

* Crypt Fiends around Azeroth and at Hyjal Summit are now more totem friendly.
#1310SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lorven
two handed weapons?

Is there any circumstances where an enhancement Shaman would use a two handed weapon instead of dual weild, like against a not purgable DS. I dont think there is but thought Id ask. By the way thanks for the great info making me rethink a lot on my gear, tactics and a minor twink to my enhance build.

Lorven
#1311SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Lorven View Post
Is there any circumstances where an enhancement Shaman would use a two handed weapon instead of dual weild, like against a not purgable DS. I dont think there is but thought Id ask. By the way thanks for the great info making me rethink a lot on my gear, tactics and a minor twink to my enhance build.

Lorven
Well, in pve for kael'thas you may use the legendary 2h axe but that'd probably only be for the speed buff it has.. in general, I don't think in pve you'd ever want to use 2h besides that. For pvp however, 2h can give you some quite nice burst potential and could possibly be the right choice. However you need a completely different set of gear than in pve (since all that +hit you probably have should be replaced with more stamina/resilience/str/crit etc)
#1312SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Mirken View Post
Is it really advisable to heed lootzor and take mostly leather gear for a shaman and lose the extra armor? Secondly, from what I am seeing, intellect and mp/5 are generally not deciding factors on gear. How much attention do I need to pay to intel? I'd like to work on my leatherworking to eventually obtain the ebon netherscale set, but I don't want to waste my time with this if leather is going to be a better option.
For T4 loot (heroics/Kara/Gruul/Mag), the leather pieces are almost always better. If you have the choice between a leather and a mail piece from T4, the leather piece is going to have superior melee stats, and the mail piece is going to have int/mp5. Two-piece T4 is worthwhile because of the set bonus, but other than that leather is the way to go.

Past T4, the difference isn't as clear. Comparing T5 hunter gear vs T5 rogue gear, the rogue gear typically has hit and more stamina, whereas the hunter gear has int and more crit. Crit is a better use of item budget for shamans than hit, so the melee DPS loss from wearing mail over leather is minimal to nonexistant. By this gear level your mana pool also starts becoming more important, as you actually have enough AP to refill a larger mana bar.


To further illustrate the point, compare Chestguard of the Conniver - Items - World of Warcraft vs Scaled Breastplate of Carnage - Items - World of Warcraft, both Nightbane drops. The leather piece is solid; the mail piece is garbage. Now compare Swiftstrike Shoulders - Items - World of Warcraft vs Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes - Items - World of Warcraft, both BoP craftables from BT patterns. The two are so similar that my choice came down to which one I thought was less hideous.
#1313SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nazgull
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
When your hasted, flurried weapon speed drops below 1.5, it is theoretically possible to do less damage than if it was above 1.5 due to the fact 3 swings will not be eligible for WF to proc instead of 2. However, if haste drops you below 1.4 your damage should pick back up again. As far as applying this theory to current itemization, this appears to mean that you primarily just need to be sure that passive haste + flurry + Mongoose doesn't push you under 1.5, because large haste procs like DST and Dragonstrike, and large haste use effects like Bloodlust and Haste Potions will be large enough to increase your DPS no matter where you are on the Haste curve (for example, if your weapon speed is 2.0 and Heroism pushes you down to 1.43, that's still going to be a net DPS increase even though you may lose some WF damage).
--


flurry+2 moongose procs + dragonstrike proc >1.51 its around 1.6~ i go under 1.51 speed only with bl on which ofc happen once every blue moon

i use dragonstrike on mh and netherzim on oh and dragonstrike tbh isnt proccing alot (less then 10%)but its the best pve mh no item can replace the haste proc unless you have dragonspine from gruul ( never drop for me )
nothing is better then 1.2 mh and 1.3 oh its just crazy dps if u leave the wf for sec if u doing over 1k dmg in 1 crit with mh and like 500+ with oh( if u have like 40% crit buffed) can cover any wf that doesnt proc
#1314SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tambard
Wondering a few things...

Excellent post! I learned a lot from reading it, and I'm very appreciative that you took the time to write this. I do still have a few questions. I attempted to search the forums for information, but I wasn't able to find anything...

Why do many Enhancement Shaman spec into Restoration with their extra points? I believe it was originally for the Hit Rating and possibly enhanced Ankh, but this guide reveals Hit Rating to be less important than originally thought, is that still the best way to spec? If so, why?

And I saw a lot of theory (which makes a lot of sense) on why a faster OH is a poor choice when applying Windfury to both weapons... But I am currently using the Runic Hammer with Flame Tongue in my Main and Malchazeen with Windfury in my offhand... How much of an increase would I be looking at if I slid the Runic Hammer to my offhand and got say... Fool's Bane in my main hand?
#1315SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
Excellent post! I learned a lot from reading it, and I'm very appreciative that you took the time to write this. I do still have a few questions. I attempted to search the forums for information, but I wasn't able to find anything...

Why do many Enhancement Shaman spec into Restoration with their extra points? I believe it was originally for the Hit Rating and possibly enhanced Ankh, but this guide reveals Hit Rating to be less important than originally thought, is that still the best way to spec? If so, why?

And I saw a lot of theory (which makes a lot of sense) on why a faster OH is a poor choice when applying Windfury to both weapons... But I am currently using the Runic Hammer with Flame Tongue in my Main and Malchazeen with Windfury in my offhand... How much of an increase would I be looking at if I slid the Runic Hammer to my offhand and got say... Fool's Bane in my main hand?
1.3% hit and spell hit are good. Hit is not the optimal way to increase DPS over Str or Crit, but it still increases dps by a good margin. In addition, improved Ankh helps as a "aggro wipe", and Healing focus allow you to actually toss out a couple of spot heals. Of course, all these might change with the new Enhancement Talents

You'll see a pretty decent chunk of DPs increase if you go with the later setup, the damage will be more spikey, however. So you need to test extensively to see accurate results
#1316SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tambard
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
1.3% hit and spell hit are good. Hit is not the optimal way to increase DPS over Str or Crit, but it still increases dps by a good margin. In addition, improved Ankh helps as a "aggro wipe", and Healing focus allow you to actually toss out a couple of spot heals. Of course, all these might change with the new Enhancement Talents

You'll see a pretty decent chunk of DPs increase if you go with the later setup, the damage will be more spikey, however. So you need to test extensively to see accurate results
Ah! Thank you very much.
#1317SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Prism of Inner Calm was buffed to -150 threat per crit somewhat recently. I still can't pull aggro on bosses even if I try though; so I can't see a reason to use it anywhere but on trash.
#1318SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Recently? Its been 150 ever since the last patch. It was -50 when TBC was released.
#1319SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Do people actually use Reincarnate as a poor man's Vanish? I have never once actually overaggrod on purpose just so I can Reincarnate and start over threat-wise. There isn't really a fight in which I'm threat capped anyway, let alone enough of them to singlehandedly justify putting points into this talent.

Reincarnate is one of the huge advantages of our class. I put points into this talent because being able to Reincarnate more often and coming back with more hp and mana has been the difference between winning and losing on a lot of encounters for us over the years. I'm pretty sure all five of our shaman spec into this talent.
#1320SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
But I am currently using the Runic Hammer with Flame Tongue in my Main and Malchazeen with Windfury in my offhand... How much of an increase would I be looking at if I slid the Runic Hammer to my offhand and got say... Fool's Bane in my main hand?
Doing the switch for WF on both hands, with Fool's bane and Runic Hammer would give you a pretty huge boost. Specially considering you don't put WF on your main hand, i must say, i really don't see why you'd ever want to use the combo you are using, with these choices of weapon imbue..

Mind enlightening me on why you chose to wield this combo?
#2226SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by SardonicJoe1 View Post
you set the damage done by dexterity equal to the damage GAINED by the minor run speed, NOT the actual damage done.
I'm fairly certain that's not what I did, not to mention that the derivation used is simply a copy of a formula derived pre-TBC that was widely accepted.
#2227SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ekto
Originally Posted by SardonicJoe1 View Post
this is completely wrong. in your first equation, you set the wrong quantities equal to each other. you set the damage done by dexterity equal to the damage GAINED by the minor run speed, NOT the actual damage done. hence your incorrect conclusion. the following is the correct derivation...


A = dps offered by 1 agility
T = total dps time for a boss fight (this does not include times where melee must stop dps, like running out of RoF on azgalor, but it DOES include the time you spend outside of melee range when there is no fire)
t = total time spent outside of melee range, during which you COULD have been dpsing (see above example)

over the course of the fight, dexterity will be responsible for the following amount of damage...

12 A (T - t)

over the course of the fight, cats swiftness (6agi+minor speed) will be responsible for the following amount of damage...

6 A (T - t') = 6 A (T - t/1.08)

so lets suppose that cats swiftness is better than dexterity and see what conditions T and t must satisfy for that to be true...

6A(T-t/1.08) > 12A(T-t)

...now you cancel out the A (so it really doesn't matter how much dps 1agi gives, just the assumption that 1agi gives a static amount of dps), and do some algebra to obtain...

T < (2-1/1.08)t ===> T < 1.074 t

so cats swiftness is better than dexterity if and only if the total time of the fight is LESS THAN 1.074 times the time you would normally spend outside of melee range. clearly, this condition is never satisfied on a normal boss fight. for example, on a 5 minute fight, you would have had to spend 4 minutes and 39 seconds outside of melee range for cats swiftness to be worthwhile.

please correct this on the front page for those thinking that minor run speed is worth getting.
apologies...in my haste i also made a grave error. it should read...

i should consider the total dps and not just the incremental changes. let D be your dps without a boot enchant. then for the minor run speed to be better we need the following...

(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)

which simplifies to


T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)


where k = 1/1.08. my model, for example, gives A = .16286, and so we have

T < (.07581D + 1.074) t

so i was off by that extra term - 0.07581D. so lets use some actual data. i believe i do between 900 and 1000 dps on azgalor. so for that fight, we have

T < 76.88t

the fight lasts for about 5-6 minutes i think. so for 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds, which are conditions certainly met on azgalor.

so the original poster on this topic has a correct conclusion but slightly flawed derivation.
#2228SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
Leather, leather, leather. Period. The armor mail gives you is minimally better than leather, and not worth it. If you were resto or elemental, then your shield makes it worth sticking with mail, but as enhancement, you don't need the INT or MP5 that your gear gives you, so go with leather in almost EVERY situation.

And I agree with what others said... there is no one stat to increase, just get items with the most AEP.
I prefer mail for one simple reason: Rogues get far more out of their gear than we do. A rogue and an enhancement shaman in the exact same leather gear, the rogue will come out better on top every time. If a leather piece drops and a rogue needs it, they get first crack. If a mail piece drops, screw hunters. Seriously. Many mail pieces are also actually superior to the equivalent tier leather for us. Right now I'd consider wearing only 1 piece of leather from Black Temple: Cursed Vision and one piece from SSC: Belt of One Hundred Deaths.

You're also going to be fighting with rogues for trinkets, especially Dragonspine Trophy. It's worth laying off their leather to keep equal footing for some trinkets, cloaks and jewelry. The whole thing is really dependent on the way your guild handles loot and the players involved anyway.
#2229SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by SardonicJoe1 View Post
the fight lasts for about 5-6 minutes i think. so for 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds, which are conditions certainly met on azgalor.

so the original poster on this topic has a correct conclusion but slightly flawed derivation.
I can't think of a fight that its not met for. KZ maybe not so much. But a 25 man boss? Every one of them involves movement to some degree greater than 4 seconds.
#2230SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3MrProcrastin8
Sorry to still be the forum noob, but, to help convince my guildies, I'm going to do the tests myself. But I need help on exactly how to do it. I'm doing 5 minute tests in the blasted lands. I'm just putting on autoattack while having healing stream and stoneskin down to help survive the 5 minutes. I'm not stormstriking, because I don't think my mana can sustain for that long. So far, I'm getting better results with the two daggers. I know not stormstriking may have something to do with that, but not sure how to figure that in without going oom. Also, I figure I have to do each test more than once, I'm thinking 3 of each should be sufficient.

There's obviously something I'm missing. Help
#2231SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I can't think of a fight that its not met for. KZ maybe not so much. But a 25 man boss? Every one of them involves movement to some degree greater than 4 seconds.
Reliquary of Souls, Anetheron, and ideally Na'jentus and Teron require zero movement. You shouldn't have to move on Naj since you should be in click range of the people next to you for spines, and running out on Teron is very infrequent, it's better to be safe when you get shadow and get out with enough time to spare than to risk staying in too long and dying too close to him.

Originally Posted by MrProcrastin8 View Post

There's obviously something I'm missing. Help
Water shield returns enough mana for a Stormstrike in roughly 10 seconds. Between spirit ticks and Water shield, you'll never run out of mana just SSing.
#2232SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
More attacks = more chance to proc. Meaning that by excluding 2 attacks every 10 seconds via Stormstrike it is possible that you are seeing better results with the faster weapons (judging by your crit rate flurry is probably up 50%?, pretty unfair to exclude SS in this kind of test). It's been tested more times than people have asked, "WILL FT BE BETTER OH LOLZ????", but each person needs to do the tests themselves to be satisfied. Good luck to you on your endeavors!
#2233SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by MrProcrastin8 View Post
Sorry to still be the forum noob, but, to help convince my guildies, I'm going to do the tests myself. But I need help on exactly how to do it.
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
#2234SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hozzer
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Actually Strawberry (I think?) asked about this a few pages back with the Reflex blades, and after testing he found exactly what I told him - that the Reflex in MH and an AH green 2.6 was better than either of the epic daggers. I'd hang onto them for whenever those shaman talent changes come out just in case though.
When I saw this I immediately went to the first post to make sure one of the mantras of enhancement itemization I'd been sticking to steadfastly hadn't changed:

The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is extremely detrimental to shaman DPS. The fast OH is more likely to hit again after a WF cooldown and therefore has the first opportunity to proc a new WF and trigger the cooldown again. OH interference prevents MH WF procs and thus reduces your DPS. It has been shown that this cooldown interference is so severe that replacing an epic dagger OH with a green or blue 2.6 speed OH will actually increase your DPS. (Again, despite this problem, it is still preferrable to have WF on the OH. Any WF proc, even on the OH, will result in more DPS over time than FlameTongue or Rockbiter on the OH.)
The only reason this immediately came to mind is that when Reflex Blades dropped for me, I immediately set about to find an oppropriate offhand, ideally something 2.7 or 2.8 speed. I found, I'm sure to no one's surprise, that a suitable weapon did not exist before BT/MTH, so I stuck with Mag'hari Fury Brand MH/2.6 Green OH. Was this a mistake?

I've been adhering to the premise that the offhand must be as slow as or slower than the mainhand slavishly. Should this be tested further? If an offhand weapon that is .1 or .2 seconds faster is not appreciably detrimental to our DPS, but one that is 1 second or more is, does that mean that any combination of weapons above 2.0 speed (or rather above 1.5 speed when hasted) probably ok?
#2235SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by hozzer View Post
When I saw this I immediately went to the first post to make sure one of the mantras of enhancement itemization I'd been sticking to steadfastly hadn't changed:



The only reason this immediately came to mind is that when Reflex Blades dropped for me, I immediately set about to find an oppropriate offhand, ideally something 2.7 or 2.8 speed. I found, I'm sure to no one's surprise, that a suitable weapon did not exist before BT/MTH, so I stuck with Mag'hari Fury Brand MH/2.6 Green OH. Was this a mistake?

I've been adhering to the premise that the offhand must be as slow as or slower than the mainhand slavishly. Should this be tested further? If an offhand weapon that is .1 or .2 seconds faster is not appreciably detrimental to our DPS, but one that is 1 second or more is, does that mean that any combination of weapons above 2.0 speed (or rather above 1.5 speed when hasted) probably ok?

You do not need to find OH that is slower than MH. You need to find OH as slow as possible - feel the difference Out of 3 weapons that you have the best combo is Reflex MH + Mag'hari Fury Brand OH.
Go to Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo put your stats in and change weapon speeds - you will see how it works.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/06/07 at 8:47 PM.
#2236SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Hey all...I can't seem to find the chart that shows group gains from a shaman. I believe there was a chart that compared GoA vs. Windfury. If someone can link me a chart that shows dps gains from shaman buffs, I'd love that. Ty in advance.

(I'm trying to show raid leader that having the druid in my group is more dps than another rogue while putting the druid in a group with 2 hunters lol).
#2237SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Ayror View Post
(I'm trying to show raid leader that having the druid in my group is more dps than another rogue while putting the druid in a group with 2 hunters lol).
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this right, but I think you might be trying to find justification to have GoA in your group?
#2238SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ayror View Post
Hey all...I can't seem to find the chart that shows group gains from a shaman. I believe there was a chart that compared GoA vs. Windfury. If someone can link me a chart that shows dps gains from shaman buffs, I'd love that. Ty in advance.

(I'm trying to show raid leader that having the druid in my group is more dps than another rogue while putting the druid in a group with 2 hunters lol).
War/rog/rog/rog or war/sham and hunter/hunter/X/X/feral will out perform war/feral/rog/rog/sham and hunter/hunter/x/x/x 9 times out of 10. Time 10 is when you're doing Gurtogg and a hunter/hunter/shadowp/resto sham/x group is an excellent bloodboil group and having a feral with your shaman means higher threat. Enhancement shamans should NEVER BE DROPPING GOA IN RAIDS realistically, leave that for the resto shamans.
#2239SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
lol i would never drop goa in raid. I was just referencing that chart cause it had the stats on it.
#2240SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Hey I was browsing over my atlas loot last night checking out the tier 6 pieces in more detail and it occured to me that the itemization on tier 6 is quite different to tier 5. Tier 6 pieces drop a bit of hit rating and pick up more on crit and for some very odd reason, mp5. Is this possibly because blizzard has not changed it like they did with tier 4/5 earlier on in the year? And if so I wonder when they are going to change it.

At the moment I have 4/5 tier 5 and the 4 set bonus is just so good I can;t get over it, looking at the t6 set bonuses makes my eyes burn, like what do I need 10% off the shock costs with the up coming changes to shaman talents? And why would 70 more attack power be better than 5% more attack speed?

Tier 6 just seems somewhat inferior to tier 5 in regards to itemization, the only piece I am going to want is the legs as they are vastly superior to the tier 5 ones.

Has anyone else taken note of this yet? I am just wondering if my thoughts are correct because I am trying to get my head around what my end game raiding set will be.
#2241SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
for example, on a 5 minute fight, you would have had to spend 4 minutes and 39 seconds outside of melee range for cats swiftness to be worthwhile.
I am really impressed that you thought this could possibly be the correct answer with this kind of an example.

I'm doing 5 minute tests in the blasted lands.
Don't do this. The Blasted Lands NPCs will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever return accurate results when doing DPS comparisons involving Windfury. Try it on real bosses or at least even level mobs.
#2242SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Muj View Post
Hey I was browsing over my atlas loot last night checking out the tier 6 pieces in more detail and it occured to me that the itemization on tier 6 is quite different to tier 5. Tier 6 pieces drop a bit of hit rating and pick up more on crit and for some very odd reason, mp5. Is this possibly because blizzard has not changed it like they did with tier 4/5 earlier on in the year? And if so I wonder when they are going to change it.

At the moment I have 4/5 tier 5 and the 4 set bonus is just so good I can;t get over it, looking at the t6 set bonuses makes my eyes burn, like what do I need 10% off the shock costs with the up coming changes to shaman talents? And why would 70 more attack power be better than 5% more attack speed?

Tier 6 just seems somewhat inferior to tier 5 in regards to itemization, the only piece I am going to want is the legs as they are vastly superior to the tier 5 ones.

Has anyone else taken note of this yet? I am just wondering if my thoughts are correct because I am trying to get my head around what my end game raiding set will be.
The exact same question was asked a few pages ago.
#2243SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Teirz
I wouldn't say NEVER drop GOA, but is situational for some mobile fight. For example for lurker fight my guild is using rouge/enh shaman to tank the adds so basically our melee group are all spread out beside maybe a rogue/war will be near me. Overall dps would be better by using goa than wf consider that for most time wf only benefits 1 rogue and while goa push both yourself and the rogue resulting a better dps output overall.

It's really depends on grouping and the fight itself.

A question to Shabadu, have you tested on belt of one-hundred death for the weapon skill thingy? I assume it should be the best belt for non-orc enh shaman in my earlier post but i will need some testing to make sure it is true.

Last edited by Teirz : 09/07/07 at 2:55 AM.
#2244SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
The only fight I can drop GOA is Illidari Council. I get 2 hunters, a rogue and a tanking druid in my group. All other melee is tanking or interrupting heals so they don't really need WF because their damage is low anyway.
#2245SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Kaubel
Originally Posted by Ayror View Post
lol.
Don't do this.

Ever.
#2246SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
TradewindKlaatubarada
I liked the sim. I found interesting that at higher level gear, crit gets it's value down. AP is a safe addition all the time. I've socketed all my BT/MH gear with red gems (ignoring +agil bonuses) and then socketed Belt of One-Hundred Deaths with green/blue gems, since I'll keep it for a long time. Altough I could've switched it with a red gem somewhere else, I'll keep the blue/green requirements for metagem there since I doubt I'll change that piece in a long time, whilst socketing +10 STR gems all over other parts.

Interesting data:

AP=3200
Crit=32%
Hit=23%

AP=1
CR=2,16%
HR=1,83%
HaR=2,15%
STR=2,2
Agil=2,1
AP=3400
Crit=40%
Hit=23%

AP=1
CR=1,97%
HR=2,12%
HaR=1,13%
STR=2,2
Agil=1,91
Weird behaviour? hit over crit in value?
AP=3600
Crit=45%
Hit=23%

AP=1
CR=1,56%
HR=1,39%
HaR=0,54%
STR=2,2
Agil=1,52
I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit) and looking forward putting all my gems into STR. I'm hoping to get 45% crit soon when I loot some more agility items and switch some other stuff over, while maintaining 3500 AP due to gems.

Always choosing best AEP gear + socketing STR gems no matter what seems the way to go. Also looking forward to +damage/heal from AP. Definitely STR rocks the charts.

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 09/07/07 at 9:57 AM.
#2247SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Teirz View Post
I wouldn't say NEVER drop GOA, but is situational for some mobile fight. For example for lurker fight my guild is using rouge/enh shaman to tank the adds so basically our melee group are all spread out beside maybe a rogue/war will be near me. Overall dps would be better by using goa than wf consider that for most time wf only benefits 1 rogue and while goa push both yourself and the rogue resulting a better dps output overall.

It's really depends on grouping and the fight itself.

A question to Shabadu, have you tested on belt of one-hundred death for the weapon skill thingy? I assume it should be the best belt for non-orc enh shaman in my earlier post but i will need some testing to make sure it is true.

Nope, we haven't been back to Vashj in months. Thank god I got the prism when I did.

For lurker we have 2 prot warriors and a feral, so the melee are always in the center platform dpsing the male nagas. On council we go with myself, a rogue and a dps warrior on gaithos full time and the veras feral or warrior, and a PoH priest who deals with gaithos tank healing and group healing for the melee. Being on Gaithos full time I often have to twist tranquil so GoA would be non-viable. The hunters in our guild have a campaign to get the resto shamans to spec Imp GoA, since they only get them.
#2248SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Teirz View Post
A question to Shabadu, have you tested on belt of one-hundred death for the weapon skill thingy? I assume it should be the best belt for non-orc enh shaman in my earlier post but i will need some testing to make sure it is true.
I'm interested in this question as well. Is it better than [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Boneweave Girdle]?
#2249SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
I'm interested in this question as well. Is it better than [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Boneweave Girdle]?
It is, from my experience.

Edit: remember not to use axes tho
#2250SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
I'm interested in this question as well. Is it better than [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Boneweave Girdle]?
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I from 2 pages ago. I use double Syphon in most circumstances so it'd be pretty huge for me. Talon of Alar/Syphon with the belt would be a decent combo after the patch too I suppose.
#2301SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
T.K.
Sup all,

Hey, we've been discussing the relation between Syphon/RT and such, but i didn't see any numbers with Strike/RT - Strike/Syphon in the way to point us if we should swap the Strike (for those BS out there) for the RT when we get the chance to it or not.

I know the RT get's a higher AEP value than the Strike, but the proc now, before nerf, seems very overhealming to me. So, as people asked that and got no real focused answer on it (threads own minds, anyway), could we stick with this?

Like, once u get the chance to grab RT, Syphon, should we change MH Strike for any of them or not or use Strike MH and RT OH or Syphon OH, anyway...

Numbers?

Edit: Just saw Stigmata armory and saw he's still using Strike in MH with Syphon OH. I was thinking about using the RT at offhand, but i'm in doubt as the Syphon speed is just lewt. any of u guys tried for RT OH compared to Syphon OH both with Strike at MH?

Last edited by T.K. : 09/08/07 at 3:13 AM. Reason: Wrong name of OH
#2302SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by T.K. View Post
Sup all,

Hey, we've been discussing the relation between Syphon/RT and such, but i didn't see any numbers with Strike/RT - Strike/Syphon in the way to point us if we should swap the Strike (for those BS out there) for the RT when we get the chance to it or not.

I know the RT get's a higher AEP value than the Strike, but the proc now, before nerf, seems very overhealming to me. So, as people asked that and got no real focused answer on it (threads own minds, anyway), could we stick with this?

Like, once u get the chance to grab RT, Syphon, should we change MH Strike for any of them or not or use Strike MH and RT OH or Syphon OH, anyway...

Numbers?

Edit: Just saw Stigmata armory and saw he's still using Strike in MH with Syphon OH. I was thinking about using the RT at offhand, but i'm in doubt as the Syphon speed is just lewt. any of u guys tried for RT OH compared to Syphon OH both with Strike at MH?
I am having a hard time understanding why people refuse to read, or at least skim through pages to find that their questions have been asked and responded to over and over again. All of the weapon combos have been tested pre haste nerf, the information is all here; just look for it.
#2303SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beowolf
/wave *just showing off new sig :P*
#2304SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hellraiser
I was curious, is haste rating on items stil as important after the patch ?, i mean item's like Bindings of Lightning Reflexes or Valestalker Girdle wouldend it be beter to replace them with others?
#2305SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Sebudai
I believe this has been posted in this thread already, but haste rating after the patch is about as valuable to us as hit rating is now.
#2306SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
Yes I was taking into account UR (100% uptime) and Ashtongue Talisman (80-90%).

I never stated to have 45% crit whilst having 3500 AP, those were stats I made out to point how crit decreased damage when stacked too much (using Yo's sim). I said: "I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit)"

Here's the screen; discount both mongooses, add flask and str food. That's the 34xx AP and 38-40% crit I was talking about. And the screen is missing Bow Stitched Leggings with x3 +10 STR gems btw.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4...idbuffssj0.jpg
#2307SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
Yes I was taking into account UR (100% uptime) and Ashtongue Talisman (80-90%).

I never stated to have 45% crit whilst having 3500 AP, those were stats I made out to point how crit decreased damage when stacked too much (using Yo's sim). I said: "I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit)"

Here's the screen; discount both mongooses, add flask and str food. That's the 34xx AP and 38-40% crit I was talking about. And the screen is missing Bow Stitched Leggings with x3 +10 STR gems btw.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4...idbuffssj0.jpg
3131+120+40+16= 3307, not quite 3500. I was under the impression that it was common knowledge that AP is the best scaling stat, so I'm having a hard time grasping what the original intent of your post was.
#2308SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by rava View Post
3131+120+40+16= 3307, not quite 3500. I was under the impression that it was common knowledge that AP is the best scaling stat, so I'm having a hard time grasping what the original intent of your post was.
No, I reached 34xx. Something's wrong on your math, or you are not taking into account something.

My original post was all about how agility (or crit rating) loses value at some point, then regains it. It was specifically about Yo's sim that shows some weird behaviour. Yes, agility is expected to lose value the higher crit gets, but no, it is not expected to go down then go up again (afaik).

EDIT: on a sidenote, regarding Ashtongue Talisman. It doesn't affect Stormstrike at all (procs after, ends before) but does affect a WF triggered by Stormstrike? Haven't been able to determine this via combat log.

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 09/08/07 at 7:29 AM.
#2309SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
Thats because your list doesnt give any value to +skill and +haste. The +skill makes the belt by far the best in the game currently. (and thats with most formulas possibly even underestimating +skill if I'm not misinformed)
No list is perfect. I did not even try to give a value for weapon skill, haste or reducing armor for example. I see these lists only as a personal help to see what pieces might suit your current need and what alternatives there are.

As long as you are wearing Axes the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths is not very interesting for example. And with the upcoming haste nerf I probably won't wear a single haste rating item. Most lists are also not taking stamina into account even though you need a lot of it in HS/BT.
#2310SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Guldkrull
I was wondering if you guys consider it worth to get the merciless gladi helm instead of t4 helm or is it just a waste of points? And if the veteran bracers is better compared to the stalker bands from attumen in kara? This is probably 2 shit questions but i'm trying to get a gear together so i can start raid as an enhancement shaman.

Last edited by Guldkrull : 09/08/07 at 8:01 AM.
#2311SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Guldkrull View Post
I was wondering if you guys consider it worth to get the merciless gladi helm instead of t4 helm or is it just a waste of points? And if the veteran bracers is better compared to the stalker bands from attumen in kara? This is probably 2 shit questions but i'm trying to get a gear together so i can start raid as an enhancement shaman.
On the first page, you have values for every important stat for an Enhancement shaman. Go there, take those values and do some maths on the items you're trying to compare. You can easily answer yourself.
#2312SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Guldkrull
I think it's more of a matter of opinion. What i rly want to know is if you guys think it's worth to spend the arena points for the merciless helmet or just wait for the t4 head to drop and if it's worth to spend the honor points on the veteran bracer or just keep the bracers from attumen. It's not rly what i said but it was what i meant.
#2313SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Farnite
So has anyone modeled the [Crystalforged Trinket]? Just curious, not sure how I should value + weapon damage.

Thanks
#2314SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3LazyJoe
Well it's really easy, just divide the amount of +damage by your weapon speed, you get the corresponding dps gain, multiply this by 14 and you will get the equivalent in attack power.

If you wear a 2.6 speed weapon, you get :

7 / 2.6 = 2.69 dps

2.69 * 14 = 37.36 attack power
#2315SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by LazyJoe View Post
Well it's really easy, just divide the amount of +damage by your weapon speed, you get the corresponding dps gain, multiply this by 14 and you will get the equivalent in attack power.

If you wear a 2.6 speed weapon, you get :

7 / 2.6 = 2.69 dps

2.69 * 14 = 37.36 attack power
Yous should also multiply it with a certain haste factor, like 1.2x for common flurry uptime.
#2316SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
Yous should also multiply it with a certain haste factor, like 1.2x for common flurry uptime.
Uh why? :o I don't think you should, he's trying to compare it to AP which is effectively a flat damage increase on your weapon based upon base weapon speed, AP doesn't change how much dmg it adds per hit when you haste your weapons..

However, you have to take account of the Offhand too. If both weapons are the same speed, the calculation given would be correct however if they aren't it's slightly different. Also, is the bonus halved on the offhand or not? I have no experience on that so have no idea..

E.g. if you have 3.0speed MH and Offhand, and the dmg bonus was +3 (to make math easier :p) then you're adding 1dps on MH and on OH, which is 14 AP.. Which is fine.. However, if it were 3.0 MH and 1.5speed OH. Then 14 AP has the effect of 3 dmg on MH and only 1.5dmg on OH. Thus a +3 dmg boost from item, is now better than 14AP. (since it gives +3 on both).

This then is probably equal to AP according to the formula:

So the correct formula for it is possibly:
If the +7 dmg is halved on OH (this is likely the case):
((7 / MH-speed) + (3.5 / OH-speed) ) / 2 = avg dps added.

Avg dps added * 14 = AP.

If the +7 dmg is not halved on OH:
((7 / MH-speed) + (7 / OH-speed)*2) / 2 = avg dps added.

avg dps added * 14 = AP
#2317SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Malevolencia View Post
This then is probably equal to AP according to the formula:

So the correct formula for it is possibly:
If the +7 dmg is halved on OH (this is likely the case):
((7 / MH-speed) + (3.5 / OH-speed) ) / 2 = avg dps added.

Avg dps added * 14 = AP.

If the +7 dmg is not halved on OH:
((7 / MH-speed) + (7 / OH-speed)*2) / 2 = avg dps added.

avg dps added * 14 = AP
Yes you're right. I'm sorry for the confusion, for a pure aep comparison you do need to weight it with anything.
#2318SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mordinm
Originally Posted by Malevolencia View Post
Uh why? :o I don't think you should, he's trying to compare it to AP which is effectively a flat damage increase on your weapon based upon base weapon speed, AP doesn't change how much dmg it adds per hit when you haste your weapons..

However, you have to take account of the Offhand too. If both weapons are the same speed, the calculation given would be correct however if they aren't it's slightly different. Also, is the bonus halved on the offhand or not? I have no experience on that so have no idea..

E.g. if you have 3.0speed MH and Offhand, and the dmg bonus was +3 (to make math easier :p) then you're adding 1dps on MH and on OH, which is 14 AP.. Which is fine.. However, if it were 3.0 MH and 1.5speed OH. Then 14 AP has the effect of 3 dmg on MH and only 1.5dmg on OH. Thus a +3 dmg boost from item, is now better than 14AP. (since it gives +3 on both).

This then is probably equal to AP according to the formula:

So the correct formula for it is possibly:
If the +7 dmg is halved on OH (this is likely the case):
((7 / MH-speed) + (3.5 / OH-speed) ) / 2 = avg dps added.

Avg dps added * 14 = AP.

If the +7 dmg is not halved on OH:
((7 / MH-speed) + (7 / OH-speed)*2) / 2 = avg dps added.

avg dps added * 14 = AP
It should be weighted to account for unleashed rage which will add 10% AP but will not buff the + weapon damage stat

Avg dps added * 14 /1.1 = AP would be closer to the mark I think.
#2319SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3T.K.
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I am having a hard time understanding why people refuse to read, or at least skim through pages to find that their questions have been asked and responded to over and over again. All of the weapon combos have been tested pre haste nerf, the information is all here; just look for it.
Well, for me it's DAMN STUPID HARDER than, why people only reply without paying attention to questions.

I've been reading this since page 1 started. Even before Malan made the piece of art that's in the front page. I've discussed stuff with Disquette by PM waaaaay before we reached so detailed discussion or even that his simulator was as know or good as it's now. i've read every single post or every single page of this thread and others AND there's no anwser to that question.

ALL the comparisons between weapons were almost all the time made between RT and Syphon. And basically, if i wanted a comparison to AEP values i'd just sum the up and don't waste people's time and my time. What i asked for was people feelings about the weapon. We already now that the AEP of RT is higher than Strike, we already know that after patch haste will have a lower value, pretty close to what +hit equal for us now. What i'm saying and was asking, is that if people feels that the mace is and will still be better with the increased procs because of the haste proc and such. i think i saw like 2 or 3 posts with people saying that with some haste and Flurry up the uptime in Strike was basically the same in PTR.

To me, saying that it has lower AEP than RT and that's it is like saying Flurry hastes the next X atks and that's it. We know it's not stone carved like that.
#2320SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leveret
Originally Posted by T.K. View Post
I've discussed stuff with Disquette by PM waaaaay before we reached so detailed discussion or even that his simulator was as know or good as it's now.
Is this the same Disquette who started the rumor that Sunstrider Axe provides more Windfury DPS than epics, in this thread? WoW Forums -> Horde Enhance Shammy - raiding EZ mode
#2321SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Leveret View Post
Is this the same Disquette who started the rumor that Sunstrider Axe provides more Windfury DPS than epics, in this thread? WoW Forums -> Horde Enhance Shammy - raiding EZ mode
Yes, and he's also the guy who's made a large number of contributions to our understanding of shaman mechanics, to include the first simulator we had access to. He fully states in that thread you linked that he goofed up in adding DPS instead of multiplying. He made an error and admitted it, who cares?
#2322SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Leveret
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes, and he's also the guy who's made a large number of contributions to our understanding of shaman mechanics, to include the first simulator we had access to. He fully states in that thread you linked that he goofed up in adding DPS instead of multiplying. He made an error and admitted it, who cares?
I'm just surprised, because I wouldn't expect those to be the same person.

Actually, the fundamental problem in that post is not that he added DPS instead of weapon damage. That was just a small problem compared to the other issue with that calculation: he didn't take into account the number of times Windfury would proc. The beauty of Windfury is that a slower weapon would have harder hitting procs, and a faster weapon would have more procs in a given time, such that the two factors balance each other out, resulting in a flat damage increase without needing normalization at all. Towards the end of that thread he admitted to the error of adding DPS to damage, but he never realized the error of failing to take into account the proc rate. In the last post he still believes that given a high enough attack power the Sunstrider Axe would overtake the epic in damage. But if he took into account the proc rate, he would see that the weapon speed actually drops out completely in the correct calculation for Windfury DPS, so a lower DPS weapon could never overtake a higher DPS weapon regardless of weapon speed.

Last edited by Leveret : 09/09/07 at 2:00 AM.
#2323SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aezoc
Or maybe he knows more about WF mechanics than you do. Seriously, read the first post. You really have no business commenting on enhancement mechanics if you don't understand something as fundamental as the 3 sec cooldown on WF.
#2324SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Leveret
Originally Posted by Aezoc View Post
Or maybe he knows more about WF mechanics than you do. Seriously, read the first post. You really have no business commenting on enhancement mechanics if you don't understand something as fundamental as the 3 sec cooldown on WF.
The 3 second cooldown is irrelevant in this simple calculation. Ironically enough, it is actually him who found out that despite the 3 sec cooldown Windfury is still proccing at around 20% rate when dual-wielding. I think it may very well be that those posts are made by a friend of his or something without his permission. Because he clearly knows too much about Windfury mechanics to be making such a fundamental mistake.

Last edited by Leveret : 09/09/07 at 2:22 AM.
#2325SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Spamy
I was looking for some advice on which gear to choose so any help would be appreiated

My armory page with enhancment gear (will change back to elemental some time today so I'll list the gear etc)

I have 1320 ap, 153, 27.19 crit unbuffed

I'm using the Desolation Shoulders (w/ 2 6 str gems) with the Desolation Leggings that gives me 67 hit rating along however in an attempt to increase my ap I was thinking of getting the Forestwalker Kilt from MT and Cyclone shoulders from Maulgar this would give me 128 ap .20%ish more crit at the cost of 50 hit rating, I could also instead of putting either str/ & crit/str sockets use hit/str or hit sockets to try and make up for the loss of hit.

What I really want to know is 103 hit too low or should I go for it, I used to be a guy who thought 200 hit was vital because that's what I had been told (I'm not very good at maths) and was rather confused when everyone started going on about not needing 200 anyway ;p
#2326SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• Sebudai
128 attack power (x 1 = 128 AEP)
4.42 crit rating (x 2 = 8.84 AEP)

total: 136.84 AEP

50 hit rating (x 1.4 = 70 AEP)

total: 70 AEP

If you don't know what AEP is, the first post in this thread has all of the information you need. It will make your gear decisions much easier.

I currently have 82 total hit rating, and at one point it was a lot lower. 103 is just fine. Hit rating gems are never the correct choice.

Last edited by Sebudai : 09/09/07 at 9:12 AM.
#2327SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Spamy
I'm not completely enhancement-braindead but I was wondering if 103 was too low causing me to miss more than I should be, thanks though
#2328SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Has there been any theory crafting on ignore armor stats? I picked up a choker of serrated blades tonight from Bt and I like the look of it so far while being on Gorefiend.. if there has been some speculation could someone point me towards a post or a page number, thanks.
#2329SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hephaustus
As far as I understand, armor penetration isnt a "linear progression" as is attack power, crit, or hit. This makes modeling it very difficult because the value gained from armor pen is based on the armor of the mob you are attacking. Against a mob with lower base armor, armor pen increases your damage a lot more then against a mob with higher base armor. This is because of the way that armor scales (i.e. as you get more armor the amount of mitigation per point of armor decreases.)

This presents a problem because armor isnt universal or available client-side, and it is difficult or impossible to accurately calculate a mobs armor without a LOT of data. That being said, i'd love to see some models/math for it, but sadly im not the man to do it.

Also I do not know whether or not mobs are allowed to go into negative armor.
#2330SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bullworth
On the main page there is a link for Pawn, a customizable item calculator that helps in a weighted item decisions. I for one enjoy a GUI interface for my UI and looked for an alternative for Pawn and ran across ItemValue an ACE2 add-on (forum discussion), which for me wasn't working until a recent patch by the author. It has a simple input for flat values calculations, i.e. linear strings similar to Pawn equations. In addition this add-on has the option of non-linear equations for calculating stat values, which some stats seem to have.
#2331SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Hephaustus View Post
As far as I understand, armor penetration isnt a "linear progression" as is attack power, crit, or hit. This makes modeling it very difficult because the value gained from armor pen is based on the armor of the mob you are attacking. Against a mob with lower base armor, armor pen increases your damage a lot more then against a mob with higher base armor. This is because of the way that armor scales (i.e. as you get more armor the amount of mitigation per point of armor decreases.)

This presents a problem because armor isnt universal or available client-side, and it is difficult or impossible to accurately calculate a mobs armor without a LOT of data. That being said, i'd love to see some models/math for it, but sadly im not the man to do it.

Also I do not know whether or not mobs are allowed to go into negative armor.
Here you go Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo
And, no - mobs are not allowed to go into negative armor. So if your raid somehow manages to bring boss to 0 armor -armor will produce 0 benefit.
#2332SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Looking through Rogue DPS Thread I found a link to post [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion where new Miss % and Weapon skill explained. It could be added to the 1st post.
We get 28%(!!!) misses on bosses.
#2333SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hellraiser
With the upcomming haste nerf, is Dragonstrike still n1 mainhand for a enhancement shammy?
or would it be beter with Rising Tide in MH and Syphon of the Nathrezim in OH?
#2334SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
Looking through Rogue DPS Thread I found a link to post [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion where new Miss % and Weapon skill explained. It could be added to the 1st post.
We get 28%(!!!) misses on bosses.
I'm glad this matches up with observered results - It was a bit disconcerting that rogues and shaman seemed to have different hit caps. It's pleasing to know that this (weird) formula explains the odd effects of weapon skill producing effects that explain the discrepencies.

And yes, I'll be keeping my belt of 1000 deaths :-)
#2335SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Krish
Having some trouble with Yo's simulator.

Yo,

The simulator you've put together should prove quite a bit more useful for quick calculations and adjustments than was previously available, so a big thanks. I am having one small issue which is preventing me from using it to its fullest. I currently use a Mac, and the default text for the Java applet is perhaps larger than the Windows default. This is pushing much of the text (and especially the resulting AEP values) outside the visible bounds of the Java frame. It also means the text boxes into which stats are entered do not show the whole number. I don't seem to be able to figure a way around this on the client side, but if you have a suggestion or could fix the server side, that would be a fantastic help to us Mac users.

Thanks so much,

Kresh
#2336SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Originally Posted by hellraiser View Post
With the upcomming haste nerf, is Dragonstrike still n1 mainhand for a enhancement shammy?
or would it be beter with Rising Tide in MH and Syphon of the Nathrezim in OH?
Why would you consider that? Honestly it amazes me why people don't want to go for double Syphons, it has 365 top end damage, the proc rate is about 15 ppm in a raid and it would allow for the best possible stormstrike and windfury crits in the game for us as a class...
#2337SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Krish View Post
Yo,

The simulator you've put together should prove quite a bit more useful for quick calculations and adjustments than was previously available, so a big thanks. I am having one small issue which is preventing me from using it to its fullest. I currently use a Mac, and the default text for the Java applet is perhaps larger than the Windows default. This is pushing much of the text (and especially the resulting AEP values) outside the visible bounds of the Java frame. It also means the text boxes into which stats are entered do not show the whole number. I don't seem to be able to figure a way around this on the client side, but if you have a suggestion or could fix the server side, that would be a fantastic help to us Mac users.

Thanks so much,

Kresh
Thanks for this info. Can you post a screenshot so I will see how it appears on Macs?

Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
And yes, I'll be keeping my belt of 1000 deaths :-)
I modelled it using this shaman (applied raid buffs to him too) and it looks so that Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - Items - World of Warcraft would benefit him more (1061 dps) than his Valestalker Girdle - Items - World of Warcraft (1059 dps) even though his off-hand is an axe. If he would wear mace in off-hand his expected dps would be 1069.

By the way - all critical switches and detailed report are available now in Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo in hope that you will come and play with it for some time Disquette as your other bug-report helped greatly

Last edited by Yo! : 09/09/07 at 8:13 PM.
#2338SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kreltok
Originally Posted by Muj View Post
Why would you consider that? Honestly it amazes me why people don't want to go for double Syphons, it has 365 top end damage, the proc rate is about 15 ppm in a raid and it would allow for the best possible stormstrike and windfury crits in the game for us as a class...
Even with the +23 top end damage over dragonstrike and the proc, is that enough to make up for the loss of the haste proc from dragonstrike?
#2339SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I still can't get your sim to run on my Mac G5 Yo, even after updating to the absolute latest java stuff from Sun/Apple, in either Firefox or Safari.
#2340SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Krish
Malan,

I had this same problem. The fix is to go to Apple Developer Connection and download the beta of Java 6. You'll want to read the file that describes how to go into java prefs and drag Java 6 to the top of the list for loading. Took me a good 20 minutes to figure out that solution, so I hope it helps. As for a screenshot the site seems to be down at the moment, but I'll try to provide one soon.

- Kresh
#2341SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shamif
Is there a point where your mainhand can outgear your offhand to a point where you should switch to a fast offhand with FT?

I am asking because I am currently using dragonmaw (soon dragonstrike) and the 2.6 blue pvp mace.

Is there a point where your 70somethin dps offhand stealing WF procs from your 100ish MH Can cause lower dps than a slow/WF fast(20+ dps higher)/FT?

Armory link
The Armory

I have a malca rotting in my bank for skillups
dont gimme the get a epic offhand thing we are working on al'ar

Last edited by Shamif : 09/09/07 at 9:04 PM.
#2342SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Igniter
Originally Posted by Shamif View Post
Is there a point where your mainhand can outgear your offhand to a point where you should switch to a fast offhand with FT?

I am asking because I am currently using dragonmaw (soon dragonstrike) and the 2.6 blue pvp mace.

Is there a point where your 70somethin dps offhand stealing WF procs from your 100ish MH Can cause lower dps than a slow/WF fast(20+ dps higher)/FT?

Armory link
The Armory

I have a malca rotting in my bank for skillups
dont gimme the get a epic offhand thing we are working on al'ar
DO NOT SPEAK OF FLAMETOUNGE HERE.
#2343SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I don't even understand what that question means. It looks like a thinly veiled request to rationalize the use of FT.
#2344SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
I compared your most recent version of your sim against my model. They pretty much match the DPS now, difference is in the ~3% range with the default values, which is well in the expected range of assumed ideal distributions on my end.
You're UR & flurry uptime is very close to mine (again ~2%) compared to my most recent flurry model (which basically ignores the stormstrike "help" for now, since I'll probably change the stormstrike modelling a bit).


So as far as I've seen it, you're sim is looking real nice from the modelling point of view.
#2345SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Ok Yo, got your sim finally working on my mac, here's how it looks on a mac in firefox.
You can see that all the stuff on the right is getting cut off.
Attached Thumbnails
picture_1.png  
#2346SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Shamif View Post
Is there a point where your mainhand can outgear your offhand to a point where you should switch to a fast offhand with FT?

I am asking because I am currently using dragonmaw (soon dragonstrike) and the 2.6 blue pvp mace.

Is there a point where your 70somethin dps offhand stealing WF procs from your 100ish MH Can cause lower dps than a slow/WF fast(20+ dps higher)/FT?
The basic problem with your question is that you are assuming that the MH proc rate is significantly lower with double WF than with MH only WF, but with a 2.6 speed OH this is not true due to that the proc rate per swing goes from 20% to 36% with double WF. If you are using a slow OH, it doesn't "steal" MH procs in the first place.
#2347SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stekespade
Yes, it's one more of those who haven't bothered looking through 90~ pages and 2,3k~ posts having a question!

I have failed to find a searching mechanic on the forum and I couldn't find anything about it on the main page. What about 2xSyphon for a shaman?
#2348SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
By the way - all critical switches and detailed report are available now in Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo in hope that you will come and play with it for some time Disquette as your other bug-report helped greatly
I think that your sim is working a lot better now. I am seeing values more in-line with what I expected. At 2650 AP, 33% Crit, 17.37% Hit, 0 Haste/-AC I got:
AP = 1
CR = 2.08
HitR = 1.65
HasteR = 1.1
-AC = 0.27
STR = 2.2
AGI = 2.02
These all seem like fairly reasonable values, I am surprised that Haste is so low but I also think that was the least-well-supported AEP we created initially. My initial reaction was to think that was a high value for -AC but that means the -175 AC on [Choker of Serrated Blades] is worth 47 AP, so Blizzard may have the item budget for this stat in about the right spot, comparing to [Choker of Endless Nightmares]. We'd expect the former to be worth 35+37*2/3+47/2 = 83 item budget points and the latter to be worth 21+27+36 = 84 points (ignoring the effect that stat stacking has on item budget). My DPS does come out a little low (997), so perhaps the default value of 4400 mob armor is a little high.

Last edited by Rob : 09/10/07 at 1:41 AM.
#2349SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Thanks for all the updates guys. I'm sorry if this counts as a "useless post", but I believe in public thanks ;-)
#2350SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• Krish
Fixed my own issue.

Last edited by Krish : 09/10/07 at 5:55 AM. Reason: Resolved my own issue... nothing to see here.
#2351SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Anyone know anything about PPM nerf? http://elitistjerks.com/471929-post525.html
Is proc chance going to be calculated on current speed not the base one? Thay are killing haste in every way :-(
#2352SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
Anyone know anything about PPM nerf? http://elitistjerks.com/471929-post525.html
Is proc chance going to be calculated on current speed not the base one? Thay are killing haste in every way :-(
According to tests, its same as on live, no?
#2353SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Hedin View Post
Anyone know anything about PPM nerf? http://elitistjerks.com/471929-post525.html
Is proc chance going to be calculated on current speed not the base one? Thay are killing haste in every way :-(
I thought I had read that the ppm is same on live as on test, can't seem to find the post, but i'm sure it was in this thread.
#2354SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3dukes
Proc Per Minute Mechanics & Haste
#2355SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Winfurae
alright, I see.

Last edited by Winfurae : 09/10/07 at 8:59 AM.
#2356SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nisall
If you have being keeping track of this thread for weeks how can you possibly ask about hitrating? It only gets asked twice per page of this thread.

Never ever socket hit gems

You get enough hit through your talents + the hit rating alot of items have.
#2357SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
People don't really like posts like this (when you ask for advice, especially when it was asked many many times before) and "lol" is what you should not use here.

Generally hit rating is a useful stat but I don't really have a goal to get x amount of it. I take items that are upgrades and consider hit rating as a bonus.
#2358SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Misanthrope
Good day everyone.

I'm a rogue captain in my guild and we don't have a lot of shaman, so currently we're aligning them with their roles rather than a specific class captain. As such, the enhancement shammies are under my watch.

I currently have one shaman who is, putting it plainly, a complete pain in the arse. We essentially have to badger him for several minutes to get him to use WF over GOA.

Our Melee DPS group usually includes:
3 Rogues (all combat daggers - thanks Karazhan for that total lack of OH swords!)
1 DPS Warrior or BM Hunter
1 Feral Druid in cat form

What I don't understand is:

How much is he gimping his personal DPS here to use WF over GOA? I know how much of a gain it is for a rogue, but I know next to nothing about shammie DPS (hence my consulting you wise folks).

Thanks.
#2359SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malan
@Misanthrope - His personal DPS gain from GoA is nowhere near what the Warrior is losing by not having WF.

Now, on the days where you have no warrior, and your group is Hunter/Feral/Rogues/Shaman, I would recommend GoA. But if the warrior is there? WF, hands down, no excuse.



@Yo! - Whatever you changed to your sim recently, I am unable to view the AEP values on both Linux and OS X in Firefox, the applet cuts off the portion of the display where the AEP values should be. DPS values for my gear seem pretty damn reasonable for a high level armor mob.
Attached Thumbnails
screenshot_yo_sim.png  

Last edited by Malan : 09/10/07 at 10:27 AM.
#2360SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Misanthrope View Post
Our Melee DPS group usually includes:
3 Rogues (all combat daggers - thanks Karazhan for that total lack of OH swords!)
1 DPS Warrior or BM Hunter
1 Feral Druid in cat form.
How are you fitting 6 people in the melee DPS group? :P

GoA is only worth a few % of crit for the shaman. He'll lose maybe 4% of his damage (and that's extremely generous) for a 20% increase in main hand damage for all the rogues and warriors. If you have 3 rogues or a warrior and two rogues in the group, Windfury is still the best option by quite a lot.
#2361SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hellraiser
As of next patch haste rating is being nerfed, so my simple qeustionis, would Dragonstrike still the best mainhand for a enhancement shammy?
or would it be beter with Rising Tide in MH and Syphon of the Nathrezim in OH? or 2xSyphon of the Nathrezim?
#2362SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I think we've now asked that question twice per day, once per page for the last 10 days.
#2363SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Misanthrope
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
How are you fitting 6 people in the melee DPS group? :P
Errr. Alliance-only secret. OK, maybe it's 2 rogues, 1 shammie, warrior, and kitty.

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
GoA is only worth a few % of crit for the shaman. He'll lose maybe 4% of his damage (and that's extremely generous) for a 20% increase in main hand damage for all the rogues and warriors. If you have 3 rogues or a warrior and two rogues in the group, Windfury is still the best option by quite a lot.
His argument was more due to the fact that his personal Windfury Weapon + GOA is far superior to the WF totem. That's the part I'm having trouble rebutting due to lack of knowledge.
#2364SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
vorda
If you have 3 rogues
Cant back this up with math atm, but I'm fairly confident that this isnt true anymore post nerf. Iirc, the combat dagger spreadsheet already had a very small difference between GoA and WF (because combat dagger has less yellow hits than combat sword), now with rogue yellow hits not proccing WF at all, GoA should be very very close.

edit:
His argument was more due to the fact that his personal Windfury Weapon + GOA is far superior to the WF totem. That's the part I'm having trouble rebutting due to lack of knowledge.
For him personally it obviously is, since WF totem does nothing for HIM. But you bring an enhance shaman to buff his group mainly, everything extra (personal dps) is less important.

As said, GoA is at best 4% of his dps, while its ALOT more for warriors alone. Once you have just 1 warrior in a group, WF totem will add more dps for just that warrior than GoA would for the entire group probably.

Last edited by vorda : 09/10/07 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Living in the past.
#2365SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
He's wrong. His personal DPS is sure as hell not going to improve as much as *only* the warrior would gain from WF Totem, and definitely not as much as 2 rogues + Warrior with WF.
#2366SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmatar
So what you are saying, Malan, is that Windfury is the right totem under the right circumstances, but not others?
#2367SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
vorda
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
So what you are saying, Malan, is that Windfury is the right totem under the right circumstances, but not others?
Did you read the first post?

Windfury vs GoA in a raid group?
Always use Windfury if the following conditions are True:
A DPS warrior is in your group
A warrior who is tanking is in your group
A warrior is in your group
If no warrior, more than 1 sword rogue is in the group

Grace of Air should be considered for use only if the above are false, and under these conditions:
A feral druid tank is in the group (ie, bear... not kitty)
A prot warrior is in your group on a non threat limited fight with high damage components
Any combination of more than 2 hunter/druids is in the group

Last edited by vorda : 09/10/07 at 12:31 PM. Reason: typo
#2368SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
Cant back this up with math atm, but I'm fairly confident that this isnt true anymore post nerf. Iirc, the combat dagger spreadsheet already had a very small difference between GoA and WF (because combat dagger has less yellow hits than combat sword), now with rogue yellow hits not proccing WF at all, GoA should be very very close.

edit:


For him personally it obviously is, since WF totem does nothing for HIM. But you bring an enhance shaman to buff his group mainly, everything extra (personal dps) is less important.

As said, GoA is at best 4% of his dps, while its ALOT more for warriors alone. Once you have just 1 warrior in a group, WF totem will add more dps for just that warrior than GoA would for the entire group probably. (and this is ignoring the fact that for rogues, even with the upcomming nerf, WF will still be very good.)
What upcoming nerf? they're nerfing it again?
#2369SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
What upcoming nerf? they're nerfing it again?
Nvm, I was living in the past
#2370SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
OK, maybe it's 2 rogues, 1 shammie, warrior, and kitty.
The damage from WFT procs will easily beat out the DPS gained from another chunk of agility. If he doesn't drop WFT for that group, he isn't worth bringing over another DPS class.

Cant back this up with math atm, but I'm fairly confident that this isnt true anymore post nerf. Iirc, the combat dagger spreadsheet already had a very small difference between GoA and WF (because combat dagger has less yellow hits than combat sword), now with rogue yellow hits not proccing WF at all, GoA should be very very close.
Windfury is still better by the end of Kara, and the gap widens as gear improves. Poison damage is static; Windfury will do more damage as weapons improve and AP increases, and simply by virtue of having the enhancement shaman in the group, the Rogues will have 10% more AP.
#2371SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hellraiser
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I think we've now asked that question twice per day, once per page for the last 10 days.
Well if i knew the anwser i wouldend of asked, i'm sorry the last 10 pages back i visit i see is full of calculations i cant seem to understand it hence i'm asking it the easy way
#2372SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Using Yo!'s sim and my stats: 2xSyphon > Syphon/RT > RT/Syphon but the difference is about 0.5-1% in DPS. I know it's not the answer for the viability of Dragonstrike.
#2373SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mox
Since the WF totem nerf rogues in my grp have been getting between 4.5-6.5% of thier total damage from WF (they are mace/sword rogues), never paid any attention to the warrior in grp but I'd guestimate 10%ish (MS spec). So 3x rogue + warrior = maybe 25% more dmg for them vs 3-4% personal gain from GoA.

Doesn't take a genius to see which is better.
#2374SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tambard
Hi, I'm currently using the Dragonstrike... I have all the mats for the Dragonmaw and 4 Vortexes (but only 1 mongoose)... Should I just wait to see if I get a Vortex tonight in SSC or upgrade now and slap a +20 STR on it?
#2375SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Your shaman also has the option of 'twisting' both Windfury and GoA and gaining the benefits of both of them!
#2601SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Crit rate is taken as a percentage over ALL swings, not just the ones that hit. WWS will show crit rates as #Crit/#Hits.

I'd recommend the Bloodlust Brooch over the Abacus. Remove all your hit gems.

I say again....

REMOVE ALL YOUR HIT GEMS.
#2602SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• fangar
Wow first post and I get yelled at by Malan. Thanks.

One hit gem no less. I have been hoping to replace those gloves so I didn't bother regemming them (I had them an exceptionally long time from when I was hardcore resto and gemmed up all the hunter gear I got with +8 hit before I knew any better).

Working on my badges for the brooch, I am just exceptionally lazy.

Regarding the crit rate. Thanks for the clarification. I assumed that the WWS tallied in the same manner as what actually happens in the combat table. Shame on me for assuming.

Last edited by fangar : 09/17/07 at 12:07 PM.
#2603SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shawndreya
We're just trying to help you. Totem twisting, although beneficial, is a huge mana burner. So I would not recommend doing it in long fights like Tidewalker. Especially if you end up having to heal yourself.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/17/07 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Spelling error
#2604SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
Yeah I know you are trying to help, which is why I edited in the smiley because I laughed when I saw Malan's reaction. I even knew it was coming when I paniced and rechecked my armory to see that lone +8 hit gem sitting there. I knew what was coming so it made me laugh.

I am still undecided on totem twisting TBH. I struggle from time to time on mana and I know some people use it extensively and others don't touch it. I'll have to pull down a mod and see what i can do with it on the next relatively static VR.

Although my issue with VR is threat, which is why I was using TaT. Would it just be better to die from the pounding, anhk up and go full bore? Thus negating the need for TaT and the prism?

Thanks again for the responses and the help.
#2605SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
To be honest, the only time I totem twist is when we are clearing trash just to make it go faster. I don't use the prism, although I have one. Just keep an eye on your threat meter and you will be fine. When you get about 80% of tank's threat stop shocking and just auto attack to let your aggro gradually drop. On fights like VR, I generally drop tranquil air until he is at 70% anyways.
#2606SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Oh. Well honestly all I did was mouse over a few items and the first one I saw had a +Hit gem on it, so I just stopped there and figured you probably had more.
#2607SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Silverspring
First of all thanks for an awesome thread. You guys have done a great job


Fangar just a tip, you could try to use a FS and ES rotation donno if you have thought about it
#2608SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3bigity
When does DPS > speed on a weapon

I'm leveling up my horde enhancement shammy, and I'm aware of the fact that slow/slow with dual WF is the best DPS.

However, how much speed is worth how much DPS? Do I upgrade to a weapon with 5-7 more DPS but that is .7 speed faster (specifically talking about the Grunt's Waraxe vs Pneumatic hammers). I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, disregarding stats, when is a faster weapon a better choice than a slower, lower DPS weapon?

My armory link in case it's useful to the question:
The Armory
#2609SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
We're just trying to help you. Totem twisting, although beneficial, is a huge mana burner. So I would not recommend doing it in long fights like Tidewalker. Especially if you end up having to heal yourself.
If you ever have to heal yourself there's something wrong. Healthstone & healing potion is all you should ever need with any competent healers.

Originally Posted by fangar
I am still undecided on totem twisting TBH. I struggle from time to time on mana and I know some people use it extensively and others don't touch it. I'll have to pull down a mod and see what i can do with it on the next relatively static VR.
I've done it from blues/Karazhan gear up to my current gear; I'll endorse it fully. Initial TA's are amazing, it not only lowers your threat ceiling but your party's as well. I generally switch out TA for GoA once aggro is well established (ie 10-15ish% below tank threat), and it's simple math from this point on sustainability and overall dps increase. With mental quickness and totemic mastery TA/WF is 173.5/5 mana to keep up, GoA/WF is 218.5/5 or 20820/26220 mana on a 10 min fight. This isn't even that much mana, it's when coupling it with shocks every CD that it gets intensive and unsustainable- think about it, 7xxx mana raidbuffed, full mana bars every rage excluding your first, it's a maximum of needing 4 rages to keep up cycling when you are allowed 5 rages in a 10 min fight, you're looking at 7xxx+leftover mana from your 4th rage for shocks, something like 17 flame shocks + whatever you can do to burn down your mana before your first early/subsequent rages.

Cycling totems requires a small portion of awareness because your SR's are what let the build do what it does, so you need to make sure various abilities have gone off before you hit your rage(ie graves, iceblock, roots, whirlwind, whirl, tomb, meteor timer, port timer, flamestrike, spine, bloodboil, fa, sleep, rain of fire, burst, fear, ect), although I suppose this is true even if you are just a shock person!
#2610SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Re: yellow damage crits: I am seeing a lot of variation of the crit percentage between white damage, windfury and SS. WF and SS are ALWAYS lower than white damage, and in long parses (~1M damage overall) WF and SS seem to approach the same percentage. But it's not as simple as being 6% less, as might be expected...it's more like 3-4% less?

Strangely, the crit percentages between WF and SS were as out of whack as I've ever seen them on my Gruul's raid last week, where I spent about half the time in a group with the feral druids. SS was about 2% higher than WF.

(There were also some turning issues...I don't SS when a mob's front is to me because that usually means one of the rogues has drawn aggro and if I don't scale back I'm next. Sure enough, my WF hit rate is about 5% lower than my SS hit rate, so it could be as simple as that)

Disco, can you dream up a test of the two roll-theory?
#2611SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
edit: @ fangar. Wow you guys post fast.

I'm a big proponent of totem twisting, but in moderation. Doing it for a whole fight is kinda rough, esp if you don't have BoW.

For VR, are you being put in the tank group? The added WF/GoA/UR buffs usually mean I don't have to worry about threat at all. Also, I try to save lust for when I'm sneaking up on threat. You're getting Salvation, right?
#2612SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• Toots Hepcat
bigity: I've found empirically that green 2.6s (~60 dps) were much, much better than epic 1.8s (~80 dps), even in the offhand. You can predict which weapon is better by running one of the great simulators posted in the topic post, they're usually quite close.

I don't know that anybody's researched the exact relationship between weapon speed and damage, but it's going to be pretty high in favor of slow and low. Remember, you want high swing damage for WF and SS procs -- you'd need a 2.0s weapon with at least 78 dps to match your current hammers in terms of swing damage, and by then you're talking L70 epics.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/17/07 at 2:15 PM.
#2613SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3bigity
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
bigity: You can prove to yourself which weapon is better by running one of the great simulators posted in the topic post. I've found that green 2.6s (~60 dps) were much, much better than epic 1.8s (~80 dps), even in the offhand.

I don't know that anybody's researched the relative values of weapon speed and dps, but it's going to be pretty high in favor of slow and low. I did a sim of the Runic Hammer (2.4s, 83.5 dps) vs. my Boggspine Knuckles (2.6s, 71.7dps) and I kept the knuckles. Whether that's because they were always better, or because the difference didn't outweigh the cost, i don't remember.
Ah ya know I didn't even think about the calculators. How retarded of me Thanks.
#2614SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Originally Posted by rava View Post
If you ever have to heal yourself there's something wrong. Healthstone & healing potion is all you should ever need with any competent healers.
I prefer to heal myself when invigorate is up rather than pot. I tend to save pots/healthstones for emergencies only. That way when such an emergency occurs, my cooldowns are up.
#2615SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Shawndreya View Post
I prefer to heal myself when invigorate is up rather than pot. I tend to save pots/healthstones for emergencies only. That way when such an emergency occurs, my cooldowns are up.
You reset your swing timer and use a global for 1500 healing?
#2616SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Ya, I'd rather have the my potions up for those moments whne its like "Oh damn, I only have 10 hp!" so I can top myself off asap. Situations like that are more important than losing a few swings IMO. Besides, I don't like having to rely on healers all the time.

But everyone plays differently. If you feel safe relying on your healers, more power to you.
#2617SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by fangar View Post
Yeah I know you are trying to help, which is why I edited in the smiley because I laughed when I saw Malan's reaction. I even knew it was coming when I paniced and rechecked my armory to see that lone +8 hit gem sitting there. I knew what was coming so it made me laugh.

I am still undecided on totem twisting TBH. I struggle from time to time on mana and I know some people use it extensively and others don't touch it. I'll have to pull down a mod and see what i can do with it on the next relatively static VR.

Although my issue with VR is threat, which is why I was using TaT. Would it just be better to die from the pounding, anhk up and go full bore? Thus negating the need for TaT and the prism?

Thanks again for the responses and the help.
This is something I found out, and apparently only shaman can do it (warriors and rogues tried and did not have the range): on VR, if you stand at the maximun range of your stormstrike, you will not get hit with the pounding. More importantly, it will consider you to be out of melee range, so you will have to accumulate 130% to pull it. The down side is that it will occasionally lob orbs at you, so stay far away from tanks
#2618SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
Originally Posted by Silverspring View Post
First of all thanks for an awesome thread. You guys have done a great job


Fangar just a tip, you could try to use a FS and ES rotation donno if you have thought about it
Yeah I did (I have read this entire thread at least once and most posts twice). My raids run against the debuff cap so my simple flame shock was the first to go and I just ES exclusively. I'm actually surprised that that issue is not mentioned here.

Regarding Invigorate. I tend to heal myself when I notice the buff is up and I need it. I eat HS constantly and generally save my potion timer for haste pots.
#2619SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by rava View Post
You reset your swing timer and use a global for 1500 healing?
I do the same thing. When specific healers aren't there, melee tend to not get healed, so those "emergencies cooldowns" are the difference of doing dps or laying on the ground and grabbing a drink while the raid finishes.

2 second heal, global cooldown is done when the heal goes off, you can continue. Does it stop dps? Yes, but, it's winning situation, imo.
#2620SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Diogo View Post
This is something I found out, and apparently only shaman can do it (warriors and rogues tried and did not have the range): on VR, if you stand at the maximun range of your stormstrike, you will not get hit with the pounding. More importantly, it will consider you to be out of melee range, so you will have to accumulate 130% to pull it. The down side is that it will occasionally lob orbs at you, so stay far away from tanks
It only works for cows, you can out range kaz'rogal's stun and a few other things with the cow hit box.

I really can't imagine not having faith in healers to do 1500 healing half a dozen times per fight, to each their own I suppose!
#2621SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Well on fights where everyone is taking damage, I can't assume that I will be healed in priority to say the tanks, or other healers. On nights when our resto shamans don't show up, taking the time to heal myself can be life saving. Aside from that, healing yourself when able takes stress off healers, allowing them to focus on the critical players. We have the ability to heal ourselves, there's no reason we can't utilize it.
#2622SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I really can't imagine not having faith in healers to do 1500 healing half a dozen times per fight, to each their own I suppose!
So when you find yourself below the health threshold of a mob ability you just continue to DPS and wait for someone to heal you? Even rogues and warriors know to stop and bandage themselves.
#2623SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by bigity View Post
I'm leveling up my horde enhancement shammy, and I'm aware of the fact that slow/slow with dual WF is the best DPS.

However, how much speed is worth how much DPS? Do I upgrade to a weapon with 5-7 more DPS but that is .7 speed faster (specifically talking about the Grunt's Waraxe vs Pneumatic hammers).
A 65 DPS green 2.6 is more damage than a 85 DPS 1.8 (Emerald Ripper) when matched with the same main hand weapon, so chances are pretty good that you'll be better off sticking with the hammers.
#2624SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shawndreya
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
So when you find yourself below the health threshold of a mob ability you just continue to DPS and wait for someone to heal you? Even rogues and warriors know to stop and bandage themselves.
Spoken like a champion Malan.

Oh, and thanks for the Kael'thas tips a few days back. We killed him last night, congrats to me on T5 chestpiece.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/17/07 at 3:40 PM.
#2625SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3BoinKlasik
Mana issues.

Originally Posted by drats View Post
I'm a big proponent of totem twisting, but in moderation. Doing it for a whole fight is kinda rough, esp if you don't have BoW.
one of the biggest differences i see between my use of mana while totem twisting and other guilds is that we use a prot paladin in most of our fights. Since tidewalker is the most typical fight for guilds to use a prot paladin i will use that as an example. TW WWS you will note from this parse that JoW accounts for 13 thousand mana in that fight. (although, this is a terrible parse, I was tombed 5 times in a row.)

What I would recommend doing for those of you that seem to have mana issues, is ask your healadins to throw up JoW sometimes. It is up for 20 seconds it is up if they don't refresh it. Even that short time can return a decent amount of mana even in the very long fights.
#2626SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azaranth
Malan,

I believe the weight for Haste Rating still needs to be updated in the Pawn string, near the bottom of the first post.
#2627SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tqq
I'm a little surprised by how low crit% some people on here have considering they are better geared than myself. I am currently at 27.87% with a couple blues left to replace and wearing my more balanced gear with hit, etc. I should break 28% today when I find a damn leather worker to make my Thick Netherscale Breastplate.
#2628SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
So when you find yourself below the health threshold of a mob ability you just continue to DPS and wait for someone to heal you? Even rogues and warriors know to stop and bandage themselves.
That statement was in direct regard to invigorate. Look at what was posted,
Regarding Invigorate. I tend to heal myself when I notice the buff is up and I need it. I eat HS constantly and generally save my potion timer for haste pots.
Take any quote out of context and you can make it sound like whatever you want.

There are two fights I can think of when I actually reach a point where I have to bandage and that's Mother and Council, simply due to the spiky nature and randomness of abilities. Any other boss where it matters has set times when they use abilities, or they use them frequent enough that you are lucky to get 1 tick of a bandage, let alone an uninterrupted heal. Everything is a judgment call, different situations call for different timers, and I'm honestly surprised you'd say something so condescending.
#2629SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yasuhiko
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
2) We don't know that Thundering Strikes doesn't grant the crit bonus to yellow attacks. I'm currently of the thought that the observed discrepancy is an effect of the 2-roll system for yellow damage. Some day I or someone else could test this.
My thoughts were that the 6% to hit with DW specialization does not effect Stormstrike and WF, but since we have enough hit (be it from gear or guidance) that we never see it miss anyway.

Last edited by Yasuhiko : 09/17/07 at 7:54 PM.
#2630SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Incorrect. The 6% and 3% in resto will hit cap you on specials vs a boss mob.
#2631SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Illundai
I recently changed to Enhancement (and guild, but that doesn't really matter :P) and due to randomness of loot and being unlucky, neither [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or [Rising Tide] have dropped so I decided to pick up Blacksmithing for [Dragonstrike]. I don't have it yet and I will most likely end up with not enough vortexes this reset meaning I have to duck it out with what I have at the moment. However, we won't go back to t5 for another week, so I was thinking whether [Dragonmaw] was a significant enough upgrade over [Talon of the Phoenix] that would justify enchanting the Dragonmaw with 20 str. Any rough numbers in how much dps the proc from Dragonmaw is worth?
In short, enchant Dragonmaw or continue with what I have? I'm definitely not going to put Mongoose on it, since that's just wasting gold, but 20 strength isn't THAT expensive and if my DPS is going to see a significant enough improvement from the difference in between Dragonmaw and Talon, albeit for only a week I would gladly pay mats for an enchant.

Oh and by the way, lately I have been struggling... I was of the opinion like most Shamans that Crit Rating was just awesome, so I kind of gimped my AP/Str a little... I ended up with 29% crit and 1543 AP (Unbuffed, of course). Way to go, or should I focus a little more on AP again?
#2632SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Igniter
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I recently changed to Enhancement (and guild, but that doesn't really matter :P) and due to randomness of loot and being unlucky, neither [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or [Rising Tide] have dropped so I decided to pick up Blacksmithing for [Dragonstrike]. I don't have it yet and I will most likely end up with not enough vortexes this reset meaning I have to duck it out with what I have at the moment. However, we won't go back to t5 for another week, so I was thinking whether [Dragonmaw] was a significant enough upgrade over [Talon of the Phoenix] that would justify enchanting the Dragonmaw with 20 str. Any rough numbers in how much dps the proc from Dragonmaw is worth?
In short, enchant Dragonmaw or continue with what I have? I'm definitely not going to put Mongoose on it, since that's just wasting gold, but 20 strength isn't THAT expensive and if my DPS is going to see a significant enough improvement from the difference in between Dragonmaw and Talon, albeit for only a week I would gladly pay mats for an enchant.

Oh and by the way, lately I have been struggling... I was of the opinion like most Shamans that Crit Rating was just awesome, so I kind of gimped my AP/Str a little... I ended up with 29% crit and 1543 AP (Unbuffed, of course). Way to go, or should I focus a little more on AP again?
I don't see how you can gimp your AP going for crit, unless you're using the improper gems. And no I can't see, since the armory is down.
#2633SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Oh and by the way, lately I have been struggling... I was of the opinion like most Shamans that Crit Rating was just awesome, so I kind of gimped my AP/Str a little... I ended up with 29% crit and 1543 AP (Unbuffed, of course). Way to go, or should I focus a little more on AP again?
That's about the same I'm sitting at so if you're a mix of T4/T5 level items, you're fine.
#2634SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Malan I've got a couple of questions for you. First is about haste. First you say its worth 2.22, but then when you talk about the Haste Potion you say it's only worth 1.42 per point. Could you please clear up which it's supposed to be (maybe its calculated at post nerf value, while other is at pre nerf? I really don't know). Also you might want to add the Insane Strength Potion to that list for those wanting to know. Its (120*2*15)/120=30, with 33 with kings/UR or 36 with both.

My other question is about WF totem and rogues. I know that it's better for sword/mace/fist rogues, but what about dagger rogues? Pre nerf the post I saw where they used the Malch dagger it was only slightly better, but I haven't really seen anything convincing showing if thats still true post nerf, and I couldn't find anything about it when I searched the forums here. Also could you link the thread showing that WF is still good for rogues that you make mention to in the first post. A link to math is always more helpful in an arguement than just saying its better w/o anything to back it up.
#2635SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Rajni
In regards to the windfury totem on rogues, since the change, it actually provides a slightly larger bonus to daggers than to swords/fists, as it's a static ap bonus, and daggers will proc the chance more often, leading to more damage.

The reason fists/swords were better before the change, was that the SS spam could proc windfury, which is used a lot more than backstab.

Last edited by Rajni : 09/17/07 at 10:52 PM. Reason: grammar, go!
#2636SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Originally Posted by Rajni View Post
In regards to the windfury totem on rogues, since the change, it actually provides a slightly larger bonus to daggers than to swords/fists, as it's a static ap bonus, and daggers will proc the chance more often, leading to more damage.

The reason fists/swords were better before the change, was that the SS spam could proc windfury, which is used a lot more than backstab.

I understand that its less of a nerf to dagger than other rogue specs, but its still a nerf to them since backstab, mutilate, and w/e else they might use (I don't know too much about rogues if you couldn't tell) can't proc it anymore. Given how close WF vs GoA was for dagger rogues thats why I'm wondering if it was enough to make GoA better. Generally our group makeup is me, 2-3 dagger rogues, feral druid, and a warrior and I'm trying to figure out if GoA would be better when the warrior isn't in the group. Hell I would like to see the new numbers for warriors post nerf as well so that I could determine if WF for one person is better than GoA for five.
#2637SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
The haste values are just an oversight that I need to correct. It should be 1.48 I believe once 2.2 hits Live.

As far as WF Totem, Disquette is organizing some testing for the next PTR that will provide some final numbers on it.
#2638SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Alright thanks. I'll be sure to check back later then to see the final results.
#2639SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Illundai
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
I don't see how you can gimp your AP going for crit, unless you're using the improper gems. And no I can't see, since the armory is down.
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
That's about the same I'm sitting at so if you're a mix of T4/T5 level items, you're fine.

I specced resto for some PvP, so you wouldn't be able to see anyway. My gear is t4/t5 indeed, with a few items from t6. Bracers from Supremus, class trinket, boots, just little bits and pieces. We farm t6 content, so I'm getting gear fast.
As for gems, I think I went a little too nuts on the +8 crit and +10 crit gems. Oh and I have one hit gem, need to replace that one when I get around it :P and yes the gemming in my chest is horrible, but I was kind of waiting for an upgrade, in retrospective I should just regem that a little.
I logged out in my Enhancement gear and spec, so you can see as the armory just updated my page. Hopefully. Mind you the stats will be a little off, as I can't dual wield and I think I was a little drunk when I last checked my stats as Enhancement :P.

Anyway, does anyone have a number to put on how much DPS the proc on [Dragonmaw] is worth?

Last edited by Illundai : 09/18/07 at 12:22 AM.
#2640SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Anyway, does anyone have a number to put on how much DPS the proc on [Dragonmaw] is worth?
That would entirely depend on your own stats/buffs. Why not run Yo!'s sim to compare the weapons?
#2641SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Ok I think I've corrected all occurrences of Haste Rating to be 1.48, and I added the Insane Strength Potion value.
#2642SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
roknir
WF vs GoA

This might have already been posted in this thread, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

I'd like to poke the bear in the cage about WF vs GoA. We know about how warriors, druids, and rogues get benefits from each, which is better and why. But, what do you do in the situation that you have a paladin tank?

Last edited by roknir : 09/18/07 at 5:15 PM.
#2643SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lunaps
Originally Posted by roknir View Post
This might have already been posted in this thread, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

I'd like to poke the bear in the cage about WF vs GoA. We know about how warriors, druids, and rogues get benefits from each, which is better and why. But, what do you do in the situation that you have a paladin tank?


I usually go with either WoA or GoA, but it depends on the rest of the group makeup. The one pally tank I run with usually asks for WoA.
#2644SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zertenia
Hi there, I am new to the forum and I have been reading this thread with much interest.

I noticed the debate regarding hit rate that you do not need to attempt to cap the limit as hit rate only effect the melee damage and not WF, SS. But although I understand that hit rate does not directly affect the windfury hit, but the original WF triggeriing attack surely is and if an attack misses, would that not be missing an opportunity for WF proc?

I currently have mid-kara gear with approx. 240 hit, 24% crit and 1200AP but is all this hit rate a waste? I do have a lot of hitrate gems.

I'm sorry if this has been talked about already but I could not find it as I did a search.

Thank you!
#2645SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Lose all the hit gems, they are not needed. I raid with around 150-170ish, and I've heard people going even lower than that. You should get some more AP, follow the gem guide on OP for socket itemization.
#2646SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
T.K.
Zertenia, the table for atks don't work that way you think.

You won't miss a chance to proc WF because of low hit. We already discussed this in here, but i'm on a rush now and can't explain it to you again. But trust us, drop hit gems, use the gems we suggest and you'll see a higher deeps.

Last edited by T.K. : 09/19/07 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Rushing grammar
#2647SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zertenia
Shwandreya, T.K,

Thanks for your replies, I was just reading through the 'combat table' and I think I figured something out... So crit hit is determined before the normanl hit on a separate probability determination... I think I have got closer to the secret! but really, how are 'casual' players menat to know all this... it was definitely not on the instruction! hehe.

Thank you people, I love this thread!
#2648SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Zertenia View Post
but really, how are 'casual' players menat to know all this... it was definitely not on the instruction!
http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t15648-i...yers_informed/
#2649SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3fjour
Hi i am new here and i am a enhance shaman as well in Jubeithos.
however my guild does not progress so well, and i was thinking how to get more ap.
The question is anyone use or test the
Darkmoon Card:Wrath
and
Darkmoon Card:Crusade?
Which one would be more useful or better in terms of pvp and pve(raid)???
I currently standing at 130 hit rating is that enought for 25 man raid???
I ty for reply and guidance.
And i apologize in advance if theres post of above statement before that i overlook, please do let me know the page

regards
#2650SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by fjour View Post
And i apologize in advance if theres post of above statement before that i overlook, please do let me know the page

regards
The least you can do before you post is read the first page (which answers your questions) and use the search function.
#2676SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shawndreya
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using [Nightfall]. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/19/07 at 11:25 AM.
#2677SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Shawndreya View Post
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using nightfall. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.
I was nothing if not comprehensive.


VVV Yeah I wasn't being serious at all. VVVV

Last edited by Shabadu : 09/19/07 at 10:29 AM.
#2678SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
I understand that, nothing against you. I'm just trying to make sure we get things as accurate as we can.
#2679SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by Shawndreya View Post
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using nightfall. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.
Oddly enough, endgame guilds on our server use Nightfall on certain boss fights. I've read around the WoW forums that other guilds use it to. Read some applications to endgame guilds from warriors and paladins some time, some say "I am willing to swing Nightfall if that's what helps the raid out.".

Crazy, I know.
#2680SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shawndreya
Hmm, how odd. To me that five second gap doesn't seem like much. But if you say end games are using it, might as well make a secondary calculation for that scenario.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/19/07 at 11:33 AM. Reason: Sticky keys
#2681SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Also just to verify what someone had corrected me on earlier - the effects of something like Scorch Debuff and Misery and CoE are applied multiplicatively and not additive, correct? ie, Bonus = 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.10
#2682SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Also just to verify what someone had corrected me on earlier - the effects of something like Scorch Debuff and Misery and CoE are applied multiplicatively and not additive, correct? ie, Bonus = 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.10
I've been under this impression for some time, but, then again, I could be wrong, too. (Lots of comas, w00t!)
#2683SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Added procs of the following trinkets:
+ Dragonspine Trophy
+ Ashtongue Talisman
+ Madness of the Betrayer
+ Hourglass of the Unraveller
+ Tsunami Talisman
Remember to add their static bonuses manually
Added procs granted by 4 pieces of the following sets:
+ T 3.5 (+160 AP for 15 sec)
+ T 4
+ T5
+ T6
+ PVP (-1s SS cooldown)
#2684SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yakout
Yo!,

Is there any hope of getting Flametongue Weapon support (along with necessary accompaniments like Spell Damage) at some far-off point in the future? Either as a serious point of inquiry, or at least as a means of demonstrating empirically to lazy skeptics that WF/WF is better?

(Again, request for when more useful stuff is all done, at some point in the future.)
#2685SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Shawndreya View Post
Hmm, how odd. To me that five second gap doesn't seem like much. But if you say end games are using it, might as well make a secondary calculation for that scenario.
We use one on our OT for fights like lurker. Not like he can do anything usefull otherwise anyway.
#2686SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
so i finally got my hands on both the syphon of nathrezim, rising tide, and dragonstrike. i know a few pages back there was some discussion that there is only a *minor* dps increase depending what you put on your mainhand, offhand first, but with no actual data or straight answer and with alot of disagreeing.

what im looking for is actual tests with data thats been done, and using the syphon on the OH, and Dragonstrike on the MH, and so on with the rising tide as well. as you guys know, syphon is 2.8, dragonstrike(mh only) 2.7, rising tide 2.6

this also might make a difference, but im sitting at 132 haste rating (12.56%).


I know on the very first post there was info about this as well, where someone would use rising tide on MH and syphon on OH and got more MH wf procs as well as syhpon on MH tide on OH but got more OH procs, but it was removed and i was curious to why?
#2687SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by kojimoto View Post
so i finally got my hands on both the syphon of nathrezim, rising tide, and dragonstrike. i know a few pages back there was some discussion that there is only a *minor* dps increase depending what you put on your mainhand, offhand first, but with no actual data or straight answer and with alot of disagreeing.

what im looking for is actual tests with data thats been done, and using the syphon on the OH, and Dragonstrike on the MH, and so on with the rising tide as well. as you guys know, syphon is 2.8, dragonstrike(mh only) 2.7, rising tide 2.6

this also might make a difference, but im sitting at 132 haste rating (12.56%).


I know on the very first post there was info about this as well, where someone would use rising tide on MH and syphon on OH and got more MH wf procs as well as syhpon on MH tide on OH but got more OH procs, but it was removed and i was curious to why?
You have the weapons, test them yourself? Otherwise, look at Yo's sim for a decent take on what the different weapon combinations will do.
#2688SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by kojimoto View Post
so i finally got my hands on both the syphon of nathrezim, rising tide, and dragonstrike. i know a few pages back there was some discussion that there is only a *minor* dps increase depending what you put on your mainhand, offhand first, but with no actual data or straight answer and with alot of disagreeing.

what im looking for is actual tests with data thats been done, and using the syphon on the OH, and Dragonstrike on the MH, and so on with the rising tide as well. as you guys know, syphon is 2.8, dragonstrike(mh only) 2.7, rising tide 2.6

this also might make a difference, but im sitting at 132 haste rating (12.56%).


I know on the very first post there was info about this as well, where someone would use rising tide on MH and syphon on OH and got more MH wf procs as well as syhpon on MH tide on OH but got more OH procs, but it was removed and i was curious to why?
There is data a few pages back with some one that used DS-MH/Syphon-OH then daul Syphons. Broken down in to dps and how much increase/decrease it was. Might be 10+ pages ago.
#2689SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
Originally Posted by rava View Post
You have the weapons, test them yourself? Otherwise, look at Yo's sim for a decent take on what the different weapon combinations will do.
if i had the time i would, i work 9 hours a day, raid for 5 hours as soon as i get home 5days a week, then spend time with the wife etc.

all i can really do is switch weapons during trash and see how big my wfs are, but i wont be able to really count numbers how much wfs my mh gets, vice versa, and even loading these data addons. il play around with that sim, doesnt seem to be what im looking for though
#2690SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I pulled it out because it was inconclusive, one test said Syphon was best MH, the other said Rising Tide was.

You might want to figure out why your shift key works for things like 'OH' and 'MH' but not for the first letter of a sentence and 'I'.
#2691SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You might want to figure out why your shift key works for things like 'OH' and 'MH' but not for the first letter of a sentence and 'I'.
i dont see any significance in that, i seperate my capitals so people dont think im saying "OH MY GOD YOUR A DOUCHE" or even yet, im MHISSPELLING. as far as making my "I" i didnt think i joined english jerks forums.
#2692SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by kojimoto View Post
i dont see any significance in that, i seperate my capitals so people dont think im saying "OH MY GOD YOUR A DOUCHE" or even yet, im MHISSPELLING. as far as making my "I" i didnt think i joined english jerks forums.
I do believe it is more about proper forum etiquette! Easier on the eyes to read proper grammar and such! Otherwise, it's like: and they were like woosh, and i was like woah, and they were like pewpewpew and then we all went out for pancakes to celebrate and i was like numnumnum
#2693SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
I think moral here is that Dragonstrike, the Syphon and Rising Tide are all really good. The tests I've seen (both empirical and simulated) imply that there isn't a heckuva lot of difference either way, so just use the ones you want and don't break the DKP bank for one of the three if you already have the other two.

Dragonstrike is going to get nerfed with the next patch, so I say main hand it while it's still worth it.

There might be a secondary moral about how the constraints of your chosen lifestyle don't induce imperative on others, but considering my chosen lifestyle is trolling forums, I should probably just clam up. Also, that "English Jerks forum" comment was damn funny.
#2694SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I do believe it is more about proper forum etiquette! Easier on the eyes to read proper grammar and such! Otherwise, it's like: and they were like woosh, and i was like woah, and they were like pewpewpew and then we all went out for pancakes to celebrate and i was like numnumnum
Understood, I'll work on my grammer since it seems to have an affect to gather answers, and as well as getting flamed for it.
#2695SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Silmeria
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Also just to verify what someone had corrected me on earlier - the effects of something like Scorch Debuff and Misery and CoE are applied multiplicatively and not additive, correct? ie, Bonus = 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.10
Correct.
#2696SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by kojimoto View Post
Understood, I'll work on my grammer since it seems to have an affect to gather answers, and as well as getting flamed for it.
http://elitistjerks.com/misc.php?do=cfrules

Put some effort into your posts. Don't spam, don't type mindless drivel and hit Post without hesitating — this isn't a chat room. Do take a moment to look over your post before you hit post. I recognize that many posters here don't speak English as their first language, and that's obviously understood and respected. Usually those posters make more comprehensible and well-constructed posts than so-called native speakers. If your post is riddled with typos and grammatical errors, we're going to assume you're an idiot with nothing worthwhile to contribute, so you're wasting your time by posting. You will be warned and banned if your posts, by virtue of their incoherence, consistently contribute nothing to discussions in which they appear.
Emphasis added.
#2697SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aefos
I was not trying to direct the QQ comment about twisting sorry if I sounded like that. Most people I talk to in game QQ about it when asked not you guys it was just a general statement.

As of the 12 seconds you do 1 ES then 6 seconds later you do 1 FS that is 12 seconds between each ES and that isn't even counting if you catch a global here and there. I was mainly stating that you can drop ES out of your SS / FS / ES rotation and losing one shock out of the 3 rotation you can replace it with totem twisting which IMO GREATLY out weighs the dps from the shock. Let alone the debuffs that could be used on someone else IE if your guild has an bird I can guarantee he will offer lap dances to any enhancement shaman who doesn't use ES on his rotations.
#2698SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Shawndreya View Post
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using [Nightfall]. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.
I have it on my weaponswap macro and throw it on when it looks like i'm going to pull aggro. No point in stopping my dps completely, and the buff really helps since we tend to run caster heavy.
#2699SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Hmm, that's an interesting strat, drats -- I suppose you'd want to avoid those nasty 2H WF procs; do you use any imbues at all?

I now know of three or four weapon/inbue swap macros for decreasing threat -- swapping for a weapon and shield (for the additional defense should aggro be pulled), swapping in fast daggers (to keep up UR), downranking Windfury and now whipping out Nightfall. All of these seem more useful than simple turning off auto-attack -- anybody else got a weapon swap strategy?
#2700SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
The WF procs aren't really a problem since max damage for nightfall is so small. I prefer to keep WF on the nightfall, since the added hits increase the proc rate.
#1621SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
New poster here. I'm a huge fan of these works, thanks for keeping them going. On to the meat.

I didn't know about that autoattacking problem - that's great info. Does that screw up your cycle so that OH will hit first everytime, or only on the initial attack?

I also wanted to ask if anyone knew of a mod where I could track any of the following - AP, weapon speed, crit - in a panel or fubar addition as opposed to opening my character panel during raids. I'm trying to mainly keep track of weapon speed to see if I'm falling into any wells at particular times.
#1622SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
2) Best combo - good slow MH and good slow OH with different speed. If they have the same speed - you will perform slightly less than similar pair of weapons with different speeds.
Someone else had mentioned this observation a week or so ago, looks like you found the data to really back it up. So the question I still have though is what direction should the speed difference be - slighly slower or faster OH?
#1623SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Morninglory View Post
New poster here. I'm a huge fan of these works, thanks for keeping them going. On to the meat.

I didn't know about that autoattacking problem - that's great info. Does that screw up your cycle so that OH will hit first everytime, or only on the initial attack?

I also wanted to ask if anyone knew of a mod where I could track any of the following - AP, weapon speed, crit - in a panel or fubar addition as opposed to opening my character panel during raids. I'm trying to mainly keep track of weapon speed to see if I'm falling into any wells at particular times.
Yes. OH will hit first everytime if you started out of combat range.
#1624SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Morninglory View Post
Does that screw up your cycle so that OH will hit first everytime, or only on the initial attack?
When I tested that, it showed the one hand that started the cycle to keep hitting first. Unless, like I said, I missed a cycle by moving out of range with auto attack still turned on, when that ocurred I had random behaviors.

So now, I just use the toggle auto attack button more. When I know I have to move out of range or get a knockback I turn it off and turn it back on only when I re-establish melee range.
#1625SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Yes. OH will hit first everytime if you started out of combat range.
So, does it pose any problems to just walk into melee range and go directly to stormstrike to start your autoattacking? I heard that it will just give 4 immediate strikes in that case.
#1626SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
I heard that it will just give 4 immediate strikes in that case.
It does, but imo its better to hold SS for a second to check if your initial swings didnt proc WF, in which case I try to time SS for when the WF cooldown is over. (no idea if that actually improves my dps, since we'r talking about a full 3 second pause?)
#1627SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Someone else had mentioned this observation a week or so ago, looks like you found the data to really back it up. So the question I still have though is what direction should the speed difference be - slighly slower or faster OH?
Can not answer it with my sim as it appears now.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/21/07 at 9:25 AM. Reason: Wrong answer
#1628SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Originally Posted by Morninglory View Post
I also wanted to ask if anyone knew of a mod where I could track any of the following - AP, weapon speed, crit - in a panel or fubar addition as opposed to opening my character panel during raids. I'm trying to mainly keep track of weapon speed to see if I'm falling into any wells at particular times.
There is no Panel mod I know of, but there are a few good mods available.

I use this one for tracking my attack speed.
Anavar's Attack Speedometer | Downloads

It basically shows the attack speed percentage and what the individual weapon attack speeds are. Its basic function is just the percentage, mess around with it a bit, the individual attack speeds can be turned on.

Another mod to check out is Index of /WF3sec/ .

This was designed by someone here on the forums. It shows attack power, crit and hit. Believe it also shows Attack Speed, but I have that function turned off. But it also shows cool down bars for the internal 3 sec Windfury timer and Stormstrike among other things.

I run both, with certain things turned off to suit my needs.
#1629SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Slower.
I went digging back to find some posts related to this. Around page 50 or so someone had posted some WWS parses with testing between Rising Tide and the Syphon to see which made the better MH/OH combo. The WWS parse showed that having the slower weapon in the MH resulted in a 10-12 DPS gain over having the OH be the slower of the two. Disquette followed up that post by stating he'd seen the same indications in his sim. Thoughts on that?
#1630SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
I personally SS every 10 seconds to keep up the SS debuff as often as possible since we run with an elemental shaman. Seems like a miniscule dps increase for a potentially larger one from a few more 20% lightning bolts per fight.
#1631SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
I'm interested in knowing why you believe this is the case, given that if you synchronize your swings you'll be getting 4 swings per flurry and your main hand will always be considered to be striking 'first' when both hands swing at the same time. I understand that there are ridges in your graph, but I don't understand why unless the only thing you're doing is modeling WFs lost to the timer, in which case you aren't taking the full gamut of mechanics in to consideration.
4 swings per flurry is exactly 1 swing from MH, 1 swing from OH, 2 extra from WF from the hand that triggered it with the MH having the priority (this was explained somewhere before). There is no hidden benifit for using same speed weapons implented by Blizz.
#1632SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
There is no Panel mod I know of, but there are a few good mods available.

I use this one for tracking my attack speed.
Anavar's Attack Speedometer | Downloads

It basically shows the attack speed percentage and what the individual weapon attack speeds are. Its basic function is just the percentage, mess around with it a bit, the individual attack speeds can be turned on.

Another mod to check out is Index of /WF3sec/ .

This was designed by someone here on the forums. It shows attack power, crit and hit. Believe it also shows Attack Speed, but I have that function turned off. But it also shows cool down bars for the internal 3 sec Windfury timer and Stormstrike among other things.

I run both, with certain things turned off to suit my needs.
Fantastic! I'll grab the both of them.

On another note, I'll be grabbing a merc. gladiator weapon tomorrow. I'm probably going to get the 2.6 axe even though aesthetically I really would like the Right Ripper. (MH only, doh....) I will be moving my current MH, netherbane, to my OH as well. I'm still tossed up on which enchant to put on my new weapon. I know this has been covered before, but I can't help thinking that I'll see a bigger gain from putting Crusader or Potency on my new weapon since Netherbane has mongoose on it already. It's not a question of money, I have the mats for either. Someone reassure me that Mongoose will really help and not push me towards some kind of diminishing crit returns while raid buffed!
#1633SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I went digging back to find some posts related to this. Around page 50 or so someone had posted some WWS parses with testing between Rising Tide and the Syphon to see which made the better MH/OH combo. The WWS parse showed that having the slower weapon in the MH resulted in a 10-12 DPS gain over having the OH be the slower of the two. Disquette followed up that post by stating he'd seen the same indications in his sim. Thoughts on that?
Run bigger test, the answer of what is the better MH/OH combo is unclear. Probably it is outside of the game mechanics covered in my sim.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/21/07 at 9:21 AM.
#1634SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
I changed my model for the new melee haste value and 1 HasteRating is now as good/bad as 1 HitRating:

Base: 989.519653 = 2200 AP, 22% Hit, 25% Crit, 0 Haste, 2.6s Weapons
+ 1% Hit: 997.479431
+ 1% Haste: 997.417542
+ 1% Crit: 1002.89575
+ 50 AP: 1003.89355

Obviously they changed it, because hasterating was superior to any other rating, now all 4 ratings are fairly consistent, even though for an enh shaman Strength is slightly superior to CritRating.
Have you even redone your model to reflect the stats of people who actually have haste rating? Seeing how it stacks up on a Kara geared player who won't have access to any is pretty pointless.
#1635SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
4 swings per flurry is exactly 1 swing from MH, 1 swing from OH, 2 extra from WF from the hand that triggered it with the MH having the priority (this was explained somewhere before). There is no hidden benifit for using same speed weapons implented by Blizz.
That isn't what I said. Normally you get 3 charges of flurry, but if your MH and OH are synchronized then they will both receive the benefit of the last charge of flurry since the debuff isn't stripped fast enough. It's the same principle as WF5/4 during the 2.0 patch. It has nothing to do with Windfury. Your simulation apparently does not consider this to be a factor so your results are incomplete.
#2901SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
I tend to agree that having secondary points in resto will still be the best (especially for totem twisting.) That said I guess it is a good thing that we are atleast talking about elemental. Though I still think any talk of Elemental devastation is absurd.

One thing I think that is being missed though is the following. Everyone is thinking purely offensively because currently that is all an enhancement shaman is. If the proposed changes go in, we will all be sitting at 700-1000 dam/healing and a quick swap to a healing weapon and healing shield will put that in the 1200+ healing range. Still not a raid healer by any means but miles ahead of where we were. The largest benefit will easily be to our healing and then searing totem and healing stream totem.

The boost to shocks will be nice but realistically our + damage is still getting butchered by the damage coefficient and cooldowns on shocks.

It is going to be pretty exciting. I have access to a rogue and already consider my shaman the best mob grinding class in the game. Give me big healing stream, and big healing waves and 30% damage reduction...
#2902SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
No, it depends on Boss' level only. From wowwiki:
Original post - Formulasamage reduction - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki
Yes the formula is for incoming damage, so you need to calculate the armor as being a level 73 boss and you're fighting level 70 enemies.

Your armor is more effective against lower level enemies obviously.

Example:

Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 67 mob, the reduction is 68.6%.
Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 70 mob, the reduction is 65.5%
Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 73 mob, the reduction is 62.6%

Currently you're calculating the reduction as if the boss is getting hit by same-level enemies (aka lvl 73 enh shaman), that is obviously wrong.
#2903SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
I find living without healing focus very difficult. Elemental or Enhance, it's the real dealbreaker for me. Another thing to consider about resto vs elemental, is that Nature's guidance is actually 6 points of hit: 3% melee and 3% spell. I won't consider speccing elemental secondary until I never want to pvp or farm on my shaman again.
The spell hit is really nice (especially since it's essentially free) and when I specced out of Healing Focus, getting a few adds was horrible when I was playing solo.

I will try an Ele minor once 2.3 goes through though. The added shock damage is nice, but I'm especially curious about how the extra spell damage will play with Improved Fire Totems (does anyone know if this affects Greater Fire Elemental?). 10% less elemental damage will be great for both raids and pvp.
#2904SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
According to the WoW shaman forums, 30/31 is the new raiding paradigm according to shaman with a grand total of 250 Neutral Rep for Violet Eye.
The Armory
#2905SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
According to the WoW shaman forums, 30/31 is the new raiding paradigm according to shaman with a grand total of 250 Neutral Rep for Violet Eye.
The Armory
Haha nice.
#2906SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
I apologize if this has been covered earlier in the thread, but it's not in the OP.


How does Haste Rating Stack with Flurry stack with Bloodlust stack with Mongoose?

With Flurry alone My attack speed with Dragonmaw is 2.08.

Maybe it's the wording of the tooltip that's confusing me, but in my world, increasing the attack speed by 30% would mean an attack speed of

2.70*0.7 = 1.89.

2.08/2.70 = ~.77

which brings me to the question, does the Haste from flurry diminish like the haste from haste rating as your progress from 60 to 70? Does the same degradation affect Bloodlust?

With Flurry and Bloodlust, my attack speed drops to 1.60.

2.08*.07 = ~1.46

1.6/2.08 = ~.77

throwing Abacus of Violent Odds in the mix,

260 Haste Rating(pre 2.2) = 24.73% haste.

That alone brings me down to 2.18 attack speed

2.70*0.7527 = 2.03

All together, I get down to 1.28 attack speed.

1.60*0.7527 = 1.2

So my question is: how do these effects apply, and in what order?
#2907SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
How does Haste Rating Stack with Flurry stack with Bloodlust stack with Mongoose?
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/10.52)))
#2908SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/10.52)))

So...

2.7/ ((1+(0.3/100)*(1+(0.3/100)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52))) = Hasted Weapon speed?

>>>

2.7/ (1.003*1.003*1.45) = 1.85

Maybe I fail at math, it's been a long time since college.

What's that 10.52 from?
#2909SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
10.52 is the current haste rating conversion to 1% haste. That will change with the next patch.

2.7/ ((1+(0.3/100)*(1+(0.3/100)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52))) = Hasted Weapon speed?
You're actually doing the 30/100 part of converting Flurry to decimal form already by plugging it in as .3. You should have

2.7/ ((1+(0.3)*(1+(0.3)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52)))

Plus 2% haste from each mongoose proc, if you really want to get silly.
#2910SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
10.52 is the current haste rating conversion to 1% haste. That will change with the next patch.


You're actually doing the 30/100 part of converting Flurry to decimal form already by plugging it in as .3. You should have

2.7/ ((1+(0.3)*(1+(0.3)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52)))

Plus 2% haste from each mongoose proc, if you really want to get silly.


oooo.

ok.

so, 1.1, which is what I get with all the buffs.

Ok, so why does 30% haste from flurry really only come out as 23%?
#2911SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Abrax View Post
What's that 10.52 from?
It's the amount of haste rating it takes for a level 70 character to have a 1% haste increase on melee attacks.
#2912SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Abrax View Post
Ok, so why does 30% haste from flurry really only come out as 23%?
What? If you're talking about its actual effect on your swing time (reducing it by 23%), consider that you can get over 100% haste. What happens at 101% haste as you're considering it? Negative swing time?
#2913SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Khlysti
30% haste means you get 30% more attacks in any unit of time, not that your swing time goes down by 30%.
#2914SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Kasi
I would love to get points in healing focus as an elemental shaman, but there is so much less wiggle room in an elemental spec then there is in enhancement. If I take more than 1 point in focus, it means losing totem range, spell hit or spell crit. All of which to me are pretty big no nos. If I could get full focus with only sacrificing 1 or maybe 2 points, than it might be plausible. but not when it means sacrificing 4 points.
#2915SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Vim
When applying AEP values to items, is there a way to weigh the value of Stam as well, or is it more of a personal preferance? Since you can easily compare strength to AP, for stam it seems to me its like comparing apples to oranges since increasing stam does not impact DPS directly, but a "dead shaman does no DPS". Some items that score high on AEP are low, or have nil stam which is less appealing to melee IMO. If there is no way to weigh it directly, is there a minimum HP suggestion for BT/Hyjal?

Last edited by Vim : 09/24/07 at 5:10 PM.
#2916SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Deck
Hello fellow Enhancers!

First time poster, long time reader (as much as possible anyway!).

I am currently applying for a pretty serious raiding guild on Executus and have found that my inappropriate "upgrades" have ended up hurting my overall DPS for end game raids. The main issue I have always had is judging which stats actually translate into the highest overall DPS gains. Anyway, whoever broke down the AEP values, thank you so much, it has helped me tremendously and with the addition of the Pawn mod, it's easy mode now on choosing upgrades.

However, on the subject of Pawn strings, I think I may found an error with the first post, which states:

Sample Pawn string to use (uses Pater and Tornhoof's AEP values):

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater/Tornhoof)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 )

Technically - shouldn't the socket values be as follows?

RedSocket = 17.6 (same) 8 x 2.2 - 17.6
BlueSocket = 8.8 (+4 str - +6 stam gem) 4 x 2.2 = 8.8
YellowSocket = 16.8 (+4 str - +4 crit gem) 4 x 2.2 + 4 x 2 = 16.8

Maybe I am missing something; some additional clarity would be welcomed. Thank you.
#2917SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Deck -- you are missing something, namely that you don't need to match colors in gem slots UNLESS you really want the socket bonus or need a certain setup for meta gems.

In most cases, you'll get more benefit out of slotting Bold Livings everywhere, which have an AEP of 17.6

Value of various exceptions can be calculated pretty easy...f'rexample, check out my leggings...i'm missing about 3.2 AEP by using two +8 crit rating gems, but the +8 AP offsets that. And I'm losing a handful of AEP from the bracers and gloves, a tradeoff made to gain a teeny bit of stamina (which obviously i need).
#2918SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Deck
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Deck -- you are missing something, namely that you don't need to match colors in gem slots UNLESS you really want the socket bonus or need a certain setup for meta gems.

In most cases, you'll get more benefit out of slotting Bold Livings everywhere, which have an AEP of 17.6
Oh duh! Jesus, how stupid on my part! That should have been blatantly obvious. Thanks for the clarification Toots.
#2919SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
• Toots Hepcat
Ahh, the Stamina thing.

Strictly speaking, the AEP of stamina is 0, because it does not contribute directly to DPS. If you can guarantee you'll never get hit, you don't need any extra health -- and if you're going to get one shot anyway, it doesn't matter what your health was before it happened. Many fights definitely have a minimum value due to AoE or cleave effects, which change depending on your raid makeup. If you group with two warriors, for example, you can effectively shave 100 +STM off your gear thanks to commanding shout.

Stamina shouldn't be in the AEP numbers, but enhancers should pick up stamina gear whenever possible. That way we can stack just enough of it to form a baseline contoured to the fight and the group, and have the rest of our gear devoted to that which maximizes our DPS.

I currently maintain two sets of DPS gear: one with a health goal of 6500 (which is a nice buffer for those bosses that have 3000 damage AoE pulses), and my high DPS set with no lower limit (and thus around 5500 health). As I push into higher tiers of raiding, I expect to push up my "survival" set's baseline to match the tougher raid bosses.

I think all of this applies to int as well. I currently have no problems with mana, but I will if I keep trading hunter/shaman/druid gear for rogue leathers.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/24/07 at 5:40 PM.
#2920SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
30% haste means you get 30% more attacks in any unit of time, not that your swing time goes down by 30%.
Thanks, that's what I needed to know.
#2921SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3djaehns
Hi Shaman friends,

first of all a big THANK YOU to all of you guys. I've learned so much about my char by goings through this whole post.

But at the moment I've still one question. A few days ago, I had a discussion with my raidleader about the setup of the melee group. We had 2 rogues, 1 offwarrior and me.

The question: Is it better to take a BM hunter (3% more damage) or a feral druid to optimize the DPS output of this group.

Are there any calculations? Especially in connection with all my melee buff?
or is it a really stupid question and the answer is very easy?

thx

Miuntar
#2922SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Vim
Originally Posted by djaehns View Post
thx

Miuntar

Uh oh
#2923SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Illundai
Bah, for quite a while I was Restoration, so I was a bit lagging behind in theorycraft about Enhancement. I didn't think much of it, but I've always socketed my gear for a LOT of crit. I checked just now and I have 32% crit unbuffed, but only 1452 AP. I started looking into my personal performance a little and I remain unsatisfied for now, really. Would my performance improve by regemming anything of my gear? I know for a fact Crit is nice, but maybe I overdid it a little. I'm not too sure anymore :E.

The Armory

Any suggestions on whether I should keep on going for this approach or not? Should I re-evaluate my sockets and value Strength a lot higher then what I do now? It's not like I completely ignored Strength, I just have a damn lot more crit :P.
I know the OP states I should gem yellow with 4 str 4 crit, but I kindly ignored that for quite a while since in the tier 5 region of gear I was in, there was quite a lot of AP/Str on the items already. Now that I've gotten some tier 6 quality gear I seem to be dropping in attack power every day :/
#2924SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Juice
Originally Posted by djaehns View Post
The question: Is it better to take a BM hunter (3% more damage) or a feral druid to optimize the DPS output of this group.
So you're asking which is better: 3% increased damage or 5% increased damage?
#2925SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
To Illundi.

Well +8 crit is 16 AEP and 8 Str is 17.6 AEP (with BOK). So from a pure min max perspective +8 Str is just better. I have always viewed 30% crit as a good breakpoint, but honestly I just go with whatever is the highest AEP return.
#3026SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Atren
Personally i would expect WF mechanics rework along with new expansion. I doubt they will be doing it earlier.

Last edited by Atren : 09/27/07 at 2:11 AM.
#3027SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
I'm thinking they might have buffed Anetheron's armor. I noticed a 1-200 dps drop for our rogues on that fight as well. While the haste and RED changes add up, I doubt it's for that much. If I had the same rogues as last week I'd be able to tell for certain.

Wow Web Stats vs last week's:Wow Web Stats
I scored my highest DPS on Anetheron this week, so I dont believe the armor of this boss has changed.

My gear has had 1 change in the last 3 weeks as far as I recall, which was the Gurtogg ring, I also switched to Band of Eternity this week, but didnt do that until after Hyjal (brain lag)

Here is the link to last nights Anetheron and the one 2 weeks before, didnt post last weeks since we had 3 rogues/warrior in group vs 2 rogues/warrrior/druid in the other two.

13th Sept Stigmata - WWS

26th Sept Stigmata - WWS

The problem for compairing the two is vast difference is crit, one week I get 31% white/30%WF and the next I get 39% white/40%WF.

Edit: I was making a poor job of totem twisting this week vs not doing it previously, which may also have skewed the results.

Last edited by Stigmata : 09/27/07 at 5:26 AM.
#3028SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0smokey
Blizzard has fixed the tooltip of ashtongue talisman with the 2.2, anyone noticed if they changed the procrate too ?
#3029SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Stigmata
Originally Posted by smokey View Post
Blizzard has fixed the tooltip of ashtongue talisman with the 2.2, anyone noticed if they changed the procrate too ?
Ive got 314 Procs out of 618 Suscessful Stormstrikes, but I dont think WWS records refreshes.
#3030SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nemaa
What is fixed in the tooltip?
I don't see any changes (searched armory, thottbot and wowhead)
#3031SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Hotiedraenei
New JC Designs for Red, Yellow, Blue Sockets

What is the thoughts on the new Epic Jewel Crafting designs for the Bind on Pickup gems available to the Jewel Crafters?

Crimson Sun

Stone of Blades

How would those compare Red Socket to the Bold Living Ruby and Yellow Socket Inscribed Noble Topaz
#3032SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0syrixx
2.3 Changes and unofficial patch notes
(Goto the above link for other changes/updates/and to click sources)
Shamans

* New Talent replacing the 2 Handed weapons one - Elemental Focus: Puts you in a "focused state" after landing a melee critical strike, reducing the mana cost of your next Shock spell by 60% (Source)
* All shaman can equip 2-Handed Axes and 2-Handed Maces without spending talent points. (Source)
* Frost shock is no longer subject to diminishing returns. (Source)
* Shamanistic rage also reduces all damages taken by 30% for the duration of the ability (30 seconds) in addition to its current effect. (Source)
* Spirit weapons reduces melee threat by 30% instead of 15%. (Source)
* Mental Quickness adds 10/20/30% to spell damage and healing bonuses based on your total Attack Power in addition to it's current effects. (Source)
* Lightning Overload now has a 4/8/12/16/20% chance to proc (Source)
* Lightning Overload damage has been decreased by 50% (Source)
* Lightning Overload now causes 0 threat (Source)
* Lightning Mastery reduced to .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds (Source)
* Mana Spring Totem now restores mana at a rate of 20 mana every 2 seconds (Source)
* Water Shield now costs 0 mana to cast, and the mana per globe has been substantially increased (Source)
* Water Shield's duration has been reduced to 1 minute, and grants mana for each globe left upon ending (Source)
* Elemental Focus will now reduce the mana cost of your next two damage spells by 40% (Source)
* Lightning Bolt casting time reduced to 2.5 seconds, and mana cost decreased (Source)
* Chain Lightning casting time reduced to 2 seconds, and mana cost decreased (Source)
Looks like they are really trying to help out our longevity. Reduced shock cost, better mana spring, and improved water shield.
#3033SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Hotiedraenei View Post
What is the thoughts on the new Epic Jewel Crafting designs for the Bind on Pickup gems available to the Jewel Crafters?

Crimson Sun

Stone of Blades

How would those compare Red Socket to the Bold Living Ruby and Yellow Socket Inscribed Noble Topaz
Edit: I should have politely said there was a post on AEP on page 1 of the thread instead of flaming or not said anything at all. Sorry I flamed

Last edited by Mbuzi : 09/27/07 at 5:07 PM. Reason: I was rude
#3034SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0• Shabadu
I noticed a push on my Council DPS this week, under pretty much exactly the same circumstances, 3 haste pots used. I only got #1 this week because a rogue ate envenon/flamestrike/blizzard. I'm thinking my shitty Anetheron dps was a fluke.

Shabadu - WWS, last week

Shabadu - WWS, last night
#3035SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Avair
* New Talent replacing the 2 Handed weapons one - Elemental Focus: Puts you in a "focused state" after landing a melee critical strike, reducing the mana cost of your next Shock spell by 60% (Source)
* All shaman can equip 2-Handed Axes and 2-Handed Maces without spending talent points. (Source)
* Frost shock is no longer subject to diminishing returns. (Source)
* Shamanistic rage also reduces all damages taken by 30% for the duration of the ability (30 seconds) in addition to its current effect. (Source)
* Mental Quickness adds 10/20/30% to spell damage and healing bonuses based on your total Attack Power in addition to it's current effects. (Source)
I know this thread does not have a PvP focus, but all of the above changes seem like a huge boost in usefulness to an enhancement shaman who might want to PvP. In particular, the Frost Shock now being a reliable snare (like Hamstring and Crippling Poison + Shiv), means an enhancement shaman should be able to stay on target.

The biggest question will be about the ease of dispellablity for Shamanistic Rage. This statement by Eynonix here:

WoW Forums -> Enhancement shaman - Low blow
Okay, sorry everyone I may have made an error. I've only been doing arenas with my shaman recently, and I've been elemental for some tim. The end result is I may have just made a total shammy Noob statement. I'm not at work to verify, as I'm off today. Is shamanistic rage currently dispelable?

Please clarify for me.
seems to imply that at least someone is aware of how, much like Pain Suppression and Bestial Wrath, a long cooldown powerful ability that can be 1 shot purged is less than desirable in PvP.

The main question will be, does this make Enh shaman viable in Arena? Time will tell I guess.
#3036SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Malan
Originally Posted by rava View Post
RED nerf getting undone also!
Well hey, look at that. We didn't need to re-calc meta gems, just like I predicted.
#3037SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Atren
Avair, unfortunaly in pvp perspective we are worse after 2.3 possibly. Rogues blind no longer poison (meaning we cant dispel it) and hunters getting dispel to their arcane shot. Also paladins seals are no longer dispellable if talented right. Overall if SR does not become immune to dispel then i would say we are clearly off worse.
#3038SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0siaheed
I've been reading through the posts about slow/slow WF/WF being "the best". I've looked at the simulations I noticed that none of these simulations include FT. I been raiding with another shaman that uses slow weapons (talon of the pheonix / runic hammer) versus my slow fast (Decap / Tracker's blade) I'm coming out on top most of the time. If possible I'd like to see a simulation that includes current WF/FT.

Sims I found that look reliable yet lacked an FT option.
crazy shaman's dps & AEP calculator

shamulator
#3039SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Malan
WWS parses and Armory links for both shaman to back that up, otherwise you're pretty much just posting hot air.
#3040SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0siaheed
Originally Posted by siaheed View Post
I've been reading through the posts about slow/slow WF/WF being "the best". I've looked at the simulations I noticed that none of these simulations include FT. I been raiding with another shaman that uses slow weapons (talon of the pheonix / runic hammer) versus my slow fast (Decap / Tracker's blade) I'm coming out on top most of the time. If possible I'd like to see a simulation that includes current WF/FT.

Sims I found that look reliable yet lacked an FT option.
crazy shaman's dps & AEP calculator

shamulator
mine

The other shaman

I will get the WWS parses as soon as possible, as our guild had a fallout and and disbanded.
#3041SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
◊ Rob
Seems to me that Evenia should be coming out on top by gear alone, but you're probably more skilled than he, or getting better party buffs. (e.g. LoTP, BS, GoA, FI?)

It's also worth noting that you're using one of the best fast OHs and he's using one of the worst slow OHs.

Last edited by Rob : 09/27/07 at 11:50 AM.
#3042SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Malan
What you really need to tell us is whether you swapping in a slow weapon with WF on the same fights with same conditions produces better results. Comparing yourself to another shaman is going to be difficult - especially since right now we don't even know what fight you're talking about.

Edit - you're also going to need to provide pretty detailed consumable use and group structure to back up any claim like that. If you're getting Battleshout or LotP, and he's not, that's a huge frigging deal. Also as Rob said above, you're using a 100 DPS dagger and he's using one of the least preferred 80 DPS slow off hands.

Last edited by Malan : 09/27/07 at 11:57 AM.
#3043SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0wocket
Im just wondering, will the Mental Quickness change coming in 2.3 have any effect on the current AEP numbers or cause any significant change in the relative values of certain stats?
#3044SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0siaheed
I don't switch weapons at all I'm using WF on my MH and FT on my OH, through trash and bosses. The only time I'm seeing a drop in Dps is on the banshee's in Hyjal when they put up anti-magic aura.

It's also worth noting that you're using one of the best fast OHs and he's using one of the worst slow OHs.
This alone may be the difference causing me to do more, however I'm still trying to track down some WWS, maybe tonight I will have them.

another thing, has anyone tried a Lightning capacitator with FT? does it work?
#3045SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Malan
Nope.

How big of a DPS gap are you talking about here anyways?
#3046SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0• Toots Hepcat
Stick with what you like, but if when get a chance for a 2.6s offhand drop, try it out.

I've tried swapping my WF [Boggspine Knuckles] for FT [Guile of Khoraazi] and it's about a 20 dps falloff with the faster weapon.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing an options to try ANY imbue in simulators, in part because it would help prove theories. I sometimes use Rockbiter when helping out new tanks, as i then get the Spirit Weapons reduction over 80% of my damage, instead of merely 50%.
#3047SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0fatforprom
Originally Posted by siaheed View Post
another thing, has anyone tried a Lightning capacitator with FT? does it work?
Yes it does work. It's a neat idea but with such an awful spell crit rating in Enhancement gear, i don't see how it would be effective.

Back to lurking I go ...
#3048SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Multane
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Stick with what you like, but if when get a chance for a 2.6s offhand drop, try it out.

I've tried swapping my WF [Boggspine Knuckles] for FT [Guile of Khoraazi] and it's about a 20 dps falloff with the faster weapon.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing an options to try ANY imbue in simulators, in part because it would help prove theories. I sometimes use Rockbiter when helping out new tanks, as i then get the Spirit Weapons reduction over 80% of my damage, instead of merely 50%.
Can you elaborate on those %ages please? I've seen other people claim that the spirit weapons threat reduction doesn't apply to WF and Stormstrike attacks, but i've never seen any proof.

If that is indeed what you are saying, and you have proof, would you please share it with me?

Last edited by Multane : 09/27/07 at 12:58 PM. Reason: spelling
#3049SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0smokey
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
What is fixed in the tooltip?
I don't see any changes (searched armory, thottbot and wowhead)
Ok maybe it was just a bug with the located french version, it was like "Stormstrike has a 5246qs@% chance to grant up to 413433s$ attack power for 10 sec." Now it shows the correct numbers.

Glad they havent changed the insane proc rate ^^
#3050SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Malan
CM posts in the Shaman forum yesterday stated that the QA team reported back that Spirit Weapons affects *all* melee damage not just white attacks.
#3126SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
Originally Posted by onibox View Post
Hi guys is my first post here.. I have a NOOB question.. whats is the best Cycle to get my DPS max on raids? I was a rogue but i reroll to shamy, i already have a nice gear and all right enchants, but i cant do dps with my shamy. Someone can help me? Here is my armory: The Armory

Thank for your help and best regards



Irontaker/Hatebringer
Yeah, that defenitly is a 'noob' question.

First: read the first post of this topic.
Secondly: Give me a list of all the spells you use as enhance shaman when dpsing
Finally: Notice how all of them (besides totem twisting) are on a cooldown. What does this tell you about 'cycles'?

Dont go post stupid questions here if you are not going to take the time to think about the problem yourself abit.

Also, dont sign your posts.
#3127SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Aeolian
Onibox: I'm pretty sure its all in the first post, but generally its Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Earth Shock rinse and repeat. This is if your not twisting.

Don't sign your posts, and try reading the first post of threads you decide to 'contribute' to.

Tq: No.
#3128SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nobunda
Had a interesting run in with I guess a fellow shaman (makes me cringe cause this guy was... well just one of those people that scare you when you think "There are really people out there like that").

Dont know who he was, a troll for sure cause he wouldn't bother to give me his Mains name. Nonetheless this person gave me the complete rundown on how to play a shaman using this place as his bible of course. Used my armory as a basis of his discussion (I guess armory is the best way to see what people are rolling with every minute of the game... learn something new everyday /sigh ) and to top it off, was very unprofessional about it. Now not being professional about the conversation wasn't a big surprise cause its World of warcraft, epeens can get stretched to there finest here. But nonetheless I figured a lil definition was in order... since some people lose site of people that believe everything they read... and those that actually see for themselves.

Theory - The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them. In this usage, the word is synonymous with hypothesis. This common usage of theory leads to the common but misguided statement "It's not a fact, it's only a theory."

In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and general relativity.
Now heres my question, I understand the fact that patch 2.3 isnt here yet. Am I the only one in this world currently testing different weapon/gear combinations to see if WF/FT or WF/FB is gonna be viable? I know you cant actually see the numbers for yourself but other things play into the effects like FT (weapon speed effects the amount of dam, etc.. that kinda stuff)

On a added note, because I really enjoyed the lude conversation I had with this person. He ran down everything that can be read here. I would like to say... awesome compilation of stuff and its all a very good read. It has helped my dps tremendously. Great job to those that have made this information viable by testing it and for putting it all in one place. Thank you. As well sorry for posting the definition... just kinda felt it was necessary in my own mind.
#3129SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Aeolian
Your not the only one currently testing (or at least considering testing when the PTR comes on line) the viability of WF/FT or WF/FB or whatever other combination you care to come up with, but as of right now WF/WF will continue to offer the best overall DPS in most raid situations. Granted there are several debuffs available in raids that would increase the damage output of Flametongue, fast weapons would allow for constant procs and with the increased spell damage it could become a starting point, but I very much doubt it will overtake Windfury in pure DPS out put. Yes, these are mainly my own assumptions and observations, when the test realm comes online I will be doing my own testing to see what works.
#3130SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nobunda
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
Your not the only one currently testing (or at least considering testing when the PTR comes on line) the viability of WF/FT or WF/FB or whatever other combination you care to come up with, but as of right now WF/WF will continue to offer the best overall DPS in most raid situations. Granted there are several debuffs available in raids that would increase the damage output of Flametongue, fast weapons would allow for constant procs and with the increased spell damage it could become a starting point, but I very much doubt it will overtake Windfury in pure DPS out put. Yes, these are mainly my own assumptions and observations, when the test realm comes online I will be doing my own testing to see what works.
By no means am I using wf/ft, etc in raids... just on various mobs elsewhere. I have seen first sight that WF/WF is the best combo and still continue to use it. You have answered my question.. thanks.
#3131SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Shery
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
If you have it available to you, you should get the [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] because you are not using Axes. The belt gives +skill ratiing to every one hand weapon with the exception of Axes. So the fact your using Maces is good, you can also use Fist weapons. And yes they are talking about 5 points that will take you from 350 to 355. As far as the Decapitator and Fool's Bane go, I was actually much happier using the Fool's Bane over the Decapitator, but I had very high Crit for a long time so I was gaining more from the Fool's Bane overall. Pick it up and play around with them, see which one works best for you.

Another item that goes along with the belt decently, although I believe the Tier gloves are better ( I haven't run the numbers yet ), are these: [Gloves of the Searing Grip].
Thx a lot for the help Aeolian; I´ll try messing around with both and boost a little my crit for the Fool´s bane.

I had my eyes on those gloves too... in fact I think they are a great way of getting that +5 skill on maces before I can get my hands on the belt (my Guild hasnt killed Vashj just yet but we´re nearly there ). A shame they are a random trash drop form Kara :p

Pd: its a shame this itemization thing doesnt let us use Axes if we arent Orcs... i really love the way the axes look on my Shamy

Last edited by Shery : 09/30/07 at 1:30 PM.
#3132SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Tornhoof
NM, the problem is the 1.5/1.51 calculation.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

Last edited by Tornhoof : 09/30/07 at 2:12 PM.
#3133SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0rava
Originally Posted by Shery View Post
Thx a lot for the help Aeolian; I´ll try messing around with both and boost a little my crit for the Fool´s bane.

I had my eyes on those gloves too... in fact I think they are a great way of getting that +5 skill on maces before I can get my hands on the belt (my Guild hasnt killed Vashj just yet but we´re nearly there ). A shame they are a random trash drop form Kara :p

Pd: its a shame this itemization thing doesnt let us use Axes if we arent Orcs... i really love the way the axes look on my Shamy
Searing Grip are from Al'ar, I don't recall what the trash gloves are called.
#3134SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Shery
You´re right rava, my mistake. I was confusing them with this ones Grips of Deftness - Items - World of Warcraft

Quite similar anyway ^^
#3135SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Shery View Post
Currently I have Fool´s Bane as MH. Lots of ppl has been saying to me lately that I should get The Decapitator... beeing it an axe; is this true?
The Decapitator's definitely an upgrade from Fool's Bane. Get one, but keep your Fool's Bane banked in case you pick up +mace skill itemization. (Keep in mind we don't know what will be in ZA.)
#3136SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ fangar
I know a friend of mine ran a few sims with Decap vs Fools Bane and Fools Bane came out a tiny bit better using Yo's Sim. I didn't question it at the time and just figured the stats from FB outweighed it.

I'll have to model it, but it was interesting and unexpected.

Can we just ignore the questions clearly asking about stuff that has been discussed?
#3137SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Pitbuller
You have to calculate +3dps from [ The Decapitator ] use effect.
#3138SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Can people please stop sending me PMs about whether X or Y item is better? I honestly don't give a shit about your armory, and 90% of you that are asking me questions are way ahead of me in progression anyways.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3139SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Aeolian
Poor Malan, thats what you get for starting a legendary thread.

Anyways, like I said, the Decapitator would be an upgrade, but my personal stance is that the Fool's Bane offers much more to you then the Decapitator and you don't lose out on much not using the Decapitator.
#3140SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Shery
My intent wasnt about asking if X weapon was better than Y weapon. it was merely a doubt about the +skill as I didnt fully understand it in the OP. My apoligies if I brought up something already discussed in the thread and thx a lot for the help
#3141SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Shery View Post
My intent wasnt about asking if X weapon was better than Y weapon. it was merely a doubt about the +skill as I didnt fully understand it in the OP. My apoligies if I brought up something already discussed in the thread and thx a lot for the help
I wasn't referring to you, you didn't send me a PM.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3142SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Aeolian
And he wasn't referring to you Malan. He was talking to me, and I believe that the Decapitator and Fool's Bane discussion was referring to something else. So.. everyone is confused.
#3143SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Chutoi
I'll apologize in advance for this next post, but I'll ask it anyway.

I have 2 very fast weapons (bad I know). I understand that a slow offhand will increase dps as it eats fewer windfuries. However, I don't understand why a slow mainhand is good, unless it's to increase the size of the windfury crits (ie, large damage on slower weapons). Is that the thought process? Does a fast offhand really do all that badly? It seems like it would be more likely to proc a windfury once you're out of the 3 second internal cooldown.

At any rate, while I'm working on a new 2.6 speed arena weapon for my offhand, which would be more effective:

Runic Hammer: 83.5dps, 16 stam, 50 AP, and 2.4 speed

or

High Warlord's Cleaver 71.7 dps, 18 stam, 8 hit rating, 26 ap, 13 crit strike, 9 resiliance, and 2.6 speed?

Does the additional .2 speed offset a 12 dps difference? I just don't understand the model.

Sorry for the dumb questions, guys. I apologize for being slow!

Chutoi
#3144SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
The reason is that with flurry, haste procs, instants, etc, you can be pretty certain you'll proc WF very fast once you'r out of the CD. Do you want that WF proc to come from a weapon with a 170-330 dmg weapon or a 100-190 dmg weapon?

About the weapons, my money is on the runic hammer, but just run Yo!'s sim (linked in the first post).
#3145SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Aknazer
Its not just the damage range on the weapon that matters for why a slow weapon is better, it's also because of the AP multiplier. 2.6 is a better multiplier than 1.8 is in terms of converting the AP into actual damage, which is another reason why slow weapons are better.

__________________
#3146SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0VinnieJones
Originally Posted by fangar View Post
I know a friend of mine ran a few sims with Decap vs Fools Bane and Fools Bane came out a tiny bit better using Yo's Sim. I didn't question it at the time and just figured the stats from FB outweighed it.

I'll have to model it, but it was interesting and unexpected.

Can we just ignore the questions clearly asking about stuff that has been discussed?
Yeah, the decap came out 1dps lower than Fool's Bane in the sims I ran not counting the use function. That being said I just can't see using the throw function all that often, and it is on a three minute cooldown.
#3147SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Why would you not use the throw function every single time it's up? It's like an earth shock with no mana cost.
#3148SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0VinnieJones
To be honest, I had the decap for about a day before I decided I was tired of respeccing so often and decided to finish my second shaman as enhancement with blacksmithing and keep Vinnie as elemental. So I just didn't have time to figure out if the use would reset the swing timer, cause a gcd, or some other goofiness. That and it just never occurred to me to use it point blank. Curses for my first character being a hunter, and their dead zone.
#3149SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0david0925
I'm actually a bit curious about how good the 5 piece Cataclysm set is (5% extra to Flurry haste). Since aside from the Helm and the gloves, there are alternatives to the other 3 slots that are better, so I am wondering about a value (intuitive or quantative) of this bonus, then I can calculate to look at whether its worth it to go for it or not?
#3150SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Unaz
Originally Posted by VinnieJones View Post
To be honest, I had the decap for about a day before I decided I was tired of respeccing so often and decided to finish my second shaman as enhancement with blacksmithing and keep Vinnie as elemental. So I just didn't have time to figure out if the use would reset the swing timer, cause a gcd, or some other goofiness. That and it just never occurred to me to use it point blank. Curses for my first character being a hunter, and their dead zone.

The use is instant, and I never noticed it resetting my swing timer. I macroed it to my Stormstrike like thus:

/use The Decapitator
/startattack
/cast Stormstrike
#3151SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0rava
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
I'm actually a bit curious about how good the 5 piece Cataclysm set is (5% extra to Flurry haste). Since aside from the Helm and the gloves, there are alternatives to the other 3 slots that are better, so I am wondering about a value (intuitive or quantative) of this bonus, then I can calculate to look at whether its worth it to go for it or not?
5*15.76*1.4*flurryuptime% for rough numbers.
#3152SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Galeyra
I got a beginner's question.
I know shocks dont reset your swing timer, but a friend of mine recently told me, that if you shock when your swingtimer is ready, you just shock, and the autohit doesnt hit and is lost.
I tried to reproduce this by shocking exactly when i would be hitting, but the attacks hits always, just the swing animation often got lost.
So, is my friend wrong? And please help me to disprove him, because he insists on his opinion.
Thanks for your reply
#3153SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Sounds like you already solved the problem. Show him a combat log.
#3154SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nisall
I think you are correct in saying that only the animation gets lost. It is very easy to prove to your friend just take a screen shot of your combat log with timestamps showing that your swing and shock damage happen at the same time

EDIT: Too slow
#3155SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Can anyone provide the math for Unleashed Rage uptime in terms of Crit Rating, for both DW and 2H scenarios?
#3156SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
For DW it's something like 97%+ in any raid buffed scenario so it's pretty irrelevant.

For 2H I would think it would be something like:
% Up = 1 - (1-Crit Rating)^(10/Weapon Speed)

So for WS 3.8 and CR 30%
% Up = 1 - (1 - .3)^(10/3.8) = 1 - .7^2.63 = 1 - .39 = 61%

You know, I just realized this is wrong since I didn't consider Flurry in the Weapon Speed term -- and this is why closed-form models are so hard to create for Shamans. I'll post it anyways as a starting point.
#3157SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0VinnieJones
Originally Posted by Unaz View Post
The use is instant, and I never noticed it resetting my swing timer. I macroed it to my Stormstrike like thus:

/use The Decapitator
/startattack
/cast Stormstrike
Hey, that is excellent. Thank you.
#3158SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
oogg
No Text.

Last edited by oogg : 10/03/07 at 5:17 PM. Reason: removed post since someone else clarified formulas
#3159SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Areus
One thing that may need to be fixed as well, is that for DW, the WF proc% is 36% outside the 3s rule. The 2h would still have a 20% proc rate though.
#3160SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Dyamito
Ring enchants, was wondering what is best for dps. I see some enhancement shamans with 12 spell damage to rings, with 2.3 coming out and upping our spell damage, I have a feeling that isn't the best. 2 damage to rings seems good, but for some reason I think having an altogether 8str, 8agi, 8stam, etc would just be overall better for dps in pve. Just was wondering your thoughts.


Thanks,
The Resto Shaman
#3161SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
Originally Posted by Dyamito View Post
Ring enchants, was wondering what is best for dps. I see some enhancement shamans with 12 spell damage to rings, with 2.3 coming out and upping our spell damage, I have a feeling that isn't the best. 2 damage to rings seems good, but for some reason I think having an altogether 8str, 8agi, 8stam, etc would just be overall better for dps in pve. Just was wondering your thoughts.


Thanks,
The Resto Shaman
Use the search function, dont sign your posts.

(I should make that my signature)
#3162SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Dyamito
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
Use the search function, dont sign your posts.

(I should make that my signature)
Yeah didn't see search till just now, are we not allowed to sign our posts?
#3163SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Its discouraged. You have a big huge profile to the left of the post content that tells us who you are.
#3164SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Aknazer
WF totem and warrior...WTF

Alright now I know that this has been beat into the ground and WF>GoA for warriors and non dagger rogues (am yet to see anything convincing saying WF>GoA for dagger rogues post nerf), but I was flipping through WWS reports of Lurker and this is what I found

Bood - WWS - 516 dps with GoA

Bood - WWS - 630 dps with GoA

Bood - WWS - 652 dps with WF

Now that first attempt was our first time to down Lurker which is why I think its so much lower than the other 2, but in that last attempt he even had a Bloodmoon as opposed to the Lunar Cresent version for the first 2 kills. I would have expected his DPS to be much higher with WF over GoA. Sadly the rogues didn't take off their poisons even though I told them I wanted to test out WF to see the dps differences so I can't compare their dps of GoA vs WF, but Conobum (our best dagger rogue) did lose about 50dps by not having GoA.

And the reason I normally have GoA down is because our group makeup is normally a feral druid, the war (he's a 33/28 2h slam spec), 2 dagger rogues, and me. Has anyone else seen things like this or have WWS reports of a war using GoA and then using WF on the same boss to compare the difference?
#3165SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Pitbuller
Couple random WWS report dont proof anything but bad fluke. In second try he did more slams(42) and less autos(53) than third try slams(37), auto+wf(63). Some how he have lots of misses at last try 7-10% vs 3% misses at second.
#3166SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Makes perfect sense to me that you're not seeing the gains you'd think you would. He's an Arms warrior and they took a heavy hit from the totem change, and most importantly he didn't use any "On next hit" attacks (Heroic Strike) and used Slam instead. Slam will not proc WF, and neither will Mortal Strike. So basically you put WF down and he got his procs only from his auto attacks.

Summary - your warrior needs to learn to use Windfury better.
#3167SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2evilution
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
One thing we have still not addressed is the Stormstrike cycling. We need some modeling and/or testing to determine if the 'use it when its lit' or 'use it only when a WF cooldown has ended' is the best methodology. We'll need to know that the supposedly increased windfury procs are going to offset the 5% (or more) loss of Stormstrike damage by not using it every 10 sec.

Edit - to clarify, we've had many people talk about using the "wait till I'm off WF CD" method, but nobody has provide any sort of modeling or testing numbers to actually back it up. All we have so far is anecdotal stories.
Has anyone (Yo! perhaps) built this into their modeling programs? I have tried to search through the thread and could not find an answer.

It would be interesting to have a switch to turn this on and off within the model.
#3168SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
He's planning to do so, its a grayed out option on one of the panes. Just not implemented yet.

Simulator stuff is great, but we really need to grab the "why" of it so that I can present it in the article. Telling someone 'its better because the sim says so' will still generate a lot of responses of "well I do it this way, and its better."
#3169SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aett
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Makes perfect sense to me that you're not seeing the gains you'd think you would. He's an Arms warrior and they took a heavy hit from the totem change, and most importantly he didn't use any "On next hit" attacks (Heroic Strike) and used Slam instead. Slam will not proc WF, and neither will Mortal Strike. So basically you put WF down and he got his procs only from his auto attacks.

Summary - your warrior needs to learn to use Windfury better.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Heroic Strike consumes your auto-attack? So the number of chances to proc windfury stays the same.

Also, many warriors don't use heroic strike because it has a strong, positive threat modifier on it. So if he's threat capped (which I can't imagine he is with that dps number) then it would make sense for him not to be using it.
#3170SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Sure but Slam resets the swing timer, consumes rage, and does not proc WF.
#3171SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
♦ fangar
It's an interesting conversation and probably edges into the Arms warrior discussion thread. Prior to the WF Nerf Slam was without a doubt the best use of rage and effective DPS an arms warrior could do. If timed properly (just like a hunter rotation because of swing time resets) it far outshone using heroic strikes.

It would be interesting to see if there is any appreciable difference now with the WF nerf when working in HS. My thinking would be that Slam would still win out and the rotation will probably look like:

Slam, Auto, MS, Auto, Slam

As for the logs up top. You will notice differences in the set-ups that would tell an incomplete story. If you look at the parse where the warrior had WF you will see that he Deathwished just once vs 2 in the second parse and 3 in the third parse.

Extra attack + more rage (for more damage) will always beat a couple percent more crit and sharpening stones IMO all else being equal.

Last edited by fangar : 10/02/07 at 11:08 AM.
#3172SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2ryakaz
Can [Fel Edged Battleaxe] be better than [Runic Hammer] for DPS because I can put [Bold Living Ruby].
#3173SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ fangar
Read the first post.
Figure out if there are ANY tools linked there that may be able to answer your question.
#3174SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aknazer
Originally Posted by fangar View Post
It's an interesting conversation and probably edges into the Arms warrior discussion thread. Prior to the WF Nerf Slam was without a doubt the best use of rage and effective DPS an arms warrior could do. If timed properly (just like a hunter rotation because of swing time resets) it far outshone using heroic strikes.

It would be interesting to see if there is any appreciable difference now with the WF nerf when working in HS. My thinking would be that Slam would still win out and the rotation will probably look like:

Slam, Auto, MS, Auto, Slam

As for the logs up top. You will notice differences in the set-ups that would tell an incomplete story. If you look at the parse where the warrior had WF you will see that he Deathwished just once vs 2 in the second parse and 3 in the third parse.

Extra attack + more rage (for more damage) will always beat a couple percent more crit and sharpening stones IMO all else being equal.

That is about the rotation that is used only with WW worked in when MS is on CD and I think an extra reg attack when both MS and WW are on CD (happens every third rotation). Also he went with this spec for the extra 4% physical damage talent which helps all phyiscal damage dealers
#3175SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Some napkin math on that follows using the average hit values from Loading...

No slam, no HS:
Per 3.7 seconds: 788 + (788*.2) = 945.6
255 dps

Slam, assuming .8 average swing timer disruption (improved slam):
Per 4.5 seconds: 788 + (788*.2) + 979 = 1924.6
427 DPS

Heroic strike:
Per 3.7 seconds: 988 + (788*.2) = 1145.6
309 DPS

Slam is still superior by quite a bit if it's used correctly, and it is considerably less threat, and doesn't take away the rage generated by the white hit.
#1936SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
I'm gonna go model it with WF procing right off the beginning and see if the results change any. brb lol
#1937SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
If you want to make a better one to replace the one I made, be my guest.
#1938SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
If your talkin about reworking your 2.6/1.5 set-up I think I could whip somethin up for ya :P. But in no way am I tryin to out-do you good sir :P
#1939SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
#1940SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Ayror View Post
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
I didn't get to see the first one but how do you plan to account for Flurry? The 3 charges vs 2 swing cycle may makes all this futile... Are you assuming Flurry is always UP (or always down)?
#1941SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is probably best to model it with flurry since flurry will up most of the time.
#1942SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ayror
I'll make up a formula right now that will calculate Flurry with the model I just reworked.

Edit: The formula is proving to be more work than I first thought. This will take a little more time.

Edit2: Just doing some quick math and unofficially checked numbers, I'm showing that for every first strike cycle (cycle = the time between when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit at the same time until the next time when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit toghther again) that for every time 1 MH hit turns into an OH hit, an OH hit in the cycle turns into a MH hit. More calculations show that you would need over 13 mins of straight, non-intueruppted melee dps to have a cycle that only switches a MH hit to an OH hit. I don't know about you but that sounds pretty boring to me!

To show what I mean by a cycle, I'll put up one reworked graph...so I don't confuse anyone.



Don't worry about the 7.7, that graph isn't totally finished.

Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 4:09 PM.
#1943SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3s315h1n
Head Enchants

Hey, great stuff in here.

I was browsing some other shaman around and I noticed one of them went with the Glyph of the Outcast (37.4 AEP) over the Glyph of Ferocity (56.4 AEP).

I didn't see mention of head enchants in the itemization portion of the OP. I'm sure it boils down to preference but from a pure DPS standpoint I'd go with Ferocity.
#1944SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I would tend to agree with you on that. The intellect on the Outcast enchant isn't really value added, whereas the Hit rating on the Ferocity is.
#1945SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Maybe he wasn't CE Revered, because Glyph of Ferocity is straight-up better.

Also, it might just be me, but I don't understand that graph. Are you saying that it takes 13m to get an extra MH attack in eligible to proc WF? Wouldn't this vary based on randomness due to WF procs?
#1946SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Ayror, I'm not getting your graph.. I think your legend isn't complete / good enough.. Maybe I'm dumb but I don't get the difference of tones in the 2 color per hands.. So I have trouble getting when is it that your hand swings.
#1947SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
The 2 different shades are alternating reset timers for the swings i.e. At the line between the bright color and shaded color is where the swing occurs. The 1st swing reset of each weapon is bright, the 2nd reset is shaded, the 3rd is bright, the 4th is shade, etc.

The red lines are the end of the 3sec hidden cooldown on WF counting from the 1st swing to land after the previous WF CD is gone.

The little squares on top just show which hand is the one that procs WF.

@Ayror, I have 2 comments
1. It is hard to see the color difference of the small squares indicating 'Possible WH hit'. Maybe use the bright versions of the colors instead of the shaded ones
2. The internal cooldown for the swing between the red lines 1 and 2 is 9 squares instead of 10 like all the others. This will mean the OH will be the 1st swing after red line 2.

EDIT: reworded some sentences
#1948SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Yea like I said that graph isn't complete at all, and I understand how you guys can be confused.

@Apsalar-
That's is definately one mistake about the red lines, but it's not 9 it's 11 squares ><. Again, it's not fully complete!

@Iol-
The legend is not fully understandable. I'll switch up the colors and such to make it more understandable.

I plan on making a new graph that includes flurry is up the whole time. Not using the graphs, my math has been showing that a MH will hit more than the OH with the syphon in the OH. I'll fix it all up when I can.

Thank you for the feedback, it's helpin me figure out the flaws and pointing me in the right direction in my calculations
#1949SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is 11 from the last red line, but 9 from the 1st swing to land after the red line All the others are fine.

Kudos to you for your effort!
#1950SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Cele, I bet you lost ~1% of your total dps because your elemental shaman was eating your debuffs. Which is fine; I guarantee he put them to good use.
Not worth to mention. I dont see that as being "ninjad", ele shaman gets much more out of that 20% than my lousy shock. Actually, if there would be some way to make sure that its ele shaman who gets to eat thoes buffs, Id be happy. But currenty rogues poison eats majority of them. Anyone has done some workaround on it? Is there, group-DPS wise, alternative, like shaprening stones or something?
#3301SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2berg
The leather/mail dispute really becomes a non factor at T6. There are a lot of random pieces and fortunately for us the rogues and hunters love their T6 sets.

Our T6 set is a little bit skanky except for the gloves which are top notch. So picking up random mail/leather is really easier than it has ever been.

Seriously though our T6 set is going to look even worse in 2.3. Who needs 40 mp5? Those points could have been like 50 agi and -350 armor or something along those lines which would have made the set amazing.
#3302SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2david0925
Originally Posted by fangar View Post
I've been following the Moogle revolution and am so tempted to Honk Honk, but I just don't want to see like a follower. Must resist the Moogle.

Umm to keep this Enhancement Shaman related.
Should I be using a Malchazeen with Flametongue? I hear it's just awesome for max DPS.








I kid. I kid.
only if you use a Emerald Ripper in your offhand with rockbiter
#3303SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Stigmata
Originally Posted by berg View Post
The leather/mail dispute really becomes a non factor at T6. There are a lot of random pieces and fortunately for us the rogues and hunters love their T6 sets.

Our T6 set is a little bit skanky except for the gloves which are top notch. So picking up random mail/leather is really easier than it has ever been.

Seriously though our T6 set is going to look even worse in 2.3. Who needs 40 mp5? Those points could have been like 50 agi and -350 armor or something along those lines which would have made the set amazing.
Where do i see the new T6 sets? I hadn't heard of them being changed.

Also "Skanky" the set while it has wasted points on mp5 is still really good imo, the hit lost from the alternatives is, well, not acceptable to me at least.
#3304SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ridan
Where do i see the new T6 sets? I hadn't heard of them being changed.
The paladin changes list stated a rework of the t4/t5/t6 retribution set to match with their talents modifications.
Nothing official of course.
#3305SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
♦ Malan
Looks like wowdigger.com still has a char planner available so I'm working on the entry level shaman set now.

Edit - bah nevermind their interface seems broken, lots of items won't add to the character. Maybe we can just find an armor profile of someone who closely matches the approximation?

Last edited by Malan : 10/04/07 at 1:31 PM.
#3306SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2berg
There are no changes to shaman T6. Just noticing how mp5 will be even less valuable next patch than it is now since our mana burden goes down in 2.3.

That said I have avoided t6 entirely aside from the gloves. I agree that the hit is hard to make up but some of those pieces are genuinely confusing with their over spending on stam, int and mp5.
#3307SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
This thread [RAID] Boss armor values has some good data that I'm sure some people here would be interested in.
#3308SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
One page ago you were saying that I need to put a line up that says "wear more leather," and now you're questioning taking leather over rogues because they get more DPS out of it? Make up your mind.
You miss my point. Let me try this again. Do you agree with me on these points?

1) Rogues and hunters would get bigger dps increases from leather and mail upgrades (respectively) than we would, if both of us were moving from the same piece to the same piece.

2) If an enhance shaman, a hunter, and a rogue are all geared in the best gear they can get from heroics with no Kara gear, and all are allowed to roll on any items that are an upgrade for them, and all go to Kara together every week, the Shaman will get upgrades faster than either of the other two.

My point isn't that we shouldn't be allowed to roll on anything but scraps. My point is, we should pick either rolling on mail but getting leather when the rogues/druids don't want it, or getting leather and rolling on mail when hunters don't want it. The reason is, if we don't do it that way, then we'll be gearing up faster than either of them, even though we can't put that gear to as good of use as they can.

I can't imagine a guild (non-DKP at least) that wouldn't have a problem with you rolling on anything that's an upgrade for you. If you do use DKP, I think it's smarter to wait for the best gear for you at every level, which is always going to be leather.

If everyone thinks we should be valuing mail, then put an AEP behind it. From my perspective, mail is almost always worse than leather, and it's only going to be moreso after 2.3, when water shield will mean we would have minimal mana issues, even in all leather.

Last edited by Ilmater : 10/04/07 at 1:49 PM.
#3309SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2BoinKlasik
edit: nevermind, i post too slow.
#3310SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
My point isn't that we shouldn't be allowed to roll on anything but scraps. My point is, we should pick either rolling on mail but getting leather when the rogues/druids don't want it, or getting leather and rolling on mail when hunters don't want it. The reason is, if we don't do it that way, then we'll be gearing up faster than either of them, even though we can't put that gear to as good of use as they can.
This is entirely a DKP system discussion. If you are in a system that lets you choose either leather OR mail, then yes, by all means, take both as the opportunity presents itself. Clearly if you are able to take an item its because you have more points, higher priority, won the roll, loot council approved it, whatever. At that point it doesn't matter who can get a higher gain from the item, the loot system will have already established that the rogues/hunters are lower in priority because they probably have recently looted items. Its got nothing to do with whether we "should" do so.

If you do use DKP, I think it's smarter to wait for the best gear for you at every level, which is always going to be leather.
Waiting for items is silly, I've had guys in guilds refuse to upgrade gear because they wanted that one "uber item" off the endboss. What's the point of that? In the meantime you're falling farther and farther behind everyone else who IS upgrading. If I need new gloves, and T5 gloves drop, why should I pass those up while *hoping* that I might have a crack at some better leather ones later?

As I said, I take every upgrade as it presents itself. If its mail and there's better leather out there, well I'll either wait my turn on it or maybe the rogues will drop in priority before that item drops and I'll get it anyways. Drops are not guaranteed. You could pass an upgrade on a mail item only to never see the leather one. Does that make sense?

Its fine if you disagree, that's your method in your system. But I'm not going to make a blanket statement of "never take mail" or "only take it under X Y and Z situations" because that is highly dependent upon the individual player and their guild environment.

Edit @Boink - No. 2.3 is changing talents such that Enhance will be more mana efficient, thus making the value of Mp5 even worse. No changes to gear have been announced or even rumored.

Last edited by Malan : 10/04/07 at 1:59 PM.
#3311SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Kemerogh
DKP and Item Priority

When you're in a guild enviorment you're focus should be on the progression of the guild. If there is an Item that will increase youre overall Dps or effectivness to the raid what so ever over somthing you have now and would not net gain the raid more by going to another player than you should take it regardless of your loss of priority if the famed X item drops that you want. You should be trying to get as good as possible as quickly as possible. Not passing on items because you would like to hope for somthing better later on.
#3312SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Juice
Can we debate DKP and looting practices someplace else? This thread is better off discussing the bottom line impact/effectiveness of loot item X or Y, not which class should have first loot priority or if a guild should allow DKP stockpiling in the face of upgrades.
#3313SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Originally Posted by Kemerogh View Post
When you're in a guild enviorment you're focus should be on the progression of the guild. If there is an Item that will increase your overall Dps or effectivness to the raid what so ever over something you have now and would not net gain the raid more by going to another player than you should take it regardless of your loss of priority if the famed X item drops that you want. You should be trying to get as good as possible as quickly as possible. Not passing on items because you would like to hope for somthing better later on.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. If you go strictly by what you're talking about there, you would never roll against a rogue or hunter for ANY item if you both had the same item to start with. You'd only get stuff when the hunters and rogues didn't want it, or when they have a pretty good piece and you have a awful piece. Either way, I think the ways we gear ourselves are wrong if we don't have a happy medium.

Let me try to say this a different way:

When I see an enhance shaman in all mail gear (I see plenty), I immediately assume they're bad... because they are. There is no way they have never come upon a possibility for leather gear somewhere.

That's why I think there should be something in the first post saying, AT LEAST, "Hey, leather gear is really good for enhancement shaman. The armor doesn't really matter for raiding
#3314SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Originally Posted by Juice View Post
Can we debate DKP and looting practices someplace else? This thread is better off discussing the bottom line impact/effectiveness of loot item X or Y, not which class should have first loot priority or if a guild should allow DKP stockpiling in the face of upgrades.
My original question dealt with itemization, and specifically what should be on the first page of this thread. I firmly believe we should say SOMETHING about leather gear vs. mail gear in the first post.
#3315SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2david0925
I think the following paragraph can be included to clear up the confusion. Feel free to use it in the front page if you want to Malan. These are really information that's being repeated. Feel free to correct me if I have any bad information as well.

Itemization -In a Nut Shell
Actively Pursue: Strength, Agility, Crit Rating, Attack Power
Do not actively pursue, but do not avoid: Hit Rating
Actively Avoid: Mp5
What does not matter: Armor Class

In terms of Tier 5 and Lower, a lot of the mail DPS pieces offered involve a substantial amount of MP5. Due to the fact that MP5 cost a large amount of item budget, the actual DPS stat that Enhancement Shaman are able to use are greatly diminished. On the other hand, Rogue itemization (abundance of agility, crit rating, and attack power) is near optimal for a Shaman in a lot of the cases. As a result, Leather should NOT be avoided because of its armor class. In a 25 man raid setting, it often matters little to an enhancement shaman as most mobs hit too hard to make Armor Class distinguished (most mob can one or two shot you regardless of armor class).

Whether you should take Leather over a Rogue or a druid is an ethical problem we're not going to cover here. However, from the pure viewpoints of stat allocation, do NOT actively avoid leather.
#3316SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Shalas
There's no reason to "activly avoid" mp5. Given two otherwise identical items, the item with more mp5 certainly isn't worse than the item with less, and in some situations will be slightly better. If itemization was perfect you'd never want to equip an item with mp5 on it, but with actual itemization it's entirly possible for an item with wasted stat points to still be the best item available for that slot.
#3317SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmatar
Errr, this is getting really nitpickey. I mean, we could discuss the merits of putting Stormstrike as hotkey '4' on the action bar vs '7' since '4' is closer to the home-row too thus maximizing both your dps and your wpm, as well.
#3318SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its fine if you disagree, that's your method in your system. But I'm not going to make a blanket statement of "never take mail" or "only take it under X Y and Z situations" because that is highly dependent upon the individual player and their guild environment.
My point isn't to say that we should say any of that. But a simple mention of the fact that leather should be considered or something to that regard. I see so many enhancement shaman that are in all leather that I'm sure just think it's what you do without regard to itemization. They use your AEP weights, maybe, but they still only consider mail armor. In fact, leather armor is almost always superior, so why not mention it. Just talk about how armor really isn't that important to us and leather is usually itemized better for us with an equivalent gear level... something to that effect.

You all agree with my point that leather is good, so why not mention it in the first post?
#3319SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2rava
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
My point isn't to say that we should say any of that. But a simple mention of the fact that leather should be considered or something to that regard. I see so many enhancement shaman that are in all leather that I'm sure just think it's what you do without regard to itemization. They use your AEP weights, maybe, but they still only consider mail armor. In fact, leather armor is almost always superior, so why not mention it. Just talk about how armor really isn't that important to us and leather is usually itemized better for us with an equivalent gear level... something to that effect.

You all agree with my point that leather is good, so why not mention it in the first post?
But, mail looks so much better, eyeballs and thunderstorms > frilly green and black. AEP weights are nice for quick comparisons but those shouldn't be your only basis on a gear upgrade. Depending on what you do in a raid(shock/totems/both) int can actually be beneficial. If you ran strictly leather gear with no int you'd be at ~6k buffed mana, keeping up stormstrike/totems every 10 seconds is an 8k mana investment every 2 mins without shocking; even if shamanistic rage does fill up your mana bar you're still sitting on E for 30 seconds. Pretty much the same thing if you're purely shocking- it's even more mana to sustain(nearly 9k).

I'll totally agree that almost any stat is better, but int is something that shouldn't be totally disregarded. New watershield will definitely alleviate some of the mana pressure, though!
#3320SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
You all agree with my point that leather is good, so why not mention it in the first post?
Leather is not inherently good. There are some pieces of leather that are good and there are some that are not good. There is nothing that says anything regarding AC at all in the first post, and it's largely up to the player whether or not they want to (or are able to) give up the AC that mail affords.

Seriously, do you think there are shamans that grasp the complexities of weapon speed and windfury interaction at a level where they actually understand it that haven't put any consideration in to using leather gear?
#3321SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2ravezero
Originally Posted by rava View Post
New watershield will definitely alleviate some of the mana pressure, though!
Factor that in with -60% mana cost (patch 2.3 talent) on shocks after a crit (which means you should be getting nearly all of your shocks discounted if you're reasonably geared) and you can afford a much smaller base mana pool, allowing you to focus on pure DPS enhancing gear like what you'd find on leather.

I'm hoping these Shammy talent changes indicates some specialized mail will be in our itemization future that sits low on mp/5 and int and focuses strongly on our more valuable AEP stats. Possibly some of the new Badge of Justice items? Cross your fingers... I'd rather be in mail, but not at the cost of DPS.
#3322SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2reverendwill
Why is a resto shaman wearing mail arguing so hard about leather to enhancement shamans? If I believe what you say then you suck as a shaman because you have no leather items. If all you really wanted was a mention in the first post that shamans shouldn't over look leather items, it shouldn't take three huge posts to make your point.

I agree with Malan, take whatever upgrade your guild allows you to get. This is not a huge deal.
#3323SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Illundai
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
Let me try to say this a different way:

When I see an enhance shaman in all mail gear (I see plenty), I immediately assume they're bad... because they are. There is no way they have never come upon a possibility for leather gear somewhere.
I'm bad because I'm in all mail gear? Wow.
#3324SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Oteb
Hmm. I think i found a glitch in Yo! sim.
It improperly applies thundering strikes to WF and StormStrikewhile this talent effects white damage only
#3325SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Stigmata
@Ilmater, Are you posting purely to try to get a rise out of people?

I suggest you head back to the wow forum and take the attitude with you.
#3326SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Oteb View Post
Hmm. I think i found a glitch in Yo! sim.
It improperly applies thundering strikes to WF and StormStrikewhile this talent effects white damage only
It's working correctly, the talent effects yellow damage as well as white, but yellow damage uses a two-roll system.
#3327SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Ahindwe
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
@Ilmater, Are you posting purely to try to get a rise out of people?

I suggest you head back to the wow forum and take the attitude with you.
Agreed. There are several very well informed, skilled and progressed players posting in this thread that wear little or no leather at all. The attitude and blanket statements based on opinion aren't really needed here.
#3328SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Roxn
Stochastics

I'm new to the forum. This is in fact my first post. I have been interested in the mathematics of melee dps for a long time but have never been able to think of a simple way to model it. As an applied math grad student my first impulse is to use stochastics.

The problem I can't get past is how to reconcile the different time scales inherent in the problem. Talents like flurry, windfury, unleashed rage etc create small time scale correlations. Most of what I've read so far appear to be central limit theorem approximations. Which are valid only for very long time scales. My intuition tells me that on most of the timescales that matter in this game such an approximation is probably not very good.

A common means of reconciling these time scales in applied math is to "match" a small time scale solution to the long time scale (central limit theorem) solution.

Has anyone considered this?
Has anyone derived a stochastic or otherwise dynamical model for enhancement shaman dps?
#3329SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Oteb View Post
Hmm. I think i found a glitch in Yo! sim.
It improperly applies thundering strikes to WF and StormStrikewhile this talent effects white damage only
This is wrong. Thundering Strikes affects ALL melee damage and was confirmed as such recently by a CM post.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai View Post
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3330SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by berg View Post
The leather/mail dispute really becomes a non factor at T6. There are a lot of random pieces and fortunately for us the rogues and hunters love their T6 sets.

Our T6 set is a little bit skanky except for the gloves which are top notch. So picking up random mail/leather is really easier than it has ever been.

Seriously though our T6 set is going to look even worse in 2.3. Who needs 40 mp5? Those points could have been like 50 agi and -350 armor or something along those lines which would have made the set amazing.
I believe the najentus gloves come out over the T6, and the only T6 piece I can see myself taking ever is shoulders. I really love how enh has more mp5 on it than elemental, and around 25 less than the resto set, in which mp5 which is resto's main stat.
#3331SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
T.K.
Retarded double post

Last edited by T.K. : 10/05/07 at 4:51 PM. Reason: double post
#3332SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
T.K.
About mail vs. leather disc:

Saying that some class should have priority over some type of item is just poor sighting of raid potential increment.

All systems used by guilds all over the world have their ups and downs, and they work fine for them. Be it DKP, loot councyl, roll or whatever, those systems have their own ways of normalizing the itens distribution over the raid. Such distribution is needed so the raid has it's power evenly distributed among all members.

Why would we want to distribute raid power among all? Basically because if you do like you say and let hunters and rogues get it first because supoosedly they get more of it than a enhance. and one of them die or whatever, you loose a damn chunck of raid power. If you let people roll at what they need, their loot system will at some point soothen the raid power along all members such if one or two die you still have the power to continue encounters. What good would be, for example, to give all loot to a warrior tank if you use a paladin tank at some point and he's not geared to handle it? What good for would be a hunter that had pref at all mail gear and for some reason died at a encounter?

loosing a good chunk of raid power with just one death is bad at my eyes and so i'd try to avoid it at any time. Here what i really think people is trying, is to show people what would they look after, and than everyone can make their own decisions, not just point out loud: "YOU SHOULD TAKE THIS OVER THIS!!!"


About the group setup and second enhance...

My raid uses 2 enhance shammies most of the time. We currently at 20% Kael (when healers amazingly let our tank die without any heals in more than 20 secs O.o).
Our groups comp. are almost all the time:

G1
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue/Drood
DPS warr
Enhance. Shammy

G2 (Wich i'm aways at)
Hunter Mark
Hunter BM
Enhance. Shammy (Me)
Spriest
Drood

We're really having some nice results with this, as my dps is almosy aways higher than other shammy and our hunters just rape things with this much mana support such.
i know this is not perfect buffing setup, but it's been working fine for us and i think we'll be using that for hyjal/BT anyway.

Here's my Armory if anyone interested...

The Armory

Oh...btw, KAEL DOWN!!!!! YEAH BABE!!

Last edited by T.K. : 10/05/07 at 4:53 PM. Reason: Can't stop "U"!!!
#3333SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Sebudai
Personally I try to stick with mail items and let the rogues get their leather first, even if some of the leather items are clearly better than the mail ones for me. Once the zone is on farm and the rogues have all picked up what they need, I'll go ahead and start sending on the good leather items. Our loot system promotes sending on small upgrades like this.

I definitely plan on eventually looting Midnight Chestguard, Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Insidious Bands, Shadowmaster's Boots and Don Alejandro's Money Belt. Cursed Vision and Midnight Chestguard are pretty ridiculous items, actually. They're way better than the mail equivalents. My math has Cursed Vision a full 80 AEP better than the next best helm. =P
#3334SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Denrye
Weapon Choices

First, this may be in pages 5-95 of this thread, and if so I apologize.

But when I look at the end game weapon choices listed, and the combinations that are recommended, I noticed several of the advised combinations use OH weapons that are faster than the MH weapons. This seems to me to be something which, although it may allow you to actually equip better weapons, would ultimately be detrimental to overall dps.
#3335SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2rava
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Personally I try to stick with mail items and let the rogues get their leather first, even if some of the leather items are clearly better than the mail ones for me. Once the zone is on farm and the rogues have all picked up what they need, I'll go ahead and start sending on the good leather items. Our loot system promotes sending on small upgrades like this.

I definitely plan on eventually looting Midnight Chestguard, Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Insidious Bands, Shadowmaster's Boots and Don Alejandro's Money Belt. Cursed Vision and Midnight Chestguard are pretty ridiculous items, actually. They're way better than the mail equivalents. My math has Cursed Vision a full 80 AEP better than the next best helm. =P
You should never let Grim take loot over you. Also, reroll alliance, because the gnome goggles are by far the best helm in existence.
#3336SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2PSGarak
Roxn, I think Stochastics is an unecessarily heavy hammer to hit the problem with. Most of the problems reduce algebraicly without too much work. Of course, I dislike probability in the first place so I'm probably biased.
If I understand you right, an example of your primary concern is how to model flurry and windfury since flurry affects windfury cooldowns (in number of swings) and windfury affects flurry proc rate? I think modeling that as an iterative or dynamic process is unnecessary. While I haven't done the work it seems like the relation could be disentangled into a closed-form solution with simple algebra, for flurry uptime (in percent of swings) and effective windfury proc rate.
#3337SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
Brachamul
Flametongue

Hi,

I'd like to make a comment regarding Flametongue Weapon with patch 2.3.

Back in the days before BC I played elemental, and I figured that 10% of my spell power went straight into my Flametongue Weapon's damage. This happened regardless of weapon speed, meaning a very fast weapon was clearly favorable.

If things haven't changed, and with the +15% damage to flametongue talent, this is how much damage a Shaman would deal with a 1.4 speed weapon if he had 0 spell damage but 2500ap converted into spell damage.

Base Flametongue damage on 1.4 weapon (Offhand) :

Base = 50 damage per hit
Spell Power through AP = 750
Damage per Hit = (75+50)*1.15 = 125 = 145
Damage per Second = 100

DPS is increased by Flurry obviously.

(I realise these numbers are quite rough, but they are mainly here to give you an idea.)

Do you think that Flametongue will maybe beat Windfury under certain conditions after 2.3 for an Offhand weapon?

EDIT: In fact, in raid situation, the boss will generally be affected by the fire mage +15% fire damage, and the Curse of Elements, +10% fire damage, so the added DPS will go up to around 126 damage / sec.

Last edited by Brachamul : 10/05/07 at 7:49 AM.
#3338SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2rava
Originally Posted by Brachamul View Post
Hi,

I'd like to make a comment regarding Flametongue Weapon with patch 2.3.

Back in the days before BC I played elemental, and I figured that 10% of my spell power went straight into my Flametongue Weapon's damage. This happened regardless of weapon speed, meaning a very fast weapon was clearly favorable.

If things haven't changed, and with the +15% damage to flametongue talent, this is how much damage a Shaman would deal with a 1.4 speed weapon if he had 0 spell damage but 2500ap converted into spell damage.

Base Flametongue damage on 1.4 weapon (Offhand) :

Base = 50 damage per hit
Spell Power through AP = 750
Damage per Hit = (75+50)*1.15 = 125 = 145
Damage per Second = 100

DPS is increased by Flurry obviously.

(I realise these numbers are quite rough, but they are mainly here to give you an idea.)

Do you think that Flametongue will maybe beat Windfury under certain conditions after 2.3 for an Offhand weapon?
Interesting revelation. It's a shame that this isn't discussed in the first post under a bolded heading "FlameTongue Weapon in 2.3" with specific links to posts regarding the matter.
#3339SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Oteb
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
It's working correctly, the talent effects yellow damage as well as white, but yellow damage uses a two-roll system.
Could you elaborate a little? I know there are different systems for determining hits for white and yellow damage. But I dont think i understand why swstats always shows my white crit % to be 4-5% higher than my yellow crit%. Is it because it calculates crit% out of connected swings and its ends up higher since i miss more with white than yellow making same number of crit% end up being higher % total? And would/should the be exactly the same at hit cap?
#3340SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mulgero
Back shortly to leather vs. mail discussion I think this is a bit eternal discussion as rogues don't want enhance to roll "their" loot and hunter propably either. It really won't work well if you wait gearing up yourself letting rogues and hunters get loot first cause they might do marginally more damage with the pieces than you.

Mage A does more damage than mage B, should B let mage A have all loot first cause he can pump out more damage due being maybe little more skilled with stop macros or just happens to have less lag? Answer is no.

Everyone in raid need to gear up not just guy or 2 by taking best gear availlable (common sense should be of course used). I'd love to use mail only but more or less leather just seems to be best option no matter of what instance we talk.

With kara and gruul gear I have about 6k mana raid buffed and I don't see how much another 2k mana would be more beneficial than adding those points along mp/5 to str/ap/crit... As long as you can keep totems up and run mana based skills/spells will not do more damage than melee/wf.

I like the idea in 2.3 changes for enhance that casting might have bigger role in enhance shamans skill usage and dps but still it won't make int or mp/5 preferred or even wanted stats on enhance gear.
#3341SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2crimsonsentinel
Don't know if this is for raiding shaman only so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, but here goes:

If I'm leveling a shaman (basically crap gear, low crit/hit rates, low AP, although I can probably buy decent blue weapons), is it still worth it to use windfury on both hands (or a 2 hander before level 40) with slow weapons or will it be better to use flametongue? All the posts I've seen are based of normal level 70 raiding stats so I don't really know how to compare.
#3342SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Stigmata
Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel View Post
Don't know if this is for raiding shaman only so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, but here goes:

If I'm leveling a shaman (basically crap gear, low crit/hit rates, low AP, although I can probably buy decent blue weapons), is it still worth it to use windfury on both hands (or a 2 hander before level 40) with slow weapons or will it be better to use flametongue? All the posts I've seen are based of normal level 70 raiding stats so I don't really know how to compare.
I dont think it really matters since you will replace everything every few levels.
#3343SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
Jerem
Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel View Post
Don't know if this is for raiding shaman only so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, but here goes:

If I'm leveling a shaman (basically crap gear, low crit/hit rates, low AP, although I can probably buy decent blue weapons), is it still worth it to use windfury on both hands (or a 2 hander before level 40) with slow weapons or will it be better to use flametongue? All the posts I've seen are based of normal level 70 raiding stats so I don't really know how to compare.
I created a shaman after reading this thread, and I levelled it trying to stick as much as possible to what is explained here.
During your levelling, FT on fast weapons might be more efficient, but I just saw my 0-70 levelling as an opportunity to start getting familiar with what my gameplay would be at 70, and to put some "theories" into application (you never really KNOW that slow/slow is better for WF until you see it, I guess).
Using WF on slow/slow, waiting for a WF proc before using Stormstrike, selecting my gear (whether it was quest rewards or greens from the AH) following the logic described here might not have been the fastest or easiest way to level up, but it certainly gave me automatisms I still use when I'm raiding or running Heroics with my Shaman.

EDIT : and to answer the question better, I was spending about 20G every 3 or 4 levels on a blue BoE mace when I could. I could afford it easily, and good speed and stats weapons are rare, so I just took any upgrade I could. But, as Stigmata said, you do replace them every few levels.

Last edited by Jerem : 10/05/07 at 8:49 AM.
#3344SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Shabadu
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
I definitely plan on eventually looting Midnight Chestguard, Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Insidious Bands, Shadowmaster's Boots and Don Alejandro's Money Belt. Cursed Vision and Midnight Chestguard are pretty ridiculous items, actually. They're way better than the mail equivalents. My math has Cursed Vision a full 80 AEP better than the next best helm. =P
I just looted the helm and chest this week, with both of our rogues having all of them already. Pretty huge upgrade from the mail chest from Arch and the T6 helm. Those are likely to be my only leather pieces aside from Mantle of Darkness, which I plan on replacing with the Akama shoulders.
#3345SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2siaheed
With everyone asking about the FT proc being better or not every couple days does anyone have a simulator that has FT imbue as an option? I know Yo's doesn't and that seems to be what everyone is treating as gospel. I think its only fair if FT damage was properly added to this simulator or any other simulators not mentioned in the first post where your getting all this parse info from about windfury.

I think that if FT is properly represented in a simulator in its current state you'll find that it may exceed WF in some gear setups/ raids and that Wf/Wf will be better for solo/group, unless your trying to hit a banshee in Hyjal =/
#3346SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2dedy
Hi all this is my first post i hope this question doesnt interfere in the topic.
I have played few months with 2 fel edged axes

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fel Edged Battleaxe

But this week i have obtained, 2 new weapons and now i dont know what to do:
here you got both combinations

MH Fool's Bane + OH merciless gladiator cleaver
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fool's Bane
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver

or

MH merciless gladiator cleaver + OH fel edged axes

Friends tell me second option is better because merciless in off hand lost lot of damage but i dont know if the first option makes up for this lost of damage

What do you think first option or second?
#3347SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2berg
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
I just looted the helm and chest this week, with both of our rogues having all of them already. Pretty huge upgrade from the mail chest from Arch and the T6 helm. Those are likely to be my only leather pieces aside from Mantle of Darkness, which I plan on replacing with the Akama shoulders.
Thats a good week for sure. Sadly we have not gotten any of the chests and we are all starting to hit exalted. And yes like mentioned above the illidan helm is so far ahead of every other helm, it is not even close.
#3348SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Pitbuller
Dear dedy. First read first post then you will notice that there is some simulator(easy to use) and you can do all hard work for yourself.
#3349SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
♦ Nite_Moogle
ATTENTION EVERY PERSON SAYING THAT FLAMETONGUE WILL BE AWESOME.

Flametongue gets 10% of your spell damage as +dmg. That means once 2.3 is introduced that you will have 3% of your AP as +damage for Flametongue (.1*.3*AP).

Three percent.

Assuming that you somehow manage to get the best fast dagger in the game ( Messenger of Fate - Items - World of Warcraft ), its 1.4 speed means you're going to do 65/2 = 33 (we'll be generous) damage per hit with it before +dmg. If you have 3000 AP, it'll get 90 additional damage per hit for a total whopping per-hit damage of 122, or 87 DPS. Even assuming a full Scorch stack and Curse of Elements, it tops out at 110 DPS. A laughably low crit rate means you might get 120 DPS out of it if you're lucky.

OR.

You could get Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft [earlier in the zone no less]-- with 3000 AP, a single extra Windfury proc on the offhand is worth around 520 damage on each hit assuming no crits, meaning at least 1000 damage per proc. If you've got a 30% crit rate, it's worth an average of 1352. Without a single debuff on the mob and assuming it's got 7700 armor for ~43% mitigation (the high average among raid mobs as reported by this thread), you're still looking at 770 per proc. Debuffing the NPC with a full sunder stack and faerie fire drops the mob to ~4400 AC and ~30% mitigation, your average offhand WF proc is still worth 946 per hit. This means you'd need an average of 7.8 FT hits to make up for a single offhand WF proc -- an actual proc rate of 13% is all that is needed for Windfury to equal Flametongue's best circumstances.

This is to say nothing of the fact that even as a Draeni you're going to get a 12% resist rate on Flametongue against Boss NPCs without gearing for spell hit whereas you can eliminate any WF misses completely through talents alone, leaving only dodges to contend with (this is assuming you went resto for the rest of your points for 3% hit/spellhit -- ironically putting points in the elemental tree makes Flametongue's damage worse since you lose 3% spell hit). Additionally, Flametongue will not proc Flurry nor Shamanistic Rage and using a fast weapon lowers your Stormstrike damage since it is not a normalizied attack. Further still, FT makes no use of Leader of the Pack, Blood Frenzy, or -Armor items or further debuffs on the NPC.

Haste will affect FT in a more positive manner than WF because of the cooldown, but not by a significant amount. You would need an unreasonably large amount of passive haste to close the gap between the two imbues.

Flametongue will not be worth using in raids for Enhancement shamans until they change the way it scales.

Edit: I screwed up and used the FT main hand damage value initially. It's actually much worse.

Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 10/05/07 at 11:41 AM.
#3350SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2berg
Also moogle having FT on offhand takes mh wf back down to ~20% instead of the roughly 35% it is with dw wf.

All things considered this will still give us huge benefits to searing totem, healing stream and our shocks so it is a fabulous change for us but flame tongue will not be viable unless it is completely revamped.
#2026SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Is it alright to ask gear questions in this thread? It's possibly the best place to ask since you will all know better than anywhere else, but I think it's just for theorycrafting the mechanics and such?

Anyway this is my dilemma.. our guild has 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK down, and all the new gear options I am having open to me are an increase in AP and Crit, but less or no +hit at all. My current stats are as follows: AP:1478, Hit Rating: 155, Crit: 29.56%.
I picked up Boots of Effortless Striking, which gives me an increase of +8 AP, and 0.34% crit, but I completely lose out on 1.08% Hit rating from my Fiend Slayer Boots.

What's the best to use? There's a few things like this where I gain a small amount of AP and Crit, but lose a lot of hit, basically how much hit can I drop and when does the added AP/Crit outweigh the loss of hit?

Another example of this would be Ancestral Ring of Conquest, replacing my Violet Signet I will gain +8 AP and 0.84% crit, but a loss of 1.00% Hit, I really hope someone can help me out here..thank you.
Ditch the +hit. It is worth 1.4 AEP per point, and it is worth more in item budget than it is worth to us.
#2027SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Strawberry
Ah ha,

ran the test in the blasted lands -

It went Reflex blades>2.6 speed green>Malchazeen>2.6 Lvl 11 grey hatchet...

The 2.6 speed Lvl11 grey hatchet was behind malchazeen by about 50DPS; alot less than you'd think, looking at the stats, especially when you factor in the Attack power and the little bit of hit Malchazeen should give you.

So Fast weapons = suck

You were absolutely right Malan - if this was a bet you'd have won

Thanks

Last edited by Strawberry : 08/31/07 at 1:18 PM.
#2028SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Its a sad sad reality that we live in.
#2029SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
I think a good addition to the OP would be ring enchant info regarding enhancement; I know for rogues and hunters +4 stats tops +2 weapon damage, after a good half hour of searching I'm still wondering the best one.
#2030SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I'm not an enchanter so I've little personal insight into that, although my hunch would be +4 stats as well.
#2031SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
If +4 Stats is better for Rogues who get comparatively little benefit from the INT and STR and have a faster attack speed to take better advantage of the +2 Weapon Damage, then +4 Stats will be better for Shamans as well.
#2032SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
If +4 Stats is better for Rogues who get comparatively little benefit from the INT and STR and have a faster attack speed to take better advantage of the +2 Weapon Damage, then +4 Stats will be better for Shamans as well.
That was my initial conclusion, but I wanted to avoid making that assumption right off the bat. I was also hoping to find a conversion of +2 damage into ap, but I'm still searching.
#2033SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3s315h1n
On the topic of enchants, how about cloak enchants? 12 Agility or 2% threat reduction? ;]
#2034SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
I was also hoping to find a conversion of +2 damage into ap, but I'm still searching.
It's weapon speed dependent, so it's not a straight conversion.

+weapon damage amount / weapon speed = equivalent DPS
2/2.6 = .75
equivalent DPS * 14 = equivalent AP
10.5 AP

With BoK and UR, 4 stats is a little over 9 AP so the difference is very minimal in terms of raw AP, but there's also benefit from the other stats (namely some crit) that makes +stats a better ring enchant.

Originally Posted by s315h1n View Post
On the topic of enchants, how about cloak enchants? 12 Agility or 2% threat reduction? ;]
Are you threat capped? Get threat reduction. If you aren't, get Agility.
#2035SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hadera
Originally Posted by s315h1n View Post
On the topic of enchants, how about cloak enchants? 12 Agility or 2% threat reduction? ;]
I think it depends on your aggro situation. If you're having to sit back on fights so that you won't pull aggro, go for the -2% threat. Malan said in a prior post concerning threat reducing trinkets that a trinket slot is essentially empty if you're having to 'throttle back'. I would think that the same principle applies here.
#2036SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Here's something to ponder: is 1% haste a better glove enchant that +15 STR?

2.2 Haste Rating = 2.2 STR

15.8 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
#2037SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Here's something to ponder: is 1% haste a better glove enchant that +15 STR?

2.2 Haste Rating = 2.2 STR

15.8 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Enchant Gloves - Minor Haste
It is a very misleading tooltip: it adds enough rating to have been 1% at 60, so it adds 10 haste rating. It's not a percent scalar like Mongoose is.
#2038SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Malan
Itemization - Hit Rating
Current theory is holding that we may not need anywhere near the hit cap like we previously thought. A good explanation of why can be found here. Effectively, because we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 45%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence.
You guys sure do put a lot of thought into this stuff, way more than I ever will. But, I have to say, I've tried running with pure STR/Crit/AGI gear over a heavy hit rating suit and I have not been impressed with the results. Berg postulates that hit rating only effects White damage, and Windfury damage to lesser degree. But, you also can't crit if you miss. As I recall, against targets 3 levels higher than the player, the base chance to miss while Dual Wielding is roughly 24.5%. And correct me if I'm wrong there, it's been a while since I had this all explained to me. given 5% chance to miss, that could potentially reduce damage dealt that was derived from UR and Flurry procs, in addition to missed Windfury procs and crits. Granted, you would have more chance to crit, and do more damage per hit, but unless you can get more crit % increase than you lose in hit % increase, I dont think it would be worth the change.
#2039SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Sebudai
Well, if you'd like months of actual results instead of theorycraft you're welcome to review my guilds WWS parses. I have possibly the lowest total hit rating of any of the endgame shaman. Also, I don't think anyone is saying to ignore hit rating. You definitely want some. The higher your other stats get, the more important hit rating becomes by comparison.

Strength is the most efficient stat for us, but that doesn't mean it's the only stat we want to focus on. The stat weightings do not tell us to focus entirely on strength. I like to think of it in pie-chart terms. The stat weightings tell us that 40% of our pie should consist of strength, 35% crit rating/agility, and 25% hit rating/haste rating, if that makes sense.

Last edited by Sebudai : 08/31/07 at 6:34 PM.
#2040SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Originally Posted by Abrax View Post
But, you also can't crit if you miss.
Assuming you have 9% hit from talents, adding hit rating on your gear will never, ever, EVER* cause you to gain a crit you would not have previously had. I stopped reading after this point, because the rest of your analysis was based on this idea and it's wrong.




* Assuming you are not crit-capped, which nobody is, because Glancing Blows are now only 25% of the hit table, you would have to have something like 60% critical strike chance.
#3476SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Shamrokk View Post
"Just make sure you don't use max rank Windfury Totem or there's no way to sustain it."



I have always used max rank totems with twisting wf/goa or wf/ta depending on which of our tanks are there and use my earth shock/ flame shock macro the whole time and have no mana issues at all.
I'm curious how this all works out. Can you put up some wws parses please? It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I want to figure out how I can do the same.

Thanks much.
#3477SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
I don't think your value for Stormstrike mana cost is correct. Is 8% of our base mana really 560 mana? I know I'm always able to stormstrike before I am able to drop another totem, if I've gone dry to that point.
#3478SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
I don't think your value for Stormstrike mana cost is correct. Is 8% of our base mana really 560 mana? I know I'm always able to stormstrike before I am able to drop another totem, if I've gone dry to that point.
^, 221 with mental quickness for SS. 234? without.
#3479SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
I don't think your value for Stormstrike mana cost is correct. Is 8% of our base mana really 560 mana? I know I'm always able to stormstrike before I am able to drop another totem, if I've gone dry to that point.
You are absolutely correct. I'm not used to considering +int on gear, which I should have. He has +156 int, which is 3700 mana. Stormstrike should only cost (7000 - 3700) * 0.08 = 264! That's 248 mana after Mental Quickness.

That takes the SS mana / 2min to 2980 mana, and the overall mana per 2 min to 8235 before using any shocks, 14073 using one every 10 sec.

Thanks much for the error catch.
#3480SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by fangar View Post
Twisting to me is about helping the party that much more given our role. So downranking just wouldn't feel appropriate to me at least.
In argument for downranking WF Totem: The benefit gained from the extra hit is far greater than the additional attack power on that extra hit. If the downranking lets you sustain the twisting longer, or get more shocks in, I think that the downranked totem would come out on top. I don't have the math to back that up, but the AP bonus gained remains constant, and as gear scales, the important thing becomes the extra hit.
#3481SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Rapparee
I swear my stormstrike is in the 200s for mana consumption.

That drops your two minute values to 14k-ish mana spent.

On trash, I spend a lot of time running, chasing ghouls, chasing dogs, standing in damn ice from shoulder-winking orcs as they saunter off, so that saves some mana.

For bosses (kaz'rogal not included, and i've not faced anyone past teron/gurtogg yet), I find that due to random heals, silences, aoe and so on, that I rarely get to fully utilize stormstrike and earth shock. I never get to cast flame shock on a boss.

So while I agree that your cycle sounds incredibly harsh for two minutes. It's not really something I get to experience in full force for 2 minutes at a time. There is always some time spent running for me at least.
On Teron and Akama, I do have to chug supermana potions as soon as cooldown is up, since I do in fact just stand in place for the most part. On most other bosses, I drink supermana every so often. In a normal night of 4.5 hours raiding, I drink between 4 and 10.

That said, I'm one of those drop max WF, GoA, SS.... randomly throw in an ES. And I don't have mana problems with my lackluster gear.

Once 2.3 hits and I start forcing ES full time, maybe i'll remember your clever trick of less than max WF totem. I look forward to being mana limited.

Last edited by Rapparee : 10/09/07 at 4:15 PM.
#3482SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Unaz
I've been gradually starting to twist more on certain fights where there's not a lot of movement, but typically I will do it until I am about 30% mana, and then will stop twisting and jsut keep up WF. And only ss/shocking from there until I have my mana back.

Of course, if I really need to start cranking it out, I could start chugging mana pots like other caster classes. I think most enhancement shamans now are sliding in to the comfortable zone of not having to use super pots much at all, or only in emergencies (after a res/mana drain). I know I can usually get by with just the cheap combat pots for the most part, although I have supers as well jsut in case.


Also, max rank talented windfury totem is 457 (502 with UR?) more AP then untalented rank 1 Windfury totem. Which isn't exactly a difference to ignore over the duration of a fight.

Last edited by Unaz : 10/09/07 at 4:17 PM.
#3483SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
You are absolutely correct. I'm not used to considering +int on gear, which I should have. He has +156 int, which is 3700 mana. Stormstrike should only cost (7000 - 3700) * 0.08 = 264! That's 248 mana after Mental Quickness.

That takes the SS mana / 2min to 2980 mana, and the overall mana per 2 min to 8235 before using any shocks, 14073 using one every 10 sec.

Thanks much for the error catch.
I looked into it a bit more and the values are lower. You subtract the base int as well from your unbuffed int(took off all of my gear with int to find #), so with 4529 mana and 109 paper doll int it looks like:

4529-(109*15)=2894, 2894*.08=231.52 for SS mana cost, 231.52/1.06=218.4 for SS mana cost with Mental Quickness. These values are like 2 off of the total which I guess has to do with exact #s somewhere, but going off of listed SS cost and backwards math that's about as close as I can get to the 221 it costs me to SS.
#3484SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Hey, thanks a bunch rava. I don't usually do much with spell casting and mana. Obviously it shows :-\ I appreciate the explanation.
#3485SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamrokk
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
I'm curious how this all works out. Can you put up some wws parses please? It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I want to figure out how I can do the same.

Thanks much.
here are a couple wws on Anetheron both of these are with out our ret pally in raid so JoW wasn't up I think a lot of the mana stuff depends on your buffed ap with UR up. I always save my trinket for when i pop sr as most do I am sure. I am usually around 3.2-3.4k ap when SR is up. On the second parse I actually used flame shock more then earth shock, I think I was on the wrong bar and wasnt useing my shock macro. I also dont use the one button for twisting ss and shocks since depending on threat i may switch from twisting wf/goa to wf/ta mid fight so i have a seperate macro for each of those and then use /castsequence reset=12 Flame Shock, Earth Shock for shocks and don't have ss macro'd to anything.

Anetheron
Loading...
Shamshokk - WWS

High Warlord Naj'entus
Shamshokk - WWS
#3486SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamrokk
Here is a wws for Gorefiend kill after posting the previous ones there are some down times in those due to being slept on Anetheron and not needing to drop totems or shock during Naj shield. Gorefiend and Akama are the only 2 fights I can think of atm that we have completed (Hyjal cleared working on council) that you can stand there and dps 100% of the time as long as you dont get the debuff on gorefiend and well akama is less then a min if you have a mana issue there you need to reroll. All the other fights seem to have downtime in them or you are in resist gear


Shamshokk - WWS
#3487SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Yeah that WWS parse of Gorefiend is a real good example of just how much JoW shines. It seems that on most fights where we need it our paladins remember to keep JoL up but never JoW.
#3488SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
I had an encounter related question here, how do other Shamans experience Kaz'Rogal? I hate him with a passion and I just don't seem to be able to find a way to do better DPS on him. One time I'll go OOM, the other time I'll be spammed with Cripples.

Do others use full Shadow Res on him or? Does it help to resist Cripple? And does Living Action Potion maybe remove Cripple?

I've tried both approaches and I really am not too sure what the best one is. As far as Marks go, on the first one I use a mana pot, second one I get I use SR... And hopefully by the time I'll need it my SMP cd will be gone, shortly followed by a SR. That' doesnt always happen, though :p. Sometimes I just have to back away and stand there exploding, which obviously doesn't help my DPS...

Any tips or experiences?

Some parses:

Khaelyn - WWS
I went OOM on this one, didn't resist a lot of Marks.. That was with ~200 SR.

Khaelyn - WWS
Didn't go OOM, wore almost full SR. Resisted all but one Mark.

I just feel that I can do more DPS on a fight like that, that's why I'm trying to find out some tricks perhaps.
#3489SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
I dont use any shadow res, I have cow range to avoid war stomps, and i rarely get crippled.

I usually shock sparingly for the first minute or so then once i pop SR spam shocks and totem twist until its dead.

I have never blown up on this fight, and only once when I wasnt paying attention did I even get close to being low enough for the next mark to have a negative impact on my play.
#3490SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
I stopped using any SR on that fight once our paladins started using JoW. Make sure you refresh Water Shield, because he activates it quite often. Your fate is sort of in the hands of the rest of the raid on this encounter. The best way to not run out of mana is to kill him really fast. =P
#3491SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Illundai
Do you have any WWS from your kills ? Cause I don't think we take extraordinarily long to kill it, but I still go OOM :P.

The water shield tip was nice btw, can't believe I didn't think of that... And I'm guessing it will only get better next patch :P.

Last edited by Illundai : 10/09/07 at 5:58 PM.
#3492SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Encouraging your feral druids to give you their innervates helps on that fight, too, if you're getting unlucky with marks!
#3493SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Yah I seem to recall Stigmata getting 2 innervates on a fight and not knowing that he had.

Illundai you don't keep water shield up all the time anyways? It triggers constantly, almost every AoE effect (even ones that don't do damage) proc it.
#3494SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
I dont use any shadow res, I have cow range to avoid war stomps, and i rarely get crippled.

I usually shock sparingly for the first minute or so then once i pop SR spam shocks and totem twist until its dead.

I have never blown up on this fight, and only once when I wasnt paying attention did I even get close to being low enough for the next mark to have a negative impact on my play.
I use only my BT neck but my experience is identical otherwise. I usually don't bother twisting, but I do kick up whatever dps cycle is appropriate if I'm safe on mana. Going to try it without any SR at all this week.

Most recent parse using only BT neck for SR. Shabadu - WWS
#3495SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Do you have any WWS from your kills ? Cause I don't think we take extraordinarily long to kill it, but I still go OOM :P.

The water shield tip was nice btw, can't believe I didn't think of that... And I'm guessing it will only get better next patch :P.
WWS
WWS
WWS

I think these are the only ones I have when I'm not wearing SR. I used to use SR, but I slowly started taking more and more pieces off each week until I eventually wasn't wearing any.

When you guys engage him are you dragging him all over the place to get all the NPC's involved before you start actually DPS'ing?
#3496SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
For reasons I'm not aware of, we don't bother with the Taurens. Bit silly I guess, but I doubt we'll be changing strategies at this point.

And I do try to keep up Water Shield, but often I don't really have it 100% up... More like 50% of the time. I only recently switched to Enhancement so I'm still getting used to it =/
#3497SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Shamrokk View Post
here are a couple wws on Anetheron both of these are with out our ret pally in raid so JoW wasn't up I think a lot of the mana stuff depends on your buffed ap with UR up. I always save my trinket for when i pop sr as most do I am sure. I am usually around 3.2-3.4k ap when SR is up. On the second parse I actually used flame shock more then earth shock, I think I was on the wrong bar and wasnt useing my shock macro. I also dont use the one button for twisting ss and shocks since depending on threat i may switch from twisting wf/goa to wf/ta mid fight so i have a seperate macro for each of those and then use /castsequence reset=12 Flame Shock, Earth Shock for shocks and don't have ss macro'd to anything.

Anetheron
Loading...
Shamshokk - WWS

High Warlord Naj'entus
Shamshokk - WWS
Thanks so much for the posts, as they help me figure out what's different between my playing and other people's.

First off, I was in the tank group, so no battleshout for me. That of course affects my SR returns.

The other thing is the twisting uptime. What I mean is - for every 10 seconds of combat, in an ideal situation, there should be one WF and one GoA totem. Here's a parse from last night of me on Morogrim:

Anga - WWS
(and yes, if you look at the other stuff, we had an abysmal time with vashj for some reason last night, pls ignore :p I'm using the anonymous parse to protect the innocent ).

The fight lasted 6min and 58 seconds = 418 seconds, so that would require 42 totem twists. You can see from the parse I had 100% uptime with 43 twists.

I'll thank my shamelessly plugged addon for making this possible I also had 3 fire nova totems in addition to a few flame shocks and the usual fire elemental and heroism mana soaks.

In the parses listed, you had:

Shamshokk - WWS
19 twists out of 262 seconds = 73% uptime

Shamshokk - WWS
22 twists out of 272 seconds = 81% uptime

Shamshokk - WWS
13 twists out of 260 seconds = 50% uptime

I'm not saying this is necessarily bad (I've never even done those fights, so I don't know what's appropriate), just that one of the reasons some people might not experience the same mana starvation I was having. You spent a higher % of your mana on more shocking (again, not saying it's wrong, just pointing out a difference), whereas I spent mine on twisting, and qq'ing about not having battle shout!

----------------------

Edit, for fun:
Anga - WWS
That's all the trash packs for the night.
255 twists out of 2580 seconds = 98.8% uptime.
I'm a twisting fiend. But, if I want to go on raids, I have to service the tank group, and with a druid and warrior tank, there's really no alternative but to twist to keep them both happy.

Last edited by Disquette : 10/09/07 at 7:40 PM.
#3498SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamrokk
Yea I looked back to try to find a tidewalker fight been a while since we were in SSC the only one I could find isone from before i started twisting but you can see the power of having our ret pally in raid and being in the melee group in the amount of mana i get throughout an 8 min fight to allow me to twist and shock with

Shamshokk - WWS
#3499SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
For reasons I'm not aware of, we don't bother with the Taurens. Bit silly I guess, but I doubt we'll be changing strategies at this point.

And I do try to keep up Water Shield, but often I don't really have it 100% up... More like 50% of the time. I only recently switched to Enhancement so I'm still getting used to it =/
I was pretty bad about it too, had a friend make a script for me that I use with a water shield macro:

/cast water shield
/run local f = CreateFrame"Frame" f:RegisterEvent"CHAT_MSG_SPELL_AURA_GONE_SELF" f:SetScript("OnEvent", function(_,_,m) if m:match("Water Shield") then UIErrorsFrame:AddMessage("RECAST WATERSHIELD") end end)

It displays in the mid top of the screen and has been quite some help with all of the garbage I have to pay attention to in a raid.
#3500SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Xoya
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
When you guys engage him are you dragging him all over the place to get all the NPC's involved before you start actually DPS'ing?
In particular, our guild has the tank standing in the middle who then gets MD'd to. Over the next one to two minutes he drags Kaz'rogal up to the taurens warriors, then across to Thrall. I'd say that between warstomps and cripples, melee lose a fair amount of damage during this time, but maybe this is made up for by getting the tauren warriors and Thrall involved.

Last edited by Xoya : 10/09/07 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Grammar
#3576SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Ah yes, Glancing Blows, 6.25 Adjusted Attacktable factor (100-28+20-5-6.25+40)/100 = 1.202

This explains the missing 0.06.

0.71*1.5*1.202*1.254*1.1*(2500*1.1/14+100) = 523 DPS

Still missing 30 dps somewhere.
#3577SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
• Krish
There are two important questions that I'd like to ask:

1) Yo, the way your simulator is currently set up, I am getting a measly 47 DPS from Flameshock/Earthshock with CoE, Scorch, and Misery selected, and the 30% AP -> spell damage deselected (if I select it, I'm only getting 87 DPS). This seems very low to me, and so I was wondering if the default values for boss resistances are incorrect at 365. Am I simply overestimating how much DPS shocks should contribute? I'm using 5.4% spell crit and 3% spell hit. Normally, since there is nothing you can really do to change how much DPS the proper shock rotation does, I'm not too worried. I am, however, using a second pawn string to show me the AEP values of items after the 2.3 change, so that I can make good long-term decisions now. The accuracy of shock damage values essentially affects the relative weight of AP and Strength, and determines by how much the value of the other stats decreases.

2) There has been some discussion of the benefits of waiting until you're outside the 3 second internal WF cooldown to Storm Strike. I have yet to find any good math that would help me determine just how long it might be worth waiting. I also have the Ashtongue Talisman, which would seem to complicate this some. Disquette, I'm loving DisqoDice for this, but would just love to know how to use this information to its fullest. I was thinking that Yo's simulator could probably help us arrive at some good math if it were changed to allow the simulator to optimize a "maximum time to wait for SS" kind of output.

Last edited by Krish : 10/11/07 at 4:51 PM.
#3578SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Disquette
Krish, I know what you mean. Pretty much If I have 1/2 a red bar or less, I'm waiting for it. Half a red bar or more, I SS anyway. It's largely dependent on global cooldowns also, though.

If I have 2/3 of a red bar when WF is expiring, I'm redropping the totem, and the global CD takes me most of the way through the red bar anyway.
#3579SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Slothrop
Basic totem-twisting build?

Originally Posted by drats View Post
@panny: I noticed you don't have the last point in mental quickness and any points in totemic focus. Without these, a totem twisting & shocking rotation is pretty much impossible (check out disquette's spreadsheet a few pages back). I'd suggest dropping imp lightning sheild, imp GW, and ancestral healing for the mana reduction talents. With a spell crit rate that low, ancestral healing is a waste of points anyways.

PS. Make sure you have JoW/BoW if you have the pallies for it. It makes mana management much easier.
I know the OP asked not to discuss builds, I've gone through the entire OP and searched various threads and could not find a Shaman builds discussion. While I would be interested in finding different builds (such as 0/42/19, 0/44/17, etc.) contrasted, I have some specific questions about enhancement builds not answered in the OP.

This note from drats implies that even the last point is needed in mental quickness in order to totem twist and rotate shocks. But the typical builds I have seen for enhancement (e.g. 0/42/19: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator) do not assign any points at all to mental quickness.

What would be considered a basic, no-frills build for totem-twisting enhancement shamans?
#3580SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
Depending on your mana constraints, the main thing you're going to want is 5 points in Totemic Focus, which drops the mana cost of the totems much more than MQ does. With the 2.3 notes out in the wild, there will probably be a fair amount of discussion about what what the new 'staple' build is.
#3581SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Slothrop View Post
I know the OP asked not to discuss builds, I've gone through the entire OP and searched various threads and could not find a Shaman builds discussion. While I would be interested in finding different builds (such as 0/42/19, 0/44/17, etc.) contrasted, I have some specific questions about enhancement builds not answered in the OP.

This note from drats implies that even the last point is needed in mental quickness in order to totem twist and rotate shocks. But the typical builds I have seen for enhancement (e.g. 0/42/19: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator) do not assign any points at all to mental quickness.

What would be considered a basic, no-frills build for totem-twisting enhancement shamans?
I've been 45/16 for as long as I can remember, totemic focus is a definite must and mental quickness is an added boost. I'd call that the basic build right now for, as much as I hate the phrase, totem twisting.
#3582SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I've added a sub-section refuting Elemental Devastation builds.
This is somewhat depressing. Even the most careless analysis comes to a very quick and very clear conclusion about the quality of that talent.

On a serious note the fact that they seem to have revisted the BT trinkets is probably bad news for us. I would be somewhat shocked if our uptime has not been changed. I will test this first thing when I get home from work.
#3583SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Slothrop View Post
I know the OP asked not to discuss builds, I've gone through the entire OP and searched various threads and could not find a Shaman builds discussion. While I would be interested in finding different builds (such as 0/42/19, 0/44/17, etc.) contrasted, I have some specific questions about enhancement builds not answered in the OP.

This note from drats implies that even the last point is needed in mental quickness in order to totem twist and rotate shocks. But the typical builds I have seen for enhancement (e.g. 0/42/19: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator) do not assign any points at all to mental quickness.

What would be considered a basic, no-frills build for totem-twisting enhancement shamans?
I think Healing Focus is pretty much a waste of 5 talent points for an enhancement shaman.
#3584SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
◊ Rob
For a raid it's definitely a waste, but for world or unorganized BG PvP and solo grinding it can be extremely useful.

This is probably the purest enhancement PvE build post-2.3.

Last edited by Rob : 10/11/07 at 6:08 PM.
#3585SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Xoya
The only time I have even remotely wished I had Healing Focus was on rare occasions on Archimonde where I've somehow gotten doomfire + airburst, there was no healer in range of me, and I wanted to keep myself topped off after my absorb pot wore off before running back in closer to Archimonde. Even then, though, I've never died to not having Healing Focus, and I certainly wouldn't waste 5 points on it.

Last edited by Xoya : 10/11/07 at 6:04 PM. Reason: grammar
#3586SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
From 2.3 PTR notes (taken them from WoR as forums ones are cut off)

First Weapon Skill change?

- Expertise: We have added a new stat and associated rating called expertise and expertise rating. Expertise rating converts to expertise at the same rate that weapon skill rating formerly converted at. Each point of expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried by 0.25%.

Weapon Skill: All items and abilities that granted weapon skill have been changed. In most cases, they were converted to expertise or expertise rating. Ranged attacks do not benefit from expertise, so ranged weapon skill has generally been replaced by critical strike bonuses or hit bonuses. In a few cases, talents have been changed to other effects to avoid granting players excessive amounts of expertise.

And then shamans --

Shaman
- Chain Lightning cast time reduced to 2.0 (from 2.5), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately.
- Cure Poison and Cure Disease range increased to 40 yards.
- Elemental Focus (Elemental) now reduces the mana cost of the next 2 damage spells by 40%.
- Frost Shock is no longer subject to diminishing returns.
- Grounding Totem: This totem is now destroyed upon redirecting any spell to itself.
- Lightning Bolt cast time reduced to 2.5 (from 3.0 where applicable), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately.
- Lightning Mastery (Elemental) cast time reduction reduced to .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds.
- Lightning Overload (Elemental) now has a 4/8/12/16/20% chance to occur and the additional spell causes half damage and no additional threat.
- Mana Spring Totem effect increased.
- Mental Quickness (Enhancement) now also increases spell damage and healing equal to 10/20/30% of your attack power.
- Two-Handed Axes and Two-Handed Maces are now trainable by all Shaman at the appropriate weapon masters. The Enhancement talent has been replaced by Shamanistic Focus.
- Shamanistic Focus (New Enhancement Talent): After landing a melee critical strike, you enter a Focused state. The Focused state reduces the mana cost of your next Shock spell by 60%.
- Shamanistic Rage (Enhancement) now also reduces all damage taken by 30% for the duration.
- Spirit Weapons (Enhancement) threat reduction increased to 30% from 15%.
- Rockbiter Weapon: For ranks 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 the increased damage resulting from this enchantment has been reduced slightly to match the intended numbers given in the tooltip. Ranks 1, 2, 3, and 9 are unchanged.
- Water Shield: This spell no longer costs any mana to cast and its duration has been shortened. At the end of its duration, it now grants mana for any remaining globes. In addition, the mana granted per globe has been substantially increased.
- Windfury Weapon: This enchantment can no longer be triggered while you are disarmed.
#3587SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
For a raid it's definitely a waste, but for world or unorganized BG PvP and solo grinding it can be extremely useful.

This is probably the purest enhancement PvE build post-2.3.
You have 1 free talent point!

First Weapon Skill change?

- Expertise: We have added a new stat and associated rating called expertise and expertise rating. Expertise rating converts to expertise at the same rate that weapon skill rating formerly converted at. Each point of expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried by 0.25%.

Weapon Skill: All items and abilities that granted weapon skill have been changed. In most cases, they were converted to expertise or expertise rating. Ranged attacks do not benefit from expertise, so ranged weapon skill has generally been replaced by critical strike bonuses or hit bonuses. In a few cases, talents have been changed to other effects to avoid granting players excessive amounts of expertise.
So.. depending on skill->expertise conversions this could be a buff!
#3588SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beroll
- Expertise: We have added a new stat and associated rating called expertise and expertise rating. Expertise rating converts to expertise at the same rate that weapon skill rating formerly converted at. Each point of expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried by 0.25%.
- Weapon Skill: All items and abilities that granted weapon skill have been changed. In most cases, they were converted to expertise or expertise rating.


What does this change mean to us Axe-wielding Orcs? How does +5 to Axes translate into Expertise Rating?
#3589SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Beroll View Post
- Expertise: We have added a new stat and associated rating called expertise and expertise rating. Expertise rating converts to expertise at the same rate that weapon skill rating formerly converted at. Each point of expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried by 0.25%.
- Weapon Skill: All items and abilities that granted weapon skill have been changed. In most cases, they were converted to expertise or expertise rating.


What does this change mean to us Axe-wielding Orcs? How does +5 to Axes translate into Expertise Rating?
My bet:
~1.25% less dodge and parry.

So you should only notice the difference while attacking from front (parry) and if you hit any +hit cap (be it 9% for yellow or 28% for dual wield)

But I guess we'll need to reevaluate the whole +Hitcap story again, since without weapon skill anymore we cannot really explain the 24%-28% values anymore. But i guess it is just replaced with higher dodge. Atleast we can assume now that any boss has 5.94% dodge and 5.94% parry (if applicable). Maybe they changed the whole miss thing anyway and this is actually a buff and not just some name change.

Last edited by Tornhoof : 10/11/07 at 6:32 PM.
#3590SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Unless we get something like 2 expertise rating per 1 skill rating, it sounds like a PvE nerf for Enhancement Shamans. Our only option was 100 Deaths and with a 1:1 conversion, we're now getting 1.5% fewer dodges instead of 3% more hits. (Parry reduction is only marginally useful on boss fights.)

I would bet that +5 to Axe weapon skill will be changed to something like +2% hit and +2% crit when wielding an axe, but I'm not really sure. It sounds like weapon-specific expertise is no longer something that Blizzard is interested in, but if they are, then maybe you'll get 5 expertise out of it (unknown # of rating).
#3591SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Yeh if they changed the 100 death belt to something different (like +crit/hit) we can easily assume that weapon expertise rating is primarily for tanks.
#3592SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
My bet:
~1.25% less dodge and parry.

So you should only notice the difference while attacking from front (parry) and if you hit any +hit cap (be it 9% for yellow or 28% for dual wield)

But I guess we'll need to reevaluate the whole +Hitcap story again, since without weapon skill anymore we cannot really explain the 24%-28% values anymore. But i guess it is just replaced with higher dodge. Atleast we can assume now that any boss has 5.94% dodge and 5.94% parry (if applicable). Maybe they changed the whole miss thing anyway and this is actually a buff and not just some name change.
So far it sounds like the second big Orc-nerf to me and I'm upset about it. Two years ago I decided to create an Orc because of his racials, not because of his look or something...
#3593SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Razar
From the 2.3 Patch notes:
Ashtongue Talisman of Vision: This item will no longer receive multiple chances to trigger per cast of Stormstrike.
The AEP of the [Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] will likely need to be recalculated.
#3594SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Slothrop
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I've been 45/16 for as long as I can remember, totemic focus is a definite must and mental quickness is an added boost. I'd call that the basic build right now for, as much as I hate the phrase, totem twisting.
Is this the 0/45/16 build you are talking about? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I checked out the most popular 0/45/16 builds on The Build Mine (What are the top 10 Shaman specs, and the top 10 builds of that spec?), and among those oriented for PvE, I see that although they follow the template above, the different versions of 0/45/16 trade off "Enhancing Totems" (for SoE), "Anticipation", "Weapons Totems" (for WF), and "Mental Quickness", since you can't put points in all four of these without giving up something somewhere else. And they also differ in how they get to Totemic Mastery and Nature's Guidance in the way they split the first five resto points between "Improved Healing Wave" vs. "Tidal Focus".

I'd be interested in views on these tradeoffs in a 0/45/16 build.
#3595SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Slothrop View Post
Is this the 0/45/16 build you are talking about? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I checked out the most popular 0/45/16 builds on The Build Mine (What are the top 10 Shaman specs, and the top 10 builds of that spec?), and among those oriented for PvE, I see that although they follow the template above, the different versions of 0/45/16 trade off "Enhancing Totems" (for SoE), "Anticipation", "Weapons Totems" (for WF), and "Mental Quickness", since you can't put points in all four of these without giving up something somewhere else. And they also differ in how they get to Totemic Mastery and Nature's Guidance in the way they split the first five resto points between "Improved Healing Wave" vs. "Tidal Focus".

I'd be interested in views on these tradeoffs in a 0/45/16 build.
Anticipation is by far the worst PVE talent out of all of those that you listed. I don't see why anyone would drop points anywhere to max anticipation. I also have 0 desire to click through a dozen different allocations of the third tier of enhancement talents, I'll swap out a point in anticipation for shamanistic focus when it's released and it'll still be the best raid DPS spec.
#3596SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Razar View Post
From the 2.3 Patch notes:


The AEP of the [Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] will likely need to be recalculated.
Ugh. Unless the AP got buffed, if it's really down to 50% per SS, DST, Madness, and TT all beat it -- even before considering that SS can be dodged or parried. Oh well, we knew this was coming.
#3597SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Bah, I knew the change to the Ashtongue trinket was coming, but seriously it was quite nice having it, so I'm rather annoyed about it, especially considering due to my reroll from Resto to Enhancement came recently; so I never really got a chance at getting a DST or a Tsunami Talisman, so I'm left out a bit in the cold if the nerf is harsh enough =/.

Oh well, just have to play the DST lottery every week I guess!
#3598SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Well, we can hope that the chance to proc on SS debuff application was removed but the chances to proc on each weapon hit still exist so we get a 75% proc chance if the SS isn't dodged or parried. That would yield something like 275*.75*.944 ~= 195 AEP when attacking from behind.
#3599SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Originally Posted by Slothrop View Post
This note from drats implies that even the last point is needed in mental quickness in order to totem twist and rotate shocks. But the typical builds I have seen for enhancement (e.g. 0/42/19:
I was trying to illustrate a point to the person I was replying to. He had no points in Totemic Focus, was missing the last point in Mental Quickness, and wasn't able to maintain a totem twisting rotation because of this.

Depending on your gear, it's possible to skip that last point and put it somewhere else. I just can't imagine a better return for 1 talent point once you've filled out the rest of the tree.

I see that although they follow the template above, the different versions of 0/45/16 trade off "Enhancing Totems" (for SoE), "Anticipation", "Weapons Totems" (for WF), and "Mental Quickness", since you can't put points in all four of these without giving up something somewhere else.
Rava said it already, but just to eliminate any confusion (and so people can refer back to it) I'll say it again. When speaking of maximizing group and personal DPS, you need all of those talents except anticipation. Two points in anticipation is the lesser evil when picking useless talents at the earlier tiers of enhancement, due to the fact it can save you in a jam.
#3600SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aegospotami
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I raid with 77, Sebudai raids with 80 something, the acceptable range is what you can manage while maximizing your other stats.
Thanks for responding to my post, but I have a slight beef here. Mr. "Math Crazed Spider Monkey" OP talks a lot about numbers and precise values, but he doesn't have anything that lists the range for hit rating, and "what you can manage" doesn't tell me anything.

I know the argument is that slightly more misses are acceptable if the hits themselves do enough damage to compensate for the misses, but there's no data on what AP should be to compensate for those misses, or what range hit should be to at least be effective in a raid situation.

I wish I could go and test this solo, but we all know I can't. So the only option is going into a raid untested and watch the performance while my miss rate could severely hurt the overal DPS of our melee group.

Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place.
#3601SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Aegospotami
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I raid with 77, Sebudai raids with 80 something, the acceptable range is what you can manage while maximizing your other stats.
Thanks for responding to my post, but I have a slight beef here. Mr. "Math Crazed Spider Monkey" OP talks a lot about numbers and precise values, but he doesn't have anything that lists the range for hit rating, and "what you can manage" doesn't tell me anything.

I know the argument is that slightly more misses are acceptable if the hits themselves do enough damage to compensate for the misses, but there's no data on what AP should be to compensate for those misses, or what range hit should be to at least be effective in a raid situation.

I wish I could go and test this solo, but we all know I can't. So the only option is going into a raid untested and watch the performance while my miss rate could severely hurt the overal DPS of our melee group.

Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place.
#3602SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Rob
You know, you are acting awfully entitled.

Try reading the first post before you act like that.
Originally Posted by Malan
Take the talents to hit cap your specials, any hit rating on gear after that is icing on the cake.

Last edited by Rob : 10/11/07 at 9:37 PM.
#3603SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Aegospotami View Post
Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place.
There is no straight answer other than use whatever gear gives the most AEP for your current particular set of stats. This changes as you gain or lose different stats and you'll have to figure it out for yourself using any of the available simulations. You could even write words on the wall and throw darts at them to get the appropriate stats for you, it is that dependent on your current variables.

Missing doesn't hurt your group's dps, the only thing that affects them is mana (to drop totems) and critical strikes(for UR).
#3604SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Yeah, Malan summarized it pretty well. Both hit talents. That's it. All the hit that comes with your gear is a bonus. As you might notice from my profile that means quite some. I don't even aim for any hit, but all our sets have quite a lot of it... kinda.
#3605SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by Aegospotami View Post
Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place.
Take the talents to hit cap your specials, any hit rating on gear after that is icing on the cake.

It clearly, quite clearly tells me exactly how much hit rating I "need" on my gear.

Since you are being bullheaded about this situation, I'll spell it out for you. An enchancement shaman "NEEDS ZERO +HIT" on their gear. That goes for every enhancement shaman who has the +hit talents maxxed out and is wearing reasonable gear.

If by some miracle you are wearing gear that nets you thousands of AP but absolutely zero crit chance and no +hit, you should run the simulators mentioned in the first post and see whether +hit has a higher AEP than other stats.
#3606SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
A thought I've had recently.. I find that even with just 63 hit rating there are times when I get somewhat unlucky and shamanistic rage doesn't actually fill my mana bar. This is mainly a problem on fights where I need to be saving my potion cooldowns for other things (super health pots, absorb pots, etc.). Am I correct in assuming that this isn't considered in the valuation for hit rating?
#3607SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Igniter
I guess the good times of a broken class trinket couldn't last, oh well. Hopefully they are unable to fix it patch after patch (lol vanish).
#3608SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Aeolian
Originally Posted by Aegospotami View Post
Thanks for responding to my post, but I have a slight beef here. Mr. "Math Crazed Spider Monkey" OP talks a lot about numbers and precise values, but he doesn't have anything that lists the range for hit rating, and "what you can manage" doesn't tell me anything.

I know the argument is that slightly more misses are acceptable if the hits themselves do enough damage to compensate for the misses, but there's no data on what AP should be to compensate for those misses, or what range hit should be to at least be effective in a raid situation.

I wish I could go and test this solo, but we all know I can't. So the only option is going into a raid untested and watch the performance while my miss rate could severely hurt the overal DPS of our melee group.

Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place.
So what kind of an answer do you expect? You want a specific number to go after? Fine, I'll give you one, aim for 120. There is no reason behind it, I pulled it out of my butt, but at least you have no reason to act stupid. What you can manage is the best answer that can be given to you. Most of us that raid do not stack hit, nor do we ignore hit, we gain hit as our gear improves and provides us hit. You will see shamans anywhere from 70 to 200 hit rating depending on their gear. Focus on Crit and Attack Power and the like, and gather hit on good pieces of gear as you can.
#3609SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Oteb View Post
I am always top or second on decursing done on vashij for example(killing nagas. all mages locks melee tanks are within range)
And as for dps contribution. The question is: is 20% more total uptime of goa is better than damage contribution of shocking. I bet answer is yes but only till patch. And only in perfect oe close to perftect group( we often raid without warrior or with just 1 rogue)
One fight is not enough to base your entire DPS cycle around

The question you pose is irrelevant. You prioritize the highest DPS method, and do the other one only when you have excess mana.
#3610SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Aegospotami
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
You know, you are acting awfully entitled.

Try reading the first post before you act like that.
I've read the post about 15 times over the last month or two, and I mentioned that in my earlier post on top of thanking dude for his reply -- twice.

But if the High King of Enhancement Shaman OP is going to go on about having so much math behind his theorycraft, then it's reasonable to expect even a slight indication of how much hit a shaman should have. Otherwise don't pretend to be the authority on all things Enhancement, because most of us are just trying to optimize our toons amid a flood of information scattered across dozens of sites. (For instance, WoWWiki puts the *minimum* Hit Rating for pre-Kara at 125.)

You all know this is true -- go to the official forums and there will be 20 different answers.
#3611SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
then it's reasonable to expect even a slight indication of how much hit a shaman should have.
How many times do we have to say this? You need 0 hit rating on your gear since yellow damage is capped with talents. At that point, crit and AP have a much better return then hit rating.
Do a search in this topic if you want the math behind it.

I kindly suggest you think twice about your next post, you'r walking a very thin line at the moment. The line of 'yet another official forums visitor who found a link to this topic there'.
And those people dont last long here.
#3612SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3seminarca
Originally Posted by Aegospotami View Post
*minimum* Hit Rating
Wow, there's no reason to be this obtuse.

What everyone here is trying to tell you is that arbitrarily declaring "minimum" hit rating is absolutely useless.

Trust in the AEP. Run your stats through a sim. Evaluate all your gear options using the AEP you get from the sim. Pick the best options. From those best options you've just picked, add up all the hit rating on them. That number you get? THAT is the minimum hit rating you should be aiming for. And wow lookie here, you just reached it. If your gear then deviates substantially due to upgrades, run the sim again.
#3613SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Aegospotami View Post
I've read the post about 15 times over the last month or two, and I mentioned that in my earlier post on top of thanking dude for his reply -- twice.

But if the High King of Enhancement Shaman OP is going to go on about having so much math behind his theorycraft, then it's reasonable to expect even a slight indication of how much hit a shaman should have. Otherwise don't pretend to be the authority on all things Enhancement, because most of us are just trying to optimize our toons amid a flood of information scattered across dozens of sites. (For instance, WoWWiki puts the *minimum* Hit Rating for pre-Kara at 125.)

You all know this is true -- go to the official forums and there will be 20 different answers.
The official forums suck. Wowwiki sucks. Get out of our thread if you're here to bicker and ask pointless questions. I think we need to try and cut down on links to the shaman forums when at all possible. Has anyone transfered over yet to test? Itching to see if the class trinket is balls now, or if it was somehow balanced even with the proc change.
#3614SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
So yeah now that we're done with the other guy, anyone care to comment on my observation about hit rating having an undocumented contribution to DPS in the form of added mana through Shamanistic Rage? (I say undocumented because I'm pretty certain it's not considered in the current ratings we use)
#3615SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n.../newloots9.jpg

Your shock spells have a chance to grant 110 attack power for 10 seconds.

zzzzzzzzz
#3616SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
smokey
nothing

Last edited by smokey : 10/12/07 at 1:42 AM.
#3617SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
That's ... pretty lame. :/ Shocks are cast once every 6 seconds, MAX, for an enhancement shaman. Compare this to the 100 haste rating elemental shamans get when they lightning bolt (which they're doing once every 2.2 seconds or so). I guess we'll have to wait and see what the proc rate is, but still. -_-
#3618SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Boratz
@ Aegospotami

The reason people are getting frustrated with your question and persistence, is because it demonstrates an apparent lack of understanding as to what we all read/talk about here.

There is no single number to aim for because the 9% from our talents covers you well enough. If you get some on gear, great. If you don't, no need to cry.

The point is, you should be running some of the Simulators on the first page and inputting your current stats. Those sims (particularly Yo's sim) will give you an idea of what AEP values you need to be aiming for, and thus in terms of immediately upgrading your gear what items you should be seeking to acquire.

No one has an exact number because there isn't one. Its different for every shaman in every instance. The current values of your gear in terms of crit/hit/AP and so on will always mean that my requirements gear wise to increase my overall dps will almost, 99/100 times, be different to yours. They may result in us taking the same piece of gear, but at the end of the day my figures will likely differ from yours in terms of desired AEP values.

I hope this clarifys.
#3619SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kombinat
Here's a question for you all, and I hope like crazy that nobody in my guild ever finds out about my asking it.

I'm coming in the top 3-5 on our Gruul runs, and often. I'm beating mages and warlocks. I'm threat capped on most attempts, and I just don't shock on Gruul, too busy keeping totems up and timing my shamanistic rages, plus it gives me a bit of headroom on threat. I've gotten some upgrades recently, but nothing to crow about. In my gear, should this be happening? Shouldn't my fellow raiders be beating the ever loving piss out of me? Even with totem twisting, I'm out dpsing the rogues and warriors in my group.

Any input appreciated, regarding whether or not this should be occurring.
#3620SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Has anyone looked at the new Badge of Justice loot? Except for the gloves (better than T5 gloves, I think), most of the leather seems much better than the mail due to the addition of sockets (also, I'm not sure how to rate armour penetration yet).
#3621SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
BoinKlasik
edit: nevermind found it on mmo-champion, wasn't showing on my wow forums page.

edit2: if it really only has a 50% chance to proc, its only a passive 137.5 ap which puts it down below the tsunami talisman I guess I don't care about exalted with the ashtongue anymore.

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 10/12/07 at 3:26 AM. Reason: im an idiot.
#3622SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Kombinat View Post
Here's a question for you all, and I hope like crazy that nobody in my guild ever finds out about my asking it.

I'm coming in the top 3-5 on our Gruul runs, and often. I'm beating mages and warlocks. I'm threat capped on most attempts, and I just don't shock on Gruul, too busy keeping totems up and timing my shamanistic rages, plus it gives me a bit of headroom on threat. I've gotten some upgrades recently, but nothing to crow about. In my gear, should this be happening? Shouldn't my fellow raiders be beating the ever loving piss out of me? Even with totem twisting, I'm out dpsing the rogues and warriors in my group.

Any input appreciated, regarding whether or not this should be occurring.
This will be easier to answer if you have WWS parses or other clean data regarding how much dps you're doing and how much dps they're doing.

It could be that you're a phenom, and are doing a lot more damage than most enhance shaman. It could be that your gear really is that much better than theirs. It could be that they are horrible players.

It's just very hard to say without knowing the specifics. The easiest initial question to answer - what's your overall dps for the encounter. You know that you're in the top 3-5, so that means someone's running damage meters, so the info should be readily available.
#3623SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Getting some inconsistent results from Yo's simulator lately. I just ran five 10,000 hour simulations and these were the results:

Stat/AEP Value
Crit Rating - 2.35, 2.02, 1.86, 2.01, 2.31
Hit Rating - 1.92, 1.87, 1.68, 2.29, 1.92
Haste Rating - 2.33, 1.96, 2.03, 1.96, 1.95
Armor Penetration - 0.38, 0.39, 0.39, 0.38, 0.38
Agility - 2.28, 1.97, 1.81, 1.96, 2.24

Those values vary quite a bit. Am I doin' it wrong?
#3624SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Ran the simulator again, this time without the "30% ap to spell damage" option turned on, and the results were much more consistent:

Stat/AEP Value
Crit Rating - 2.01, 2.05, 2.06, 1.99, 2.09
Hit Rating - 1.95, 1.91, 1.98, 1.96, 1.97
Haste Rating - 1.95, 1.96, 1.99, 1.96, 2.03
Armor Penetration - 0.39, 0.39, 0.40, 0.39, 0.39
Agility - 1.96, 2.0, 2.0, 1.94, 2.03

So is checking the "30% ap to spell damage option on causing problems? Is this a known issue with the simulator? Is this an issue at all or is it working correctly?
#3625SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Skiace
Originally Posted by Kombinat View Post
Here's a question for you all, and I hope like crazy that nobody in my guild ever finds out about my asking it.

I'm coming in the top 3-5 on our Gruul runs, and often. I'm beating mages and warlocks. I'm threat capped on most attempts, and I just don't shock on Gruul, too busy keeping totems up and timing my shamanistic rages, plus it gives me a bit of headroom on threat. I've gotten some upgrades recently, but nothing to crow about. In my gear, should this be happening? Shouldn't my fellow raiders be beating the ever loving piss out of me? Even with totem twisting, I'm out dpsing the rogues and warriors in my group.

Any input appreciated, regarding whether or not this should be occurring.
your gear is very similar to mine (nearly identical AP/crit, i have more hit and a dragonmaw) and i find myself in a very similar situation. Last week's gruul kill (our guild's 3rd, WWS here) i came in second at ~689 dps, losing only to our best BM hunter. I was right on the HS-tank's heels the whole fight. For me, this is simply a matter of the casual nature of my guild and the people in it. Just last week I got our shadow priest to try out stopcasting macros, and i'm pretty sure none of the mages or warlocks use them. I do better dps because most people in my guild aren't min/maxing at all.

Hell, in that WWS there's two other enhance shaman who come in below me (#6 & 10 in dps). Both of these shaman have been in the guild longer than me, have several pieces of arena gear, and have collected much more loot from Kara. One of them has the guild's only Dragonspine Trophy. But i still beat them because I've been reading this thread since it started and continually applying the knowledge here in game to make gear choices. I wear Midnight Legguards while one of them wears the t4 kilt for the 4-piece set bonus, and the other is waiting to replace his Midnight Legguards with Rip-Flayers. You are beating these people because they are not getting the most out of their class, be it poor gearing, poor play , or both.

Last edited by Skiace : 10/12/07 at 5:21 AM.
#3651SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mextro
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik View Post
if there was any sort of cooldown, the line between it being better than astral winds would get VERY small. The relic would have no right being purple. I double it would even be useful with a proc rate under like 20% or much of a cooldown. It shouldn't take a ton of math to prove an epic is better than a blue (although that appears to only be my opinion, not blizzard's).
They haven't removed the mp5 on enhancement tiers so i don't i think this relic will be any better then astrall winds.
#3652SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by xereva View Post
Uhm, isn't the Astral Winds totem 80 AP on each Windfury Weapon attack, while the 110 AP is on ALL attacks?
It is, but if that thing is up for more than 15 seconds per minute when you lay on full shock spam I'll be, well, shocked. I'm guessing 1 PPM, which makes it pretty much terrible for anyone that does totem twisting.
#3653SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
although that 160 number you just quoted makes me wonder if the 40% effect to WF attacks from talents affects that 80 ap per weapon number.

Originally Posted by Jyca
Stumbled across a link(which ive now lost, typical) where the stonebreaker proc had been recorded on wowhead and was stated as a 50% chance to proc.
here most likely. 50% proc rate + no cooldown is a passive 55/66 ap (depending on spec: 60/12 (2 shocks to make a proc)*110/10 (ap/duration of proc)
reverberation 60/10*110/10) I think that is the correct math.

I think in both of those cases the new relic would be clearly superior since it does not appear from the wowhead link to be on a PPM (ppm effects don't have proc chances.

sign me up for some of that.
#3654SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik View Post
I think in both of those cases the new relic would be clearly superior since it does not appear from the wowhead link to be on a PPM (ppm effects don't have proc chances.
If and only if you are using shocks on every cooldown. If you are twisting or holding off shocks, less benefit.
#3655SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
Wow that arena totem is amazingly bad. The only use I can think of for any of them is that they should provide junk buffs to fend off purge spam.

I am also truly disappointed in the new badge rewards. They stated clearly that the intent of the new rewards was to fill itemization holes for offspecs. Looking at those rewards every piece we would truly crave is plate and all of the mail is hunter/resto/elemental loot. I feel bad for the guys in smaller guilds that were banking on these to gear up.
#3656SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
There's not much melee mail, but there are at least a few good pieces (they do have int on them, sadly) and there's a ton of feral loot to steal.
#3657SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
The feral items though have increased armor, so even those are reduced in item points available for normal stats.
#3658SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Galeyra
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
According to a post in the 2.3 PTR changes thread, Orc Racial was changed to 5% crit (I have not verified this) and Belt of One Hundred Deaths is just going to be a 1:1 swap of Weapon Skill to Weapon Expertise.
Orc Racial is just 1% crit with axes and twohanded axes, but your right about the belt.
#3659SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
If and only if you are using shocks on every cooldown. If you are twisting or holding off shocks, less benefit.
Yes, good point, a disclaimer would have to be made that this is under best case (for the shaman's personal dps) circumstances. Though, with the changes to shock mana costs (through the crit talent) and my change in guilds depriving me of a dedicated paladin for JoW I have moved back to doing full time shock rotations. But the math still holds true if the shaman is just shocking.
#3660SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Galeyra View Post
Orc Racial is just 1% crit with axes and twohanded axes, but your right about the belt.
Ouch, that's a lot worse.
#3661SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
berg
I am probably a little more annoyed than I should be but the itemization is really starting to grind on me.

It is easy to think 'There should not be melee mail cause only one person would use it.'
In reality this is simply unfair to us and I think we should be making more of an issue out of it.

There is tons of amazing loot for us out there, but the majority of it plate. I feel that atleast half of those drops should be mail.

Good gear designed for us would NOT be exclusive to us. It could be shared amongst Enhance shaman, Ret pallies and Arms/Fury warriors. Instead of all of those classes sharing loot that is perfect for them, they get free armor that they do not use and we get nothing.

Last edited by berg : 10/12/07 at 12:20 PM.
#3662SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3david0925
Originally Posted by berg View Post
I am probably a little more annoyed than I should be but the itemization is really starting to grind on me.

It is easy to think 'There should not be melee mail cause only one person would use it.'
In reality this is simply unfair to us and I think we should be making more of an issue out of it.

For example
Rogues and Hunters both got amazing T6 and random drops to back them up.
Ferals got random pieces crafted to their needs
Moonkin got random pieces crafted to their needs
Elemental got random pieces crafted to their needs
Plate with healing on it etc etc.

There is tons of amazing loot for us out there, but it is all plate. I feel that atleast half of those drops should be mail.

Good gear designed for us would NOT be exclusive to us. It could be shared amongst Enhance shaman, Ret pallies and Arms/Fury warriors. Instead of all of those classes sharing loot that is perfect for them, they get some free armor and we get nothing.
First of all, I would agree with you about the lack of proper enhancement shaman gear. However, I am strongly opposed to diluting the loot table to adding items that only 1 spec of a specific class can use optimally.

As a Druid main, I can tell you that there are no proper feral itemization in T6 content, with the exception of the set pieces. The fix they did was changing our talent from 20% strength in cat form, to 10% AP in cat form. While there are still a lot of whiners out there about lack of items optimzed to ferals, it is much better that, with this design, Druids can comfortably share drops with Rogues without gimping themselves.

Similarly, it would be nice if mp5 is somehow incorporated into the talents (for example, 100% of mp5 is converted to crit rating. Don't argue with how good/bad this actually is please, being just an example), instead of trying to cater to the needs of current enhancement shaman and further diluting the loot table.

Also in this patch, Retdin's mechanics changed so they can easily share warrior plates. I would hope they change moonkin's armor benefits to maybe 200%, but give them the ability to wear mail, so that they can share drops with elemental shaman.
#3663SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
I am not asking for gear to say "Classes:Shaman" on it.

My point is that fury/ret could use the same gear optimally if it were mail. They dont need that AC, it is just icing to them. They would never elect to tank in that gear over real tanking items.

They do not need to dilute anything. Our dream itemization already exists, we just cannot wear it.
#3664SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hamilburg
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Astral Winds: 160 more AP (effectively) every time WF procs, which is 10-15 times a minute.
At 12 PPM, that's 1920 bonus AP per minute
vs
110 AP on shock trinket that has a maximum PPM chance of 10 for most builds, and an optimistic probable uptime of 30% or so at 2 PPM. That'd put it at 2200 bonus AP per minute, but it's reliant on shock spam which is not as effective as twisting for most people.

Keep farming mana tombs.
How the heck are you arriving at these numbers?
If I adopt your method of tabulating things in terms of AP-swing/minute units I can arrive at your figure of 1920 for Astral Winds.

Assuming a 33% uptime for the shock totem I would come out with:
4 Windfury procs - 8 swings at 110 AP each. 880 AP
Presume 50% flurry uptime, and dual 2.6 speed weapons, is 8.7 swings with both offhand and mainhand. Accounting for the offhand penalty - 13.05 swings, or 1435.5 AP.
2 Stormstrikes in that 20 second uptime, for an additional 3 swings (counting the offhand as .5 again). 330 AP.
---------
Total AP contribution 2645 AP-swing/minute.
Not taken into account - Improved Windfury boosting the AP contribution of Windfury attacks higher
- Different miss chances for autoattack vs stormstrike/windfury
- Glancing blows

And for not working with totem twisting - A pure shocker can get off 10 shocks per minute. A totem twister can get off... what... 80% of that (37.5% of time taken by twisting, presuming an 8 second cycle. 15% of time taken by Stormstrike. Shocking every cooldown would be 25% which would still be allowed). At 80% of optimal uptime (caused by cooldowns landing on top of each other and Earthshock being low priority on the totempole), the new totem still would seem competitive if you presume that 30% uptime. If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.
#3665SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
I could test all the questions asked on the previous page and even check out the new Totem's uptime... but yeah, Character Copy is down. -.-
#3666SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Hamilburg View Post
...If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.
Take it into consideration that it can be possible that lower rank shocks have lower procrate for the relic (or no procrate at all)
#3667SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3ChaguraED
Affect of Orc Racial change on Weapon Choice

With the new Changes to the Orc Axe Racial, will the Black Planar Edge, be less desirable then the Dragonmaw? 3% +Hit was a significant stat, but will 1% Crit not be significant enough to tip the scales in it's favor?
#3668SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
First of all, I would agree with you about the lack of proper enhancement shaman gear. However, I am strongly opposed to diluting the loot table to adding items that only 1 spec of a specific class can use optimally.

As a Druid main, I can tell you that there are no proper feral itemization in T6 content, with the exception of the set pieces. The fix they did was changing our talent from 20% strength in cat form, to 10% AP in cat form. While there are still a lot of whiners out there about lack of items optimzed to ferals, it is much better that, with this design, Druids can comfortably share drops with Rogues without gimping themselves.

Similarly, it would be nice if mp5 is somehow incorporated into the talents (for example, 100% of mp5 is converted to crit rating. Don't argue with how good/bad this actually is please, being just an example), instead of trying to cater to the needs of current enhancement shaman and further diluting the loot table.

Also in this patch, Retdin's mechanics changed so they can easily share warrior plates. I would hope they change moonkin's armor benefits to maybe 200%, but give them the ability to wear mail, so that they can share drops with elemental shaman.
It would be a start if at last our own special T6 set had the right stats. But even this is packed with useless mp5 and too much int.
#3669SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Peterbilt
Question on Weapons

My apologies for interrupting the patch info discussion, and I apologize in advance if this question has been answered previously. I've scoured all 140+ pages of the thread, but my head's still spinning from the info. ; )

It's been stated that Dragonstrike is one of the 'best' MH weapons for enhancement. It's also been stated that the Merciless Gladiator <whatever> is the best OH. I'm currently wielding Dragonmaw and Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, and before I invest in Nether Vortexes for the upgrade, I need some advice.

My thoughts;

Dragonstrike is .10 slower than the Merciless Gladiator OH, thus the OH is receiving the first chance for WF procs after the hidden CD.

My guild is in Black Temple, so I have access to Rising Tide. As a matter of fact, no one else wants it, so it's mine when it drops.

Would it be more advisable to go for Rising Tide as MH, and Merciless Gladiator in OH? The speeds would mean the MH would catch most of my WF procs after CD. Or does Dragonstrike, and the haste, have an inherent AEP value I'm not seeing that makes it more DPS even with the speed offset? Simply put, Dragonstrike or Rising Tide? (Syphon isn't an option right now, since there's a long line of rogues in front of me waiting for it. = / )
#3670SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Yo's Simulator would be your best answer, figure out the stat difference for each option and then plug them into the sim on a long time span, run each scenario several times, then compare the results.
#3671SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
@Peterbilt you prolly want to just spend some time with Yo!'s simulator before people start yelling at you

edit: Malan = ninja
#3672SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Peterbilt
lol ok, I will.

I get shaky and nauseous when people yell at me. = (

BBL after trying Yo's!
#3673SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Peterbilt View Post
(Syphon isn't an option right now, since there's a long line of rogues in front of me waiting for it. = / )
Tell your rogues to man up and use swords.

Originally Posted by Hamburg
And for not working with totem twisting - A pure shocker can get off 10 shocks per minute. A totem twister can get off... what... 80% of that (37.5% of time taken by twisting, presuming an 8 second cycle. 15% of time taken by Stormstrike. Shocking every cooldown would be 25% which would still be allowed). At 80% of optimal uptime (caused by cooldowns landing on top of each other and Earthshock being low priority on the totempole), the new totem still would seem competitive if you presume that 30% uptime. If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.
Currently? <50% of someone who shocks on cd. I can tell you've never played with totems before and think that mana and gcd's grow on trees. Shamanistic focus will play in for like another 15-20% of available shocks with GCD being your main hinderance(4 front loaded globals = no second shock per rotation window). You could mix up the rotation a little and put a shock earlier on which would just delay your actual benefit to a raid, I guess.

This is stuff I'd really like to test myself rather than read speculation or 2nd hand info from terrible WoW forums, but character copy is so amazing.
#3674SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
If anyone out there knows how to write firefox plugins, I would *love* an AEP calculator that would store my personal AEP values, and then allow me to input an item link from wowhead or something, and calculate the AEP value for me.
#3675SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hamilburg
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Tell your rogues to man up and use swords.



Currently? <50% of someone who shocks on cd. I can tell you've never played with totems before and think that mana and gcd's grow on trees. Shamanistic focus will play in for like another 15-20% of available shocks with GCD being your main hinderance(4 front loaded globals = no second shock per rotation window). You could mix up the rotation a little and put a shock earlier on which would just delay your actual benefit to a raid, I guess.

This is stuff I'd really like to test myself rather than read speculation or 2nd hand info from terrible WoW forums, but character copy is so amazing.
http://elitistjerks.com/505038-post3526.html

80% shocks, 100% windfury uptime, 65% GoA/TA uptime.
Then it becomes a measure of 20% GoA uptime vs the shocks and benefit possible benefit from the new totem.

Certainly the new totem is aimed at shocking, it'd be silly to suggest otherwise.
#3776SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Stigmata, droprate of Vortexes is really luck based these times. Sometimes we get 5 per whole clear of TK (excepting KT as these are guaranteed), sometimes we get 10.
Regarding melee haste, they should revert it back and I hope they will do it. Why there should be so much of haste on all Badge&ZA gear? (or am I too optimistic?)
#3777SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
5 sounds about the same as when last I entered, but as Ralene said, they are only just starting VR, so they would do alot less trash.
#3778SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Last time we did TK we got 3 >.> (including 2 from Kael!).
#3779SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3everwatch
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Berg I can add a note in there about that if you think that's an issue.

Is Yo's sim behaving badly for anyone else? Maybe its just on my mac, but I've tried using it now on 2 different browsers and it never finishes the sim, the java applet just goes blank.
Are you windowing in and out of WoW, or another graphics intensive program? I have no idea why, but if you do that Yo's sim craps out and does exactly what you just said. It can go all blank, freeze up the entire window, or cause the field area to take on a screen shot of whatever was there on the screen before. When I run his sim I either go afk, read, or surf the net until it finishes. I can't go into WoW while it's running.
#3780SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Yo's sim is not multithreaded, e.g. ui does not react while running the calculations.
If you're already running some highly cpu intensive program like wow (wow behaves badly with cpu usage) the sim might take ages to react etc.
#3781SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Rob
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] / Weapon Expertise Adjustment discussion follows:

Before, the belt was granting 6 weapon skill, which translated into a bit over 3% white hit.
Now, it is granting 6 expertise, which translates into 1.5% dodge reduction and 1.5% parry reduction.

In a raid environment, the parry reduction will be largely useless as we will be attacking from behind. However, in the event that you are forced to attack from the front (RSTS ability causes boss to turn, tank repositioning, void-zone type AoE on floor, etc.) parry reduction should be quite nice. Increased damage output and you will lessen the possibility of anyone dying to a hasted swing timer resulting from a parry.

Dodge reduction will be useless against bosses that are constantly casting (e.g. Shade of Aran, High Astromancer Solarian) because mobs cannot dodge while casting, but fairly useful against mobs that do not cast or only cast instant spells. Mobs can dodge attacks from behind and weapon expertise is now a reasonable way to reduce these dodges. If weapon expertise is found to affect yellow damage as well as white damage, and if it adds to the chance to "Hit" rather than merely raising the hit cap, it should still be a good use of item budget for enhancement shamans. Additionally, items such as [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] with dagger rating now have merely expertise, so some gain can be had there.

As an example, let's assume that expertise works how we think it does (affects both white and yellow attacks; converts dodges and parries to hits). The Belt of One-Hundred Deaths used to give me 3% white hit rating (affecting ~50% of my damage); now it will give me 1.5% increased white damage and 1.5% increased WF and SS damage (affecting ~90% of my damage). It's probably an oversimplification, but it looks like a minor nerf: before I would get at most a 1.5% damage increase from the weapon skill on the belt, now I get at most a 1.35% damage increase from the expertise on the belt. (I am intentionally ignoring the effects of critical strikes in this analysis.)

I also happen to wear Shoulderpads of the Stranger, so I will have 8 expertise, resulting in a 2% dodge reduction. Theoretically, the net effect of this may be a buff (2% * 90% of damage = 1.8% damage increase, up from 1.5% in 2.2.)

We still don't know three things:
  1. Whether or not Expertise is working as intended (appropriately reducing dodge and parry chance). It is believed that the parry reduction supposedly granted by weapon skill was not working as intended, and if the expertise code was copied from the weapon skill code, it may not be functioning correctly.
  2. Whether or not Expertise is intended to affect yellow damage. So far, our assumption is that it is, but we do not have any evidence to prove this is correct.
  3. How Expertise's dodge and parry reduction affect the one-roll hit table and/or two-roll attack system. Possibilities include:
  • The most logical functionality would be that expertise reduces the number of dodges and parries while simultaneously increasing the number of hits.
  • However, it could be that rather than being converted to "Hit", "Dodge" and "Parry" are converted to "Miss". This would make Expertise far, far less valuable than Weapon Skill for enhancement shamans and essentially obsolete the stat.
  • Another possibility is that rather than being converted to "Hit", "Dodge" and "Parry" are removed from the table. If you don't follow me, I am saying that in this scenario, the percentage of "Hits" would increase as a number of total swings but the ratio of "Hits" to "Crits" would not change. For example, a character with 25% combined miss/dodge/parry and 75% combined hit/crit/glance that equipped items totaling 10 expertise would then have 20% miss/dodge/parry and 75% hit/crit/glance. Obviously these do not sum to 100% so the true numbers become 21% miss/dodge/parry and 79% hit/crit/glance. I realize this is a terribly tortured explanation without any tables to show what I mean, so if you don't get this, just ignore it for now.


TL;DR Summary:
  • It looks like the conversion of Weapon Skill to Expertise has slightly nerfed the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths, but overall it remains a decent use of item budget, and items that previously granted dagger skill may now be good choices for enhancement shamans.
  • Extensive testing will be needed to determine the true effects of expertise and reveal if this initial theory proves correct. We must determine if expertise affects yellow attacks and if it increases the number of hits or merely raises the hit cap. If it does not affect yellow attacks or if it merely raises the hit cap, expertise will not be a good use of item budget.
  • Weapon type considerations are no longer relevant for anyone except Orcs. It remains unknown if the 1% crit racial ability outweighs the inherent superiority of Syphon and Dragonstrike to Rising Tide and Wicked Edge, respectively.

Last edited by Rob : 10/13/07 at 6:55 PM.
#3782SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Stigmata
It gripes me that Rogues and Warriors get "free" Weapon skill and I assume free expertise when the patch goes live. It makes it annoying to be required to have to use items such as belt of one hundred deaths or the gloves from alar or even the shoulders.

This reminds me of the mail gloves every dps warrior used to wear back in Naxx, because of the glancing thing even though they were not intended to be used in such a manor.

I realise all classes can't have the same talents, but it again is something that as a melee class we should have access to without having to get a specific item, especially since all the items are now in shit instances that most end game guilds dont even frequent. My guild could not go into TK/SSC now purely because no one wants to waste 3+ hours on getting 15 void crystals and hoping the odd random piece that it useful will drop.

Last edited by Stigmata : 10/13/07 at 7:20 PM.
#3783SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Rogues for sure are getting their +10 weapon skill converted directly to +10 expertise. I'm not sure on the Warrior situation as I think the talents were moved around. I believe that the expertise from talents is going to be in the Prot tree, which might mean that DPS warriors won't pick that talent.

Weapon Expertise would be a great replacement for the "Toughness" talent, or possibly the "Improved Weapon Totems" talent, which is not wholly useless but definitely underpowered compared to most talents that deep in the tree.

Overall, though, this seems like an itemization issue rather than a talents issue. Maybe they could replace our T6 MP5 with expertise!
#3784SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Overall, though, this seems like an itemization issue rather than a talents issue. Maybe they could replace our T6 MP5 with expertise!
Wishful thinking sadly
#3785SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
This reminds me of the mail gloves every dps warrior used to wear back in Naxx, because of the glancing thing even though they were not intended to be used in such a manor.
Sup Edgemaster's Handguards.

I've been submitting feedback for t6 trying to explain why mp/5 is not good, I doubt it'll do anything but I would applaud anyone else who does the same.
#3786SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Difforgazm
Again, not sure if this is a silly question, but it was stated that until 100 Deaths was tested with its new stats, that Boneweave Girdle - Items - World of Warcraft was the second best belt.

How would Don Alejandro's Money Belt - Items - World of Warcraft compare to this? with 2 sockets, it seems like the obvious choice with BT or JC only gems.

Again, sorry if this has already been asked, but i searched and couldnt find it.
#3787SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I've been submitting feedback for t6 trying to explain why mp/5 is not good, I doubt it'll do anything but I would applaud anyone else who does the same.
Did the same on the eu forums here
#3788SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Difforgazm: please read "VIII.2 Itemization – Using Stat Weights" of the first post. There lies your answer about the two belts, after using a calculator.
#3789SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
I made some tickets about the stats on t6, whatever good it will do.
#3790SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I've been submitting feedback for t6 trying to explain why mp/5 is not good, I doubt it'll do anything but I would applaud anyone else who does the same.
I did in the thread Eyonix was looking at, but based on what he was saying, I think it's a lost cause.
#3791SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Because this patch is making a lot of changes to the shaman talents, now would probably be an excellent time for every shaman that reads this thread to make feedback on the PTR.

As Rob suggested above, if several hundred of us (or more? who knows how many are reading this thread) gave feedback stating that Toughness or Anticipation should be changed to Weapon Expertise, maybe we'd have a shot of getting it.
#3792SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Vim
With the new enchant in ZA, I wanted to compare it to Mongoose, but need someone to test my math. From what Wowhead shows, it has the same duration (15 sec) with no apparent ppm as well. Assuming 1 AGI = 2 AEP, Haste = 1.48, and Armor Pen. = .25 then Mongoose = 240 AEP from agility and 46.65 AEP from Haste (2% haste = 31.52 rating) = 286.65 AEP. Exectioner is 840 armor penetration = 210 AEP. Am I correct in this math? I understand that my personal AEP will change with my gear, and Armor Penetration may become more valuable as my gear changes.


On another note, AEP has helped me a lot while comparing armor, but I was wondering if there was a formulae used when comparing weapons. Since there is more to a weapon than the stats and gem slot, is there a way to assign a value to the difference in DPS? Assigning a value of 14 AP = 1 DPS doesnt seem correct to me as it is a huge AEP difference between weapons, and seems inflated in comparison to the AEP difference in pieces of armor. Id rather run it through a simulator, but my system is a bit dodgy atm, and Yo! isnt working because of that.

Last edited by Vim : 10/14/07 at 3:10 AM. Reason: spelling
#3793SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Speaking of badge gear, has any shaman checked if there is any shaman only gear for sale? As i think druid was the one who recorded first sightings and therefor there was a druid only piece for sale.
#3794SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3darkInertia
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] / Weapon Expertise Adjustment discussion follows:

Before, the belt was granting 6 weapon skill, which translated into a bit over 3% white hit.
Now, it is granting 6 expertise, which translates into 1.5% dodge reduction and 1.5% parry reduction.

In a raid environment, the parry reduction will be largely useless as we will be attacking from behind. However, in the event that you are forced to attack from the front (RSTS ability causes boss to turn, tank repositioning, void-zone type AoE on floor, etc.) parry reduction should be quite nice. Increased damage output and you will lessen the possibility of anyone dying to a hasted swing timer resulting from a parry.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe that PVE mobs (bosses at the very least) can parry from behind; it is converted into a "miss" (or a "dodge", i forget) in the combat log, but mobs still get their parry chance even when attacked from behind.
#3795SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Do not think so, i see parry when i am parried which certainly seems to be a lot higher than 5%.
#3796SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3darkInertia
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Do not think so, i see parry when i am parried which certainly seems to be a lot higher than 5%.
You see "parry" when you're attacking a mob from behind?
#3797SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Vim View Post
With the new enchant in ZA, I wanted to compare it to Mongoose, but need someone to test my math. From what Wowhead shows, it has the same duration (15 sec) with no apparent ppm as well. Assuming 1 AGI = 2 AEP, Haste = 1.48, and Armor Pen. = .25 then Mongoose = 240 AEP from agility and 46.65 AEP from Haste (2% haste = 31.52 rating) = 286.65 AEP. Exectioner is 840 armor penetration = 210 AEP. Am I correct in this math? I understand that my personal AEP will change with my gear, and Armor Penetration may become more valuable as my gear changes.
That was already said in executioneer vs mongoose testing thread, Since warriors and shamans don't gain ap from agility, only haste part of mongoose proc give us fixed dps increase and crit part from agility may vary dependant on rng. Also i think that armor penetration is a bit undervalued in op. According to raid bosses armor thread -840 armor is over 5% more dps on fully debufed boss mob.

Originally Posted by darkInertia View Post
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe that PVE mobs (bosses at the very least) can parry from behind; it is converted into a "miss" (or a "dodge", i forget) in the combat log, but mobs still get their parry chance even when attacked from behind.

Mobs cant parry from behind. If it would so, tanks instagibs would occur too often.
Many boss mobs have around 10% parry, much higher than usual mobs.
#3798SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kirion
double post, delete please
#3799SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Originally Posted by darkInertia View Post
You see "parry" when you're attacking a mob from behind?
No, i see parry when i am parried.

EDIT: Noticed this thread has over 500k views :P
#3800SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bragor
Theres a new trinket dropping in ZA that might be the 2nd best trinket in game atm.

[Berserker's Call]

Doing the Math : 90 AEP + (360*20/120) = 90 + 60 = 150 AEP

Making it the 2nd best trinket after the DST.

Something not right here.
#3801SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
Theres a new trinket dropping in ZA that might be the 2nd best trinket in game atm.

[Berserker's Call]

Doing the Math : 90 AEP + (360*20/120) = 90 + 60 = 150 AEP

Making it the 2nd best trinket after the DST.

Something not right here.
Blizzard have always been shit when it comes to trinkets. DST being a prime example in tbc and Rejuv Gem or Nelth Tear etc in vanilla wow.
#3802SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Well, that trinket is 150 AEP always as it only gives AP which is base of AEP values. Other trinkets vary depending on the usefulness of the stats they have (Hit, Crit and etc). Values on first post are based on fixed values which will not be right for you. Get your personalised values and then use formulas in first post to see if it still is 2nd best trinket in the game atm for you.
#3803SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Wichtel
Well i love the trinket. You can argue that it should not be better than the BT/Hyjal Trinkets. But I like active trinkets a lot and i am happy that there is a better than Bloodlust Brooch. I can use them when i activate SR/Bloodlust/Drums/Haste Potions or if i we need to get something down fast. It gives me another way to influence my performance and i think it is great to have a very good active trinket.
#3804SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Wichtel View Post
You can argue that it should not be better than the BT/Hyjal Trinkets.
Argue? It is a fact that BT/Hyjal trinkets should be better than a lower level instance, there is no argument in my opinion. Poor itemisation yet again.
#3805SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Actually you can argue that in order to keep interest in less than last instance it is nice incentive to have few pieces of eq in earlier one superior than in currently best one. Also is this out of order powerlist only for shamans or also for rogues/warriors? Unfortunaly rogues and dps warriors are primary target and any anomalies that only apply to us are of lesser importance imo. That last statement is of course my own personal view.
#3806SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Probably stupid question but:
Currently using DST+Dragonstrike.
Macroed SR+Bloodlust trinket.
When using SR macro should I use Haste pots AND Drums of Battle or just SR+Drums and after one minute Haste pots to keep some kind of rotation.

Reading it after myself it seems like a total nonsense ;(
#3807SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
Theres a new trinket dropping in ZA that might be the 2nd best trinket in game atm.

[Berserker's Call]

Doing the Math : 90 AEP + (360*20/120) = 90 + 60 = 150 AEP

Making it the 2nd best trinket after the DST.

Something not right here.
Actually, with my current gear, and using Yo's calculator, I calculated Madness of the Betrayer to be roughly 165 AEP worth. While the trinket is indeed good, it's entirely gear dependant if it indeed becomes the second best trinket or not.
#3808SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
When discussing AEP values, its a worthless discussion if we're all going to compare things based off individualized AEP. It would be better if we used the generalized form, otherwise its like we're discussing physics but we each have a unique value for the acceleration due to gravity.
#3809SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tzenes
has anyone looked at the proc rate for executioner yet?

Would it be worth getting over mongoose?
Would it be worth getting over crusader?

Obviously the more armor pen you have, the higher your aep is for armor pen, so the most useful information would be: what is the average armor pen given by executioner?
#3810SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by tzenes View Post
has anyone looked at the proc rate for executioner yet?

Would it be worth getting over mongoose?
Would it be worth getting over crusader?

Obviously the more armor pen you have, the higher your aep is for armor pen, so the most useful information would be: what is the average armor pen given by executioner?
Rogue DPS spreadsheet has Mongoose/Executioner equal, Executioner being a little higher DPS and Mongoose having more defensive stats. 840 armor from Executioner, assumed same procrate as Mongoose so I don't see why you need an average, just compare the raw numbers. Another thing to keep in mind is haste values are multiplicative.
#3811SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Malan, normally i would agree except in this case all that new trinket gives is AP. Since AP is always 1 as its basis of all other values, some sort of comparison can be made especially to show that it is not necessarily 2nd best trinket.

Tzenes, there is thread in here concerning that somewhere in this site.
#3812SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Malan, normally i would agree except in this case all that new trinket gives is AP. Since AP is always 1 as its basis of all other values, some sort of comparison can be made especially to show that it is not necessarily 2nd best trinket.
My comment was regarding someone else saying that Madness of the Betrayer had a different value for them, not regarding the AP trinket.
#3813SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by darkInertia View Post
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe that PVE mobs (bosses at the very least) can parry from behind; it is converted into a "miss" (or a "dodge", i forget) in the combat log, but mobs still get their parry chance even when attacked from behind.
As far as I have been able to determine, mobs cannot parry from behind*, but can dodge from behind. While I know WoWWiki is far from an authoritative source, I believe that most sims and spreadsheets are currently following the assumptions made in their Attack Table article, and these sims and spreadsheets currently seem to be 99% accurately reproducing game mechanics. If there is evidence to suggest that bosses have an elevated "dodge" or "miss" chance attacking from the rear as compared to the front, I would love to have it brought to my attention.


* The exception being when client and server disagree on the position of the player, which is believed to be the cause of the rare parried Backstab and the like.
#3814SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
My comment was regarding someone else saying that Madness of the Betrayer had a different value for them, not regarding the AP trinket.
That comment I posted was mostly in response to people thinking it would indeed stay the second best trinket in game, I merely posted that to show it is not that black and white.
#3815SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aurvandil
Best relic slot Totem is the [Totem of the Astral Winds] available in heroic Mana Tombs from the first boss. Its a 15 minute clear max, easily farmable.

Patch 2.3 will introduce the [Stonebreaker's Totem]. Wowhead data mining indicates this is a 50% proc rate. With 6 second cooldown shocks, if and only if you are able to maintain a shock on ever cooldown, this relic will be worth a passive 55 Attack power. Astral Winds is still probably the better choice to go with, but if you are unable to get the drop the Stonebreaker can provide a nice filler.
that would be correct except that the attack power gained from stonebreaker's totem applies to all white hits, windfuries, and stormstrikes in that 10 second period. Passive 55 ap, vs 80 ap only on windfuries. I'd take the passive 55 ap as I'm sure I white hit + stormstrike + windfury a lot more than I windfury alone.


lets take 10 second interval, best case scenario with 1.5 weapon speed

during that 10 seconds best case scenario
you white hit 10/1.5 = 6 hits
you stormstrike at the start and at the end hitting with both weapons = 4 hits
you double proc windfury every time the 3 second cooldown is up = 6 hits


with stonebreaker you are gaining 55 ap for 16 hits
with astral winds you are gaining 80 ap for 6 hits

I think its pretty obvious which one I'd take.
#3816SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Rob
Those 6 WF hits are multiplied by 140% if you are correctly specced, though (Elemental Weapons). That may not change the end result of your analysis, but it's important to take everything into consideration.

I also think it's logically wrong to include the SS twice. If you're looking at a 10 second cycle it should only include one Stormstrike.

Realistically, let's suppose everyone is using 2.6 speed weapons, with 100% flurry uptime for a swing speed of 2.0. Then you get 5 white swings in every 10 second period. The best-case scenario for this setup is also one WF proc every 4 seconds. So in a 40 second period there would be 10 WF procs (let's call them all MH, for the sake of argument), 4 SS, 20 MH white swings and 20 OH white swings. We'll say that you have a 15% miss rate on white swings, and that 20% of white swings glance doing 30% less damage, further reducing white damage by an additional 6%.

10*80*1.4*2 = 2240 max AP contribution from Astral Winds in 40 sec period.
10*55*1.4*2+4*55*1.5(SS)+20*55*0.79*1.5(MH+OH)=1540+330+1303.5=3173.5 max AP contribution from Stonebreaker in same 40 sec period.

Ignored: The effect of dodges, parries, blocks, and crits. These should apply consistently to both white and yellow damage.

If Stonebreaker uptime is lower than 50%, reduce the "55" in the second set of equations to 110*uptime.

Overall, I'm going to have to agree with your conclusion that Stonebreaker totem is superior if you shock enough to keep the buff up 50% of the time, but if you only shock enough to keep the buff up 35% of the time or less, Astral Winds is superior.

Last edited by Rob : 10/14/07 at 7:44 PM.
#3817SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Yah I just haven't updated that yet.
#3818SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
BoinKlasik
edit: he'd already done that, I need to learn to re-read stuff.

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 10/14/07 at 8:06 PM. Reason: stupidity
#3819SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
As far as I have been able to determine, mobs cannot parry from behind*, but can dodge from behind.
I can tell you that tonight, Teron Gorefiend parried 4 of my windfuries. FUwindfury noted it.
Teron is a jerk, he turns around to select a target on whom to place shadow of doom.
When he does that, he parries the living daylights out of me, but at least he didn't instantly slaughter our tank.

So while you are fundamentally correct that bosses can not parry from behind, those jerks tend to spin in place while casting one-off spells.
#3820SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Chr
As far as I'm aware, mobs that appear to parry when you are behind them come from mobs that cast abilities on players, even for the most fractional parts of seconds. Things like Void Reaver orbs, Morogrim's water tombs etc. Question is, why can't this be corrected by having the mobs behave similar to Nef's calls, where no targets are needed.
#3821SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Yeah, RSTS (random secondary target selection) abilities can indeed cause parries and sometimes with certain abilities, especially charges, the boss doesn't switch back immediately and the swing timer lines up so that you'll get hit and die, like Al'ar's charge used to. I assume that these abilities are easier to script than things like Nef's class calls, which is why they're used.

You can also parry a boss from behind with the server/client disagreement exception I described above.
#3822SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Nubittos
Yo!'s java applet : Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator Currently under development, may have bugs. This sim will also help create custom AEP values for you based on *your* gear.
Correct me if im wrong, but is this addon doing justice to FT in the offhand ?

my settings are 1600 AP, 15% hit, 28% crit, 2.6 speed MH with WF, and 1.4 speed OH with FT... It says 60ish dps with FT, but does that do it justice ? :s

it hits if I recall right now for about 80 damage or so, and with the increased dmg/heal in patch 2.3 we get that damage increased by a fair amount compared to what it already does... with these stats correct me if im wrong again... (say 1600 AP meaning 1600/3/10 = 53,33 damage/hit. meaning my FT should hit for around 130 damage/hit. Given that I use the gladiators dagger with 1.4 speed in the offhand I should reach nearly 1 hit/second with flurry. (and even faster with BL/trinkets, u name it...)

say we have mongoose on both wpns that will also boost weaponspeeds considerably! Roughly we should get say for instance 150 dps out of this FT, but if u check it out on the addon it says 60 dps with my settings :s

60 dps with 1.4 speed wpn... how is that possible with 130 damage hits and a wpn that on average strikes atleast once/second... som one explain, or tell me its wrong

ps. if I make the OH weaponspeed faster it decreases my DPS, which is ofc rediculous... something MUST be wrong :s

Last edited by Nubittos : 10/15/07 at 7:03 AM.
#3823SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
First, did you turn on the AP->Spellpower flag under Procs & Stuff? In the default setting, the sim is using 2.2 mechanics.

Second, Yo's acknowledged that the AP->Spellpower conversion code in the sim is currently somewhat buggy, but he's on vacation for a bit and doesn't plan to update the sim until Nov 1.
#3824SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nubittos
yeah I did add it

and as I just edited the post above, I made the OH weapon faster and the damage from FT decreased that cant be right ?

EDIT: sry it was an overall decrease in DPS not the FT, but its weird that I change the speed frmo 2.6 to 1.4 and the change in FT damage is like 10% :S
#3825SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Mulgero
What was the average AEP value for RED meta gem using OP AEP values for stats? I remember it been mentioned in some post but couldn't find it anymore.

+12 agi = 24AEP, 3%crit damage ?

*edited* read OP again.. depending of group setup my crit% is between 35-45% in raids so propably average increase would be around 1.5% I guess. I suppose that would translate roughly being ~10dps? whatever that would be in AEP value... 1dps was abot 14AP so 140AEP? Feels like too high value.

Thanks for advance.

Last edited by Mulgero : 10/15/07 at 8:20 AM.
#3826SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Razputin
Remember theres side effects of having a fast OH, such as eating the flurry of ur MH, which in turn impacts ur wf procs. Maybe thats whats affecting ur results.
#3827SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Mulgero View Post
*edited* read OP again.. depending of group setup my crit% is between 35-45% in raids so propably average increase would be around 1.5% I guess. I suppose that would translate roughly being ~10dps? whatever that would be in AEP value... 1dps was abot 14AP so 140AEP?
14 AP is 1 white DPS when you're attacking with only one weapon and before any talents, special attacks, or crits. In other words, 14 AP provides significantly more than 1 DPS to level 70 enhancement shamans, who are dual-wielding, using Stormstrike, proccing Windfury (which is further multiplied by 40% talented correctly), critting ~30% of the time, and have a Weapon Mastery talent that increases all melee damage we deal by 10%.

Nevertheless, even supposing that those things increase our AP->DPS conversion by a factor of 4, you're still getting 12 agility and 35 AP which is more than any other meta can offer.

Last edited by Rob : 10/15/07 at 9:17 AM.
#3828SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nubittos
sry for being this blunt Razputin but ill say as snorkle did on the forum about this and I Quote:

"NO NO NO NO NO" :P

anyways fast weapon eating flurry is the flurry mechanic misunderstood really... a faster weapon will also apply a new flurry so fast of slow weapons your flurry uptime (if you dont count up until first crit of a session) will be the same.. Yes the flurry gets eaten faster you are right, but you are also hitting faster so as said you will also get flurry proc more often

flurry is depending on you critting, not your weaponspeeds.. if flurry was attackspeed for 3 seconds things would be different, but its 3 swings, so speed won't matter... tell me if I don't make sense, however, this should be understandable.

Nubittos
#3829SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mulgero
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Nevertheless, even supposing that those things increase our AP->DPS conversion by a factor of 4, you're still getting 12 agility and 35 AP which is more than any other meta can offer.
Thanks a lot, RED could be valued roughly as 60 AEP, or maybe to be safe 50-55 AEP. Mainly concerned as comparing ZA leather and mail head pieces against T4 with RED as those don't have meta gem slots. Seems that both ZA options are upgrade to T4 with RED.

T4 2p set bonus is decent for full melee groups compared to upgrade I would get replacing all my T4 pieces with ZA+heroic pieces...
#3830SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Nubittos View Post
sry for being this blunt Razputin but ill say as snorkle did on the forum about this and I Quote:

"NO NO NO NO NO" :P

anyways fast weapon eating flurry is the flurry mechanic misunderstood really... a faster weapon will also apply a new flurry so fast of slow weapons your flurry uptime (if you dont count up until first crit of a session) will be the same.. Yes the flurry gets eaten faster you are right, but you are also hitting faster so as said you will also get flurry proc more often

flurry is depending on you critting, not your weaponspeeds.. if flurry was attackspeed for 3 seconds things would be different, but its 3 swings, so speed won't matter... tell me if I don't make sense, however, this should be understandable.

Nubittos
Flurry is actually dependent on weapon speeds, even if it's just a small amount. This seems to get overlooked by 95% of players (stat made up on the spot).

From my post in the Blizzard forums:

===================================
Think of the following example:

You are dual wielding a 5.0 speed weapons (I know, that's ridiculous, but it helps illustrate the point)

How many times in 10 seconds can you proc a flurry state?
2 - stormstrike
2 - windfury (say we only get one windfury in this 10 second scenario)
4 - white hits.

So, we have 8 attacks that can proc flurry.

How many can use up flurry charges? 4.

So, we have 2 flurry-proc'ing attacks for every flurry consuming attack. You will be close to perma flurried in this case.

Now, assume you are using 1.0 speed weapons. Say we get two windfuries instead of one (just to make it clear that even with more flurry-generating attacks your flurry % can go down).

How many times in 10 seconds can you proc a flurry state?
2 - stormstrike
4 - windfury
20 - white hits.

So, we have 26 attacks that can proc flurry.

How many can use up flurry charges? 20.

So, we have 1.3 flurry-proc'ing attacks for every flurry consuming attack. This is a much worse production to consumption ratio than with the slower weapons.

Simply put, with faster weapons, your flurry uptime will decrease because the bonus flurry-attacks of SS and WF are a smaller percentage of the number of flurry-proc-capable moves.
=================================

Hope that helps.
#3831SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
OP updated with Rob's analysis of Weapon Expertise and Panny's analysis of the Stonebreaker's Totem.
#3832SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
OP updated with Rob's analysis of Weapon Expertise and Panny's analysis of the Stonebreaker's Totem.
you can probably update it adding as OH weapon fool's bane and the decapitator, since they finally decided to make them one-hand next patch

EDIT: nm i should learn to read i didn't saw the little addendum, ignore me!
#3833SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Oh yah I did that too.
#3834SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
I can verify the results on the stonebreaker totem. My test was slightly different since I had 6 second shocks. However I can say for certain that never once did the buff get reapplied. So there is definitely a cooldown in the range of 10-12 seconds.

After 20 minutes in blasted lands my uptime was in the low 50's %wise which is pretty nice.

Other observations.
Our mana burden has dropped dramatically. Spamming SS and shocks with water shield and mana totem running pretty much meant my mana never dropped. Cheap shocks, improved mana spring and water shield (amazing water shield) was more than enough. I did not even use Shamanistic rage. If you are not getting hit water shield is really nice but not amazing. If you are grinding mobs though it is truly amazing.

Also for newer shaman or ones that forget the old resto days it is important to realize that your totem strength gets determined when it drops. Our AP fluctuates wildly at times but if possible you want to wait, at the very least, until you have strength totem, battle shout and unleashed rage up prior to dropping searing and healing stream. It makes a very big difference.
#3835SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by berg View Post
Also for newer shaman or ones that forget the old resto days it is important to realize that your totem strength gets determined when it drops. Our AP fluctuates wildly at times but if possible you want to wait, at the very least, until you have strength totem, battle shout and unleashed rage up prior to dropping searing and healing stream. It makes a very big difference.
Searing recalculates on every cast afaik, but your advice is true for healing stream.
#3836SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Theories aside. Copy pasting what I have just posted in euro forums:

Those are in NO WAY ACCURATE NUMBERS
It was just a quick test to judge a rough comparison of slow oh with WF vs fast oh with FT

OH used:
Twinblade of Mastery - Items - World of Warcraft - (fast) 1.4
High Warlord's Cleaver - Items - World of Warcraft - (slow) 2.6

those weapons have same nominal dps. but HW cleaver has some budget spent into resilence
while twin blade has expertise rating which effects mh too especilly fighting from front of the mob.

Test target: Servant of ... blasted lands immortal mob.
Test duration: roughly 4 minutes each
Fighting techinque: soe and goa up full time. storm strike used every cd

AP before equipping offhand: 1414
Crit rate before equipping offhand: 26.78
Hit rating before equipping offhand: 19.21
MH speed: 2.7
MH enchant: mongoose.
Outside buffs used: none

DPS with slow/slow: 845,6
DPS with slow./fast: 862,4

Slow mh with fast oh with flametongue came ahead. TBh I am surprised. I was expecting otherwise. At first slow/fast was worse but with flurry up and mongoose proccing it started to gain dps fast.
It in no way reflects raid situation
let me say it again:
It in now way reflects raid situation. Since: raid boss will have a ton of debuffs affecting WF and FT in different way. Partial resists full resists etc will skew the result. I dont even want to try to theorycraft precisly enough to reflect all the changes to the results i posted. It just shows that it might be more vialble combo in 2.3. More and more precises testing would be required. Just dont disenchant your fangs of vashij yet.
I am surprised to say the least. My quick test have shown fast oh with FT to be better
#3837SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Is there already a very good quality lightweight watershield mod? If not, I"ll build one into DisqoDice.
#3838SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Oteb View Post
I am surprised to say the least. My quick test have shown fast oh with FT to be better
You were fighting with the mob facing you, which means parries. The mob is significantly lower than you which means you were not having FT resisting at the proper rate.
#3839SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You were fighting with the mob facing you, which means parries. The mob is significantly lower than you which means you were not having FT resisting at the proper rate.
I am aware of that. I was still expecting different results tbh.
Besides I miss like 14% resist rate but I also miss 15% improved scorch. There are just tons of other things that differ one on one vs level 55 to raid situation.
Unfortunetly alone I cant test it any better.
#3840SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I would actually say that your results are to be expected actually, not surprising at all. Because of Dodge and Parry you're taking an overall physical DPS loss over your test, whereas FT will have almost no resists whatsoever.

We really need to stop using Blasted Lands mobs for testing, the Halaa ones would be a better estimate, although I realize the inherent difficulties in using them.
#3841SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Another worthwhile note is that while your OH damage will scale with WF, but your FT will not change at all. In other words with WF both weapon dps and WF dps will improve as weapon dps improves, but with FT only weapon dps will improve.
#3842SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
I found that on trash in ZA on PTR I was frequently topping 1100 DPS with Flametongue in offhand with a Ced's Carver and Windfury on mainhand with a Syphon. Amazed, I tried it out at the next boss fight, and got less than stellar results, barely topping 800 DPS. For comparison I was doing 850-900 DPS in the same situation with my normal WF setup. Group buffs were my totems + anything a prot paladin gives (nothing?) + a prot warrior who was most likely using commanding shout. I will try to get more testing in ZA with Flametongue this coming weekend when we run it some more. I wish I had a higher DPS offhand weapon to use, but the Ced's Carver just randomly dropped in ZA while we were running it and I long ago disenchanted my Malchazeen and Emerald Ripper.
#3843SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Flametongue performs significantly better against +1 and +2 targets than +3. The resist rate skyrockets from 6% against a +2 to 17% against a +3, which is the main reason that Flametongue is so horrible in the context of raiding. People see comparable numbers from WF to FT on trash or while grinding and assume that these results will carry over to boss fights, and this is absolutely not the case.
#3844SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Perhaps that's something to explore then - would it better to have a kit of weapons, fast OH for trash and slow OH for bosses?
#3845SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Flametongue performs significantly better against +1 and +2 targets than +3. The resist rate skyrockets from 6% against a +2 to 17% against a +3, which is the main reason that Flametongue is so horrible in the context of raiding. People see comparable numbers from WF to FT on trash or while grinding and assume that these results will carry over to boss fights, and this is absolutely not the case.
I still don't understand why FT (and FB) works of spell hit and crit, and paladin seals work of melee hit and crit. Maybe its worth to post suggestion on official forums?
#3846SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Yah that bugs me too. It falls in the Enhancement talent tree, it should probably be based around stats that we use.
#3847SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Yuma
Removed this comment, as it was based on a misread of a Wowhead post.

Last edited by Yuma : 10/15/07 at 1:02 PM.
#3848SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Kirion View Post
I still don't understand why FT (and FB) works of spell hit and crit, and paladin seals work of melee hit and crit. Maybe its worth to post suggestion on official forums?
Only Seal of Command (and Blood I guess, but it blows so who cares) works this way; Seal of Righteousness is a normal spell hit check. Avenger's Shield also uses melee mechanics, but Paladins get hosed over just as badly as Shamans do in this respect.
#3849SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Yuma View Post
Since double Mongoose is so popular these days, I thought the following post on Wowhead in regards to the Elixir of Major Agility was interesting, considering we it listed just after a Flask of Relentless Assault on the main page:



Assuming this is accurate, and it applies, should we still rank the Elixir of Major Agility as superior to a Fel Strength Elixir for non-flasked encounters?
I believe they are refering to Elixir of Mongoose and not Mongoose enchant.
#3850SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Is there already a very good quality lightweight watershield mod? If not, I"ll build one into DisqoDice.
I don't think there is, and even if there was, it's better to have all-in-one, i love your mod, makes me a happy twister!
#3876SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3ChaguraED
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris] View Post
Can you change relics in combat? I'd say no, but other classes equip weapons in that slot, so not sure.

I am Fairly sure you can swap totems in combat, as many resto shaman talk about swapping their healing totems based on the type of heal they're casting (chain heal vs healing wave)

If this is correct then that would certainly be a good macro to run
#3877SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
You can change Relic's in combat, changing them triggers the GCD (only in combat) but changing them does not respect the GCD. To put it another way, you can macro together a spell with a cast time (Such as Healing Wave) and then equip the Totem of Healing Rains, and it will work, because you are equipping the totem after the spell is cast (during GCD) but the spell is going to use the totem when the spell is finished casting.

Combining this totem with a shock won't work, because the shock is instant, so you'd need to equip the totem before casting the shock, and that swap would incur the GCD, making the shock unable to cast until the GCD is over.
Ah, thank you.
#3878SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3PhyerFly
Just wanted to drop by and add that Enhancement Shaman will have two new slow off-hand weapons options in 2.3 that are worth noticing. The following weapons were originally main-hand only and will be changed to one-hand when the patch hits.

[Fool's Bane] (from Illhoof in kara)
Fool's Bane - Items - World of Warcraft

[The Decapitator] (from Prince in kara)
The Decapitator - Items - World of Warcraft
#3879SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
can you add to the first post the best epic gems to use from hyjal/bt?
#3880SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rhagok
Well by the time you are there you should probably know which gems to use, not that it would be the same ones anyway (all strengt, strength + crit ... )
#3881SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3falonub
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
can you add to the first post the best epic gems to use from hyjal/bt?
Same as regular but the epic version,

[Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Bold Crimson Spinel]
[Inscribed Pyrestone]

If people have a hard time figuring that out :P
#3882SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Azaranth View Post
Disquette: I use Power Auras with 2 notifications.

1. Notify me when I have "Invigorated"
2. Notify me when I do not have "Lightning Shield / Water Shield" - combat only

That really does the job nicely. If you incorporate this into DisqoDice, be sure to have an off switch DD is a nice mod though. I have a hunch that I'm going to start mixing Fire Nova Totems into my dps rotations, since I'll have a ridiculous abundance of mana sitting around unused. You might eventually end up adding a Fire Nova Totem Cast / Cooldown bar below the shocks bar. At this point, I'm just playing Aztrodamus and looking into the future though.
I use Power Auras for alot of things:
-Invigorated
-Proc buffs such as Haste, (old) Hourglass, with timers so I know if it's worth popping Trinket/Bloodlust/Drums/Pot/what-have-you
-To check if I am in range of my buffing totems
-For debuffs such as MS (PvP)
-For HoTs ticking on me so I know I don't have to waste time healing myself
-To show if I don't have an elemental shield of some kind
-To show if I don't have a Shout while in combat

I can't recommend it enough.

On the subject of relic switching: it's not worth it for a melee class. Since switching relics will invoke the GCD, it means no auto-attacks then. It's difficult to time the GCD in between two swings, especially with all the haste effects we have occuring. It might actually completely reset the swing timer!

Malan: one thing you might want to add to the Stonebreaker analysis in the first post is that the observed uptime is around 50% with a 10 second cooldown between procs. It might be difficult for some to digest the results just based on the maths without the underlying premises. And then we'd get two months of people posting in this thread asking which is better: Astral Winds or Stonebreaker.
#3883SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cruelty
Im thinking on what spec would be the best overall dps for a raiding enh shaman once 2.3 is live.

SO few things. On the talent calc make some mental changes (at work so didnt look for a 2.3 talent calc).

2Handed weapons in 2.3 is Focused casting- Chance on Crit shocks cost 60% less

Mental quickness is the same as well as in 2.3 with 3 points -30% of your AP = spelldamage and healing

First is whats commonly known as the suicide spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pros-

Increased fire totem damage
Faster shocks 5 sec shocks down from 6secs
Increased shock damage (5% increase)
Slightly cheaper shocks.

Cons vs enh resto spec (below) -

3% less hit
No extended totem range
Normal cost totems
Standard Heal speed
no healing focus


Enh/Resto spec

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pros -

Faster Healing wave
Cheaper totems
increased totem range
Healing focus (lol 14%)
Chance to hit increased by 3%

Cons Vs Suicide spec (1st link) -

Slower shocks
Standard fire totem damage
Standard shock damage & cost

Now my thoughts are that the suicide spec will push out more damage with the improved shocks and fire totem damage, especially with the new mental quickness.
My main concern is the 3% to hit is a big loss that would nerf melee damage to counteract the extra damage gained from the better shock/Fire totem damage.
Mana should not be a issue with focused state and Shamanistic rage.
#3884SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Panny as I cba to set up PowerAuras myself, would you be so kind and put a config file somewhere to download?

Thanks!
#3885SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
panny
Originally Posted by Neithan View Post
Panny as I cba to set up PowerAuras myself, would you be so kind and put a config file somewhere to download?

Thanks!
Sure, I'll do it when I get home if the server's aren't down tonight (in 7 hours or so).

Really though, it's not hard to use, and you won't figure out what my auras are configured for.

Last edited by panny : 10/15/07 at 11:36 PM.
#3886SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Cruelty View Post
Now my thoughts are that the suicide spec will push out more damage with the improved shocks and fire totem damage, especially with the new mental quickness.
My main concern is the 3% to hit is a big loss that would nerf melee damage to counteract the extra damage gained from the better shock/Fire totem damage.
Mana should not be a issue with focused state and Shamanistic rage.
You are not the first to post this idea here and sadly, probably not the last.
#3887SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Cruelty View Post
Im thinking on what spec would be the best overall dps for a raiding enh shaman once 2.3 is live.

SO few things. On the talent calc make some mental changes (at work so didnt look for a 2.3 talent calc).

2Handed weapons in 2.3 is Focused casting- Chance on Crit shocks cost 60% less

Mental quickness is the same as well as in 2.3 with 3 points -30% of your AP = spelldamage and healing

First is whats commonly known as the suicide spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pros-

Increased fire totem damage
Faster shocks 5 sec shocks down from 6secs
Increased shock damage (5% increase)
Slightly cheaper shocks.

Cons vs enh resto spec (below) -

3% less hit
No extended totem range
Normal cost totems
Standard Heal speed
no healing focus


Enh/Resto spec

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pros -

Faster Healing wave
Cheaper totems
increased totem range
Healing focus (lol 14%)
Chance to hit increased by 3%

Cons Vs Suicide spec (1st link) -

Slower shocks
Standard fire totem damage
Standard shock damage & cost

Now my thoughts are that the suicide spec will push out more damage with the improved shocks and fire totem damage, especially with the new mental quickness.
My main concern is the 3% to hit is a big loss that would nerf melee damage to counteract the extra damage gained from the better shock/Fire totem damage.
Mana should not be a issue with focused state and Shamanistic rage.
Reverberation and Concussion are about a 45 dps increase by my math. I'm willing to bet Nature's Guidance is worth more than 45 dps. I'm sure someone could figure that out for us pretty quickly. Don't forget that Nature's Guidance improves spell hit in addition to melee hit.

Convection is a terrible talent for us now, and will be even worse after the patch. If you're dead set on going elemental I would suggest putting those points into Elemental Warding.

Enhancement/restoration is clearly the superior spec to me, even damage-wise. Even if it wasn't, I would still put my extra points into restoration because I'm just not going to play this game without Totemic Mastery. Isn't it weird how every time someone posts this enhancement/elemental vs. enhancement/restoration theory they never include any math at all? Somewhat telling, I think.

Last edited by Sebudai : 10/15/07 at 11:56 PM. Reason: wrong talent name...
#3888SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cruelty
Malan I apoligise for rehashing old cr@p thats been posted many times.

Im just interested in the changes in 2.3 with the added spelldamage and mana being less of a issue from focused casting. People seem to be discussing the viability of Flamtongue with a fast weapon at this point.

Keep inmind Im not talking about specs pre 2.3 but afterwards as I know the enh/resto spec is the best way to roll.
Seeing I have finally gotten my toons transfered to the Pve Ptr I will test out the different specs on the immortal mobs in blastedlands. If your interested I will put up any findings.
I realise that the Blastedlands mobs are not the best things to test on but without a tank, healer and a couple of people in halaa its as good as I got.
#3889SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
They finally changed our Arena glove bonus from a harder hitting Lightning Shield to the old Elemental gloves bonus: +5 yards on Shocks. Pretty nice, as I was seriously considering using the four pieces of Enhancement Arena gear with the Elemental gloves solely for the extra 5 yard range. On the other hand, I'm sad that I never got to try out SUPER LIGHTNING SHIELD with the spellpower changes.

Edit: Still not sure about the same old four piece bonus though (-1 second off SS cooldown).
#3890SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mextro
And now the big question, when are they going to remove mp5 completely? 2.2 patch it's still 'meh' and you barely notice anything from the gains, and next patch we will barely get out of mana.

When are they going to replace it with armor penetration?
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3falonub
New 2.6 Speed Arena weapons released. Not too shabby. To take strain off of mmo-champion, I image shacked these. And cheers at 3 of our pieces having +hit



#3892SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
rava
Originally Posted by falonub View Post
New 2.6 Speed Arena weapons released. Not too shabby. To take strain off of mmo-champion, I image shacked these. And cheers at 3 of our pieces having +hit



Still showing more DPS with Dragonstrike than a S3 2.6 weapon . Gap is getting more narrow though, less than 20 dps! Also, out of curiosity I tried S3 2.6 in the OH and came out 20 dps ahead of DS/Syphon. DS/S3 looks like it might be the best combination out there. Alsssssssso, 2.6 offhands are only 1125 arena points, amazing.

Last edited by rava : 10/16/07 at 3:47 AM.
#3893SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Wow, this looks great. Now they just need to remove the damn mp5 from the tier sets and item wise I'm a happy shaman. And I'm very promising, because until now, they made just every adjustment we called for.
#3894SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mano
Originally Posted by Oteb View Post
Did the test vs halaa guards.

Completly pointless results. Without tank and longer dps periods no way to test it. IF anyone wants to tank for me on either of Euro test realms plz let me know.
I can either offer you a bear in good blue stuff (assuming he's copied over) as tank or my shaman in T4 stuff as healer on the EU PVE PTR.
#3895SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Is there no requirement on arena rating to use the new weapons?
#3896SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Rating requirements should be for buying only, therefor none on weapons themselves.
#3897SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Shakkha
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Rating requirements should be for buying only, therefor none on weapons themselves.
well it's written on the shoulders if you look at it.

It's mostly something that has been overlooked i guess.

That weapon is quite nice, probably the best OH now, thanks to the complete lack of any iLvel 151 one hand useable by us shamans.

The armor isn't really impressive however more sta sure, but it's still very bad dpswise you pay a high price for this sta/resiliance.
It comes down to hitting like a truck and being squishy, or add a bit more survability, and hit like a wet noddle!

Last edited by Shakkha : 10/16/07 at 4:42 AM.
#3898SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ujai
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
Is there no requirement on arena rating to use the new weapons?
My thoughts exactly. Paired with
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Alsssssssso, 2.6 offhands are only 1125 arena points, amazing.
I'll probably have to go dance around a little.
#3899SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
I modified your thing a bit, SentinelBorg:
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
The mp5 on this item is a waste of item budget for enhancement shamans. With the new talent Elemental Focus, the new and improved Water Shield and the powerful mana-regen ability Shamanistic Rage, an enhancement shaman will not go out of mana easily, even with a full shock rotation, some heals and totems. So please remove the mp5 and put more melee-focused stats on the item instead, such as agi, str, hit, crit, expertise, or armor pierce. Expertise especially would be a very beneficial stat since we have no talents which help with dodge/parry reduction, unlike rogues or warriors.

T6 set bonuses: The 2pc setbonus is very weak. Shamans already have 3 talents (Elemental Focus, Mental Quickness, Concussion), that decrease the mana costs of shocks. Also the 4pc bonus is the only non-scaling (%) T6 4pc bonus in the game.

Ideas for improvement:
- remove the 2pc bonus
- move the 4pc bonus to the 2pc slot
- make a new 4pc bonus (for example, 2% more AP from "Unleashed Rage")
Thoughts?

Edit to add: I also submitted this on PTR. For anyone curious how to easily do this, just use AtlasLoot or having someone link a T6 piece to you. Alt-left click the item link, then click "fill out a survey". Bam.
Still no post at the US shaman boards!
#3900SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Originally Posted by berg View Post
Pure speculation on the Ashtongue talisman.
Behind the scenes stormstrike is likely implemented as the 2 swings and then any successful hit attempts to apply the stormstrike debuff.

If each of these affects is granted a 50% chance to apply the effect then you get...
- 5% of stormstrikes get dodged and result in nothing.
- 95% both swings hit, both swings apply stormstrike (does not stack.) This results in 4 coinflips to apply the buff.

4 coin flips = 15/16 = 93.75%
93.75% * 0.95(non dodges) = 89% proc rate which is our observed rate.


I am still 3 weeks out from the trinket but a simple way to test if this is what is happening is to have someone who has the trinket put on a 2 hander (or staff if they have no 2H talents) and go test the proc rate. If it works the way I am guessing a 2 hander should see a proc rate around 71%.

Our class is so weird.
sorry if i've missed any new developments but is this still the case, on the PTR 2.3? does it still consider dual-weild stormstrike as 2 attacks thus giving it a much higher procrate than 50%?
#3901SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Wait... 1125 points? I can buy 2 :I. They can't not have a rating requirement, all the other weapons do o.O
#3902SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
yes, I believe all season 3 weapons have a 1850 rating requirement. time to pair up with a warlock..
#3903SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
When viewed at the Vendor, the tooltip for the item says "Requires 1850 personal arena rating". If you then shift-click the item to produce an item link, the new tooltip for the item will not show the arena rating requirement. ie, when you are wearing the items on your char, they will no longer show the rating requirement, since its not required to wear them, just to buy them. Savvy?
#3904SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3xereva
Would be nice if they also added a season 1 and 2 slow offhand... but i guess that will not happen....
#3905SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by xereva View Post
Would be nice if they also added a season 1 and 2 slow offhand... but i guess that will not happen....

You mean like... [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]?
#3906SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3xereva
You mean like... [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]?
No, i mean like the [...Gladiator's Left Render] or [...Gladiator's Chopper].

Which cost less then half of what the one-handers cost... (e.g. 1125 arena points vs 2625 arena points). For the 'older' arena weapons we only have the expensive option if we need it for our offhand... and the new one needs 1850 arena rating...
#3907SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
he said offhand, which costs a lot less points to buy than a one-hander.
#3908SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
This is a nice change for sure. These new offhands will save us all 1500 pts. Some early playing around with yo's yields (for me) a ~2% upgrade over 2 supremus hammers which is our current best combo. Now I can buy them both on week 1
#3909SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Originally Posted by berg View Post
This is a nice change for sure. These new offhands will save us all 1500 pts. Some early playing around with yo's yields (for me) a ~2% upgrade over 2 supremus hammers which is our current best combo. Now I can buy them both on week 1
Is it really for you or could they in actual fact be better than them in general?
anyone able to confirm? can't check right now myself.
#3910SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Did someone recalculate the Dragonspine Thropy PPM and uptime values after 2.2 patch? I can't really beleive it's still the best trinket for us as it drops from a T4 instance and it was nerfed in 3 ways with 2.2 (haste nerf, ppm nerf(?), internal cooldown added)
Dragonspine Trophy Analysis
In the end of this thread it's a bit confusing that it's still the best trinket for us or not. Some say it's 1 PPM now and in the first post of this thread we assume 1.5 PPM.
#3911SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by berg View Post
This is a nice change for sure. These new offhands will save us all 1500 pts. Some early playing around with yo's yields (for me) a ~2% upgrade over 2 supremus hammers which is our current best combo. Now I can buy them both on week 1
In practice i'm finding RT/Syphon to be better than 2 x Syphon. Yo's sim doesnt agree, but then sims are only a guide.
#3912SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
In practice i'm finding RT/Syphon to be better than 2 x Syphon. Yo's sim doesnt agree, but then sims are only a guide.
By the same token, I am wondering if S3/Syphon will be better than S3/S3. Seems to me like 2.6/2.8 is, in practice, better than 2.6/2.6 or 2.8/2.8 simply because in pve it's easy to always be hitting with the offhand before the mainhand when using same speed weapons, which would pretty significantly reduce your dps. If you're using 2.6/2.8 or 2.7/2.8, eventually it will come 'round to a full cycle and for a good portion of the time your mainhand will be "allowed" to proc windfury before your offhand.
#3913SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
berg
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
In practice i'm finding RT/Syphon to be better than 2 x Syphon. Yo's sim doesnt agree, but then sims are only a guide.
I am using RT/Siphon also. My testing is inconclusive but I feel that all 3 combinations of those weapons yield damage within 1% of each other.

I really appreciate the even distribution of item mods on the S3 weapons. Let us hope that Sunwell weapons have a similar 'budget friendly' distribution.

Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
By the same token, I am wondering if S3/Syphon will be better than S3/S3.
This will doubtlessly be a hot topic and something we should plan on gathering data for. My hope is that sunwell will obsolete all of them though

Last edited by berg : 10/16/07 at 1:53 PM.
#3914SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by berg View Post
I am using RT/Siphon also. My testing is inconclusive but I feel that all 3 combinations of those weapons yield damage within 1% of each other.

I really appreciate the even distribution of item mods on the S3 weapons. Let us hope that Sunwell weapons have a similar 'budget friendly' distribution.
I use 2x Syphon for the most part, only switching to RT/Syphon for fights where the stamina helps, like Sharaz and Council.
#3915SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by berg View Post
This is a nice change for sure. These new offhands will save us all 1500 pts. Some early playing around with yo's yields (for me) a ~2% upgrade over 2 supremus hammers which is our current best combo. Now I can buy them both on week 1
Berg, no one can buy a weapon that requires more than 1500 personal rating on week 1. Everyone has to wait until at least the next tuesday in order to purchase it. However, I do wish you luck.
My experience as enhance in arena, is that I can reach half way into the 1600s before falling like a rock. I have doubts that I can get a personal rating of 1850... which is fine, they are supposed to be arena weapons, not something for fighting Kil'jaeden. All I know is that sunwell better damnwell have a non-unique, non-sword slow one hander.
#3916SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
Berg, no one can buy a weapon that requires more than 1500 personal rating on week 1. Everyone has to wait until at least the next tuesday in order to purchase it. However, I do wish you luck.
My experience as enhance in arena, is that I can reach half way into the 1600s before falling like a rock. I have doubts that I can get a personal rating of 1850... which is fine, they are supposed to be arena weapons, not something for fighting Kil'jaeden. All I know is that sunwell better damnwell have a non-unique, non-sword slow one hander.
I had not considered this. Is this verified or are you assuming that the 1850 will need to make it through one week to become valid?

The team arena score updates on the fly so I see no reason why it would prevent you from buying once your team breaks the 1850 mark on week 1.
#3917SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
◊ Rob
These changes are really exciting as far as our PvP itemization is concerned. I'm glad my crusade to get the glove equip bonus changed was successful. The small amounts of MP5 on S3 gear aren't really enough to complain about given that the pieces are otherwise very well itemized (DPS stats split between STR, Hit, Crit, ignore armor, and yellow/red sockets on the two items with MP5). Does anyone have a link to the aforementioned "Vengeful Gladiator's Left Render"? If such a thing exists, I'm definitely going to have to figure out a way to get 1850 personal rating. (That axe graphic is pretty ugly and while I find the maces and fists cool, I couldn't find a 2.6 speed off-hand mace or fist.)

As far as PvE itemization, well, perhaps these changes show they're listening and will take the MP5 off T6 if we bother them enough?

Last edited by Rob : 10/16/07 at 2:55 PM.
#3918SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
rava
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
I use 2x Syphon for the most part, only switching to RT/Syphon for fights where the stamina helps, like Sharaz and Council.
I can't seem to get your armory to load, but aren't you a smith? Are you really seeing better results dual wielding Syphon(every test I've done and sim I've ran have Dragonstrike coming out 2+% ahead)? I'm not asking to criticize, but to find insights that maybe 30 min periods on Blasted Lands mobs or 10000 hours on sims aren't showing me.

For Rob:

http://www.worldofraids.com/news/oct...ons/render.jpg
http://www.worldofraids.com/news/oct...ns/chopper.jpg

Doesn't have the mace but it's basically the same thing.

Show your support: WoW Forums -> Enhancement Shaman T6

Last edited by rava : 10/16/07 at 3:05 PM.
#3919SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3falonub
edit: Rava beat me to the punch ~_~ :P ^ and @ malan, yeah I realized that; and I questioned my mental capacity after that :P Guess I'm just tired
#3920SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
That's an axe not a mace.
#3921SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Found my own link to the "Left Render" at WoR.

It looks to me like in these screenshots the MH weapons are currently not requiring an 1850 rating to equip. Compare the above shot to this one showing the Right Ripper for comparison; the item icon isn't overlaid with red to show it's not equippable and the "Requires 1850" isn't appearing in the text. This is a very interesting change as well.
#3922SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
Argh, nvm. You just proved the people in the PTR topic wrong by the way.
#3923SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3generalanders
Has anyone tested the hidden cooldown effect with totem'ing the mainhand and windfurying the offhand(are they unlinked)? What about a weaponswap that quickly throws the offhand into main for the WF totem buff, and then swaps back? I know the second option would be a lot of extra hassle.
#3924SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
From the first post:
Do not use WF Totem instead of WF Weapon on your MH. While you may ~think~ it will help you avoid the WF cooldown problem, the totem isn't providing anywhere near the benefit you'll get from the weapon imbue.
WF Totem has the following issues: no elemental weapons bonus (40% multiple), only one extra attack (200% multiple), lesser AP bonus (scalar). Each MH WF Totem hit would be 100% extra damage or so compared to a normal attack, and has only one chance of proc'ing flurry, any weapon procs, and UR. Each MH WF imbue hit would be 280% extra damage or so compare to a normal attack, and has 2 chances of proc'ing those things.
In a very very simplified way of looking at it, you'd have to proc MH WF 2.8 as many times using the totem as you do using the imbue, for it to be worth it.
If you are going to go to that much trouble to get the WFT imbue on the offhand, why not just use Flametongue?
#3925SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Another request (starting to feel like a spammer here). As I suck on macros:
Macro to:
(equip totem, will this trigger GDC? if yes, do it after startattack)
Start attack
Stormstrike

and repeat.

I've tried some experimenting but macro simply stops attack after 2-3 push.

Thanks a lot.
#3926SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Another request (starting to feel like a spammer here). As I suck on macros:
Macro to:
(equip totem, will this trigger GDC? if yes, do it after startattack)
Start attack
Stormstrike

and repeat.

I've tried some experimenting but macro simply stops attack after 2-3 push.

Thanks a lot.
#3927SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
If you wanted to do something like that, it would probably have to be a castsequence macro.

/startattack
/castsequence Stormstrike, Totem Thingy

Press that twice whenever stormstrike is up and your totem will get equipped while the GCD from Stormstrike is still cooling down.
#3928SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lujaar
Some quick, sloppy napkinmath on the ele vs resto thing:

With UR and stormstrike up I was earthshocking for ~1100 on PTR. With a 5% crit rate (2.5% more damage) and 16% miss rate, my earthshocks are going to average 930 damage.

Shocking every 6 seconds is 155 DPS. Shocking every 6.3 seconds is 147 DPS (one in five shocks delayed one GCD because your shock came off cooldown at the same time as stormstrike). Shocking every 5 seconds is 186 DPS. So Reverb is worth 39 DPS.


For comparison, Nature's Guidance is 3% more white damage and 3% more shock damage. (Really, the 3% more white damage thing is a gross oversimplification - the extra attacks can't crit, but they may be able to proc windfury. It's close enough to 3% white damage that I'm going to just go with that.) But anyway, 3% more white damage, 3% more shock damage. Last I checked something like 60% of my melee damage was white damage, and I average about 1000 melee DPS (shocks excluded, obviously). So the 3% hit is worth ~18 DPS. The 3% spell hit is going to be about 5 DPS.

So just comparing reverb vs nature's guidance, reverb comes out 16 DPS ahead. Factoring in Concussion and Call of Flame, I'd expect a ~25 DPS increase from going elemental over resto.

Whether 25 DPS + elemental warding is more valuable than cheaper totems + faster HW + imp reincarnate isn't a numbers question and can only be answered by the individual player.
#3929SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
For me the kicker is improved totem range. In my opinion, totem range should be 30' standard and expandable with talent.

Out of curiosity, did the elemental testing include the +3% spell hit from that talent? Since we have no spell hit, I'm curious how much difference that makes in shock resists. I secretly want the Ele/Enh build to work as well, primarily for Reverb and elemental warding. I just cringe at giving up the totem range and natures guidance.
#3930SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
I can confirm from checking out the vendor myself that lot of weapons have no rating requirement on item link OR on mouseover. A lot of them on the other hand, do.
#3931SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Definitely looked at the wrong forum, but frequent the suggestion forums!
#3932SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
Curiosity: Stonebreaker totem says "Shock spells have..." does that mean the spell needs to be cast, or the spell needs to hit? I am guessing that it needs to hit, but the text doesn't indicate that.
#3933SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3falonub
Guys....this isn't the pally forums I know, but after widespread complaining and/or just bringing it up, paladins now get a threat reduction talent in their retribution tree. 30% reduced threat. While we have our threat reduction, if enough people petition about mp5 on t6, or the set bonus of our t6 or even our talents such as anticipation/toughness we may get it changed. It's possible.
WoW Forums -> Retribution Threat Change
#3934SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cruelty
DamageMeters: <DPS> report on 14/3 sources:
#01: Crueltii 1092.8
#02: Searing Totem VII 65.0
#03: Fire Nova Totem VII 0.6
Combat duration = 1791.82 seconds.
Total = 1158.4 (1158.4 visible)

Ok so thats the stats on the immortal mob in Blastedlands for the ele/enh spec for a full WF duration (30mins).

The mob level is 54 non elite btw.

Need to balance my macros cast sequence for this spec so Im shocking in the right spots.. I was finding there was times I was waiting on the SS cooldown to finish while the shocks were up. That could push some more damage.

recount was showing my crit rate for melee vs a lvl 54 as 33.5% vs 29.99% actual. To give you a idea of the extra kinda damage hitting a 54 would be. So Id say maybe drop 100 dps from the 1158.4 possibly more.

DamageMeters: <DPS> report on 14/2 sources:
#01: Crueltii 1063.9
#02: Searing Totem VII 58.0
Combat duration = 1807.55 seconds.
Total = 1121.9 (1121.9 visible)

Was the damage from the enh resto spec on the same mobs.

Now as you can see its not a big damage difference but I think it something thats scales more with AP (spelldamage) than with just the hit incease. So the shocks and searing totem will start to do more damage when raidbuffed (yeah durr I know). Its had to see the actual damage difference of having that extra hit because of the mobs level.

If I can work out the best timing for my cast sequence for the ele/enh spec so i dont waste proc chances Im thinking that the damage will be higher again.
#3935SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Blasted lands mobs skew results. There's no real reason to use them anymore.
#3936SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Aeolian
The loss of the +hit from the Restoration spec will hurt you much more versus a mob of equal level or a boss level mob then it will against a level 54 mob in the blasted lands. You cannot effectively test the difference in the two spec's without taking each one into an instance and testing it. I would recommend something like Morogrim since you can stand stationary behind him for most of the fight. Unless you find the gear to replace the hit lost by those talents your miss rate will increase dramatically. And replacing that hit with gear is going to decrease your DPS because you cannot focus on other stats that would increase it.

If you were to have gear at Stigmata's level, where you get a great deal of Hit Rating from the gear without any serious loss in DPS, I could see the switch for the additional damage, but even then your losing out on +Spell Hit and the increased totem range. That +Spell Hit will effect your shock DPS as well, even after 2.3.
#3937SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cruelty
Yep thats currently what im thinking now after nutting it out some more. What I really need is some good raiding results to back up which spec will be the best.
To give you all a idea in difference of dps vs the blastedlands (epeen stroking mobs) I got invited to a ZA lastnight. Using the standard enh/resto spec (a few differences for the Mental quickness) I was at the 700-750 (fire totems included) dps mark on the trash and bosses.
It would proberly be higher if It was just data from the bossfights but I wanted to see the difference in my missrate with the nerf to the orc weapon racial.
Few things I would like to mention is that with the upped threat reduction for melee to 30% and salv (dont leave home without it) threat was not a issue for me at all. If I did accidently pull agro because I started on a mob early I just used Shamanistic Rage for the damage reduction as well.
With the Focused casting (60% cheaper shocks) and the new water sheild mana was never a issue, I rarely had to use SR for mana back.
Only gripe is that the spelldamage is not correctly reflected in the toon sheet but I have fed that back to blizz.
#3938SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
panny
Originally Posted by Neithan View Post
Panny as I cba to set up PowerAuras myself, would you be so kind and put a config file somewhere to download?

Thanks!
Here's my PowerAura lua file: RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting I assume this is where configs are stored.

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
That's an axe not a mace.
The Arena Maces look like giant bouquets anyway.

Last edited by panny : 10/17/07 at 12:57 AM.
#3939SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Minel
I have bin browsing through alot of forums here lately since i rerolled an enhancement shammy from a rogue... And a question i find not really answered is, how effective it is to use the old GM weapon wich has a speed on 2.9 in the OH over lets say a weapon like netherbane or the merci 2.6 weapons.

This is when im using dragonstrike in my MH (2.7) speed. so it just confuses me abit that, we need a slow offhand is clearly stated but if its a 2.6 it will still hit first in most cases and steal the MH WF proc.

So what i would really love is, if someone could throw some info with some theorycraft telling me that im totaly wrong using the old GM weapon in OH or not. Since im not that good with math and stuff i would just love if someone could help me out.
#3940SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
Toss it in the sim, and find out.
#3941SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
For me the kicker is improved totem range. In my opinion, totem range should be 30' standard and expandable with talent.

Out of curiosity, did the elemental testing include the +3% spell hit from that talent? Since we have no spell hit, I'm curious how much difference that makes in shock resists. I secretly want the Ele/Enh build to work as well, primarily for Reverb and elemental warding. I just cringe at giving up the totem range and natures guidance.
Assume a highly geared shaman, 20% hit from gear incl. enh tree +hit, 40% crit, 28% base miss for dw, 6% dodge, 6.25% glancing factored in

the closed attacktable looks like (100-28-6-6.25+20+40) = 119.75
now increasing hit +3, it is 122.75, the dps increase in % is now 2.5% for white dmg, so something in the range of 1.25-1.5% total dmg
as for shocks, basic resist is 17%, so getting 3% spellhit, increases our factor to 0.86, so the dmg increase for shocks is 0.86/0.83 = 3.6%. Assuming 10% total dps from shocks, this is not even 0.5% of total dmg.
Nature's Guidance is worth some 1.5-2.0% in dps for a fully geared enh shaman

Lujaar's math is fine, except that spellmiss is actually 17% against lvl 73, does not change the result that much though.
Technically you can not beat Reverbaration in DPS increase and as he said, it's up to you if it is worth for you.
#3942SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I can't seem to get your armory to load, but aren't you a smith? Are you really seeing better results dual wielding Syphon(every test I've done and sim I've ran have Dragonstrike coming out 2+% ahead)? I'm not asking to criticize, but to find insights that maybe 30 min periods on Blasted Lands mobs or 10000 hours on sims aren't showing me.
That's a question i've been asking myself a lot.

Being a Macesmith myself, i wonder when i see Blacksmith enhancement shamans using rising tide, or Syphons. Do you guys value those over Dragonstrike?

I can imagine the axesmith replacing wicked edge by Rising Tide, since it's simply better, but what about macesmithes what would you use?

Originally Posted by Xoya
Originally Posted by Stigmata
In practice i'm finding RT/Syphon to be better than 2 x Syphon. Yo's sim doesnt agree, but then sims are only a guide.
By the same token, I am wondering if S3/Syphon will be better than S3/S3. Seems to me like 2.6/2.8 is, in practice, better than 2.6/2.6 or 2.8/2.8 simply because in pve it's easy to always be hitting with the offhand before the mainhand when using same speed weapons, which would pretty significantly reduce your dps. If you're using 2.6/2.8 or 2.7/2.8, eventually it will come 'round to a full cycle and for a good portion of the time your mainhand will be "allowed" to proc windfury before your offhand.
An equally interesting reading.

I've never tested this myself yet, but i had the feeling having both hands at the same speed was actually a good thing for flurry reasons. Now i read the contrary i'm a bit confused, are there some parses confirming your feelings?
#3943SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Mano
this is using the general AEP from the first post, as it's more or less general thinking

The chance to critical strike increases by 1% per 22.1 critical strike rating points at level 70, thus using 1 crit rating as 2 AEP, 1% Crit is ~44AEP. (which actually seems pretty high?)

It's 1% per 15.8 hit rating points at level 70. general AEP for hit rating is 1.17. The old bonus is ~3% hit and 0.2% crit (plus whatever else), which is equal to ~64.26EP(plus whatever else). Pretty steep nerf which might actually value hit rating a bit more for Orcs now.


According to the first post, [Wicked Edge of the Planes] is worth 94 AEP for non-Orcs, [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] is worth 84 AEP, while [Dragonstrike] is worth 98AEP.

Comparing the two BS weapons, the axe would still totally destroy the mace it seems. Actually practically any axe would destroy anything other except for outgeared stuff (when coming from AEP alone, not factoring DPS)?


Something totally different: has anyone checked on PTR if the BS weapons still are MH only? I've copied my char over, but didn't think to check it out.

Last edited by Mano : 10/17/07 at 7:55 AM. Reason: itemlink wrong
#3944SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Veritas17
Alright so are you saying that the wicked edge of the planes is actually better than the dragonstrike still? I know, i'm a tad slow as it's 7:01am here where i'm at and i've been sick the past two days without sleep.

That said, i'm trying to find out more about what AEP is exactly thru the archives so forgive me my noobiness.

edit: I looked for you and no, they didn't make the BS weapons one handed. :/

Last edited by Veritas17 : 10/17/07 at 8:15 AM. Reason: answering previous question
#3945SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Shakkha View Post
That's a question i've been asking myself a lot.

Being a Macesmith myself, i wonder when i see Blacksmith enhancement shamans using rising tide, or Syphons. Do you guys value those over Dragonstrike?

I can imagine the axesmith replacing wicked edge by Rising Tide, since it's simply better, but what about macesmithes what would you use?
I replaced dragonstrike with Syphon when I got my second then replaced the Syphon with RT when I got that, i'm sure there are arguments for any combination being better, but I think it comes down to personal preference. And I prefer RT/Syphon.
#3946SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Shakkha View Post
I've never tested this myself yet, but i had the feeling having both hands at the same speed was actually a good thing for flurry reasons. Now i read the contrary i'm a bit confused, are there some parses confirming your feelings?
For flurry reasons, in a perfect situation, same speed is always going to be better if you can get your weapons attacking at the same time because the game has to fudge the numbers a bit to compensate for lag. However, using two same speed weapons can seriously nerf your windfury damage if you're always attacking with your offhanding first, which you will be doing if you begin attacking outside of melee range of the mob. That's most likely why, in practice, slow/slower works out better for damage than same speed weapons.
#3947SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
However, using two same speed weapons can seriously nerf your windfury damage if you're always attacking with your offhanding first, which you will be doing if you begin attacking outside of melee range of the mob.
This is a fallacy -- the same thing has an equal chance of happening with MH procs. Using the same speed weapons is simply more subject to streakiness due to this factor; different speeds will eventually force the cycle to be broken and can result in more consistent damage. In truth it matters little because Stormstrike always considers the MH to hit first and thus get first chance to proc. You'll rarely see the same hand proc more than a few times in a row, and it ends up being more of a coin toss chance as to which hand will go off next with the odds slightly skewed in the main hand's favor.
#3948SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Kurisu
Mind you the adjusted values of AEP for Orcs will no longer mean anything since their racial will work different, just take the weapons natural AEP and add 1% crit level of AEP to it. Basically your just adding in 35.2-44 AEP on average (i believe since it is just 1.6/2 times 22 for the crit rating).
#3949SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
This is a fallacy -- the same thing has an equal chance of happening with MH procs. Using the same speed weapons is simply more subject to streakiness due to this factor; different speeds will eventually force the cycle to be broken and can result in more consistent damage. In truth it matters little because Stormstrike always considers the MH to hit first and thus get first chance to proc. You'll rarely see the same hand proc more than a few times in a row, and it ends up being more of a coin toss chance as to which hand will go off next with the odds slightly skewed in the main hand's favor.
The more consistent damage from using different speed weapons is probably what inclines people to use, say, Rising Tide in the mainhand instead of a second Syphon. You have to also take into account those who stormstrike every time the cooldown is up regardless of whether windfury is cooled down. They do this to get the stormstrike debuff back up more quickly as well as totem twist more easily (using a SS/WF/GOA macro), and as such there is no guarantee that any given stormstrike will even be able to proc a windfury.

My main intent in discussing this is to figure out why people are, in practice, seeing larger DPS gains using 2.6/2.8 vs. 2.8/2.8 so what we can decide whether S3/S3 is going to be better or worse than S3/Syphon when Arena Season 3 comes out.
#3950SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
It probably has something to do with how a 2.6 drops to exactly 2.0 speed when flurried, which is one of the sweet spots for WF proc rate.
#4076SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Originally Posted by Neithan View Post
Coeficients are based on your gear? Because honestly I did some comparisons like
Skyshatter Pauldrons - 190,98
and
Pauldrons of Primal Fury - 187,04

which I find a little bit skewed.
Not really. See 28 agi gives more crit than 20 crit rating and 20 hit rating is more than 11 hit rating. Sockets number is same, and both are good socket types. Socket bonus is better for T6. That gives 37 str vs 58 AP in which T6 clearly wins. With BoK it is about 81 AP vs 58 AP. So 23 AP compared to about 3 crit rating (from head, can be way wrong :P) and 9 hit rating. THeir rather close to each other. T6 has more non-AEP stats however with 48 stamina, 19 intellect and 7 MP5/s compared to just 30 stamina.
#4077SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Originally Posted by rava View Post
No. Spell damage hasn't worked with items since ret paladins were tearing kids with Sulfuras and rogues were stacking spell damage with Thunderfury two years ago.
And shamans with full EF were getting 600 heals from crusader enchant.. good old times.
#4078SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Freyalis
Ah yes those were the days, ZHC + Ancient Hakkari Manslayer was a pretty brutal combo aswell heheh, both easily available from ZG
#4079SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Neithan
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Not really. See 28 agi gives more crit than 20 crit rating and 20 hit rating is more than 11 hit rating. Sockets number is same, and both are good socket types. Socket bonus is better for T6. That gives 37 str vs 58 AP in which T6 clearly wins. With BoK it is about 81 AP vs 58 AP. So 23 AP compared to about 3 crit rating (from head, can be way wrong :P) and 9 hit rating. THeir rather close to each other. T6 has more non-AEP stats however with 48 stamina, 19 intellect and 7 MP5/s compared to just 30 stamina.
Interesting. Thanks for your answer.

(Time to do some more calculations).

Altough:

Coefficients
Strength 2,2
Agility 2,05
Red Socket 17,6
Yellow Socket 17,24
Blue Socket 8,8
Hit Rating 1,84
Critical Strike Rating 2,11
Haste Rating 1,94
Attack Power 1
Ignore Armor 0,32
Expertise Rating 2,484

Last edited by Neithan : 10/19/07 at 10:08 AM.
#4080SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Malan
To the guy asking about hit rating and WF procs - I suggest you read this article. Attack tables and you - WOW Insider

I've added the weapon DPS AEP values, along with an example comparison of Netherbane vs Merciless Gladiator weapons, and updated Panny's calculations on Stonebreaker.

Last edited by Malan : 10/19/07 at 10:31 AM.
#4081SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Pitbuller
I did have some extra time today and I double checked my math with Wdps aep.
I used Base line 2*2.6s*100dps weapons(easier to compare), 30%crit, 18% hit, 1500ap, 4400 armor, 2*mongoose, totem of astral winds, RED, BoM, MotW, soe, flask of resentless assault. No shocks nor 2.3. (Those are listed that yuo can check my test result if you want. I think if you use different values you should get same result anyway.)


result from YO's simulator.
scaling Mh wDPS and AP:

AP     MhWdps   Total DPS
652     200       980
1076    150       981
1500    100       979
1924     50       979
2348      0       978
scaling Oh wDPS and AP:

AP     Oh Wdps   Total DPS
1076    200       978
1288    150       979
1500    100       979
1712     50       979
1924      0       980
All result show that 1wDPS to MH8.48aep and Oh 4.24aep is less than 1% wrong when using same speed weapons.

EDIT: finally its readable.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 10/19/07 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Messy
#4082SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I'm not sure I understand your chart. You may want to use the [ code ] tags to allow spacing.
#4083SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mindrila
I'm wondering why noone implemented the Wrath Card into simulations, it isn't that hard i think. (Well I have no sourcecode of a simulator available so I can't say how difficult it is)

The card is working like this:
If the hit is not a crit increase critrating by 17 for melee and spells.
If the hit is a crit return to normal critrating.

Stormstrike procs the card.
Windfury doesn't.
Shocks proc the card.

I really don't know how complex this is to integrate but I would like to see some thing of a chart like AEP over Basecritrating.
AEP would be calculated like this: (Critrate - Basiccritrate)*22.1* AEP Valuation for Crit

I would like to see someone modelling this card into a simulator (my shaman has this card and it's really hard to say if its worth it or not, so a simulation would be nice)
#4084SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Jerem
As far as the Darkmoon : Wrath card is concerned, it is modelled in Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet.

It might be totally different for a Shaman, but for a Hunter it becomes less and less efficient the more "passive" crit% you have. Call that "negative scaling" if you want.
Since Crit Rating is one of the most valued stat, I wouldn't invest in a Wrath card.

For a hunter, the Darkmoon : Crusade card is better than Wrath. Should be similar, or close to similar for a Shaman.

Last edited by Jerem : 10/19/07 at 11:36 AM.
#4085SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Its the same way for Shaman. The less crit you have, the better the Wrath card is. The more crit you have, the value of the card approaches zero. According to people who have figured it out, at 30% or more crit (easily achieved in T5 gear with buffs) you are critting so often that you only see a couple stacks of the card at any time.
#4086SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ardonomus
Searched for [Band of the Eternal Champion], all I found was a few-post discussion about it. I'm currently AEP valuing all the gear from Hyjal and BT but I have a hard time on this one due to the chance on hit effect.

Any update on that?
#4087SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Very few people are Exalted with Hyjal and so we have next to no data available. I think Stigmata said he's pretty close to it, that was a few weeks ago.
#4088SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Very few people are Exalted with Hyjal and so we have next to no data available. I think Stigmata said he's pretty close to it, that was a few weeks ago.
I'll have it on Tuesday but I don't test things and just run by the seat of my pants. I've heard 60 sec internal cooldown with 1ppm and I'll have some anecdotal evidence after BT on wed.
#4089SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP
#4090SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Its the same way for Shaman. The less crit you have, the better the Wrath card is. The more crit you have, the value of the card approaches zero. According to people who have figured it out, at 30% or more crit (easily achieved in T5 gear with buffs) you are critting so often that you only see a couple stacks of the card at any time.
Just a thought but perhaps some value could be given to this card if you were to let your base crit fall in favor of Armor pen. 2.3 will make Armor pen pretty easy to obtain and that is a nice consistant dps boost where as crit is spikey, unpredictable and more of a threat issue. If you could get yourself in a place where the Wrath card allowed flurry/UR to be up 90-95%+ while at 25% crit you might be able to get some value there.

Of course to make all this work you're basing it off of that trinket, and in the end there's probably another trinket you could use with more standard crit rate and come out just s good or better.
#4091SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Jerem View Post
As far as the Darkmoon : Wrath card is concerned, it is modelled in Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet.

It might be totally different for a Shaman, but for a Hunter it becomes less and less efficient the more "passive" crit% you have. Call that "negative scaling" if you want.
Since Crit Rating is one of the most valued stat, I wouldn't invest in a Wrath card.

For a hunter, the Darkmoon : Crusade card is better than Wrath. Should be similar, or close to similar for a Shaman.
On top of that, we have the additional advantage of having access to double Mongoose with a great AGI to crit ratio.
#4092SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Torrential View Post
in the end there's probably another trinket you could use with more standard crit rate and come out just s good or better.
I think you answered your own question and speaking personally here, I have no interest in pursuing the particular mechanics of the Dark Moon card.
#4093SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP
Thanks, thats somewhat what I heard aswell, that'll have to do until it's being tested properly when more people get exalted
#4094SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP
Has the ring been changed in 2.3? Tooltip in-game still says 10 sec duration atleast so that'd be:
160 * 10 / 60 = ~26.7 AEP
#4095SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Neithan View Post
Coeficients are based on your gear? Because honestly I did some comparisons like
Skyshatter Pauldrons - 190,98
and
Pauldrons of Primal Fury - 187,04

which I find a little bit skewed.
Obviously those AEP values have to be based on my gear. You can replace the coefficients with your own AEP values obtained by running Yo's sim.

Nevertheless, that's not a skewed comparison at all. Skyshatter is heavy on STA, INT, and MP5. Pauldrons of Primal Fury has no INT and no MP5, freeing up a ton of item budget to be used on useful stats.
You're comparing: 34 STR, 11 hit, 26 crit to 28 AGI, 20 hit, 58 AP. Those are almost identical in terms of DPS.
#4096SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Yasuhiko View Post
On to my main topic: I have a question. Using enhancer, with "best possible gems," on the PTR, I get an AEP of ~250 for the Cyclone Helm, but live gives me an esimated AEP of 175. Is there a reason for this? Is it a change to RED?
Most likely you are not including either meta gems or gem estimates on Live. Meta gem slots or in reality RED in the meta slot will have 75 AEP added to it's value if gem estimates and meta gems are checked since Increase Critical Damage 3% isn't a pure stat that can't be multiplied with output from ItemBonusLib.
#4097SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Noise
Is anyone working on a definitive stat weight for weapon expertise?


I grabbed the shoulder pads of the stranger last night to see how it works out. Now to re-copy myself to test. I would be replacing the T5 shoulders so I struggle to think they would be better. On the other hand I have no Expertise rating on any other items, as with most stats, I'm sure the first couple of points will make the most difference.

There is nothing worse than seeing that MH WF proc come up:

DODGE
DODGE
#4098SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Weapon expertise is going to vary from fight to fight based on how often the boss mob casts (casting mobs can't dodge) and how easy it is to maintain perfect positioning behind the mob (mobs can't parry from behind).

That said, it looks fairly valuable. Multiply hit rating AEP by 1.8 if you assume that the mob will never cast and never parry.
#4099SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Obviously those AEP values have to be based on my gear. You can replace the coefficients with your own AEP values obtained by running Yo's sim.

Nevertheless, that's not a skewed comparison at all. Skyshatter is heavy on STA, INT, and MP5. Pauldrons of Primal Fury has no INT and no MP5, freeing up a ton of item budget to be used on useful stats.
You're comparing: 34 STR, 11 hit, 26 crit to 28 AGI, 20 hit, 58 AP. Those are almost identical in terms of DPS.
Yes realized that . After doing some calculations it seems that Z'A/badge loot is close to T6.
#4100SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Noise
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Weapon expertise is going to vary from fight to fight based on how often the boss mob casts (casting mobs can't dodge) and how easy it is to maintain perfect positioning behind the mob (mobs can't parry from behind).

That said, it looks fairly valuable. Multiply hit rating AEP by 1.8 if you assume that the mob will never cast and never parry.
Thanks for the value.

After looking at it, this makes the Shoulderpads of the Stranger a no brainer over the T5 shoulder until you can get the 4 piece bonus.

Yet another piece of my set to get shelfed for a better leather item.

WTS MP5
#4276SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Tornhoof View Post
MH Rising Tide OH Syphon

I still disagree with this. From all my tests iv done, there more dps from Syphon in the MH assuming SS only when WF can proc. I thought all the tests id seen on here also said this.
#4277SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rhagok
Definitely not all the test you have seen, because surely Stigmata would disagree with you. He is wielding RT / Syphon too btw.
#4278SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Bai View Post
On the PTR currently, (I am logged in right now) my spelldmg/healing (from the new Mental Quickness) are not updating correctly on the character sheet. It's been like this for weeks now. Sometimes, logging off and back on changes the numbers but they are never accurate if totems/trinkets/buffs are applied/used.

Anyone else seeing this?
A few people noticed. After testing it seems it's just a character sheet display error.
#4279SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Gulvan
A question I have right now though is if I should keep my dragonstrike or go with RT/Syphon. I know the haste proc is huge in figuring out dps numbers but am I at the point where the stats gained from rt will outweigh the proc buff?
#4280SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
rava
Originally Posted by Gulvan View Post
A question I have right now though is if I should keep my dragonstrike or go with RT/Syphon. I know the haste proc is huge in figuring out dps numbers but am I at the point where the stats gained from rt will outweigh the proc buff?
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo

I have all of the "best" weapon combos and in game testing as well as sims have always had Dragonstrike above any other MH weapon for me. I don't understand your "at the point" statement because it's not like haste has a constant value, it gets more valuable as your other stats increase as well.

And a big WTF to ret paladins, clearly we are not bitching enough. S3 gear has been out for what, 2 weeks? Glad that stuff is getting changed for them.

Last edited by rava : 10/26/07 at 1:36 AM. Reason: wtf
#4281SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
drats
Originally Posted by rava View Post
And a big WTF to ret paladins, clearly we are not bitching enough. S3 gear has been out for what, 2 weeks? Glad that stuff is getting changed for them.
I'm actually a little concerned about this. We need to get more shaman to speak up about gear, or else we'll be stuck with crap forever (t5 shoulders, mp5 on t6, t6 2p). Offset gear shouldn't be better than our tier gear, but it seems like this is the case with every new set that comes out. Let our voices be heard!!

The t6 2p really really needs to be changed in 2.3. Since they changed the old t1 bonus when our 30yd totem range talent came out, I don't think this would be too much of a stretch.

Last edited by drats : 10/26/07 at 2:42 AM. Reason: I need to read the dictionary more.
#4282SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Jinne
Basic DPS calc with standard raid debuffs (CoE/Malediction - 13%, Misery - 5%, Scorch - 15%)
EarthShock: 675/12 * 1.18 = 66.4 DPS
FlameShock: 797/12 * 1.36 = 90.3 DPS
I'm wondering if Flame shock is better than Earth shock without Coe and Scorch.
In the calculation I can't figure out what the 18/36 are from. Misery for earch shock, that's 5, where do the other 13 come from? Same thing for Flame shock, 13+5+15=33? Where do the extra 3 come from. Also, is Stormstrike included in that calculation?
On a different topic, I read the note about Searing totem in the original post, but it only mention the 2.3 version. Is it worth using currently?

Last edited by Jinne : 10/26/07 at 3:01 AM.
#4283SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3david0925
Originally Posted by Jinne View Post
Basically I'm wondering if Flame shock is still better than Earth shock without Coe and Scorch.
In the calculation I can't figure out what the 18/36 are from, misery for earch shock, that's 5, where do the other 13 come from? And same thing for Flame shock, 13+5+15=33? Where do the extra 3 come from. Also, is Stormstrike included in that calculation?
On a different topic, I read the note about Searing totem in the original post, but it only talks about the 2.3 version. Is it worth using currently?
13% is Malediction-ed CoE
5% is Misery
15% is Scorch

20% Stormstrike is included in ES

Searing Totem is worth using right now because we don't have a lot of places to spend mana anyway, if you don't twist totems.
#4284SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Morelis
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo

I have all of the "best" weapon combos and in game testing as well as sims have always had Dragonstrike above any other MH weapon for me. I don't understand your "at the point" statement because it's not like haste has a constant value, it gets more valuable as your other stats increase as well.
I wouldn't put too much faith in Yo's modelling of Dragonstrike, it's pretty optimistic on proc uptime.
#4285SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3McMullet
Can someone tell me the exact base miss rates on mobs based on level?

I had a friend try and tell me that OH has a higher miss rate than MH?

Thanks in advance!
#4286SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Jinne View Post
I'm wondering if Flame shock is better than Earth shock without Coe and Scorch.
You don't even have to think about it in terms of other buffs on the mob. If there is -anyone- else using your Stormstrike nature charges, you're better off waiting to earth shock till storm strike is off the mob, so you may as well cast flame shock instead.
#4287SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Disquette
If you use disqodice and would like some input on the display of the watershield component, I'm looking for help and would appreciate it if people would stop by here:

How would you do this? - Not code help, I want design suggestions
#4288SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3beetlejuice
Hello fellow shamans,
i would like to add my two words of wisdom.

Be careful with your new gear addition. Don't vendor your old one, unless it is an exact upgrade of stats. But if your new gear has different stats, like not agi and critical strike but agi and hit rating or haste rating, better keep them both as you cant tell when you will go lower in hit rating or critical or any, with the constant upgrade in your gear.
And no calculator or AEP can figure that out for you. Stats are good to weight but you should look your overall stats when deciding your current gear. Keep all different epics in your bank, it wont hurt. Going below 125-140 in hit rating is bad, going below 28% (without feral druid in raid) or 25% (with feral druid in raid) is also bad. These numbers are empirical and are my base crit stats, accompanied with 2 mongooses. So keep your blue crit trinkets and your old hit rating epic gear in bank,. You will have situations you will really need to stir that big soup of epics to make a nice viable combo of gear.

I would also like to agree with some posts, 14 talent points in resto are essential for maximizing your dps. But to maximize dps in long raid battles, means that you need also cheaper mana costs for totems and for shocks. Thats why i really use 5 points in totems (or 3 and rest 2 in improved reincarnation ) and remaining talent points in elemental tree for even cheaper shocks. Also Totemic Mastery is a must as its your only weapon against fear outranging your tremor tick rate.

A good end raid enhancement spec is http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/shaman/talents.html?2000000000000000000005050021250213353115105005301000000000000
that cheap shocks that can make him use stormstrike and shocks max possible time in dps fight.

For 2.3 i can say some things i encountered.

We never go out of mana even if we nuke for 10minutes. The Shamanistic focus is overpowered as between 6seconds of shock cooldown you will crit at least 2-3 times. That means you have constant 60% cheaper shocks to use.The part of the talent of mental quickness that refers to 6% cheaper shocks is obsolete and should be removed.
In my opinion, i won;t post it at blizzard forums :P, there should be a stackable buff from your melee criticals, that reduces the mana cost of shocks from a low discount to a high discount. That would be nice and reasonable.

PS. For the Darkmoon card : Crusade i would like to add that it creates two stackable buffs on the Enhancement shaman. One is your AP and one is for your Spelldmg. Even with 6second Shocks i have had situations where i stacked up all the spelldmg bonus from this trinket (80spelldmg), u merely need 60seconds , or 10 shocks without 2 being resisted continuously. Thats why i would like you to reconsider the AEP of this trinket and add something more to it.
#4289SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by beetlejuice View Post
Hello fellow shamans,
i would like to add my two words of wisdom.

Be careful with your new gear addition. Don't vendor your old one, unless it is an exact upgrade of stats. But if your new gear has different stats, like not agi and critical strike but agi and hit rating or haste rating, better keep them both as you cant tell when you will go lower in hit rating or critical or any, with the constant upgrade in your gear.
And no calculator or AEP can figure that out for you. Stats are good to weight but you should look your overall stats when deciding your current gear. Keep all different epics in your bank, it wont hurt. Going below 125-140 in hit rating is bad, going below 28% (without feral druid in raid) or 25% (with feral druid in raid) is also bad. These numbers are empirical and are my base crit stats, accompanied with 2 mongooses. So keep your blue crit trinkets and your old hit rating epic gear in bank,. You will have situations you will really need to stir that big soup of epics to make a nice viable combo of gear.

I would also like to agree with some posts, 14 talent points in resto are essential for maximizing your dps. But to maximize dps in long raid battles, means that you need also cheaper mana costs for totems and for shocks. Thats why i really use 5 points in totems (or 3 and rest 2 in improved reincarnation ) and remaining talent points in elemental tree for even cheaper shocks. Also Totemic Mastery is a must as its your only weapon against fear outranging your tremor tick rate.

A good end raid enhancement spec is http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/shaman/talents.html?2000000000000000000005050021250213353115105005301000000000000
that cheap shocks that can make him use stormstrike and shocks max possible time in dps fight.

For 2.3 i can say some things i encountered.

We never go out of mana even if we nuke for 10minutes. The Shamanistic focus is overpowered as between 6seconds of shock cooldown you will crit at least 2-3 times. That means you have constant 60% cheaper shocks to use.The part of the talent of mental quickness that refers to 6% cheaper shocks is obsolete and should be removed.
In my opinion, i won;t post it at blizzard forums :P, there should be a stackable buff from your melee criticals, that reduces the mana cost of shocks from a low discount to a high discount. That would be nice and reasonable.

PS. For the Darkmoon card : Crusade i would like to add that it creates two stackable buffs on the Enhancement shaman. One is your AP and one is for your Spelldmg. Even with 6second Shocks i have had situations where i stacked up all the spelldmg bonus from this trinket (80spelldmg), u merely need 60seconds , or 10 shocks without 2 being resisted continuously. Thats why i would like you to reconsider the AEP of this trinket and add something more to it.
...thanks?
#4290SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3david0925
Originally Posted by beetlejuice View Post
Hello fellow shamans,
i would like to add my two words of wisdom.

Be careful with your new gear addition. Don't vendor your old one, unless it is an exact upgrade of stats. But if your new gear has different stats, like not agi and critical strike but agi and hit rating or haste rating, better keep them both as you cant tell when you will go lower in hit rating or critical or any, with the constant upgrade in your gear.
And no calculator or AEP can figure that out for you. Stats are good to weight but you should look your overall stats when deciding your current gear. Keep all different epics in your bank, it wont hurt. Going below 125-140 in hit rating is bad, going below 28% (without feral druid in raid) or 25% (with feral druid in raid) is also bad. These numbers are empirical and are my base crit stats, accompanied with 2 mongooses. So keep your blue crit trinkets and your old hit rating epic gear in bank,. You will have situations you will really need to stir that big soup of epics to make a nice viable combo of gear.

I would also like to agree with some posts, 14 talent points in resto are essential for maximizing your dps. But to maximize dps in long raid battles, means that you need also cheaper mana costs for totems and for shocks. Thats why i really use 5 points in totems (or 3 and rest 2 in improved reincarnation ) and remaining talent points in elemental tree for even cheaper shocks. Also Totemic Mastery is a must as its your only weapon against fear outranging your tremor tick rate.

A good end raid enhancement spec is http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/shaman/talents.html?2000000000000000000005050021250213353115105005301000000000000
that cheap shocks that can make him use stormstrike and shocks max possible time in dps fight.

For 2.3 i can say some things i encountered.

We never go out of mana even if we nuke for 10minutes. The Shamanistic focus is overpowered as between 6seconds of shock cooldown you will crit at least 2-3 times. That means you have constant 60% cheaper shocks to use.The part of the talent of mental quickness that refers to 6% cheaper shocks is obsolete and should be removed.
In my opinion, i won;t post it at blizzard forums :P, there should be a stackable buff from your melee criticals, that reduces the mana cost of shocks from a low discount to a high discount. That would be nice and reasonable.

PS. For the Darkmoon card : Crusade i would like to add that it creates two stackable buffs on the Enhancement shaman. One is your AP and one is for your Spelldmg. Even with 6second Shocks i have had situations where i stacked up all the spelldmg bonus from this trinket (80spelldmg), u merely need 60seconds , or 10 shocks without 2 being resisted continuously. Thats why i would like you to reconsider the AEP of this trinket and add something more to it.
Exactly what you said here before hasn't been mentioned about 2 million times in the thread?

If you're summarizing things, please say so. You're acting as if you're talking about something none of us has ever thought about or experienced.
#4291SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Etelmo
Please have a look at the wow test realm forums, I have posted a bug to do with grounding totem that kinda needs to be fixed.
So far it only seems to effect Judgement of command from my testing, however since I have only tested using a ret paladin... This doesn't mean much.

The bug means that even if grounding totem is down, you will still take damage from JoC and the totem will be destroyed. I can see it having the same effect on other abilitys however.
It would be good if other people could do some more testing, and maybe report it to try and get it fixed.
#4292SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Malan
Originally Posted by beetlejuice View Post
Going below 125-140 in hit rating is bad

These numbers are empirical
No its not bad, and I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that those are not empirical figures at all.
Quit spreading that nonsense.
#4293SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
I'm at the point now where I can start using Epic gems in any new gear I get (MH/BT gear) I'm just wondering, how would I go about deciding on which ones to use? How do /you/ decide? do you just run the gems through the java sim and see which gives that tiny bit more DPS, or are there certain AP/CRIT values you are aiming for? Like 1600 AP 30% crit etc

thanks
#4294SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
It's very simple, use Yo's sim to get the values for the stats, you can apply them to the gems of course.
For socket bonus you can calculate if 2 x 10 STR is better or red + yellow + socket bonus, for example.
You'll need 2 blue gems for the RED metagem so you need to find the two armor pieces that gives you the most AEP with socket bonus. For example you have [Midnight Chestguard], [Bow-stitched Leggings] and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Having the socket bonus of the chest and the legs and putting 2 x 10 STR in the belt is generally better than putting 3 x 10 STR in the chest and having the socket bonus of the leggings and the belt (but it depends on your values).
#4295SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Thanks that helps. And with that, I have some questions about the Java sim.. need to know if i'm using it correctly.

I want to assume Kings, because I have kings on every raid.. now on the buffs page, it has an option for kings, but in the text below the simulator it mentions something about you putting in your stats with kings in, so just to be sure will selecting the Kings buff do that for me when running the tests or do I have to work out my stats with kings then check the kings buff?

Another thing is the haste, what's the "5" haste that is there? should I change that to 0? I don't really know what it is.

Haste potion on the buffs page.. is that assuming you are popping a haste potion on every cooldown? don't really understand how it works.

I'm also a bit unsure about what this whole "works out your /own/ aep values based on /your/ gear, because what if my gear is wrong/incorrect in the first place? I really can't see how this works? maybe someone can explain it to me in lamens terms.

That's all thanks!
#4296SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Sebudai
You want to input your stats(attack power, crit rating) with kings. I believe checking the kings option is just so it takes the buff into account when assigning an AEP value for strength and agility. For example strength has an AEP value of 2.0, unless you have kings, then each point of strength would have an AEP value of 2.2.

That haste number is the percentage of haste you have from gear.

AEP values are just numbers that tell us how valuable each stat is to us based on the gear we're currently using. The stats in WoW scale with eachother. For example as your crit percentage gets higher, the value of additional crit rating starts to decrease, and the value of additional attack power starts to increase. The stats work with eachother, which is why it's never really wise to focus on stacking one particular stat. You want some of everything. The simulator is going to give you AEP values based off of your particular stats.
#4297SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Malan
Right, that was a discussion we had with Yo quite some time back. Since you are only entering your AP, you need to let the sim know that you are getting part of that AP with Kings on. The best way to use the sim is to get buffed with MotW and Kings (since MotW affects your Strength/Agility and Kings will further increase that value) and then add in all the static buffs on the sim that have nothing to do with Kings.

If your gear is "wrong" then the sim and the AEP values it gives you will reflect that. Lets say that you stacked +Hit at the expense of all other stats, maybe you have like 300 +Hit but only 500 AP and 20% Crit. Your AEP values would place Strength and Crit/Agility very very high, but would weigh Hit rating extremely low. That would skew your gear selection toward items that spent no points on Hit Rating, but had high values of crit/str/AP.
#4298SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Right, that was a discussion we had with Yo quite some time back. Since you are only entering your AP, you need to let the sim know that you are getting part of that AP with Kings on. The best way to use the sim is to get buffed with MotW and Kings (since MotW affects your Strength/Agility and Kings will further increase that value) and then add in all the static buffs on the sim that have nothing to do with Kings.

If your gear is "wrong" then the sim and the AEP values it gives you will reflect that. Lets say that you stacked +Hit at the expense of all other stats, maybe you have like 300 +Hit but only 500 AP and 20% Crit. Your AEP values would place Strength and Crit/Agility very very high, but would weigh Hit rating extremely low. That would skew your gear selection toward items that spent no points on Hit Rating, but had high values of crit/str/AP.
That explains it, thanks I really couldn't work out how it worked, so it's really the best idea to get your own weights from the sim and use them in Enhancer rather than using the default ones in the first post?

Thanks for the replies.
#4299SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Malan
Meh... I dunno about 'best'. The default values work well enough as a baseline I think. For the most part nobody has really shown us an AEP value that gave radically different priorities of gear than anyone else - unless that guy had been exclusively stacking one stat. A few items shift around in priority, thats all I really see when I've plugged in different sets.
#4300SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Gartixxar
heya, I an new to theory crafting and in the last 4 days or so I have read all 172 pages of posts or so of this thread, I have found the information and discussion here to all be very helpful. Thank you very much for this thread.

My guild is currently just starting ssc and has downed lurker and VR, and I have pretty much entry level SSC/TK gear with the exception of the pendant.

I did my first simulation using Yo's sim and this is what I came up with

Shot at 2007-10-27
I was using major agility pots,BoM, BoK, MoTW, LoTP, TSA, GoA, SoE and roasted clefthoof for this (what I normally have up) And I believe I input the right numbers.

I did 2 more sims after and here is what I got (assuming strength=2.2 and ap=1)

AEP values of 3 sims
#1
crit rating = 1.6
hit rating=1.59
haste rating=1.75
Armor penetration=0.28
agility= 1.55

#2
crit rating = 1.65
hit rating=1.63
haste rating=1.71
Armor penetration=0.27
agility= 1.6

#3
crit rating = 1.69
hit rating=1.68
haste rating=1.77
Armor penetration=0.28
agility= 1.64

there all slightly different.....does it matter which of these value sets I use??? or should I use the second one since it is in between 1 and 3?

those AEP values seem right to me and I am thinking I am just about avg for SSC entry gear

do you think slightly lowering these stats or tweaking them a little and putting them through Yo's would provide a good AEP base value for entering SSC/TK??

this is my armory if it helps
The World of Warcraft Armory

this was done with BoK included...its 1690 because I factored in bloodlust brooch by doing (278*20/120) which came out to roughly 46 So i added it to 1644 (since theres no choice for bloodlust brooch)

Last edited by Gartixxar : 10/28/07 at 12:33 AM.
#4426SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Rapparee
This whole agility versus crit rating is superfluous.

One side is arguing AEP values - the other side is arguing survivability. It's two separate arguments.

Nowhere in this thread are armor, agility, stamina or resistances given any weighting in the AEP system. I think this is fine, we're determining how to maximize raid-level, against-bosses-only DPS.

Why is Rapparee going to take the skyshatter legs over the bow-stitched leggings?

They have 40 freaking more stamina. (the bow-stitched have 2 more sockets one of which i'd put 7 stamina+5str in... still that gives the t6 33 stam. bonus) In my particular raiding circumstances, I need more life than a shaman in a perfect raid with ulitmate healers. I like my healers they're good people, but they aren't perfect. Some people do have perfect healers, which makes me every so slightly jealous.

Why does Rapparee not care about agility vs. crit rating? Because I personally don't care about dying to BT trash, oh well i'll have to use the repair-guy after next wipe. No single trash monster in Hyjal can kill me in under 4 seconds. My healers may not be perfection but they aren't 4seconds slow either.

Also any of my healers reading this. I'm not perfection either, otherwise I'd never fall for that sneaky doomfire's tricks.

Also to reply to Skiace.... My values indicate that at my current gearing agility is worth more than strength... just barely. It's all dependant on the gear you are currently wearing and the buffs you can expect while raiding.

Last edited by Rapparee : 10/31/07 at 4:10 PM.
#4427SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
Also to reply to Skiace.... My values indicate that at my current gearing agility is worth more than strength... just barely. It's all dependant on the gear you are currently wearing and the buffs you can expect while raiding.
I know it's gear dependent, that's not my point. My point is, I've seen a lot of people's stat weightings, and they all seem to trend between the "entry level" listed in the OP and the BT/hyjal level where crit/agi etc are all 2+. My gear is a full tier above the entry level, yet my crit/agi numbers are significantly lower than the entry level ones. This confuses me.
#4428SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by Skiace View Post
I know it's gear dependent, that's not my point.
That is entirely the point of the AEP system.

The gear you currently wear, the buffs you currently expect to have influence just how important crit rating and agility are.

If you want to know why your values are different from someone else, then look at the gear you wear and compare it to the gear they wear. If every single item is the same, enchanted the same, and you use the same talents and raid with the same buffs, but still get different AEP values, then one or both of you have mis-calculated your AEP values.


The best way to use the AEP system is to evaluate the next piece of gear that drops against the one you wear in that slot.

Does the shoulder that just dropped have a higher AEP than my current shoulder? (for example)

Once you get one or two new pieces, you need to recalculate all of your AEP values.
#4429SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Skiace
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
That is entirely the point of the AEP system.

The gear you currently wear, the buffs you currently expect to have influence just how important crit rating and agility are.

If you want to know why your values are different from someone else, then look at the gear you wear and compare it to the gear they wear. If every single item is the same, enchanted the same, and you use the same talents and raid with the same buffs, but still get different AEP values, then one or both of you have mis-calculated your AEP values.


The best way to use the AEP system is to evaluate the next piece of gear that drops against the one you wear in that slot.

Does the shoulder that just dropped have a higher AEP than my current shoulder? (for example)

Once you get one or two new pieces, you need to recalculate all of your AEP values.
I feel like you're either completely missing what I'm trying to say, or just disregarding it. It is not enough for me to simply say "well, I plugged my gear into the sim and it gave me these AEP, so that's that." I want to understand why it spit out values that seem so different from the trend. "Your gear is different, so your aep values are different," isn't an explanation.

As a small test, I ran the sim with my gear -5% hit, because I have a lot of hit for my level and wanted to see if that was the culprit. The results were higher values for crit/agi, which seems to imply that my increased hit actually devalues further crit. This doesn't make sense to me either, particularly if yellow attacks are a two-roll system as (i think) the current theory claims. It also means that were I to follow the aep values every time i get a gear upgrade, agi/crit would continue to go down relative to hit/ap, and I'd end up stacking hit, which doesn't jive at all with the experiences of everyone else in this thread.

edit: running it some more with my current gear, I'm now getting more reasonable values. I have no clue what's different, perhaps the sim has changed since I last ran all these test.

Last edited by Skiace : 10/31/07 at 5:11 PM.
#4430SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hamilburg
Make sure you're inputting the values that the sim expects:

AP should be without any buffs other than kings.
I forget off the top of my head if hit should or shouldn't have the contribution from talents added in (I believe it does).

I know I got wonky results when I put in my raidbuffed AP rather than my unbuffed tooltip AP.
#4431SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Rapparee
If you want to know why one value goes down when another value goes up, then read every page in this thread. All the formulas are derived from theorized systems of how the game calculates your damage.

Let me ask you, what will you do with the information?
If I said to you, that AP and crit follow an inverse relationship where every 10 AP increase results in a -0.04 AEP valuation of crit, what would you do differently?


Edit: name of boot, AEP using entry level, AEP using Skiace's numbers.
Boots of Utter Darkness 159.86 150.78
Cobra-Lash Boots 155.42 149.15
Star-Strider Boots 155.42 149.15
Boots of the Crimson Hawk 144.15 131.8
Boots of Effortless Striking 131.08 123.1
Boots of Natural Grace 130 126.74

If you look at the numbers both sets of AEP rank the best boots for you in the same order. The last 3 boots are ones you shouldn't even bother getting, while any of the first 3 are pretty good for you.
So even if you think your numbers are goofball values, it ended up not mattering when it comes time to choose your boots in SSC/Eye.

Last edited by Rapparee : 10/31/07 at 5:25 PM. Reason: added some example numbers:
#4432SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Disquette
Skiace, can you please post a screenshot of your input screens on the sim (or type them all out)?
#4433SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Skiace
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Skiace, can you please post a screenshot of your input screens on the sim (or type them all out)?
This was the last quick run with current stats, (old belt) though the inputs are the same as the 5x10,000 that I did a week ago.



Procs:
MH-WF/dragonstrike
OH-WF/Mongoose
Hourglass
RED

Buffs:
Kings (but base stats are without unfortunately)
MotW
LotP
Major Agi elixer
SoE
Battle Shout
STR food

Last edited by Skiace : 10/31/07 at 6:27 PM.
#4434SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pembosa
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Suppose you have that 1000 DPS with 0% crit. Now suppose you gain a 1% chance to crit, from ~24 Agi or crit rating. Your damage now becomes
DPStotal = DPShit + DPScrit
DPStotal = 0.99*1000 + 2*0.1*1000
DPStotal = 990 + 20 = 1010
You gained (1010-1000)/1000 = 1% damage.

Now, suppose you had 50% crit.
Your damage would have been
DPStotal = 0.5*1000 + 2*0.5*1000
DPStotal = 1500
Gain 1% crit again from ~24 agi or crit rating
DPStotal = 0.49*1000 + 2*0.51*1000
DPStotal = 1510
You gained (1510-1500)/1500 = 0.667% damage.
Thanks for the responses, that's helped me sort this out in my head a bit better.

Now another question. If you're a newb shaman who's just stumbled across this thread and you now see that all your weapon/stat choices to date are suboptimal, what would you do to correct the situation and in what order?

Of course I'm talking about myself:
  1. I've valued hit % and crit % equally.
  2. My off hand is the a Merciless Gladiator off hand with a 1.50 attack speed (which sounds like a waste of arena points now that I've read this thread).
  3. I've three possible main hand weapons: 1.40, 1.50 and 2.40 speed (feltooh eviscerator, emerald ripper, and big bad wolf's paw, respectively).
  4. I use rockbiter on my offhand (*gasp*).
  5. I've focussed on Agility and hit rating for my gem slots rather than strength.

So, do these numbers/weights only really apply once I've gotten myself a decent 2.4-2.6 speed offhand weapon or is there an order to how I'd get myself back on the "right" path.

I'm not necessarily looking for specific advice that'd only be valuable to myself, but rather more general advice to any newb shaman who's doing things "wrong" but want's to do things "right".

I guess my thought process is sort of like this: Okay, I've fallen off the wagon. What's the 10-step process for getting back on again?
#4435SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Xoya
Absolute first thing to do: get appropriate speed weapons (2.6/2.6 greens if you need to) and put WF5/WF5 on both. This should be doable in 5 minutes of searching the auction house or a few days of heroic running/honor grinding.

Next thing to do, if you have the money: resocket all your gems. Consider this: a 6 strength gem is worth more AEP with the starting AEP values (without Kings) than an 8 hit gem, so if you've got 8 hit gems replace those with 6 strength gems at the -very- least.

Next thing to do: chances are, if you're gearing yourself improperly, you're not taking full advantage of all the revered+ rep rewards and crafted items. For example, there are some blue leather shoulders from Kurenai revered that are pretty freakin' amazing till you can upgrade them with t4/leather Kara shoulders, and I'd venture a guess that most "newbie" enhancement shamans don't know about them.

Edit: [Blackened Leather Spaulders]
They're an upgrade for you, too, now that I've checked out your armory. Also, Kaliban's Class Gear Planner is a useful site for finding gear though there is no option for having it choose leather gear.

Last edited by Xoya : 10/31/07 at 7:35 PM.
#4436SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Myul
Hit and Crit can be equally for personal aep values, you should just check Yo's sim (or another one, linked in the beginning post).

Steps:
1. Read through posting #1 over and over again, print it and learn to love it.
2. Get everything enchanted properly.
3. Regem your gear to [Bold Living Ruby] for red sockets, [Sovereign Nightseye] for blue sockets and [Inscribed Noble Topaz] for yellow sockets.
4. Farm mats for [Runic Hammer].
5. Get an arena 5on5 (leecher) team and run with it for 6-7 weeks and receive your [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] or [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler].
6. Farm as much [Badge of Justice] (200 possible) for patch 2.3 and the new loot.
7. Get another MG Weapon.
8. Become #1 in epeen meters.
9. ????
10. You are beloved, rich and famous now.

Edit: You can buy 2 very (2.8 speed) slow weapons in Netherstorm (Stormspire or Eco-Dome.., can't remember exatly) and run some tests versus the blasted lands mobs and compare it to you gear, especially the offhand could be better for the moment. [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] isn't that bad and should do it for the moment.
Note: BBWP and [The Decapitator] will become one-hand weapons with the next patch, so don't throw them away!
#4437SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pembosa
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
Absolute first thing to do: get appropriate speed weapons (2.6/2.6 greens if you need to) and put WF5/WF5 on both. This should be doable in 5 minutes of searching the auction house or a few days of heroic running/honor grinding.

Next thing to do, if you have the money: resocket all your gems. Consider this: a 6 strength gem is worth more AEP with the starting AEP values (without Kings) than an 8 hit gem, so if you've got 8 hit gems replace those with 6 strength gems at the -very- least.

Next thing to do: chances are, if you're gearing yourself improperly, you're not taking full advantage of all the revered+ rep rewards and crafted items. For example, there are some blue leather shoulders from Kurenai revered that are pretty freakin' amazing till you can upgrade them with t4/leather Kara shoulders, and I'd venture a guess that most "newbie" enhancement shamans don't know about them.

Edit: [Blackened Leather Spaulders]

They're an upgrade for you, too, now that I've checked out your armory.
It's hard to swallow that I should replace an epic with a rare, but I see what you mean. If I *really* want to do the most DPS that's what I gotta do. Is a 2.5 main hand good enough or is 2.6 a must have?
#4438SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by pembosa View Post
It's hard to swallow that I should replace an epic with a rare, but I see what you mean. If I *really* want to do the most DPS that's what I gotta do. Is a 2.5 main hand good enough or is 2.6 a must have?
2.5 is perfectly fine till you can pick up a 2.6 with higher DPS. The extra dps on the mainhand will compensate for the lack of slower speed in this case if you pick up one of those 2.6/2.7 offhands.
#4439SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pembosa
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
Hit and Crit can be equally for personal aep values, you should just check Yo's sim (or another one, linked in the beginning post).

Steps:
1. Read through posting #1 over and over again, print it and learn to love it.
2. Get everything enchanted properly.
3. Regem your gear to [Bold Living Ruby] for red sockets, [Sovereign Nightseye] for blue sockets and [Inscribed Noble Topaz] for yellow sockets.
4. Farm mats for [Runic Hammer].
5. Get an arena 5on5 (leecher) team and run with it for 6-7 weeks and receive your [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] or [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler].
6. Farm as much [Badge of Justice] (200 possible) for patch 2.3 and the new loot.
7. Get another MG Weapon.
8. Become #1 in epeen meters.
9. ????
10. You are beloved, rich and famous now.

Edit: You can buy 2 very (2.8 speed) slow weapons in Netherstorm (Stormspire or Eco-Dome.., can't remember exatly) and run some tests versus the blasted lands mobs and compare it to you gear, especially the offhand could be better for the moment. [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] isn't that bad and should do it for the moment.
Note: BBWP and [The Decapitator] will become one-hand weapons with the next patch, so don't throw them away!
I just wish I'd have read this last week, we ran Kara over the weekend and I passed on both [Fool's Bane] ( to a rogue) *and* [The Decapitator] (to a fury warrior). *slap head*
#4440SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
◊ Malan
Skiace - you need to run the sim more than once. Shaman DPS is streaky and prone to silly luck driven RNG inflation/deflation of numbers. Run it 5-6 times. See if any of the AEP are outliers. Discard the outliers, average the ones that are pretty close in value, and use those.

As an example I did exactly this today. (While at work... supposedly while doing "work") I ran the sim 5 times at 1000 hours and got some pretty crazy outliers for a few values. Then I ran it 5 more times at 5000 hours each and got 4 sets that were very close to the 1000 hours numbers, so I took those 4 and averaged them. My very first run of the sim was a huge outlier though, it had some really wonky values.

Originally Posted by Skiace
Buffs:
Kings (but base stats are without unfortunately)
Ok, bad. Don't do that. Yo added a Q/A that addresses this issue - if you put kings, the sim expects your crit and AP values to already include the extra 10%, the sim has no way to do that for you. Your values may look odd because of this.

I'd also add that you really need to keep in mind that the "baseline" AEP stats were generated from a model that had around 2500 AP, 30% Crit, some value of Hit that I can't remember. Your stats aren't exactly there, so you're going to differ.

Last edited by Malan : 10/31/07 at 10:52 PM.
#4441SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by LazyJoe View Post
Well, it looks like your calculations about RED are totally wrong because your crit percentage is calculated like most people do, ie not the way it really works inside an attack table.

I'm cureently having ~30% crit unbuffed, let's say my average crit rating in raid situation is 40% (pretty easy to reach with kings, MotW, the feral aura and double mongoose enchant.... if i drop GoA i have more than 50% when the two mongooose proc, yes i'm a crit lover )

So my attack table on a boss looks like this :

13,3% miss
5,6% dodge
25% glancing blows
16,1% regular hit
40% crit

To simplify things, if I assume a regular white hit to be 100 damage, we have :

16,1% * 100 = 16,1 dps from hit damage
25% * 0.7 * 100 = 17,5 dps from glancing blows
40% * 2 * 100 = 80 dps from crits

so 113,6 dps, with a very significant part coming from crits

now if i have add the RED effect, crits will do

40% * 2 * 1.03 * 100 = 82,4 dps

This leads to a total of 116 dps with RED.

116/113,4 = 1,021 so the RED is a 2,1 % dps increase in my situation
Sigh, you're right about that, I forgot to account for misses and dodges. The actual equation should be:

FinalDPS = (CritRate * OriginalDPS * 2 * REDmultiplier) + [1 - (CritRate + DodgeRate + MissRate + ParryRate) ] * OriginalDPS
And once you have your OriginalDPS, instead of just multiplying by CritRate, you use the equation:

DPSwithCrits = (CritRate * OriginalDPS * 2) + [1 - (CritRate + DodgeRate + MissRate + ParryRate) ] * OriginalDPS
Then:

FinalDps - DPSwithCrits = RED contribution
The less crit you have, relative to hit and expertise, the less DPS contribution from RED. My earlier calculations show the value of RED if you never get a miss, dodge, or parry, making the values calculated for 1000 physical DPS with 30% crit rate (7 or 13.5 DPS) the minimum value of a RED.
#4442SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Skiace
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Skiace - you need to run the sim more than once. Shaman DPS is streaky and prone to silly luck driven RNG inflation/deflation of numbers. Run it 5-6 times. See if any of the AEP are outliers. Discard the outliers, average the ones that are pretty close in value, and use those.

As an example I did exactly this today. (While at work... supposedly while doing "work") I ran the sim 5 times at 1000 hours and got some pretty crazy outliers for a few values. Then I ran it 5 more times at 5000 hours each and got 4 sets that were very close to the 1000 hours numbers, so I took those 4 and averaged them. My very first run of the sim was a huge outlier though, it had some really wonky values.


Ok, bad. Don't do that. Yo added a Q/A that addresses this issue - if you put kings, the sim expects your crit and AP values to already include the extra 10%, the sim has no way to do that for you. Your values may look odd because of this.

I'd also add that you really need to keep in mind that the "baseline" AEP stats were generated from a model that had around 2500 AP, 30% Crit, some value of Hit that I can't remember. Your stats aren't exactly there, so you're going to differ.
As I mentioned in the first post, the "oddball" values came from an average of 5 tests at 10,000 each. The screenshot is just to show what I was inputing.

I know the kings issue is bad, so that could be the issue (though it would surprise me).

As for the baseline stats compared to mine, I have a around 2700ap/32% crit raid buffed; I was under the impression that the sim values are to be unbuffed (except kings).


edit: Running another 5 tests at 4000 without kings. If I get more typical numbers I'll just forget about it.

edit2: Results below


Last edited by Skiace : 11/01/07 at 1:25 AM.
#4443SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Jerem View Post
I never really looked at Expertise like this.
(I never really looked at it AT ALL, to be honest).

So, if I understand correctly, any one of your swings will result in one of the followings :
- Normal Hit
- Miss (number can be decreased by +hit)
- Dodge (number can be decreased by +expertise)
- Parry (number can be decreased/cancelled by positionning)
- Crit (number can be increased by +crit/+agi)

Right ?
You forgot:

Block
Glancing Blow

And it is in a specific order, namely:

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Glancing Blow (only players and pets versus mobs)
Block
Critical
ordinary hit

This of course is for white damage, as the aforementioned 2 roll system may or may not exist for yellow damage.
#4444SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Patonus
Ok, I have this weird conflict. Using the weapon AEP scoring system...

Netherbane gives Total OH AEP = 447.05

Yet my newly acquired Rising Tide gives Total OH AEP = 444.14


So...does this mean that I should just clearly continue using Netherbane over Rising Tide?
#4445SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Mengus
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
6. Farm as much [Badge of Justice] (200 possible) for patch 2.3 and the new loot.
Why just 200? Based on what I see, it's 315 for me for ENH upgrades, not to mention close to the same amount in Resto and Elemental upgrades as well.

Last edited by Mengus : 11/01/07 at 3:17 AM.
#4446SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Kyrious
200 is the current cap for badges per stack. I assume it's the global cap

Last edited by Kyrious : 11/01/07 at 5:30 AM. Reason: lolresearch
#4447SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3daveqstone
WF and Hit

Originally Posted by Ghando View Post
Might be worthwhile to dispel some common misconceptions and set in stone a couple things, such as:
--Windfury Weapon suffers neither from the OH 50% penalty for OH procs, nor the dual-wield 24% miss rate. This means that (assuming identical weapons), MH and OH procs are identical.
i DO understand that "you can not crit when you miss" is FALSE (atack table)

but i DO NOT understand why WF does not suffer the miss rate. You can get WF when you miss ?
I doubt that , when i was at 62lvl i start to skill 2h axe (blood furnace drop). I had about 170 2h axe rating so i had a LOT of misses , i didnt get any WF proc at the miss hit.
#4448SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
This was answered somewhere on the last page or 2... Sigh.

Anyway, no Windfury can't proc off a miss. But due to the Windfury mechanics and procrate you'll never have Windfury on cooldown for longer than a few seconds. That's why Hit isn't THAT important.
#4449SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nisall
He means the following (I think)

I know it won't happen due to talents, but lets say you have less than +9% hit. Since you aren't hit capped for special attacks it is possible the WF swings will miss eventhough the white swing that procced it hit. So he is saying is that WF is a special (yellow) attack and therefore only has a 9% hit cap instead of the 28% dualwield white miss chance.
#4450SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
LazyJoe
First you never miss with stormstrike even with 0 +hit, which is a significant part of your total hits (around 16% with 2.6 weapons).

Next, as it has been said many times, you spend a lot of time inside the WF cooldown, and so most of your miss happen during the cooldown. Increasing your hit rate will have an effect to your windfury procs indeed, but it will be a minimal one, in fact you will mostly increase your number of hits inside the cooldown without increasing your number of windfury procs.

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 6:55 AM.
#4451SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
LazyJoe
First you never miss with stormstrike even with 0 +hit, which is a significant part of your total hits (around 16% with 2.6 weapons).

Next, as it has been said many times, you spend a lot of time inside the WF cooldown, and so most of your miss happen during the cooldown. Increasing your hit rate will have an effect to your windfury procs indeed, but it will be a minimal one, in fact you will mostly increase your number of hits inside the cooldown without increasing your number of windfury procs.

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 7:55 AM.
#4452SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3daveqstone
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
This was answered somewhere on the last page or 2... Sigh.

Anyway, no Windfury can't proc off a miss. But due to the Windfury mechanics and procrate you'll never have Windfury on cooldown for longer than a few seconds. That's why Hit isn't THAT important.
OK , now its more clear.

Hit maybe isnt THAT important , but with just +9% from talents you have base 17% miss rate. 21% agains a boss. At every fifth atack you have no chance WF proc , with low or none haste ratings it is a lot IMO.

What i want to say that in the Theorycraft is written that hit rating changes only 45-50% of our damage (white attacks , +9% hit from talents). I say hit rating also lowers the time between WF procs.
With high haste rating and crit chance this influence is very low , but without haste it has some kind of importance, becose i want my WF as often as possible.
#4453SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Patonus View Post
Ok, I have this weird conflict. Using the weapon AEP scoring system...

Netherbane gives Total OH AEP = 447.05

Yet my newly acquired Rising Tide gives Total OH AEP = 444.14


So...does this mean that I should just clearly continue using Netherbane over Rising Tide?
AEP difference is pretty small only 3. And this whole weapon AEP is pretty new threory. I personally use 8.48 mh Wdps AEP and 4.24 oh Wdps AEP. If you use those Rising tide > Netherbane. But my suggest is put your Rising tide to mainhand then choose Merciless gladiator pummeler or Netherbane to OH. Then just wait/hope that Syphon of the Nathrezim drop.
#4454SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3daveqstone
Originally Posted by LazyJoe View Post

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).
First i was really confused , but thinking on it i know what you mean , but this CAN be right and CAN be wrong. No one can really say that with low hit rating you will miss during WF cooldown and hit during no WF cooldown.

Wait , that would be interessing adon. Can anyone do this ? Adon that will show how much % of attacks you miss while the WF cooldown is ON and how much % while is OFF
#4455SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by daveqstone View Post
OK , now its more clear.

Hit maybe isnt THAT important , but with just +9% from talents you have base 17% miss rate. 21% agains a boss. At every fifth atack you have no chance WF proc , with low or none haste ratings it is a lot IMO.

What i want to say that in the Theorycraft is written that hit rating changes only 45-50% of our damage (white attacks , +9% hit from talents). I say hit rating also lowers the time between WF procs.
With high haste rating and crit chance this influence is very low , but without haste it has some kind of importance, becose i want my WF as often as possible.
Perhaps it would help us understand your point if you wrote a small "combat simulator", maybe in visual basic, maybe in java, your choice really, to mimic combat, taking into account such things. Then you could show us the actually affect of hit rating vis a vis windfury on dps, and we could look at numbers and results instead of just feelings.
#4456SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
LazyJoe
Originally Posted by daveqstone View Post
OK , now its more clear.

Hit maybe isnt THAT important , but with just +9% from talents you have base 17% miss rate. 21% agains a boss. At every fifth atack you have no chance WF proc , with low or none haste ratings it is a lot IMO.
Just to clear things up :

Against a same level opponent you have 6% miss, against a lvl 73 or boss it is 9%.

So when dual wielding it is 25% and 28% respectively (this has been discussed and proved some time ago in another thread).

So with 9% from talents you have 19% miss against a boss.


Anyway if you use Yo's simulator it doesn't speculate on the value of hit, it just simulates a (long) fight, so the benefit of hits in WF procs is already taken into account when the AEP is calculated. And all the results are showing hit is the less valuable stat for us (for example, 1% crit has generally the same AEP value as 1,5% to 2% hit).

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 8:47 AM.
#4457SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
I'm questioning the use of this topic at the moment. More then half of the posts on the last 10+ (yes, I pulled this number out my ass but I'm sure more people here share the feelings) is from new posters comming here questioning our hit rating results or just being plain ignorant in general.

Maybe some special "stop annoying everyone with your feelings/questions about hit rating/etc" moderation might be needed for this topic?
#4458SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by LazyJoe View Post
First you never miss with stormstrike even with 0 +hit, which is a significant part of your total hits (around 16% with 2.6 weapons).

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).
Stormstrike certainly can, and will, miss if you have 0 Hit, and it should generally be 10% of your DPS, not 16%, and its not dependent on the weapon speed. If you were using daggers I would expect the damage ratio to be 10% for SS same as with 2.6 weapons.

Increasing your Hit does NOT reduce your WF "proc rate". Its going to be 36% when DW or 20% otherwise, no matter what your +hit is. Increasing your hit changes the % of your total damage that WF will equate to, and that's all. The proc rate is, with some variation from the RNG, fairly constant.


The amount of absurd logic over the past 4 pages (2 days of posts) is astounding. And I agree with the poster above me. Stop bothering us with posts that say "well I feel like hit is more important." We don't care what you feel. If you don't want to accept the mathematics of the situation, or the simulated combat results that back up our findings, and even the empirical results from WWS parses, then don't. Go on your merry way, but stop posting about about it.

Last edited by Malan : 11/01/07 at 9:28 AM.
#4459SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
LazyJoe
Well sorry i simplified a bit too much on this sentence

But well, if you only have the 9% hit from talent stormstrike never misses even on a boss, but still can be parried, dodged or blocked (as well as the normal hits).


The discussion is about hits proccing WF, so i was only taking into account the normal hits, not the windfury procs. If you consider hitting with always flurried 2.6 weapons (so 2.0 between hits) and no misses, SS is exactly 16,6666....% of your total hits (parries, dodges or blocks don't affect this because you have the same amount in white and yellow attacks). If you are not hit capped, SS is an even bigger part of your hits, it comes around 20% with ~100 hit.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that a significant part of our windfury are coming from stromstrike, and increasing hit will never ever increase those procs, this is one of the facts that makes hit less important for WF procs.


Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Increasing your Hit does NOT reduce your WF "proc rate". Its going to be 36% when DW or 20% otherwise, no matter what your +hit is.
Sorry again, I was speaking about the global proc rate, I mean we all know that WF has a 20% or 36% proc rate on eligible hits, but the hidden cooldown and weapon speed, as well as your hit rating affect the real proc rate. We all know that using slow weapons leads to a better global proc rate. The same way, increasing your hit leads to a somewhat worse global proc rate because you will get more normal hits while gaining few WF procs.

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 9:48 AM.
#4460SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krom[Fenris]
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's looking as though after 2.3 enchant setup will ideally be executioner/mongoose. Assuming an RT/syphon MH/OH combo, would you put the executioner on the MH?
#4461SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
There's no evidence that either hand affects the proc rate, so it really doesn't matter. You can put it on either hand.
#4462SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Patonus
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
AEP difference is pretty small only 3. And this whole weapon AEP is pretty new threory. I personally use 8.48 mh Wdps AEP and 4.24 oh Wdps AEP. If you use those Rising tide > Netherbane. But my suggest is put your Rising tide to mainhand then choose Merciless gladiator pummeler or Netherbane to OH. Then just wait/hope that Syphon of the Nathrezim drop.
Thanks for responding! No one else did :-P

The issue I have with that is that the Merciless Weapon is ALSO more AEP than Rising Tide in the MH. Looks as if RT is worthless!
#4463SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Time to hand out moderation privileges to Malan just for this thread!

About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?
#4464SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Kombinat
Generally accepted thinking is that an enhancement shaman's DPS is made up, in rough numbers, of about 40% both white damage and windfury, with shocks and stormstrike taking up the last 20%, 10% each.

Generally accepted spec is to include all the +hit talents, for 9% hit in total. This hit caps, and then some, both windfury and stormstrike. You'll still get blocks, glancings, etc, but no misses.

So, 50% as a rough number is hit capped without any more + hit from gear. Given the existence of the 3 second WF cooldown, +hit loses any real relevance. It doesn't scale as well as crit, and hitting more often isn't all that helpful if WF is on CD. Hit effects 40% of your dps, where crit and AP effect 90%.

(Figures mentioned in this post are rough, vague recollections based on my reading this thread front to back several times. Apologies for their lack of mathematical concreteness)

Last edited by Kombinat : 11/01/07 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Punctuation. I hate my OCD.
#4465SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Time to hand out moderation privileges to Malan just for this thread!

About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?
Rob worked it out at some point in this thread I think, or maybe someone linked it from another thread, I forget which. I believe that the ballpark figure was that Mongoose and Executioner basically provide the same DPS increase.
#4466SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Yeah I saw that, figured maybe by now more people had run some tests on the PTR. Armor Penetration is nice I guess, but it's damn pretty seeying 50%+ crit on your character tab :P
#4467SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Katherine
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?
Search is your friend.
[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers
#4468SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Katherine View Post
My bad, I was planning on asking for newer maths then those. As in maths from the latest PTR push, who knows whether Executioner not double stacking was intended or not.
#4469SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Originally Posted by Patonus View Post
Thanks for responding! No one else did :-P

The issue I have with that is that the Merciless Weapon is ALSO more AEP than Rising Tide in the MH. Looks as if RT is worthless!
That can't be correct. Rising tide has higher dps and top end dmg than the MGC. Even without thinking about SS or WF, the MGC would need minimum 35 more AP to equal the RT in dps. The reality is it's probably more.

AEP is a guideline, not law. Please use common sense when making judgments about weapon upgrades.
#4470SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I just did a quick calc of Rising Tide for MH and OH. MH shows it better than Arena S2 weapons at 978.2 AEP vs 962 AEP, OH shows it about even with Netherbane for the OH at 444.1 vs 447 AEP. Conclusion - if you have Rising Tide and Netherbane, use RT in the MH.
#4471SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris] View Post
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's looking as though after 2.3 enchant setup will ideally be executioner/mongoose. Assuming an RT/syphon MH/OH combo, would you put the executioner on the MH?

I would put mongoose on your MH, executioner on OH. This is solely for the reason that if you have to put on a shield, you want your wep in the Mh to have mongoose as it gives a slight bit more survivability then executioner.
#4472SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Patonus
Originally Posted by drats View Post
That can't be correct. Rising tide has higher dps and top end dmg than the MGC. Even without thinking about SS or WF, the MGC would need minimum 35 more AP to equal the RT in dps. The reality is it's probably more.

AEP is a guideline, not law. Please use common sense when making judgments about weapon upgrades.
Please look at the weapons before stating wrong information. Rising Tide only has a 313 High End dmg and MGP has 330.
#4473SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
No, he was right. Look up 2 posts where I did the calculations myself.
#4474SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
Quite hard to define the real bonus of Executionner no ? As if i've understood well (and thinking of how armor works) the more you have armor penetration the more you hit harder, so with the coming of new items with armor penetration (in ZA and Arena) we would be able to have a good amount of passive armor penetration, dealing more damages when execuionner proc than someone without any passive armor penetration proccing it ? To my mind executionner can be definetely better than moongoose at some point of passive armor penetration
#4475SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Actually, I goofed on the high end damage. RT has a higher bottom end dps (208 compared to MGC 177), but a lower top end (313 vs 330). I made the mistake of thinking a higher dps weapon of the same speed would have a higher bottom and top for damage. Sorry, common sense failed me that time.

But my point of weapon dps still stands, it would takes a decent amount of stats to make up for a 3 point dps difference for a MH. For an offhand the difference is less clear.
#4476SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pilger81
I have an off topic problem.

During today i arrived at page 60 reading the thread.
Is there any possibility to delete redundant posts?

There are a bunch of double questions(including mine from yesterday ) it is really annoying to read it.
But if I avoid reading it all there will be even more doubleposts.

To begin all posts I did the last days(including this one) could be deleted without loosing anything.
Make the post to 20 sites again....

I and i think most of us would appreciate this.
#4477SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
I'm pretty sure all of this information will be transferred to a wiki at some point in the near future. Malan has hinted at it multiple times.

Edit: After reading the OP, you can probably just read the last 10-20 pages, then use the search feature to answer most questions.
#4478SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Boethius is getting some new EJ server stuff set up and then hopefully we'll see the wiki open soon. The wiki will need more fine tuning - I didn't just copy/paste, I took it as a good time to rewrite a lot of stuff and add better documentation. I stopped updating it a few weeks ago though when 2.3 changes started rolling in, it was too much work keeping 2 pages simultaneously updated that each use different formating tags.

Are there any major tidbits of info that I have not updated the OP with? I suppose a real FAQ section might at some point be ok for some of the more minor questions, but I think that for the most part every question you could ask can be reasonably inferred from the info available.
#4479SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Kyrious View Post
200 is the current cap for badges per stack. I assume it's the global cap
While it's the cap per stack, there's no global cap afaik. It'd be (Unique X) in the tooltip.

I have 316 in my bank (;
#4480SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pilger81
So then because I have another question after not found it with search function.
(i am sure it ws mentioned beforebut still i don't find it...)

My idea is that with every haste rating I will have to give +hit a higher rating?!
Say 50% is white damage.
With +haste only white damage will be raised so after that we'll have 55% white damage.
Do I have to give +hit a 10% higher rating then?

Any numbercrunching done for this problem yet?
#4481SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Don't try to manually adjust your stat weights, if thats what you mean.

But yes that's kind of the function between Haste and Hit - the more haste you get the more valuable the extra Hit Rating will become.
#4482SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Aximous
I noticed on ptr that expertise doesn't seem to scale the same way as hit rating between points and ratings. Hit rating is 15.8 rating=1% hit while according to the character sheet 5 expertise is 1 point of expertise wich is 0.25% dodge and parry reduction so 20 expertise rating would be 1% reduction in parry and dodge. I think that should twist the calculations a bit.

Proof screenshot:


This was the formula that Rob made
Expertise AEP = HIT AEP * (White % + Yellow %)/White %
If I'm correct then this should turn into something like this:
Expertise AEP = (HIT AEP * 15.8 )/20* (White % + Yellow %)/White %
Ignore this if I got wrong conclusion.

Last edited by Aximous : 11/01/07 at 5:49 PM.
#4483SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Rob
As I understand it, 15.8 expertise rating = 4 expertise = -1% dodge. 10 expertise rating, in your example, is equivalent to 2.53 expertise, which is rounded down to 2 expertise. So you're right that there are some discrepancies (because expertise rounds) but multiplying by 15.8/20 isn't a correct way to deal with those.

Technically, you need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 15.8, take the floor, and multiply by 15.8 again, just to convert it into hit AEP. This gives us a really nasty problem, which is that expertise rating is not only non-linear in AEP, it's not even contiguous: a jump of one expertise rating may have 0 AEP (example: we go from 14 expertise rating to 15 expertise rating) while a jump of two expertise rating at the same point may have AEP equivalent to about 4/15.8*hit (we go from 14 expertise rating to 16 and thus 0.75% dodge reduction to 1.00% dodge reduction).

The best way, IMO, to value items at this point, is to use the provided formula. Although, I'll admit I haven't considered the impact that crits/glances will have on that, but I don't think it's been conclusively proven the mechanic by which expertise works (i.e. are dodges converted to hits, or are dodges removed from the attack table? in the former scenario, crits/(crits+hits) decreases but in the latter scenario, crits/(crits+hits) remains constant.)

Last edited by Rob : 11/01/07 at 5:58 PM.
#4484SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aximous
Why I multiplied it by 15.8/20 is because I thought that 20 rating turns into 1% but it seems I forgot about rounding
#4485SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Weem
Loot comparison spreadsheets

With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Files here: http://hosted.filefront.com/bemory23

There are four different spreadsheets. "Pre-raid" with default values from the first page for entry raid shaman. "Low Raid" with default values from the first page. "Mid Raid" with default values being my current values. "High Raid" with default values belonging to Sebudai's from one of his posts:

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .

Last edited by Weem : 11/03/07 at 6:02 PM. Reason: Fixed links again
#4486SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I have updated the section on Weapon Expertise with Rob's explanation above.

It seems I broke the Pawn string in the OP, I tried importing that last night and Pawn kept bitching that it didn't recognize it. Anyone see a glaring mistake?

Weem, checking those out now, might include them in the OP. Did you include all the new 2.3 items?
#4487SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
Thanks for your job Weem it's great ! i hope you'll add S3 Arena gear and other 2.3 items soon, 'cause i don't really understand how to add them by myself
#4488SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Pre-raid, default values from the first page for entry raid shaman:
Pre-raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Low raid, default values from the first page:
Low_Raid_Loot_comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Mid raid, default values are my AEP:
Mid_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

High raid, default values are Sebudai's from one of his posts:
High_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .
Thank for your effort.
Sockets
Blue Socket	
Red Socket	
Yellow Socket	
Meta Socket
This is how thottbot values sockets. Also you can treat weapon skill like expertise.
Thottbot dont count socket bonus like lootzor does but I prefer thottbot.
#4489SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Irukandji
Yo's Simulator

Great Thread - thanks

I am having trouble with getting Yo's Simulator to work. I have the latest edition of java installed and have tried it on both WinXP pro / KDE 3.5 in mozilla, ie, konqueror - but it was working for me a few weeks ago, is anyone else having a similar issue? I also get a small java popup window in the corner from it that links to a russian website - its not malware or anything on my computer, its definitely from the applet.

Sorry to pollute the thread, i just thought other people may be having the same issues.
#4490SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Glayde
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Pre-raid, default values from the first page for entry raid shaman:
Pre-raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Low raid, default values from the first page:
Low_Raid_Loot_comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Mid raid, default values are my AEP:
Mid_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

High raid, default values are Sebudai's from one of his posts:
High_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .

I thought the thottbot item scoring lets you assign scores to sockets, I use the thottbot sorting to glance at gear by slot.
#4491SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Donjo
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Pre-raid, default values from the first page for entry raid shaman:
Pre-raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Low raid, default values from the first page:
Low_Raid_Loot_comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Mid raid, default values are my AEP:
Mid_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

High raid, default values are Sebudai's from one of his posts:
High_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .
I really appreciate it Weem, is there any chance you could make a 10-Man and under edition though? Just including PvP Gear, Kara/ZA and heroics?
#4492SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
He made one that says Pre-Raid right in that post.

Guys Lootzor works perfectly fine for everything until you're in T6 content. Yah the site isnt being updated but unless you need to view things with -Armor or Haste on it, it works fine.
#4493SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Weem
Malan: I do have all the 2.3 items unless I accidentally missed an item (I wouldn't put it passed me to do so).

Lorka: I hadn't intended to included the S3 items. However, upon further review they aren't too far off from what one would have going into Mid Raid content so I'll put them there.

Glayde/Pitbuller: I don't mess with Thottbot as I never liked the way it worked. The thing with sockets is second-hand knowledge. At one point I don't think it did include sockets which it seems is no longer the case.

And Malan is right about Lootzor. It does work fine unless your item will have expertise, haste or ignore armor.
#4494SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bubbahoof
Thanks for all the great information in this thread.

I have never been all that happy with Lootzor because it always puts BOP crafted items in the list which require a profession I don't have.

Is the link for the Mid Raid xls sheet posted by Weem working correctly? Whenever I try to use it, I get thrown back to the main filefront.com page. The low raid .xls link forks fine for me.
#4495SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Guys Lootzor works perfectly fine for everything until you're in T6 content. Yah the site isnt being updated but unless you need to view things with -Armor or Haste on it, it works fine.
With the introduction of Zul'aman, "until you're in T6 content" becomes "until you've cleared Karazhan" and so Lootzor is just a pretty weak tool overall at this point.
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
Glayde/Pitbuller: I don't mess with Thottbot as I never liked the way it worked. The thing with sockets is second-hand knowledge. At one point I don't think it did include sockets which it seems is no longer the case.
I think the issue is/was inconsistency in including socket bonuses, and that it has bugged values for certain items (e.g. Skyshatter gloves score lower than Cataclysm somehow and the issue isn't with my scoring parameters). I'm using Thottbot, but with a firm eye towards "sanity checking" the numbers. I really wish Wowhead would integrate a tool like this, since everyone else seems to be getting it wrong somehow.

Last edited by Rob : 11/02/07 at 5:56 PM.
#4496SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
Lorka: I hadn't intended to included the S3 items. However, upon further review they aren't too far off from what one would have going into Mid Raid content so I'll put them there.
Thanks if you do it altought i hope to see those items in high raid too, as compared to some pve items they can make a good alternative. Anyway don't bother if it's too much work i can work with two different sheets if i have to
#4497SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Bubbahoof View Post
Thanks for all the great information in this thread.

I have never been all that happy with Lootzor because it always puts BOP crafted items in the list which require a profession I don't have.

Is the link for the Mid Raid xls sheet posted by Weem working correctly? Whenever I try to use it, I get thrown back to the main filefront.com page. The low raid .xls link forks fine for me.
That was my fault. I re-uploaded the Mid Raid but failed to update the link. Should be working fine now.
#4498SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Irukandji View Post
Great Thread - thanks

I am having trouble with getting Yo's Simulator to work. I have the latest edition of java installed and have tried it on both WinXP pro / KDE 3.5 in mozilla, ie, konqueror - but it was working for me a few weeks ago, is anyone else having a similar issue? I also get a small java popup window in the corner from it that links to a russian website - its not malware or anything on my computer, its definitely from the applet.

Sorry to pollute the thread, i just thought other people may be having the same issues.
Try closing down programs like WoW as well. I was unable to run the sim and wow at the same time until I upgraded to my core 2 duo.
#4499SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Got a semi-off topic for you brainiacs with the Simulators. According to the entry post here, SS and WF are both not normalized. They are also on a 3 second cooldown. Would our DPS be better or worse if they removed the 3 second CD, but normalized the SS and Windfury attacks?
#4500SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oprahwinfury
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
It seems I broke the Pawn string in the OP, I tried importing that last night and Pawn kept bitching that it didn't recognize it. Anyone see a glaring mistake?
I see a missing space.

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater/Tornhoof)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1, ArmorPenetration=0.25 )

This should work
#4751SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Haha, Frost Shock is definitely not a viable option for a shaman's shock rotation.
It can be viable. Tanks get expertise for more TPS and we get 15% more aggro reduce. But we'll see. Anyway if there is no frost mage in the raid it's not worth using.
#4752SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bubbahoof
A question about totem threat -

Flame totems generate their own threat - mobs attack the searing totem instead of the shaman casting it.

How about healing stream totem? Does the shaman or the totem get extra threat for the healing done? With the new + to spell damage, I'm thinking it might be useful to drop healing stream totem in the future, but I wonder how that should effect my threat.

I am very excited about the 30% threat reduction coming, so I'm hesitant to add new sources of threat when I am about to finally stop being threat capped.
#4753SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Bubba: I did some non-conclusive testing and my feeling was, after it, that it does not effect my TPS. My threat is very spikey anyway, and with no +heal the totem was pretty weak. (This is why I say it's non-conclusive)

Edit: Actually, I have used it with a bunch of +heal. When we were doing some Karazan farming runs to gear some of our younglings, I was trying to see how much I could get it to tick for, so I equipped heal gear, popped ZG trinket (best trinket evar) and dropped the totem. It was ticking for >100 and I saw no noticeable threat increase for the fights.
#4754SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Bubbahoof View Post
How about healing stream totem? Does the shaman or the totem get extra threat for the healing done? With the new + to spell damage, I'm thinking it might be useful to drop healing stream totem in the future, but I wonder how that should effect my threat.

I am very excited about the 30% threat reduction coming, so I'm hesitant to add new sources of threat when I am about to finally stop being threat capped.
Remember that heals are 50% threat of the effective healing done. A healing stream totem, even with 700-1000 spell damage, is not going to be a significant contribution of threat.
#4755SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Durigen
There's alot of talk about Totem Twisting. It's a very powerful tool that I have been starting to ween myself off of. The reasons are based around the simple statement that is now on the first page of this guide.

Twisting has it's days numbered. The Dev's are aware of it, and plan to be taking steps to end it. If that is the case, then I would prefer not to supernaturally inflate raid performance only to have it come down . Of course my raid understands this point and agrees. But if the crutch is going to be yanked out from under ya, gotta start learning to walk without.

On a seperate note; I see that Weapon Expertise is being given a series of values. Aren't those values based entirely on attacking your opponent from the front? Chances of attacks being parried from behind is zero. Am I correct?
#4756SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0morgenday
hiyas, i use enhancer to calculate my AEP in game, just updated it today on the 13th before the patch, although i don't think it takes the new armor ignoring stat into account. if anyone knows just curious if i have to calculate that manually or if the mod does it for me. thanks!
#4757SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
It reduces dodge/parry/block. Mobs can dodge, even from the back. You can take a look at WWS parses to observe this too. (I could be wrong, but I believe it's a 5% chance to dodge, 360 degrees)
#4758SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Expertise reduces dodge and parry . Parry is frontal only. Boss mobs have 5.4% dodge and 5.4% or higher parry.
#4759SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Welp, started looking at my talent builds today so I know what to spec tonight, and I'm leaning towards this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I hate the less then 50% filled talents though. I currently run with 5 points in concussion, as the alternatives don't seem to help much in a raid environment. The alternatives usually being totemic focus/anticipation/imp LS.

Here's an elemental hybrid option: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It's pretty close for me, although I'm still fairly sure the 3% hit from resto will still have it beat by a noticeable margin. The utility of 1 more second off shocks is handy, and possibly on par with the increased totem range. (I view the first 8 points in resto as a waste anyway, so the expensive shock talents come out to a wash in that regard) If elemental had a low tier shock crit option (maybe instead of concussion), Elemental Devastation would be a lot more viable.
#4760SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
rava
Originally Posted by Durigen View Post
There's alot of talk about Totem Twisting. It's a very powerful tool that I have been starting to ween myself off of. The reasons are based around the simple statement that is now on the first page of this guide.

Twisting has it's days numbered. The Dev's are aware of it, and plan to be taking steps to end it. If that is the case, then I would prefer not to supernaturally inflate raid performance only to have it come down . Of course my raid understands this point and agrees. But if the crutch is going to be yanked out from under ya, gotta start learning to walk without.

On a seperate note; I see that Weapon Expertise is being given a series of values. Aren't those values based entirely on attacking your opponent from the front? Chances of attacks being parried from behind is zero. Am I correct?
That sounds like the lazy man's eckscuse, "they're going to nerf it so I'm not going to bother doing it". There was nothing in this patch to prevent it and I doubt there will be in any future patches until they revamp the totem system. A nerf to the duration/application of the WF buff can't realistically happen because the game in it's current form is balanced around arena.

I hardly consider twsiting a crutch, it's probably the easiest thing that you can do in a raid. It takes little to no attentiveness(hey look a purple bar), and while the "ficksing" of having wf/goa or wf/ta out at the same time will result in a net loss of raid dps I see zero reason to not abuse the system while you can.

As far as the ele/resto subbing, it will be totally playstyle/raid specific. I don't ever see myself putting less than 14 in resto, but I can only think of a handful of times(including progression) where I have ankhd. The only times I really die are when the shit hits the fan and ankhing would be pointless. If you pay attention to threat, your hp, your surroundings, and your potion/healthstone/bandage cooldown survival should be a nonissue making imp reincarnate useless.(imo!)

Last edited by rava : 11/13/07 at 3:51 PM. Reason: my ecks key is broken
#4761SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ultima88
Shocks

Hi all,

I realize the ideal shock rotation is the fs/es, but I am running into an issue. My guild leader (an elemental shaman, also reads this thread frequently, so may in fact read this) has told me that I cannot use Flame Shock. It takes up a debuff slot that he believes is more valuable for another class.
Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock.

Thanks in advance.
#4762SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by ultima88 View Post
Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock.
Run Demon and watch the debuff count. Don't flame shock when you're at 35+ debuffs. Earth shock otherwise and he can suck it up with less aggro for him. I'm sure he can catch up anyway.

There's no reason to listen to bullshit about pushing off buffs if you aren't near the cap at the time anyway.
#4763SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Shouldn't the argument around elemental/enhance versus enhance/resto revolve around the 5 second CD on shocks versus the +3 hit, more than anything else? Sure the +5% increase in shock damage in nice... I guess. The 10% decrease in mana cost is okay, maybe less important now in 2.3, but the 5 second CD is an increase of 20% in the amount of shocks you can cast. If + melee hit is a non issue since you can get all you need from gear and +6% from the talent. Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
#4764SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grogimer
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf View Post
Shouldn't the argument around elemental/enhance versus enhance/resto revolve around the 5 second CD on shocks versus the +3 hit, more than anything else? Sure the +5% increase in shock damage in nice... I guess. The 10% decrease in mana cost is okay, maybe less important now in 2.3, but the 5 second CD is an increase of 20% in the amount of shocks you can cast. If + melee hit is a non issue since you can get all you need from gear and +6% from the talent. Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
If you guys don't want to believe what has been run into the ground please go and respec. Your loosing 6% to hit because you will loose 3% to your spell hit and 3% to melee which alows you to hit cap your melee specials so you can somewhat ignore to hit from equipment and gems. Overall dps is higher with this build. It was before the patch and it is after the patch. They have already run the numbers. This question has gotten as bad as people coming in here and asking what to hit number should they shoot for.
#4765SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf View Post
Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.

I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.

It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.

Last edited by Malan : 11/13/07 at 6:01 PM.
#4766SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
No, there's also 3% more hit on your white damage associated with Nature's Guidance. 3% of 5% plus 3% of 40% [which is generously low] is better than 25% of 5%.
#4767SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
No, there's also 3% more hit on your white damage associated with Nature's Guidance. 3% of 5% plus 3% of 40% [which is generously low] is better than 25% of 5%.
I'm not saying I'm not on glue here, it's just my damage usually breaks down a little different.
50% white
30% WF
10% shocks
10% SS
1% Romeo Poison

Now this was before I read the first page here. I had 216'ish +hit and only +6% from talents. (I need to do some testing and then I'm sure I'll agree with everyone else.) It's just that I read from here that +hit basically is the last stat to work on and then I read that this patch is all about increasing shock damage.
#4768SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tokageroh
Originally Posted by Unaz View Post
Welp, started looking at my talent builds today so I know what to spec tonight, and I'm leaning towards this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I hate the less then 50% filled talents though. I currently run with 5 points in concussion, as the alternatives don't seem to help much in a raid environment. The alternatives usually being totemic focus/anticipation/imp LS.

Here's an elemental hybrid option: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It's pretty close for me, although I'm still fairly sure the 3% hit from resto will still have it beat by a noticeable margin. The utility of 1 more second off shocks is handy, and possibly on par with the increased totem range. (I view the first 8 points in resto as a waste anyway, so the expensive shock talents come out to a wash in that regard) If elemental had a low tier shock crit option (maybe instead of concussion), Elemental Devastation would be a lot more viable.
I too had thought about this spec but I haven't had the time to do the math on it. Anyone else care to test/theorycraft it?
#4769SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Xaanix
I'm curious if there are any work/predictions on high raid stat weights which are sadly absent from the OP. In eyeballing the changes from low raid to mid raid ratings, it appears like haste rating became significantly more valuable than before.

Of all the gear that gives high raid exclusive stats (armor pen, haste), it appears that only fists of mukoa will actually outshine other high raid alternatives with normal stats like agi/crit/hit/ap.

I'm also interested to know how AP/Str will be weighted now that 2.3 is live. My intuition tells me that crit will be valuable early on, but once you have around 30% crit unbuffed, you'd probably want to favor AP a bit more because of the boost in shock/totem damage.

Based on this intuition, I intend to replace my low end crit based trinkets with AP related trinkets in the near future.

Last edited by Xaanix : 11/13/07 at 10:49 PM.
#4770SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
An alternate look at the benefit of Elemental Devastation:

(Source, values for level 70)
1% hit = 15.76 hit rating
1% crit = 22.08 crit rating

3% hit = 47.28 hit rating
3% crit = 66.24 crit rating

Using the EP numbers from the first post (~T5+):
3% hit = 66.192 EP
3% crit = 132.48 EP

Without doing any further math it should be clear, at this point, that it is not going to work-out in favor of Elemental Devastation.

In order to get the 3% crit for 10 seconds, you have to crit with a shock. You will get 12 shocks per minute, with Concussion. Your base spell crit chance is 5%. (Most likely it will not be noticeably more than that with int, so lets leave it at 5%) This puts Elemental Devastation at 0.6ppm, best case, and totally ignores the effects of spell-misses.

132.48 EP * 0.6ppm * 1/6 (10sec on buff) = 13.248 EP

This is abysmal. Even ignoring n00b errors, which I'm sure I made in those calculations, it should be clear that Elemental Devastation is not a good investment of spec points.
#4771SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0LionsFist
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.

I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.

It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.
20% increase? I would have thought higher...

The 5 second shocks and 5% damage boost increase your shock DPS by 40%.
5 second shocks allow a 4 shock/20 seconds repeatable attack sequence with Stormstrike
(ie. [in format time/spell] 0/SS, 1.5/FlaS, 6.5/ES, 10/SS, 11.5/FlaS, 16.5/ES, 20/SS, repeat]
With 6 second shocks, the rotation goes as follows:
(0/SS, 1.5/FlaS, 7.5/ES, 10/SS, 13.5 FlaS, 20/SS] as the last shock would slow your SS rotation. (in general, my SS damage is higher or close to equal to my shock damage, so I would put SS as a more important rotation to keep up)
As such, with 6 second shocks, you only get 3 shocks every 20 seconds, on a repeatable attack sequence...
This added to the fact that you are getting 5% extra damage on all shocks means that you're getting the benefit of (105+105+105+105/100+100+100) = 1.4 = 40% extra damage.
Now it would depending on whether your shocks benefit you for more than 7.5% of your total DPS, and also would obviously have a lower effect on people who hold their SS's for when WF is off the cooldown. Yet again, that in itself brings about it's own mixed benefits/losses...

And if looking at a pure comparison of the two specs, then the small static extra bonus of ~10 DPS on searing totem is there too :P
#4772SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Xaanix View Post
I'm curious if there are any work/predictions on high raid stat weights which are sadly absent from the OP.
If someone wants to do the finger work of producing an Average T6 AP/Crit/Hit/Weapons set and then run a *lot* of yo's sim against those numbers then we can get some EP values for it. Otherwise, I'm content that at the high end a shaman can figure it out on their own.
#4773SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Complete
Best Shaman PVE Max DPS build in 2.3??
#4774SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.

I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.

It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.
So with my numbers:
Shocks = 10% dps so 20% increase = 1.2*.1 = .12 + 5% more damage = .126 or a 2.6% increase in damage.
3% more hit to 50% damage (assuming no diminishing returns because of too much +hit) = 1.5% more damage from white.
3% more hit to 10% shock damage = .3% more damage from shocks.

It looks like 2.6% increase for better shocks versus 1.8% increase for more hit. Plus my comparison actually favors the +hit since I'm assuming my observed 10% from shocks. My shocks would go down without the 5 second CD. Plus I think it's going to be even more exaggerated with 2.3 when I'll get +525 to +825 bonus damage (depending on procs) from talents.
#4775SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
You know why your breakdown has 10% of damage coming from shocks? It's because you're already specced Elemental as your secondary tree.

In reality you're boosting your contribution from shocks from around 5% to around 10% by virtue of your current spec, which makes a comparison such as you're doing completely invalid. If you spec with 0 points in either elemental or restoration, you will not see 10% contribution from shocks.
#4851SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Aegospotami
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
No its not bad, and I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that those are not empirical figures at all.
Quit spreading that nonsense.
I'm going to call BS on you here because you try to make people look stupid for bringing up the +Hit argument, when it's the one thing you don't have any numbers for.

Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.

And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.

And because we keep seeing the +Hit question popping up, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed a DPS increase when changing from your recommendation (prioritizing only +Hit from talents) and switching to a few pieces of gear that add +Hit. There is no question that +Hit in the 200-range is excessive, but there is every indication that going from around 70-80 +Hit to the 120 - 130 range will lead to a DPS increase.

You've helped a lot of Enhancement Shaman players with your theorycrafting, but it's pretty clear on this issue that, because you see yourself as the authority on these matters, you are reluctant to admit you're wrong. And there's no mistaking, you are wrong here.
#4852SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mbuzi
@Aegospotami - not that Malan needs defending, but wow, just wow. Kings gives a 10% benefit to strength. Comparing inscriptions:
(34*1) + (16*x) = 17*2.2

x = Hit Rating

x would have to equal a mere 0.2125 for them to be equal. No one rational here is suggesting hit rating is meaningless. In fact until you get very near the cap it's value will be > 0.2125 so this line of attack isn't very effective and demonstrates your lack of understanding about what EP is used for.
#4853SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krom[Fenris]
Maybe I'm missing an obvious reason as to why, but since the patch I've been noticing a strange bug. When I cast WF on my main hand weapon, a lot of the time my health drops 5%. I can't think why this would happen at all.
#4854SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krish
Originally Posted by Aegospotami View Post
I'm going to call BS on you here because you try to make people look stupid for bringing up the +Hit argument, when it's the one thing you don't have any numbers for.

Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.

And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.

And because we keep seeing the +Hit question popping up, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed a DPS increase when changing from your recommendation (prioritizing only +Hit from talents) and switching to a few pieces of gear that add +Hit. There is no question that +Hit in the 200-range is excessive, but there is every indication that going from around 70-80 +Hit to the 120 - 130 range will lead to a DPS increase.

You've helped a lot of Enhancement Shaman players with your theorycrafting, but it's pretty clear on this issue that, because you see yourself as the authority on these matters, you are reluctant to admit you're wrong. And there's no mistaking, you are wrong here.
Man are you barking up the wrong tree.

NOBODY is saying that +hit is a bad stat. It is simply not as good as the other yellow-gem option, crit rating. I'm finding it hard to not just dismiss your argument as pure trolling, but 34 AP and 16 hit rating are better than 17 strength.

If you think that hit rating affects the percentage of swings that will crit, you are just wrong. Look into attack tables, do some real research, and then come back here and post your apology. There are a large number of intelligent people here who have put a great deal of time into understanding exactly what's going on behind the scenes to influence DPS in a raid environment. All of us who have participated in and used the information in this forum have improved our raid DPS because of it.

Take your anger and ignorance elsewhere.
#4855SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
Anyone figured out how to turn of the bloody annoying Shamanistic Focus proc sound? It's driving me and the other melee mad :P

Mostly looking for a non intrusive method, a simple mod or something, or barring that, at least the name of the soundfile that plays every time, think it is the clear cast noise?
#4856SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Aegospotami View Post
Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.
Hits cannot proc Critical Strikes. Period.
Stormstrike and Windfury will never miss with the hit from talents from a 3/44/14 build. Period.
The OP already says that +34 AP and +17 hit is better than +17 STR and +17 INT. Period.

So WTF is the rest of your worthless post trying to say?
#4857SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Aegospotami View Post
And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.
Yah you pretty much just proved your own ignorance there bud.

And let me clear up for you - I don't see myself as an "authority" on much of anything. Frequent readers of this thread know that I've eaten my words on several occasions and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that my math skills have taken a sharp nose dive since my last college course. I just happen to read this thread more than anyone else since I'm the one updating the info post.
#4858SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ultima88
Originally Posted by ultima88 View Post
Hi all,

I realize the ideal shock rotation is the fs/es, but I am running into an issue. My guild leader (an elemental shaman, also reads this thread frequently, so may in fact read this) has told me that I cannot use Flame Shock. It takes up a debuff slot that he believes is more valuable for another class.
Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock.

Thanks in advance.
Anyone got anything for this?
#4859SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mbuzi
The post immediately following the one where you asked the question had a good suggestion. Run a mod to track debuffs on the mob and assure your leader you will only flame shock when not near the limit. If you want to argue Flame Shock is a better debuff than something else well, that's another matter entirely.
#4860SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Originally Posted by Aegospotami View Post
I'm going to call BS on you here because you try to make people look stupid for bringing up the +Hit argument, when it's the one thing you don't have any numbers for.

Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.

And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.

And because we keep seeing the +Hit question popping up, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed a DPS increase when changing from your recommendation (prioritizing only +Hit from talents) and switching to a few pieces of gear that add +Hit. There is no question that +Hit in the 200-range is excessive, but there is every indication that going from around 70-80 +Hit to the 120 - 130 range will lead to a DPS increase.

You've helped a lot of Enhancement Shaman players with your theorycrafting, but it's pretty clear on this issue that, because you see yourself as the authority on these matters, you are reluctant to admit you're wrong. And there's no mistaking, you are wrong here.
We've already concluded that in this thread

1.Hit isn't as good for Enh Shaman because you're already hit capped from talents, for your specials, namely Windfury and Stormstrike

2.Hit becomes increasingly better as your gear improves because hit is a percentage increase to your DPS. Therefore in T6 level gear of critical percentage and attack power, you'll see increase in dps at a faster rate.

3.Hit Pushes Miss off the combat table, crit pushes hit off. Hitting more won't make you crit more. While it is true that you may miss a hit that could've procced windfury (very bold assumption), but that still doesn't justify stacking hit at early gear level.

In addition, there are some of us that NOTICED DPS difference from swapping from pure +hit to just AP and crit (I stacked 10 dawnstones before, so i definitely know the difference)

And on the helm inscription, 6.8 AP < 14 hit rating
#4861SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Originally Posted by Mbuzi View Post
The post immediately following the one where you asked the question had a good suggestion. Run a mod to track debuffs on the mob and assure your leader you will only flame shock when not near the limit. If you want to argue Flame Shock is a better debuff than something else well, that's another matter entirely.
Track your own Flame Shock damage ticks. If it ticks for a larger portion than any other DoT that is permitted on the mob, then your raid leader should let you keep it.

If it is ticking for the least, and can push off important debuffs such as sunder armor, then don't use it.
#4862SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0seminarca
It should also be said that gear with Hit Rating on it generally (key word there, generally) has a better spread of stats than gear that doesn't. Spending itemization points only on Str and Agi is going to result in overall lower amount of stats than if you were to spend the same itemization points on Str, Agi AND Hit. Swapping to gear that has Hit Rating on it will generally give you more overall stats, and result in a DPS increase.

I think the main impetus of this perceived "anti-Hit Rating" atmosphere is that early in TBC raiding, many Enhancement Shamans were using Hit Rating gems in gear whereas it's better to use straight Str or Str/Crit gems instead.

No one is saying stay away from Hit Rating as if it were the pox. Just that when you have a choice to put an 8 Str gem or an 8 Hit Rating gem, the Str one is the better option.

I don't know why AEP/EP equivalency systems are so frightening to people, I'm fairly poor at maths myself, and AEP/EP is just about one of the most intuitive ways to present information to such a dumbarse.

Anyway, my commiserations to all the Shamans in this thread, I read it off and on here and there (level 65 Enhancement Shaman alt), I can only begin to imagine the horror of finding posts like that every day.
#4863SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mengus
Originally Posted by seminarca View Post
It should also be said that gear with Hit Rating on it generally (key word there, generally) has a better spread of stats than gear that doesn't. Spending itemization points only on Str and Agi is going to result in overall lower amount of stats than if you were to spend the same itemization points on Str, Agi AND Hit. Swapping to gear that has Hit Rating on it will generally give you more overall stats, and result in a DPS increase.
I think it's more the case that if an item has Hit, Crit, AP... then you'll have less itemization weight on stats we value. STR and AGI proportionally give less value, because they are higher weighted for ilevel.

i.e from an item level standpoint, 3 agi = 4 crit rating
#4864SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Mbuzi View Post
The post immediately following the one where you asked the question had a good suggestion. Run a mod to track debuffs on the mob and assure your leader you will only flame shock when not near the limit. If you want to argue Flame Shock is a better debuff than something else well, that's another matter entirely.
I would run something like Demon for this.
#4865SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Mengus View Post
I think it's more the case that if an item has Hit, Crit, AP... then you'll have less itemization weight on stats we value. STR and AGI proportionally give less value, because they are higher weighted for ilevel.

i.e from an item level standpoint, 3 agi = 4 crit rating
No, from an ilevel standpoint, 3 agi = 3 crit rating = 3 hit rating = 3 haste rating = 6 ap = 3 str (assuming that the item starts with 0 stat points invested).
#4866SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0benvegas
Is it time for Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol II?

...195 pages of excellent info for us before getting a nice rework in 2.3. How about a fresh start Malan?
#4867SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
We've been waiting for Boe to get some time to get the Wiki going where all this will migrate. The wiki should then be used for people to post updates to, not discussion really, and then have normal threads out here to hash out all the details.
#4868SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
everwatch
**EDITED**

Did some tests in BT using FT. I was an avid hoper that "theory" would be proven wrong. It was not. Tests in 25 man raid content showed FT as "viable" dps used on a fast OH weapon, however it was not superior to DW WF on 2 slow weapons.

As some backup test data for those interested in Blasted Lands as a base example:

16.15% hit / 35% Flurry haste / 5.76% spell crit was used across the board using Rising Tide MH with WF.

Merci Axe OH w/WF
2033 AP / 32.77% crit
White: 64%
WF: 35%
881.6dps in 6 min
320k dmg done

Umbral Shiv OH w/FT
2077 AP / 32.57% crit
White: 66%
WF: 21%
FT: 12%
844dps in 6 min
307k dmg done

As Disquette well pointed out, WF benefits more from +AP than FT does because our spell dmg is a % of that AP. IE. WF scales better with AP. The only way to scale FT better is with an inordinate amount of haste. I used 5% Flurry haste, not quite 5% true haste, to lend some of that credit to FT. Due to the haste nerf and itemization I have to retract all ideas and questions I made to FT being an equal or better alternative. RL testing proved true the theories in here from what I did in BT and from what a very simple test in BL backed up. Thanks for the previous work on this matter Disquette, Malan, and others.

Last edited by everwatch : 11/15/07 at 6:22 AM. Reason: tests showed I did math incorrectly
#4869SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0everwatch
I swapped over to Ele/Enhancement spec since I was intrigued by it from an earlier post. 16/45/0 I've been Enhance/Reso since I started my toon, so this is a 1st time change and test.

In BT tonight I found my total shock damage to be 17% of my total damage done using FT in my OH. In 2.2 with Resto side spec it was only 9% of my total damage done using WF in my OH.

I went to Blasted Lands and did a small test. I used a lil bit of human error, messing up GCD slightly here or there, to better simulate actual real %'s that would match my playstyle.

16.15% hit / 35% Flurry haste / 5.76% spell crit / 32.77% crit / 2033-2457AP (I should have taken off my relic/trinket due to procs)

White: 46%
WF: 30%
SS: 8%
ES: 8%
FS: 8%
1374.9dps
654k dmg done

16% of my damage done was Shocks versus a mob with no real resists to speak of. In a raid environment my Shock damage is a higher %. Probabaly a longer test result would have helped. Plus I will Shock even when out of melee range for whatever reason in actual game play. So 17% of my total damage with 16/45/0 spec appears to be Shock damage in 2.3

I don't plan on respec'ing - I like my -10% dmg from fire/frost/nat too much. Is there any shaman who is Resto side spec'd who can tell me what % they're getting who has similar gear? T5/T6 equiv mix.
#4870SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Blasted lands mobs are no longer reliable for hit mechanisms, NG is quite useless against them due to level difference. Any test on them would give great advantage for elemental.
#4871SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0jackiechen89
Instance not PVP??

i guess most of your work is done base on instance raid..
where i am mostly pvp player....
spend most of my time in Arena or battlegroud.
so here is few point i don't agree with you..
please let me know what you think and correct me...

Enchantment/elemental
somehow i believe is much stronger than echchantment/rest in your point of view
i agree +hit is important.. but however...
during PVP ... player don't stand there for you to attack... most of time requireds you to run around...
shock dispel. shock for slowing target inorder to able to hit them with your weapon...
so i would like to ask your opinion on enchantment/elemental on PVP...
where you spend 5point to reduce your casting time by 1sec along with new Metel Quickness...
this talent become more powerful than used to be...

also like to ask you...
what about the play style on 2hand weapon with extremely slow speed like 3.6+
with alot of haste speed... how will that perform?
#4872SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Razzan
Well about the new patch changes:My guild did a SSC keying run from some new guys so i went there as 2/45/14 with NG.First of all i must say the new totem is very good! On every second shock it was up and sometimes even during continuous shocks.The mental quickness is now a great talent no doubt about that since my shocks cost now 181mana (\o/),and with the new shamanistic focus i shock spam every 6 seconds.Also noticed sme really nice damage form shocks like 2563 crit 2456 etc whcih is lol :P.The thing i couldnt go well with and wont ever go well with is the stupid,irritating,noobish,WINDFURY AND STORMSTRIKE DODGES!I almost NEVER miss and im low on the meter because of that issue...53453534543 dodges.Gief expertise -.- ..This doesnt mean i look only to dps since i first make sure that i fulfill my support role appropriately..If we get expertise then our dps will go skyhigh,we will hit all the time :P.

P.S. 34AP+16hit is better than 17str+116int and Malan does a damn good job with advice for all enhancement shamans out there..Keep up the good work!

Razzan
#4873SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Blasted lands mobs are no longer reliable for hit mechanisms, NG is quite useless against them due to level difference. Any test on them would give great advantage for elemental.
Blasted lands has not been a reliable mechanism for testing anything, since we were level 60 and only when we didn't want to test against circumstances that would come up in a 40-man raid. You can't value stats when you're fighting hit/crit factories and when AP is exaggerated due to level difference and lack of armor mitigation.

For instance, how are you going to model the 30% of AP that is now translated into spell damage, compared to AP that is translated into physical damage when you're not fighting a mob with the same armor, glancing and dodge of a raid boss? Shocks aren't mitigated by armor.

So logically AP now has more value than it did prior to 2.3 because it increases 2 types of damage. Plus, crit will have more value for longer fights where mana might become an issue, to keep up the 60% reduced mana cost. Of course crit will then have a different “ideal value” depending on if you have 5 or 6 second shocks. (Probably doesn’t matter if you twist though.)
#4874SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shabadu
After spending last night in the back half of BT, I can say without a doubt: This patch is awesome. If the only change we got was the Shamanistic rage -30% damage, I'd be a happy clam. In a trash situation, being able to become a fury warrior on demand makes for a much more aggressive play style and I love it. Taking damage off Veras's Deadly Poison, Shahraz's beams, Reliquary's auras, etc was lovely.

But, I think the biggest difference wasn't in any of our changes, but rather in the expertise change for tanks. I went from having to hold back significantly on council using the Vashj trinket to going full bore with shocks/haste pots etc and only hitting 90% of tank threat. Teron especially used to be bad for threat, but between new spirit weapons and expertise, I only came close during lust/haste/drums.

Here's Teron through Illidan +comedy DST lottery on Gruul. Shabadu - WWS


Originally Posted by Razzan View Post
Razzan
#4875SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
Here's Teron through Illidan +comedy DST lottery on Gruul. Shabadu - WWS
I have to say that I'm pretty surprised that your shocks are indeed clocking in at 10% of your damage. I suppose seeing shock contribution was a bit to be expected due to the Mental Quickness change and the mana cost reduction, but damn. What are you normally using for weapons? I doubt you're packing Soul Cleaver in raids.
#4901SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lucentia
Weird... last night I didn't hear anything when Shamanistic Focus was going off... I am sure that now that i am aware that there should be a sound, I will hear it and be just as annoyed as everyone else.
#4902SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sufferings
Its pretty bad...I have my game sounds done kinda low, but I know other melee in guild were complaining about it like crazy on Tuesday night in BT, lol. Hopefully they just take out the sound and not just nerf the spell.
#4903SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Igniter
Originally Posted by berg View Post
SR has clearly changed the game for us. Threat is a total non-factor and our dps got boosted (conveniently hidden from meters)

These are instances where I have been truly grateful about Shamanistic Rage.

EoS - P1 tanking. P3 with the seethe/ae spam is also so smooth now.
Gurtogg - if you get focused or hit by poison
Mother - Ports are completely harmless now.
L5 beams from council robot bastards.
Rogue focus, blizzard, flamestrike on council.

It is amazing. Shamanistic Rage has to be one of the top 2-3 PVE skills for any class in the entire game. But most importantly our mana burden is so low now that we can save SR to use it reactively.

Threat is still a factor, on nearly every fight, at least for me. My gear is pretty average at best for a 9/9 guild, and I have to cyclone WF/TA and almost always have to hold back a ton on Teron/RoS/BB.
#4904SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
Threat is still a factor, on nearly every fight, at least for me. My gear is pretty average at best for a 9/9 guild, and I have to cyclone WF/TA and almost always have to hold back a ton on Teron/RoS/BB.
RoS and Gurtogg I had significant threat issues, but that's just about it anymore.
#4905SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
It wouldn't be annoying if it didn't proc every sec I guess :P.
best thing is my raid seems to hear it more than I do.
"Yo, Amy stop critting so much"
"That, my friends, is the sound of mana efficiency!"

gotta agree w/ the SR change hype, given how slowly I run out of mana now, it is now much more up to me when I use SR, I am also glad to hear it works on Council trash l5 beam, i was hoping to test it yesterday but we haven't gotten to council this week due to our own stupidity on bosses this reset.

edit: ugh @ Bloodboil. To prevent having to worry about the threat cap and instead worry about stuff like the breath I simply dont do ANYTHING before the first fel rage phase, that tends to be a big enough lead for me to at least only melee during all other non fel rage phases, its annoying but I have to worry less.
#4906SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Veritas17
Could someone here critique my gear/spec for me? (Edit: Since the new talent rework, and everyone has been going back and forth on if its good or not to pick up a few of the new things over, blah whatever if you HAVE TIME AND ARE BORED please take a peek) I'm trying to find out what are some things I can pick up that don't require a 25 man because im not always pulled in for our raids.

Things I know i'm lacking - neck/mainhand upgraded(it was HELL to find a heroic group pre-2.3) the totem from heroic MT and some boots.

Other than that I also wanted to know about when to start dpsing. My tank is damn good at getting aggro etc. but i'm so paranoid about grabbing aggro I'm hesitant to hit things quickly like everyone else does.

Could someone out there help me out?

The link to my shaman's gear is here http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=Darkenlight

Thanks for your time folks i'm just trying to not suck.

Last edited by Veritas17 : 11/15/07 at 5:28 PM.
#4907SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rapparee
If you are reading this for the first time, please read the entire first post before posting questions. Almost every question that's been asked recently has been answered in this post. Nobody here has any interest in perusing your armory and two dozen WWS parses just to tell you the same information that is posted below.
That's from the first post in this thread. It was true then, it is true now.
I'm not going to look at your armory and just say, if you can't raid you must:

Go to heroic instances: There are many good items that drop in heroics.
Go to heroic instances: There are badges that drop in heroics with which one can buy some good gear.
Get into battlegrounds: There are many reasonably decent items from the honor vendors.
Get into rated arena matches: There are several great items from arena vendors.
Get on Ebay: On any given day there is probably a character of the type you want in better gear posted for auction.
#4908SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Anticipation doesn't need to be reworked; it's a great talent for PvP builds.

Toughness, on the other hand, is just weird. 5 talent points for like 3% DR?
#4909SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Veritas17
Yeah apparently you can't read either, I already said that getting into heroics was problematic at best on my server.

And there are a lot of new things that JUST came out in ZA and rep rewards that I haven't been able to keep track of so a lot of that info on the first page needs updated.

I guess I should of stated that.

Plus, I was curious about having expertise since that also wasn't on the first page from when I had been reading up on it.

Thanks tho?
#4910SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Veritas17 View Post
so a lot of that info on the first page needs updated.
Such as?

By the way I'm leaving for a backpacking trip tomorrow so if people see anything needing changes in the OP, best to give me a PM so that I don't overlook it when I return.
#4911SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Veritas17
Thanks Malan.

That comment wasn't a slight on you but the sims i've got and what not don't show the new things on my gear like how this expertise will effect my combat and a couple other things I was just trying to get some convo going :/

Have fun with your trip.
#4912SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Originally Posted by Veritas17 View Post
Yeah apparently you can't read either, I already said that getting into heroics was problematic at best on my server.

And there are a lot of new things that JUST came out in ZA and rep rewards that I haven't been able to keep track of so a lot of that info on the first page needs updated.

I guess I should of stated that.

Plus, I was curious about having expertise since that also wasn't on the first page from when I had been reading up on it.

Thanks tho?
If you want individual help on your gear and spec try the shaman forums over at worldofwarcraft.com, hell I might even jump over there and help you on it if you do.

Expertise is explained on the first page. Look up ZA gear on something like wowhead and compare it yourself. They provide the numbers for doing so on the first post as well.
#4913SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Veritas17
On this posts first page?

Maybe its my browser then as I had firefox crash and it's still got the same info from a couple weeks ago so I thought it wasn't updated :/
#4914SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sufferings
Originally Posted by Veritas17 View Post
Yeah apparently you can't read either, I already said that getting into heroics was problematic at best on my server.

And there are a lot of new things that JUST came out in ZA and rep rewards that I haven't been able to keep track of so a lot of that info on the first page needs updated.

I guess I should of stated that.

Plus, I was curious about having expertise since that also wasn't on the first page from when I had been reading up on it.

Thanks tho?
Quoting from the OP:

Originally Posted by Malan
In short:
OH = [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] > [Fury] > [Fool's Bane] > [The Decapitator] > [Runic Hammer] > epic dagger or anything else faster than 2.4
There is info on picking a OH weapon which includes the fist weapon from ZA. And if you want to know about how good gear is, I hope you read the EP section (formally known as AEP). You can easily figure out how good gear is in there compared to what you have there. Don't ask someone else to do the math for you.


Originally Posted by Malan
VIII.12 Itemization - Weapon Expertise
Patch 2.3 will change all weapon skill rating into weapon expertise rating, which converts into Expertise skill at a rate of 3.95 expertise rating:1 Expertise, and reduces the chance for your target to dodge and parry by 0.25% per point of Expertise. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger], which used to provide 10 dagger skill rating, will now provide 10 expertise rating (all weapons).

The parry reduction element of Expertise will have only marginal use in raid settings: mobs cannot parry attacks made from behind. Many bosses randomly turn to cast attacks and can parry while turning, but this possibility is too random to value significantly. Unlike parry, mobs can dodge attacks from behind and Expertise is currently the only way to reduce the number of dodges. The dodge reduction element of Expertise will vary from encounter to encounter: it will be useless against bosses that are constantly casting (e.g. Shade of Aran, High Astromancer Solarian, Reliquary of Souls) because mobs cannot dodge while casting, but useful against mobs that do not cast or only cast instant spells. Expertise has been shown to affect yellow damage as well as white damage, so under the second circumstance it is actually more useful than hit rating for enhancement shamans.

We still don't know how Expertise's dodge and parry reduction affect the one-roll white attack table. For now, the community is assuming that it converts dodges and parries into hits that do not have a chance to crit. On the other hand, we are now confident that Expertise will allow yellow attacks to crit, since they are resolved through a two-roll system. Thus, we will estimate expertise rating to be similar to the weight of hit rating, with some exceptions.

First, expertise rating is only useful in chunks, because there is no concept of having 2.5 Expertise - the Skill values are all rounded down to whole integers. To get around this, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 3.95, take the floor, and multiply by 3.95 again. This gives you a "white hit rating" equivalency. Note that this makes expertise rating EP discontinuous. One expertise rating may be worth 0 EP because it is not enough to give you an extra skill point -- e.g. you go from 14 expertise rating to 15 expertise rating -- while a jump of two expertise rating at the same point may have a surprisingly high EP -- e.g. you go from 14 expertise rating to 16 and thus 0.75% dodge reduction to 1.00% dodge reduction.

Next, we must account for the fact that Expertise, unlike hit rating, also effects the yellow damage from special attacks in addition to the white damage from auto-attacks. To correct for this, you need to multiply by the ratio of melee damage to white damage, or (Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage). Also, because white crit rate as a percentage of landed swings decreases as hit rate goes up, but with the two-roll system, yellow crit rate stays constant, we must adjust for that. Finally, we must multiply by the EP of 1 hit rating, to convert our "hit rating" equivalency into EP.

Our final expertise calculation is:
<br /> \text {EP} = \lfloor \frac {\sum {\text Expertise}}{3.95} \rfloor \times 3.95 \times \frac {\text {Yellow%} \times (1 + \text{Crit%}) + \text{White%}}{\text {White%}} \times \text {Hit EP} <br />

Example Calculation:
Assume that we are examining a new piece of gear that will bring our total Expertise Rating to 17, Hit EP is 1.4, Crit% is 30%, White% of DPS is 50%, Yellow% of DPS is 40% and the remaining 10% is shocks and searing totem.

Expertise EP = \lfloor \frac {17}{3.95} \rfloor \times 3.95 \times \frac {40 \times 1.30 + 50}{50} \times 1.4
Expertise EP = 45.12
Note that this value is not the EP stat weight of Expertise Rating, it is the total sum worth of the Expertise Rating on all your gear.
Its all there on the first page bud. So, if by saying the first page needs to be "updated" you mean that you want gear rated for you so you don't have to figure out the EP yourself, then yes, it does need to be updated. But in the real sense of the word, all the info is there for you to use and find out good gear yourself.
#4915SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Veritas17
Nope, definitely don't want someone else doing math for me but like I said, the first page didn't update for me on this machine for whatever reason. Firefox crashed and when it restarted things haven't changed for this first thread as I have it in a different window.

Alright appreciate it i'll have to go look it up on my fiance`s machine since this one still isn't updating it.
#4916SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ugbutz
Hey guys. I've been following this thread since the beginning, really great help for the understanding of shamans class mechanics.
We were extremly unlucky with t5/t6 tokens for a long time so i'm still wearing my t4 helmet.
Since we downed illidan 1 month ago im hoping to get my hands on Cursed Vision of Sargeras and so passing for the t6 tokens. Today Zul'jin dropped Grimgrin Faceguard, nobody else wanted to take it so i picked it up.
Now my question: On the first sight it's a huge upgrade over t4, but is it worth it to loose the 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm Diamond? In a raid environment with around 40-50% crit rate it's quite a dps boost.
#4917SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Veritas17
BTW Sorry Rapparee for being quite combative, it's been a trying day and didn't mean to be so vague in my post.
#4918SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
ugbutz: Losing 1.2% of your DPS sounds pretty bad, but you can answer your own question.

Yo's simulates RED, just plug in your numbers.
#4919SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0everwatch
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Blasted lands mobs are no longer reliable for hit mechanisms, NG is quite useless against them due to level difference. Any test on them would give great advantage for elemental.
The purpose was not to determine dps, but % of dmg done. I listed all numbers for comparison purposes if someone found it relevant. It's easy to realize that in that situation your ES will be over norm with no one eating the SS and your FS will be lower than norm with no debuffs on the mobs. I'd like to know what rough %'s people find.

Before 2.3 10% of my damage on BL mobs was shocks. Now it's about 16%. Same mobs as part of my test with varying %'s still shows a decent basis of comparison from 2.2 to 2.3 even if a raid environment will be different on some level.
#4920SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
Originally Posted by ugbutz View Post
Hey guys. I've been following this thread since the beginning, really great help for the understanding of shamans class mechanics.
We were extremly unlucky with t5/t6 tokens for a long time so i'm still wearing my t4 helmet.
Since we downed illidan 1 month ago im hoping to get my hands on Cursed Vision of Sargeras and so passing for the t6 tokens. Today Zul'jin dropped Grimgrin Faceguard, nobody else wanted to take it so i picked it up.
Now my question: On the first sight it's a huge upgrade over t4, but is it worth it to loose the 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm Diamond? In a raid environment with around 40-50% crit rate it's quite a dps boost.
Quick and dirty method.

R.E.D. effect improves your dps by .03 * crit rate.
For example if your crit is 33.3% you are looking at a 1.0% melee dps gain from this effect.

Determine your melee dps using a simulator of your choice. Say it is 1000. The gem effect alone would increase your dps to 1010. (1000 * 1.01)

A difference of 10 dps.

Now reset the sim and add AP until you have gone from your original 1000 melee dps to 1010dps. The amount of AP you added is a rough approximation of the AEP value of the meta gem effect. (For me it was roughly 37 ap)

But do not forget that free agility. Take the AEP gain you calculated above and add 12x the AEP contribution of AGI for your gear and you have a decent estimation of the AEP contribution of that gem.

Then just sum the AEP contributions of both helms and go with what is best.
#4921SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gehenna
nova

Post patch, im basically sitting with infinate mana.

I've turned to dropping fire nova every cooldown, and after it blows, i drop searing for a few seconds, no mana issues at all, basically fire nova is another shock for me.

Im not sure i could maintain all of it without 25% mana reduction on the totems, but it is something to consider when comparing elemental and resto as secondary trees. 15% more damage from totems isn't a huge percentage of our overall damage by a longshot, but it is something.
#4922SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Veritas17 View Post
Nope, definitely don't want someone else doing math for me but like I said, the first page didn't update for me on this machine for whatever reason. Firefox crashed and when it restarted things haven't changed for this first thread as I have it in a different window.

Alright appreciate it i'll have to go look it up on my fiance`s machine since this one still isn't updating it.
You might want to do control+f5 (same as control+refresh) on the first post page. Control resets the cache in both firefox and internet explorer, I believe.

The other option is to use which ever browser you use to delete the cache. If it has no cache, it will be forced to query the entire page again. IE has settings to set how often it will check for non-cached versions (every time you open IE, every time you open the page, etc) which may help solve the problem going forward, also. I'm not sure if firefox has this sort of granular mechanism, but I've never had a problem with either one so I can't say offhand how much this will help you.
#4923SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krom[Fenris]
Well, after some testing it appears the Stonebreaker Totems cooldown is 10seconds, no more. So basically if you have the buff up and you cast a shock there's no chance it will refresh. If someone else wants to work out the math for if it's worthwhile to try and time your shocks every 10 seconds instead of every 6 seconds, feel free :P
#4924SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
God, I love this patch. Did Full MH and up to Akama tonight and I love it so much . Infinite mana, more dps (hidden on the meters, but can be shown in WWS at least) and I feel like I can finally go all out. Haven't done Reliquary or Gurtogg yet, but I usually had to stop dps on at least Anetheron, RWC and HWLN. Didn't have to tonight ^^.

Here's the WWS: Khaelyn - WWS (one of our messier raids, but hell I couldn't care even if I tried, really enjoyed myself tonight)

I was chaindropping Fire Nova and Magma Totems on Hyjal trash, it really does nice damage if you check overall. 220k from Fire Nova, 180k from Searing and 90k from Magma Totem. But as everyone else has said, the biggest difference is Shamanistic Rage, oh dear god how I love it. Allows me to pull aggro from a mob without having too bad repercussions, allows me to mitigate damage such as Death & Decay, Doomfire, Unquenchable Flames, whatever other AoE. Not to mention the extra threat reduction.


It really changed my playstyle, I usually at least waited 5-10 sec before dpsing a mob, now I just went straight in together with all the other melee, it was pure heaven .
#4925SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ikuturso
Heads-up for Omen users: it appears Threat/Omen hasn't yet been updated to reflect the change to Spirit Weapons--thus, it's possible that you are judging your threat higher than it actually is.
#5051SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Ok this Executioner discussion is getting stupid. "Oh yah its great here's a random WWS parse which does nothing to illustrate how good/bad it is!"

Come on. Use the tools we have available. We have an EP stat weight for Armor Penetration. Yo's sim can be easily manipulated to test it as well. Figure out the estimated passive -Armor benefit that execution provides and add that in the sim to your -Armor stat, and remove mongoose from one weapon. Run the sim. Compare against running the sim with double mongoose.

I cannot fathom how we've now got 2-3 pages of people asking the same shit over and over about "has anyone tested Executioner yet????"

@Pitbuller - you just used an EP value for a 2.7 weapon, while the ones we have available are only for 2.6 speed. Did you calculate a 2.7 EP value recently? If so, hand the values over!
#5052SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Pitbuller
8.48 and 4.24 is EP values for all same speed weapons(assuming equal wf procs). Purely theory based. Only thing what mess things up is how windfury procs divided beetween mh and oh.

EDIT: Yo's simulator give same dps to 12.56ap or 0.741dps to mh and 1.482dps(no oh penalty) to oh.
EDIT2: The whole wDPS is now 10% higher than its should be becouse of mental quickness.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 11/20/07 at 12:07 PM.
#5053SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Isn't the purpose of EP from weapon DPS is to help us understand how much additional EP (from stats, procs, etc) a lower DPS weapon would need to have to exceed the usefulness of a higher DPS weapon?

Since we know that slower weapons with the SAME DPS as faster ones contribute more to overall DPS, the EP MUST be different for different weapon speeds. If this weren't true, I'd have offhanded the [Guile of Khoraazi], rather than vendoring it once I discovered this thread.
#5054SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Skiace View Post
As for the pants, I think [Shallow-grave Trousers] (leather badge reward) comes out ahead of them fairly easily. In fact, using the generic T5 EP values, [Void Reaver Greaves] and [Skulker's Greaves] also beat them.
Not quite at T5, so whatever badge pants I get will be a substantial upgrade. Assuming T4 doesn't drop tonight (my melee would love +12 STR).

I was thinking [Shifting Camouflage Pants] would be nice for when Executioner procs, but comparing them with my personal EP factoring in Executioner as a full time buff (for s&g), [Shallow-grave Trousers] are still way better.

Sigh...was hoping I'd have at least one mail upgrade with this patch.
#5055SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
The leather badge rewards are pretty superior to the mail ones overall. Slightly annoying since none of the leather I was considering as an in-between upgrade had any -Armor on it, but all the mail does (but would be a downgrade in most cases).
#5056SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
The only reason my parse is there to illustrate the proc rate, which is the important part for a lot of people I presume? I might be dumb or retarded, but since when can you run the sim and add a value for a proc without knowing it's uptime? From what I can read in the Executioner thread, no one even knows how much PPM it is, or how much the proc chance is. It wildly varies, not to mention all the people in that thread are warriors or rogues.

So for those who didn't really pay attention to my parse, my Executioner had similar amount of procs to Mongoose, however the annoying part is that the refreshing of the buff isn't counted by WWS, so yah it's probably best to assume same ppm and procrate as Mongoose. And if you haven't read the other thread, the proc % is estimated to be about 5.1% - 7.4% and a ppm of 1.09 - 1.51. But they have wildy different numbers in between tests with weapons with different weapon speed, and so forth.

Pretty much means that it's very hard to calculate the difference between Mongoose/Mongoose and Mongoose/Executioner. From personal experience, it's not worse at least. If it's better or not is going to depend on your own EP values and preferences. I think I'll be sticking to it, just only for the glow already!
#5057SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Isn't the purpose of EP from weapon DPS is to help us understand how much additional EP (from stats, procs, etc) a lower DPS weapon would need to have to exceed the usefulness of a higher DPS weapon?

Since we know that slower weapons with the SAME DPS as faster ones contribute more to overall DPS, the EP MUST be different for different weapon speeds. If this weren't true, I'd have offhanded the [Guile of Khoraazi], rather than vendoring it once I discovered this thread.
Wdps EP isnt for comparing different speed weapons.
If you use faster but same speeded weapons your dps will fall but ep value for ap isnt change same thing goes for Wdps ep.
#5058SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Just out of curiosity, was my post regarding Executioner a month ago totally off the mark?
Mongoose Proc is 120 agi and 2% haste (31.52 haste rating at lvl 70). Using the AEP in the OP, this is (120 * 2) + (31.52 * 1.48) = 286.65 AEP

Executioner is 840 Armor Pen. 840 * 0.25 = 210 (low estimate) or 840 * 0.30 = 252 (my value from Yo!)

Just some thoughts on this: The AEP value I got for AP was 0.3 from Yo!'s sim. The change in AEP value from 0.25 to 0.30 netted 42 AEP. The low-gear AEP estimate is 0.19, which gets Executioner 159.6 AEP. In order for executioner to have the same AEP as Mongoose, the AEP value for AP needs to be 0.34. (840 * x = 287) Executioner's benefits are 100% gear dependent, so there should be a crossover point at which Executioner is better than Mongoose.
#5059SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
Just out of curiosity, was my post regarding Executioner a month ago totally off the mark?

You also have to consider the benefit of gear on mongoose too, using my values from Yo's sim I get 315.16 for mongoose and 302.4 for executioner.

Malan, assuming same proc rate as mongoose what would be the constant passive -armor for executioner? (useless at working that stuff out).
#5060SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
If executioner have same proc rate than mongoose. Uptime is then 37%(with Yo's simulator default values)
0.37 * 840 = 310.8 passive armor penetration.
#5061SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Since armor penetration gets better the more of it you have, I don't think you can fairly consider Executioner in terms of a constant passive amount. +840 for 20s per minute would be ever so slightly better than simply +280 straight up (although to be honest, it takes a ton of AP to move my stat weights significantly in simulation).

I picked up Executioner yesterday (out of convenience -- had no enchant on my upgraded hammer, no guildy has Mongoose even though we've brought down Moroes a hojillion times but we got Executioner on the first kill). I can only say it beats the piss out of Crusader.
#5062SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
If you're not willing to consider it as a passive amount than there is zero basis for comparison between any proc and a passive effect. You have to reduce procs to a passive in order to compare them. And yes, -Armor is better the more of it you have, and the sim will reflect that but a mathematical comparison cannot.
#5063SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
I agree that the procs shouldn't be reduced to a passive benefit before comparison, but if the proc rate is the same, and the buff duration is the same, can't we directly compare the enchants? If not than my post was dumb, but if so there should be a point at which Executioner > Mongoose. The stat weights for your gear would need to be determined via simulation, but after a bit of sim runs with people picking up -armor, we should be able to come up with a general rule about when it is better.

This is my noob attempt:

Mongoose: 120agi, 2% haste (31.52 rating)
Executioner: 840 -armor

a = EP for 1 point of Agi
h = EP for 1 point of Haste
p = EP for 1 point of -Armor

They give the same benefit when:
120a + 31.52h = 840p
(120a + 31.52h)/p = 840
(30(4a + 1.05h))/p = 840 (Rounded haste rating down)
(4a + 1.05h)/p = 28

So if you take your stat weights and plug in the values, and you get a number > 28, Executioner is superior.
#5064SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Well even using the standard EP values that makes Executioner better.
#5065SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
They give the same benefit when:
120a + 31.52h = 840p
(120a + 31.52h)/p = 840
(30(4a + 1.05h))/p = 840 (Rounded haste rating down)
(4a + 1.05h)/p = 28

So if you take your stat weights and plug in the values, and you get a number > 28, Executioner is superior.
With the formula you gave, decreasing values of p (armor penetration AEP) will give a higher result, so it should be results < 28 mean executioner is superior.
#5066SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Toots Hepcat
ed.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/20/07 at 6:50 PM. Reason: Double posting again (why does it do that?)
#5067SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
a = EP for 1 point of Agi
h = EP for 1 point of Haste
p = EP for 1 point of -Armor
Since what we really want is to solve for the minimum EP value for armor penetration that will make Exec equal Mongoose:

(4a + 1.05h) / 28 = p(equal worth)

Plugging in the T4 EP:

(4*1.74 + 1.05*1.28) / 28= p
(6.96 + 1.4144) / 28 = p
8.3744 / 28 = p
.29 = p

Lo and behold, that's higher than the T4 EP for Armor Penetration (.22). For T5, it works out to .34

Looks like I made a bad choice.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/20/07 at 6:57 PM.
#5068SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Thanks for the fixes. Apologies for the errors. I just wanted to move the Executioner vs. Mongoose debate in a more constructive direction.

Moogle mentioned, in a previous post, that off hand was the better choice for the enchant since the hit which procs the effect does not gain the benefit from that effect. This is a bit from a WWS parse:
03:44'31.400	Ilmatar's Melee hits Astromancer for 654
525	Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
907	Ilmatar's Melee hits Astromancer for 313
947	Astromancer's Molten Armor hits Ilmatar for 75 Fire damage
03:44'32.291	Ilmatar gains Lightning Speed of NULL
306	Ilmatar's Windfury Attack hits Astromancer for 1056
306	Ilmatar's Windfury Attack hits Astromancer for 1057
306	Ilmatar gains 124 Mana from Water Shield
306	Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
713	Ilmatar gains Haste of NULL
719	Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
It appears that the Lightning Speed (Mongoose) proc occurs before the Windfury hit. So I am thinking that, if you want to mix enchants, it actually doesn't matter which hand has the Executioner proc, with regard to the next windfury hit. It still stands to reason that a normal melee hit will not gain the benefit.
#5069SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Bargle View Post
With the formula you gave, decreasing values of p (armor penetration AEP) will give a higher result, so it should be results < 28 mean executioner is superior.
Correct. Which means that the "Low End EP" numbers would list Executioner as *worse* than Mongoose. Makes sense because there is no other -Armor at that level to use. Early T5 values (Our standardized EP value) list it as pretty damn close to Mongoose. And once you're hitting T6 content the -Armor EP value in the sim hits 0.33 for almost everyone, and at that point Executioner becomes better.

[e] I just saw Stonebreaker totem proc in Hyjal off of a magic immune banshee. Looks like even if the shock is resisted or immune we can still get the buff. (Which by the way is really annoying how it looks like BoW constantly refreshing on me)

Last edited by Malan : 11/20/07 at 9:07 PM.
#5070SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
[e] I just saw Stonebreaker totem proc in Hyjal off of a magic immune banshee. Looks like even if the shock is resisted or immune we can still get the buff. (Which by the way is really annoying how it looks like BoW constantly refreshing on me)
I think that the banshees are unique, because even with the magic immune shell you can still ES their curse to interrupt it. Could have been changed but on test I went out to SMV and shocked that banished demon for about 10 minutes straight without seeing a proc.
#5071SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Banshees aren't immune to magic. They just cast Anti-Magic Shell, which absorbs magic damage.
#5072SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Banshees aren't immune to magic. They just cast Anti-Magic Shell, which absorbs magic damage.
er.. yea

We took the week off of raiding for the holidays and I'm already slipping.
#5073SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I did notice that it still procs off Rank 1 shocks which is nice.
#5074SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
Hm. Is there a fixed amount of AC on bosses or at least a common amount on most bosses? And does the damage reduction from AC on a boss scale like on a player?

Just wondering if a boss can have a large amount of AC, it gives a scaling damage reduction like on players and thus removing a fixed amount of armor will be very in-effective on high AC bosses, and very good on AC light bosses.
#5075SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vorda
On the first page of this forum: [RAID] Boss armor values
#5176SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Resto subspec:
3% to ~45% of damage and 86/83 - 1 = 3.6% to ~15% of damage ==> 1.35%+0.542% = 1.89% damage increase
30 yard totems
40 minute ankh or -25% mana cost on totems

Elemental subspec
1/6*105%*15% of damage = 2.625% damage increase
5 sec CD on earth/frost shock (some utility)
requires use of more GCDs -- damage increase only holds true if you are shocking perfectly

Elemental gives you a 102.625/101.89 - 1 = 0.72% maximum theoretical DPS increase under optimal circumstances. (In other words, if you're 1500 DPS as resto, you'd be 1511 DPS as elemental with perfect play.) You gain some PvP utility of being able to shock more frequently, but lose the PvE utility offered by increased totem range. You will be on GCD more often and I doubt that anyone will see an actual damage increase moving to elemental from restoration, period. It requires you to be impossibly perfect in your play to see a DPS increase in a raid setting. I do feel that you can now make a case for elemental as a viable alternative, but it's not going to be a DPS improvement -- it's a change of pace, at best.
#5177SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Restoration vs. Elemental: The Final Showdown

Here's my attempt at a mathematical comparison between the two specs dps-wise. I will be basing all of the following math off of my own statistics.

Not counting things like Improved Hunter's Mark or Expose Weakness, my raid buffed attack power is about 3035. So Mental Quickness is giving me about +910 spell damage. As far as I know Flame Shock is still benefiting from about 61% of our spell damage, Earth Shock about 43%, and each tick of Searing Totem about 17%. If these numbers are incorrect, please let me know. I'll also be using Yo's! simulator to determine the amount of melee dps I would lose by not having Nature's Guidance. Hopefully it is accurate.

Enhancement/Restoration: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Flame Shock
797 base damage.
+555 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
-14% from resists.

Total: 797+555*1.15*1.13*1.05*0.86 = 1586~ damage.

Earth Shock
675 base damage.
+391 damage from Mental Quickness.
+5% from Misery.
+20% from Stormstrike.
-14% from resists.

Total: 675+391*1.05*1.20*0.86 = 1155~ damage.

Searing Totem
58 base damage per tick.
+155 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
-17% from resists.

Total: 58+155*1.15*1.13*1.05*0.83 = 241~ damage every 2.5 seconds.

Total DPS from shocks/Searing Totem as Restoration spec: 325~ DPS.

---

Enhancement/Elemental: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Flame Shock
797 base damage.
+555 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
+5% from Concussion.
-17% from resists.

Total: 797+555*1.15*1.13*1.05*1.05*0.83 = 1608~ damage.

Earth Shock
675 base damage.
+391 damage from Mental Quickness.
+5% from Misery.
+20% from Stormstrike.
+5% from Concussion.
-17% from resists.

Total: 675+391*1.05*1.20*1.05*0.83 = 1170~ damage.

Searing Totem
58 base damage per tick.
+155 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
+15% from Call of Flame.
-17% from resists.

Total: 58+155*1.15*1.13*1.05*1.15*0.83 = 277~ damage every 2.5 seconds.

Total DPS from shocks/Searing Totem as Elemental spec: 389~ DPS.

---

Net differences between the two specs after factoring in the melee DPS gained from Nature's Guidance: Improved Healing Wave, Improved Reincarnation, Totemic Focus, and Totemic Mastery vs. Elemental Warding and 35~ DPS.

Other factors:

All of this math assumes the player is keeping Searing Totem up 100% of the time and shocking immediately on every cooldown. Not meeting these conditions certainly favors the Restoration spec.

I did not account for crits. Considering our low crit rate, the fact that Flame Shock crits affect less than half of the spells total damage, and our lack of Elemental Fury, I don't think this changes the math in any major way. But feel free to figure that out on your own and prove me wrong.

Totemic Focus is a requirement for totem twisting on a lot of encounters, even after the patch. If you don't totem twist, then perhaps elemental spec is the correct choice for you. If you totem twist, restoration is the correct choice in my opinion.

Gear has a large affect on these numbers. My math based off of my own statistics can give you a decent idea of the differences between the two specs, but if you want to be hardcore, figure it out based off of your own statistics.
#5178SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I'm not dismissing elemental, but the argument has been going on for pages now, and I see it as a pointless one. And, yes, I'd rather have random WoW Forumers see one spec as better than the other so I don't check the thread and see 5 new posts that say, "LOLLOOKATMYSPECIHAVEELEMENTALDEVASTATION".
Look, this is *the* theorycraft forum for enhancers of all stripes. Most people come here looking to maximize their DPS. Is Elemental a way to do that? Yes.

Ignoring facts is a good way to ensure all arguments here go on for pages. I'd rather try to put this debate to rest (with, "yes, we checked, elemental is x% more dps but friggit, we're going resto because we love out raid") than have it re-introduced and re-dismissed over 20 pages of bad math.
#5179SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
You will be on GCD ... it requires you to be impossibly perfect in your play to see a DPS increase in a raid setting.
Sounds like a good argument against totem twisting, as well.

Anyhow, my point in raising these questions was to get a cogent set of the arguments AGAINST what is from a mathematical perspective justifiable.

It's kind of like the 2.6.2 changes to Water Shield. On paper, you're not gaining anything...but nobody in the real world is refreshing water shields exactly as they pop, there's too much other stuff to worry about.
#5180SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Very rarely is this ever the case. Even the best geared shamans will only be pulling around 1200 DPS on the majority of boss fights. Anyone who tells you they consistently do these kinds of DPS numbers is either pulling your leg, or failing to mention its consistently only on Teron Gorefiend. They might even be including their FIRE TOTEMS in their DPS numbers! Heck, I myself do around 1200-1250 on Teron Gorefiend, but I didn't mention that for my calculations :P But we should keep in mind that those kind of DPS numbers are generally gained by shamans with an extreme amount of AP, such as ones who only use the orange/purple gems to get a meta gem bonus and put in str gems in the rest regardless of socket bonuses. These same shamans will be getting 30% of that extra AP in spell damage anyway, so things scale quite nicely!

On an unrelated note, I for one chose the trade skills that give me the 'edge' over other melees: I have 380 JCing and 375 enchanting. I also pick up the 10 ap crystals from the noob Draenei quest and Scrolls of Str V, seeing how they stack with elixirs and food :P
Firstly, I think you should both save the attitude for people asking about how much +hit rating they need. Elemental vs. Restoration is a viable debate after 2.3. How about we all play nice?

Secondly, you're wrong about these dps numbers. I've posted a bunch of WWS in this thread alone. I really don't want to come off as bragging at all because I'm not, but here's just a few WWS from half of this weeks Hyjal/BT clear without any Searing Totem damage attributed to me:

WWS - Rage Winterchill
WWS - Anetheron
WWS - Kaz'rogal (I'm usually 100-200 dps higher on this fight)
WWS - Naj'entus
WWS - Teron Gorefiend

Pre-2.3 through 104 total logged encounters in Hyjal/BT my average dps was 1342. Post patch with a DST and that number is higher. My current average through two weeks of 2.3 is 1448. Teron Gorefiend is not singlehandedly inflating these numbers. If I played better, this average DPS number could definitely reach 1500+.

Once again, I'm not trying to brag. I'm just trying to give examples.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/24/07 at 2:42 AM.
#5181SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Look, this is *the* theorycraft forum for enhancers of all stripes. Most people come here looking to maximize their DPS. Is Elemental a way to do that? Yes.

Ignoring facts is a good way to ensure all arguments here go on for pages. I'd rather try to put this debate to rest (with, "yes, we checked, elemental is x% more dps but friggit, we're going resto because we love out raid") than have it re-introduced and re-dismissed over 20 pages of bad math.
Drop a Grace of Air totem while you're at it, because you know that your dps is more important than the raid's. I believe that since the idea was introduced it has all boiled down to playstyle and preference, and nothing has been accomplished except what was already known; the worse your gear the more damage shocks makeup and the more elemental subbing will play a part in your dps, and the better gear you have you will see diminished returns from elemental subbing due to non shock damage encompassing your shock damage.
#5182SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Drop a Grace of Air totem while you're at it, because you know that your dps is more important than the raid's. I believe that since the idea was introduced it has all boiled down to playstyle and preference, and nothing has been accomplished except what was already known; the worse your gear the more damage shocks makeup and the more elemental subbing will play a part in your dps, and the better gear you have you will see diminished returns from elemental subbing due to non shock damage encompassing your shock damage.
No one said to not drop WF totem for your group. The point is that you think the extra 10 yards on your totems will increase your groups damage by more than you could increase your own damage by going a 16/45/0 build. As I pointed out, if the group has to move out of range of your totems, they aren't doing any DPS anyway so it really doesn't matter in 90%+ of the fights.
#5183SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Beowolf
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Firstly, I think you should both save the attitude for people asking about how much +hit rating they need. Elemental vs. Restoration is a viable debate after 2.3. How about we all play nice?

Secondly, you're wrong about these dps numbers. I've posted a bunch of WWS in this thread alone. I really don't want to come off as bragging at all because I'm not, but here's just a few WWS from half of this weeks Hyjal/BT clear without any Searing Totem damage attributed to me:

WWS - Rage Winterchill
WWS - Anetheron
WWS - Kaz'rogal (I'm usually 100-200 dps higher on this fight)
WWS - Naj'entus
WWS - Teron Gorefiend

Pre-2.3 through 104 total logged encounters in Hyjal/BT my average dps was 1342. Post patch with a DST and that number is higher. My current average through two weeks of 2.3 is 1448. Teron Gorefiend is not singlehandedly inflating these numbers. If I played better, this average DPS number could definitely reach 1500+.

Once again, I'm not trying to brag. I'm just trying to give examples.
WWS

That parse data doesn't add up. For instance, on Rage Winterchill, going by your damage alone, you DPSd for 142 seconds. Arkadu did more damage, but DPSed only 98% of the time, AND he did less DPS than you did. Whoever uploaded your stats obviously messed something up...

WWS

Same here. Arkadu did less DPS, but out damaged you by 20k damage, and was present for only 1% longer on a 197 second fight, again based off your damage and DPS. Why don't you post some Violation damage parses of your own. That will give us a MUCH more accurate reading of your damage :P

WWS

And look at that. You really only did 15 shocks the ENTIRE 3 minute fight? You could either do a lot more damage, or again the numbers are a bit quirky.... For instance, the fight took exactly 179 seconds by your damage to dps ratio, yet the actual parse is for only 2 minutes of data?

Edit: My own guild mates are telling me that those DPS figures are your maximum DPS, not sustained, which makes sense given that a warrior did 1500 dps on Teron and was present 100% of the time, yet was outdamaged by a lock doing only 1100 dps and who was present for the same time :P

Edit 2: I just got finished messing around with Yo!'s simulator. You would need something like 2800 AP unbuffed, 32% crit, 18% hit, 2% haste and 550 AP with BoK/Mark/BoM/LotP/TSA/BS/Drums/Haste/Elixir/Food and mongoose weapon enchant with 2 100.2 DPS weapons just to hit 1550 dps on a boss with 6200 armor. Would you care to explain how you can seemingly get 1800+ dps? :P

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/24/07 at 4:41 AM.
#5184SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Sounds like a good argument against totem twisting, as well.
Totem twisting has theoretical returns a lot higher than 0.7% of your DPS. If you're getting GoA that you wouldn't normally be, that right there is ~5% crit or ~3% more damage overall, and that's just for you -- including everyone else in the party might provide benefits equal to 10% or more of your DPS.

On the other hand, if you're trying to argue that GCDs are not problematic, you're completely ignoring that the theoretical DPS increase from going Elemental for 5 second shocks will greatly inhibit your ability to totem twist.

If you want to min-max, the absolute best raid DPS is going to be resto spec with totem twisting. Back-of-the-napkin math is more than adequate to show this. Trying to come up with a rotation for elemental with totem twisting requires the following:
0.0-WF
1.5-GoA
3.0-FS
4.5-SS
8.0-ES
9.5-WF
This should make it clear that if your latency plus reaction time is greater than 100ms, you will not achieve the theoretical gains that elemental offers. (Not to mention every minute you must refresh Searing, and every two minutes you must use SR, trinkets, and refresh SoE/Mana Spring, and probably pop a mana pot to keep up with the twisting+shock spam...)

I think that it's not hard to agree that the absolute best min-max way to go is totem twisting with a resto subspec. On the other hand, if you're like me, and only totem twist occasionally because you find it too hard to focus on your surroundings, maybe Elemental is worth considering... but for me, it's not, because that 0.7% DPS isn't worth it to lose things like imp ankh and imp totem range. I can honestly see speccing Elemental for PvP -- a reduced cooldown on Earth and Frost Shocks would be useful there -- but it's just not the best option for raiding.

Last edited by Rob : 11/24/07 at 4:44 AM.
#5185SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Totem twisting has theoretical returns a lot higher than 0.7% of your DPS. If you're getting GoA that you wouldn't normally be, that right there is ~5% crit or ~3% more damage overall, and that's just for you -- not everyone else in the party. Going for 5 second shocks will further inhibit your ability to totem twist. If you want to min-max, the absolute best raid DPS is going to be resto spec with totem twisting. If you just want to play a more relaxed version of the game, I still suggest resto, since you don't have to be as worried about redropping totems... Elemental, in my opinion, only has a place in a PvP build.
Totem Twisting is getting fixed in a patch fairly soon. Do you really want to rely on an obvious bug that could disappear in the next patch?
#5186SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Ahindwe
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Edit: My own guild mates are telling me that those DPS figures are your maximum DPS, not sustained, which makes sense given that a warrior did 1500 dps on Teron and was present 100% of the time, yet was outdamaged by a lock doing only 1100 dps and who was present for the same time :P
Did you do the math? On the first parse, he was doing damage for 142 seconds. He did a total of 241,567 damage. 241,567 divided by 142 gives you 1701, which is exactly what WWS is displaying as his DPS.

I didn't check the other two, but I imagine you'll find similar results.

I don't have the answer for the small inconsistencies you're seeing, but I think you're just being stubborn at this point.
#5187SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
WWS

That parse data doesn't add up. For instance, on Rage Winterchill, going by your damage alone, you DPSd for 142 seconds. Arkadu did more damage, but DPSed only 98% of the time, AND he did less DPS than you did. Whoever uploaded your stats obviously messed something up...

WWS

Same here. Arkadu did less DPS, but out damaged you by 20k damage, and was present for only 1% longer on a 197 second fight, again based off your damage and DPS. Why don't you post some Violation damage parses of your own. That will give us a MUCH more accurate reading of your damage :P

WWS

And look at that. You really only did 15 shocks the ENTIRE 3 minute fight? You could either do a lot more damage, or again the numbers are a bit quirky.... For instance, the fight took exactly 179 seconds by your damage to dps ratio, yet the actual parse is for only 2 minutes of data?
You don't understand how WWS works. Stop looking at Presence and start looking at DPS Time.

The reason Arkadu is dealing more damage than me while doing less DPS is because he's actually attacking the mob more than I am, and WWS accounts for this. For example on Rage Winterchill we move out of Death and Decay, I often take this opportunity to help top my group off, or give people instructions(I am leading the raid). Arkadu gains a little DPS time on the mob each time I do this. Me not doing this would not reduce my DPS in any way, in fact it would probably increase it. If you look at the Rage parse Arkadu has 100% DPS Time while I have 93%. That means that for 93% of my presence in the log I was actually dealing damage.

The DPS number WWS lists is the average DPS the player did over the period of time they were actually attacking the mob.

Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Edit: My own guild mates are telling me that those DPS figures are your maximum DPS, not sustained, which makes sense given that a warrior did 1500 dps on Teron and was present 100% of the time, yet was outdamaged by a lock doing only 1100 dps and who was present for the same time :P
Did you even think this through? Do you understand how high this number would be if what you were saying was correct?

Edit 2: I just got finished messing around with Yo!'s simulator. You would need something like 2800 AP unbuffed, 32% crit, 18% hit, 2% haste and 550 AP with BoK/Mark/BoM/LotP/TSA/BS/Drums/Haste/Elixir/Food and mongoose weapon enchant with 2 100.2 DPS weapons just to hit 1550 dps on a boss with 6200 armor. Would you care to explain how you can seemingly get 1800+ dps? :P
Do you understand that a fully debuffed boss has half that amount of armor or less in a raiding environment? Also, Yo's! simulator doesn't account for some things like multiple Bloodlusts, Expose Weakness, Improved Hunter's Mark etc.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/24/07 at 4:51 AM.
#5188SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Ahindwe View Post
Did you do the math? On the first parse, he was doing damage for 142 seconds. He did a total of 241,567 damage. 241,567 divided by 142 gives you 1701, which is exactly what WWS is displaying as his DPS.

I didn't check the other two, but I imagine you'll find similar results.

I don't have the answer for the small inconsistencies you're seeing, but I think you're just being stubborn at this point.
I assumed he was telling the truth and calculated the DPS time off of his numbers. Its everyone elses numbers that don't add up! For instance, going off of Retros damage, who DPSed the whole fight, it actually lasted 159 seconds. If he was present for 92% of that time, he would have dpsed for 146 seconds, while it only shows 142 or 90% DPS time. Now look at Arkadus, he was DPSing 98% of the fight for 1614 DPS. 98% of 159 seconds is 156 seconds, and that means he should have done ~251k, but he in fact did ~264k. Waaaaay to noisy for my liking.
#5189SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Totem Twisting is getting fixed in a patch fairly soon. Do you really want to rely on an obvious bug that could disappear in the next patch?
No -- I haven't totem twisted since the patch, and I only twisted before when I was threat-capped and needed TA. But what does that have to do with anything? If we're answering the question "How can I get the absolute maximum raid DPS?" the answer is: spec Enhance/Resto and totem twist. If we're answering the question "What is the easiest way to do respectable raid DPS?" the answer is: spec Enhance/Resto and don't totem twist. Enhance/Elemental gives you more DPS than Enhance/Resto without totem twisting, but at the cost of increased complexity and decreased utility, when you could have just stayed Enhance/Resto and totem twisted if you didn't mind the extra complexity.
#5190SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
You don't understand how WWS works. Stop looking at Presence and start looking at DPS Time.

The reason Arkadu is dealing more damage than me while doing less DPS is because he's actually attacking the mob more than I am, and WWS accounts for this. For example on Rage Winterchill we move out of Death and Decay, I often take this opportunity to help top my group off, or give people instructions(I am leading the raid). Arkadu gains a little DPS time on the mob each time I do this. Me not doing this would not reduce my DPS in any way, in fact it would probably increase it. If you look at the Rage parse Arkadu has 100% DPS Time while I have 93%. That means that for 93% of my presence in the log I was actually dealing damage.

The DPS number WWS lists is the average DPS the player did over the period of time they were actually attacking the mob.
And if I only attacked when my SS cooldown was up, I am sure I could inflate my numbers a bit too. Still, things do not add up, but I am willing to let it slide. My guild does not use WWS anymore, so I generally rely on my violation numbers. I've always felt that DPS is damage done over the course of the entire fight, not just the times I'm actually damaging so my own 1050 DPS figure is probably lower than what I am doing by your standards~
#5191SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
I've edited my reply to you above. I'd also like to add that yes, I really only did shock 15 times on Teron. Imagine how high that dps number would be if I was a better player.
#5192SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
No one said to not drop WF totem for your group. The point is that you think the extra 10 yards on your totems will increase your groups damage by more than you could increase your own damage by going a 16/45/0 build. As I pointed out, if the group has to move out of range of your totems, they aren't doing any DPS anyway so it really doesn't matter in 90%+ of the fights.
That isn't my argument. My argument is twisting will outdps elemental, and it will. If you want to throw it out because it might be fixed in a future patch then go for it. I find it odd that you are commenting on mobility fights when you haven't experienced three of the most movement intensive fights in the game.

The WWS are correct, click on Modrack's name; DPS time : 1mn (62 % of presence), DPS : 1510. Also, 326969/179=1826, accurate? Yes. Independently hosted WWS don't know how to show exact time, so it rounds to the nearest minute. Apparently he does hit that much harder.
#5193SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
You don't understand how WWS works. Stop looking at Presence and start looking at DPS Time.

The reason Arkadu is dealing more damage than me while doing less DPS is because he's actually attacking the mob more than I am, and WWS accounts for this. For example on Rage Winterchill we move out of Death and Decay, I often take this opportunity to help top my group off, or give people instructions(I am leading the raid). Arkadu gains a little DPS time on the mob each time I do this. Me not doing this would not reduce my DPS in any way, in fact it would probably increase it. If you look at the Rage parse Arkadu has 100% DPS Time while I have 93%. That means that for 93% of my presence in the log I was actually dealing damage.

The DPS number WWS lists is the average DPS the player did over the period of time they were actually attacking the mob.



Did you even think this through? Do you understand how high this number would be if what you were saying was correct?



Do you understand that a fully debuffed boss has half that amount of armor or less in a raiding environment? Also, Yo's! simulator doesn't account for some things like multiple Bloodlusts, Expose Weakness, Improved Hunter's Mark etc.
So basically what you are telling me is that if I were to use your standards for DPS time, I am actually doing 25-30% more DPS than what my in game meter is telling me. Very interesting to know for future reference :P
#5194SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
So basically what you are telling me is that if I were to use your standards for DPS time, I am actually doing 25-30% more DPS than what my in game meter is telling me. Very interesting to know for future reference :P
Teron DPS presence was 100%, and I don't understand how a comment about being present 93% of rage would equate to 25-30% more dps. You are missing these things on the sim, they are called armor debuffs. Sunder, Faerie Fire, Recklessness, ect make that value lower.
#5195SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by rava View Post
That isn't my argument. My argument is twisting will outdps elemental, and it will. If you want to throw it out because it might be fixed in a future patch then go for it. I find it odd that you are commenting on mobility fights when you haven't experienced three of the most movement intensive fights in the game.

The WWS are correct, click on Modrack's name; DPS time : 1mn (62 % of presence), DPS : 1510. Also, 326969/179=1826, accurate? Yes. Independently hosted WWS don't know how to show exact time, so it rounds to the nearest minute. Apparently he does hit that much harder.
My argument is that when you are not exploiting game mechanics, Elemental will out damage Restoration. You really can't refute that with anything you have thrown out today!

As far as the WWS parses, I admit they seem roughly legitimate as I crunch the numbers and compare the various times. Unfortunately they are also HIGHLY misleading, as they only count DPS when you are actually fighting a mob, and not when you are doing something else: like getting out of an AE, healing, dropping totems etc. Essentially free time to let your cooldowns refresh to give you that extra burst potential (WF/SS/Shocks). If I trimmed away all the non damage time crap that I do on a fight, I am sure I would come out with similar damage ratios that he has. He only has about 75 more AP and a tad more haste than I do presently!

Edit: I will try to get someone in my guild to run the numbers for Gorefiend tonight and compare notes.
#5196SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Sebudai
Do you realize you were just proven wrong about ten different ways and yet for some reason you're still acting like a condescending douchebag? I mean, do you want me to return the favor? Perhaps me and my guild are just better at dealing damage than you and your guild? Do you really want to get in a dick waving contest with me or something? You're basically trolling at this point, and these aren't the forums for that.

They're not "my" standards, they're WWS' standards, and they're perfectly reasonable and pretty much agreed upon by all of the people that actually know how WWS works. Clearly you're not one of those people since I just had to explain to you some of WWS' most basic functions. Where exactly did you pull that 25-30% number from anyway?

I could very easily not heal my group at all on Rage, or just neglect my raid leading duties and focus more on dealing maximum damage. My DPS would be exactly the same or higher. Not only are those DPS numbers accurate, but they could clearly be higher if I played better. You're just plain wrong about that 1200 DPS number. It's okay to be wrong.

You're completely exaggerating the dps I gain from the way WWS calculates it. It is very marginal at best. Hell, next clear I'll make sure I have 100% DPS Time on every encounter so my guilds parses can meet your demanding standards.

Also, could you give me an accurate armory link? It looks like your pvp spec now, but if you normally use most of that gear in pve, you are in fact quite a bit behind me gear-wise, which would account for some of the difference in DPS.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/24/07 at 5:58 AM.
#5197SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
My argument is that when you are not exploiting game mechanics, Elemental will out damage Restoration. You really can't refute that with anything you have thrown out today!

As far as the WWS parses, I admit they seem roughly legitimate as I crunch the numbers and compare the various times. Unfortunately they are also HIGHLY misleading, as they only count DPS when you are actually fighting a mob, and not when you are doing something else: like getting out of an AE, healing, dropping totems etc. Essentially free time to let your cooldowns refresh to give you that extra burst potential (WF/SS/Shocks). If I trimmed away all the non damage time crap that I do on a fight, I am sure I would come out with similar damage ratios that he has. He only has about 75 more AP and a tad more haste than I do presently!

Edit: I will try to get someone in my guild to run the numbers for Gorefiend tonight and compare notes.
It isn't an exploit, WoW Forums -> Totem Twisting

Originally Posted by Eyonix
Okay, here's the situation. It's not an exploit, and no sorry, it's not really considered creative use of game mechanics either, based on what that term usually is intended to imply. You're free to take advantage of "totem twisting", but be aware -- we do plan to address it at some point in the future.
Later in the thread:

Originally Posted by Eyonix
We'd love to prevent "totem twisting" right now, but there are technical limitations that we must overcome first, combined with the fact that it's not a big deal.
I'll leave the WWS dwellings and gear comparisons alone because I am entirely too lazy to put any effort into it.
#5198SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
everwatch
First off I saw one argument comparing spec'ing Ele versus Totem Twisting. This has to be one of the stupidest arguments ever. Ele spec can totem twist. You're done. We have so little mana issues now you can still totem twist while being spec'd Ele. Drop that one. Sure resto gets a mana break, but Ele spec'd shaman can totem twist too.

Shock damage. I listed several WWS where Shocks at their low were 13% of my damage and at their high were 19% of my damage. Through my testing I have found shocks to be 16% of my total dmg on average. This is in part due to *MY* playstle since I've seen other shaman with only 10% of their dmg from shocks since 2.3 which really does boggle me, but hey. Whatever. So what this means is that Shock damage, depending on your gear, playstyle, preferences, latency, computer, skill, etc... is likely to range somewhere between 10-18% of your total damage done. I can tell you from personal experience that if you are sharp on your GCD timers that 16% is very achievable. It is not however a static number for everyone. It isn't 15% of your damage, or 10%, or 16%. The previous example of your white damage needing to 7 times greater than your shock damage is a more static and useful tool. Apply that to your personal Shock damage results will yield the correct assumption.

Resto vs Ele. As Malan said about Executioner vs Mongoose, I'd like to mimic him here. They are close enough to not truly require you to spec one way or the other. I have spec'd Resto and Ele both since 2.3 and found the differences to be minimal. It is a playstle preference. Do you like 5 second cooldown shocks for interrupts and dps with Ele Warding? Or do you like faster ankhs/heals and totem range improvements? Whatever floats your boat is the right answer. The dps overage is not enough to say any one spec trumps the versatility of the other.

As to totem ranges nerfing DPS. If you're a shaman worth your salt, then you know when a boss moves to drop a WF totem first, and to do so before the melee makes it into range of the boss. You also know that the WF pulse has a long enough duration to drop another totem near the melee so they don't lose it. Totem range is about "easy mode" or just being lazy about managing GCD's. *AND* if you do totem twist, then drop it because you're dropping totems left and right and can move them around easy. Your dps also knows to stay in range of the stupid totems. There are so few fights where the BOSS will move AWAY from the TOTEMS that totem range being an issue is BS. And if GCD is the issue - and you're worried about the raid dps like you say you are, then don't Shock/SS. Drop new totems. It's simple. *IF ANYTHING* reduced totem range nerfs *your* dps. Because if you're being a good raider, you're putting your totems out before Shocking/SS'ing.

I went Ele and I have noticed the range loss. It hurts. But it just means *I* have to work harder and manage my GCD's not only more often but more efficiently as well. And my melee boys have not once complained about even once being out of WF range. And I've asked.

As to potential Enhance DPS. I personally am a "weirdo shammy". I went full T5 instead of taking the best pieces that I could. Why? Because I dug the way the set looked. Simple. I nerfed my dps in order to look cool. Selfish? Sure. But then it's my game and I play it the way I want to. So speaking as such, I maintain anywhere between 900-1200 dps on average depending on the fight and what is required of me. Also as to how well the group is stacked in my favor. So knowing that, I think it's very reasonable to extrapolate that an "optimally geared shaman" could maintain on average 1200-1500 dps on average. Keep in mind that fights such as Shade/Akama/and a few others see my dps in a range of 1200-1500. I don't speak of max, I speak of averages.


You guys are usually very tight and facts roll out most of the time. Some newer posts have lead to some bickering. I hate seeing that. If you have some new data, back it with some WWS's or SS's. And if you're going to call out a long time respected poster, think about what you're saying and make sure you can back up what you say too.

Last edited by everwatch : 11/24/07 at 6:11 AM.
#5199SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tahirne
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Same here. Arkadu did less DPS, but out damaged you by 20k damage, and was present for only 1% longer on a 197 second fight, again based off your damage and DPS.
Arkadu hacks.
Seb, tell Hakle I say hello. Miss the guy.

Seb, your numbers really are impressive. Goodjob on all the fights.
I personally pull 1000-1100 DPS Depending on the encounter and raid setup.
Seeing 1600-1750 Is a very nice thing to look up to when gear improves.

Now as for the Elemental/Enhance Vs Enhancement/Resto, In my personal opinion I would believe 2/45/15 to be superior, mainly because the argument for Elemental/Enhance is overall more shock damage while those arguing for that tend to ignore the fact that your losing 3% spell hit from specing out of natures guidance as well.

Gaining 3% more shock Damage for the loss of 3% less spell/melee hit - No thanks.
#5200SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nuala
Wondering about fist weapons ...

Hello, I just read this post with great attention and I am sure it will help me gear myself up better.

But I ran a search and did not find any relevant information on fist weapons.

I currently run on 2 Runic Hammers and plan to take a gladiator weapon, with honor points or arena points I don't know yet. I guess I need to choose between better gear and worse weapon or better weapon and lower gear.

Three weapons are available, Mace Axe or Fist Weapon. In the first post, you tend to encourage people to take an Axe if they are Orcs or a Mace, but you do not speak of Fist Weapons.

Tell me if I am wrong but there is no difference in stats or DPS on those three weapons, The only difference I see is that the Gladiator Right Ripper is not as regular a weapon, it has a bigger top damage number and a smaller lower damage number. The damage window is larger wich in turn will lead to higher crits and higher WF procs but also the worse crits and the worse WF procs.

This could be an asset in pvp because high damage is more difficult to heal through (though resilience has seen to that) but you could also end up with very low damage if you are unlucky.
This is a drawback in pve because it adds to the random DPS a Shaman tends to do while he relies on procs.

I am sure I am missing something on fist weapons and why not use them, so I would be thankful if someone could enlighten me with the correct information.

Thanks in advance.
#5201SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Boro
@ Sebudai

Your figures in the WWS parses are very similar to mine for BT but in Hyjal you seem to be doing more dps. But as someone once said (Malan and Rob i think) in an earlier response to one of my posts....WWS is not comparable between different guilds raids etc its such a subjective way to do things. One thing is for sure though that the average dps in your raids across all classes is very high no slackers there for sure :-) Do you tend to run with 6/7 healers these days?

With regards to WWS I see your guild does not use the online service for hosting as the links you show are to your guilds web space. I think you are therefore using the local generation of stats and hosting the results your selves. I would be grateful if you could ask your WWS guys how they manage to get the whole fight for Akama, including the Channellers and other mobs. When you host a BT parse on WWS servers it only shows Akama as a fight from the time he is released. Do your guys trim the logs? for each fight and host them? If so I think this may be a better way to give more accurate and meaningful parses, focussing specifically on each encounter.

I did a raid last night in ZA with the elemental spec 16/45/0 ( thought I would try it out before our Hyjal/BT clear tomorrow) within the first 2 bosses I had party messages from my group asking if WF was down lol. I think you know the reasons why......I ended up totem twisting......but just WF!!
#5202SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Kalince
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
As far as the WWS parses, I admit they seem roughly legitimate as I crunch the numbers and compare the various times. Unfortunately they are also HIGHLY misleading, as they only count DPS when you are actually fighting a mob, and not when you are doing something else: like getting out of an AE, healing, dropping totems etc.
No they give you both numbers. They raw overall damage explains how much damage you did on the fight and the raid members are even ranked by this number by default. WWS also gives you the DPS while you are actually fighting but the goal as a raider would be to increase both of these numbers given a fight of the same length. A DPS time goal of 100% is reasonable given you keep the flame shock dot up at all times (resists will knock this down but that is why it is a goal).

In any case his 92% DPS is a reasonable time DPsing as I typically get around that with Rage and still his numbers are way higher then mine given similar gear which is rather surprising. I think I pretty much have the cause narrowed down though which is the things he has over me is BoM (I hate our paladins), possibly group composition (where is the feral druid), and better overall raid DPS will inflate anyone's numbers who get a heroism.

P.S. - Every single example you gave of WWS calculating things wrong you are either using the wrong numbers or you are doing the math wrong (I checked each one).
#5203SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
WWS parses are misleading, they can be incomplete, etc.

They are useless to generate theory, only hypothesis and confirmation.

But at the very least, understand the metrics you're disputing. That bit about DPS time and flame shock I did not realize, though I should have, as I raid with a shadow priest who's usually at 99% dps time.
#5204SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0gorsameth
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
But at the very least, understand the metrics you're disputing. That bit about DPS time and flame shock I did not realize, though I should have, as I raid with a shadow priest who's usually at 99% dps time.
The reeason flame shock will raise your dps time is because of the way WWS checks if you are dpsing a mob. by having flameshock up you will deal dmg every few seconds which stops the report from thinking your not hitting the boss at that point
Which is why classes like a shadowpriest have 99-100% dps time because there is always a dot ticking.
#5205SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
I guess it depends on if you are fighting a mob that is constantly casting spells or a mob that does mostly melee attacks. But no, I've never seen a 1500 DPS situation outside of Teron Gorefiend. Show me your AP/Crit/Hit that gives you 1500 DPS on Yo!s simulator, please.
Hmmm you're so wrong on so many fronts.

I achieve 1500+ dps on many fights in BT/Hyjal. I even posted WWS logs of 1500+ dps excluding totem damage....

Also, Yo's sim gives me 1650-1700 dps. My stats are 1880 AP/20.03% hit/33.98% crit, with standard group buffs like battle shout, BoM. Check it out for yourself :/
#5206SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by rava View Post
It isn't an exploit, WoW Forums -> Totem Twisting



Later in the thread:



I'll leave the WWS dwellings and gear comparisons alone because I am entirely too lazy to put any effort into it.
Perhaps exploit is too hard of a word, but it is certainly a bug and it is certainly going to be fixed. Better to get off the juice now than miss it later :P
#5207SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Illundai
<editted, terrible mood - apologies>

Last edited by Illundai : 11/24/07 at 2:33 PM.
#5208SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
That you can only do 1500 dps on Teron is utter bulllshit. Sorry, you really do feel like a WoW forum troll.
While I admit that RoS is a slightly "gimped" fight for damage comparisons, I had 2086 dps on all 3 phases combined.

So Teron is definitly not the only fight you can do 1500 dps on :P

/sarcasm off
#5209SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
While I admit that RoS is a slightly "gimped" fight for damage comparisons, I had 2086 dps on all 3 phases combined.

So Teron is definitly not the only fight you can do 1500 dps on :P

/sarcasm off
Well, I accept that I was wrong about the DPS aspect, but I do still feel that the WWS dps numbers can be incomplete and misleading, as others have mentioned so far. My own criteria for DPS is Total Damage / (Time of engagement till NPC death) or (Time of engagement until your death) where the time of engagement is the moment the MT gets agro until the moment the mob dies. None of this 'well I was healing for 25 seconds of the fight so this doesn't impact my DPS' or 'I was getting out of range of the AE or redropping totems' manipulative quirks :P

So by that standard, Sebudai, your real DPS on these fights was:

RWC - 172 seconds of tanking, 1404 instead of 1701 (-17.5%)
Anetheron - 217 seconds of tanking, 1450 instead of 1596 (-9.2%)
Kaz'rogal - 175 seconds of tanking, 1367 instead of 1495 (-8.6%)
Naj'entus - 225 seconds of tanking, 1278 instead of 1403 (-8.9%)
Teron - 191 seconds of tanking, 1712 instead of 1826 (-6.2%)

So again, without the quirks, your DPS is well short of 1500 dps on all fights but Teron. It seems that the more you have to stay out of melee DPS (such as avoiding D&D) the more inflated your total DPS becomes.
#5210SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Ok this line of discussion just needs to stop. Several of you are acting like total asshats right now.
#5211SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
*how* can you do so much dps? share your secrets... sure, I need to get me a RT/Syphon or Syphon/Syphon combo yet, but the rest of my gear is pretty similar to all of your guys claiming to do such high dps.. our rogues don't even hit 1400 most of the time
#5212SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0dardack
Ok I'll leave the resto/ele discussion to others along with the DPS numbers, since i'm still in T4 stuff and my guild is just doing gruuls and started ZA and clearing prince on kara. My question is how to compaire AEP numbers for different speeded weapons with different DPS numbers. I know i posted this a few pages ago, but I've still been searching for a way and still haven't found an answer. I like to use a spreadsheet for my gear, each page has weapons i have, helms, chestpieces, etc, along with pieces i know could dropfrom the bosses we are doing and any weapons i maybe able to make in the future. So i've used pitbulls numbers i believe for the AEP numbers for DPS on weapons. I know that slower with same DPS is better, but what about differing DPS numbers with differing speeds. My thought was taking the 8.48MH/4.24OH numbers, taking those dividing by 2.6 (the original weapon speed) and then multiplying by the current weapon speed. This will make faster ie 2.2 worse and slower 2.8 better, where i know we don't want to get over 2.7 i think, maybe 2.8, so obviously i don't compare anything slower than that. So basically (AEP of DPS/2.6)*Current Weapons speed. My math skills have left me as i've gotten out of college over the years, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
#5213SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Ok this line of discussion just needs to stop. Several of you are acting like total asshats right now.
Very well. I apologize for being an asshat to anyone
#5214SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
*how* can you do so much dps? share your secrets... sure, I need to get me a RT/Syphon or Syphon/Syphon combo yet, but the rest of my gear is pretty similar to all of your guys claiming to do such high dps.. our rogues don't even hit 1400 most of the time
Well firstly, is your raid maximising it's debuffs? I'm talking sunder+CoR+FF etc, do you have expose weakness, Imp Hunters mark etc etc. If you are, then your rogues are plain lacking dps.

Secondary, your gear isn't *that* close to the people you are comparing with. Only had a quick glance but your crit is low which has a big effect on flurry uptime, if you look at others (mine for example) we are running with 32-34% crit unbuffed so in raids its upto around 38-42% constantly = 90%+ flurried strikes and 100% UR. I recommend ditching those rings and get others, the hyjal one atleast for example.

Lastly, it's purely a case of paying attention to GCDs as there really isn't any secret to dpsing as enhancement its just a matter of using SS and shocks as soon as the cooldown is up and always drop totems when SS & shocks are on cooldown.
#5215SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Myul
The difference in the personal damage depends a LOT from your raid composition:

Druid: oomkin +3% hit, feral +5% crit if he's in your group; fearie fire applied?
Paladin: retribution +3% crit & +2% dmg if he's in your group
Hunter: +3% per beastmaster if they're in your group, survival ~ +300 AP from expose weakness, marksmanship +440 AP from improved hunter's mark
Warrior: improved battleshout + solarian trinket, blood frenzy +4% dmg?, sunder armor applied?
Warlock: Curse of recklessness (!)

(multiple) leatherworker with [Drums of War] or [Drums of Battle] in your group? Do you chainchug hastepots? And while comparing gear on charsheets, did you look for possibile proccs, weapon expertise and armor penetration?

---

Resto or ele?
I would never drop the 10yards on my totem range on any (trashwaves) fight in hyal. And i really like totem twisting a lot, totemic focus helps. The personal damage might be a little higher with reverbation, but without totem twisting my group damage will drop a lot (more?).

Last edited by Myul : 11/24/07 at 4:38 PM. Reason: adding something
#5216SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
The difference in the personal damage depends a LOT from your raid composition:

Druid: oomkin +3% hit, feral +5% crit if he's in your group; fearie fire applied?
Paladin: retribution +3% crit & +2% dmg if he's in your group
Hunter: +3% per beastmaster if they're in your group, survival ~ +300 AP from expose weakness, marksmanship +440 AP from improved hunter's mark
Warrior: improved battleshout + solarian trinket, blood frenzy +4% dmg?, sunder armor applied?
Warlock: Curse of recklessness (!)

(multiple) leatherworker with [Drums of War] or [Drums of Battle] in your group? Do you chainchug hastepots? And while comparing gear on charsheets, did you look for possibile proccs, weapon expertise and armor penetration?

---

Resto or ele?
I would never drop the 10yards on my totem range on any (trashwaves) fight in hyal. And i really like totem twisting a lot, totemic focus helps. The personal damage might be a little higher with reverbation, but without totem twisting my group damage will drop a lot (more?).
Side note, imp hunter's mark only applies to the base ap(110).
#5217SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
I. Adding to Ele VS Resto flame:
1.Each individual shock is effectively increased by 1.3% only, when going ele from resto:
0,83*1,05/0,86 = 1,013
2. Loosing 3% melee hit is affecting not only the white part even with hit cap being reached for yellow attacks.
Your on-hit procs from items and your windfurry damage are directly affected.
It is not 3% of white damage it is 3%*7/5 at least not counting trinkets and cross-effect.
3. Whole elemental damage part is dependant on how many shocks per 2 min cycle you can upkeep. 2 min - because totems, UR, pot and possibly trinket are on this timer and you need to renew them.
Those who specced resto are usually in the range 12-14 shocks per 2 minutes instead of 20.
Keep in mind that shocks have low priority - if you shock but SS or trinket activation are delayed - your total dps is going to drop because 85%+ of your damage comes from melee.
Here is a table of dps increases one will see if being able to perform 4 shocks more over 2 minutes while speccing from resto to ele if all raid spell buffs will be ready for your use:
Eleresto - INFOSTORE.ORG
If you think that 18 shocks over 2 minutes is easy - please show your wws.

II. Sim
"To do list":
Stonebreaker relic
Executioner enchant
Expertise replacing weapon skill + inclusion into EP calculation
Zul'Amani buff
Saving settings between sessions
Elemental damage part review
EP step scale
(melee damage is being predicted with std as low as 1 leading to EP values std of 0.3 but introduction of spell damage part added its own std of 1-2 leading to unacceptable std of EP values - 0,6+ with 10,000 hours setup, further increasing hours is not helping, so there are 2 ways to go - redesign spell part and introduce option of higher AP/rating steps while calculating EP values)
Mana balance calculation (per 2 minutes cycle)
Internal item's database
Dressing room
GUI selection of items
Items import (parsing item's tooltip)
Full character import from WoW armory

"It will be done when it will be ready" (c) Blizzard

III. Ignore armor
IA is unique in that if you are stacking it - it's EP value is increasing.
This can possibly lead to a situation when EP values suggest upgrade direction with balanced stats while it is possible to "jump" to another local extremum (with possible higher dps) with a lot of AI within same item's budget.

IV. Rhetoric question
How the hell Blizzard thinks one can effectively tune their characters (gear/talents/playstyle) without going deep into theorycrafting? And they continue to add new stats into mix..

Originally Posted by dardack View Post
I like to use a spreadsheet for my gear, each page has weapons i have, helms, chestpieces, etc, along with pieces i know could dropfrom the bosses we are doing and any weapons i maybe able to make in the future. So i've used pitbulls numbers i believe for the AEP numbers for DPS on weapons.
Don't use other's EP numbers - find your own. As for comparing weapons with different speeds - it's too complex to do it directly with EP (for me at least) but you can use alternative - run simulation (your spreadsheet will provide you with starting numbers) and compare resulting dps.
#5218SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
@Yo - The sim no longer functions with OS X 10.5.1 Leopard, the Mac Java package broke Java 6 functionality. I'm not sure if your code is using actualy Java 6 methods or if you're just compiling it with Java 6 for the heck of it?
#5219SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
@Yo - The sim no longer functions with OS X 10.5.1 Leopard, the Mac Java package broke Java 6 functionality. I'm not sure if your code is using actualy Java 6 methods or if you're just compiling it with Java 6 for the heck of it?
All design elements are from Java 6 (fancy buttons, etc.). Java turned out to be not that universal (including different looks on different systems). Hopefully Java 6 will be supported by Macs soon.
#5220SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Destro
Apologies if this is too specific or anything, but I'd appreciate some comforting feedback. I haven't noticed this posted yet.

I ran my stats through Yo's sim for 10,000 hours and got agility as worth more than strength. Isn't this a little odd? I've never seen any raiding enhancement shaman gem towards agility over strength. If I run it for 1,000 hours I get a set of seemingly more sensible results, is this just some inaccuracy of the calculator or are these my real AEP values? I see no way in which I've made an error in inputting my stats.

EDIT: I just read Yo's post, is this possibly an error from ticking the AP -> +dmg conversion box?

Stats increased by 10% for kings and including talents:

1613AP, 30.5% crit, 15.02% hit, 2% haste, 0 Arm Pen, DS/Merc Glad, double WF Mongoose etc etc.

Crit: 2.37
Hit: 1.86
Haste: 2.21
Arm Pen: 0.28
Str: 2.2
Agi: 2.31

Thanks.

Last edited by Destro : 11/24/07 at 6:31 PM. Reason: clarity
#5221SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Destro View Post
EDIT: I just read Yo's post, is this possibly an error from ticking the AP -> +dmg conversion box?
Variation of EP (AEP) values is too high after selecting AP->dmg conversion making EP values produced with it being "on" unreliable. Use sim without conversion and substruct 0.1-0.2 from all values except Str and AP as a workaround for now.
#5222SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Destro
Thanks a lot, Yo.
#5223SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Perhaps exploit is too hard of a word, but it is certainly a bug and it is certainly going to be fixed. Better to get off the juice now than miss it later :P
Why should you gimp yourself now just because you'll be nerfed later? The only time that makes sense is when the nerfs result in having to relearn how to play. With something like the removal of mana conserve mods for healing, it made sense to learn how to play without them prior to 1.10 coming out so that you wouldn't have a raid full of healers going OOM at 90% when 1.10 did come out. With totem twisting, you have to learn to... not hit your totem twist macro. It seems very unlikely that you don't already know how to do that. The only thing that you might have to "learn" is how to beat fights with slightly less DPS, but it's a low priority bug that isn't easy to fix. I would not be at all surprised to see totem twisting still working well into WotLK.
#5224SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
I also made some calculations today. With my values as a base, I tried to answer two questions:

a.) With the new Mental Quickness, in which amount has the value of AP increased?
b.) How many EP do I need to increase my DPS by 1%?

Well, I don't want to post the whole calculations here, but I got my two answers:

a.) The benefit of AP has increased by around 3%. Which means, that you can divide all other values by 1.03, as long as the sim can't calculate stable EP values with Mental Quickness active.
b.) 50 EP translates to a 1% total DPS increase.
#5225SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
a) The value of AP is and will always be, 1. Its what all the other values are based upon. It doesn't increase or decrease. Its just 1. It is the rock, the foundation that all other values derive from.

b) EP is boiling things down into an attack power equivalence. So that's great, you just said that 50 Attack Power increases your DPS by 1%.

Short version - you haven't discovered anything new.
#5251SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mano
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Chaman2 totem addon from Ace displeys the number of party members within each totems range. I pretty much couldn't play without, it makes totem dropping & selecting a complete breeze.

Edit* - It doesn't show some totems, like tremor for example, not exactly sure why, but it does show the numbers on WF/GoA/SoE/Mana/Healing etc so you can pretty much say if everyones in range of WF, then everyones in range of the others.
ok, thanks. I'll try it out.
#5252SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Revdarian
It must do a buff check, the totems it doesn�t display are those that do not put a buff over the player but instead pulse an effect, like for example Poison Cleansing, Disease Cleansing, Tremor Totem, etc.
#5253SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Danath
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
That's *great* info Yo!. I'm going to be looking at these parses more closely to see exactly what can be gleaned.

Ok, so the first thing that I see is that they're in range of the wf totem about 10% less of the time (averaging 36 as opposed to 40 or so WF extra attacks without him vs with him).

Also, the rogues' dps time is about 5% lower in the parses without him, which affects the overall numbers.

Other than that, the data looks pretty good. I don't think it's unreasonable to thing that would be standard - that a resto/elemental shaman wouldn't be able to maintain as much wf uptime/proximity as an enhance shaman. 100dps extra per rogue by having him in the group seems reasonable to me.
Are you talking about the Shaman Enhancement or a Shaman specced in another way when you refer to "him" ultimately?
#5254SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
This is kind of a 'duh' post but there are too many wws comparing posts and I think I is important for people to consider these ideas when looking at wws parses.

1) You cannot just click random wws reports and compare their shaman numbers with your own. You must also compare total raid dps on their side with your own raid dps. Assume a 4M HP boss. If their raid has 16000 dps and yours has 12000 dps that means their fight was done in 250 seconds and yours in 333. So they were bloodlusted for 16% of their raid and you were bloodlusted for 12% of yours. Your guildmates can have a profound on your dps and it needs to be taken into consideration when analyzing wws parses.

2) Also please remember that there is large variance for enhance dps. Load up Yo's sim and put in all default values and a simulation time of 1 hour. After clicking simulate 10-15 times I had a minimum result of 901 and a maximum result of 951. This is after one hour of simulation meaning this data should be far tighter than anything we would see against a boss. DPS swings in the 5-10% range are to be expected, do not get worried about them.
#5255SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Chaman2 totem addon from Ace displeys the number of party members within each totems range. I pretty much couldn't play without, it makes totem dropping & selecting a complete breeze.

Edit* - It doesn't show some totems, like tremor for example, not exactly sure why, but it does show the numbers on WF/GoA/SoE/Mana/Healing etc so you can pretty much say if everyones in range of WF, then everyones in range of the others.
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
#5256SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
It hasn't been updated in over 30 days according to the version I have installed on my local machine. The problem w/ chaman is that it is actually named something else: "TotemManager" (on Curse<-- that is a link btw, because I can never see them on the EJ forums), the folder is just named chaman.
#5257SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
You must not have looked very hard :/ can't be any more specific than the exact addon name.

But heres a link for you, wowace c list then just go down the list to Chaman2 ....

Oh, and just found it on wowaceupdater, in the outdated section.
#5258SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Capital
Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
Chaman2

Edit: Too slow
#5259SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Totemus can also be set to track how many of your party members are in range of your totems. I can't remember the name of the option, but it's the third setting on the slider at the bottom of the timer configuration window. Doesn't track windfury or pulse totems but it does track SoE/GoA/healing stream/mana spring.
#5260SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
You must not have looked very hard :/ can't be any more specific than the exact addon name.

But heres a link for you, wowace c list then just go down the list to Chaman2 ....

Oh, and just found it on wowaceupdater, in the outdated section.
Which is why I didnt see it :P
#5261SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
But it *is* entirely possible to do this, and keep it sustained for a whole fight. A situation that interupts your cast flow (archi air burst, silences etc) do the same for an enh/resto shaman, and as long as you can instantly recognise what has the highest priority to cast as soon as you are next able it works out fine.

For the non air totems they can be redropped in the 'spare' gcd one at a time, no need to be doing a mass redrop all at once. And I haven't found any fight (including trash) where I cannot keep my group fully totemed the whole time.

The point here is not to try and convince people that enh/ele is better than enh/resto, just that they are both equally viable. Neither has a noticable total raid dps lead on the other, they do however offer a slightly different play style from each other. People should be trying them both and going with what they like and works for them, not trying to get the answer to 'which is best for all shaman', because as things stand there is no answer.
I thought that this went without saying, but there is no way in hell you are going to have the mana to support this. With 8k buffed mana(pretty high estimate) and simply doing 2 shocks/10 sec, 2 totems/10 sec, Stormstrike, Searing/1min, and Mana Spring/SoE/2min you run into ~1800 mana/10 sec period. Now, with water shield, mana spring, and wisdom(lolright?) you still fall ~220/5 short of keeping up 1800 mana/10 sec, not including fire nova and searing totem rotations.
#5262SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Garlik
sorry if this has been answerd before, gone through main post and last few pages and couldnt find an answer*

when it comes to pvp , what would be a better weapon enchant choice? mongoose/mongoose or mongoose/exe ?
#5263SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Originally Posted by Garlik View Post
sorry if this has been answerd before, gone through main post and last few pages and couldnt find an answer*

when it comes to pvp , what would be a better weapon enchant choice? mongoose/mongoose or mongoose/exe ?
I think this thread is pretty much dedicated to PvE, but I'll answer anyway.

Without throwing around any numbers:

Assume Mongoose and Executioner are very close to equal in terms of plain vannilla dps increase.
Mongoose increases DPS through crit, which is mitigated by resiliance (crits do less bonus damage).
PvP gear now has passive armor pen, Amor Pen is better when you've got more of it.

Executioner doesn't increase your dodge though. Dodging helps you defensivly against warriors(somewhat) and rogues when they can't get behind you.

I'm going to assume that Mongoose/executioner is your better pvp option for most cases.
#5264SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Dodge helps against rogues while you are not stunned, only exception being with 41 combat talent finishers cant be dodged i think?
#5265SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
A question to other BT/Hijal Shamans:
How are you adjusting your EP numbers for mental quickness? (Yo's sim is a little broken atm)

I've been trying to evaluate some gear using my own personal EP from Yo's simulator. (Thank you for this wonderfull tool that keeps my entertained durring my working hours. My boss however would probably not like you because of that.) But I was getting some wildely different values from it for the exact same sim inputs. I read the notes below it and saw:

EP calculation unstability when using 30% ap to spell damage talent option
So I guess I'll have to turn that off untill its fixed? In the mean time how should I calculate these numbers? I've been tempted to turn that option off and just fudge the numbers a bit since I know it would make my other stats slightly lower in EP weight. How have you adjusted your numbers and why?

I'm not asking for my numbers to be calculated for me, I'd just like to hear how others are doing their own (and their reasoning) so I can decide the best way to do mine.
#5266SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bdatik
Originally Posted by justinr View Post
So I guess I'll have to turn that off untill its fixed? In the mean time how should I calculate these numbers? I've been tempted to turn that option off and just fudge the numbers a bit since I know it would make my other stats slightly lower in EP weight. How have you adjusted your numbers and why?

I'm not asking for my numbers to be calculated for me, I'd just like to hear how others are doing their own (and their reasoning) so I can decide the best way to do mine.
I believe Yo! said a couple pages back that you should turn it off (like you assumed). Then run your numbers and subtract 0.1 - 0.2 from all stats except Strength and Attack Power.

Ahh, here we go:

Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Variation of EP (AEP) values is too high after selecting AP->dmg conversion making EP values produced with it being "on" unreliable. Use sim without conversion and substruct 0.1-0.2 from all values except Str and AP as a workaround for now.
#5267SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by justinr View Post
A question to other BT/Hijal Shamans:
How are you adjusting your EP numbers for mental quickness? (Yo's sim is a little broken atm)

I've been trying to evaluate some gear using my own personal EP from Yo's simulator. (Thank you for this wonderfull tool that keeps my entertained durring my working hours. My boss however would probably not like you because of that.) But I was getting some wildely different values from it for the exact same sim inputs. I read the notes below it and saw:



So I guess I'll have to turn that off untill its fixed? In the mean time how should I calculate these numbers? I've been tempted to turn that option off and just fudge the numbers a bit since I know it would make my other stats slightly lower in EP weight. How have you adjusted your numbers and why?

I'm not asking for my numbers to be calculated for me, I'd just like to hear how others are doing their own (and their reasoning) so I can decide the best way to do mine.
To be honest, I don't think any of the "best" items have changed since my gear has got better. Base values -> Inflated values each slot still has clear winners, the only real difference is the total points an item is worth is much higher.
#5268SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Originally Posted by Bdatik View Post
I believe Yo! said a couple pages back that you should turn it off (like you assumed). Then run your numbers and subtract 0.1 - 0.2 from all stats except Strength and Attack Power.

Ahh, here we go:
Ah thanks.

To be honest, I don't think any of the "best" items have changed since my gear has got better. Base values -> Inflated values each slot still has clear winners, the only real difference is the total points an item is worth is much higher.
I was doing my comparisons on some badge gear to replace some old items for things I haven't been able to get the best items for yet. Just something to keep me busy outside raiding. :P (like leather badge pants vs T5 that I haven't gotten bow stiched to replace yet)
#5269SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Danath View Post
Are you talking about the Shaman Enhancement or a Shaman specced in another way when you refer to "him" ultimately?
I meant that having an enhancement shaman in the group with the rogues seemed to provide about 100 dps extra than having a non-enhance shaman (but still a shaman!) in that group. This comes partially from UR, partially from higher WF access uptime and enhanced melee totems.
#5270SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0JulianMaiev
A quick search didn't find any math on this, but I might have missed it-- is it possible that an Elemental Devastation build could be viable assuming that you are casting frost shocks of some rank, that you have an additional 10% crit from Winter's Chill, and that you have 3% crit from Imp JotC?

I understand that's a lot of assumptions, but that should put you at around an 18% crit rate. Since the recent round of math seems to have ele/enh builds very close to enh/resto builds anyway, might that be a worthwhile place to invest a couple of talent points?
#5271SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Psibeast
Having reached 4 piece T5 and the awsome set bonus that comes with it I was looking forward to what T6 has to offer and it seems very bad compared to the T5 set bonuses. Each piece by itself is an improvement as stats go, but the set bonuses are much worse.

I wanted to ask other shaman who are doing MH/BT and had 4 pc. T5 bonus, did you go for T6, or did you stick with 4 pieces of T5 to keep the bonus and just upgraded other slots? Is it worth losing the set bonus for the extra stats on the T6 gear?

Thanks
#5272SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skiace
Originally Posted by JulianMaiev View Post
A quick search didn't find any math on this, but I might have missed it-- is it possible that an Elemental Devastation build could be viable assuming that you are casting frost shocks of some rank, that you have an additional 10% crit from Winter's Chill, and that you have 3% crit from Imp JotC?

I understand that's a lot of assumptions, but that should put you at around an 18% crit rate. Since the recent round of math seems to have ele/enh builds very close to enh/resto builds anyway, might that be a worthwhile place to invest a couple of talent points?
There was significant discussion of this very topic within the last 10 pages or so.
#5273SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Abakus
Originally Posted by Garlik
sorry if this has been answerd before, gone through main post and last few pages and couldnt find an answer*

when it comes to pvp , what would be a better weapon enchant choice? mongoose/mongoose or mongoose/exe ?
It depends on which bracket you are playing.

But for most matchups, i would recommend exec/mongoose, as crits result in many beneficial effects on most classes. More to purge means you might miss that one important BoP/BoF.

As S3-Gear has some armor pen on it to stack with exec, imho just go exec/mogoose
#5274SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I thought that this went without saying, but there is no way in hell you are going to have the mana to support this. With 8k buffed mana(pretty high estimate) and simply doing 2 shocks/10 sec, 2 totems/10 sec, Stormstrike, Searing/1min, and Mana Spring/SoE/2min you run into ~1800 mana/10 sec period. Now, with water shield, mana spring, and wisdom(lolright?) you still fall ~220/5 short of keeping up 1800 mana/10 sec, not including fire nova and searing totem rotations.
Don't forget the mana gains of Shamanistic Rage!

But I do agree that doing a full shock/twisting/totem rotation isn't possible due to GCD problems.
#5275SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by panny View Post
But I do agree that doing a full shock/twisting/totem rotation isn't possible due to GCD problems.
Its possible, I was doing it on Teron Gorefiend on Sunday night. It wasn't exactly a full shock rotation though, but I would refresh the totems, stormstrike and then shock at whatever opening I had between those three actions. I was able to maintain it for about 3/4 of the fight I'd say before the mana usage overtook what the SR timer was able to produce. That was with JoW up as well.
#5326SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Sinmul View Post
If your guild can down Kael with some regularity that you're considering the [Rod of the Sun King] why not let that item go to Rogues/Warriors and you get [Rising Tide] or [Syphon of the Nathrezim] both of which drop of cake bosses in BT. If the Rod is going to be sharded, then sure, it's a DPS increase over your Pummeler. If I were you, I'd just wait for Rising Tide or the Nathrezim ... both of which has dropped for my guilds Shaman in the last couple nights.

-sin
And my friends guild has 3 rogues with full Warglaive sets, and others with none.. you might never see a Syphon or RT in your life it's all about the drop rates!
#5327SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by anvilkicker View Post
I am trying to get a handle on the Enh Shammy and am loving it so far. I think what would help me now is some sort of unbuffed stat goals. As all the best AEP gear seems to be Agil from Rogue/Hunter gear pools. I.E. I need more help trying to see where to draw the line for like str/AP vs Agil AEP.
The problem with stat goals is there is no line to draw. If the EP for your gear indicates that STR is worth 2 EP, and AGI 1.7, then that is all you need to evaluate two pieces of gear. Replacing a theoretical green of 20 STR (40 EP) with one with 24 AGI (40.8 EP) would be, over time, an upgrade, even if it dropped you below some imaginary line.

Weapons play a very important a role in your overall DPS. For a while I had guildies with lower AP and crit who put out comparable dps due to better weapons. Good news here is you can be dual wielding 91.1 weapons after a couple hours of AV (no matter how bad you are).

A good metric might be your unbuffed DPS while farming level 70+ non-elite mobs (say, the demons in Blade's Edge). I think I was about 350dps while farming when I first went to Karazhan. For a 16-dps raid to bring down Gruul in 8 minutes with no deaths will take an average of 442 dps per person.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/30/07 at 6:25 PM. Reason: Fixed the direction on the math
#5328SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by anvilkicker View Post
Hello all,

I am trying to get a handle on the Enh Shammy and am loving it so far. I think what would help me now is some sort of unbuffed stat goals. As all the best AEP gear seems to be Agil from Rogue/Hunter gear pools. I.E. I need more help trying to see where to draw the line for like str/AP vs Agil AEP.

Something like:

Unbuffed Kara ready:
AP 1200
Crit 25%

Unbuffed SSC/TK ready:
AT 1700
Crit 27%
Hit Rating 120

Any help is much appreciated guys!
You wont hit 1700 AP/27% crit at entry level SSC/TK... The best way to balance your stats is aim to get your crit upto like 30% (at this point you should easily have 1400+ AP) and then get gear that increases your AP but doesn't decrease your crit, altho you didnt say what you currently raid.
#5329SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
A good metric might be your unbuffed DPS while farming level 70+ non-elite mobs (say, the demons in Blade's Edge). I think I was about 350dps while farming when I first went to Karazhan. For a 16-dps raid to bring down Gruul in 8 minutes with no deaths will take an average of 442 dps per person.
Is that auto attack dps with 1 wep? To kill gruul you need ALOT more than 442 dps per person.
#5330SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kombinat
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Is that auto attack dps with 1 wep? To kill gruul you need ALOT more than 442 dps per person.
Gruul has 3.415 million hp.

Divide by 16, gives 213,473.5

8 minutes is 480 seconds, so divide by 480 to give 444.6 dps.

If you'd like to retract your comment, feel free to do so.
#5331SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
I want to see you do full dps to gruul 100% time. Furtheron 8 minutes is 16 growths -- if your dps is that bad i doubt tanks can survive that long.
#5332SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0anvilkicker
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
The problem with stat goals is there is no line to draw. If the EP for your gear indicates that STR is worth 2 EP, and AGI 1.7, then that is all you need to evaluate two pieces of gear. Replacing a theoretical green of 20 STR (40 EP) with one with 24 AGI (40.8 EP) ...

...
A good metric might be your unbuffed DPS while farming level 70+ non-elite mobs (say, the demons in Blade's Edge). I think I was about 350dps while farming when I first went to Karazhan. For a 16-dps raid to bring down Gruul in 8 minutes with no deaths will take an average of 442 dps per person.


DPS, AEP, AP/STR/Crit all good, just some valid standard is what I'm after! THanks for some metrics to use!

My guild is currently doing Kara, ZA, Gruul, and Lurker.

eh, i need to get recount or something better at monitoring Damage Done and DPS!

Thanks again!
#5333SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mox
Originally Posted by Kombinat View Post
Gruul has 3.415 million hp.

Divide by 16, gives 213,473.5

8 minutes is 480 seconds, so divide by 480 to give 444.6 dps.

If you'd like to retract your comment, feel free to do so.
I'd like to see anyone who actually does 444.6 dps at lvl 70, I was doing more than that at lvl 60.

Furthermore, as pointed out, 8 minutes is stupidly long time to kill gruul and will almost certainly result in tank death(s). Most guilds will kill gruul in 8-10 growths, therefor aiming to do a minimum dps of "444.6" is the most retarded way ever to kill a boss and shouldn't be posted as it's not helpful at all.

Last edited by Mox : 12/01/07 at 7:54 AM.
#5334SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vorda
8-10 growths
We'r going way offtopic here, but back when we killed gruul, we considered 15 growths to be pretty damn good for a first kill. (this was before everyone and their alts had arena weapons, kara items were buffed etc)
#5335SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mox
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
We'r going way offtopic here, but back when we killed gruul, we considered 15 growths to be pretty damn good for a first kill. (this was before everyone and their alts had arena weapons, kara items were buffed etc)
Yes, I agree. Back when I first killed him we took around 15 growths, but this was months and months ago before he had been nerfed. I was purely stating that no one should walk into a fight with the idea of doing the minimum dps required, everyone should be doing 100% dps which is alot more than 444.6.

Last edited by Mox : 12/01/07 at 8:11 AM.
#5336SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Hey how about we stop talking about Gruul eh?
#5337SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Hey how about we stop talking about Gruul eh?
But hes so squishy and cute, Malan :P
#5338SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Foxx2405
I have a question here...

A few days ago my guild was clearing some bosses in SSC and usually im in a kinda default group of a fury warrior (DW), 1-2 combat sword rogues and 1-2 bm hunters...

In such cases i just use windfury totem, no big deal there....

This time though the group setup was different....

We had 1 fury warrior, 1 feral druid, 2 BM hunters and me as enh shaman

Now im logically following the advise this site gives, because it thrives on some excelent theorycrafting, which im not unfamiliair with...
So in first case i was putting down the windfury totem for the warrior...

However the feral druid, who also has a shaman alt, and knows a lot of the theorycrafting was kinda supprised that GoA in such a situation wasnt better...

Basically only the warrior benefitted from WF totem...
Whereas GoA totem was beneficial for: The warrior (crit), me (crit), the feral druid (crit + ap) and the BM hunters (crit + AP) and in a certain way the hunters pets too...
So we have 5 people + 2 pets benefitting from GoA and only 1 from windfury... you could say 6 times as much

I thought he had a solid point... i know WF totem adds a lot of dps for the warrior, but is it so much that it benefits "6 times as much" as GoA does ?

I run into more of these situations where i think that the choice between the 2 is hard...
1-2 BM hunters nearly always run with the raids and benefit from my totems, and sometimes we have a combat dagger rogue so you get groups like:

Fury warrior
Enh Shaman
Dagger rogue
BM hunter
BM hunter

------

I was just wondering what people's look on this is... is the "Warrior means WF totem" rule a must for all situation or are these "extremes" an exception ?
#5339SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Foxx2405 View Post
Fury warrior
Enh Shaman
Dagger rogue
BM hunter
BM hunter

------

I was just wondering what people's look on this is... is the "Warrior means WF totem" rule a must for all situation or are these "extremes" an exception ?
I think this is more a problem with your group setup. If you have 2 BM hunters, you're best building a Shadow priest/resto shaman/feral druid/2xhunter group and then building a warrior/rogue group around your enhance shaman. We're not seeing what other members you're bringing in order to build a group or 2 that maximizes the benefit of windfury.
#5340SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
I´m not totally sure about this, but does the BM Buff really stack? I mean, why don´t you just split the BM Hunters and give your Caster DPS another nice Dmg boost. This would definitely increase your DPS further besides the discussion about which Totem to put down.

And on this topic
First of all why don´t you use both?
So if you are not fond of Twisting, or you can´t / don´t like to do it, whatever reason ...
I would in your No. 1 scenario in which anyone but the Warrior would benefit from GoA more then from WF use GoA.
In scenario 2 considering the Rogue ... I´m not sure.

Anyway, get your BM Hunters on different teams and go get some decent melee dps so you don´t come into really strange Situations like that ^
#5341SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patonus
Has anyone done the math in regards to Stonebreaker Totem and its cooldown?

Is it better to spam shocks every 6 sec cooldown or is it better dps to wait for the 10 sec cooldown to occur to refresh the Elemental Strength?

What I've done lately is spam shocks until I get the proc. Then, I wait the 10 secs before I shock again so I don't have to wait 12 secs instead. Or is this a common sense question and shocking every cooldown is better?
#5342SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Uptime is lower then might expected. Around 35% on average, resulting in ~ 35 EP.

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

10s internal CD.

And last but not least, from the Post #1 in this thread:
"Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds. Note that Stonebreaker has a 10 second hidden cooldown."

Did you relly read through it?
#5343SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Rhagok View Post
I´m not totally sure about this, but does the BM Buff really stack?
Yes, it stacks.
Originally Posted by Foxx2405
I was just wondering what people's look on this is... is the "Warrior means WF totem" rule a must for all situation or are these "extremes" an exception ?
You're looking at an extreme which is an exception, yes. In this case, assuming you are constrained to not twisting, you should drop GoA. But swap one of those hunters for a rogue and I'd have said to drop WF. Rhetorical question: were there no rogues on your raid, or was your group setup just really bad?
Originally Posted by Myul
Did you relly read through it?
I'll turn this back around at you and ask if you really read through the post you're responding to. You didn't link him anything that addresses his actual question.
Originally Posted by Patonus
Is it better to spam shocks every 6 sec cooldown or is it better dps to wait for the 10 sec cooldown to occur to refresh the Elemental Strength?

What I've done lately is spam shocks until I get the proc. Then, I wait the 10 secs before I shock again so I don't have to wait 12 secs instead. Or is this a common sense question and shocking every cooldown is better?
IMO, this doesn't lend itself that well to a mathematical calculation; it would be better to play-test both scenarios. Nevertheless, here's a shot at it.

If you assume 35% uptime on the buff, you have a 35% chance of waiting 10 seconds instead of 6 seconds to shock. Let's use 1/3 uptime to make our math really easy: instead of shocking 3 times in 3*6 = 18 seconds, you shock 3 times in 2*6+10 = 22 seconds. So your shock DPS drops proportionately, to 18/22 of the original DPS, or 82%.

The benefit you gain is that you take your uptime from that 35% number to ~50%. Instead of 38.5 EP, it's worth 55 EP. A ballpark number might say that you can get about 1 DPS from 4 AP, so that 16.5 EP difference is worth 4 DPS. Then if 18% of your shock DPS was more than 4 DPS, you did worse by waiting; i.e. if your shock DPS was greater than 22.2, you did worse by waiting. I can be wrong on the 4 AP->1 DPS conversion by a factor of 4 (and I don't find it at all likely that 1 AP will give you 1 DPS) and your shock DPS would still only have to be a bit under 100.

That makes it pretty clear to me that if mana's no concern, don't wait for the Stonebreaker Totem cooldown to run out -- just shock when your shock cooldown is up.

Last edited by Rob : 12/01/07 at 8:20 PM.
#5344SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xoya
What about in a situation where you are totem twisting, so you generally only shock once every 10 seconds, right on cooldown? Generally the totem buff has not fallen off at that point.
#5345SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patonus
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Uptime is lower then might expected. Around 35% on average, resulting in ~ 35 EP.

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

10s internal CD.

And last but not least, from the Post #1 in this thread:
"Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds. Note that Stonebreaker has a 10 second hidden cooldown."

Did you relly read through it?
Speaking of really reading through it, you obviously didn't read what I was asking at all.

Rob on the other hand, understood what I was asking and answered my question. Thanks Rob!
#5346SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patonus
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
What about in a situation where you are totem twisting, so you generally only shock once every 10 seconds, right on cooldown? Generally the totem buff has not fallen off at that point.
I would say yes, just wait for that cooldown.

I have been able to Totem Twist and still spam shocks more often than once every Twist rotation.

WF - GoA - FS - SS - ES and repeat. Eventually the shocks catch up to the twisting cooldown and you either have to twist early or hold the shock till you are finished with the twist.

It's when you do WF - GoA - SS - FS where you can't do another shock or the WF buff will expire due to GCD.
#5347SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xoya
Originally Posted by Patonus View Post
WF - GoA - FS - SS - ES and repeat. Eventually the shocks catch up to the twisting cooldown and you either have to twist early or hold the shock till you are finished with the twist.
Maybe I just need to rework my twisting macros, then. Currently I do SS -> WF -> GOA -> ES, repeat. I've been trying to work flame shock in there, so SS -> FS -> WF -> GOA -> ES, but it can be annoying remembering which one to use. Maybe I should just make a castsequence for FS -> ES. Hmm. Yes, time to go do that!
#5348SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Foxx2405
Originally Posted by Rhagok View Post
I´m not totally sure about this, but does the BM Buff really stack? I mean, why don´t you just split the BM Hunters and give your Caster DPS another nice Dmg boost. This would definitely increase your DPS further besides the discussion about which Totem to put down.

And on this topic
First of all why don´t you use both?
So if you are not fond of Twisting, or you can´t / don´t like to do it, whatever reason ...
I would in your No. 1 scenario in which anyone but the Warrior would benefit from GoA more then from WF use GoA.
In scenario 2 considering the Rogue ... I´m not sure.

Anyway, get your BM Hunters on different teams and go get some decent melee dps so you don´t come into really strange Situations like that ^
Ok...

First of all in this particular situation we didnt have rogues... We could move a hunter to a different group but that means we'd have to switch a mage / warlock back for it... Which seems to me to not be a super solution, and since the buff stacks, it doesnt matter really

We normally have a decent group setup so that its fairly clear, im just talking about these extreme situtions

-----

On totem twisting, yes ive used that for a long time, and at a certain moment it payed off really...

But i found that for one it screws up with shock rotation, and on top there are certain situations where im on special duties, either purging or interrupting where i really cant use the twisting methode, so i have to pick 1 out of the 2 totems...

I guess ill recreate my totem twist macro again for those situations where i dont need to do such thing (i lost all my macros in a pc crash so in the example i was mentioning i didnt have my totem twist macro at hand
#5349SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
cerberos
True or false? Some myths need answers...

Hello all,

First of all gratz to this forum, as its a valuable vault of information World of Warcraft have many myths that users transfer them from realm to realm, so with your help, lets have some final answers

The following is PvE Specced questions

01) Enh Shaman needs slow weapons. Ench Shaman with fast weapons, doesnt know to play at all. (true/false)
02) Enh Shaman best relic is Astral Winds (true/false)
03) Enh Shaman best relic is Stonebreaker's Totem (from Badges) (true/false)
04) Enh Shaman must have at least 200 Hit Rating, so he can produce serious damage (true/false)
05) Enh Shaman must have 150 max hit rating, so he can produce serious damage (true/false)
06) Enh Shaman doesnt need ap gems. He must have instead strength gems equipped (true/false)
07) Enh Shaman doest need much ap. After 1600-1700, is useless (true/false)
08) Enh Shaman doesnt need much Critical Rating. After 24-25% is useless (true/false)
09) Enh Shaman must play always with Strength Totem, Agility if he have Drood on the party else Wf for the rogues / tanks. (true/false)
10) Enh Shaman must enchant on weapon is +20Strength. Mongoose is useless for him (true/false)
11) Enh Shaman must enchants are Executioner + Mongoose (true/false)
12) Enh Shaman to be best equipped, must have equipment from other classes, like rogues for example. With only mail, Enh shaman cant do serious damage (true/false)

Those were the biggest myths (?) i have heared till now Maybe some of them are true, some are false Just True / False, from someone who knows what he does

Sorry that all are for Enh shaman, i dont have knowledge for other specs

Last edited by cerberos : 12/02/07 at 5:16 PM.
#5350SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
1) True for the first part, not necessarily true for the second part.
2) False
3) True
4) False
5) False
6) True
7) False
8) False
9) False
10) False
11) True
12) True for the first part, false for the second part.
#5401SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Ecomix View Post
In the OP it states that the Syphon, Dragonstrike, and Rising Tide are all fairly close to each other in terms of DPS.

My question is, what is the most desired/perfect combination? I have Dragonstrike currently and will get the Syphon/Tide whenever they drop, but I don't want to take something I won't use.

So basically

DragonStrike/Syphon
DragonStrike/Rising Tide
Rising Tide/Syphon (Vice Versa)
Syphon/Syphon

What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?

EDIT- The proc from Dragonstrike is the only haste item I have currently and picking up a DST is not an option as my guild no longer runs Gruuls lair at all. Is the haste proc worth keeping it this late into the raiding game?
In the top right hand corner this a function called "Search this thread". This topic has been discussed a billion times and is easily searched. The best combination is a pair of s3 weapons, which I will go on a limb and say here in 2-3 weeks anyone that doesn't put crayons up their nose should be able to attain. My first week as elemental with s1 gear and a few team mates in similar situations were able to hit 1850 with a few nights of work.
#5402SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by Ecomix View Post
In the OP it states that the Syphon, Dragonstrike, and Rising Tide are all fairly close to each other in terms of DPS.

My question is, what is the most desired/perfect combination? I have Dragonstrike currently and will get the Syphon/Tide whenever they drop, but I don't want to take something I won't use.

So basically

DragonStrike/Syphon
DragonStrike/Rising Tide
Rising Tide/Syphon (Vice Versa)
Syphon/Syphon

What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?

EDIT- The proc from Dragonstrike is the only haste item I have currently and picking up a DST is not an option as my guild no longer runs Gruuls lair at all. Is the haste proc worth keeping it this late into the raiding game?
using 3.70 ep for the off hand (which is not accurate for Syphon)

Syphon has 370.74 ep
and
Rising Tide has 370.74 + 73.4 ep

Now the Syphon ep for off hand should actually be greater than 3.7
To be better than Rising Tide it would have to be 4.43 ep about a 20% increase.

Now I don't know what the ep is for a 2.8 speed off hand, but I would assume that it is less than 20% off of a 2.6 speed
#5403SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ecomix
Originally Posted by rava View Post
In the top right hand corner this a function called "Search this thread". This topic has been discussed a billion times and is easily searched. The best combination is a pair of s3 weapons, which I will go on a limb and say here in 2-3 weeks anyone that doesn't put crayons up their nose should be able to attain. My first week as elemental with s1 gear and a few team mates in similar situations were able to hit 1850 with a few nights of work.
Ugh, it's retarded that PVP weapons end up being the best weapons for PVE. Oh well...

I tried the search thing twice and couldn't find what I was looking for, probably just search-dumb.
#5404SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0urotas
Originally Posted by Foxx2405 View Post
Ok...

First of all in this particular situation we didnt have rogues... We could move a hunter to a different group but that means we'd have to switch a mage / warlock back for it... Which seems to me to not be a super solution, and since the buff stacks, it doesnt matter really

We normally have a decent group setup so that its fairly clear, im just talking about these extreme situtions
I'd like to ask a few more things about the windfury vs grace of air in extreme group setups

In the example, we had a shaman, druid, warrior, BM hunter, BM hunter group and the question was whether it would be more beneficial to use grace of air or windfury. This was an odd raid setup with no rogues, and personally I'd rather put a hunter in a melee group, than a mage/warlock who'd be losing wrath of air and a shadow priest. Would I be correct to assume, that the old "if there's a warrior in the group, drop windfury" would be more accurate as "Drop windfury, if there's a warrior in the group and at least one other benefiting from it"? Or would windfury still generate more dps for the whole group in this situation too? I'm also interested in knowing what would be the correct totem to use for maximum raid dps in some of the more borderline situations. For example:

Shaman, sword rogue, sword rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter
Shaman, sword rogue, dagger rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter
Shaman, retri-paladin, rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter

Could anyone point me to any threads with some more detailed theorycrafting on the benefits of windfury and grace of air to different classes? I know grace of air adds 121 attack power and 4% crit to me as a feral druid, which according to the ToskksDPSGearMethod calculator would increase my theoretical dps by a bit over 50. However, I don't know how accurate this is, and I have nothing to compare it with.

A rogue or a hunter would gain 107 attack power and something like 2.4% critical chance from an enhancement shamans grace of air if I calculated it correctly. How big of a damage increase would this be compared to windfury on a rogue/warrior for example? I would appreciate if you could point me to the correct information source.
#5405SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Rob
Without a doubt, drop Windfury if 2*Warriors + 2*Ret Paladins + Rogues > Feral Druids + Hunters.
Without a doubt, drop GoA if Feral Druids + Hunters > 2*Warriors + 2*Ret Paladins + Rogues.

This leaves the theoretical borderline case where the sides of the equation are equivalent: e.g. {rogue, rogue, hunter, hunter, enhancement shaman} or even the {warrior, feral, hunter, enhancement shaman, caster/healer} that might occur in a 10 man group. Either way, there frankly is no 100% definitive answer for this situation: it will depend on how well-geared and well-played the various classes are; and if the Warrior in your group is tanking, whether or not he would benefit more from threat/rage generation or avoidance.

Last edited by Rob : 12/04/07 at 5:56 AM.
#5406SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Vulajin's math on WF vs GoA + Instant Poison for a combat sword rogue: Windfury Totem Change

His math shows about 60 DPS from GoA + IP, 80 from WF.

for me, I got about 35 DPS out of GoA last time I checked. That was in T5 gear but I think Vulajin's calculations are for an approximately T5-geared rogue.

A druid friend of mine ran the numbers through some druid spreadsheet or other and got 45 DPS in T5-ish gear for GoA.

I'd expect a T5 ret paladin to gain 150-200 DPS from WF. Not only does it straight-up give them 20% more white swings, but as I recall the extra swings give them 20% more judgement procs. I'd assume they'd gain about the same as enh shamans from GoA.

I've never seen real data on hunters, mut rogues, or warriors.

The problem is warriors. A warrior's DPS gain from WF is going to be hard to calculate because of rage generation, and I've never seen any reliable math on it. If I remember right though, GoA clocks in at under 30 DPS for a T5-geared warrior.
#5407SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Jerem
Using Cheeky's excellent spreadsheet, on a 7700 AC level 73 Boss (I selected Morogrim, because this is usually the fight for which my WWS parses are the closest to my spreadsheet-simulated DPS) :

With standard raid (damage) buffs (BoK, imp. BoM, LotP, GotW, Scroll of AGI, AGI food, flask of relentless assault) for me, and for my cat pet (obviously, same buffs, minus the flask, and agi food replaced by STR food), my simulated DPS is :
Hunter : 1043.23
Pet : 475.8
= 1519.03
[my stats, with this setup, are 2307 AP, 34.63% crit, 100% hit]

If I add an improved GoA Totem and an improved SoE totem (benefits the pet's PA), the simulated DPS becomes :
Hunter : 1088.07
Pet : 541.04
= 1629.11
[my stats then are 2404 AP, 37.05% crit, 100% hit]

This is with a never-wearing-off hunter's mark, 5 Sunders and a Faerie Fire on the boss (I didn't factor in CoR).

The 1500 DPS number might be a little "over the top". I think the best I ever did on Morogrim (that means never being bubbled, and being extra lucky on crits, etc) was around 1200 (I probably forgot some obvious stuff in the spreadsheet's settings, but can't seem to find what).
I have a T5 (or equivalent) gear, and I'm BM-specced (41/20/00). I use a standard auto-steady rotation, and replace Steady Shot by Arcane- or Multi-shot whenever they're up (I consider mana a non-issue : our Paladins maintain JoW, and I use mana pots every cooldowns). I use trinkets, Bestial Wrath and Rapid Fire whenever they are up, as well as drums (Battle/War).

To fully evaluate the benefits of GoA for a BM hunter, you would have to consider that more AGI for the pet means more
crits, hence more FI uptime (I think my FI uptime is about 96 or 97% currently). That contributes to the added value of GoA for the group's DPS.

Hope it helps ...

Last edited by Jerem : 12/04/07 at 8:49 AM.
#5408SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Malan
[e] Wow I somehow missed all the posts between this and the one I replied to, this was at the guy asking about all the weapon combos.

I think you missed the other part of the OP where it says that RisingTide/Syphon is almost exactly identical to Syphon/RisingTide, and same for any other weapon combo. Its really not a big deal which hand you put which T6 weapon in.

Last edited by Malan : 12/04/07 at 1:27 PM.
#5409SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Goldthorn
Originally Posted by Ecomix View Post

DragonStrike/Syphon
DragonStrike/Rising Tide
Rising Tide/Syphon (Vice Versa)
Syphon/Syphon

What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?
I am currently using DragonStrike/Rising Tide for my raiding needs (that is until I get Syphon, maybe this week!). I also toyed with Rising Tide/Netherbane for awhile, just for the stats boost, but the haste proc seems to be more worth it.

That being said, as soon as I get Syphon, it seems 375 Blacksmithing was a waste of time and money! Maybe Blizz will add some new BS plans in the future that become worth holding on to BS. Here's hoping.

Last edited by Goldthorn : 12/06/07 at 10:30 AM.
#5410SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Teran
Originally Posted by Goldthorn View Post
I am currently using DragonStrike/Rising Tide for my raiding needs (that is until I get Syphon, maybe this week!). I also toyed with Rising Tide/Netherbane for awhile, just for the stats boost, but the haste proc seems to be more worth it.

That being said, as soon as I get Syphon, it seems 375 Blacksmithing was a waste of time and money lol! Maybe Blizz will add some new BS plans in the future that become worth holding on to BS. Here's hoping.
I invested into blacksmithing on that hope. Blizzard acted in such a way that I believed they would treat blacksmithing similarly to the arena, heroic badge, and honor point systems in that they would receive occasional updates. Now that items have caught up to the highest tier blacksmithing recipes we'll have to see if they add in upgraded options in the next content patch, perhaps something in the sunwell can unlock the fourth incarnation of our lovely hammer.
#5411SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Varag
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Question - what value are people using for Meta Gem sockets in Pawn? I need a better way to compare a helm with RED to a helm with 3 normal sockets. My current Pawn string just gives meta gems like 50 EP or so but it results in some odd values.
To determine my weighting for the meta socket, I always assume that I'm going to socket a RED, and then take the value of my Yo! simulated APEP for agility adding 20 for the increased crit effect, which is what I believe the rogues chose as a value on another thread on these forums.

Last edited by Varag : 12/04/07 at 2:30 PM.
#5412SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
http://elitistjerks.com/566730-post300.html
Ok so, that guy didn't exactly have the largest data set available but... 75% uptime for dual executioner? Might be something to look at. We'd need a longer test done with an actual shaman though.
#5413SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Aeolian
Originally Posted by Teran View Post
I invested into blacksmithing on that hope. Blizzard acted in such a way that I believed they would treat blacksmithing similarly to the arena, heroic badge, and honor point systems in that they would receive occasional updates. Now that items have caught up to the highest tier blacksmithing recipes we'll have to see if they add in upgraded options in the next content patch, perhaps something in the sunwell can unlock the fourth incarnation of our lovely hammer.
I would have to find it again, but I believe there was a post about the Tier 4 blacksmithing plans being available from The Sunwell. Don't take this for gospel truth, but it seems somewhat likely as the weapons available to us in Black Temple and through Season 3 make the money and time invested in our Blacksmith creations worthless. If I can find the post again I will link it.
#5414SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Like I've said, I repeatedly get 40%+ uptime with a single executioner enchant. 75% doesn't seem unreasonable at all with two of them.
#5415SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
@ Tornhoof:

I downloaded the latest version of your simulator today, and I also managed to get my hands on the Berzerkers Call from ZA. I was using DST and TT, but now I'm using DST and BC. According to the main article, BC is worth about 10 more EP than TT. However, with BC and DST equipped, your simulator is showing me LOSING 20 DPS. Is there an error with your calculation, or is the loss of hit and crit really affecting me that much? (I only have 13.75% hit, 1600 ap and 28% crit now). Just thought I'd check.

Also, is your simulator taking into account armor penetration? I'm up to 420 passive + executioner enchant now.
#5416SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Aeolian
Try using Yo!'s simulator.

And I believe it was 310 static armor penetration for executioner, something like that anyways, it was posted a few pages back.
#5417SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
#5418SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Difforgazm
Sorry if this is already known but a new site is working on building an Enhancement item database type thing.

MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News

just thought id point this out, as it seems like a fairly easy to use good site.
#5419SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
No Flurry bug fix in 2.3.2:
Originally Posted by Blue Poster in Warrior boards
* The off-hand Whirlwind attack does not proc flurry when it crits.
* If you have one charge of flurry remaining and crit with that attack, flurry does not proc/refresh
Both bugs will be fixed in a patch after 2.3.2
#5420SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
I added a small section at the bottom of the post for raid leaders. Just some basic info on how to examine WWS and the Armory to decide if an Enhance shaman is up to snuff.
#5421SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
I did some math on it and found it to be worth ~313 armor penetration, assuming 36% uptime on the buff. I'll link the spreadsheet if I can find it later.
#5422SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Original data on value of Str/AP vs. Agi/CR?

I have carefully read the entire OP, and the first 20 pages following. I do not think there are enough hours left in my life to read the entire thread. However, what I'm wondering seems to have been assumed (or demonstrated) before the first post. If anyone can point me to a good discussion of this I'd appreciate it.

My question is about the initial assumption that Str = 2EP, while Agi is = 1.8EP (give or take, and ignoring Kings). Here's a first cut at comparing the two.

Assume I do N% non-crit and C% crit hits. My total dps would be on average D * (N+2C), for some D (right?). WF, flurry, UR, and item procs will mean that D has multiple possible values during a fight, but overall it should average out to some number that is the same for crits and noncrits. (Maybe not entirely, due to +AP procs on crits, but I think it's very close anyway.) Since additional crits mean fewer noncrits, increasing crit chance by 1% (25 Agi) should increase your total dps by D (it goes up to D * ((N-1) + 2(C+1)) = D * (N+2C+1)).

The averaged "D" will be something close to your weapon dps plus your fully buffed AP, multiplied by the effect of flurry (say an avg. 25% for my toon, a little more or less depending on your crit rating, and see my closing caveat), multiplied by the effect of WF (an additional 36% less any inefficiencies in weapon speeds (?), plus an extra 475AP which I'll again leave out to simplify things), multiplied by (nearly) 10% for UR. I'm leaving out mongoose and other procs for now, and ignoring fights where you can't do constant damage, both because I think they have no impact, and because I want to keep this simple.

Let's also ignore the OH weapon entirely, since both AP and crits will be subject to the 50% reduction, and therefore it's immaterial to the analysis. Similarly, I'll ignore stormstrike. So if M = my main hand DPS, then for my toon this is my simplified non-crit dps:
D = (M + AP/14) * 1.25 * 1.36 * 1.10 = (M + AP/14) * 1.87

Now, recall that my overall DPS is D * (N+2C). This means that increasing my Agi by 25 (crit rate +1%) should directly increase my DPS by D. On the other hand, if I increase my Str by 25, the increase is:
(M + (AP + (2*Str))/14) * 1.87
------------------------------                     which reduces to
      (M + AP/14) * 1.87
14M + AP + 50
-------------
  14M + AP
With (for example) 90dps and 1500AP, the change is (1260+1500+50)/(1260+1500) = 2810/2760... which is a 1.8% benefit, and totally shocking to me... I thought the benefit would be much smaller when I started typing this. Probably my original mistake was not realizing that the various multipliers (adding up to *1.87) produced equal benefits to +crit and +AP. High M versus AP will reduce the relative benefit of Str, but now it looks like that would have to be unreasonably large to tip the balance in favor of crit.

Of course I've left out a lot of things... flurry uptime, UR uptime, add'l on-crit procs (if you have them), plus other things I've probably forgotten. These bring the equation closer to parity for Agi - but by how much? I have to believe someone else has already modeled this... which brings me back to my original question, can someone please tell me where the relative value of +Agi/CR versus +Str/AP was originally modeled correctly?

Sorry for the long-winded post, it wound up producing unexpected results due to poorly-thought-out original assumptions. :-(

-W
#5423SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Wundorn View Post
can someone please tell me where the relative value of +Agi/CR versus +Str/AP was originally modeled correctly?
Strength is worth 2.2 because 1 Strength = 2 AP = 2.2 AP with Kings. 1 point of Agility was valued using simulation to determine the change in DPS from steps in agility vs the same steps in attack power.
#5424SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Malan -- great info. I don't get the bit about "flasks vs elixirs" being a reason for big differences in damage; Relentless Assault has only 10 EP more than Major Agility but on my server costs ten times more. Any non-progression raid where I intend to wipe fewer than 10 times, I use Major Agi.

In my experience, dps time is also a big determining factor in damage fluctuation, possibly equaling group makeup. Shamans who are talented runners, knowing exactly how far to run to escape some effect and when to run back, are going to put out more damage simply because they put in more time.

I'd probably throw something up there about weapon speed (since I still see a lot of unenlightened shamans running around with epic daggers, and yes I was once one), and probably a blurb about off-specs as well (Elemental having slightly higher personal DPS and Resto making for better versatility).

Question about DPS time: on fights with a lot of running, I generally hit Flame Shock as soon as I'm in range, then jam Stormstrike when I get close enough for that. This obviously increases my overall damage (since the shock cooldown is usually ready to go shortly after engaging the mob). But does it decrease the DPS stat? If I were "auditioning," would I be better off saving that first shock until after I had entered melee range?
#5425SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Right but a Major Strength and a Flask have a 50 EP difference. I was mostly just showing how it all adds up. Just because Shaman A has a T4 helm, and Shaman B has a helm from a T4 instance does not make them "almost equal", the difference in AP/Crit/Hit adds up over all those gear differences and really makes an impact.

DPS time - I think either way you're going to have 95-99% dps time anyways, not that big of a deal. DPS time really is just something to check out when a guy has 1200 DPS but only like 5% activity time. Its for your bullshit meter to start sounding alarms.
#5426SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Right but a Major Strength and a Flask have a 50 EP difference. I was mostly just showing how it all adds up. Just because Shaman A has a T4 helm, and Shaman B has a helm from a T4 instance does not make them "almost equal", the difference in AP/Crit/Hit adds up over all those gear differences and really makes an impact.

DPS time - I think either way you're going to have 95-99% dps time anyways, not that big of a deal. DPS time really is just something to check out when a guy has 1200 DPS but only like 5% activity time. Its for your bullshit meter to start sounding alarms.
#5427SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Ok so, that guy didn't exactly have the largest data set available but... 75% uptime for dual executioner? Might be something to look at. We'd need a longer test done with an actual shaman though.
Well, he also got 50% uptime for single Executioner in conditions where he couldn't miss or be dodged. If we can correlate this with our observed Executioner uptime of 36% on endgame content, doesn't this imply a dual Executioner uptime of around 54%?

PS: No, this doesn't significantly increase the EP for hit rating. I just ran a sim on my gear with NO procs:HR was worth 1.57, then a sim with Dragonstrike, dual Mongoose, Dragonspine and Hourglass: HR was worth 1.58.
#5428SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Dragonspine have 15s cd, hourglass proc on crits and have 45s cd.

If single executioner have 36% uptime dual executioner should have 1 - ((1 - 0.36) * (1 - 0.36)) = 1 - (.64^2) =
0.5904 = 59% uptime.
#5429SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Toots Hepcat
Pb -- it was my goal to research whether having a lot of procs available would change the value of hit rating in a dramatic way, and it looks like it doesn't. (Plus Mongoose is the more valuable of the four procs I tested and certainly doesn't have a cooldown).

Thanks for the math on double exec.; I have trouble setting up statistics problems. I'd ask my wife, but then I'd have to tell her what it was for.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/05/07 at 4:34 PM.
#5430SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Lujaar
On the dual mongoose vs mongoose/exe issue:

Mongoose: 120 agi, 2% haste (~31 haste rating). I get about a 1.75 AEP value for both agi and haste. 151 *1.75 = 264 AEP

Executioner: 840 armor penetration, which has about a .3 AEP value for me. 840 *0.3 = 252 AEP


Both buffs last 15 seconds, and it looks like both enchants have the same proc rate. My stat weights are fairly typical and I'm getting that a mongoose proc has a higher AEP value than an executioner proc.

It looks to me like dual mongoose beats out mongoose/exe. Am I missing something?

Last edited by Lujaar : 12/05/07 at 7:23 PM.
#5431SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Lujaar View Post
On the dual mongoose vs mongoose/exe issue:

Mongoose: 120 agi, 2% haste (~31 haste rating). I get about a 1.75 AEP value for both agi and haste. 151 *1.75 = 264 AEP

Executioner: 840 armor penetration, which has about a .3 AEP value for me. 840 *0.3 = 252 AEP


Both buffs last 15 seconds, and it looks like both enchants have the same proc rate. My stat weights are fairly typical and I'm getting that a mongoose proc has a higher AEP value than an executioner proc.

It looks to me like dual mongoose beats out mongoose/exe. Am I missing something?
With my EP values both are on par, but in the end mongoose always wins, because of the much higher use outside of raids.
#5432SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
321 was the amount I solved for given a 37% uptime
318 given a 36% (as those were the two most likely candidates at the time)

If you take the dps increase provided by the Executioner proc and multiply it by the uptime, and then attempt to find a value that gives the same increase with 100% uptime you will likely produce the same results (depending on the boss initial armor, I assumed full sunders and FF)

Interestingly enough, at 25% uptime, it was closer to 200 than 240
#5433SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mengus
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg View Post
With my EP values both are on par, but in the end mongoose always wins, because of the much higher use outside of raids.
I'd argue if you PvP a LOT, EXE > Mongoose (;
#5434SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patonus
BTW I made an All-in-one spam macro after talking about Twist rotations.

/castsequence reset=8/combat Windfury Totem, Flame Shock(Rank 7), Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, Earth Shock(Rank 8)

What you will see happening is you'll go through the sequence and when you get to Earth Shock, you have to wait from the Flame Shock cooldown, then you Earth Shock and as you do that WF buff is about to fade and you refresh WF.

Second time you go through the sequence, you then have to wait for Flame Shock to come back up and by that time the WF totem will refresh allowing a fresh 9 seconds and then you go into Grace of Air.

It works out perfectly. Only difference is you lose 4 seconds of non Grace of Air-ness heh.
#5435SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Patonus View Post
BTW I made an All-in-one spam macro after talking about Twist rotations.

/castsequence reset=8/combat Windfury Totem, Flame Shock(Rank 7), Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, Earth Shock(Rank 8)

What you will see happening is you'll go through the sequence and when you get to Earth Shock, you have to wait from the Flame Shock cooldown, then you Earth Shock and as you do that WF buff is about to fade and you refresh WF.

Second time you go through the sequence, you then have to wait for Flame Shock to come back up and by that time the WF totem will refresh allowing a fresh 9 seconds and then you go into Grace of Air.

It works out perfectly. Only difference is you lose 4 seconds of non Grace of Air-ness heh.
Losing that much uptime on goa is nowhere near worth it.
#5436SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0beetlejuice
About Executioner and Mongoose VS 2x Mongoose

1. PvE
I won't give you numbers or links to data but i had an increase in my dps in 25man raids since the moment i replaced one mongoose enchant with an executioner enchant. My raid rogues need to be focused 100% to be over my total dps and boss dps and sometimes they dont make it. Critical chance is a very strange thing. 2xMongooses will help a lot an entry raid enhancement shaman, boosting his crit chance from say 25% to even 35% occasionaly. However, at higher gear, an increase in critical strike chance from 35% to 45% wont give extremely different dps. I believe that if you are about 30% crit chance unbuffed you can dump one mongoose and get executioner enchant. Mongoose is overrated and in many raids my avg critical chance wasn;t much higher than my passive critical chance.

2. PvP
We all have seen how Enhancement shaman performs in Arenas. Either he kills fast or crowd control kills him, especialy in 5v5 teams. I believe that 2x mongooses versus mongoose+Executioner won't have a difference in critical strikes in PvP situations, as the total time of a fight is extremely low, not to mention the "diminishing returns" of critical strike chance due to resilience. On the other hand executioner will give you a chance to do more burst damage on a target, catching enemy healers off guard, especialy with some nice windfury hits.

About Enhancement shaman performance in raid
Some additions.

Things that you can't see easily about an enhancement shaman in raids.

1. How often he drops special totems due to special situations like poison, fear, fire/frost damage, direct spell damage.
2. If he re-put his totems in relatively new locations fast enough so that his group won't have a chance to lose any totem buff due to long range.

Things you can see
1. How many times he interrupted enemy spellcasting.
2. If he used Bloodlust wisely considering his group and not his selfish dps thirst. Was the whole group ready to nuke? Was there enough time to fit Bloodlust in between special phases in bosses where you can;t focus on dps? etc.
3. Are his enhancement totems (Strength, Grace of Air, Windfury totem) improved with the appropriate enhancement talents?
#5437SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Well if you want to see High end raid shaman dps here's a few parses :

Winterchill

Anethron

Kaz'Rogal

Had one try on Azgalor but due to high latency I had to sit out afterwards (Blaming blasted ISP).

Also after constant testing on the simulator I am still getting that 2xMongoose is superior to Mongoose+Excutioner.

& You can't possibly say that crit won't benefit you after 30%... It goes into diminshing returns but it will always still benefit you.
#5438SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by beetlejuice View Post
About Executioner and Mongoose VS 2x Mongoose

1. PvE
I won't give you numbers or links to data but i had an increase in my dps in 25man raids since the moment i replaced one mongoose enchant with an executioner enchant. My raid rogues need to be focused 100% to be over my total dps and boss dps and sometimes they dont make it. Critical chance is a very strange thing. 2xMongooses will help a lot an entry raid enhancement shaman, boosting his crit chance from say 25% to even 35% occasionaly. However, at higher gear, an increase in critical strike chance from 35% to 45% wont give extremely different dps. I believe that if you are about 30% crit chance unbuffed you can dump one mongoose and get executioner enchant. Mongoose is overrated and in many raids my avg critical chance wasn;t much higher than my passive critical chance.
I would love to see some of the parses where you're giving your rogues a run for their money.

Right now our sword rogues are hitting 1600-1700 dps, and even in max gear my simulations don't get that high. Just the very idea that you could be on par makes me shiver.
#5439SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by beetlejuice View Post
I won't give you numbers or links to data
Exactly what this thread needs -- a nice dose of speculation.
Critical chance is a very strange thing.
Not really. It's a percentage increase to all your physical damage, which as a bonus increases proc uptime.
at higher gear, an increase in critical strike chance from 35% to 45% wont give extremely different dps.
Actually, it'll give the exact same dps increase as going from 25%-35%.

You do 800 dps at 25%. Going to 35% will add 64 dps (800 * 1.35 /1.25 = 864). Going to 45% adds a further 64 dps (864 * 1.45 / 1.35 = 928).

Obviously, 64 DPS is a smaller PERCENTAGE increase, going from 25 to 35 and 35 to 45, but it's the same AMOUNT of increase. Which may be why:
in many raids my avg critical chance wasn;t much higher than my passive critical chance.
Actually, on second glance that makes no sense at all.

You are on the right track about the possible benefits for PvP, especially in arena. But let's get some numbers, huh? How much resilience are people stacking these days? How much crit are we losing? And how much armor are people stacking (Armor Penetration has more value at low armor than high armor)?

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/06/07 at 11:41 AM.
#5440SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
[about what going from 35% to 45% crit chance does]
Not really. It's a percentage increase to all your physical damage, which as a bonus increases proc uptime.

Actually, it'll give the exact same dps increase as going from 25%-35%.
This is wrong. The "bonus" you refer to is very significant and cannot be ignored. Flurry, UR and other crit procs have a dramatic affect on your DPS (and in UR's case, your whole group's). For a reductio ad absurdum proof, going from 0% to 10% not only gives you the straight 10% crit damage boost, but it also means that you will almost always be gaining flurry (straight 30% dps increase, modulo bizarre WF issues) and very often will be gaining UR (10% for you and your party). Obviously, that's going to be the best thing you could possibly do. On the other hand, going from 90% to 100% will almost never increase your flurry or UR uptime, and so your added benefit will be barely more than the straight 10%.

Put another way, when your crit chance is very low (5-10%) the EP of Agi/Crit is going to be WAY HIGHER than it is once you're in epic gear.

For realistic crit chance ranges for raiders, it's not a linear reduction, but the more crit you have, the less *actual* dps more crit will get you, not just the less *percentage*.

Has anyone plotted this dps benefit change from crit chance 0-100% (and therefore, the change in EP)? This is related to my earlier question about how Agi/Crit was valued.
#5441SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Originally Posted by Wundorn View Post
Has anyone plotted this dps benefit change from crit chance 0-100% (and therefore, the change in EP)? This is related to my earlier question about how Agi/Crit was valued.
I remember doing it on my warrior (Melee class with both Flurry & WF factored in as I was an orc back then) pre-tbc & found out I went into diminshing returns as I went past the 33%~36% range.

Will try to find the excel sheet but it might be lost in a format or two .
#5442SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hulkling
Originally Posted by beetlejuice View Post
About Executioner and Mongoose VS 2x Mongoose

1. PvE
I won't give you numbers or links to data but ...

2. PvP
We all have seen how Enhancement shaman performs in Arenas. Either he kills fast or crowd control kills him, especialy in 5v5 teams. I believe that 2x mongooses versus mongoose+Executioner won't have a difference in critical strikes in PvP situations, as the total time of a fight is extremely low, not to mention the "diminishing returns" of critical strike chance due to resilience. On the other hand executioner will give you a chance to do more burst damage on a target, catching enemy healers off guard, especialy with some nice windfury hits.
1. This is a theorycrafting forum. Numbers and links are pretty much required if you're trying to make a new assertion about dps. If you dont have numbers to back up what you're saying, why should any of us believe it? Thats like saying "The more you hit, the more damage you can do" which made sense at the time, but turned out to be false and a factor that would severely limit a shaman's damage by going for hit rating.

2. Versus any group with a healer, if you have seen how enhancement performs in arena, you would know that we migrate from a burst dps class to a long term steady burn. Because of resil, crit chance is extremely overrated in an arena setting, whereas reducing a clothie's armor to next to nothing is extremely valuable. When your crit rate is reduced to about 14% and the damage from that 14% is reduced by 20%, focusing on improving my non-crit attacks has worked out better for me personally. If we look at a drop in critical strike effectiveness due to resil, it would undeniably make up the very small difference in the EP values for both enchants.

Sorry about the PVP tangent, but I felt as it had been brought up, it should be corrected.
#5443SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
For realistic crit chance ranges for raiders, it's not a linear reduction, but the more crit you have, the less *actual* dps more crit will get you, not just the less *percentage*.
I thought I could ignore it in the interest of showing crit rating was pretty useful at any crite percentage, but I ran a quick test -- twelve runs of yo's sim testing only autoattack, windfury & ss(default values except: 24% hit to remove misses from the test, 0% haste rating, no LotP, no RED, no shocks or procs), altering only crit in 5% intervals from 0-60%:

Crit DPS  %Flrried Delta DPS Delta %Flry Crit EP Armor Pen EP
---- ---  -------- --------- ----------- ------  ------------
0    543  0        -         -
5    584  13       41        13          3.74    .27
10   646  32       62        19
15   703  47       57        15          2.75    .26
20   755  59       52        12
25   806  68	   51        9           2.21    .26
30   854  75       48        7
35   901  81       47        6           1.7     .26
40   946  86       45        5
45   990  90	   44        4           1.6     .26
50   1032 92       42        2
55   1076 95       44        3           1.45    .27
60   1117 96       41        1
And yeah -- as you can see, the DPS added by 5% additional crit DOES decrease as you get more and more of it. But beyond 25% crit, which most of us have, the falloff isn't particularly significant (around 2 dps per 5% crit added). Since that's the range I was looking into with my previous post, well, I didn't screw up THAT badly.

I'm not sure how the current Flurry bug affects all this (would love to have that modeled).

Thats like saying "The more you hit, the more damage you can do" which made sense at the time, but turned out to be false
*sigh*, no it didn't. More hits does mean more damage. What is false is the premise that because more hits means more damage, hit rating is very important. It turns out that,working within a given itemization budget, fewer, bigger hits are worth MORE damage than more, smaller hits. While the opposite may be true for rogues and warriors, with shamans it's all about quality, not quantity.
#5444SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Wundorn View Post
Has anyone plotted this dps benefit change from crit chance 0-100% (and therefore, the change in EP)?
Unbuffed = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^3))*100
Windfury = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^4.2))*100
Windfury + Stormstrike = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^4.4))*100

I estimated Windfury high and Stormstrike at contributing a criminally low value, but you get the idea of where this is going. Once you go past 30%-35% crit your contribution from increased Flurry uptime drops off considerably.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg crituptime.JPG (32.7 KB, 84 views)
#5445SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Unbuffed = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^3))*100
Windfury = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^4.2))*100
Windfury + Stormstrike = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^4.4))*100

I estimated Windfury high and Stormstrike at contributing a criminally low value, but you get the idea of where this is going. Once you go past 30%-35% crit your contribution from increased Flurry uptime drops off considerably.
Yeah I would say you need to turn up WF/Stormstrike alot, at 35% crit (excluding mongoose procs) I have about 95% flurry uptime in raids according to WWS logs. So the 60 something % on that graph is a way off.
#5446SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Bragor
Remember that you gonna have Mongoose procs in game that will seriously skew the graph for you.

& in raids you gonna have mongoose procs unless you gonna go with non enchanted weapons to test it out

EDIT: Just noticed that the OP doesn't have the EP values for Tier 6 geared shamans so did them :

Considered full raid buffs with kings & with a flask.

AP = 1
Str = 2
Agi = 1.52
Crit Rating = 1.72
Hit Rating = 1.64 <== Starting to catch up with crit in EP ?
Haste Rating = 1.74 <== Becomes more important then Crit ?
Armor Penetration = 0.28

Last edited by Bragor : 12/06/07 at 10:22 PM.
#5447SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Maybe I'm dumb and missed a patch note somewhere, but when the hell did Searing Totem start ignoring CC?
#5448SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Think it was implemented with the priest's shadow fiend overhaul in patch 2.2 ?

Still bugs up thought & ends up hitting the target if you hit it first then it gets CCed.
#5449SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Horus
sometimes it hits cc'ed mobs, sometimes it didn't. i've seen Searing hittin shacks and i've seen Searing ignoring sheeps. don't know, is kind of 'blizzard mechanics' "its not a bug, its a feature"

@All-in-One Macro:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=12/target/combat Stormstrike, Earthshock, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Flameshock
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();

maybe 90 % windfury uptime
#5450SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I've been dropping it right next to sheeped mobs in BT to test it, with no other valid target around and it ignores the sheep and only goes for it when broken.
#5476SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Maybe I'm just not searching thoroughly but are there *any* helms out there without meta sockets that would be considered an upgrade from T4?

Also I just checked out the LootRank site and they've already added Melee Haste and done a quick fix in response to your post.
#5477SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
Only [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] or [Grimgrin Faceguard] as far as I can see(if it's an upgrade can be disputed). This from Armor - Items - World of Warcraft

May I ask why you don't want a meta gem?

Edit: added the Grimgrin Faceguard
#5478SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Its not that I don't want a meta gem, its that I want an upgrade from my T4 helm. (Partly aesthetic based, I despise how that helm looks)

According to Pawn with my EP values the Coif is about 60 EP better than T4, and the Grimgrin was a little more than that. But neither greater than the 80 EP that the RED is apparently worth.
#5479SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
Both T5, T6, [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm] and [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] are better, am I missing something essential in this train of thoughts?

Edit: Ah. RED. Never mind me
#5480SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Yah obviously I'll pick up a helm with a meta socket when possible, but what I'm trying to do now is find an upgrade that I have immediate access to like something from ZA or whatever. We're only up to RoS and Bloodboil in BT so I don't have access to the later stuff, and I'm pretty low on the totem pole for a T6 helm (plus our first kill was last night so it would be awhile anyways).
#5481SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
Yeah. I assume you have stopped grinding T5 content and the arena and ZA gear is par with the T4 helmet at best. Best hope for luck with Archy tokens then.

But would you go for [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] instead of T6 if given the chance? Seen a few enhance shamans do that and I don't really have T6 content enhance gear to get numbers to compare them in Yo!
#5482SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Yah the CVoS would be the ideal helm but obviously I'll have 2-4 rogues and a feral druid to compete against, not to mention that Illidan is going to be a few months away. Looks like the options for a helm past T4 are pretty slim pickings, very disappointing.
#5483SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
There is always [Forest Prowler's Helm]. Still four bosses down the road(if you have BB and RoS unkilled), but a nice item.
#5484SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patrik
T5 helm provided great service to me for some months, your guild stopped raiding SSC completely, Malan?
#5485SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
audy
Haste rating vs amor reduction

hi, I'm a enhancement shamy and I would like some suggestion for my raid dps gear.

I raid with 4 pvp merciless gear to get 4 piece bonus set, with 100-126 hit rating (from belt, boots neck, pants)
main hand weapon is Decapitator (mongoose) and my off-hand weapon is Fury (potency, (+20 str))

I'm about to get all the armor reduction gear from badges and ZA

my guild run kara/Z'A (stuck on Dex lord Mala...)/Gruul/SSC

I wana be top dps of our raid but with mage/rogue and hunter its really hard

I wandering if stacking haste gear (rogue set from heroic badges) is better for me then stacking armor reduction...

Taking in consideration that I duel wield with Windfury enchant on both weapons...
haste rating will nerf my windfury proc rate since there is a 3 seccooldown... correct me if I'm wrong...

you can check me out on armory for any sugggestion and/or feel free to e-mail me


thanks

= )

Last edited by audy : 12/10/07 at 10:39 AM.
#5486SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Quizzle
I wana be top dps of our raid but with mage/rogue and hunter its really hard
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're more of a melee support/dps class than a straight up dps class. So it seems to me that we can never really challenge for the top spots dps-wise in a raid. If this isn't the case, I'd love to hear how people are achieving those spots over the so-called "pure" dps classes (as I've always thought we couldn't keep up with equally geared mages/hunters/rogues/locks).

Probably a topic already discussed in another thread, and I don't like hijacking other people's discussions. Forgive me ahead of time. Much love to my Shaman sisters and brethren.
#5487SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Capital
Originally Posted by Quizzle View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're more of a melee support/dps class than a straight up dps class. So it seems to me that we can never really challenge for the top spots dps-wise in a raid. If this isn't the case, I'd love to hear how people are achieving those spots over the so-called "pure" dps classes (as I've always thought we couldn't keep up with equally geared mages/hunters/rogues/locks).

Probably a topic already discussed in another thread, and I don't like hijacking other people's discussions. Forgive me ahead of time. Much love to my Shaman sisters and brethren.
Maybe it's the lack of a well geared rogue, but I tend to be #1 on your average tank and spank boss.
You can easily compete with warriors, hunters, mages and warlocks, last one probably being the hardest.

Not saying that I always beat them, but it's certainly not a clear cut case of them doing more damage.

Then again, the only really "pure" dps class is a rogue, as they add nothing to a raid beside their personal damage.
#5488SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Nurru
Originally Posted by audy View Post
words
Your words are like some sort of optical cancer. Why do you hate us so much?
#5489SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I've been dropping it right next to sheeped mobs in BT to test it, with no other valid target around and it ignores the sheep and only goes for it when broken.
Yep. The problem is the relatively slow projectile. If that projectile is in flight while the target gets cc'ed it will break the sheep then the totem sees it as a viable target and keeps firing.
#5490SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ castille
Originally Posted by audy View Post
hi, I'm a enhancement shamy and I would like some suggestion for my raid dps gear.

I raid with 4 pvp merciless gear to get 4 piece bonus set, with 100-126 hit rating (from belt, boots neck, pants)
main hand weapon is Decapitator (mongoose) and my off-hand weapon is Fury (potency, (+20 str))

I'm about to get all the armor reduction gear from badges and ZA

my guild run kara/Z'A (stuck on Dex lord Mala...)/Gruul/SSC

I wana be top dps of our raid but with mage/rogue and hunter its really hard

I wandering if stacking haste gear (rogue set from heroic badges) is better for me then stacking armor reduction...

Taking in consideration that I duel wield with Windfury enchant on both weapons...
haste rating will nerf my windfury proc rate since there is a 3 seccooldown... correct me if I'm wrong...

you can check me out on armory for any sugggestion and/or feel free to e-mail me


thanks

= )
Oh, that's much better.

You can do good DPS, but you really shouldn't be top. Your windfuries are capped with a 3 second cooldown timer, but all you're going to do is 'shift' the percentages of your yellow and white damage. With haste rating, you'll see more white damage and less yellow in the total percentage of your overall damage. Haste rating is not evil.

Last edited by castille : 12/10/07 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Clarifying my wording.
#5491SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0audy
so whats better haste rating or armor reduction?
#5492SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Yo's sim will answer that question for you.
#5493SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ castille
Originally Posted by audy View Post
so whats better haste rating or armor reduction?
Point for point, haste rating is. However, you usually get armor reduction in batches, and haste rating in tiny offerings. Of note is that Mongoose also doesn't use hast rating, but is a static 2% speed increase.

How valuable it is will entirely depend on your current gear, so you'll have to do some legwork there. I suspect that for most people, the amount of armor pen available will outstrip the amount of haste rating available because of ZA's increased availability of that stat vs needing access to BT to get haste rating.
#5494SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
• Weem
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Maybe I'm just not searching thoroughly but are there *any* helms out there without meta sockets that would be considered an upgrade from T4?

Also I just checked out the LootRank site and they've already added Melee Haste and done a quick fix in response to your post.
Its not without a meta gem (the ones from ZA are the only that I am aware of that could be considered "upgrades" that do not have a meta gem) but Mask of the Deceiver - Items - World of Warcraft is a definite upgrade. Now whether you'll find that ascetically pleasing (go go recolored Nightslayer!) or be willing to spend 50 Badges is yet to be determined.

I'm glad to see that they fixed those problems so quickly. Unfortunately, haste is now bugged but I reckon they'll get that fixed in short order.

Last edited by Weem : 12/10/07 at 1:52 PM.
#5495SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yah the CVoS would be the ideal helm but obviously I'll have 2-4 rogues and a feral druid to compete against, not to mention that Illidan is going to be a few months away. Looks like the options for a helm past T4 are pretty slim pickings, very disappointing.
Although it was already linked, I'll reiterate the advice to pick up the [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm]. Depending on your EP values it's either just below or just above [Cataclysm Helm] in terms of pure DPS stats, and would be a clear upgrade from both the ZA helms without Metas and your Cyclone Helm.

Last edited by Rob : 12/10/07 at 2:31 PM.
#5496SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0grado
Hi all,

Over the last couple of weeks I've been reading the whole thread and grats to Malan and all who have contributed to it.

I'm an Orc shaman and we're just entering BT, I was fortunate enough to have [Rising Tide] drop so I snapped it up, however, I see the Supremus drops the Syphon which is .2 Slower, so I have a conumdrum of which is better for me, does the slower speed and topend SS damage outweigh my weapon expertise?
#5497SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
I checked out that Loot Rank site just now. It will be a nice replacement for Thottbot and Lootzor (which has long since ceased being useful) if they can get the bugs fixed. (Specifically, haste rating and expertise rating are definitely not working properly at the moment.) I still don't get the seeming insistence these types of sites have with "normalizing" the scores. If they would just show me what the item would be scored based on my values, it would make it a lot easier to realize when scores for specific items are bugged in some way. Frankly, I hope Wowhead comes out with something soon that ends this problem once and for all.
#5498SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ujai
I don't quite see why you do not like the Thottbot search function.
Basically what I do is run Yo's Sim, find my EP values, go to the Import/Export tab and copy the Thottbot link.
Whenever I want to search for items again, I just use the adress my browser saved.
As far as I can see, Thott also does not normalize the values, which I like. But maybe I'm just not into it enough to see what needs improvement.
#5499SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Weem
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I checked out that Loot Rank site just now. It will be a nice replacement for Thottbot and Lootzor (which has long since ceased being useful) if they can get the bugs fixed. (Specifically, haste rating and expertise rating are definitely not working properly at the moment.) I still don't get the seeming insistence these types of sites have with "normalizing" the scores. If they would just show me what the item would be scored based on my values, it would make it a lot easier to realize when scores for specific items are bugged in some way. Frankly, I hope Wowhead comes out with something soon that ends this problem once and for all.
I didn't realize expertise wasn't working but you're right it is definitely borked. Loot Rank doesn't normalize the scores like the other sites do (I assume you're meaning them as well and if not my apologies). Its one of the reasons I think they'll be our go to site if they get all the kinks worked out.
#5500SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Ujai View Post
I don't quite see why you do not like the Thottbot search function.
Basically what I do is run Yo's Sim, find my EP values, go to the Import/Export tab and copy the Thottbot link.
Whenever I want to search for items again, I just use the adress my browser saved.
As far as I can see, Thott also does not normalize the values, which I like. But maybe I'm just not into it enough to see what needs improvement.
Thott doesn't support expertise rating. It miscalculates certain items (e.g. Cataclysm Gauntlets) and doesn't let me ignore items that are specific to other classes (e.g. Slayer's Handguards). However, you seem to be correct that Thottbot does not normalize the scores. I guess that the miscalculated items were throwing me off.

Originally Posted by Weem
Loot Rank doesn't normalize the scores like the other sites do (I assume you're meaning them as well and if not my apologies).
Well, I know that the scores which I get from Loot Rank do not equal the EP values of the items. I assumed they were somehow normalizing as Lootzor does, but I guess that they must just be calculating the EP values incorrectly.
#5551SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Fola
Originally Posted by adversary View Post
should i trade in my double syphon maces for the new season 3 weapons?

I tried searching armory to look at your gear to run the simulation, but I don't seem to be able to find your character on US or Europe. I couldn't find an armory link in your profile either. I would be curious also if you have any WWS charts that include the proc effect of the Syphons in a duel wield setup.

Last edited by Fola : 12/12/07 at 2:16 PM. Reason: spelling
#5552SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mengus
Note, [Deathblow X11 Goggles] are not an option for Shaman, as Mail wearing engineers can only make the MAIL items

Last edited by Mengus : 12/12/07 at 4:05 PM.
#5553SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Nemaa
Originally Posted by Fola View Post
I tried searching armory to look at your gear to run the simulation, but I don't seem to be able to find your character on US or Europe. I couldn't find an armory link in your profile either. I would be curious also if you have any WWS charts that include the proc effect of the Syphons in a duel wield setup.
DW Syphon's proc damage is about 3000-4000 damage on an 5 minute fight. It isn't a considerable amount of damage.

edit:
Log from today's ~3 minute Teron fight 2315 damage

Last edited by Nemaa : 12/12/07 at 4:50 PM.
#5554SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
#5555SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0spanko
Two questions about the Sim Yo!. First how come Band of the Eternal Champion is there but greyed out? Second, any chance you can add [Berserker's Call] to the trinket options?
#5556SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by spanko View Post
Two questions about the Sim Yo!. First how come Band of the Eternal Champion is there but greyed out? Second, any chance you can add [Berserker's Call] to the trinket options?
Add 150 to your AP for [Berserker's Call] and [Band of the Eternal Champion]'s passive proc is about 26.6 AP, add it as well to your ap.

Yo: Thanks for the update!
#5557SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0adversary
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Use the simulator and see if it's an upgrade? Christ. You don't even deserve those weapons...
i think i deserve my double syphons more than someone that is dumb enough to use the 40 critical strike trinket, rather than the 80 atk power trinket for pvp. :P

but anyway i think im going to probably do MH syphon and OH s3
#5558SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Ok the Wiki is supposedly going live on Monday. The wiki article that I labored on months ago is horribly out of date and I really don't feel like bringing it back in line with this thread. So I'm going to just copy this over it and change everything over to the wiki format.

That said, I need to know how people feel about things, whether I should move/rearrange content around to flow better. Basically do things make sense organizationally?

Also note that over in the wiki I will have Moderator status and can delete stupid posts.
#5559SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
Awesome! Thanks Yo!
#5560SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Oscarwilde
I'm interested in validating some AEP results from Yo's simulator for my shaman. as a reference, here are his stats:

Power
1322
Hit Rating:
134
Crit Chance:
26.61%
Expertise:
0

armory: The World of Warcraft Armory


what im curious to know is the break even point between crit and AP. according to yo's simulator, at my current gear level AP/strength is valued higher than my crit (running at ~27%) until I approach 2k AP unbuffed. I would think that 2k AP unbuffed is quite a high goal to reach, even being in BT.

cutting to the point, am I truly getting the most DPS at my current gear level keeping 26% crit and 1.3k AP or, going against yo's simulator, would I get more out of 30% AP and 1.1-1.2AP? IE: am I reading/using the numbers right, or not taking into account the value of crit through flurry and UR ? :P

Last edited by Oscarwilde : 12/12/07 at 6:35 PM.
#5561SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Test with Yo's simulator shows that mongoose > executioner with almoust any gear level. Highend raid values and Cor up its can be possible. With default values but scaling armor penetration you need 3200armor penetration to get executioned to par with mongoose. I would likely see if anyone will get Executioner > mongoose with own gear from Yo's sim.
#5562SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
Test with Yo's simulator shows that mongoose > executioner with almoust any gear level. Highend raid values and Cor up its can be possible. With default values but scaling armor penetration you need 3200armor penetration to get executioned to par with mongoose. I would likely see if anyone will get Executioner > mongoose with own gear from Yo's sim.
I'm only getting a 1 dps (mongoose > executioner) difference with 399 armor pen on a 3690 armor mob(7700-800-610-2600). When I switch my ring/trinket out for more optimum ones executioner takes the lead by 1 dps.
#5563SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Karok(EU)
Yo,

Will "use" trinkets be added aswell sometime? Currently they are ignored.
And perhaps the new badge totem aswell?
And ofcourse thanks for the update

@ Oscarwilde: Its in the nature of %'s to scale. So the more AP you get the more valuable crit, hit, expertise, armor penetration (reduces enemy damage migitation by a % depending on its current armor) will become.
2k AP unbuffed will be quite high I recon, even in BT gear. However in a raid you can add a huge portion to that from raid buffs, procs, consumables and ofcourse your own str totem .
#5564SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Karok(EU) View Post
Will "use" trinkets be added aswell sometime? Currently they are ignored.
This has been noted several times. Take the "over time" EP value of the trinket and add it to your attack power as a static value.
#5565SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Oscarwilde View Post
what im curious to know is the break even point between crit and AP. according to yo's simulator, at my current gear level AP/strength is valued higher than my crit (running at ~27%) until I approach 2k AP unbuffed. I would think that 2k AP unbuffed is quite a high goal to reach, even being in BT.
This is not surprising. AP/Strength has consistently been one of the best uses of item budget for enhancement shamans. Patch 2.3 only improved the value of AP/Strength by making it affect our shocks as well as our melee damage. While the 2.2 version of Yo's sim told me that without BoK, crit rating was superior to strength, the 2.3 version is telling me that strength is superior even without BoK.
cutting to the point, am I truly getting the most DPS at my current gear level keeping 26% crit and 1.3k AP or, going against yo's simulator, would I get more out of 30% AP and 1.1-1.2AP?
Run both numbers through the sim, find out which has higher DPS. Evaluate upgrades using EP numbers the sim gives. As your gear improves, I would expect you to reach about 1600 AP and 30% crit, at which point you'll start seeing crit rating and haste rating being nearly as good as Strength.
#5566SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
Great to see you're back in action. Thanks for this latest update. I'll make a couple functionality requests in order of importance to me:
1) Support expertise/expertise rating, both in DPS calculation and EP calculation. (When you do, I'd enjoy some commentary on how you're calculating EP as well.)
2) Allow people to select the number of talent points in Reverberation, Concussion, and Elemental Devastation.
3) Add Stonebreaker's Totem to the totem selection options. (Yes, we could just manually add 35 AP to our AP, but I'd rather use the interface.)
4) UI clean-up. This is the least exciting task probably. I'd suggest going to something like this:
Tab 1: "Stats & EP Values"
Tab 2: "Enchants & Procs" (move shocks/min to Tab 1 and move Talents to its own tab)
Tab 3: "Talents"
Tab 4: "Buffs & Debuffs" (allow us to set boss debuffs such as CoR, FF, SA on this page... probably move Boss Armor input here too, though I'm not 100% sure what makes the most sense from a design standpoint)
Tab 5: "Import/Export"
Tab 6: "Forensic Report"

Obviously, any improvements you're able to make are always welcome, and thanks again for your service to the community.

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
This has been noted several times. Take the "over time" EP value of the trinket and add it to your attack power as a static value.
Technically, this only works nicely for the AP use trinkets... for Abacus, you'd want to take the haste percentage over time and add it as a static value. Not a really big deal though. Definitely at the bottom of my feature request list.
#5567SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Edit: Posted one too many times. Delete.
#5568SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
There must be a bug in the UR calculations. Disabling it, only decreases my DPS by a small value. I discovered it a few days ago, before the new version, but it hasn't changed.

I used following values for the simulation (5000 hrs):

Stats top to bottom: 1700, 32, 21, 2, 4000, 250, 100.2, 2.8, 0, 100.2, 2.8, 0, 3, 6
Procs: Dual Windfury and Mongoose, DST and Tsunami, no Totem, T6 4pc, no shocks
Buffs: Default with no Potion and active Battleshout

With UR I get 1331 DPS, without 1324. If I manually add 200 AP it results in 1392 DPS.

Also it would be nice if the nerfed proc chance of Ashtongue Talisman (50%) could be implemented.
#5569SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Btw Seems that MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News is up for enhancement Shamans.

Most of the gear choices there provide the same choices as I got from Yo's sim.
#5570SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Malan
How are they calculating that stuff?
MaxDPS.com - View topic - Enhancement Shaman Formulas
There's the page with their formulas.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but look this bit from the Windfury DPS code.
$procRate = ((1/$MHspeed)+(1/$OHspeed))*.20;
For 2x 2.6 weapons that means $procRate = 0.1538, which doesn't seem right.

[e] Ok I sent the site author an email and asked him to post here explaining how his system works. Its quite clear that he's not doing a combat simulation but his item rankings are *spot on* with what Yo's sim is giving me.
[e2] If this is really as accurate as it *seems* to be at first glance, this guy has discovered some magical formulas that might actually enable us to just use a spreadsheet instead of a sim.

Last edited by Malan : 12/13/07 at 9:06 AM.
#5571SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xoya
That sim seems to be undervaluing armor penetration, to me. Anyone else noticed this as well?
#5572SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Armor Pen on it looks fine to me, its saying with my stats that 10 armor penetration is a 7 DPS increase, which is much more than any of the other stats it shows. The item lists line up almost exactly with what my simulator EP values give.
#5573SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Xoya
That's 100 armor pentetration, not 10.. when I divide the numbers out for my gear, I get:

1 str = .615; 1 armor pen = .0738

If we extrapolate into EP, where 1 str = 2.2, then armor pen = 0.264.

For comparison, my numbers are what's on my Armory profile:

1560 AP, 118 HR, 31.48 crit, 37 haste, 3500 boss armor, 168 armor pen, 0 expertise rating, and 468 magic damage, with everything but Totem of the Astral Winds checked.

Edit to add: in addition, if I increase my armor penetration to 1000, then armor pen becomes worth 0.28 relative to strength.

Last edited by Xoya : 12/13/07 at 10:32 AM.
#5574SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Well note that the MaxDPS page is using 3500 as the default boss armor but Yo has it set to 4400, so the comparison might be off from that too.
#5575SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lambach
The main problem I've found with armor pen on maxdps is that it doesnt increase dmg from more armor pen based on how much armor pen you already have. So even if you get the boss to 0 armor, armor pen is still worth the same as having him at 3500 armor. Its just a static value based off your other stats.
#5576SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
• Disquette
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
Btw Seems that MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News is up for enhancement Shamans.

Most of the gear choices there provide the same choices as I got from Yo's sim.
Interesting, since he doesn't have the windfury 3 second cooldown implemented.

He doesn't have the stormstrike bug implemented

He has no section for raid debuffs

I don't think he has enchants on there (mongoose/crusader)

He makes no differentiation of offhand and mainhand WF procs due to weapon speeds

He doesn't increase dual wielding WF rate to 36% (instead of 20%)

His simulator is incredibly basic compared to Yo's. Interesting that your gear choices were the same.

Last edited by Disquette : 12/13/07 at 11:08 AM.
#5577SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
Like I said, I sent him an email asking him to explain how he has it working.
#5578SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
the formulas he's shown so far, on which I've based my objections and let him know:
MaxDPS.com - View topic - Enhancement Shaman Formulas

Also, I just put in my stats. The only 2 differences between importing Yo!'s rankings into lootzor/thottbot versus this site (in terms of actual rankings) were ring and boots.

This is for the #1 spot only. I didn't look at the rankings below the #1 spot.

Also, this site is neat in that it lets us know that if we could use the rogue set armor, slayer's, that we'd have upgrades in 4 of the 5 slots compared to what's available now (and the 5th slot is the helm, in which only the Illidan drop cursed-vision is better than the slayer's gear).

GG @ itemization.
#5579SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Most items won't shuffle around too much for us I'd imagine, unless they were already really close on stats. These quirks that define our dps are significant when added up, but when you look at items individually, they aren't going to easily push around the item order due to things like stormstrike missing based on main hand hits etc.

Also yeah, there's even some really nice feral druid stuff that I see popping up in thottbot item weight searches.
#5580SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Also, this site is neat in that it lets us know that if we could use the rogue set armor, slayer's, that we'd have upgrades in 4 of the 5 slots compared to what's available now (and the 5th slot is the helm, in which only the Illidan drop cursed-vision is better than the slayer's gear).

GG @ itemization.
The really sad and disappointing thing is that holds true for some of the hunter and druid PvP gear. Compare [Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Tunic] and [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Armor] to [Skyshatter Tunic], the helms from those sets to [Skyshatter Cover], and [Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Spaulders] to [Skyshatter Pauldrons]. The legs are a wash with Skyshatter in terms of DPS stats. So 4/5 of our tier gear is so badly itemized that PvP gear from other classes is preferable. It's not even an item level issue, since the items are all level 146 and have the same number of sockets (though not color).
#5581SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ujai
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
the formulas he's shown so far, on which I've based my objections and let him know:
Also, I just put in my stats. The only 2 differences between importing Yo!'s rankings into lootzor/thottbot versus this site (in terms of actual rankings) were ring and boots.

This is for the #1 spot only. I didn't look at the rankings below the #1 spot.
That may be due to the fact that there are only so many best items in the game; they just cannot really vary alot after all.

What I find interesting though, is that this site puts the bagde leather items (with haste) MUCH higher than Yo's Sim would suggest.
#5582SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Kahdrick
I've been following this thread for some time (long-time reader, first-time poster), and I haven't seen anything that mentioned additional gear for an enhance shaman, such as bringing a healing weapon and shield in case of emergencies. Frankly, these situations come up most often in 5-man heroics, and less and less often in 10 mans and 25 mans, but they still come up. Here are my thoughts on the matter:

Simply put: An enhance shaman should always carry at least a main hand healing weapon and a healing shield in their bags for use in emergencies.

Here's my reasoning:
Always carry a shield in case you need to off-tank a hard-hitting mob or for those "oh crap" situations where you either pull aggro or the tank dies. Combined with the 30% damage reduction from shamanistic rage, you should easily be able to survive for 30 seconds just as well as any tank (ample time for a tank to get the threat back if you stop attacking, or for someone else more suitable for long-term tanking to get aggro).

In cases where you do pull aggro - STOP ATTACKING. Just spam LHW on yourself and hope you don't die. If you keep attacking, your threat will skyrocket (especially now that you've popped shamrage) and it will be that much harder for someone to pull the mob off of you.

You may even want to carry two or three shields, if bag space is not a concern for you. One shield for elemental dps use in situations where melee is impossible (time to kill Krosh Firehand and Maulgar is in the middle of WW), one shield for healing (a healer died, or your healing just needs a little push for a while), and one shield for off-tanking (oh shit!). I've found that by far the most use I get out of a shield is healing, and the 2nd most is tanking. I almost never do elemental dps. Thus, I recommend carrying only one shield, a healing shield, if bag space is a concern. This will still provide the armor mitigation (significant mitigation) and will allow you the +healing stats you need for healing, without providing the very modest +block and +block value increases.

Additional MH weapons for use with a shield are also good. When tanking, your highest dps weapon will also be your highest threat generation weapon, so you don't need a separate weapon for that. In oh shit situations, you shouldn't be attacking, so it doesn't matter what is in your main hand (remove your weapon completely in case you die so that you save gold on repairs). For elemental dps, you will want a +damage weapon, but since my experience is that enhance shamans almost never use elemental dps, there's really no need to take up your bag space with this. Thus, you should carry a healing MH item, which are easy to find. Since the item will primarily be used for spot heals and emergencies, enchanting it with +81 healing will be more beneficial than spellsurge - you will still be wearing your enhance gear, so mp5 won't help that much - you're not going to be an effective endurance healer anyway.

When healing, you can continue to dps. If mana is a concern, stop your shock rotation, but maintain stormstrike and auto-attack since those cost little mana (or are free) and cause a large portion of your damage %. Sure, dps will go down due to the fact that you're not using your melee weapons, but if you prep your healing weapon with WF or FT, it'll still proc (do this before encounters, not during them - the buff lasts for 30 minutes, so you have plenty of time to do it). Also, your swing timer will likely be up each time you finish a heal, so even if you spam heals a swing will occur.

It's best to make a macro that swaps your MH and OH for your healing weapon and shield, and another macro that swaps back, and keep those on your hotbars or bound to easy to reach keys. Swapping back is particularly annoying because most off-hand weapons for a shaman are actually "One-Hand" and simply left clicking the item from your bags will swap it with your Main Hand weapon instead of with your shield.

Edit: Yakout makes a great point below. When I wrote this, I wasn't even aware that there were any off-hand caster weapons left in the game. Gotta get me one of those!

Last edited by Kahdrick : 12/13/07 at 5:55 PM.
#5583SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yakout
Originally Posted by Kahdrick View Post
It's best to make a macro that swaps your MH and OH for your healing weapon and shield, and another macro that swaps back, and keep those on your hotbars or bound to easy to reach keys. Swapping back is particularly annoying because most off-hand weapons for a shaman are actually "One-Hand" and simply left clicking the item from your bags will swap it with your Main Hand weapon instead of with your shield.
If you're going down the road of spot-healing with properly enchanted healing items, then this is not actually the right path to take. Forget the shield unless you're actively taking melee damage; instead off-hand a [Knight's War Hammer], [Razor Scythes], [Rockbiter Cutter], or (eww) [Phantom Dagger] of the Sorcerer/Invoker with a +81 healing enchant on it. In the cases where you continue to melee in between heals, this will reduce your DPS much less than having a shield out, plus you'll frankly get far more short-burst, non-sustained healing stats out of these. The extra Int or MP5 from a shield will be of less use for short-term healing than an extra 50 or so +heal (and possibly even a spot of spell crit).

(Yes, this also applies with spot-elemental DPS'ing, but that is, as you noted, an almost non-existant thing.)
#5584SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Using my stats on the java sim and 2000 hours, I imported my aep values into Enhancer, which gives EP values to items based on the aep values from the sim, this is something i'm a bit perplexed about though, it tells me.. well, see for yourself: http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2...ntrightdp5.png

Why is it telling me that this inferior chest is better?

Thanks
#5585SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rapparee
I agree with Kahdrick, just didn't think this was the thread for discussion of such things. But it is something that Malan may consider putting in the first post, since he's got an "evaluating a shaman for your raid' type section.... sorry I didn't have the exact wording.


Personally, I don't use "whoops i've pulled aggro" shield + weapon macro. Aside from High King Maulgar, all other bosses would have one-shot me when i was wearing gear appropriate for fighting them. Perhaps... just perhaps, I could survive a hurtful strike from Gruul today, if I was wearing a shield and had 13k life + shamanistic rage.

I do however, always carry my healing shield + healing weapon. Though i'd be better served with a second one-handed weapon with +81 healing enchant on it... currently any weapon with 81 on it is better than any shield when you're only casting 1 or 2 heals per fight. However, that's pretty damn expensive.

I heal with macros that read like this:
/cast lesser healing wave
/equip merciless gladiator's salvation
/equip aegis of the vindicator
/equip totem of the plains

I may have a typo in that macro, not sure.
And actually I use Clique to have that macro cast when I press "Shift + left click".
I have another macro
/cast healing wave
/equip merciless gladiator's salvation
/equip aegis of the vindicator
/equip totem of spontaneous regrowth

And finally there's one for Chain Heal that includes totem of healing rains.


I actually use all three types of casts during Archimonde encounters. I'm in the melee group with tremor totem down, and we're normally swinging at Archi's tail. If there are two doomfires visible on my screen and tremor has just released me from a fear.... I know that there's at most two healers in range and unfeared for the MainTank, I spam LHW, then HW on the tank regardless of what the tank's life looks like.
We've had a bear of a time controlling doomfires, and more times than I like to count, 2 or 3 of us in the melee group get DF. I have to stop meleeing anyway, due to all the fire, so I simply spam chain heal to lessen the healing burden on others.

Sometimes on trash in the orc encampment I need to heal in the situation where most of the raid is off on the gargoyles, the tank near melee dies, and soon after our healer dies.... I'll have to finish that wave healing while those two guys run back. I'm not saying this happens every single week... it's just that when it does happen it sucks to wipe in Hyjal and essentially waste 30minutes reclearing the waves.

So those are two easy to spot times, when you can either predict healing or have time to react and heal. BT doesn't have as many times like this.... You can heal melee during the kite phase of supremus, but they can just as easily bandage or grab a HoT during that phase...heck even healing stream could probably fill them up.

Also for that guy 3 pages ago doing void reaver....
Get 3 shaman and have them stand in the pounding along with the tanks and melee.
2 of them resto, spamming chain heal. One of those resto is in the main tank group with windfury totem down.
1 of them enhance with tranquil air totem in the melee dps group.
No one ever moves out of the pounding area.
#5586SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kasi
I as an elemental shaman have survived being hit by several bosses. Supremus and Theladred come to mind. Although neither was due to pulling agro, more dealing with proximity on switches. Having a shield would give you a substantial amount of mitigation, especially with SR. Whether you can use your macro and have SR ready to pop when it happens is the much more difficult question.
#5587SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Interesting, since he doesn't have the windfury 3 second cooldown implemented.
...
He makes no differentiation of offhand and mainhand WF procs due to weapon speeds
should be at least partially offset by
He doesn't increase dual wielding WF rate to 36% (instead of 20%)
I think an analysis of the average & worst case scenario effects of ignoring these points is in order.

He doesn't have the stormstrike bug implemented
SS "bug", as I understand it, will occur at about the same rate your Stormstrikes are missed/dodged/parried. Which on my meters is 10% of the time. Stormstrike is 9% of my damage. +/- .9%

He has no section for raid debuffs
...
I don't think he has enchants on there (mongoose/crusader)
Shouldn't matter all that much in terms of relative stat weights, though this will affect that "This is your DPS" line.

His simulator is incredibly basic compared to Yo's.
It's not a simulator. It's not doing what simulation does (allow us to research new theories). It's just offering a quick, direct answer to the question of "what gear will help me get stronger." Think of it as theorycraft light: a flat model, based on proven formulas and research but removing the complex fiddly details under the assumption that they won't significantly affect gear selection. This makes it far less accurate in predicting real DPS but almost as accurate in making gear suggestions, all without the intensive CPU effort of simulation.

Is this assumption valid? That's for us to determine, and so far I ALSO found to more or less model what I have discovered using Yo's/Thottbot.

I think it's interesting these guys are using "DPS" as a sort of relative indicator similar to EP but more accessible and potentially more useful. If you don't expect that "this is your DPS" line to be anything more than a relative indicator, this site is an intriguing new tool.

My biggest problems are that he's missing some gear, that there's no option to remove BoP gear from professions you don't have, that it offers quest and rep rewards that are faction specific to everybody.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/13/07 at 3:11 PM.
#5588SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
paradox - Just a guess, but the EP values on those tooltips might not be considering the gems correctly.
#5589SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
paradox - Just a guess, but the EP values on those tooltips might not be considering the gems correctly.
Is that something I should report to the Enhancer developer then? I don't think it has anything to do with RatingBuster which just gives the summary and isn't included in any calcuations as far as I can tell.
#5590SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Why is it telling me that this inferior chest is better?

Thanks
Enhancement Itemization Points != EP values. Personally, I turned them off and only use "AEP."

Think about it, man -- if the item has 166 AP, how the heck is it going to have less than 100 EP?

EIP is some other kind of analysis, which I don't understand but assume (from the name) is a breakdown of how much of the item's itemization budget was spent on Enhancer friendly stats (rather than stuff like Int, Stam or Resilience).
#5591SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
What is it you "use" for "AEP"? All I have for the stat weights is Enhancer.

Another question about the stat simulator.. when you add a trinket, say the hourglass, is that just the proc on the hourglass or does it add the crit rating too?
#5592SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Paradox: the crit is already added to your paper doll stats, so no it just adds the proc.

As for Enhancer, I turn off the display of every stat weight system EXCEPT for AEP.

I get my EP from Yo's. I enter it using /enhancer EPNumbers AEP CrazyShamanStats <stat weights>.

Incidentally, I'm a little bugged about Enhancer's rounding system and the fact that it defaults to a high-end raid value for meta gems. My hit rating is worth 1.56 and my crit rating 1.64. Both of these round to 1.6, and so Enhancer things Crit Rating = Hit Rating. That, combined with the meta gem thing, leads it to suggest that [Helm of the Claw] is an upgrade (I'm fairly certain it isn't).
#5593SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Stuff about maxdps
If he wants to have a rudimentary tool that is mostly good, then he's got it right.

If he wants to help people achieve MAXDPS.com, then he doesn't have it right.

When I see the name that the site has, along with gear recommendations in front of people, which will occasionally result in someone choosing the wrong piece of gear, I have a logic problem with that.

If some n000blet goes to the site and finds out that with his 1.3 daggers he really needs to load up on +hit (because the site doesn't respect the 3 second cooldown), then the site is doing a disservice by a) not showing how bad his dps really will be and b) recommending more +hit so that WF will proc more. Can't WF unless you hit!
#5594SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Malan
If you use Pawn and just change the string provided in the OP, you don't have to deal with most of that sillyness.
#5595SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Kahdrick View Post
In cases where you do pull aggro - STOP ATTACKING. Just spam LHW on yourself and hope you don't die. If you keep attacking, your threat will skyrocket (especially now that you've popped shamrage) and it will be that much harder for someone to pull the mob off of you.
I actually disagree with spamming LHW, it heals for so little over what you get hit for even with SR up. I would rather take my chances with my combined dodge/block/parry/miss in a raid setting and let the healers do that job instead.
#5596SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
If you use Pawn and just change the string provided in the OP, you don't have to deal with most of that sillyness.
Is it better to just disable enhancers AEP values option and use Pawn for that then? Like you said, just changing the values of the string in the OP to that of the simulators?
#5597SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Weem
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Paradox: the crit is already added to your paper doll stats, so no it just adds the proc.

As for Enhancer, I turn off the display of every stat weight system EXCEPT for AEP.

I get my EP from Yo's. I enter it using /enhancer EPNumbers AEP CrazyShamanStats <stat weights>.

Incidentally, I'm a little bugged about Enhancer's rounding system and the fact that it defaults to a high-end raid value for meta gems. My hit rating is worth 1.56 and my crit rating 1.64. Both of these round to 1.6, and so Enhancer things Crit Rating = Hit Rating. That, combined with the meta gem thing, leads it to suggest that [Helm of the Claw] is an upgrade (I'm fairly certain it isn't).
Enhancer accepts up to 2 decimals. It didn't use to by has recently. All my values have 2 decimals and I'm having no problems with it. Also, Helm of the Claw is actually a very nice item. Its the best helm heading into ZA or T5 content. The only reason I replaced it with my T4 helm is I knew people wouldn't understand that its better (that and it looks hideous).
#5598SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yakout
Yo's simulator is producing some... odd results. Something is definitely amiss with it, as I'm consistently getting EP values in the 6-7 range for all non-AP/Str stats except APen, for which I'm getting around 1.
#5599SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0drats
Originally Posted by Kahdrick View Post
It's best to make a macro that swaps your MH and OH for your healing weapon and shield, and another macro that swaps back, and keep those on your hotbars or bound to easy to reach keys. Swapping back is particularly annoying because most off-hand weapons for a shaman are actually "One-Hand" and simply left clicking the item from your bags will swap it with your Main Hand weapon instead of with your shield.
I've found that using the 'QuickWeaponSwap' mod does this pretty well, it's easy to find on cursed. I keep my dps weapons sets and my healing weapons on keybinds so I can drop quick heals in battle. I've gotten 4k+ crit HWs, so it's definately useful every now and again.
#5600SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
If he wants to help people achieve MAXDPS.com, then he doesn't have it right.
See, I'm a skeptic, too -- but unless one can PROVE one's assumptions, one isn't really theorycrafting. Here's a good assumption to start with:

If some n000blet goes to the site and finds out that with his 1.3 daggers he really needs to load up on +hit (because the site doesn't respect the 3 second cooldown), then the site is doing a disservice by a) not showing how bad his dps really will be and b) recommending more +hit so that WF will proc more.
Well, again, there are lots of reasons to use slower weapons, of which the cooldown is only one. MaxDPS does show slow weapons being better, but the amount of the disparity seems low. If you enter a pair of 1.3s weapons, you get a "DPS value" that's about 4% lower than if you enter a pair of 2.7s weapons (on Yo's it's more like 17%). As a result, there are some bad suggestions in there such as Stellaris and the Stormreaver Warblades, and Guile of Khoraazi is way over-represented. In any case, the best weapons are 2.6.

As for hit rating: using 5-man dungeon stats (1000 AP, 15% crit, 15% hit), your "DPS per 10" ratings are Hit Rating: 1.60, Crit Rating: 2.73, Strength: 4.18 with 1.3s weapons, vs 1.77, 2.85 and 4.38 for 2.7s. So actually, it's upvaluing HR with SLOW weapons (just checeked, yo's does the same) -- but it's also making it blatantly obvious that strength and crit rating are more important.

Does the site suggest maximum DPS? The gear this site claims is best is the SAME as the gear other methods claims is best, so maybe. As an armor upgrade selection site it does really well even though its weapon choices are off. However, I don't think it's impossible to find some way to generally express the 3s cooldown's effect on DPS in a flat equation -- say, each .1s of speed beyond 1.3s is worth 1.2% additional damage -- derived from simulations.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/13/07 at 4:59 PM.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Joy
-edit

Typo my end.

Last edited by Joy : 12/13/07 at 6:13 PM.
#5602SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
See, I'm all for skepticism -- but unless you can PROVE that the assumptions MAXDPS is making will result in bad gear choices, you're not really theorycrafting. Here's a good assumption to start with:


Well, again, there are lots of reasons to use slower weapons, of which the cooldown is only one. However, weapon choice is a bit of failure. If you enter a pair of 1.3s weapons, you get a "DPS value" that's about 4% lower than if you enter a pair of 2.7s weapons (on Yo's it's more like 17%). As a result, there are some bad suggestions in there such as Stellaris and the Stormreaver Warblades, and Guile of Khoraazi is way over-represented. In any case, the best weapons are 2.6.

As for hit rating: using 5-man dungeon stats (1000 AP, 15% crit, 15% hit), your "DPS per 10" ratings are Hit Rating: 1.60, Crit Rating: 2.73, Strength: 4.18 with 1.3s weapons, vs 1.77, 2.85 and 4.38 for 2.7s. So actually, it's upvaluing HR with SLOW weapons (just checeked, yo's does the same) -- but it's also making it blatantly obvious that strength and crit rating are more important. So, there's one for MaxDPS.

So it has a ways to go. Would it offer MaxDPS? Well, the gear this site claims is best is the SAME as the gear other methods claims is best, so maybe. As an armor upgrade selection site, it does really well. But its weapon choices are, as you hypothesized, off. However, I don't think it's impossible to find some way to generally express the 3s cooldown's effect on DPS in a flat equation -- say, each .1s of speed beyond 1.3s is worth 1.2% additional damage -- derived from simulations.

I just guessed that the faster weapons would over value hit. I was wrong on that (and am still pretty surprised by that... I'll have to think more about why that is), but since it was an example of a possible outcome, I don't think it matters. As for it recommending gear improperly, I already showed 2 examples (ring and something else, in an ealier post) where it ranks them wrong.

Well, wrong if you consider Yo!'s sim to be a more accurate test. I know I sure do.
#5603SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Joy View Post
Wow.

MaxDps 'values' put the [Brooch of Deftness] at 46.5

And the [Choker of Endless Nightmares] at 42.51

5 Expertise 1 hit rating > 72 AP 27 crit rating.

It is possible that it assumes I'm hitting from the front, thus doubling the effect of expertise?
(Probably not because the attack table has Parry/Dodge at 5% rather than ~~15 if it included parry)

If this is the case it's made my day 'cause Supremus has only dropped his necklace twice in over 20 kills.
Not to mention a solid chunk of H P.
He doesn't say how he uses expertise. I have no doubt he doesn't use it correctly. Don't pay attention to crazy things like that. By the way, i use the Brooch of Deftness - it's nothing personal I have against expertise (I'm at 56 rating = 14 expertise atm). I would love to upgrade to the supremus neck, but our guild has a huge backlog on them and I'm just a casual.

There ya go toots, another good example of bad gear ranking from the site.
#5604SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
• Toots Hepcat
Well, what are your other stats looking like? That Brooch doesn't show up on my list until I enter an absurdly high value for unbuffed crit rating and an absurdly low value for hit rating, like 42% with 0% hit. In which case the extra crit on the choker would be pretty useless, the hit would cancel out, and you'd be effectively comparing 1.25% additional hits vs 72 AP.

You aren't entering raid buffed values in those fields are you, are you? It's looking for your un-raid buffed paper doll values for crit percentage and hit rating (yo's expects a hit percentage).

Disq: I feel that, due to a general trend towards good gear suggestions, this site could be really useful. In the areas where it fails, I'd rather provide constructive feedback than write it off as unreliable. In any event, I'll still be using Yo's to dream up and test hare brained new gear combos -- it's an uncanny resource.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/13/07 at 5:22 PM.
#5605SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
He doesn't say how he uses expertise. I have no doubt he doesn't use it correctly. Don't pay attention to crazy things like that. By the way, i use the Brooch of Deftness - it's nothing personal I have against expertise (I'm at 56 rating = 14 expertise atm). I would love to upgrade to the supremus neck, but our guild has a huge backlog on them and I'm just a casual.

There ya go toots, another good example of bad gear ranking from the site.
I don't see how its possible he's getting that neck there.. from my stats it's not even listed on the list for necklaces. Something seems very wrong and I don't think its the site.

Rest of the items are 99% identical to my thottbot lists, with afew differences such as belts, but that because thott doesn't have expertise yet.

Although it would be nice if the site would cache or have a save option for your inputted values.
#5606SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Hit rating does not support faster weapons without cooldown due to fact that WF is normalised by flat proc rate. Meaning it will be equal for all speeds without cooldown. The reason why slow weapons still pull ahead is SS.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Unaz
Item lists

Ok, I maintain a list here for my own reference as to which bosses I need/don't need, and haven't updated it since ZA to see what's new. Also, now that I'm finally in BT and have access to Epic gems, that changes the weights on some items for me, with some gemmed items overtaking non socketed ones.

So using Loot Rank and Maxdps, I made a double chart of top items for each slot (for me) with base weighted values for the gem slots, and then maxdps did it's own thing with socketing epic gems and weighting based on my stats (mix t5/6). Now I know maxdps has formulas that are still under construction, and I may tweak it again later, but these items feel pretty solid to me as to their rankings. I know that a lot of you prefer to run a sim based on gear changes, which may effect a few items, but I'm fairly comfortable with generating a list and going by that, and hopefully this will help others as well.

The one issue I did have, which seems to mainly effect gloves, is expertise rating. I think I may have over-weighed it, and will have to look into it more later.

I also made an effort to extend each list far enough to include at least one boe crafted or pvp/badge item. Which means that at least one item in these end game gear lists should be obtainable by anyone without relying on luck. I couldn't really do it with rings though, so the pvp rings are your best bet most likely. Ideally a person can essentially get top 10 gearing without needing to rely on a random drop by using these lists.

Loot Rank URL used * I don't remember where I got my expertise rating from, it may be wildly inaccurate.

Thottbot URL (Used it to verify at first, but lootrank came out even enough that Thott wasn't needed)

Head (sans gems, but still weighting slots using thottbot/lootrank):
  1. [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] [338.5] (BT - Illidan)
  2. [Forest Prowler's Helm] [270.2] (BT - Zerevor)
  3. [Skyshatter Cover] [251.6] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  4. [Grimgrin Faceguard] [251.6] (ZA - Zul'jin)
  5. [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] [241.5] (ZA - Hex Lord)
  6. [Surestrike Goggles v2.0] [237.6] (Engineering)
  7. [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm] [232.92] (Arena)

With epic gems from Maxdps:
  1. [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] [105.38] (BT - Illidan)
  2. [Forest Prowler's Helm] [88.85] (BT - Zerevor)
  3. [Skyshatter Cover] [84.07] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  4. [Cataclysm Helm] [80.1] (SSC - Vashj)
  5. [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm] [78.86] (Arena)
  6. [Mask of the Deceiver] [71.49] (Badges)
*Note, engineering stuff doesn't seem to show up in their list.
Shoulder (sans gems):
  1. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] [211.3] (SSC - Hydross)
  2. [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] [207.6] (BT - Akama)
  3. [Mantle of Darkness] [197.6] (BT - Naj'entus)
  4. [Swiftstrike Shoulders] [192.14] (Leatherworking - BoE pattern from BT)
  5. [Razorfury Mantle] [186.2] (Hyjal - Kaz'rogal)
  6. [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] [185.96] (Leatherworking - BoE pattern from BT)
  7. [Skyshatter Pauldrons] [184.6] (BT - Mother Shahraz)
  8. [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] [178.8] (ZA - Nalorakk)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] [51.61] (SSC - Hydross)
  2. [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] [50.93] (BT - Akama)
  3. [Skyshatter Pauldrons] [48.91] (BT - Mother Shahraz)
  4. [Mantle of Darkness] [48.88] (BT - Naj'entus)
  5. [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] [47.5] (ZA - Nalorakk)
  6. [Razorfury Mantle] [44.82] (Hyjal - Kaz'rogal)
  7. [Mantle of the Tireless Tracker] [43.55] (SSC - Morogrim)
*Note, leatherworking items are not showing up in list.
Neck (sans gems):
  1. [Choker of Endless Nightmares] [155.4] (BT - Supremus)
  2. [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] [126.5] (TK - Kael'thas sphere drop)
  3. [Choker of Serrated Blades] [126.4] (BT/Hyjal Trash)
  4. [Pendant of the Perilous] [118] (SSC Trash)
  5. [Vindicator's Pendant of Triumph] [117.8] (BG Honor)
  6. [Choker of Animalistic Fury] [114.8] (SSC - Lurker)
  7. [Brooch of Deftness] [112.22] (Badges)
  8. [Choker of Vile Intent] [108.8] (Bages)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Choker of Endless Nightmares] [39.67] (BT - Supremus)
  2. [Choker of Serrated Blades] [31.92] (BT/Hyjal Trash)
  3. [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] [31.66] (TK - Kael'thas sphere drop)
  4. [Vindicator's Pendant of Triumph] [30.11] (BG Honor)
  5. [Pendant of the Perilous] [30.04] (SSC Trash)
  6. [Choker of Animalistic Fury] [28.47] (SSC - Lurker)
  7. [The Savage's Choker] [28.19] (ZA - Halazzi)
  8. [Haramad's Bargain] [27.11] (Consortium Exalted)
  9. [Mithril Chain of Heroism] [26.9] (Karazhan - Chess)
  10. [Choker of Vile Intent] [26.86] (Bages)
*Note, Brooch of Deftness did not show up in list.
Chest (sans gems):
  1. [Midnight Chestguard] [301.8] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  2. [Mail of Fevered Pursuit] [273.1] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  3. [Nether Shadow Tunic] [264.2] (BT - Supremus)
  4. [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] [257] (SSC - Karathress)
  5. [Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass] [245.5] (ZA - Jan'Alai)
  6. [Ranger-General's Chestguard] [241.6] (SSC - Hydross)
  7. [Skyshatter Tunic] [238.8] (BT - Illidan)
  8. [Cataclysm Chestplate] [235.9] (TK - Kael'thas)
  9. [Vest of Mounting Assault] [233.4] (BT - Bloodboil)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Midnight Chestguard] [78.56] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  2. [Nether Shadow Tunic] [69.86] (BT - Supremus)
  3. [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] [69.27] (SSC - Karathress)
  4. [Mail of Fevered Pursuit] [66.22] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  5. [Ranger-General's Chestguard] [65.3] (SSC - Hydross)
  6. [Terrorweave Tunic] [63.83] (Doomwalker)
  7. [Cataclysm Chestplate] [63.51] (TK - Kael'thas)
  8. [Skyshatter Tunic] [63.15] (BT - Illidan)
  9. [Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass] [61.52] (ZA - Jan'Alai)
  10. [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Armor] [59.84] (Arena)
  11. [Vest of Mounting Assault] [58.67] (BT - Bloodboil)
*Note, Vestments of Hibernation did not show up in list.
Wrist (sans gems):
  1. [Deadly Cuffs] [153.2] (Hyjal - Rage)
  2. [Insidious Bands] [150.4] (BT - Teron)
  3. [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] [140.46] (Leatherworking - BoP pattern/BoE Item from BT)
  4. [Master Assassin Wristwraps] [139.5] (Badges)
  5. [Wraps of Precise Flight] [137.8] (BT - Supremus)
  6. [Swiftstrike Bracers] [134.76] (Leatherworking - BoP pattern/BoE Item from BT)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Deadly Cuffs] [39.23] (Hyjal - Rage)
  2. [Insidious Bands] [39.23] (BT - Teron)
  3. [Master Assassin Wristwraps] [36.53] (Badges)
  4. [Wraps of Precise Flight] [33.32] (BT - Supremus)
  5. [Vambraces of Ending] [31.3] (TK - Solarian)
*Note, leatherworking items are not showing up in list.
Hands (sans gems):
  1. [Gloves of the Searing Grip] [197.66] (TK - Al'ar) - May be grossly overvalued due to my expertise weighting
  2. [Grips of Damnation] [189.66] (BT - Reliquary)
  3. [Fists of Mukoa] [184.76] (BT - Naj'entus)
  4. [Grips of Deftness] [173.2] (Karazhan Trash)
  5. [Skyshatter Grips] [170.9] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  6. [Trickster's Stickyfingers] [167.6] (Badges)
  7. [Liar's Tongue Gloves] [163.8] (Magtheridon)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Grips of Damnation] [54.88] (BT - Reliquary)
  2. [Fists of Mukoa] [53.94] (BT - Naj'entus)
  3. [Trickster's Stickyfingers] [47.1] (Badges)
  4. [Gauntlets of Sniping] [44.49] (Badges)
  5. [Skyshatter Grips] [44.19] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  6. [Liar's Tongue Gloves] [43.95] (Magtheridon)
  7. [Gloves of the Searing Grip] [42.92] (TK - Al'ar)
*Note, the variance here is huge compared to other items. Mainly due to the presense of weapon expertise on some items, in combination with epic gem slots. I'm not sure where Gloves of the Searing grip should actually fall.
Waist (sans gems):
  1. [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] [253.2] (SSC - Vashj)
  2. [Boneweave Girdle] [222.6] (BT - Reliquary)
  3. [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] [210.1] (Hyjal - Anetheron)
  4. [Bladeangel's Money Belt] [191.26] (ZA - Nalorakk)
  5. [Shadow-walker's Cord] [189.66] (BT - Akama)
  6. [Belt of Deep Shadow] [188.4] (Leatherworking - BoP pattern/BoE Item from SSC/TK)
  7. [Valestalker Girdle] [187.38] (Hyjal - Kaz'rogal)
  8. [Waistguard of the Great Beast] [178.9] (Badges)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] [58.8] (SSC - Vashj)
  2. [Boneweave Girdle] [55.72] (BT - Reliquary)
  3. [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] [55.23] (Hyjal - Anetheron)
  4. [Shadow-walker's Cord] [54.88] (BT - Akama)
  5. [Valestalker Girdle] [54.29] (Hyjal - Kaz'rogal)
  6. [Bladeangel's Money Belt] [49.16] (ZA - Nalorakk)
  7. [Waistguard of the Great Beast] [48.25] (Badges)
*Note, leatherworking items are not showing up in list.
Legs (sans gems):
  1. [Bow-stitched Leggings] [278.6] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  2. [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons] [258.2] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  3. [Leggings of Murderous Intent] [257.7] (TK - Kael'thas)
  4. [Skyshatter Pants] [238.2] (BT - Council)
  5. [Shallow-grave Trousers] [231.1] (Badges)
  6. [Skulker's Greaves] [220] (Karazhan - Netherspite)
  7. [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman] [219.1] (Kazzak)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Bow-stitched Leggings] [74.25] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  2. [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons] [64] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  3. [Leggings of Murderous Intent] [63.84] (TK - Kael'thas)
  4. [Shallow-grave Trousers] [63.56] (Badges)
  5. [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman] [63.05] (Kazzak)
  6. [Skulker's Greaves] [59.64] (Karazhan - Netherspite)
  7. [Skyshatter Pants] [238.2] (BT - Council)
Feet (sans gems):
  1. [Shadowmaster's Boots] [208.2] (BT - Shahraz)
  2. [Softstep Boots of Tracking] [206] (BT - Teron)
  3. [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] [183.7] (Badges)
  4. [Quickstrider Moccasins] [174.9] (Hyjal - Anetheron)
  5. [Cobra-Lash Boots] [169.8] (SSC - Vashj)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Shadowmaster's Boots] [55.61] (BT - Shahraz)
  2. [Softstep Boots of Tracking] [51.54] (BT - Teron)
  3. [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] [49.19] (Badges)
  4. [Quickstrider Moccasins] [46.65] (Hyjal - Anetheron)
  5. [Cobra-Lash Boots] [45.25] (SSC - Vashj)
Finger (Loot Rank):
  1. [Signet of Primal Wrath] [152.48] (ZA - 3rd Chest)
  2. [Stormrage Signet Ring] [149.88] (BT - Illidan)
  3. [Band of the Ranger-General] [142.6] (TK - Kael'thas)
  4. [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring] [141.2] (BT - Bloodboil)
  5. [Ring of Deceitful Intent] [132.9] (BT - Akama)
  6. [Ring of Lethality] [126] (SSC - Hydross)
  7. [Band of the Eternal Champion] [123.7] (Hyjal - Exalted rep)

Maxdps:
  1. [Signet of Primal Wrath] [38.14] (ZA - 3rd Chest)
  2. [Stormrage Signet Ring] [37.38] (BT - Illidan)
  3. [Band of the Eternal Champion] [37.22] (Hyjal - Exalted rep)
  4. [Band of Devastation] [36.04] (BT Trash)
  5. [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring] [35.78] (BT - Bloodboil)
  6. [Band of the Ranger-General] [34.78] (TK - Kael'thas)
  7. [Ring of Deceitful Intent] [32.02] (BT - Akama)
  8. [Ring of Lethality] [31.25] (SSC - Hydross)
*Note, Band of the Eternal Champion does not have its proc taken into account for Loot Rank, so is much lower there.

Maxdps does seem to model it however, as it has a much higher ranking compared to the non proc version before it. Band of Devastation did not appear in the Loot Rank list.
Back (sans gems):
  1. [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] [148.6] (BT - Teron)
  2. [Thalassian Wildercloak] [126.8] (TK - Kael'thas)
  3. [Dory's Embrace] [124.16] (Badges)
  4. [Black-Iron Battlecloak] [120] (Doomwalker)
  5. [Cloak of Darkness] [118.1] (Karazhan rep pattern, BoE cloak)
  6. [Razor-Scale Battlecloak] [117.4] (SSC - Morogrim)
  7. [Vengeance Wrap] [114.8] (Tailoring - World Drop BoE)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] [36.87] (BT - Teron)
  2. [Cloak of Fiends] [36.44] (ZA - Chest drop - Not sure which chest)
  3. [Vengeance Wrap] [31.81] (Tailoring - World Drop BoE)
  4. [Thalassian Wildercloak] [31.59] (TK - Kael'thas)
  5. [Cloak of Darkness] [31.12] (Karazhan rep pattern, BoE cloak)
  6. [Black-Iron Battlecloak] [30.74] (Doomwalker)
  7. [Dory's Embrace] [30.37] (Badges)

Last edited by Unaz : 12/31/07 at 5:47 PM.
#5608SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Kahdrick
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik View Post
I actually disagree with spamming LHW, it heals for so little over what you get hit for even with SR up. I would rather take my chances with my combined dodge/block/parry/miss in a raid setting and let the healers do that job instead.
If I'm pulling aggro on a boss fight, you're right, I wouldn't be spamming LHW - I'd be /praying. On a heroic trash mob, LHW is likely to actually go off in between their hits on me, and I'd avoid spell knockback. I find it more effective than regular HW for that reason, and it helps to keep me up while the healer switches healing targets. I PUG a lot; I don't like to assume that the healer is good/aware/responsive.

edit: doh... grammar.

Last edited by Kahdrick : 12/13/07 at 6:36 PM.
#5609SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Something seems very wrong and I don't think its the site.

Yip. 299 crit. Apologies heh

edited old post.
#5610SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Unaz View Post
I know that a lot of you prefer to run a sim based on gear changes, which may effect a few items, but I'm fairly comfortable with generating a list and going by that, and hopefully this will help others as well.
Everything you just listed in that huge post is fully explained in the OP for people to do on their own.
#5611SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Polar
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I checked out that Loot Rank site just now. It will be a nice replacement for Thottbot and Lootzor (which has long since ceased being useful) if they can get the bugs fixed. (Specifically, haste rating and expertise rating are definitely not working properly at the moment.) I still don't get the seeming insistence these types of sites have with "normalizing" the scores. If they would just show me what the item would be scored based on my values, it would make it a lot easier to realize when scores for specific items are bugged in some way. Frankly, I hope Wowhead comes out with something soon that ends this problem once and for all.
Hi Rob,

Loot Rank has been up for around 1 week now and we have fixed the expertise rating and haste rating calculations. We do not normalize the scores since it is such normalizing tends to confuse rather than help (and also allows for easier checking of score accuracy).

Polar
Lootrank author
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Disq: I feel that, due to a general trend towards good gear suggestions, this site could be really useful. In the areas where it fails, I'd rather provide constructive feedback than write it off as unreliable. In any event, I'll still be using Yo's to dream up and test hare brained new gear combos -- it's an uncanny resource.
I absolutely agree and that's why I've written a detailed explanation of every problematic area I've found in his forums where he provides the formulas. I *want* that site to succeed, because I like the combination of maximizing dps and providing gear to help do that in the same place. But, in its current incarnation, it doesn't do that.

I don't just complain, I've done my best to help the site author fix the problems. It's in his court now. I hope for all of our sakes that he does so.

It's the same that I've done with each sim or calculator where I've been able to see the code -

Pater's
Mine
Friedrick's
Yo!'s
Enshamulator (I forgot the author's name)
an Excel based on that's faded into obscurity.

I really do try to help, and put effort into it. I know my critiques seem harsh, but after going through my 7th simulator now, and finding some of the same issues, but in this case worse, than in the previous 6, I don't have the effort left in me to sugar coat my critiques. That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the authors' efforts immensely. Having made one of these myself, and not even building the functional and pretty front end that enshamulator, Yo!'s, or maxdps's does, I can really appreciate how hard these people work on them.

Originally Posted by Polar View Post
Hi Rob,

Loot Rank has been up for around 1 week now and we have fixed the expertise rating and haste rating calculations. We do not normalize the scores since it is such normalizing tends to confuse rather than help (and also allows for easier checking of score accuracy).

Polar
Lootrank author
I really like the site and have my personal stats bookmarked (yay for querystrings instead of post-data forms!)

Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Hit rating does not support faster weapons without cooldown due to fact that WF is normalised by flat proc rate. Meaning it will be equal for all speeds without cooldown. The reason why slow weapons still pull ahead is SS.
This makes a lot of sense, thank you.
#5613SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lethnon
Just looking over the first post. In short, it says:

[Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]
97.5 DPS (MH: x9.03 = 880.4) (OH: x3.70 = 360.75)
+27 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10. (x1.4 = 14)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19. (x2 = 38)
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30. (x1 = 30)
Total MH EP = 962.4
Total OH EP = 442.75

[Netherbane]
96.5 DPS (MH: x9.03 = 871.4) (OH: x3.7 = 357)
+25 Agility (x2 = 50)
+21 Stamina
Equip: Increases attack power by 40. (x1 = 40)
Total MH EP = 961.4
Total OH EP = 447.05

Comparing the two weapons we can see that the difference in the MH for each weapon is relatively minor with a 1 EP difference, but in the OH the Netherbane performs better with a 5 EP difference.

And...

OH = [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] > [Fury] > [Fool's Bane] > [The Decapitator] > [Runic Hammer] > epic dagger or anything else faster than 2.4


So if [Netherbane] outperforms [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] as a OH, why isn't it listed in the choice OH section? I assume this was a simple oversight, so I thought I would bring it up.




Move along citizens, nothing else to see here.
#5614SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lethnon
Originally Posted by Polar View Post
Hi Rob,

Loot Rank has been up for around 1 week now and we have fixed the expertise rating and haste rating calculations. We do not normalize the scores since it is such normalizing tends to confuse rather than help (and also allows for easier checking of score accuracy).

Polar
Lootrank author
Finally looked at the site. I think it looks great!

Two points to try to help out:

1 - can there be an option for limiting gear to a certain armor type? I try to stick with mail when possible (ducks from the pro-leather based comments) and removing leather options would be nice.

2 - I notice it crashes it when you replace numbers you don't need in the stats by using the space bar to clear them. I had to go back and delete the space in order to get the list. Just FYI for bug fixing (or anyone else who tried using it but crashed like I did)
#5615SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Lethnon View Post
So if [Netherbane] outperforms [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] as a OH, why isn't it listed in the choice OH section? I assume this was a simple oversight, so I thought I would bring it up.
It's highly dependant on your stat weights honestly. I did the numbers for my weights, and the Merc glad was higher by a few points. Not to mention, I think he just listed items that were attainable pre-t5 zones, as all of those are either Kara, Arena, ZA, or crafted.
#5616SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Daagar
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
I absolutely agree and that's why I've written a detailed explanation of every problematic area I've found in his forums where he provides the formulas. I *want* that site to succeed, because I like the combination of maximizing dps and providing gear to help do that in the same place. But, in its current incarnation, it doesn't do that.

I don't just complain, I've done my best to help the site author fix the problems. It's in his court now. I hope for all of our sakes that he does so.
I checked the forums over on maxdps.com. Disquette provided the exact kind of bug reports that any developer would want, and though he even apologizes there for being 'harsh' he certainly isn't - he's just factual. And to the site's credit, it appears Nuuga is actively trying to act on all the suggestions that Disquette made. So much ado about nothing here I think.

Much appreciation to both Nuuga and Disquette for hashing it all out. As great as Yo's sim/Loot Rank are, as a casual player maxdps.com is great for a stuff-in-my-stats-and-get-suggestions out without needing to do a lot of leg work (ie., yes I'm lazy).
#5617SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Lethnon View Post
So if [Netherbane] outperforms [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] as a OH, why isn't it listed in the choice OH section? I assume this was a simple oversight, so I thought I would bring it up.
Its not listed because that section on Offhands was intended to tell people where they could quickly pick one up and compare them, the idea was not to list each and every single OH. It was one of the original portions of the post that was trying to inform people to use slow weapons.
#5618SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lethnon
Ahh. Makes sense
#5619SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0nuga
Hey guys,

I'm the author of MaxDPS.com and just wanted to let you know that the page is in beta. I'm working very hard trying to make it as accurate as possible, and I realize that peer review is the only way to do so. I'm willing to open up any part of my code if it will help the site become more accurate. If you're willing to help (As Disquette has done, thanks!) - rather than muddle up this thread/forum, feel free to drop me a line or post on the forum on my site.

To respond to one thing in particular that was posted:

MaxDps 'values' put the [Brooch of Deftness] at 46.5

And the [Choker of Endless Nightmares] at 42.51
He doesn't say how he uses expertise. I have no doubt he doesn't use it correctly. Don't pay attention to crazy things like that. By the way, i use the Brooch of Deftness - it's nothing personal I have against expertise (I'm at 56 rating = 14 expertise atm). I would love to upgrade to the supremus neck, but our guild has a huge backlog on them and I'm just a casual.

There ya go toots, another good example of bad gear ranking from the site.
I had an error in the code that was using expertise rating as expertise percentage. This has been fixed (again thanks to Disquette).

As you can see, I'm constantly working on the site trying to make things better. But as it is in Beta, please use at your own risk. I'm trying to help, not harm, the community.
#5620SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Everything you just listed in that huge post is fully explained in the OP for people to do on their own.
The first post has ranked gear compared to ranked gear with only epic gems?

I was bored so I posted it in case people found it useful.
#5621SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Meli
Hello

First of all escuse my english thats not very good. I'm french, so I'll try to make my best.
Thanks for this tread that I find very interesting.

I couldn't read the whole tread because there are to many pages and it'll take me to much time.

I have a Shaman as you can suppose. With my guild, we have clean SSC and we are in front of kael'thas that (I think) will be down soon.
So I've begin to look at item that are dropped in BT and Hijal.

My shaman is currently (unbuff) :
1592 AP
30,01% crit
112 hit

The most interesting items in BT/Hijal has a lot of crit/agi but not a lot of AP/force or hit in comparaison with T6.

My question is: Does it exist a cap crit or is crit/agi always so interresting when you have a lot of it? Have we to consider crit as < than 2EP after a specific value?
I'm surprised that force/AP as not a higher value after the 2.3 that make increase the horion damage with the AP. Could you explain?


Sorry if the aswers are somewhere in the thread and thank a lot for aswering.
#5622SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0xkaziex
Hello Everyone!

I am a first time poster, and knowing how things are done around here ill get right to the point.

For quite some time i have used the information on this thread as a form of refference, at best a very solid base to maximize what I do as an enhancement shaman.

I have found that while there is a lot of mathematics that have been shown here, there are things that dont translate very well to actual practice.

My main question is regarding Hit Rating as a whole. I'm not looking for a specific number, because there honestly isn't. To illustrate my point I need to give a bit of an explanation first.

AEP is currently being used as a form of measurement for the potential DPS of particular items, and lately I have begun to question the exact accuracy of these numbers - though admittedly its under a different light.

Im sure like myself, to all experienced ENH shamans, gear upgrades wont often times be about the individual piece vrs another, but instead the synergy between the new gear upgrade and the rest of the set you have created for yourself. Having a PvP set and a PvE set has allowed me to shift some stats and do some testing for myself on how much of an effect hit currently has. I am not here to show crazy math, Im actually here to get you geniuses look into this since you have more tools than i do. Here is the Dilema:

The difference between my PvP set vrs my PvE set stats wise is +50atk, +.4 crit - 35 hit for PvP, where as my PvE is obviously -50atk, -.4, and +35 hit. In short my DPS with my pvp set is lower. Now, to some it may seem obvious but here is the thing:

Per AEP calculations each piece that i replaced (a total of 2) was replaced by a higher AEP value piece, however the overall result was lower DPS.

I realize that hit may become more crucial vrs certain mobs..and there are a few of them, but even stepping down to Gruul's/Mag to do some DPS testing the differential in DPS totals per recount/sw was +- 50 DPS, sometimes a little higher, all in favor of the PvE gear.

For those of you who will have this question, my total + hit with PvE is at 173, where my PvP is at 138.

I have read in numerous places (mind you, as obvious opinions) that a "good" + hit is around 120, but frankly, from what I am seeing in actual results, it seems to me the sweet spot is between 175-200, which i realize it seems like a lot.

Part of my concern is that around the SSC part of progression which is where im currently at; the variety of upgrades offer a crit and a atk power boots but at the entire cost of +hit on the item replacing. Most items at this level have anywhere between 15-18 +hit on them, so its roughly 1% hit (sometimes more sometimes less) that is being lost to items that on paper, due to higher ATk and crit values, have a higher AEP number.

I realize that many of you will ask for examples, and I intend to add 2 items for questioning as soon as i find out how to do links where the item shows. If not ill just write down the stats.

If anyone has noticed, or perhaps is curious to analyze this, please do so. Im sure any/all results will be posted here.

ok here is a good example.

Cataclysm Gauntlets (143.92 AEP) vs Tricksters Stickyfingers (152.20 AEP).

My issue is sitting at 173 +hit (and I have all talented bonuses for +9 total) loosing 1 percent actually lowers my DPS by loosing 25 + hit, where the gain on paper for the tricksters doesnt make up for it (i hope that makes sense).

If i figured out the AEP wrong, please let me know, otherwise - for theory craft, has anyone considered having certain +hit thresholds not necessarily based on gear but perhaps a reflection of the content you are in? or does it seem completely unrelated?

Buffed, passed 2400+ ATK, and over 35 crit (before procs), the 50 gain in atk really doesnt seem to stack up to loosing 1% of hit in what i am seeing.

For actual DPS numbers I can hover between 1050-1130s in DPS In PvE gear, while in -hit gear (PvP) it was between 970-1070's DPS. These results were consistant over 3 weeks of Gruul/Mag.


Apologies if this seems a bit long winded.
#5623SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Using same values comparing to maxdps to Yo's

MAXdps:
Attack Table
Miss: 	            28.0 %
Dodge:                 5 %
Glancing Blow:        25 %
Hit:                17.0 %
Crit:               25.0 %
Yo's
Attack Table
Miss: 	            28.0 %
Dodge:               5.6 %
Glancing Blow:        25 %
Hit:                19.4 %
Crit:               22.0 %
In MAXdps attack table you cant see relative mob level difference.
dodge is 5% instead of 5.6%
crit is 25% instead of Yo's 22%.(what is right value?)

MAXdps dps list.
Current Stats
White DPS: 	239.93
Windfury DPS: 	229.23
Stormstrike DPS: 75.10
Earth Shock DPS: 50.91
Flame Shock DPS: 60.11
Total DPS: 	655.27
Yo's
Current Stats
White DPS:      237
Windfury DPS: 	178
Stormstrike DPS: 68
Shocks DPS:     104
Total DPS:      588
White damage look almoust perfect(higher dodge% and lower crit% put these numbers par)
Windfury damage is way too high. Almoust +30% too high.
Stormstrike damage look almoust OK.
Shocks damage is good. Cant say how MAXdps value SS debuff.
#5624SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by xkaziex View Post
lots of text

I fail to see how you can be doing less DPS with 50 ap .4 crit vs 35 hit, and I really think Gruul/Mag are horrible fights to cite for testing. There are a ton of elements to DPS like raid/group composition, boss abilities, and buffs. With such a small sample size (3 may seem like a lot but it is pretty insignificant) and I find it very difficult to believe that 1% hit makes a 5% damage difference.

As you progress through content your hit drops, I was at ~200 hit rating during Gruul/Mag(THANKS SEBUDAI), 150 through SSC/TK, and to my current 110(which will be back up to 150 RNG willing). Many, many people have came here and had revelations about how insignificant hit is, myself included, it is best to embrace countless hours of work and simulations instead of fighting based on a very minimal sample size on very random fights.
#5625SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
I keep forgetting to ask one addition to Yo simulator -- could you add 4-set bonus of Arena set (9 sec SS) to it? Also does anyone know if Ashtongue trinket has any cooldown to prevent back to back SS with 9 seconds?
#5626SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
I keep forgetting to ask one addition to Yo simulator -- could you add 4-set bonus of Arena set (9 sec SS) to it? Also does anyone know if Ashtongue trinket has any cooldown to prevent back to back SS with 9 seconds?
#5627SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yo!, are you using the same PPM for Executioner as for Mongoose?

I did a lot of short run sims this morning trying to figure out if I wanted Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner with my new weapon setup (Syphon/Tide) and was showing Executioner/Mongoose as about equal with Mongoose/Mongoose, but Executioner/Executioner was a 10-20 DPS drop.
#5628SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
xkaziex
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I fail to see how you can be doing less DPS with 50 ap .4 crit vs 35 hit, and I really think Gruul/Mag are horrible fights to cite for testing. There are a ton of elements to DPS like raid/group composition, boss abilities, and buffs. With such a small sample size (3 may seem like a lot but it is pretty insignificant) and I find it very difficult to believe that 1% hit makes a 5% damage difference.

As you progress through content your hit drops, I was at ~200 hit rating during Gruul/Mag(THANKS SEBUDAI), 150 through SSC/TK, and to my current 110(which will be back up to 150 RNG willing). Many, many people have came here and had revelations about how insignificant hit is, myself included, it is best to embrace countless hours of work and simulations instead of fighting based on a very minimal sample size on very random fights.
Well, I dont say this to be argumentative so please dont take it that way. Considering i do the comparison vrs myself, its easier to compare, at the same time, because I am the raid leader, these past 3 weeks ive made sure that i had nothing else to do but DPS (not choice really in gruul) during those fights. Also, keeping in mind that our roster is static, farmed content (meaning people are up always putting down the same debuffs), and tracking my own meters for self performance...these 2 fights are actually good indicators for DPS. They may vary within each fight, which i expect, but not on back to back performances when i use different gear.

Your response again, somewhat illustrates the problem that im talking about. Yo's simulator is awesome, but assumes a certain controlled environment that is very difficult to achieve. No one works like a computer so peoples ability to adjust, overall gameplay (meaning how they usually play in general) and reaction times are going to come into play. This is why i dont compare myself to other enh shammans when im trying to determine my own outcomes, instead I do it agasint myself since i will have a higher consistancy between fights.

Gruul is simply a melee fight for me, nothing else to do. Mag past the channelers is the same thing, with no cube assignements you just sit there and DPS - (needless to say i reset my own meters when fighting gruul.

It would be different if i was discussing dmg totals, but instead its dps which if you can sustain for more than 2 minutes and not running out of resources, its likely you can maintain that for quite a while.

Again, sorry if this comes off as being argumentative, i just am of the opinion that you cant draw accurate parallels between a simulator and actual practice. (will never deny is a damn useful tool though)


I will admit though - it is possible that there is a relation to how much atk/crit total you need to have to overlap certain potential DPS drawbacks. Not talking directly like 50atk vrs x amount of hit, but more so.. if you have 1500 atk (for instance) that going +-25 hit doesnt make a huge difference, where as doing the same with say 1100 atk will. I hope that makes sense.

Last edited by xkaziex : 12/14/07 at 11:10 AM.
#5629SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Gruul is a terrible test fight. Even if all you do is dps, with all that running, avoiding cave ins, trying to stay below the second tank, you're never going to be doing your best.

You want to test your DPS, go to the bear boss in ZA, go to Kara and beat on Attumen. High armor, high health, pretty much tank & spank. A big sample set smooths out strings of luck.

By the by, I'm down to 63 hit rating, 28% crit, 1464 AP. JUST NOW is hit rating approaching the value of crit rating on Yo's (1.58 vs 1.64). I miss all the time and my rogues laugh at me. The ones who out damage me, anyway.
#5630SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mox
Originally Posted by rava View Post
As you progress through content your hit drops, I was at ~200 hit rating during Gruul/Mag(THANKS SEBUDAI), 150 through SSC/TK, and to my current 110(which will be back up to 150 RNG willing).
Yeah the T5 > T6 lvl gear transition is when your hit gets hammered by loot thats clearly itemised for hunters, it's not really until the very end of T6 that you can get the best loot (aka leather *sigh*) that has alot of +hit on it.

Soon as Grips of Damnation finally drop I'll get them + the swiftstrike shoulders to replace my 2 pieces of T6, that'll put me around 150 hit too, which imo I would never go below.

[e] Grr just realised the shoulders are BoP LWer.. thought they were same as the bracers .. Oh well that screws that plan guess I'll stick with the T6!

Last edited by Mox : 12/14/07 at 2:11 PM.
#5631SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Areus
Malan: From what Yo! posted earlier I believe he said the Executioner was the same procrate as Mongoose.

From my own experiance with +hit, I run around 90HR+talents, its nice to have, but only if you dont sacrifice anything else to get it. You will almost ALWAYS see better returns when adding AP/Crit/Armor pen to your gear. From the melee group that my guild runs, we are ussually the top5 for damage and I fall in there under the rogues right with the furywar and retpally and I miss a good percent of the time. If the gear would allow me to get more +hit I have no doubt that enh shaman would own on damage.

Another good baseline for DPS/Damage is if your guild is Morogrim if your guiild is still running SSC. While the water tombing can get annoying at times, it is a pretty static tank and spank type of fight that can allow for gear comparissons week-to-week if you are keeping logs of your damage done.
#5632SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Yeah the T5 > T6 lvl gear transition is when your hit gets hammered by loot thats clearly itemised for hunters, it's not really until the very end of T6 that you can get the best loot (aka leather *sigh*) that has alot of +hit on it.

Soon as Grips of Damnation finally drop I'll get them + the swiftstrike shoulders to replace my 2 pieces of T6, that'll put me around 150 hit too, which imo I would never go below.
I'm gearing up into T6 items, and i'm following a completely different route than you :P

Im at 55 hit right now and dont really plan to get it a lot higher, and according to all the simulations and theorycrafting thats a GOOD thing. I have 1700 AP and 31.8% crit currently. I do plan to pick up 2~ items with more hit on them but I dont anticipate going much higher than 90-100hit (till sunwell and then its all up in the air).
#5633SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by xkaziex View Post
a lot more words
Without some WWS I'm skeptical to believe that composition is the same, dps time was the same, and that the fight length was the same(read: the longer a fight goes the less dps you do). You may not click on Mag but that doesn't alter the fact that banished time varies and quakes throwing you everywhere. With Gruul you deal with cave ins, slams, silences, and a much higher threat cap; I stand by my original statement that these are terrible fights for DPS samples.

The best thing I can suggest is to run combatlog and upload WWS to get a better idea or look at your DPS in relation to your raid if it is as consistent as you say. Until blizzard puts in a +3 fully debuffed unlimited hp dummy that doesn't move sims are the best because of their controlled environment.
#5634SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Traker View Post
I'm gearing up into T6 items, and i'm following a completely different route than you :P

Im at 55 hit right now and dont really plan to get it a lot higher, and according to all the simulations and theorycrafting thats a GOOD thing. I have 1700 AP and 31.8% crit currently. I do plan to pick up 2~ items with more hit on them but I dont anticipate going much higher than 90-100hit (till sunwell and then its all up in the air).
You should take another look at the gear available, with an optimum set you should have about 160 hit rating(illidan hat, supremus neck, teron cape, arch bp, rage/teron bracers, vengeful weapons, illidan ring, and council trinket). The only things that you can remotely argue are the supremus neck due to the lack of stamina and council trinket due to low armor pen values(I don't want you to tell me why you think different items are better in different slots).
#5635SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by xkaziex View Post
if you have 1500 atk (for instance) that going +-25 hit doesnt make a huge difference, where as doing the same with say 1100 atk will. I hope that makes sense.
Actually, a quick run on the simulator shows that the value of hit rating DECREASES relative to other stats as your attack power decreases. It isn't by much.

Look, just know your stat weights. I can't stress this enough. Knowing how much each stat is worth compared to others allows you to quickly evaluate gear, find out which upgrades offer the biggest bang for the DKP and not waste your time grinding useless stuff.

Being an Enhancer is easy. If a piece is an upgrade, it's an upgrade. There's no magic levels to maintain. No need to shift gems around. Just know your stat levels and you're good to go.
#5636SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Skwat
chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta

Here you get 1900+ AP and 207HR, you may find better i think, but those are pretty awesome stats.

PS : and yeah, that's a lot of leather stuff :|

Last edited by Skwat : 12/14/07 at 6:41 PM.
#5637SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Skwat View Post
chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta

Here you get 1900+ AP and 207HR, you may find better i think, but those are pretty awesome stats.

PS : and yeah, that's a lot of leather stuff :|
Why are you cluttering this thread with that garbage? Big grats, you can put items on a character sheet. You have no haste, eckspertise, armor penetration, terrible crit, and you're sub'd in elemental(wtf@call of thunder?).
#5638SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mox
Originally Posted by Traker View Post
I'm gearing up into T6 items, and i'm following a completely different route than you :P

Im at 55 hit right now and dont really plan to get it a lot higher, and according to all the simulations and theorycrafting thats a GOOD thing. I have 1700 AP and 31.8% crit currently. I do plan to pick up 2~ items with more hit on them but I dont anticipate going much higher than 90-100hit (till sunwell and then its all up in the air).
Well, you can't NOT get 100+ hit rating if you are getting the best shaman gear available...

I'm at (with kings) 1866 AP/34.18% crit/19.91% hit/301 AI, with procs active I'm riding 3k+ AP/40% crit in raids... at that point hitting becomes ALOT more valuable to me than an extra 20 or 30 AP that I could have had from other gear choices.

Last edited by Mox : 12/15/07 at 12:57 PM.
#5639SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skwat
Originally Posted by rava View Post
Why are you cluttering this thread with that garbage? Big grats, you can put items on a character sheet. You have no haste, eckspertise, armor penetration, terrible crit, and you're sub'd in elemental(wtf@call of thunder?).
I may be wrong, but the discussion was about getting more AP or Hit, so my point was just to get both if you want to. Of course you won't be able to have everything. I wasn't here to tell you what is the best stuff.
And for the template, it was just a test. I read this topic and i know that enh/resto is still the best template, but again it was not what i wanted to talk about.
Sorry for that poor reply, won't happen again.
#5640SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
Sorry Mox but you can get a lot of hit rating with the best gear avaible. Just check that profile.

1828 AP, 182 HR, 35 ExR, 32.6% CR, 252 ArP and 2.35% Haste

Low Hit Assumption is true for starting karazhan up to ~ mid T6 content, until you can get your hands on the "rogue" gear. There's hit allmost everywhere.

You could swap [Madness of the Betrayer] for [Berserker's Call], but i don't think there are more real upgrades avaible, crafted shoulders and bracer with haste can only be decent sidegrades.
#5641SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
Sorry Mox but you can get a lot of hit rating with the best gear avaible. Just check that profile.

1828 AP, 182 HR, 35 ExR, 32.6% CR, 252 ArP and 2.35% Haste

Low Hit Assumption is true for starting karazhan up to ~ mid T6 content, until you can get your hands on the "rogue" gear. There's hit allmost everywhere.

You could swap [Madness of the Betrayer] for [Berserker's Call], but i don't think there are more real upgrades avaible, crafted shoulders and bracer with haste can only be decent sidegrades.
He said can't not, meaning that with the best gear you will have over 100 hit.

@Skwat: Apologies, but to me it was someone I've never seen linking a ctprofile of a shaman with t6 equiv gear when the discussion was about dropping AP for Hit. I do realize that you had good intentions, however.
#5642SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Quigon
UR Uptime = [late] \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100[/late]
to
UR Uptime = [late] \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit\%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100[/late]
Add the x's back into latex
#5643SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by rava View Post
You should take another look at the gear available, with an optimum set you should have about 160 hit rating(illidan hat, supremus neck, teron cape, arch bp, rage/teron bracers, vengeful weapons, illidan ring, and council trinket). The only things that you can remotely argue are the supremus neck due to the lack of stamina and council trinket due to low armor pen values(I don't want you to tell me why you think different items are better in different slots).
A few things about this set;

Most of TBC bosses in this game have major raid-wide damage, and with no CloS/Evasion/Sprint/exploits I am very wary of items with zero stamina on them. Thus I don't plan to pick up boneweave girdle/supremus neck until noone else in the raid needs it.
I also don't see myself getting the S3 Arena Weapons for...well...lets just say a long time...
From the simulations ive run at least right now, berserker's call is > madness of the betrayer (I particularly like it because it can be used simultaneously with Shamanistic Rage).

You are right though, I hadn't really looked at the final hit rating of my optimal set but I was just surprised how low my hit had actually fallen (when I replaced my S2 arena weapons with Syphons, and a few other changes) and overlooked a few things ill be picking up even within the immediate future to pump my hit back up.
#5644SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Quigon View Post
LaTeX stuff
You're kidding, that one escape character was the only problem?
#5645SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Problem actually is Malan instead showing formula atm it just shows notice Latex failed.
#5646SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
That's because I haven't fixed it yet.
#5647SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Quigon
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You're kidding, that one escape character was the only problem?
For all of my equations that was the only fix.

Here is your last change:

\text{Windfury} = \left(\begin{array}{l l}\text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\\text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3\end{array}\right)

\text{Windfury} = \left(\begin{array}{l l}\text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\\text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3\end{array}\right)

I guess it parses out carriage returns as /br(reaks). Also your right parenthesis was off, just copy and paste that line.
It gets hectic without white space now, some of my latex codes for the calculus section on armor returns are 3 solid lines of characters. Better here than a PM though - perhaps it'll help another person with latex in their posts.
#5648SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Courn
To miss or not to miss

Hello @ all,


newly signed in, a few minutes ago. Thank you for the information in this thread. Nice work! Frees me from some misunderstandings.

I have a question that bothered me for a while since my raidleader keeps critizing me for missing much too often against the bosses at Karazhan. In his opinion. Needless to say I see it otherwise. ;-)

As far, as I can tell my Recount addon says my miss numbers are reading under 10 % against lvl 70-71 normal mobs when in melee. I'm partially PvP (Veteran-Non-Set-Epics), Arena and T4 equipped and do know, that a DWing Enhancer has a base chance of 24 % of missing.

Further, I can provide some Webstats of our tries against the 'Leerhäscher' at The Eye.
at url: Courn - WWS

So my question in this matter is, does my leader read and interprete his numbers correct?
Is there a magical miss-percentage for any Enhancer out there to keep his misses below?

Some stats unbuffed: AP 1258, hit rating 86, Crit 27,21%

If you need additional information, let me know.

Thanks in advance for your advice!
#5649SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tambard
I have the Cataclysm Helm, and I recently picked up Coif of the Jungle Stalker, which all AEP weights say is about 8AEP better (assuming you're valuing hit at 1.4). But when I put it into simulators, no matter what buffs I add or remove, the Cataclysm Helm comes out ahead. Now, I noticed I don't have a set value for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, so my question is...

According to Rogues I've spoken to, their AEP for the Relentless Earthstorm is 42. And I know that it varies by crit rate, but with an approximation of 30% crit, what would the AEP from this metagem be? I was thinking of taking their AEP and subtracting the 12 AP they get out of the AGI on it and valuing it at 30, but I wasn't sure if anyone had posted a more accurate way to value it that I had missed. Thanks for reading and for the thread as a whole!
#5650SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Scan back a few pages and you'll see the discussion I had about this as well. You need almost a 60-80 EP upgrade before the meta gem can be phased out. Basically if you already have a meta gem helm, there's no way to replace it with a non meta gem helm.

Quigon, thanks mate!
#5676SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Second: Shamans don't gain rage or combo points or energy as a result of hits. We have on-crit procs, but these have a fairly long uptime and we can approach 100% uptime with very little +hit.
That's a mistake, you don't need *any hit* at all for on-crit procs to work because crits are a separate entry in the attack table. If you had 0 hit and 0 hit talents but somehow still had a 30% crit rate, you'd have 100% unleashed rage uptime.
#5677SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xhaos
Quick question about Yo!'s simulator, do I have to add the +3% hit from Nature's Guidance into the hit textbox in addition to the hit I get from hit rating? Or is that 3% already calculated in my character sheet?
#5678SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
You mean 9% Hit (assuming you have 3/3 in NG which would be pretty silly if you didn't). And yes, you have to add it to the % from your gear, its not part of the character sheet.
#5679SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xhaos
My bad, I thought that the Dual Wielding talent listed in the Procs & Stuff tab referred to the Dual Wield specialization, no wonder I was getting absurdly high hit rating values. Thanks for that Malan.
#5680SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Whodi
I'm kind of confused on what I'm doing wrong. From running the Simulators and gearing up the way the posts show, Im still sitting pretty low on the DPS scales. I've seen other parses where you guys are standing strong with the Rogues with 1200 - 1400 DPS, the Highest I've achieved is 1150 on a Tidewalker fight. I'm not using macros for the twist right now, but I am using Disquetes bar and generally have the totems on time about 95 percent of the time. (I will use the macros as it will make my life much easier)

On Kael I pulled 909 DPS where the Top 3 (2 Rogues and a Hunter) pulled around 1200 each. Does that sound right?

here is the parse on the fight if your interested

Whodi - WWS

and here is my armory too

The World of Warcraft Armory

Thx for any help
#5681SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Whodi View Post
On Kael I pulled 909 DPS where the Top 3 (2 Rogues and a Hunter) pulled around 1200 each. Does that sound right?
You lack Sprint and Ranged attacks. The hunter is able to DPS a lot longer on multiple targets than you can. The rogues are able to reduce movement time between targets at various points of the fight. So yah perfectly reasonable.
#5682SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
Not for everyone, I'm one of those people blessed with a main tank and off tanks that have consistently high threat per second so I won't ever pull as long as I have salvation.

I first saw the spec on Jaffnar, don't know where he got it, but it has been nice so far, not a huge increase in shock damage, but it's noticeable sometimes.

I like the 2 points in concussion, as from a pure dps standpoint, after you put the minimum in resto to get 3% hit and totem range, you have two points left over. They can either go into imp lightning shield, anticipation, or slightly more shock damage. I figured shock damage would be the straight dps option, as you get more mileage out of it then LS, and anticipation shouldn't be something to rely on in pve anyway. Or you would be gemming for HP in that case.
#5683SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0evilution
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You lack Sprint and Ranged attacks. The hunter is able to DPS a lot longer on multiple targets than you can. The rogues are able to reduce movement time between targets at various points of the fight. So yah perfectly reasonable.
DPS is calculated by your time in combat (shown as DPS time in WWS), moving between targets only effects your damage done (it may actually hurt dps a bit because i think WWS uses a 5 second rule or something to calculate DPS time). As long as you are attacking from behind, using a shock every time it is available, drinking haste pots if you can, and keeping your totems down (<3 searing totem) there isnt much more you can do to increase your DPS. I can currently hang close to the rogues (just started Hyjal 4/5 and BT 4/9) but i assume this will start to change as they gear up in their T6
#5684SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Whodi View Post
I'm kind of confused on what I'm doing wrong. From running the Simulators and gearing up the way the posts show, Im still sitting pretty low on the DPS scales. I've seen other parses where you guys are standing strong with the Rogues with 1200 - 1400 DPS, the Highest I've achieved is 1150 on a Tidewalker fight. I'm not using macros for the twist right now, but I am using Disquetes bar and generally have the totems on time about 95 percent of the time. (I will use the macros as it will make my life much easier)

On Kael I pulled 909 DPS where the Top 3 (2 Rogues and a Hunter) pulled around 1200 each. Does that sound right?
From a quick glance at your gear I would say if you're getting 1150 dps on tidewalker you are doing a pretty good job, you aren't going to see anywhere near 1400 dps untill you're well into BT/Hyjal gear (Anyone who can do 1400 in T5 I want to see logs of!).

As for Kael It's not exactly a fight that you can compare damage on, theres so many random factors and different class roles combined with periods where you can't even dps, anywhere around 900-1000 dps would be easily acceptable.

So I guess just keep up the good work!
#5685SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by evilution View Post
I can currently hang close to the rogues (just started Hyjal 4/5 and BT 4/9) but i assume this will start to change as they gear up in their T6
Your dps should jump up pretty rapidly once you get your t6 as well, as the itemization there is much better overall then the T5 selection. I started replacing SSC hunter gear with rogue gear almost immediately when we got to Hyjal/BT. Access to the epic gems helps a lot as well with how fast we scale with more STR.
#5686SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Hotiedraenei View Post
My current Neck item is the Haramad's Bargain with the 26 Str and 25 Agi. Should I loose the Strength and Agility to pick up the expertise?
Brooch of Deftness will, at the least, eventually be a higher-DPS item for you (if it isn't already), and it comes with 48 STA instead of 0, so it's a switch I'd make.

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
That's a mistake, you don't need *any hit* at all for on-crit procs to work because crits are a separate entry in the attack table. If you had 0 hit and 0 hit talents but somehow still had a 30% crit rate, you'd have 100% unleashed rage uptime.
To be completely correct, 0 hit from gear is needed if you have the 9% hit from talents, because WF and SS misses cannot crit. (You would still have very good UR uptime with 30% crit and 0 hit from talents, but it might be 95% and not 100%.)

Edit:
Well, nevermind, I just ran it through Yo's sim and apparently you have 99% UR uptime instead of 100%. Could just be a rounding difference. Still, crits from WF and SS do help Flurry uptime. (At 30% crit, Flurry uptime increases from 81% to 83% as you go from 0% to 9% hit.)

Last edited by Rob : 12/17/07 at 2:08 PM.
#5687SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Whodi View Post
On Kael I pulled 909 DPS where the Top 3 (2 Rogues and a Hunter) pulled around 1200 each. Does that sound right?
Your gear is good, your spec is good. Competing with rogues -- who are rightly the best melee dps in the game, and who are also getting 5-15% extra damage from Windfury -- is rough, and shouldn't be your goal. In my experience if you beat a rogue, it's only because you outgear him.

Hitting drums of battle, chain chugging haste pots and totem twisting are good ways to maximize your personal DPS, as is timing your Brooch with haste procs. But none of these is getting you 300+ dps, only T6 can help with that.

My only criticism from that WWS is that your damage % from shocks seems low, and it may be because you weren't using Flame Shock. FS is the BEST shock we have in just about every situation, and using it every other rotation will also open up 2 charges of Stormstrike debuff for your elemental, who will love you for it.
#5688SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ikuturso
Theoretically 100% UR uptime is only possible if all of your hits always crit. With a less than 100% crit rate, there is always the minimal chance of not critting at all for 10 seconds.
#5689SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xargoth
First of all, hi all, im a long time lurker that decided to get out of the shadows .. thank god for this awesome post

I was wondering what addons do you guys use to measure your dps ? atm i use Violation but i dont really like it, it doesn't lists your misses and the different attacks only, pure dps.
#5690SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Originally Posted by Xargoth View Post
First of all, hi all, im a long time lurker that decided to get out of the shadows ..

I was wondering what addons do you guys use to measure your dps ? atm i use Violation but i dont really like it, it doesn't lists your misses and the different attacks only, pure dps.
That should be discussed in the Addon section of these forums.

Also "Search" function gave me a few links on this very same topic.
#5691SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Ikuturso View Post
Theoretically 100% UR uptime is only possible if all of your hits always crit. With a less than 100% crit rate, there is always the minimal chance of not critting at all for 10 seconds.
Ignoring the 2 roll system for SS, your chance of not critting once per 10s is ((1 - (crit precentage /100)) ^ chances to crit) * 100. Assuming 2.6 weapons hasted 75% of the time with Flurry and a wf procrate of ~5s, you're getting 9.4 regular chances to crit plus roughly 6 chances from wf/ss. That's ~15 chances to proc UR in 10s. At 26% crit, the chance is 99%. At 30% crit, the chance drops to 99.5, which in sims usually rounds up to 100%.

Quibbling inside that 1% isn't worth our time.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/17/07 at 5:34 PM.
#5692SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Courn
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Malan et al: I know this is a variation on the dreaded hit rating discussion, but I'm answering it since my raid leader gave me crap about this too.

...

Piece of advice? I notice you're wearing all mail, and have a fast offhand weapon. ... Do I miss the survivability that 13% extra DR would give me? Well, on trash I'm dead in 2 shots, you're dead in 3 shots, and we both live forever if we don't pull threat.

Thank you for backing up my position and arguments in my discussion with my raidleader. Perhaps I should seek another? :-(

I have to thank for your given advice, too. At the moment I'm wearing Mail 1. out of RP-reasons and 2. at rare occasions I have to tank i.e.: 'Blindauge' (Maulgar). Seems to me you are right, Leather is a worthy consideration if it comes to optimizing dps. But I always have to share it with the Rogues.

My fast OH axe ist the next item I hope to get rid of. I'm currently working on it.

Pulling threat? Only over my dead body! ;-)

Last edited by Courn : 12/18/07 at 5:39 AM.
#5693SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Odd (?) formula

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Doing math is hard.
Windfury + Stormstrike = (1-((1-0.01*35)^4.4))*100 = 84.97
Yeah, way off.
This is supposed to be a formula for calculating Flurry uptime with 35% crit. How is it derived?
(1-0.01*35) is obviously the non-crit percentage, but what's the ^4.4 from?

Thanks.
#5694SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Courn View Post
Thank you for backing up my position and arguments in my discussion with my raidleader. Perhaps I should seek another? :-(
Only if he's unreasonable when presented with the math. Interestingly enough, I just picked up an upgrade that increased my hit rating by about 2% and dropped my crit by 1% and my AP by about 10. DPS remains stable (but now I have the T4 set bonus, which my melee group will love).

2. at rare occasions I have to tank i.e.: 'Blindauge' (Maulgar).
Well, don't burn your mail! I keep a shield and a set of high(er) stam & armor gear for "tanking" and arena. Just remember, though: SR and your shield offer a greater benefit than all your other armor combined.

Seems to me you are right, Leather is a worthy consideration if it comes to optimizing dps. But I always have to share it with the Rogues.
True, but if your RL wants you to increase your DPS he's going to have to give you access to gear that will do it. And the fact is that the best mail at the T4 level is worse for enhancement shamans than the best leather. Compare [Maulgar's Warhelm] with [Malefic Mask of the Shadows]. You're talking about a 40+ EP difference (and all from hit rating, no less).

Don't neglect badge rewards -- no need to compete with rogues for that, and it is killer stuff -- and there's good craftables as well. More than half of my current gear is rep rewards, badge rewards, craftables and PvP gear.

My fast OH axe ist the next item I hope to get rid of. I'm currently working on it.
A great replacement is only 18,000 honor away.
#5695SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Ikuturso View Post
Theoretically 100% UR uptime is only possible if all of your hits always crit. With a less than 100% crit rate, there is always the minimal chance of not critting at all for 10 seconds.
I realize this is from yesterday so this is a late reply, but I really feel the need to emphasize just how monumentally wrong this statement is.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if SR reduces damage before or after armor mitigation?
#5696SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I really feel the need to emphasize just how monumentally wrong this statement is.
It isn't wrong, just implausible and not worth mentioning.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if SR reduces damage before or after armor mitigation?
Multiplication is commutative. x% of y % of n is the same as y% of x% of n.
#5697SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
It isn't wrong, just implausible and not worth mentioning.
No, its wrong (as well as being implausible and not worth mentioning). He says that only a crit rate of 100% can produce 100% uptime on SR, which is incorrect. You don't need a crit on every swing to achieve that, you need 1 (or more) crits per 10 second period for 100%. You simply solved for the "close to 100%" solution which we all subscribe to - that a 30% crit rate achieves "good enough" results to call it 100%, but somewhere between 30% and 100% crit you would achieve a full 100% uptime before hitting 100% crit rate.
#5698SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nacht
It's not wrong. Without a 100% crit rate, you can enter combat and get a miss/dodge/parry/glancing blow on your first attack, meaning UR does not proc. It won't proc until that first crit. That means that technically you have not achieved 100% UR uptime. It's a moot point and purely academic. The discussion is pointless. In practice, 30% crit rate or more establishes a constant uptime. That's all that matters.

Can we please consider the case closed now a move on to more valuable discussions, like whether hit rating is better than crit rating? :P
#5699SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Wundorn View Post
This is supposed to be a formula for calculating Flurry uptime with 35% crit. How is it derived?
(1-0.01*35) is obviously the non-crit percentage, but what's the ^4.4 from?
Total number of attacks in the time before Flurry would expire. With only autoattacks you use 3 here (since Flurry lasts for 3 charges), but with a 40% chance of an attack per normal attack it gets bumped to 4.2 (1.4*3=4.2), and I estimated Stormstrike low at a further 0.2 attacks using dual 2.6 speed weapons as an assumption. However the 4.2 number also ignores any potential WF proc overlaps, so I think a value between 4.25 and 4.5 is going to be reasonably accurate for most shamans.

He says that only a crit rate of 100% can produce 100% uptime on SR, which is incorrect.
This is in fact very correct, however the odds of it happening are so ridiculously low that it is really not worth discussing.
#5700SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0frozndevl
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You mean 9% Hit (assuming you have 3/3 in NG which would be pretty silly if you didn't). And yes, you have to add it to the % from your gear, its not part of the character sheet.
This would explain my very high hit EP numbers using YO!'s simulator which went against everything else that has been discussed. Also, my trinkets are currently active use, so I have to manually add the prorated AP into my totals. Does this also need to be done for Blood Fury since I speak orcish?
#5701SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yes, follow the same convention of figuring out the "average" value of the buff if you were to use it ever CD on the dot. The trinket section in the OP has numerous examples.
#5702SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ikuturso
Sorry, I didn't mean to start discussion about 1% differences in UR uptime, but to point out that since we are concerned with various kinds of modelling, we want to be as accurate as possible. Some might feel it's unnecessary nit-picking, but when wording statements, it's better to say e.g. "nearly 100% UR uptime" than "100% UR uptime", as mathematically a pure 100% UR uptime is only possible with 100% crit rate.
#5703SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
I mean if you are constantly picking on that point I think I should have to add that you are still wrong, no matter what.

If you want it academically correct you definitely have to factor in the length of the Fight you are talking about. Once we have that we can calculate how likely it ist that during that time you will have a Streak of Dodge/Misses/Noncrits which must be longer then 10 seconds. This is simply done by multiplying the chance for a noncrit hit * the number of hits you do in 10 seconds. For sake of argument just take 0.7*0.7*0.7 ...
If you have the length of the fight you can then calculate how improbable it is you get anything else then 100% UR uptime...
#5704SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
It wouldn't surprise me if WoW's PRNG is coded to eliminate really "unlucky" streaks and/or really "lucky" streaks, so I think all this discussion would be purely academic in nature.
#5705SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Darkmantle
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
It wouldn't surprise me if WoW's PRNG is coded to eliminate really "unlucky" streaks and/or really "lucky" streaks, so I think all this discussion would be purely academic in nature.
Making it not a random number generator.

Also to make such a system you would have to store all the previous values you got out of the random number generator and look for patterns in them and try to even those out. Which all would take far too much effort when you can just have your random number generator be normal and streaky.

Last edited by Darkmantle : 12/19/07 at 1:22 AM. Reason: Awkward phrasing
#5706SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Yo!
+ Added Expertise support. It's weight is calclulated based on increasing expertise rating by 39 (= 10 Expertise = -2.5% dodge)
+ Changed export string to Enhancer addon as it now supports 3 digits and expertise rating
+ Added DPS value of 1 EP
+ Added Stonebraker's totem option. Proc modelled with 50% on each shock outside 10 sec hidden cooldown

Originally Posted by Karok(EU) View Post
Yo,
Will "use" trinkets be added aswell sometime? Currently they are ignored.
Yes I do understand that replacing on-use procs with averages is not absolutely correct so I do plan to add them, low priority though.
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg View Post
There must be a bug in the UR calculations. Disabling it, only decreases my DPS by a small value. Also it would be nice if the nerfed proc chance of Ashtongue Talisman (50%) could be implemented.
Thanks for reporting the bug - it is high-priority now. Will update talisman too.
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
I keep forgetting to ask one addition to Yo simulator -- could you add 4-set bonus of Arena set (9 sec SS) to it?
It was there long time ago: Procs&Stuff tab -> 4-piecs set bonus -> Earthshaker (PvP)
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yo!, are you using the same PPM for Executioner as for Mongoose?I did a lot of short run sims this morning trying to figure out if I wanted Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner with my new weapon setup (Syphon/Tide) and was showing Executioner/Mongoose as about equal with Mongoose/Mongoose, but Executioner/Executioner was a 10-20 DPS drop.
Yes it uses same PPM. Your result with double Executioner being a drop is expected because Executioner does not stack with itself. So, when two executioner procs "overlap" that part is wasted opposite to when Executioner and Mongoose are up at same time providing synergetic result (crits and flurried strikes on less armor).

Last edited by Yo! : 12/19/07 at 2:13 AM.
#5707SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sancho
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
It wouldn't surprise me if WoW's PRNG is coded to eliminate really "unlucky" streaks and/or really "lucky" streaks, so I think all this discussion would be purely academic in nature.
I've thought about this too, but wouldn't it be very easy to disprove? For example, parse combat logs for instances where there were 6 or more non-crits in a row with a huge dataset and check the next attack for crit rate to see if it is consistant.

Thanks for the update Yo!
#5708SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Darkmantle View Post
Making it not a random number generator.
Any computer generated series is only pseudo-random, this would certainly be a PRNG but just not one you'd want to use for cryptography.
Also to make such a system you would have to store all the previous values you got out of the random number generator and look for patterns in them and try to even those out. Which all would take far too much effort when you can just have your random number generator be normal and streaky.
It wouldn't take too much effort to keep a queue of the last N attack results and if none of them were the desired result, make the next attack a crit and make the next attack after that your desired result.

There is one very good reason I believe the PRNGs in WoW might not be 100% random.
Undesirable quest drop streaks. If there are millions of WoW players and hundreds of quests you do from level 1-70 you are going to have a nontrivial number of people who are in that 0.01% of "super unlucky" on quest item drops. If you have a 20% drop rate for some [Bear Ass] then it will take 5 kills on average to get 1 [Bear Ass] but over 1% of the people are going to kill 20 bears before getting your first [Bear Ass]. (1-.2)^20 = .0115 This is not a desirable outcome for Blizzard, because people get confused and think they are in the wrong spot for the quest, or get frustrated and sick of the game.

Given that Blizzard might be adjusting the drop rates on quest items to prevent "unlucky" streaks, it's not a far leap to wonder if they are adjusting the combat resolution mechanics similarly to prevent an "unlucky" run of misses (which would surely be equally frustrating and occur equally often. If you have a 24% chance to miss, then there's a 0.000000634*100% chance you'll miss 10 times in a row. If a level 20 rogue misses 10 times in a row, the mob he's fighting probably just killed him. How many mobs do you fight while leveling up? How many characters do you have? How many players are there? At some point, Blizzard may say there's only a certain level of unluckiness they are willing to tolerate and take the quest drop algorithm over to combat resolution as well.

Originally Posted by Sancho
I've thought about this too, but wouldn't it be very easy to disprove? For example, parse combat logs for instances where there were 6 or more non-crits in a row with a huge dataset and check the next attack for crit rate to see if it is consistant.
Yeah, I've thought a bit about doing that. It would be doable if you had a big enough data set but there are a lot of complicating factors to deal with (higher crit vs. lower level mobs, lower crit vs. higher level mobs, resilience on PvP targets...) so you'd also need a very clean data set, which makes it slightly tougher. Maybe once WoW's combat log 2.0 is out.

Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
+ Added Expertise support. It's weight is calclulated based on increasing expertise rating by 39 (= 10 Expertise = -2.5% dodge)
+ Changed export string to Enhancer addon as it now supports 3 digits and expertise rating
+ Added DPS value of 1 EP
+ Added Stonebraker's totem option. Proc modelled with 50% on each shock outside 10 sec hidden cooldown
Thanks Yo!

Last edited by Rob : 12/19/07 at 2:05 AM.
#5709SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0lorka
Thank you Yo always a great job !
#5710SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Sancho
Would it be completely unreasonable to assume that AP on yourself would yield similar DPS gains to that of AP on similarly geared melee DPS, and therefore equate it into EP?

I'm talking, of course, about the T4 2-set bonus. If that assumption is at least somewhat accurate, I can't see giving up my bonus anytime soon with my current EP values


Typical group setup:

myself - 26.4 EP
warrior - 26.4 AP
ret pally - 26.4 AP
rogue - 13.2 AP
rogue - 13.2 AP
----------------
total - 105.6 "EP"

Even with the shoulderpads of the stranger (200ish EP) I already have, I can't see replacing my T4 head (225ish) and shoulders (150ish) with anything I have available. With the T5 head (280ish) it's about even. Did any of of you T6 players keep the bonus until MH/BT gear?

I know this has been touched on before, but I'm honestly surprised there isn't more discussion on it. It's really an incredible set bonus.

Last edited by Sancho : 12/19/07 at 2:39 AM.
#5711SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Yo!
Originally Posted by Darkmantle View Post
Making it not a random number generator.

Also to make such a system you would have to store all the previous values you got out of the random number generator and look for patterns in them and try to even those out. Which all would take far too much effort when you can just have your random number generator be normal and streaky.
Store only number of "quest item not dropping" event and if it is more than unwanted xxx - set chance for next item to 1. This adds only 1 hidden field and 1 additional check for event. (Compare it to efficiency nightmare of implementing Darkmoon Card: Wrath). I think that this system is in place in WoW.

+ Fixed bug that prevented Unleashed Rage from being properly switched off when UR radio button was unchecked

Last edited by Yo! : 12/19/07 at 3:07 AM.
#5712SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
Even with the shoulderpads of the stranger (200ish EP) I already have, I can't see replacing my T4 head (225ish) and shoulders (150ish) with anything I have available. With the T5 head (280ish) it's about even. Did any of of you T6 players keep the bonus until MH/BT gear?

I know this has been touched on before, but I'm honestly surprised there isn't more discussion on it. It's really an incredible set bonus.
Yeah, I didn't replace my 2-piece T4 until I got both the T5 helm and Shoulderpads of the Stranger, FWIW. (This was back before there was expertise on the Shoulderpads, though.)
#5713SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sancho
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Yeah, I didn't replace my 2-piece T4 until I got both the T5 helm and Shoulderpads of the Stranger, FWIW. (This was back before there was expertise on the Shoulderpads, though.)
Even taking into account the expertise I still only get about 200 EP for the shoulderpads of the stranger with my EP values ( using only 8 exp rating since I don't have any other expertise rating), which puts those about even with T4 using my T4 2-set "EP value".
#5714SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Atren
Problem for group wide buffs is that AP is not of same value to others as it is for us. In fact we have one of the lowest AP of melee classes imo. So actual value of T4 2-set is very hard to decide, and could use some input from those respective classes: rogues, warriors and retribution paladins.

The reason why other classes values applies to it is that because AP is the base of evaluation for other stats so if for example shamans have highest value for AP then will overvalue the bonus considerably probably.

EDIT:

If you get such buffs and individual boost setups equal then always go for individual boost. This is based on cold reality -- if someone in group dies then group buff value diminishes while individual will not. And well if you die yourself, it wont matter as group buff gone as well.

Last edited by Atren : 12/19/07 at 4:44 AM.
#5715SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mano
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
It wouldn't take too much effort to keep a queue of the last N attack results and if none of them were the desired result, make the next attack a crit and make the next attack after that your desired result.

There is one very good reason I believe the PRNGs in WoW might not be 100% random.
Undesirable quest drop streaks. If there are millions of WoW players and hundreds of quests you do from level 1-70 you are going to have a nontrivial number of people who are in that 0.01% of "super unlucky" on quest item drops. If you have a 20% drop rate for some [Bear Ass] then it will take 5 kills on average to get 1 [Bear Ass] but over 1% of the people are going to kill 20 bears before getting your first [Bear Ass]. (1-.2)^20 = .0115 This is not a desirable outcome for Blizzard, because people get confused and think they are in the wrong spot for the quest, or get frustrated and sick of the game.
AFAIK it's been "proven" that loot generation is at mob creation - i.e. the Blasted Land mobs with the different visible weapons or various boss spawns killed multiple times. Check out the relevant threads in this forum.
Quest drops just aren't visible when you aren't on the quest (see examples of having completed a quest while your party member hasn't yet and him being able to loot your mob corpse).

Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Given that Blizzard might be adjusting the drop rates on quest items to prevent "unlucky" streaks,
Check out thottbot et al for quest drops or "random" drops like BOP enchanting recipes. You'll see people bragging about getting items on the first kill versus people complaining about having killed multiple 100s to 1000s of a creature and not getting the drop.
Look how many write stuff like " I got the first 4 in the first 4 kills, but the fifth/last one took me another 25 kills".

Originally Posted by Rob View Post
it's not a far leap to wonder if they are adjusting the combat resolution mechanics similarly to prevent an "unlucky" run of misses (which would surely be equally frustrating and occur equally often. If you have a 24% chance to miss, then there's a 0.000000634*100% chance you'll miss 10 times in a row. If a level 20 rogue misses 10 times in a row, the mob he's fighting probably just killed him. How many mobs do you fight while leveling up? How many characters do you have? How many players are there? At some point, Blizzard may say there's only a certain level of unluckiness they are willing to tolerate and take the quest drop algorithm over to combat resolution as well.
How many times have you died while leveling up? Without checking why you died?
Let's see: 0.000000634*100% * 9'000'000 players => 63.4% chance that this happened to someONE somewhere (although this math is probably wrong ...). And that someone could have died easily anyway, because he had two mobs on him or something. Or he might have been in a party, got some heals and survived. Another one killed the mob, and his unlucky streak might have been distributed over two mobs (e.g. 5misses on first mob, first mob gets killed by party member. 5 misses on next mob). Or he might have died after the first 5 misses, rezzed, and died again (another 5 misses) and just decided it wasn't his day?

hrm, actually this is pretty much offtopic for this thread.
#5716SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by Mano View Post
AFAIK it's been "proven" that loot generation is at mob creation - i.e. the Blasted Land mobs with the different visible weapons or various boss spawns killed multiple times. Check out the relevant threads in this forum.
They have concluded that it's impossible for us to know when loot is generated, and the old bug where thorns/etc. getting the tap on bosses with loot tables that were different for each faction resulting in no loot proves that at some point, some mobs didn't generate loot on spawn. Also, the Blasted Lands mobs are almost certainly just different mobs with the same name that share a spawn.
#5717SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
1 - (1-0.000000634) ^ (9'000'000 * avarage number of player killed mob)
Chance that 10miss streak has happen least once.
#5718SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mano
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
They have concluded that it's impossible for us to know when loot is generated, and the old bug where thorns/etc. getting the tap on bosses with loot tables that were different for each faction resulting in no loot proves that at some point, some mobs didn't generate loot on spawn.
Hmm, didn't know about that bug. I could easily think that the boss mobs just had two different loot tables associated at their creation and chose which table to use (alliance vs horde) on first damage. (although admittedly this doesn't make much sense from a logical point of view)

Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
Also, the Blasted Lands mobs are almost certainly just different mobs with the same name that share a spawn.
You mean they specifically coded a mob there which could drop [Glowing Brightwood Staff] AND showed it beforehand? Because the first time I heard about these mobs was because someone saw one of them walking around with this huge glowing staff, killed him and got that specific loot.
And they also coded other mob spawns with hardcoded loot table of a grey dagger AND showing it in his hands?

Maybe I'm just sarcastic but I don't think so.

If we really want to go down this way, I'd suggest heading to the appropriate topic (either http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t16988-t...oot+generation or RNG Raiding System: Time for a change? or even another one, I'm not sure which is the better one).

Anyway, until some kind of "proof"* is shown that Blizzard is doctoring with the RNG against extremely lucky/unlucky strings, I won't believe in it.

* And as this is most likely on the order of "proving a negative", I don't think there will be any proof.

Originally Posted by Pitbuller
1 - (1-0.000000634) ^ (9'000'000 * avarage number of player killed mob)
Chance that 10miss streak has happen least once.
yeah, looks much better, but I can't really be bothered to find out what kind of value this gives back But assuming that a player has at least killed 1 mob, this is already above 99.99%. I.e. it's virtually certain it's happened to someone. Poor bastard
#5719SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
+ Added DPS value of 1 EP
With this new feature I'd love for someone to modify Pawn so that it would show the DPS potential of items in the tooltips.

@the above discussion, there are plenty of threads in general that discuss the randomness of loot and they all end up closed by the mods. Lets not get into that here.
#5720SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
With this new feature I'd love for someone to modify Pawn so that it would show the DPS potential of items in the tooltips.
And enhancer as well
#5721SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
I severely doubt Blizz does any monkeying with the RNG -- too many variables to maintain in a system that has to at least have the appearance of being realtime. In fact, I'd guess that all their random numbers are either pre-generated to a list that's read in a loop or done on a separate chip -- true PRNGs are just too processor intensive for a system that must no doubt make millions of random determinations per second.

Of course, systems being what they are the most random thing about ANY MMO RNG will be the order in which the numbers are requested by clients, making the actual distribution of randoms or existence of patterns less meaningful.
#5722SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Guys, lets get off the RNG topic please, its been discussed to death.
#5723SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aximous
By the way Malan, what's about the wiki? You said it's going live on monday but there's no sign of it.
#5724SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Ryley
Edit: Delete this, found the answer I was looking for. Apparently I fail at typing in a whole two words into a search box.

Last edited by Ryley : 12/19/07 at 1:09 PM.
#5725SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yichimet
For those of you wanting to use Yo!'s sim with a Leopard Mac, Apple just put out a developer preview build of Java 6 for Leopard 10.5.1. If my memory serves me, no Java 6 was the problem with the sim and Macs before. I haven't tested it yet, though.
#5726SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Roomooster
Hi guys,

I apologize if this is a bit off topic. However, I can't seem to throw up a new post on this topic since I seem to have restrictions. Just registered to this site so still a little noobish with how this forum operates =P I have browsed through the forums but more or less haven't found much information to what I have been looking for.

I am a raid specced 2/45/14 Enhancement Shaman and fairly geared. Only reason some of my gear is arena gear is because I have not come across or has dropped anything better for me. My guild and I are currently in SSC for only bout 6 days or so in total and we are already 1 boss away from Vashj. Without downtime (due to fights which benefit more through ranged attacks and AOEs) I am usually in the Top 3-5 highest dps in our raids. Much of my itemization and gear/weapon choices are based on this threads theory craft on maximum dps in raids. As far as gear, itemization, weapon selection, etc. are concerned, I am very satisfied with how detailed this thread has come. Furthermore, it has helped me jump from a middle dps'er (in raids with damage meters) to a high dps'er competing with epiced out rogues for first place.

My interest beyond this now is in terms of PVP as enhancement. I have looked in the PVP topic in the other section but it has not answered much of my questions since it pertains to arena team setup. I do have a good amount of PVP experience as I have dueled all classes numorous times. Therefore, I know my class; his strenghts; weaknesses as well as which class I do or do not have an advantage over. I have a fair amount of PVP (2 Vengeful and 2 Merciless pieces) gear with veteran writs, waists, & Vindicator boots. I also have Dory's Ebrace and more soon to come. My 2h weapon of choice is Stormherald and for DW'ing I use Dragonstrike & Fury. As far as weapon choice used in pvp, from my experience it all breaks down to what class I am fighting. For example, for dueling a arms warrior I would use Stormherald and dueling paladins/elem shams I would DW in increase hits and attempt to increase their cast times.

Lets look from a fair dueling 1v1 rather than arenas (regardless of pvp or pve gear)
Classes I am confident in taking down:
1. Mages
2. Other Shamans
3. Paladins
4. Priests
5. Arms / fury Warriors

Classes I currently have problems with (regardless of pvp or pve gear)
1. Rogues (no dought singlely the most OP class against enhance shamans regardless of their gear. A good rogue in mixed blues and greens can still give me a hard time. Providing they keep me stunned)
2. Druids - whether they are feral or moonkin. Feral druids stun off first attack and once you get out he/she switches to bear form. Moonkin = root, kite, HOTs, star/moonfire and my frost shocks are easily removed with them switching in/out of forms.
3. Warlocks - aka. Fear ftw! lol All they need to do is fear, bolt grounding/tremor totems and continue fear and dots. Oh and mind you a felguard is slapping you silly at the same time.
4. Hunters - Frost trap, scatter shot, aimed shot oh and mind you their pet is also nibbling away at you.

Not to say these classes can't be beaten by an enhance shaman; each of these classes have weaknesses as well. Locks/hunters I can take out providing I can get close. Rogues can't survive my burst dmg if they can't keep me stunned. Druids eat Windfury hard if you catch them in normal or cat form. Just majority of the time these classes give me much more difficulty.

Now getting to the point (finally! =P) I am not questioning PVP gear as it is specifically designed by Blizzard for these kind of encounters. There is only so much you can do about stun, fear, etc. I do find however a heavy weakness and I beleive it's really got to do with the types of gems I have socketed. At the moment, all my gear is socketed with +8 strengh and or +4 crit & +4 strength. I realize these are the best gems to socket in PVE but how bout PVP? Past research has told me to stock heavily on resiliance. However, I've beaten a good number of epiced out gladiator/merciless gladiator enhancement shamans and warriors with 400+ resil. Meanwhile I myself only have about 225 resil due to a combination of pve/pvp gear. But I dueled a friend who is a feral druid with tier 4 dps gear in tank form seems to dodge 5 or 6 of 10 melee attacks including Stormstrike/WF. and what normally hits for 800 reg white dmg now hits for 300ish; as well as, dodged or small WF hits. In my PVP gear i currently have 81 hit rating. I swapped out with my PVE gear and upped it to 101 (2handed) to 122 (DW) hit rating and saw a large improvement in the amount of attacks landing. So does that mean I should be stacking on +8 hit rating and +4hit / +4agility gems? Mind you I have already capped the 9% hit rating for DW throught talents (3%) for 2 h. I have the same problem with rogues and hunters but i realize that is due to the high agility and rogue evasion. Furthermore, this brings me to the Mongoose vs. Executioner question as well. I have read on how it works for rogues and fury warriors but very vaguely on enhancement shamans. Should I be enchanting my offhand with executioner and keep mongoose on mainhand? With executioner procing and when i get my S3 leggings, it would total to 1204 ignore armor.


I apologize if this topic has been covered before and I may have missed it. If it has, please direct me to the right place to find it. Your feedback would be greatly appreciated! =) I chose to post on this website because I feel this is the most informative. aka - elitistjerks lol. Please don't reply harshly if you may find these questions kinda noobish, we all go through a learning process sometime =) Thanks in advance!
#5727SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kasi
There is a thread on PVP enhancement over in the PVP forum on this very site. You might want to repost this over there. This forum here is meant for general PVE theorycrafting.

Edit: Here is the link to it:

[Shaman] Enhancement - Partner-/Weapon-type choice, 2v2
#5728SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Aximous View Post
By the way Malan, what's about the wiki? You said it's going live on monday but there's no sign of it.
Yah I thought so too Boe is trying to do a lot at once though.
#5729SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Roomooster
Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
There is a thread on PVP enhancement over in the PVP forum on this very site. You might want to repost this over there. This forum here is meant for general PVE theorycrafting.

Edit: Here is the link to it:

[Shaman] Enhancement - Partner-/Weapon-type choice, 2v2
Thx Kasi
#5730SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Audrix
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
+ Changed export string to Enhancer addon as it now supports 3 digits and expertise rating
I recently installed the addon and been playing with it a bit. Mostly becuase we are working on Kael atm so just wana make right choice on items I should pick before we leave SSC/TK. But my question is how do you export the data string from enhancer. thx
#5731SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Nemaa
Yo!: Thanks for the update, I was waiting for the expertise support for a long time!

However I found a bug in the enhancer string export:
AP:100;CR:206;STR:200;AGI:182;HR:181;HsR:169;IA:031;ExP:335;

Importing this string results in an AP=10, CritRating= 20.6 and so on...
Might be a bug in enhancer though.

[e] MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. Am I right?

Last edited by Nemaa : 12/19/07 at 5:08 PM.
#5732SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Yo!: Thanks for the update, I was waiting for the expertise support for a long time!

However I found a bug in the enhancer string export:
AP:100;CR:206;STR:200;AGI:182;HR:181;HsR:169;IA:031;ExP:335;

Importing this string results in an AP=10, CritRating= 20.6 and so on...
Might be a bug in enhancer though.

[e] MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. Am I right?
Sounds like a problem with how Enhancer imports the data. Shouldn't really matter though...gear comparisons are still valid, all the values are just 10x what they normally would be :P
#5733SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Well, it does matter because I'm pretty sure Enhancer hard-codes the values for certain procs as well as gem slots.
#5734SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Duh...wasn't thinking about those. In any case, it's not hard to go into the Enhancer config and just move the decimals over.
#5735SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
Yo!: Thanks for the update, I was waiting for the expertise support for a long time!

However I found a bug in the enhancer string export:
AP:100;CR:206;STR:200;AGI:182;HR:181;HsR:169;IA:031;ExP:335;

Importing this string results in an AP=10, CritRating= 20.6 and so on...
Might be a bug in enhancer though.

[e] MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. Am I right?
It is not the bug with enhancer it is time gap between us not simultaniously updating utilities.
MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. You are right. EP value is for rating though.
#5736SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
Yo, seems you forgot to set the Ashtongue trinket proc rate to 2.3 values, at least, the Forensic Report gives me a 90% uptime on it Otherwise, great work on the sim, keep it up.
#5737SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Karok(EU)
Confirmed, 88% uptime here, ran a 15k hour sim.
Thanks for the update Yo!

Some really really minor things:

Is 10 shocks/2 minutes realistic? Chain shocking on a static npc (max potential dps) we can asume a near-perfect rotation bearing in mind interference of SS cooldowns) would this number not be closer to ~15 (10 shocks/min as perfect rotation)

Would it be possible to get a visual on the stonebreaker's totem proc rate as you did with the trinkets?

Typos: Procs & stuff tab: "Average number of shocks...

(E): Be gone quote!

Last edited by Karok(EU) : 12/19/07 at 8:47 PM.
#5738SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Shokkina
I have some problems with Yo's simulator

Fist of it all it shows a DPS that is far superior to what i am capable of at the moment. On anetheron(mostly tank and spank fight) i can reach 1500 dps at max(without flask) but the simulator says 1917 DPS.
Also on my first run of the simulator i got negative EP values for both agility and crit. i runned the simulator another time(i forgot on the first run to put executioner instead of mongoos on offhan) and the problem disappeared. Maybe is something that should be looked into(negative values can only come from errors in program i think)
anyway for the difference in expected dps this are the values i put in simulator:
AP 1575
crit 31.38
hit 16.17
haste 4.63
boss armor 2990(6200 - 5xsunder - faerie fire feral. I thought that since you cannot check for armor debuffs you have to input the boss armor after these debuffs. It worked fine before the last update. My fault if this is the problem)
armor pen 287
MH DPS 97.6 speed 2.6
OH DPS 100.2 speed 2.8
spell hit 4(talents + draenei aura)
procs/stuff: dragonstrike, tsunami, relentless earthstorm diamond, stonebreaker totem, 16 shocks in 2 minutes
enchants: Mongoose/Executioner
for buffs: kings, might, shout, mark, leader of the pack, strength of earth, roasted clefthoof(no flask/potions/drums of battle).

I ask this question cause it is getting really hard choosing the right gear at this level and i don't want to need items that i will find not that much useful. Thanks for any reply

Edit: also AEP values give me some questions. In previous runs of the simulator hit rating was always at ~1.6 EP value. Now it says 2.62 a value greater than STR. This is quite strange because would mean that a hit rating gem would be more valuable than a STR gem.

Last edited by Shokkina : 12/19/07 at 7:40 PM.
#5739SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Shokkina View Post
I have some problems with Yo's simulator

Fist of it all it shows a DPS that is far superior to what i am capable of at the moment. On anetheron(mostly tank and spank fight) i can reach 1500 dps at max(without flask) but the simulator says 1917 DPS.
Also on my first run of the simulator i got negative EP values for both agility and crit. i runned the simulator another time(i forgot on the first run to put executioner instead of mongoos on offhan) and the problem disappeared. Maybe is something that should be looked into(negative values can only come from errors in program i think)
anyway for the difference in expected dps this are the values i put in simulator:
AP 1575
crit 31.38
hit 16.17
haste 4.63
boss armor 2990(6200 - 5xsunder - faerie fire feral. I thought that since you cannot check for armor debuffs you have to input the boss armor after these debuffs. It worked fine before the last update. My fault if this is the problem)
armor pen 287
MH DPS 97.6 speed 2.6
OH DPS 100.2 speed 2.8
spell hit 4(talents + draenei aura)
procs/stuff: dragonstrike, tsunami, relentless earthstorm diamond, stonebreaker totem, 16 shocks in 2 minutes
enchants: Mongoose/Executioner
for buffs: kings, might, shout, mark, leader of the pack, strength of earth, roasted clefthoof(no flask/potions/drums of battle).

I ask this question cause it is getting really hard choosing the right gear at this level and i don't want to need items that i will find not that much useful. Thanks for any reply

Edit: also AEP values give me some questions. In previous runs of the simulator hit rating was always at ~1.6 EP value. Now it says 2.62 a value greater than STR. This is quite strange because would mean that a hit rating gem would be more valuable than a STR gem.
The sim seems to give the Dragonstrike proc unrealistic uptime which is a little bit of why your dps is higher in the sim. A few other things, most boss armor (except teron and 1 other boss I'm pretty sure) is 3690 with sunder ff and cor. The sim results vary a lot when calculating stats if I'm remembering right, so it is best to run it multiple times and take an average. I'd review your logs and see if you are getting 16 shocks/min as well.
#5740SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Shokkina
Originally Posted by rava View Post
The sim seems to give the Dragonstrike proc unrealistic uptime which is a little bit of why your dps is higher in the sim. A few other things, most boss armor (except teron and 1 other boss I'm pretty sure) is 3690 with sunder ff and cor. The sim results vary a lot when calculating stats if I'm remembering right, so it is best to run it multiple times and take an average. I'd review your logs and see if you are getting 16 shocks/min as well.
I did another test with 10000 hours. Almost same result. I don't think changing the number of shocks will make a huge difference anyway(i try to time my totem replacements to favor my shock rotation, preferring only stormstrike to a shock in almost any situation)

Oh and i got agility(and crit rating) AP: 0 (yes ZERO). I think that means there is a problem here...

Other strange things on this run:
forensic report: normal strikes(for WF, ss, and white damage): 0
crit strikes for WF and SS: 0.944(that means 94% crit right?)

I still think that is something wrong here...

Anyway thanks for the fast reply

Last edited by Shokkina : 12/19/07 at 8:04 PM.
#5741SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shokkina
Nevermind i realized now that befor my 31.38 crit % where other numbers so i did input something like 2531% crit O_o
What a noob mistake, but in the crit field(since it is short) i did not manage to see thos numbers :|
Sorry for such a noob question then :|
#5742SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yah I was gonna say that it sounded like you put some insanely high values in there someplace.
#5743SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
I was hoping someone could explain to me why upgrading my weapons would be a DPS downgrade, according to Yo!'s sim.

Currently weilding Dragonstrike+Merc Pummeler

According to the sim if I upgraded to 2x Syphon of the Nathrezim, it would be a 14 DPS nerf.

Rising Tide + Syphon is not looking too good either, as a 15 DPS downgrade.

(Yes, I changed the stats gained according for each weapon changed and the Dragonstrike selection on the "Procs & stuff" page.)

I was really looking forward to upgrading my weapons to these, and thought they would really increase my damage "cap" since the rest of my gear isn't too shabby, I thought my weapons were holding me back, but I just don't know why it's a downgrade and not a huge upgrade, does the sim value the dragonstrike proc extremely high or something?
#5744SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Karok(EU)
Due to the large amount of variables there will allways be a small percentage of difference between similar setups and a couple of sim runs (I think)

Have you tried running the same setup with 10.000 hours simulated? And if you have, try do it a couple of times you will probably find there is a small difference each time even tho the hours ran on the exact same gear each time.

(E): Unneeded Quote gone.
#5745SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
does the sim value the dragonstrike proc extremely high or something?
Someone on the previous page just said this to be the case, so that's probably why. (Make sure you are doing 10k hour sims.)
#5746SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Karok(EU) View Post
Due to the large amount of variables there will allways be a small percentage of difference between similar setups and a couple of sim runs (I think)

Have you tried running the same setup with 10.000 hours simulated? And if you have, try do it a couple of times you will probably find there is a small difference each time even tho the hours ran on the exact same gear each time.

(E): Unneeded Quote gone.
I realise that there can be small differences when re-running the sim, but I was expecting to see a large dps increase, but it's a small decrease, if I ran it many times it would fluctuate slightly between 1-10 dps probably, i've never ran a sim as long as 10.000 hours, 2000 takes about 5minutes as it is, but I can't imagine it coming out as an increase.

I guess what the poster above me said could be the culprit, is there any modelling on the Dragonstrike proc that Yo! can update the sim to correct it, so it's not valued so (incorrectly?) high?
#5747SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Karok(EU)
Well, 10k+ is advised for a reason, the longer it runs the bigger the data pool to get the stats from. I would really suggest just running it at 10k or more a couple of times and compare the results. Grab a book/movie or smash some pvp face while waiting for the sim to complete.

Edit: Malan how are the T6 item values comming along? Still missing on the First post ;-)

Last edited by Karok(EU) : 12/19/07 at 11:15 PM.
#5748SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
i've never ran a sim as long as 10.000 hours, 2000 takes about 5minutes as it is,
When I do my personal EP values after getting new gear I run 10x 10,000 hours and then average them. Yah it takes awhile but you get some crazy outliers sometimes if you don't do that. I just run it at work while I'm doing other stuff.
#5749SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
For Yo's! simulator is it recommended to just add Judgement of the XXX (3%crit), Imp hunters Mark, Expose weakness improved + trinketed battleshout to your base character stats?

Then for bloodfrenzy / Imp Sanct aura / ferocious insp just multiply the final dps by 1.03 or 1.035ish(blood frenzy)?

Also is there any suggested way to model bloodlust? 33% haste x 45s/fight duration?
#5750SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
I see, where is 10k advised by the way? I always just did 1k or 2k hours like it says for working out aep values on the sim itself.

Something about the stonebreakers totem too.. you say it is modeled on shocking out of the cooldown (every 10 seconds), but this conflicts with "shocks per 2 minutes", and well, personally I shock everytime it's up, perhaps 2 versions of it would be nice, one for shocking everytime the shock CD is up, the other for every 10 seconds when the stonebreaker is up?

Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
#5751SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Joy
For Yo's! simulator is it recommended to just add Judgement of the XXX (3%crit), Imp hunters Mark, Expose weakness improved + trinketed battleshout to your base character stats?

Then for bloodfrenzy / Imp Sanct aura / ferocious insp just multiply the final dps by 1.03 or 1.035ish(blood frenzy)?

Also is there any suggested way to model bloodlust? 33% haste x 45s/fight duration?
I would suggest adding trinketed Battleshout and Judgement of the XXX manually if these are consistently there for you. I would not add Expose Weakness (inconsistent in uptime). I would add Imp Hunter's Mark if you consistently have it.

For the others you can indeed multiply at the end, but that's only necessary if you want an exact DPS number. (If you do, make sure you get the mob's armor after Sunder/FF/CoR correct.)

There is no good way to model Bloodlust. I would not do what you describe -- you might devalue haste rating.

Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
I see, where is 10k advised by the way? I always just did 1k or 2k hours like it says for working out aep values on the sim itself.

Something about the stonebreakers totem too.. you say it is modeled on shocking out of the cooldown (every 10 seconds), but this conflicts with "shocks per 2 minutes", and well, personally I shock everytime it's up, perhaps 2 versions of it would be nice, one for shocking everytime the shock CD is up, the other for every 10 seconds when the stonebreaker is up?
10k is just the standard we use in this thread. Yo! suggested a while back in it using 10k hours anytime you calculate EPs. 1k is the minimum for somewhat reliable results but will still vary from run to run. 10k is stable from run to run.
Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
You need to add the impact of BoK to your AP and Crit. Since Yo's sim doesn't have fields for STR and AGI, you must add 0.2*STR to AP and AGI/250 to crit %.
#5752SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0alexandertheti
Ok, say i have 3 weapons.

60 dps, 2.5 spd (A)
62 dps, 2.3 spd (B)
85 dps, 1.8 spd (C)


Initially i had been using B/A WF/WF, but when i got C i wasnt quite sure what to do with it. For now its C/A WF/WF, but it seems to do almost identical damage as A/C WF/FT and A/B WF/WF. I've spent a few hours in BG's, dueling, and even grinding on mobs trying to determine which is the better combination. The actual stats on the weapons are moot, as they are almost identical (I would link to what they are, but i'm not at home right now.)

I know WF is supposed to out DPS FT in almost all situations, but even when the weapon is that fast? I had hoped that the large increase in the actual weapon DPS would make up for it, but that doesnt seem to be the case.
#5753SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
WF scales a lot better. All tests done by people who knows their shit in this thread points to WF being the only buff to use on two slow weapons. Epic daggers with FT cannot compete. You can always browse the odd 1-200 pages on this topic or run the tests in Yo!'s sim linked in the OP.
#5754SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Simian LeSinge
ok, I have a lame dull flameworthy question that I'd love a quick and dirty guesstimate answer for:

swords rogue
daggers rogue
mm hunter
bm hunter

Grace of Air or Windfury? (assuming all else is equal)

a) GoA
b) WF
c) who cares?

In TK the other night we discussed this in /party for ages until the MM hunter stated that if I didn't stfu about totems he'd ask to be moved to another party
#5755SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jerem
If you want to please everyone and be the most efficient, twist both GoA and WF.
If you don't want to twist, just pick one totem and stick to it.
The effect of GoA on your hunters depends a lot on the fight, their playstyle, and so on.

You are the only one that has possibly access to the numbers that will help you to determine whether GoA for your entire party will be more DPS than WF for your rogues.
I play a lot (outside of raids) with my guild's hunters and rogues, and I know that, if I took my shaman for a raid, and had a group like the one you listed, I'd use GoA if, for some reason, I didn't feel like twisting.
#5756SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Sebudai
So wait it's you and those four classes in the group? Definitely GoA. Even if one of the rogues was a warrior, I'd probably still drop GoA(assuming I'm not twisting for some reason).
#5757SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by alexandertheti View Post
I know WF is supposed to out DPS FT in almost all situations, but even when the weapon is that fast? I had hoped that the large increase in the actual weapon DPS would make up for it, but that doesnt seem to be the case.
Windfury always outperforms Flametongue on your main hand weapon and you should never have a dagger there. Windfury almost always outperforms Flametongue on your off hand weapon (you'd need huge amounts of AP and a faster-than-1.8s dagger to change that).

I know it says this in the first post you ignored, but weapon speed matters far more than any other factor on a weapon -- a 2.6s weapon in the 60s can, as you've seen, outperform an 80 dps dagger. Don't pick up the dagger and think you can make it work -- let it get sharded.

Weapon choice is one of the most important factors of shaman gearing. You NEED 2.6s or slower weapons, even a 2.4 is gimpy and not worth your time. At your gear level, you want to aim for easy upgrades like Drakefist Hammer, Harvester of Souls, Demonblood Eviscerator, Reflex Blades or the easiest upgrade of all, the S1 one-handers. For ~36 hours of PvP (easily doable by the end of the year) you can have a pair of 91.2 dps 2.6s axes or hammers. Why waste your time testing daggers from Karazhan?

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/20/07 at 10:16 AM. Reason: The Guile of Khoraazi still sucks.
#5758SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0alexandertheti
@Toots

I've read the OP many times through, i just wasnt sure if it still applied when there was that much of a difference in DPS.

As for taking the dagger, guild bank has more shards than it can handle, and the only reason i took it is because everyone else in the raid already had one. No really, even the mage =\ (Same thing with the druid staff from illhoof.) I was just hoping for a really easy upgrade as i took the third healers spot while my already-geared guildmates destroyed karazhan for badges.

Either way, ty. =) I'll still be coming back to these forums, but i'll read a little more before i post something next time.
#5759SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
No that's exactly what the OP says - that FT on a much higher DPS weapon will now outperform WF on a slow weapon with inferior DPS. A 20 DPS upgrade on that dagger with FT will do pretty good. However, a 100 DPS 2.6 and 100 DPS 1.8 will perform best with WF on the 2.6 over FT on the 1.8. If you have lower end wpns an epic dagger upgrade with FT can be a good upgrade, you just have to recognize when to replace it again.
#5760SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Draegan
Armory Links and/or WWS Links

I'm looking for Armory and WWS links for Heroic/T4 Geared enhancement Shamans and T5 Geared enhancement Shamans for comparison.

If anyone could take the time to PM your own links, I'd appreciate it. Thank you in advance.
#5761SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by alexandertheti View Post
I've spent a few hours in BG's, dueling, and even grinding on mobs trying to determine which is the better combination.
Any Boss NPC is going to have a 10% higher resist (or more) rate than anything you just listed here, which makes any "sort of close" comparison go to "Windfury is better".
#5762SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I would suggest adding trinketed Battleshout and Judgement of the XXX manually if these are consistently there for you. I would not add Expose Weakness (inconsistent in uptime). I would add Imp Hunter's Mark if you consistently have it.

For the others you can indeed multiply at the end, but that's only necessary if you want an exact DPS number. (If you do, make sure you get the mob's armor after Sunder/FF/CoR correct.)

There is no good way to model Bloodlust. I would not do what you describe -- you might devalue haste rating.

Yeah I was just wanting to get a bit more accuracy because our last Teron I was over 1700dps while Yo's! sim put me around 1500.
#5763SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Int deserves a small EP value

I think that Int deserves a minimum EP value.

I have been treating Int and Stam as secondary stats for the last month, with the result that I'm picking up more ZA and badge leather gear to replace my mail. (I'm keeping the mail in case Bliz fixes itemization later in some way.) But I've realized that Int does have a quantifiable impact on DPS: It increases spell crit %age.

Therefore, it's easy to see what Int EP should be... But since I don't have the Int-> crit or crit multiplier numbers handy I'll leave it to someone who does.

I'm not sure this will change anything significantly since IIRC shock dps is around 10% of your overall dps in most fights, give or take, but it might make it clearer that a certain mail item was actually not worth "upgrading" to a comparable leather item, for example.
#5764SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Inamorata
Originally Posted by Wundorn View Post
I think that Int deserves a minimum EP value.
A little fast math, probably off by a little but will give you a picture. 80 int = 1% spell crit.
1% spellcrit ~0.5% more shockdamage.(probably less due to flame shock gaining so little)
0.5% more damage from shocks is roughly 0.05% more overall damage.
So you need 20% spellcrit to gain 1% damage. 20% spellcrit = 80*20 = 1600 intellect.
20 melee crit rating will also roughly increase damage by 1%.
If we have 1 Crit rating at 2 aep 1 intellect would be 0.025 (2/80) aep.

Even if my numbers probably is off you can see that intellects value is extremely low and you need 40 intellect to get the same increase in damage as 1 ap.
#5765SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Rob
We get 0.0125% spell crit/1 intellect. (I derived this by comparing the difference in spell crit and intellect between my PvP and PvE sets.) Our spells crit for 150% and not 200%, and the DoT portion of Flame Shock does not crit. With self buffs you've got about 500 +damage/heal, and a base value of 661-696 for Earth Shock which has a 43% coefficient and 377 for the direct damage of Flame Shock with a 15% coefficient for the direct damage. Let's suppose raid buffs take you up to 650 damage/heal. I am too lazy to consider Misery and Scorch so somebody else can do that if they want. If they do, they had better also factor in resists (spells should be two-roll, so a crit spell can be resisted. At least shocks are binary resist so you don't have to worry about partials...)

1% crit would give you an extra 0.01*0.5*((661+696)/2+650*0.43)/12 seconds = 0.005*(678.5+279.5)/12 = 0.399 DPS on Earth Shock and 0.01*0.5*(377+650*.15)/12 seconds = 0.005*(377+97.5)/12 = 0.198 DPS on Flame Shock. Let's call that 0.6 DPS in all for 1% crit. 0.0125% crit/Int*0.6 DPS/1% crit = 0.0075 DPS/Int. If we say 4 AP = 1 DPS then Int gets an EP of 0.03. An item with 40 int gets an extra 1.2 EP.

In other words, we don't really need to take Int into consideration. (It's nice to see that the previous poster, using a different methodology, comes up with a similar solution.)

Last edited by Rob : 12/20/07 at 8:11 PM.
#5766SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
that someone came up with the same solution is simply due to the fact that the value is so small ist does not make any difference. 0.025 / 0.030 is a 20% diversion. ^^ I mean a 20% difference in anything like maybe crit or so would result in anything between 1.6 and 2.4 for crit rating. Thats the sole reason 8)
#5767SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tristan
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
If you are expecting BoK you should run the sim with BoK to get proper numbers.

Yo! has kindly made the values in the import string un-BoKed again for me to use in Enhancer so I can display both with and without BoK.
#5768SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ardonomus
Don't know if you still want WWS parses, regardless, here's two!

Kael + first three in Hyjal
Wow Web Stats

First four in BT
Wow Web Stats

I don't think they'll be up for long though, since we're doing it the easy way with WWS 2.
#5769SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gnus
Do we have a crit cap?
Crit value, when AP became more useful over crit.
Right now i'm thinking what to do - keep +10 CR gems or replace them with 5St+5CR gems.
My unbuffed stats are: 1664 ap, 31.69% crit unbuffed, 116 hit rating.
#5770SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Gnus View Post
Do we have a crit cap?
Crit value, when AP became more useful over crit.
Right now i'm thinking what to do - keep +10 CR gems or replace them with 5St+5CR gems.
My unbuffed stats are: 1664 ap, 31.69% crit unbuffed, 116 hit rating.
We do have a crit cap, but it's so high you'll be very unlikely to reach it, even if you jammed your gear full with crit gems. Iirc the glance rate is 25%, so with capped hit and expertise the crit cap is at 75% for white attacks, and 100% for yellow attacks. With your hit rating that should be roughly 58% for white attacks and 95% for yellow attacks.

Anyway, if you have no access to 10 str gems, you should be gemming your gear with 5str and 5 crit no matter what. You should be getting superior EP from strength.

Last edited by Stopokingme : 12/21/07 at 7:41 AM.
#5771SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gnus
Crit cap for me - when 100% attacks are flurried. Maybe i'm wrong.
Question is about yellow sockets, for example my new T6 shoulders have only yellow sockets, so 10str gems are not good due to socket bonus.
#5772SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jerem
You don't have to go after the socketting bonus if you don't want to.

For T6 shoulders, it boils down to knowing whether 20 STR is better than 13 STR & 10 CR.

I guess it's another way of saying "convert both stats into EP, using the coefficients Yo!'s simulator gave you, and go with the highest EP benefit" ?

The only reason I could see that "forces" you to socket a gem-color that gives you lower EP values would be metagems activation.
#5773SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
You can forget about getting 100% of your attacks flurried, the only real way of that happening is having a 100% crit rate. And yes, replace those 10 crit with 5 str and 5 crit, they're superior. Your gem choices for sockets should always be (if you want socket bonuses that is) Red: 10 str, Yellow: 5 str 5crit, Blue: 5 str 7 sta. The only exception to my knowledge being the jewelcrafting only 12 crit gem, which comes out superior to 10 strength.
#5774SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Razzan
What do you guys think about talon of the phoenix?its a nice weapon and i thought about ''breaking the rules'',so i use it with rising tide for OH.I am satisfied by my DPS its over 1k in most of the boss fights.i use exe/mongoose for that combo,and i would like to know if mongoose x2 is a better enchant for this weapon combo.Thanks in advance.
#5775SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Press009
I have been searching through this thread for a while and I still haven't really seen it mentioned yet. Is there a difference when starting out in a entry lvl raid enviroment, when selecting between the gladiator's axe/mace for MH compared to the glad's MH first wep? Since the stats (EP) are the same, and the only true difference is dmg output/gap on the high and low ends of the wep. Is it just a personal choice of choosing which one I like better or does it make a huge difference in the long run?

Last edited by Press009 : 12/21/07 at 12:21 PM.
#5776SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0jlavarj
My one hang up about buying fist weapons is that they are MH or OH specific. A shaman in my guild had gotten the Merc Glad MH fist weapon, and then was power leveling blacksmithing for the drakefist/dragonmaw hammer when I pointed out that both of those were main hand specific weapons. It broke his heart. Taking the rippers leaves you without options should a better main hand come along, whereas with the axe and mace, you can just transfer the gladiator weapon into your offhand and not have to grind honor for another offhand.
#5777SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Audrix
The only difference that would influence your picking of an axe or mace would be a racial. I believe orcs benefits from axes from what I have read. Other than that all 1h arena weapons are the same. The fist weapons as mention above would just lock it for MH use only.
#5778SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aspartem
Ive a question to the Addon "Enhancer". I dont know why, but i cant see the Enhancer-Points like, i think, Malan posted around Page 100.
Everytime i try to add the String from CrazyShaman, Enhancer says its an incorrect String. I'm lookin trhough this Thread and other Forums since 5-6 Hours - now i just ask for help^^

Could someone explain me, how this Addon works correctly?
Could i possibly be, that "Enhancer" dont work well with the German Version of WoW?

Greetz
Aspa
#5779SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Patterns...
Getting Yo!'s sim to run

So I've searched the thread for some troubleshooting ideas for Yo!'s sim but couldn't find much. I've only been able to get it to run a sim once (out of *many* times messing with it). I read one post where someone said he clicked the "Theorycraft!" button 5 or 6 times until his CPU usage on task manager spiked to near 100%. This is exactly what happened the one time the sim ran for me -- since then though I haven't been able to get the CPU usage spike that would signify the sim was active. Which is to say, I don't believe it's a matter of the sim running and I just don't realize it; I think I can't get it to begin.

Anyone have any tips for working with the applet?

Last edited by Patterns... : 12/21/07 at 11:04 PM. Reason: clarity
#5780SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
If you have a Pentium 4 CPU with Hyperthreading, a Core Duo, or a Athlon 64 X2 your CPU usage will appear to spike only to 50%. Close WoW and any other applications that might use a lot of memory, even other Firefox windows -- I've noticed that the java applet is really unresponsive if you don't get it enough memory. Try using a low number of hours (100) and clicking the "Theorycraft!" button "firmly" until you see it locked in. It should come back relatively quickly. Then you can try using a higher number of hours for more reliable results.
#5781SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patterns...
Thanks Rob. So after another solid half-hour troubleshooting I discovered my silly mistake: gotta have values in all of the inputs below "Stats" on the Tracking Headquarters page. Evidently I'd been replacing the default 5 in the Haste% space with a null blank rather than a 0. Thought I'd share just in case anyone else has made/is making/will make the same error.
#5782SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0smokey
Do we have final EP values for T6 geared ?
#5783SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by smokey View Post
Do we have final EP values for T6 geared ?
I don't see what purpose that serves. EP values are based on your stats and are used to determine if a piece of gear is an upgrade or not, yet you want the EP values of a shaman with no upgrades left. If I'm remembering right even with the values listed on the front page for entry level shaman the best items remain the best even with inflated/shifted EP values.
#5784SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Lujaar
Originally Posted by Stopokingme View Post
We do have a crit cap, but it's so high you'll be very unlikely to reach it, even if you jammed your gear full with crit gems. Iirc the glance rate is 25%, so with capped hit and expertise the crit cap is at 75% for white attacks, and 100% for yellow attacks. With your hit rating that should be roughly 58% for white attacks and 95% for yellow attacks.

Anyway, if you have no access to 10 str gems, you should be gemming your gear with 5str and 5 crit no matter what. You should be getting superior EP from strength.
Yellow attacks have no crit cap because of the two-roll system, but white attacks converted from misses to hits by hit rating can't crit. I'm assuming that dodges converted to hits by expertise can't either.

So white crit cap is:

100% - 24% (glancing blows) - 28% (DW miss rate) - 5% (dodge) = 43%.

I can hit that twisting GoA with Kings and a feral druid. Even with no crit buffs whatsoever, double mongoose procs put me at just under 43%.

Ugh, guess I should look into getting an executioner enchant after all.

Edit: As Morelis and Yo pointed out, WoWWiki says I'm wrong about this. Crit cap is 43% + your hit.

Last edited by Lujaar : 12/23/07 at 2:16 PM.
#5785SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Morelis
Originally Posted by Lujaar View Post
Yellow attacks have no crit cap because of the two-roll system, but white attacks converted from misses to hits by hit rating can't crit. I'm assuming that dodges converted to hits by expertise can't either.
Really? If true that would be big news, but this is the first I've heard of it.
#5786SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
Really? If true that would be big news, but this is the first I've heard of it.
No it wouldn't. That's the one-roll attack table in action, and it's probably the most basic assumption that this entire thread has been operating on.
#5787SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Morelis
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
No it wouldn't. That's the one-roll attack table in action, and it's probably the most basic assumption that this entire thread has been operating on.
That would seem to conflict directly with the information here though that information is using old data, was this something that changed at the point the glancing rate was reduced? Just so I'm clear, you're saying that increasing hit has no bearing on the crit cap for white attacks?

edit: Just tried this with Yo's sim and using high crit rates shows that he is following the reasoning that hit does increase the crit cap for white attacks, if incorrect he should fix that.

Last edited by Morelis : 12/22/07 at 4:17 PM.
#5788SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Scheme
No, what he's saying is that it wouldn't be big news, because it's a pretty integral part of melee-class theorycrafting.
#5789SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Yo!
This link Weapon skill directly states
All these crit caps could be increased by increasing your ... +hit (1% increase per point)
I fail to see
white attacks converted from misses to hits by hit rating can't crit
in Attack table
Here is dual-wielding example that shows that
Increased hit rating can result in increased critical strike results from auto attacks
Hit
Following this logic our crit cap is 55%-60% for most players..

Last edited by Yo! : 12/22/07 at 5:36 PM.
#5790SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
That would seem to conflict directly with the information here though that information is using old data, was this something that changed at the point the glancing rate was reduced? Just so I'm clear, you're saying that increasing hit has no bearing on the crit cap for white attacks?
No, I'm saying that increasing that the statement "white attacks converted from misses to hits by hit rating can't crit" is the standard assumption. Normally, this is true. If you have 30% crit and 9% hit from talents and add 1% hit from rating, you will not gain any additional crits. This assumption has implicitly been made in every set of AEP valuations we've discussed, ranging from Disquette's original work to the numbers most people get from Yo's today.

This will only be false if you are crit capped. According to the article linked by Yo, the crit cap is 50.2%, before adding any hit rating. (Recall that glancing blows were dropped from occurring 40% of the time to ~20%.)

If you're properly specced you'll have at least 6% hit and probably 9% hit before any gear. So you're looking at 56%-59% crit cap before any gear. With Kings, LoTP, GoA, and double Mongoose rolling I'm just barely breaking 50% crit. Thus, "white attacks converted from misses to hit by hit rating can't crit". I would expect this to hold true, at least at the margin, for any shaman whose Armory profile you link me.


Edit:

Apparently, Lujaar was trying to argue that hit rating cannot increase the crit cap. The evidence I have seen suggests that this is incorrect (and the rest of this post makes the opposite assumption in calculating the crit cap). Morelis was right in correcting him.

I misunderstood what was being debated, and I took this to be another instance of "you need to hit to crit," which is a commonly held misconception we are confronted with weekly in this thread. Since the 2.1 glancing blows reduction, the crit cap has been a complete non-issue for enhancement shamans, and I haven't seen a post on it in months. I will leave both of my posts as-is in the hopes that we'll get one less "hit to crit" post.

To conclude:
* White melee attacks are resolved by a one-roll system in which your "paperdoll" critical strike percentage will occur as a percent of all swings, not of all hits.
* A theoretical "crit cap" does exist, but it is very high (52% using the numbers Lujaar gives for glancing blows, DW miss chance, dodge, and assuming 9% from talents).
* This crit cap increases as hit rating and expertise rating are obtained on gear. In practice, enhancement shamans will never reach this crit cap.

Last edited by Rob : 12/22/07 at 7:26 PM.
#5791SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
+ Added Hand of Justice trinket as 1.33% on any attack for extra attack with same hand. Uses yellow attack hit chance. Adds as WF damage in report. Remember to add passive 20 ap directly
+ Added Elixir of Demonslaying
+ Changed Ashtongue Talisman proc rate to 50%
+ Changed Madness of Betrayer "real" (auto-attacks only) ppm to 1 to reflect upkeep of 40% as in game. 2.4 ppm that is used often for this trinket is total observed in game with yellow attacks, flurried white attacks, etc. and was incorreclty used by me
+ Changed DST "real" (auto-attacks only) ppm to 1 to reflect upkeep of 25% as in game (20 saec hidden cooldown)

The one proc that remains modelled not correctly is Dragonstrike.
Please post or direct me to the following data:
1) uptime that you observe in raids
2) uptime with auto-attacksonly
3) # of procs over 1 minute in raid
4) # of procs over 1 minute with auto-attacks only
5) any other info? (hidden cooldown, patch notes, etc.)

Though EP values of Elixir of Demonslaying and Mark of the Champion are trivial, I guess they are worth to be added to OP as they remain best options for specific fights.
#5792SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skeptikk
Thankyou for the updates Yo!
#5793SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Hmm all the bosses in Hyjal count as demons right? Which ones in BT?
#5794SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Mother Shahraz and Illidan, I'm guessing? I'm pretty sure Reliquary isn't a demon.

Btw, Rage Winterchill isn't a demon =P. All the rest is though.
#5795SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Well I suppose at least 2 of the sunwell bosses are going to be demons too from what we know.
#5796SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Anarkii
Supremus is a demon as well.
#5797SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
I was under the impression that converted hits had higher priority than crits, but I'm not going to argue with WoWWiki. Morelis and Yo, thanks for the information.
#5798SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Visionnaire
Is there any reason to believe that the "offhand" Vengeful Gladiator weapon is any worse than the "one-hand" Vengeful Gladiator weapon for using in one's offhand?
(Considering they both have the EXACT same stats except for that label mentioned above)
#5799SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0spanko
Only the fact that its an offhand and you won't ever be able to use it your main hand.
#5800SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Chopps
Thank you for all the wonderful information in this thread. I have questions regarding Yo! 's fantastic AEP Calculator I haven't been able to find here.

Am I correct in assuming the more "Hours of hack and slash" the more accurate my results will be? I know it sounds silly, but I'm getting drastically different values from running 20,000 hours from 100,000 hours. It would seem to make sense the more hours the better, but I wasn't sure if at some point too long of a test will mess something up. Throughout the thread, I've always seen people use 10-20K hours. I've followed the listed values on the first page for awhile, but I'd like to use my own values for evaluating upgrades.
#5801SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Most incorrect results were due to incorrect input.
Post sreenshots of first pages after running.
#5802SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Chopps
I'm not saying any of the results are wrong, just that with the exact same settings, I get very different values with 20K hours vs. 100K hours. I ran them back to back. I can still post screenshots if you'd like though.
#5803SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Zhebrica
FT will be a more viable OH weapon imbue in patch 2.3. Its not going to out DPS Windfury.
I don't think I understand what's meant by "more viable" here, if not "higher DPS".
#5804SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Scheme
"More viable than it is now."
#5805SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Galeyra
Originally Posted by Chopps View Post
I'm not saying any of the results are wrong, just that with the exact same settings, I get very different values with 20K hours vs. 100K hours. I ran them back to back. I can still post screenshots if you'd like though.
Same Problem here. With the exact same input, i got results for AEP values not even close together. Thats with 20k+ hours used.
#5806SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Chopps View Post
I'm not saying any of the results are wrong, just that with the exact same settings, I get very different values with 20K hours vs. 100K hours. I ran them back to back. I can still post screenshots if you'd like though.
Well, if program is unstable to the point where it produces very different results with same settings running for 1 hour of real CPU time - it is definitely wrong as it simulates 10 years of non-stop gaming and averaged over such long time results are expected to be constant. Yes, please, post or pm screens, otherwise I do not know how to help you as what you observe should not happen. 10,000 should be enough for EP calculation and 100-1000 for dps calculation. Please remember that you do not need to find EP values if directly comparing 2 pieces/sets of armor in the sim - simply compare dps. I am satisfied with sims stability after some EP calculation improvements few changes back.
#5807SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Freyalis
Hey Yo, i noticed on the buffs & debuffs section that you have Grace of Air adding +97 AGI, at least on the tooltip.

As far as i'm aware the last rank of GoA (the old AQ version) is +77 AGI which makes +88 talented. We did get a new rank of SoE though which is +97 STR talented.

Not sure if its just a tooltip problem or its coded that way aswell.
#5808SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
I typically will see some variance between 10k hour runs (e.g.: hit changes from 1.65 to 1.72, haste changes from 1.89 to 1.75, whatever) and do what Malan does, which is to run a few different 10k sims, throw out any huge outliers, and take the average of the remainder.

I have noticed that armor penetration is very consistent between runs (always 0.29 with my stats), as is expertise (3.08-3.09).
#5809SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ston
Armor penetration isn't changing because it will affect all your melee damage exactly the same, whether they be crits, hits, or glances. expertise will change a little because it's changing some of those dodge/parrys to hits, albeit not that many, so a smaller change.
#5810SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0drats
A few pages back there was a discussion about helms with/without metagems past t5 content. While I saw an increase from my T4 helm to the Zul'jin helm, the S3 helm with the RED is considerably more dps. I have started stacking armor penetration since then, so that could be part of the difference (I'm at about 500 with the helm.) Anyways, if you have the arena points for it and can't find anything else with a meta, I'd highly recommend the S3 helm.

edit: Once raids start up again I'll post some numbers.
#5811SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hotiedraenei
I am debating if I should change out my Legs for either the Season 3 Vengful Legs or the Badge Reward Legs of the Shifting Camouflage Pants. I currently have the Forest Walker Kilt Forestwalker Kilt - Items - World of Warcraft with +8 Bold Living Ruby, 2 Sovereign Nightseye's and the +40 atk +10 Crit LW Kit on them. Any ideas would be great.
#5812SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Horus
i dont want that malan has to say it again, so i do:


all you need is an calculator and the first page of this thread.
#5813SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hotiedraenei
Originally Posted by Horus View Post
i dont want that malan has to say it again, so i do:


all you need is an calculator and the first page of this thread.
Sorry I should of been more clear I do realize that all 3 pieces of gear are pretty near each other. I guess what I am looking to know is with more armor penetration of 175 on the Shifting Camouflage Pants, or the 84 on the Vengeful Gladiator Leggings be more useful when I get to bigger raids once my guild pasts Karazhan and starts the 25 mans? I will go ahead and try Yo's Simulator to see some of the different results, I would appreciate if anyone else has any first hand knowledge how it was impacted DPS wise when they droped some of their Attack Power or Strength for the items with the Armor Penetration or Expertise.
#5814SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yuma
Originally Posted by Hotiedraenei View Post
Sorry I should of been more clear I do realize that all 3 pieces of gear are pretty near each other. I guess what I am looking to know is with more armor penetration of 175 on the Shifting Camouflage Pants, or the 84 on the Vengeful Gladiator Leggings be more useful when I get to bigger raids once my guild pasts Karazhan and starts the 25 mans? I will go ahead and try Yo's Simulator to see some of the different results, I would appreciate if anyone else has any first hand knowledge how it was impacted DPS wise when they droped some of their Attack Power or Strength for the items with the Armor Penetration or Expertise.
Read the first page of the thread, specifically the part on simulations.
#5815SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Sebudai
I noticed there weren't any EP values listed for T6 quality gear in the first post. I ran seven 10,000 hour simulations recently, so if we would like to use my values in any way, here they are:

Crit Rating
1.74
1.75
1.72
1.76
1.77
1.74
1.72

Agility
1.7
1.7
1.67
1.71
1.72
1.69
1.67

Hit Rating
1.68
1.8
1.75
1.7
1.74
1.73
1.7

Haste Rating
1.81
1.8
1.84
1.84
1.83
1.89
1.78

Armor Penetration
0.35
0.35
0.35
0.35
0.35
0.35
0.35

Expertise
3.19
3.17
3.17
3.2
3.17
3.22
3.19
My stats for the simulation were:

Attack Power - 1782
Crit % - 36.5
Hit % - 17.5
Haste % - 4.63
Boss Armor Value - 2930
Armor Penetration - 336

Anyway, dunno if they're useful to anyone but myself, but there they are.
#5816SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Smokestomp
Hey, I can't decide for an enchanter, which is more valuable for PVE, +2 weapon damage or +4 stats for ring enchants.

2.6 speed weapons hasted to 2.0 mean each +2 enchant is worth 2 dps.

It would be nice if WWS would have like some option to show weapon speed over time, because DST/heroism/mongoose/LW drums increase the value of this +2 weapon damage in a raid setting.

Obviously +4 stat is superior for PVP, but in PVE, roughly +1 dps and some minor crit.
#5817SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Scheme
16 AP and .32% crit is worth about 8 DPS or so. Don't use the paper doll to determine how much DPS a stat gain gives you; all it tells you is how much base non-crit auto-attack DPS you gain.
#5818SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Brum
Here's some info I gathered on the percentage of windfuries eaten by the main hand when wielding Syphon and Tide. For those of you with dual season three weapons it's kind of a moot point but some of us just can't get the crayon out

Weapon speed and Windfury
Theory states that, given the choice between two comparable weapons, putting the faster weapon in your main hand will result in higher damage than putting it in your off hand because (allegedly) fewer WFs will be used by the OH, which is subject to the 50% OH dmg penalty. This is because the faster weapon is more likely to attack first once the 3 sec WF cooldown is over, and will attack more often while outside the WF CD, giving it more chances to proc WF

Below is data from Servant logs recorded while using Rising Tide MH (2.6) and Syphon OH (2.8). Both weaps had mongoose, I had 5/5 flurry and also parry flurried a number of times during combat. Both weaps were passively hasted to 2.32 (Tide) and 2.5 (Syphon) from gear. With 90% flurry uptime the avg speeds became (2.32/1.3)/.9 = 1.98 for Tide, and (2.5/1.3)/.9 = 2.14 for Syphon

Here's what you'd expect for the % of WFs eaten by the MH when both weapons spend an equal amount of time hasted:
# MH swings over 10 sec/# total swings over 10 sec = (10/1.98) / [(10/2.14) + (10/1.98)]

[top] 2.14/(2.14+1.98)


51.87%


This is what occurred in testing:
MH WFs = 367/678 = 54.13%

Switching hands to put Syphon in MH and Tide in OH you'd expect the % of WFs that are MH to be:
1.98/(2.14+1.98) = 48.13%

The results were:
333/649 = 51.31%

I'm not gonna try to factor in the expected values accounting for parry flurries and mongoose procs. Theoretically, if the haste effects are distributed evenly, the faster your weapons are the higher the % of WFs eaten by the MH will be. This explains a bit of the discrepancy between theory and test, but not 2-3% worth. 2-3% isn't a big deal though.

What's most remarkable is that when the Syphon was MHed, the percent of WFs eaten by the MH was still over 50. So either there's a mechanic I don't know about, the tests were flawed (not enough data points perhaps), or the theory's bunk. If I had to guess I'd say they coded in some mechanic to queue WF procs during the cooldown and give precedent to MH WFs within that queue, so that when you come out of CD there's a higher chance a MH proc hits. That's probably just wishful thinking though. Whatever the case, OHing the slower weapon came out with the higher % of WFs eaten by the MH, which supports the theory

Data:
#5819SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Brum View Post
\
Weapon speed and Windfury
Theory states that, given the choice between two comparable weapons, putting the faster weapon in your main hand will result in higher damage than putting it in your off hand because (allegedly) fewer WFs will be used by the OH, which is subject to the 50% OH dmg penalty. This is because the faster weapon is more likely to attack first once the 3 sec WF cooldown is over, and will attack more often while outside the WF CD, giving it more chances to proc WF
This was a theory 100 pages back of this thread. The current one resulted in this line from OP:
2.x/2.y Weapon Speed Combinations
A frequently asked question is how to wield weapons with differing speeds but similar DPS values, such as using a Rising Tide and a Syphon - is it better to put one weapon in the main/off hand over the other? Simulation results indicate that it makes no difference which hand the slower weapon is wielded in. It appears that in general, a 2.x/2.y = 2.y/2.x.
For more details use search.
#5820SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Malan
Yah I lost the link to the original post that discussed that stuff, the guy who did it ran some pretty extensive tests on the simulator and in the game to verify, but in the end the result was 2.x/2.y = 2.y/2.x.

Updated the T6 content EP weights with the averages of Sebudai's values.

[e] Good news for Pawn users, the latest version now has a GUI configuration so you don't need the strings anymore. Simply type /pawn and then input your EP values directly.

Last edited by Malan : 12/26/07 at 11:08 AM.
#5821SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Considering how important they are to stat weights, I'd like to know which buffs Seb receives. I assume BoK / BoM / MotW / Relentless / Haste Pots / SoE / Battle Shout , but is he twisting (and thus including GoA)? Getting LotP?

Buff configuration the best part about EP weights from Yo's sim -- my guild typically runs with only two paladins and I'm often grouped with a feral, which decreases the relative weight of strength and agi/crit by a worthwhile amount.
#5822SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
In case anyone missed this, the former feral weapon skill ring from Lower City, [Shapeshifter's Signet] is now ranked (according to my personal EP values) as a Top 10 ring, better than almost every ring available in T5 content.
#5823SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
It's on the top twenty list for me, Malan. My EP values, due to my group makeup, undervalue agility (~1.6 EP) and as such T5 rings and even the Violet Eye ring are better. Still, that and the [Vindicator's Band of Triumph] are easy grinds for any shaman looking for guaranteed upgrades to their raid gear.
#5824SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xoya
Alright, I know I should know how to do this, but I'm still unsure of exactly what level of "buffed stats" to input when I check "BoK' on Yo's simulator. Much, much earlier in the thread I remember someone saying, "Buff yourself with kings and mark of the wild and input those numbers"; is this accurate? If not, what am I missing?

Edit: also, is the "use 30% of AP as spell power" button working yet? If not, how should I handle that?
#5825SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
Alright, I know I should know how to do this, but I'm still unsure of exactly what level of "buffed stats" to input when I check "BoK' on Yo's simulator. Much, much earlier in the thread I remember someone saying, "Buff yourself with kings and mark of the wild and input those numbers"; is this accurate? If not, what am I missing?
Because Yo's sim does not have STR and AGI inputs it can't know how much your AP and critical strike chance will increase with BoK. If you wish to account for BoK, check the BoK box and add STR*0.2 to AP and AGI/250 to Crit %.

I believe (hope?) Yo's sim will already account for the extra 10% increase in STR and AGI given by SoE/GoA with the BoK box checked. If it does, it probably also accounts the extra increase for MotW, and for buffs such as Roasted Clefthoof, Elixir of Major Agility, etc. But since you mention MotW specifically, if you want to get the contribution of Kings on MotW you may also need to add 4 AP and 0.01% crit. This should not be enough to significantly affect the output and I don't bother with this step.

Last edited by Rob : 12/26/07 at 5:00 PM.
#5876SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tumbo
If two weapons have the same speed, would one have to worry about the OH locking the MH from proccing WF?
#5877SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vorda
Originally Posted by Tumbo View Post
If two weapons have the same speed, would one have to worry about the OH locking the MH from proccing WF?
Are you sure you read the first post completely? Try reading it again It has WF mechanics explained better then most of us could anyway.
#5878SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Draco Argentum
I'm trying to find the maths proving WF > GoA. Didn't the first post have the links at one point. It looks like Malan has cleaned it up and improved the formatting. At the same time the maths has gone. I'm trying to prove that we need WF in the melee group but without the maths all I have is argumentum ad verecundiam.
#5879SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Vareyn
Originally Posted by Kyrryth View Post
This is my shaman's armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
Here's a sample of my EP values:

AP - 1
Crit rating - 0.99
Hit rating - 1.11
Haste rating - 0.54
Armor penetration - 0.11
Strength - 2
Agility - 0.88
Expertise rating - 1.18

That was only after one test at 10,000 hours, so it may not be incredibly accurate, but it's interesting, I think.

2.7 (32.1 DPS)/2.7 DW (28.1) (11.74% crit, 570 AP, 6% hit): 238 DPS
3.7 (43.4 DPS) (11.74% crit, 570 AP, 0% hit): 171 DPS
Yo's sim is designed for level 70 in mind, and is hence converting the rating as if it was a level 70. You will have to do CritAEPx22.08 divided by however much rating gets you a percent critical strike at your level. Same can be applied to the hit and haste rating. I am also not sure how much agility differs in providing critical strike for lower levels.
#5880SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Strygwyr
Just a random question here, does it make sense theoreticly that at a certain point of gear, crit rating will be worth more then strength?
#5881SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Strygwyr View Post
Just a random question here, does it make sense theoreticly that at a certain point of gear, crit rating will be worth more then strength?
Maybe if you had managed to gear yourself entirely in +Strength gear with absolutely no crit of any sort. Not sure if it would actually be worth *more* but it might approach the value. Strength will never be worth less than 2 since its 2 AP and I think you'd be hard pressed to find any sort of actual in-game gear that could make any stat worth more than that.
#5882SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Karok(EU)
Originally Posted by Tumbo View Post
If two weapons have the same speed, would one have to worry about the OH locking the MH from proccing WF?
I'm using two 2.7 speed maces, and I do get offhand procs, just fewer when compared to having a faster offhand.
#5883SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Smokestomp
Not sure if this was covered somewhere in the threat, but its not in the OP afaik.

For enhance shamans that are enchanters aswell:

+2 weapon damage, or +4 stats for rings.

From what I understand, the +2 increases in value as attack speed increases through flurry/drums/heroism/DST. Is this the case with +4 stats aswell? Stats feels more well rounded and "hybrid" like, but for raw dps in PVE, I'm just not entirely decided.
#5884SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
+2 damage to both weapons.(no oh penalty)
So AEP value for 2.6 speed weapons
2 *(2 / 2.6) = 1.538wDps
Using 8.48 ep per wDps +2dam = 13.05ep
But mental quickness inflate wDps ep by 0.85multiplier so its only 11.09ep.

Stats is superior.
16.8ep + 4* stamina, int & spi.


All stats scales when "attack speed increases through flurry/drums/heroism/DST." not just +2dmg.
#5885SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0seminarca
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
If you're leveling a new shaman you need to avoid Dual Wielding for as long as possible, there's just not enough Hit Rating available until the mid to late 50s and you'll be very hard pressed to find slow enough weapons. Stick with slow 2H weapons until you're almost to Outland.
I don't agree with that at all. I leveled an Enhancement Shaman a few months ago, and switched to dw just as soon as I could. I eyeball recap often while leveling, and noticed a significant jump in dps after switching, as well as higher flurry uptime.

Weapon availability is a potential issue, I used wowhead filters (this one is from lvl 40 to 50) and then scanned the AH for this stuff off and on. When I hit 42 I had two [Skullcrusher Mace] sitting in my mailbox, one of them had a bullshit enchant (of the Whale or something) but the weapon speed and dps was more important. [Corpse Harvester] at 50. Picked up a [Ripsaw] at some point in time, after the 2.3 revamp there's the excellent [Spirit of the Faerie Dragon] from a fairly trivial Feralas quest chain if you don't want to instance.
#5886SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by seminarca View Post
I don't agree with that at all. I leveled an Enhancement Shaman a few months ago, and switched to dw just as soon as I could. I eyeball recap often while leveling, and noticed a significant jump in dps after switching, as well as higher flurry uptime.
this is exactly the same thing I experienced, I switched to the highest dps weapons i could find and went DW or nothing and things were so much better past that point.

For weapons, the AH always served me well in that regard.
#5887SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Strygwyr
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Maybe if you had managed to gear yourself entirely in +Strength gear with absolutely no crit of any sort. Not sure if it would actually be worth *more* but it might approach the value. Strength will never be worth less than 2 since its 2 AP and I think you'd be hard pressed to find any sort of actual in-game gear that could make any stat worth more than that.

Well, i did socket nearly all my gear with +8 str gems, currently 1650 AP and 29% crit, and Yo's sim is showing that crit rating is worth more for me then Str, i tested with 1000 hours and 10000 hours.
#5888SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Diabolos
Weights -- Not directly addressed in the original post

I have noticed a few things about the shaman that I have yet to actually Read in any forums...

I've noticed that for every 100 AP, I recieve ~33.333 Bonus Spell DMG, regardless of if the AP bonus is from STR or raw AP. In addition, I have noticed that Critical Strike Rating (NOT Agility) yields a slight addition to Spell Critical Strike (Something like a 20% Yield. For every 1% Melee crit achieved from Crit Rating grants ~.2% Spell Crit).

Also -- Considering the vast improvements in 2.3 to Mana Efficiency, Shocks are a notably larger contributor to DPS than before, assuming the Focused State & Water Shield will have a ~90% Uptime.
#5889SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Strygwyr View Post
Well, i did socket nearly all my gear with +8 str gems, currently 1650 AP and 29% crit, and Yo's sim is showing that crit rating is worth more for me then Str, i tested with 1000 hours and 10000 hours.
Well that is completely incorrect in that case. I would suggest that you double check what values you put in and screenshot it for Yo if it does it again.

Originally Posted by Diabolos View Post
I have noticed a few things about the shaman that I have yet to actually Read in any forums...

I've noticed that for every 100 AP, I recieve ~33.333 Bonus Spell DMG, regardless of if the AP bonus is from STR or raw AP. In addition, I have noticed that Critical Strike Rating (NOT Agility) yields a slight addition to Spell Critical Strike (Something like a 20% Yield. For every 1% Melee crit achieved from Crit Rating grants ~.2% Spell Crit).

Also -- Considering the vast improvements in 2.3 to Mana Efficiency, Shocks are a notably larger contributor to DPS than before, assuming the Focused State & Water Shield will have a ~90% Uptime.
Point 1 - well duh. Strength provides 2 AP. You have the mental quickness talent that gives 30% of your AP to spell damage. So no kidding, you've never seen that mentioned because its obvious.
Point 2 - No. Absolutely no. If you're going to make a ludicrous statement like that you'd *damn well* better have some combat logs or screenshots of the char screen to back it up, and it would still be a bug. Melee Critical Strike Rating is not intended to provide spell crit.
Point 3 - Its been rehashed ad nauseam in this thread you aren't telling us anything we aren't aware of.

Last edited by Malan : 12/30/07 at 1:59 PM.
#5890SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Ilmatar
What is the Flurry uptime % from those sim runs, Strygwyr?

This is a total guess, and honestly I'm on vacation so I don't want to look up anything, but my guess is that you are going to see value on crit drop to a more normal value as soon as you get a bit over 30% crit. I think that the reason why crit may be showing up higher than strength is because the haste gained from attaining near 100% flurry uptime is going to increase your white dps significantly, due to the high AP you are packing. The other part of this valuing is Unleashed Rage uptime, as well, I think.

Just my shot in the dark. If I'm wrong, someone else can correct me

Edit:
In addition, I have noticed that Critical Strike Rating (NOT Agility) yields a slight addition to Spell Critical Strike (Something like a 20% Yield. For every 1% Melee crit achieved from Crit Rating grants ~.2% Spell Crit).
I haven't noticed this but I also haven't looked. Has anyone else seen this? (Vacation also means WoW vacation, or I'd test it myself.)

Last edited by Ilmatar : 12/30/07 at 1:57 PM. Reason: Added question about m.c.r.->s.c.r.
#5891SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Strygwyr
It shows my FLurry uptime to be 78%, probably because my MH speed and my OH speed dont match, i hve a 2.7 MH and 2.6 OH. Black planar Edge and Glads Cleaver, i also have a decapitator i could wield if it would increase my DPS.
#5892SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Strygwyr View Post
It shows my FLurry uptime to be 78%, probably because my MH speed and my OH speed dont match, i hve a 2.7 MH and 2.6 OH. Black planar Edge and Glads Cleaver, i also have a decapitator i could wield if it would increase my DPS.
Okay that's a reasonable flurry uptime, I think it's probably a result of the UR uptime, then; or bad input/bug.
#5893SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0testthewest
Crit versus AP (Str)

Someone a few posts above mine said crit rating was affecting his dps more than strength. Some other person then replied that this isn't possible.

I would like to add, that theoretical it is possible, since AP (or Str) adds dmg linear, while Crit multiplies the dps you have.

Asuming you have a 100dps weapon, 4200 AP and 10% crit (I know: very strange values, but I wanna make a pont here; furthermore I ignore hit here for a sec).

then you have 400dps and 10% crit, which leads to 345dps.

Player A adds 22,1str, Player B adds 22,1 critrating.

Player A now has 4244,2 AP and still 10% crit:

=> 403,15718 * 1,10 = 442,47285dps

Player B still sits at 4200AP, but has 11% crit now.

=>400*1,11 = 444dps

As you see, adding crit improved the dps more than adding more AP.

The values for AP might seem high, but thats just to prove the point, and I'm too lazy to calculate flurry in, which will help crit even more, so that the breaking point, where crit gets better than AP is lower.
#5894SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by testthewest View Post
Someone a few posts above mine said crit rating was affecting his dps more than strength. Some other person then replied that this isn't possible.
No, the person said that the simulator was reporting an EP value of Crit as being higher than Strength (2 or 2.2 with Kings).
#5895SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0testthewest
EP value misunderstandings?

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
No, the person said that the simulator was reporting an EP value of Crit as being higher than Strength (2 or 2.2 with Kings).

Good Sir, I might have a huge misunderstanding here. I thought, the EP value was to compare the impact of stats on dps, in comparison to AP.

If this is true, its there can be no static value for crit rating (I know, old news).

The original poster wanted to know if under certain circumstance it is thinkable, that critrating has a higher impact on his dps, an therefore a higher EP value.
I gave an example.
#5896SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Ok yah, thought you were referring to the guy a page back that had funny sim results. But yah I said the same thing earlier - for some obscene values of AP vs Crit you could have that happen, but its not like you could ever construct such a gear set from whats available anyways.
#5897SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Daagar
Originally Posted by Vareyn View Post
Yo's sim is designed for level 70 in mind, and is hence converting the rating as if it was a level 70. You will have to do CritAEPx22.08 divided by however much rating gets you a percent critical strike at your level. Same can be applied to the hit and haste rating. I am also not sure how much agility differs in providing critical strike for lower levels.
Thanks for pointing this out. For anyone else that wants to use Yo's sim prior to level 70, you need to correct crit strike/haste/hit/expertise as Vareyn describes above. The formula's for determining this are all available at: Combat rating system - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft under the "Combat Ratings formula" heading. Yes, this is probably obvious to most folks, but I had to go find it so hoping it helps someone else.

One value I didn't know how to correct for was Boss Armor. Obviously, 4400 is going to be too high... is there a formula or even a way to ballpark the values?
#5898SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ankha
First post, and a question...

Ok its my first day on this site, and I had a talent question.

Why do so many talent builds choose 2 pts in Anticipation over 2 pts in Guardian Totems. Is there something I'm not getting?

The 1 sec reduced cooldown on the grounding totem seems like a very useful thing. -Ankha
#5899SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0DaveA50
Originally Posted by Diabolos View Post
In addition, I have noticed that Critical Strike Rating (NOT Agility) yields a slight addition to Spell Critical Strike (Something like a 20% Yield. For every 1% Melee crit achieved from Crit Rating grants ~.2% Spell Crit).
Could it be that when you switched an item that had crit rating on it, that you gained int as well? Because int does add to spell crit rating...
#5900SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ankha View Post
Ok its my first day on this site, and I had a talent question.

Why do so many talent builds choose 2 pts in Anticipation over 2 pts in Guardian Totems. Is there something I'm not getting?

The 1 sec reduced cooldown on the grounding totem seems like a very useful thing. -Ankha
Very little in Raid PVE is groundable, making it effectively worthless. 2% dodge is 2% of attacks that won't kill you.

-ankha
#5901SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gehenna
well

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Well that is completely incorrect in that case. I would suggest that you double check what values you put in and screenshot it for Yo if it does it again.



Point 1 - well duh. Strength provides 2 AP. You have the mental quickness talent that gives 30% of your AP to spell damage. So no kidding, you've never seen that mentioned because its obvious.
Point 2 - No. Absolutely no. If you're going to make a ludicrous statement like that you'd *damn well* better have some combat logs or screenshots of the char screen to back it up, and it would still be a bug. Melee Critical Strike Rating is not intended to provide spell crit.
Point 3 - Its been rehashed ad nauseam in this thread you aren't telling us anything we aren't aware of.
This person might simply be seeing effects form the +int on the items he is equipping.
#5902SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0kevagron
I'm struggling a bit with the "slow is better" concept although I understand the basic idea.

My quandary is that I recently killed Kovork on an alt and his Rattle dropped (38-72 dam, 3.00 speed, OH, 18.3 dps +2 str +5agi).

I'm level 55 and have Mass of McGowan banked for lvl 57 for MH but does the 0.2 slower speed of Kovork's make it better than Smashing Star of the Monkey (62-115, 2.8 speed, OH, 31.6 dps, 6 agi & stam)

I've just tried working through the maths for the OH and it says my damage (using max damage number) would be 258 with Kovork and 212 with Smashing Star. WF damage would be 340 with Kovork and 392 with Smashing Star.

Do these seem reasonable? Roughly 320 AP atm unbuffed/self buffed (yes, my gear sucks - bloody hunter mail)

Are my maths right? Is Kovork's a better OH than a lvl 48 mace that's only 0.2 seconds slower?

Thanks for any responses, I did try :-)
#5903SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0beetlejuice
Originally Posted by Ankha View Post
Ok its my first day on this site, and I had a talent question.

Why do so many talent builds choose 2 pts in Anticipation over 2 pts in Guardian Totems. Is there something I'm not getting?

The 1 sec reduced cooldown on the grounding totem seems like a very useful thing. -Ankha
To be honest, i prefer 2 points in Guardian totems as it's really usefull to have faster grounding cooldown in duels and battleground fun.

2% extra dodge won't save you, i mean, all experienced people know that you dodge certain times in a pve raid, you are not a target of a mob all the time. In these certain times, 20 or 22% dodge will have the same effect. To actualy see a difference in the dodges, means that you will get targeted and hit from mobs alot, which for our class and spec never happens.
#5904SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by kevagron View Post
My quandary is that I recently killed Kovork on an alt and his Rattle dropped (38-72 dam, 3.00 speed, OH, 18.3 dps +2 str +5agi).

I'm level 55 and have Mass of McGowan banked for lvl 57 for MH but does the 0.2 slower speed of Kovork's make it better than Smashing Star of the Monkey (62-115, 2.8 speed, OH, 31.6 dps, 6 agi & stam)
Look at the DPS. The Star is almost a 2x upgrade in damage. When in doubt, take the higher DPS if the speeds are roughly the same.
#5905SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Martyrbg
Hello, I greatly enjoyed reading this guide, it includes some awesome and well backed-up analysis that I used to maximize my enhancement shaman's DPS output. Just a tip: you may like to add epic BT/Hyjal gems to the gem itemization section, e.g. [Bold Crimson Spinel] instead of [Bold Living Ruby], [Inscribed Pyrestone] instead of [Inscribed Noble Topaz], [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] instead of [Sovereign Nightseye]. These are currently the best non-BoP options around for anyone that has reached T6 level. I noticed this was suggested earlier in the thread and I would like to support it. If the guide is to include T6-level weapons, it would be logical to include T6-level gems as well, as the best top-end choice. I hope this post have been of use to you Keep up the good work!
#5906SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by beetlejuice View Post
To be honest, i prefer 2 points in Guardian totems as it's really usefull to have faster grounding cooldown in duels and battleground fun.

2% extra dodge won't save you, i mean, all experienced people know that you dodge certain times in a pve raid, you are not a target of a mob all the time. In these certain times, 20 or 22% dodge will have the same effect. To actualy see a difference in the dodges, means that you will get targeted and hit from mobs alot, which for our class and spec never happens.
Err, no, there are definitely times going from 20 to 22% will save you. Just because you don't actively see those 2 talent points doing anything doesn't mean they're not.

Don't forget dodging a Hamstring, Mortal Strike, or possible mace stun is pretty cool too, you just don't notice that 2% of the time when it was a result of your talent points.
#5907SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
• Aeolian
Originally Posted by beetlejuice View Post
To be honest, i prefer 2 points in Guardian totems as it's really usefull to have faster grounding cooldown in duels and battleground fun.

2% extra dodge won't save you, i mean, all experienced people know that you dodge certain times in a pve raid, you are not a target of a mob all the time. In these certain times, 20 or 22% dodge will have the same effect. To actualy see a difference in the dodges, means that you will get targeted and hit from mobs alot, which for our class and spec never happens.
I love those two points in Anticipation. I've found them to be much more helpful then Guardian Totems. But it all comes down to personal choice. It has even saved me in PvE content, such as Off-tanks dieing for some stupid reason on Supremus or even earlier on in Gruul's. I've literally dodged 4 Hateful Strikes on Gruul's which allowed us to actually kill him. My personal experience makes me an "Anticipation" person, you may have different experiences. On top of this, I rarely duel and I PvP / Arena as Elemental.

Originally Posted by Martyrbg View Post
Hello, I greatly enjoyed reading this guide, it includes some awesome and well backed-up analysis that I used to maximize my enhancement shaman's DPS output. Just a tip: you may like to add epic BT/Hyjal gems to the gem itemization section, e.g. [Bold Crimson Spinel] instead of [Bold Living Ruby], [Inscribed Pyrestone] instead of [Inscribed Noble Topaz], [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] instead of [Sovereign Nightseye]. These are currently the best non-BoP options around for anyone that has reached T6 level. I noticed this was suggested earlier in the thread and I would like to support it. If the guide is to include T6-level weapons, it would be logical to include T6-level gems as well, as the best top-end choice. I hope this post have been of use to you Keep up the good work!
I believe this has been brought up several times already. While it might be a good idea, it should be very apparent that those are the gems you need. The guide was designed to give you the foundation for your character, allowing you to maximize it yourself as you gain in progression. Malan gave you the best gem choices, when the epic Mount Hyjal and Black Temple gems become available to you, it should be obvious which ones you should take. This "foundation" principle is also why the post doesn't go into gear specifics, telling you exactly which gear pieces you should pick up. It gives you the tools to find out for yourself, instead of holding your hand through it.

Last edited by Aeolian : 12/31/07 at 3:05 PM.
#5908SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Martyrbg View Post
Hello, I greatly enjoyed reading this guide, it includes some awesome and well backed-up analysis that I used to maximize my enhancement shaman's DPS output. Just a tip: you may like to add epic BT/Hyjal gems to the gem itemization section, e.g. [Bold Crimson Spinel] instead of [Bold Living Ruby], [Inscribed Pyrestone] instead of [Inscribed Noble Topaz], [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] instead of [Sovereign Nightseye]. These are currently the best non-BoP options around for anyone that has reached T6 level. I noticed this was suggested earlier in the thread and I would like to support it. If the guide is to include T6-level weapons, it would be logical to include T6-level gems as well, as the best top-end choice. I hope this post have been of use to you Keep up the good work!
The gems are left out because hopefully someone in T6 content(although sometimes I wonder) can piece together prefixes and realize that Bold = pure strength, Inscribed = str/crit, Sovereign = str/stam and apply that knowledge to the oh so difficult blue -> epic gem conversions of Ruby to Spinel, Topaz to Pyrestone, and Nightseye to Amethyst.
#5909SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bladefire
Leather vs Mail Armor

I have recently started low level raids (Kara) at the beginning of November and am currently doing Gruul / some ZA now too. I have been following the principles set forth thread to properly gear my Shaman and I am producing amazing DPS as well as dying more often than I would like. I have been designing my character based on EP values which is pointing me in the direction of leather armor. Leather "Rogue" gear as you know has no int, less armor but generally has higher stam as well as overall EP. I thought the higher stam would offset the loss in armor from mail. I am not sure if I should stay with leather (minus the T4 shaman set which I will be wearing) or go with a mix or full mail?

Strength: 206
Agility: 364
Stamina: 428
Intellect: 165
Spirit: 128
Armor: 4146
Health: 7259

Damage: 478 - 639
Speed: 2.55
Power: 1444
Hit Rating: 130
Crit Chance: 27.67%
Expertise: 3

The World of Warcraft Armory

I know that I need to replace the helm (including meta gem but I didn't want to do this till I have a new helm), chest, waist, trinkets, etc. I just wanted to make sure before I spend a lot a badges in the direction that I am going that it's not wrong.

Second, since I started switching to some leather pieces I have changed my pawn value of stam to .25 so I can have a health increase. Why is there no Pawn value for stam or armor (depends on the answer to the above)? It would seem to me as armor decreases that the value of stam would increase.

I am not asking for gear choices as I can choose those from this amazingly informative thread but just to understand why that some top shaman wear just mail, some a mix and some leather. I want to be productive in my progression without having to backtrack and rebuild.

Thank you and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
#5910SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
Originally Posted by Bladefire View Post
I want to be productive in my progression without having to backtrack and rebuild.

Thank you and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
You should not worry about possibly backtracking in your gear selections. I have seen this a few times in posts here but it is an imagined problem. It is true that stats change in value as your gear improves but the changes are minor.

I know that looking at the difference between Karazhan values and T6 values seems dramatic, but keep in mind that there are 3 dozen or so gear upgrades made in that span. If you have access to a piece of loot that is a clear upgrade now then go for it, you will not regret it.
#5911SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bladefire
Leather vs Mail Armor

I guess what I am asking is leather with a much higher EP and stam or mail with the lower EP value and higher armor? I have seen Beowolf's wonderful spreadsheet with the highest gear being leather, keiji wears a mix and other wear all mail. Is there a value or calcuation that can be applied to the armor value and stam to help evaluate pieces for us when we have this choice? What is the crossover point between armor and stam?

Example: It looks to me based on my armor that 1 point of armor equals .0068% reduction in damage.
#5912SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Pyre
The question you're asking doesn't apply to stat evaluation very well, since the evalution is based on damage out, not damage in. The question I have is really why are you dying? If it's not an agro issue, and you're just dying on fights like Aran, Illhoof, Nightbane, etc., then adding armor won't help much, if at all. If it is an agro issue, then obviously correcting that will solve the problem itself.

You might want to consider continuing to use the spreadsheet for your regular gear kit, then selectively swapping into higher stamina pieces for the fights you're having difficulty with.
#5913SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Bladefire View Post
I guess what I am asking is leather with a much higher EP and stam or mail with the lower EP value and higher armor? I have seen Beowolf's wonderful spreadsheet with the highest gear being leather, keiji wears a mix and other wear all mail.
I wear what I win when it drops. I can only loot so many items before I'm at the bottom of the priority list. There's a few slots where the mail and leather items are close enough in value that i told the rogues and our feral druid that I'd stick to mail on those items to lower the competition.
#5914SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Bladefire View Post
I guess what I am asking is leather with a much higher EP and stam or mail with the lower EP value and higher armor? I have seen Beowolf's wonderful spreadsheet with the highest gear being leather, keiji wears a mix and other wear all mail. Is there a value or calcuation that can be applied to the armor value and stam to help evaluate pieces for us when we have this choice? What is the crossover point between armor and stam?

Example: It looks to me based on my armor that 1 point of armor equals .0068% reduction in damage.
Armor doesn't matter. If you take a hit from a boss you can't manage your aggro, your tank sucks, or the raid is wiping. If you pull aggro on trash you have the new SR, the ability to equip a shield, and two snares to use to escape.

Stamina is only as useful as any given encounter allows it to be. If an encounter has an ability that deals heavy damage you want more HP than that damage. If an encounter has two abilities that do moderate damage you want to have enough HP to survive both abilities because chances are they can be used in succession.

Stamina and armor really shouldn't play a role in your gear selections, although I am guilty of it myself, because you can always swap in items to help you meet the HP thresholds of any given fight.
#5915SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Bladefire
Leather vs Mail Armor

Thanks for the responses.

No, I am not pulling aggo. If I do, yes, I deserve to die, final answer. We have a rule, you pull it you tank it.... doesn't work very well for Shaman, lol. You wipe the party by pulling aggro... you pay the bill.

Just died early on Gruul with other Rogues from the cave ins and what not.. but you all have answered my questions and I can continue on my course to Shaman glory.

Thank you.

P.S. I just wanted to thank everyone for your contributions to this thread. The theorycrafting article, mods (Pawn, Disco Dice), Yo's Sim..... it really helps alot of people. (Ok, I will disappear again. I am sure I will have a question in a few months).

Last edited by Bladefire : 01/01/08 at 2:15 PM.
#5916SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0death_Phobos
t6 Values

Hi
I'm following this thread quite long, but now i have to ask something.

1)High Raid (T6) EP Values

Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2.2 EP

Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18

How is it possible that without Kings Strenght has the Value 2.2 and Ap 1 ?
1.1 -> 2.2
OR
1.0 ->2.0


2) Is Kings not adding effectively 11% strength cause of UR ?
#5917SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
Shaman is a 6 letter word, Shammy isn't a word and is only one letter short of Shaman.
I think someone has a new year's eve hang over Shammy and Shaman are both the same length, the only difference being the last two letters.

And to add some content at least to this post a tip on how to avoid those Cave Ins for Bladefire. While having somewhat higher health and armor makes them easier to survive, the best thing you can do is install SCT and move whenever you see the Cave In debuff pop up on it. That way you should take perhaps a rare few ticks during the fight. Don't be afraid to move out of dps range for a while while doing that.
#5918SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0gorsameth
That is with kings Death_phobos cause your right with 1 str being 2 ap.
As for your second question, this would also make 1 ap worth 1.1 ep. which pretty much screws it up as a baseline. so yes kings adds an effective 11% and not 10 but as 1 ap = 1ep this is pretty much ignored
#5919SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ankha
Addon quetion

Anybody want to share any addons for shammys they couldnt see playing without? I downloaded Enhancer and Disqodice already but was unhappy with all the symbols around the character, should I just give it time and work through the distractions? I for one use another addon called Shamanfriend that gives info on alor of Shaman action in battle. -Ankha
#5920SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Binkenstein
Originally Posted by death_Phobos View Post
Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2.2 EP


How is it possible that without Kings Strenght has the Value 2.2 and Ap 1 ?
1.1 -> 2.2
OR
1.0 ->2.0
Kings adds 10% of your base stats. AP is not affected by this, which means that 1 AP without kings is 1 AP with kings.
Strength goes from 2 to 2.2 AP because with kings you'll have 1.1 str for every point you have without it (thus, with kings it's AP value is 2.2).
#5921SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Quaunaut
Looking through the gem choices I've made in the past I'm suddenly wondering how AP can be so important a stat. Currently I have a 24.73% chance to crit, and 941 AP. If I was to switch out all my full yellow +8 crit rating gems for +4 crit rating and 4 str, I'd lose about .5%, while gaining only 24 AP. Would this truly be a boon to my DPS? That just seems horribly off.

Or is it that there is a cutoff point, where once you get so much crit when raid buffed, the AP overtakes as the important stat(because of temporary buff uptime)?
#5922SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vorda
Originally Posted by Quaunaut View Post
Looking through the gem choices I've made in the past I'm suddenly wondering how AP can be so important a stat. Currently I have a 24.73% chance to crit, and 941 AP. If I was to switch out all my full yellow +8 crit rating gems for +4 crit rating and 4 str, I'd lose about .5%, while gaining only 24 AP. Would this truly be a boon to my DPS? That just seems horribly off.

Or is it that there is a cutoff point, where once you get so much crit when raid buffed, the AP overtakes as the important stat(because of temporary buff uptime)?
Have you considered reading the first post completely and then using Yo's sim abit?
#5923SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• frotes
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
Kings adds 10% of your base stats. AP is not affected by this, which means that 1 AP without kings is 1 AP with kings.
Strength goes from 2 to 2.2 AP because with kings you'll have 1.1 str for every point you have without it (thus, with kings it's AP value is 2.2).
I believe he means that there is a typo because it says WITHOUT kings str is 2.2 instead of WITH kings.
#5924SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Yes the T6 values do include Kings, sorry. Sebudai posted that he had used kings and I had missed it and forgot to update the post.
#5925SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Quaunaut
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
Have you considered reading the first post completely and then using Yo's sim abit?
Didn't think to use the Calc. I've been reading this thread daily(and referencing the main post nearly as often to guildies/friends) for awhile. <3
#5951SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
You click to Purge? o.O
#5952SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Durigen View Post
Always use Windfury if the following conditions are True:
A DPS warrior is in your group
A warrior who is tanking is in your group
A warrior is in your group
If no warrior, more than 1 sword rogue is in the group
Actually I have to strongly disagree with this, for the following reason:

A 2H (MS) warrior, should be using a slam cycle for maximum dps. Slam can't proc WF so they effectively only gain 3-5% more damage from WF, therefore if you were presented with a group such as MS warrior/hunter/hunter/rogue/shaman I would drop GoA, especially if the hunters are BM.

So yeah I don't like this broad statement that dps warrior = WF, is very misleading.
#5953SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Remraf
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You click to Purge? o.O

Uh.. yea? I don't find myself needing to spam Purge that much.. so to have it on a nice big sphere right where my cursor usually is leads to quicker purges when i *do* need them. (I have it hotkeyed to 6, which is sorta far from the main usuable keys).
#5954SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Toots Hepcat
Many of the eternal debates posed in this forum are due to differences in philosophy. It boils down to which is more important to you: personal DPS, or raid DPS.

Personal DPS
Often marked by an elemental off spec.
Will roll on any upgrade, regardless of armor type.
Drops GoA.
Will sacrifice stam/armor for DPS stats.
Will sacrifice int/mp5 for DPS stats.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed 26.4 EP.

Raid DPS
Often marked by a resto off spec.
Will pick up leather only if nobody else wants it, if at all.
Drops WF pretty much everywhere; may totem twist if mana allows.
Wants at least some stam/armor to make it easier for the healers.
Wants at least some int/mp5 to sustain shocks within a twisting cycle.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed the benefit +12 STR offers the entire group.

Most of the regulars here are very raid oriented. Most of the new people are having personal DPS issues, that's why there here. It makes sense these issues would keep coming up.

Incidentally: I am taking my guild's raid downtime to re-evaluate the elemental spec and am noticing a ~6% personal DPS increase. Today is my last day, though -- I miss the faster Healing Wave and bigger totem radius, and I'm seeing more shock resists making interrupts and snares less reliable.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 3:46 PM.
#5955SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by Remraf View Post
Uh.. yea? I don't find myself needing to spam Purge that much.. so to have it on a nice big sphere right where my cursor usually is leads to quicker purges when i *do* need them. (I have it hotkeyed to 6, which is sorta far from the main usuable keys).
I pretty much spam purge constantly when in cooldown on shocks/SS our of habit. On mobs that need to be purged, you have to do it pretty much constantly to catch things quickly, and in PvP I'll moderate it a bit based on current mana and things like Lifebloom. But yeah, I don't think I'd be able to get anything done if purge was used for clicking.
#5956SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Einahpets
I haven't gone through the last pages with a fine tooth comb or whatever, but I was wondering if it was at all possible, since you have commented the T6 content items and EP values on the main post, if you could possibly post which Hyjal/Black Temple gems are best suited for enhancement shamans? Thanks alot
#5957SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
They're obviously the purple versions of the blue gems that are listed in the main post.
#5958SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Actually I have to strongly disagree with this, for the following reason:

A 2H (MS) warrior, should be using a slam cycle for maximum dps. Slam can't proc WF so they effectively only gain 3-5% more damage from WF, therefore if you were presented with a group such as MS warrior/hunter/hunter/rogue/shaman I would drop GoA, especially if the hunters are BM.

So yeah I don't like this broad statement that dps warrior = WF, is very misleading.
Out of interest, how does your MS Warrior generate rage while he is chain slamming?
I know that if I am a couple of seconds slow on my twisting due to having to heal or move some groups around mid combat my DPS Warrior lets me know about it!

However in the group you have quoted I don't argue the use of GoA, although I would personally twist.

Am I the only one praying twisting isn't removed because of how boring Enhance is without it?
#5959SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kasi
A warrior uses slams in between auto attacks. You don't chain slams without due to the auto swing, otherwise it kills your dps. Thus a warrior still gets 20% of his white auto attacks into WF.
#5960SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Joy View Post
Am I the only one praying twisting isn't removed because of how boring Enhance is without it?
Refreshing totems on the run, spamming shocks/SS on the cooldown, watching the environment and your threat and your mana and being ready to Bloodlust/SR/interrupt/kite/splash heal isn't enough action for you?

I mean, it's not like we're Elemental over here.

Have you considered twisting Fire Nova and Searing/Magma? It's worth, like, 40 extra DPS for two actions every 15s and might get your heart rate up. Something to do with all that extra mana you'll have, too.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 6:49 PM.
#5961SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
They're obviously the purple versions of the blue gems that are listed in the main post.
Not really Rob.. at least for me maybe it's opposite for other shamans but :

10 Str > 5 Crit/5 Str for Pure dps.

Anybody in Tier 6 content finding that the 2xSONs (Syphon of the Natherizm) are better then the new S3 weapons for dps ?

Been running it in about 3 simulators & they all show that the SONs are better.
#5962SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
Not really Rob.. at least for me maybe it's opposite for other shamans but :

10 Str > 5 Crit/5 Str for Pure dps.
What Rob meant I think was purple as in epic, and blue as in rare, not as in say Nightseye and Star of Elune
#5963SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Capital
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Personal DPS
Often marked by an elemental off spec.
Will roll on any upgrade, regardless of armor type.
Drops GoA.
Will sacrifice stam/armor for DPS stats.
Will sacrifice int/mp5 for DPS stats.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed 26.4 EP.
1. This has nothing to do with either raid dps or personal dps, it's preference.
2. Again, doesn't affect raid dps.
3. Thats just completely wrong.
4. And so should every shaman, I can't even name 1 time where the added armor from mail would have saved me.
5. Same, mp/5 is way too expensive to award getting some.
6. Ah, well I must admit I changed it early, but thats because the item I wanted to get instead was about to be dissed. 12 str in a group that greatly consists of rogues isn't that great anyway.

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Raid DPS
Often marked by a resto off spec.
Will pick up leather only if nobody else wants it, if at all.
Drops WF pretty much everywhere; may totem twist if mana allows.
Wants at least some stam/armor to make it easier for the healers.
Wants at least some int/mp5 to sustain shocks within a twisting cycle.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed the benefit +12 STR offers the entire group.
1. Again, boils down to preference.
2. Thats just...wrong
3. 'meh, I'd say twisting is generally an aspect of the more raid concentrated shaman, I myself don't do it because I just can't see the fun in spamming buttons, and it generally takes my attention away from important events, such as death.
4. Stamina comes with the gear, It's really hard to have less than 11k health at T5 level with 2 warriors in your group.
5. Int and MP/5 are really expensive stats for our class, you should -not- be aiming for it at all.

This looks more of a good player vs bad player list than a well composed list of playstyles.
#5964SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Capital View Post
1. This has nothing to do with either raid dps or personal dps, it's preference.
Elemental *IS* better DPS, and it comes at the cost of raid flexibilty. The preference stems from philosophy. Thank you for proving my point.
2. Again, doesn't affect raid dps.
If I choose not to roll on a leather item that is an upgrade, I choose to give it to somebody else. That indirectly affects the raid's DPS and directly undermines personal DPS.
3. Thats just completely wrong.
Dropping GoA, regardless of group makeup? I'd call it wrong, but it's still quite common, even among folks who are aware of the theory, even in successful endgame guilds. I know this because I occasionally have to explain to melee from other guilds what Windfury DOES. I can only assume this behavior comes from a desire to personally top the meters.
4. And so should every shaman, I can't even name 1 time where the added armor from mail would have saved me.
I agree, and yet it comes up ALL the time.
5. Int and MP/5 are really expensive stats for our class, you should -not- be aiming for it at all.
I agree -- but one of the main reasons all our gear HAS these stats is that Blizzard expects us to play a more dps AND splash heal role, even though such a role can often mean a chaotic raid. From page one of this thread there have been people who spout the importance of these stats in filling this role, which is why I brought it up.
This looks more of a good player vs bad player list than a well composed list of playstyles.
Hey, it was an idea I had over lunch; a bad lunch. I think that philosophies play a large part in the eternal arguments but maybe trying to codify these isn't as easy as it seemed at first.

How much did your own philosophy color your reading of the post? I tried to explain how opposing viewpoints on contentious issues may be attributed to philosophical differences, and you called them "wrong." I think so too. That's kind of my point.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 7:44 PM.
#5965SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Capital
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Elemental *IS* better DPS, and it comes at the cost of raid flexibilty. The preference stems from philosophy. Thank you for proving my point.
It will not reduce raid damage in any way, it just puts extra strain on the shaman to make sure everyone gets the totems.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
If I choose not to roll on a leather item that is an upgrade, I choose to give it to somebody else. That directly affects the raid's DPS and directly undermines personal DPS.
Reduce your own dps by 5, add other players dps by 5, overall, it's still the same. It's an RPG, without the will to kit your character out, why play?
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Dropping GoA, regardless of group makeup? I'd call it wrong, but it's still quite common, even among folks who are aware of the theory, even in successful endgame guilds. I know this because I occasionally have to explain to melee from other guilds what Windfury DOES. I can only assume this behavior comes from a desire to personally top the meters.
I don't know, I'm generally the only shaman around but I have to say that every shaman I know, knows that windfury is better.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
I agree -- but one of the main reasons all our gear HAS these stats is that Blizzard expects us to play a more dps AND splash heal role, even though such a role can often mean a chaotic raid. From page one of this thread there have been people who spout the importance of these stats in filling this role, which is why I brought it up.
Well, you can see it's mostly removed on tier 4 and 5, tier 6 being un-adjusted as of yet. Though I have to say healing is now a part of enhancement shamans as of patch 2.3. When there is a lot of damage going about that extra burst of healing from a shaman with 1k + healing can save the day. The reduction of the mana cost on shocks actually allows us to do just that.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Hey, it was an idea I had over lunch; a bad lunch. I think that philosophies play a large part in the eternal arguments but maybe trying to codify these isn't as easy as it seemed at first. Still -- how much did your own philosophy color your reading of the post?
People have preferences, it's a game and to a certain extent you should play it the way you want to. Some want to improve their own damage, others want to improve the general raid performance. Neither is bad.

To not turn this into a quotewar, a point from me. Say you have 2 shamans, 1 resto and 1 enhancement. Who would you put with the tank for Gift of Air?
Reason I bring it up, when my guild does/did Morogrim, we would rather have a druid tank than a warrior, makes for some nice soaking. And druids just love agility, so we also give/gave him a Gift of Air totem. In the end what shaman you'd use boils down to if you want more damage or more stability in the fight.
What do you guys think would be the best shammy to sacrifice?
#5966SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Capital View Post
People have preferences ... some want to improve their own damage, others want to improve the general raid performance. Neither is bad.
Which was sort of my point. I tried to clump these preferences together to form cogent philosophies, schools of thought on different ways to play a shaman without playing it badly.

To not turn this into a quotewar, a point from me. Say you have 2 shamans, 1 resto and 1 enhancement. Who would you put with the tank for Gift of Air?
You're moving the resto from a healer group, I assume, and the enhance from a melee group. This means your healers are losing ~35+ mp5 and ~100 bonus healing, which should be way less than 10%. Your melee group is probably losing ~20% due to the loss of totems. I think it's gotta be the healer who moves, unless you have mana issues.
#5967SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0spanko
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
Anybody in Tier 6 content finding that the 2xSONs (Syphon of the Natherizm) are better then the new S3 weapons for dps ?

Been running it in about 3 simulators & they all show that the SONs are better.
I use 2x Syphons and Yo!'s sim shows 2x Vengeful axes to be better. The sim showed 1374 dps with syphons and 1401 with vengeful axes. Another thing a lot of people don't realize about Syphons is that the proc actually hurts shadow priest and warlock dps, it consumes imp shadowbolt charges. The locks and priests in my guild bitch about it constantly.

For reference:
http://spanko.shackspace.com/2xsyphon.JPG
http://spanko.shackspace.com/2xvengeful.JPG
#5968SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by spanko View Post
I use 2x Syphons and Yo!'s sim shows 2x Vengeful axes to be better. The sim showed 1374 dps with syphons and 1401 with vengeful axes. Another thing a lot of people don't realize about Syphons is that the proc actually hurts shadow priest and warlock dps, it consumes imp shadowbolt charges. The locks and priests in my guild bitch about it constantly.

For reference:
http://spanko.shackspace.com/2xsyphon.JPG
http://spanko.shackspace.com/2xvengeful.JPG
This is the biggest myth concerning Syphons. It does not consume imp shadowbolt.
#5969SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
In my case Syphons were on par with the Vengeful weapons. The simulation result was 1504 DPS in both cases.
I suppose I have better stats than you, what made the 0.2 weapon speed of the syphons equal to the dps and stat advantage of the vengeful weapons. A 0.2 slower weapon hits harder with WF and SS. An Orc would make better use of the Vengeful Axes though.
#5970SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ankha
Gear question

I've been doing BG's since I hit 70 (1 month ago), and I got some honor and marks now.

Question: should I be purchasing the Sesion 1 gear?

Or save my honor points for other slots like rings and such that arnt arena gear options.

... I am getting my Arena batteles in, but arena points arnt really farmable as Honor is.
#5971SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aett
Originally Posted by Ankha View Post
I've been doing BG's since I hit 70 (1 month ago), and I got some honor and marks now.

Question: should I be purchasing the Sesion 1 gear?

Or save my honor points for other slots like rings and such that arnt arena gear options.

... I am getting my Arena batteles in, but arena points arnt really farmable as Honor is.
My take on it is to get two cheap pieces of season 1 and then focus on the vindicator gear with your honor. But that all depends on what you want. Do you want to spend more honor in the long run and get an immediate boost in resil? Or do you want to spend less and wait a while before getting good gear? To me having a semblance of survivability is more fun than being patient and waiting for gear.

Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) there isn't much of any choice while gearing for PvP so I recommend just looking at what you can get, how much it costs, and how soon you can get it and then determine what your ideal plan is. Do it with pencil and paper if that is better for you. There isn't really any "better" way to go about it since you're going to wind up with the same gear in the end.

[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ? is probably a better place for this discussion since it's becoming the de-facto enhancement PvP thread. If this answer isn't satisfactory I'd go ask the question again (maybe with a bit more detail) in that thread.
#5972SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
In my case Syphons were on par with the Vengeful weapons. The simulation result was 1504 DPS in both cases.
I suppose I have better stats than you, what made the 0.2 weapon speed of the syphons equal to the dps and stat advantage of the vengeful weapons. A 0.2 slower weapon hits harder with WF and SS. An Orc would make better use of the Vengeful Axes though.
Really? Your gear isn't that much different than mine and I have Vengeful coming out ahead by ~30 dps.
#5973SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gehenna
Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
A warrior uses slams in between auto attacks. You don't chain slams without due to the auto swing, otherwise it kills your dps. Thus a warrior still gets 20% of his white auto attacks into WF.
some do not:

Serida - WWS

amazing DPS, 0 slams.

Not sure why a warrior decide to never slam, seems like a good ability to me when quartz is enabled, but apperently there are other options.
#5974SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
He is using hamstring with WF pre nerf.
#5975SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by Joy View Post
He is using hamstring with WF pre nerf.
Ten hamstrings doesn't seem like that much to me. Shouldn't that number be higher if he was using it instead of slam?
#5976SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kasi
The fight was 3 minutes long. He has top of the line gear. He had a feral druid, had haste 4 times (probably DST), used deathwish, used recklessness and was bloodlusted all on a fight where there is some aoe damage that fuels his rage. I'd be surprised if he didn't pull those numbers considering the cooldowns he used.
#5977SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
The fight was 3 minutes long. He has top of the line gear. He had a feral druid, had haste 4 times (probably DST), used deathwish, used recklessness and was bloodlusted all on a fight where there is some aoe damage that fuels his rage. I'd be surprised if he didn't pull those numbers considering the cooldowns he used.
Yes all it proved is that he could have much higher dps if he maintained a proper slam cycle

edit waaaaay off topic, preaching to the converted etc
#5978SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Seems thread broke 1 mil views :P

Anyways, concerning last few posts -- its a very short fight and all cooldowns used so if fight went 3 times as long his dps would take clear dive. 2 min fights are never good to compare regardless if it is shaman, warrior or any other class. Bloodlust is 10 min cooldown, Recklessness is 30 min cooldown and so on, so it can leave very skewed look from dps point of view.
#5979SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0spanko
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
This is the biggest myth concerning Syphons. It does not consume imp shadowbolt.
Really? I never tested it or anything, everyone just started bitching and I took their word for it. Think Ill grab one of these whiny locks and drag him out to blasted lands.
#5980SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Draco Argentum
Originally Posted by Areus View Post
The math has been done, time and time again to show that WF is far superior to GoA whenever a warrior is present in the group. People have done the math to show that WF is the best MH combat enchant any melee class can put on thier weapon.
But this maths was removed from the main post. A link should be put back, then telling people to go read the main post would be reasonable. At present the main post just has the answer with no backup, no wonder people want to question it.
#5981SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Many of the eternal debates posed in this forum are due to differences in philosophy. It boils down to which is more important to you: personal DPS, or raid DPS.

Raid DPS
Often marked by a resto off spec.
Will pick up leather only if nobody else wants it, if at all.
Drops WF pretty much everywhere; may totem twist if mana allows.
Wants at least some stam/armor to make it easier for the healers.
Wants at least some int/mp5 to sustain shocks within a twisting cycle.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed the benefit +12 STR offers the entire group.

Most of the regulars here are very raid oriented. Most of the new people are having personal DPS issues, that's why there here. It makes sense these issues would keep coming up.

Incidentally: I am taking my guild's raid downtime to re-evaluate the elemental spec and am noticing a ~6% personal DPS increase. Today is my last day, though -- I miss the faster Healing Wave and bigger totem radius, and I'm seeing more shock resists making interrupts and snares less reliable.
This reminds me of the old mentality that so much hurted the hybrid classes in the past. I pick leather as the first one if it means a bigger upgrade to me than to anyone else. AC does NOT matter in PvE as far as melee DPS is concerned, so items should be distributed according to it's stat budged solely.

Plus, as someone has commented previously, getting stam/armor makes no difference at all. If some fight requires stamina you equip your PvP gear to reach safe limits, as you do with SR and so on and so on. At most, you get hybrid stamina gems when socket bonus makes up for it without causing much of a loss.

Getting int/mp5 is just ridiculous, you didn't need mp5 before previous patch neither you do now that shocks cost more than a half less. Basically, mana has never been an issue for enhancement and you better go with extra AP to do more damage / regain more mana. That statement shows how clueless you are on enhancement shaman mechanics. There's an excellent first page where Malan trys to keep stuff up to date for a reason. Please, read it.

At this point there's no need to keep on commenting your post. We can continue this discussion as soon as you get a clue on enhancement mechanics.
#5982SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Joy View Post
Out of interest, how does your MS Warrior generate rage while he is chain slamming?
I know that if I am a couple of seconds slow on my twisting due to having to heal or move some groups around mid combat my DPS Warrior lets me know about it!

However in the group you have quoted I don't argue the use of GoA, although I would personally twist.

Am I the only one praying twisting isn't removed because of how boring Enhance is without it?
Don't know, use uses a white attack/slam/instant attack/white attack/slam/instant attack cycle pretty much whole fight. I vaguely remember him saying something about if his whites don't crit he doesn't do the instant attack cause of rage but he stacks crit upto 40%+ in raids.

In his damage breakdown he usually has about 30% of total damage as slams and only 5% of dmg as WFs, rest is white/MS/whirlwinds.

This is comparable to our other MS warrior who rarely uses slam, his WF damage is about 15% or so of total damage but his overall damage is usually much less than the other using slam.

Theres also some fights, Illidari council/Illidan for example where we rotate out melee for ranged for obvious reasons, so often get a group like rogue/rogue/hunter/hunter/myself, the rogues happily use double poisons + GoA cause they know its better for hunters on those occasions. Alot of the omgomgomgomg WF/GoA comes from selfishness of players, I just adopt the "if more people get benefit from X than Y then drop X" and have never had any compliants.
#5983SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
You have some interessting Rogues there ^^ Mine have learnedd the prefference of WF a long time ago and they woould definitely be bitching if I dropped GoA. Anyway doesn´t matter, cause twisting is about the only thing keeping me from falling asleep during Raids 8)

So go TWIST !!! anybody who´s group makeup is somewhat strange! All of your group members will love you!
#5984SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Durigen
I could be wrong, and apologize if I am. But I believe it's generally agreed upon that the term "DPS Warrior", POST WF nerf, means a dual-wielding fury warrior. For them, with such a huge number of white damage attacks, the WF totem enchant is positively amazing.

If that WWS Parse is from Pre-WF-nerf then the DPS output will be on a level that all but the absolute best geared warriors cannot compare with. Pre-nerf the MS warrior was absolutely devastating. So while most MS warriors that raid, use a Slam cycle between white attacks. Generally the equation for WF totem is designed in reference to modern Fury warriors, and past MS warriors.
#5985SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Urstroyer
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
In my case Syphons were on par with the Vengeful weapons. The simulation result was 1504 DPS in both cases.
I suppose I have better stats than you, what made the 0.2 weapon speed of the syphons equal to the dps and stat advantage of the vengeful weapons. A 0.2 slower weapon hits harder with WF and SS. An Orc would make better use of the Vengeful Axes though.
Have you considered the stat increase on both weapons for your sim? I tested it on my gear too (almost every slot bt/hyjal gear) which resulted in a dps increase for about 40-50dps. if you haven't entered the new stats of the s3 gear your result would make sense to me.

If you trade your dual syphons for s3 weapons you gain the following stats:
-> -32 attack power ( 2x34ap vs. 2x 50ap)
-> +16 hit rating (2x 8 hit rating vs. 0 hit rating)
-> +42 crit rating (2x 21 crit rating vs. 0 crit rating)
-> +98 armor penetration (2x 49 armor penetration vs. 0 armor penetration)

based on the ep values for high end gear listed in malan's posting only the stat gain is worth about 102 ep (weapon speed and dps unconsidered).

i don't really know, how to weight the weapon proc of the syphons but i doubt they would make a big difference.
#5986SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the warrior slam rotation discussion would best fit here - [Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
and not here - Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
#5987SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada View Post
At this point there's no need to keep on commenting your post. We can continue this discussion as soon as you get a clue on enhancement mechanics.
Tradewind, don't start. I was trying to codify the opinions that OTHER SHAMANS have, in the past, posted in this thread and attribute them to some body of belief about how to play a character (so we could avoid fighting over them in the future). I don't hold those views myself, which if you'd check my armory you'd understand. 80% leather, 7500 health, 5000 mana and very nice DPS stats.
#5988SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by Urstroyer View Post
Have you considered the stat increase on both weapons for your sim? I tested it on my gear too (almost every slot bt/hyjal gear) which resulted in a dps increase for about 40-50dps. if you haven't entered the new stats of the s3 gear your result would make sense to me.

If you trade your dual syphons for s3 weapons you gain the following stats:
-> -32 attack power ( 2x34ap vs. 2x 50ap)
-> +16 hit rating (2x 8 hit rating vs. 0 hit rating)
-> +42 crit rating (2x 21 crit rating vs. 0 crit rating)
-> +98 armor penetration (2x 49 armor penetration vs. 0 armor penetration)

based on the ep values for high end gear listed in malan's posting only the stat gain is worth about 102 ep (weapon speed and dps unconsidered).

i don't really know, how to weight the weapon proc of the syphons but i doubt they would make a big difference.
You are right. Checking back my input values I added only 8 hit rating, 21 crit rating and 49 armor penetration, but subtracted only 16 attack power. Anyway the difference shouldn't be relevant. I'll make an other simulation with correct values later today.

The proc of the double syphons are around 2500 damage in a 3 minute encounter (~14 DPS).
#5989SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
The proc of the double syphons are around 2500 damage over 3 minutes (~14 DPS).
Its entirely dependent on how many attacks you can make in the timespan of the buff being active though.
#5990SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the warrior slam rotation discussion would best fit here - [Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
and not here - Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
It seems that they were arguing more wether WF is still better then goa if the war is slamming and not getting as many white attacks. Regardless, wf is still better even if the war is slamming. And just for an answer on why Serida dosent slam.. Slam is a loss of dps giving a decent amount of haste and a 3.5 wep (I.E. Cataclysms edge) Serida's Explination
#5991SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ung
Hi thanks for the posts regarding WF totem a few pages back.

I was wondering if there was anywhere i can find the actual numbers for wf vs goa. I tried the search engine but all the results just basically said. WF if a warrior is in group etc. Which sadly is not enough to persuade the GoA lovers.

thanks.
#5992SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
You can find some of the breakdown here - Windfury Totem Change
Not sure if non-benefactors can access it right now, that's in the archives which are currently not visible to the public for some reason. Results in that thread though showed that warriors still benefit far far more from WF than from GoA. Rogues that are combat sword still get more from WF than GoA, daggers its neck and neck with WF in a slight lead.

This thread http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t15993-p...issues_signup/ was supposed to test this stuff but I don't recall whatever came of it.
#5993SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Ung
Any chance you could PM./ post here the maths? pretty please ?

Last edited by Ung : 01/03/08 at 11:59 AM.
#5994SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Well in the case of Rogues, Vulajin, who maintains the rogue spreadsheets, did some napkin math at the time and showed that WF totem should provide around 85 dps (+ extra energy procs that he didn't model the feedback for) compared to GoA adding around 41 dps. (note that this was all done immediately after the change to WF totem to only proc from white attacks)
#5995SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gehenna
Originally Posted by Tsalrioth View Post
It seems that they were arguing more wether WF is still better then goa if the war is slamming and not getting as many white attacks. Regardless, wf is still better even if the war is slamming. And just for an answer on why Serida dosent slam.. Slam is a loss of dps giving a decent amount of haste and a 3.5 wep (I.E. Cataclysms edge) Serida's Explination
Thanks for the great link Tsalrioth.
#5996SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ankha
Originally Posted by Aett View Post
My take on it is to get two cheap pieces of season 1 and then focus on the vindicator gear with your honor. But that all depends on what you want. Do you want to spend more honor in the long run and get an immediate boost in resil? Or do you want to spend less and wait a while before getting good gear? To me having a semblance of survivability is more fun than being patient and waiting for gear.

Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) there isn't much of any choice while gearing for PvP so I recommend just looking at what you can get, how much it costs, and how soon you can get it and then determine what your ideal plan is. Do it with pencil and paper if that is better for you. There isn't really any "better" way to go about it since you're going to wind up with the same gear in the end.

[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ? is probably a better place for this discussion since it's becoming the de-facto enhancement PvP thread. If this answer isn't satisfactory I'd go ask the question again (maybe with a bit more detail) in that thread.
I wish I was patient enough to wait for better Arena Gear, but part of me wants to pull up a chair and just farm honor and marks and buy the season 1 arena gear and Vindicator gear + rings and cloak. I got on paper all the honor costs and marks I will need for every slot. Then I realised I wasn't lookin at the "Merciless" cleaver as stated in the first post but a regular one and my plan took a crap on me. Now I cant decide if the Arena will work fast enough for me to replace my Fist of Reckoning X2 before I just buy the weaker 90 DPS Cleaver.... btw sorry if im asking and posting in the wrong thread.
#5997SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Let's just say I disagree then. IMO, Leather is a luxury that is going to only offer a MARGINAL amount of DPS increase from your Mail. Some mail pieces are terrible, I'll agree with that, e.g. [Deadly Cuffs] vs [Wraps of Precise Flight], but in other slots the upgrade is really small; [Shadowmaster's Boots] vs [Softstep Boots of Tracking] / [Quickstrider Moccasins].

Don't get me wrong, I eventually do/did want those items, but I didn't mind waiting and using one of the mail equivalents, although they were a little worse. And yeah, of course your own dps DOES matter, but what is the difference between 10-30 DPS for you? What is that going to bring to the raid? Yeah, exactly - just as much as the 30 dps would've been to the raid when it came from the Rogue.


Is it just my weird AEP numbers or aren't Softstep the best boots of them all? at least 20 AEP ahead of Shadowmaster's in my case. Would be nice to know what they look like for other peoples values.
#5998SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Dekkan
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Is it just my weird AEP numbers or aren't Softstep the best boots of them all? at least 20 AEP ahead of Shadowmaster's in my case. Would be nice to know what they look like for other peoples values.
I rate Shadowmaster's as 4.6 AEP higher than Softstep. Not a huge difference, but better.
#5999SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Tiny little bit better for me too. :P
#6000SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0paulg002
I have been reading this thread for several months now. It is hands down, the best reference for Enhancement Shaman and thank you for putting this together.

Several posts have come close but have not actually answered a question I have. (If they are, please send me back in to find it, I would rather just find it 1st than waste everyone's time by repeating already answered questions.)

I have just hit 70 last week and I'm grinding EOTS for my off hand. I have already created my main hander, the Drakefist Hammer. As you know this is a 2.7 speed weapon. From what I have read, the goal would be to have 2 slow weapons but also of the same speed. Right now, I have this. I am off handing The Fist of reckoning. but this is a level 88 weapon and is very out dated. My options for an off hander at level 115 or better with a 2.7 or slower speed are out of the question for me at this point. It will have to be 2.6. This means that I will be using an offhanded that is faster than my main hander. Has anyone done any graphing that reflects some sort of DPS loss as the offhand weapon speed decreases relative to the main hand's?
#6101SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2cerberos
Ty for your fast reply indeed.

I see. So fury in the bank

Because of the fury that have a red gem, (which i put 16 ap), i lost also around to 15 ap with this combination.

Anyway, do you know if the executioner is on Offhand, i have any problems?
#6102SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Illundai
Did anyone reach a final conclusion on the uptime of Dragonstrike? We finally got another Rising Tide this week which I picked up and I'd like to compare the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the sim provides an unreasonable uptime for the proc. At the moment I'm not convinced RT/Syphon is better than my previous DS/Syphon... so, does anyone have an more accurate uptime?
#6103SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Paradox
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Did anyone reach a final conclusion on the uptime of Dragonstrike? We finally got another Rising Tide this week which I picked up and I'd like to compare the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the sim provides an unreasonable uptime for the proc. At the moment I'm not convinced RT/Syphon is better than my previous DS/Syphon... so, does anyone have an more accurate uptime?
Would also like a conclusion to this as i'm in the same boat here.
#6104SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
I would use Fury over S2 Gladiator Offhand. Weighing in the weapon stats, I think that Fury edges out S2 by a small margin. Executioner is also what I'd put on it Grats.
#6105SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhagok
He uses S2 in the MH.

And concerning the MH - OH discussion on Execuctioner. I still think that the Mainhand is the favorable hand to have it on, because the hit that does proc the enchant does not benefit from it, so having it on the OH means your MH will be the first to profit from the Exec proc. and that is a good thing ^^
#6106SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2vorda
Originally Posted by Rhagok View Post
He uses S2 in the MH.

And concerning the MH - OH discussion on Execuctioner. I still think that the Mainhand is the favorable hand to have it on, because the hit that does proc the enchant does not benefit from it, so having it on the OH means your MH will be the first to profit from the Exec proc. and that is a good thing ^^
I assume you mean 'offhand'?
#6107SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Can anyone tell me if DisqoDice watershield works? I forgot the patch was coming today until I read the thread in the public discussion forum (I haven't logged into wow for a couple weeks). So, I did the edits to the lua at my work computer and uploaded to curse, but I have no idea if I did them correctly or not since I can't test. I'd like to have the issue resolved before the big crunch comes when people get off of work/school this evening.
It works but since the water shield now lasts 10 minutes I would suggest that you really don't need the blue bar up the entire time its active. Might be better just to have a red blinking bar when its off or something.
#6108SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
tzenes
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post

Now it may be interesting to set it up like so:

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
and

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
Obviously the 6 (or 5)s cooldown on shocks would mean you are getting off more shocks than SS so the rotation doesn't work out neatly. That's the only way it would work out w/ GCD's though.
Tried this out, it does NOT work. 0 Stonebreaker Totem procs off flame shock.

However, if you do just the opposite

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
and

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
It does proc off of flame shock.

Despite the order, it seems as though the totem will effect whatever ability it is equiped after.

Please confirm this.

Last edited by tzenes : 01/08/08 at 11:03 PM.
#6109SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Binkenstein
The reason that it works for casting is that it is equipped when the spell is cast.

I think Ilmatar was trying to set up macros that equipped the totem for the next action, rather than the current one.

In either case though, I think it'll be a bit hard to manage efficently.
#6110SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
It works but since the water shield now lasts 10 minutes I would suggest that you really don't need the blue bar up the entire time its active. Might be better just to have a red blinking bar when its off or something.
Thanks very much Malan! You can actually do that on your own by setting the alpha level to .01 (or maybe 0 works). I forget how I wrote it, but I'm pretty sure I put in the facility for people to turn it off when watershield was active, and only display full red when you don't have the buff.
#6111SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Birr
I am feeling incredibly weak as an enhancement shaman. I have read the first post, taken notes, and considered the aspects of my class and role before beginning to gear myself. I have been using Enhancer with my personal AEP values and Pawn with the Low Raid values to determine upgrades and gear choices. The problems comes down to the fact that I do not put out nearly the same amount of DPS as other melee DPS in my Kara raid group; unfortunately I cannot discover the true heart of the problem.

I think that it is either, 1) My off-hand weapon is so horrible that it is ruining my overall DPS; or 2) My hit rating is in fact too high and I have neglected the importance of Strength/AP and Crit.

Considering the first point I am currently using [Fist of Reckoning] as an off-hand. I know, I know, I can hear the groans now, but I have had extremely horrible luck in the level 70 instances, and I feel too weak to attempt a heroic or even find a group for one. My goal is to finish grinding out the honor for [Gladiator's Pummeler] so that I will be wielding two of them. I am hesitant to enchant either weapon before I know it will be worth the focus and money I am going to spend. I am incredibly confused because Enhancer is showing that the Pummeler is great for MH but I will get more benefit from [Fool's Bane] in OH. Is this because Fool's has more passive stats and Enhancer is ignoring the DPS difference?

For point two I simply think my hit rating is too high and have a negative effect on my DPS. I'm at 200 hit + 9% from talents but my Attack Power and Crit Rating seem to be suffering. I hit often but I hit for very little. Is this a combined problem between my weapon quality and my hit rating?

I am not asking for a gear check & personalized advice, but my guild has made it to Aran in Kara and I feel that I pale in comparison to our DPS warrior. I bring buffs to the table for him but I think my lackluster DPS is a huge detriment.
#6112SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Atren
OH difference is less than 2 dps which makes it so small difference once you also add AP to it. The stats on Fool are way better and therefor it is better weapon than S1 gladiator for OH. If you have Fool's you can use it over S1, but it is one of those will it drop and will i get it things.
#6113SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
xereva
I am feeling incredibly weak as an enhancement shaman.
You should focus now on AP/str and crit/agi i think. Try to get them some higher.

A nice craftable item which is a good upgrade is for example [Shadowprowler's Chestguard].
A [Gladiator's Pummeler] in your offhand would be great (and don't count on one specific drop to happen...) I would advice to enchant both with mongoose (yes, it is expensive...).

Also focus on you other enchants. Your bracers are 'missing' +12 str, your helm is 'missing' + [Glyph of Ferocity] (34 ap, 16 hit), you legs could use [Cobrahide Leg Armor] (40 ap, 10 crit), you shoulders can use [Inscription of Vengeance] (26 ap), you cloak can user the +12 agi enchant, you chest the +6 to all stats enchant, etc.

So just with good enchanting you can get like 24+ 34 + 40+ 26 + 12 = 136 ap and some crit (and hit).

So don't underestimate the use of good enchants...

Last edited by xereva : 01/09/08 at 4:48 AM.
#6114SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Pitbuller
If you cant get epic red gem [Netherbane] is better than [Fury] for my stat weights(I weight wDPS too. 0.85* 4.24ep for off hand) And dont bother with executioner before you get very high end gear. Its very easy to test with Yo's sim which one is better.(waepons or enchants)

Last edited by Pitbuller : 01/09/08 at 9:59 AM.
#6115SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2adlwow
Originally Posted by Birr View Post
I am hesitant to enchant either weapon before I know it will be worth the focus and money I am going to spend.
Crusader is a pretty inexpensive enchant - under 100g for the mats on my server. Being a bit thrifty I've used that as a temporary enchant while waiting for better weapon to drop (but I didn't bother with enchants at all on blue weapons). Your hit is pretty high - you could try for a different trinket to replace the +hit one. Your dps will improve dramatically as you continue to raid and gain upgrades, just hang in there!
#6116SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Prost
Birr,
I struggled the same way when my guild was in your spot. As Adlwow said, crusader is an easy enchant to farm mats for and get on both weapons. Also, look into getting the Hourglass of the Unraveler from the second boss in Black Morass. When I finally got it, I was noticing a huge DPS increase from the three procs (at least at that point in content). Hope that helps.
#6117SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Birr
Originally Posted by Prost View Post
Birr,
I struggled the same way when my guild was in your spot. As Adlwow said, crusader is an easy enchant to farm mats for and get on both weapons. Also, look into getting the Hourglass of the Unraveler from the second boss in Black Morass. When I finally got it, I was noticing a huge DPS increase from the three procs (at least at that point in content). Hope that helps.
Thank you for the replies, everyone! I'm 2/3 finished crafting the Ebon Netherscale set, all I have left is the chest piece so my funds will be going in to gems and enchants for that; Crusader looks like it will be my best bet until I am able to spend the money on Mongoose. Gear > Epic Flying in my case.

And yeah that hit trinket definitely needs to go. Temporus should be going down a lot more often as I help other people get keyed for Kara. /fingercross
#6118SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Delita
Originally Posted by Birr View Post
I am incredibly confused because Enhancer is showing that the Pummeler is great for MH but I will get more benefit from [Fool's Bane] in OH.

That point is moot since Fool's Bane is MH only.

I had this same issue in Kara until I could obtain enough Primal Nethers for my 1Hed Axe I made from smithing.

Shamans have very little in weapon choices from PvE content until Al'ar and Netherbane (Your hunters will hate you btw) or conversely Rage/Fury from ZA. Your best bet is too keep trying for that S1 Pummeler and as was mentioned earlier, Crusader is a very easy enchant to buy, especially if you know someone that farms LBSes for the AH.
#6119SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
[Fool's Bane] and [The Decapitator] isn't mh only or unique anymore. Item link lies.
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fool's Bane
Thottbot World of Warcraft: The Decapitator
#6120SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Delita
An interesting note I didn't know about, thanks for that.
#6121SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Simian LeSinge
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
Originally Posted by Tzenes
However, if you do just the opposite

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Stonebreaker Totem

and

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Totem of Astral Winds

It does proc off of flame shock.
The reason that it works for casting is that it is equipped when the spell is cast.

I think Ilmatar was trying to set up macros that equipped the totem for the next action, rather than the current one.

In either case though, I think it'll be a bit hard to manage efficently.
How exactly do you mean "manage efficiently"?

If the totem equipping works as Tzenes states, then no thought is required on the part of the shammy to have stonebreaker equip for every shock, and to have increased WF damage for at least some of the rest of the time. All it takes is to macro the equips to your shocks and SS.

The main issue I can see with this at the moment is the possibility of it resetting the swing timer.
#6122SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Sufferings
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Did anyone reach a final conclusion on the uptime of Dragonstrike? We finally got another Rising Tide this week which I picked up and I'd like to compare the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the sim provides an unreasonable uptime for the proc. At the moment I'm not convinced RT/Syphon is better than my previous DS/Syphon... so, does anyone have an more accurate uptime?
I am also interested in this,...I used dragonstrike/syphon currently. I am not so much concerned with the uptime of the haste proc as I am with the difference in the speed of it being 2.7, RT 2.6 and Syphon 2.8. Right now, it seems like I get slightly more OH procs than MH procs for WF with the dragonstrike. I have heard that having RT main hand will give you more MH WF procs, but this is something I want to hear about before burning dkp on both the RT and another Syphon.

Anyways, my dps can be very sporadic because of this. For something like Terron Gorefiend, I will range from 1100 to 1500 dps week to week, without any real gear changes and in the same group with the same group setup.

So ya, anyone here go from a dragonstrike to a RT and/or Syphon MH with preferably a Syphon OH?
#6123SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Durigen
If you feel your DPS is weak...

1) As was said early, get your enchants. They can and will make a huge difference.

Beyond that your hit could use to be cut in half, and that will award you a sizeable increase in AP and Crit. Don't worry about getting 'rogue' or 'feral' gear either. If your getting hit, your not doing your job right anyway (and if your DPS is so low you worry, then your not causing enough threat to pull aggro). Get the items that will maximize your role in the group DPS/Support. Also, watch your attack cycle. Alot of Enhancement Shamans seem to miss the standard rotation.

Stormstrike then Earth Shock, then Flame Shock. Rinse and repeat. Make certain your Earth Shock is taking advantage of the Stormstrike debuff, and your not wasting a charge of it using Flame Shock. Or conversely, if you don't have a raid with Curse of Elements, you can just keep an ES cycle between Stormstrikes.

You might want to look into some of the craftables too, just going into/conquering karazhan means that Drakefist/Dragonmaw is very very good mainhand for you (same with the axe equivalent). It takes a ton of work, granted, but I haven't even looked at another mainhand since I got mine. The haste procc (especially with 'on hit' trinkets like the Hourglass) can be huge.

Also, even if this doesn't help as much as you would wish. Remember the reason that DPS warrior is doing so well, is you
#6124SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Unaz
Originally Posted by Simian LeSinge View Post
If the totem equipping works as Tzenes states, then no thought is required on the part of the shammy to have stonebreaker equip for every shock, and to have increased WF damage for at least some of the rest of the time. All it takes is to macro the equips to your shocks and SS.
That only works for spells with a cast time, as the totem equips *while* the spell is casting. For shocks, the totem won't equip in time to effect it, or will lag your shock while it is equipping beforehand. You could concievably micro it by mashing an equip macro when you have 2 seconds left on your shock, shocking, and then unequipping. But it's really not worth it, and would likely hurt your dps by messing with your GCDs a bit.
#6125SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bluhd Wuhlf
Dont forget the S1 gear is now available through honor and is reasonably easy/fast to get. It is a good jump start for kara as well.

I have had some bad luck on weapon drops, so am using a Emerald Ripper OH still with flametongue (I decided to get my S1 armor b4 a weapon). I have Dragonstrike as MH. My dps could definately be better, but isnt bad. So dont even though you know a slow OH is your goal, dont be afraid to take a kara dagger, especially if its just going to be sharded anyway.

I generally fall in at 6-7 on the dps charts. But more importantly, i try to stay alive. I am grouped with 4 rogues generally when we raid 25 mans, and my totems and Unleashed rage have made a huge difference for the overall raid dps. I count that as part of my dps (value). I guess I made my goal as more of a support role, than trying to top the dps charts at this point.
#6126SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bluhd Wuhlf
Dont forget the S1 gear is now available through honor and is reasonably easy/fast to get. It is a good jump start for kara as well.

I have had some bad luck on weapon drops, so am using a Emerald Ripper OH still with flametongue (I decided to get my S1 armor b4 a weapon). I have Dragonstrike as MH. My dps could definately be better, but isnt bad. So dont even though you know a slow OH is your goal, dont be afraid to take a kara dagger, especially if its just going to be sharded anyway.

I generally fall in at 6-7 on the dps charts. But more importantly, i try to stay alive. I am grouped with 4 rogues generally when we raid 25 mans, and my totems and Unleashed rage have made a huge difference for the overall raid dps. I count that as part of my dps (value). I guess I made my goal as more of a support role, than trying to top the dps charts at this point.
#6127SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Daler
Originally Posted by Bluhd Wuhlf View Post
Dont forget the S1 gear is now available through honor and is reasonably easy/fast to get. It is a good jump start for kara as well.

I have had some bad luck on weapon drops, so am using a Emerald Ripper OH still with flametongue (I decided to get my S1 armor b4 a weapon). I have Dragonstrike as MH. My dps could definately be better, but isnt bad. So dont even though you know a slow OH is your goal, dont be afraid to take a kara dagger, especially if its just going to be sharded anyway.

I generally fall in at 6-7 on the dps charts. But more importantly, i try to stay alive. I am grouped with 4 rogues generally when we raid 25 mans, and my totems and Unleashed rage have made a huge difference for the overall raid dps. I count that as part of my dps (value). I guess I made my goal as more of a support role, than trying to top the dps charts at this point.
As melee DPS, your weapon will have a greater impact on your DPS output than any other gear slot. Your OH should be the very next thing you upgrade.
#6128SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Areus
@Yo! - In one of your next Sim updates, would it be possible to include the Ret pally buffs in the Buffs/Debuffs tab. 3% crit to target with spells/melee from JoTC and Imp Sanctity Aura for 2% more raw damage.

My guild is currently running with a retPally instead of a druid in the melee group and would like to know if you can create checkboxes for thier buffs to the group as well.

Both are easy enough to just manually input into the proper windows. This is just a request.
#6129SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
Stonebreaker totem has a hidden cooldown of 10s, so it's possible that we could get benefit from using the macros I proposed (probably needs some tweeking). I've got farming tonight so, if I remember, I can give it a try since I have a good history of WWS data. I'll look for a drop in Stonebreaker uptime.
#6130SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Unaz View Post
That only works for spells with a cast time, as the totem equips *while* the spell is casting. For shocks, the totem won't equip in time to effect it, or will lag your shock while it is equipping beforehand. You could concievably micro it by mashing an equip macro when you have 2 seconds left on your shock, shocking, and then unequipping. But it's really not worth it, and would likely hurt your dps by messing with your GCDs a bit.
Exactly. It'd be interesting to see if equipping a totem resets your swing timer as well (IIRC it does) which means you're reducing white damage as well.
#6131SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2T.K.
Malan - The hole AEP system is calculated generating weights to stats that we should look after considering the current gear we already have, right?

The end-game AEP weights were generated by Sebudai, considering the best gear currently in game in every slot or close to, so wouldn't that AEP weights be for the next level of gear, like Sunwell gear or alike? Shouldn't we get a set of gear around T6 content but not as good as top-end gear to calculate it more accuratly? I mean, wouldn't accounting the AEP for T6 helm or Forest Prowler be more accurate then using Cursed stats?


Yo - Not sure if it's a issue, but does your sim consider overlapping CDs? Like, when SS and shock get's CD at the same second, does your sim account for the GCD it has to wait before using the second skill? Even if it does or does not account for it, i don't know if would make any real difference in the end result of DPS or AEP calculation, but that's something that just happened to me, so pointing it out...


Malan again^^ - Btw, not quite the main point in here, but my guild consistently raids with 2 enhancement shammies, so i'm almost all the time at a hunter/hunter/spriest/drood/me group. If you guys need data or whatever at setups like this as i saw people asking about...
#6132SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bluhd Wuhlf
Daler - If I could go back in time I would. I figured with my guilds raid needs and setup, I would easily get a weapon before other gear. Unfortunately, zero of the offhand 2.6 speed weapons have dropped for me .... Currently working on arena points for the merciless axe. My point to Birr was more that temporarily a epic dagger from kara w/ flametongue is worth grabbing if nothing better has come along.
#6133SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by T.K. View Post
Malan - The hole AEP system is calculated generating weights to stats that we should look after considering the current gear we already have, right?

The end-game AEP weights were generated by Sebudai, considering the best gear currently in game in every slot or close to, so wouldn't that AEP weights be for the next level of gear, like Sunwell gear or alike? Shouldn't we get a set of gear around T6 content but not as good as top-end gear to calculate it more accuratly? I mean, wouldn't accounting the AEP for T6 helm or Forest Prowler be more accurate then using Cursed stats?


Malan again^^ - Btw, not quite the main point in here, but my guild consistently raids with 2 enhancement shammies, so i'm almost all the time at a hunter/hunter/spriest/drood/me group. If you guys need data or whatever at setups like this as i saw people asking about...
EP value systems are usually calculated on a "how much would I gain from another point in X" perspective, but refer to the values of your gear at the current point in time.

As such, if we use AEP values for T6 best-in-slot gear, we have the values we want to select upgrades on until we get up to that point. This means there will be another set of AEP values for Sunwell gear once it is released.

The second Enhancement shaman can go into a group like that, or the MT group. Either would be a decent use, although the AP buff does not affect RAP.
#6134SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2testthewest
T5 4er bonus worth it?

Hi,
I currently have equipped:

Ranger-General's Chestguard and Shoulderpads of the Stranger

I ask myself if it would be worth it to chance those for T5 Shoulders and Chest.
Both are individually worse than the stuff I have equipped now, but wouzld unlock the 4set bonus (5% more to flurry).

Is it worth the dmg-stat loss?
#6135SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bragor
Somebody start baning people please seeing that nobody from the new comers is reading the first post.

P.S. Nice not even an armory link to see how your stat weights are calculated.
#6136SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by testthewest View Post
Hi,
I currently have equipped:

Ranger-General's Chestguard and Shoulderpads of the Stranger

I ask myself if it would be worth it to chance those for T5 Shoulders and Chest.
Both are individually worse than the stuff I have equipped now, but wouzld unlock the 4set bonus (5% more to flurry).

Is it worth the dmg-stat loss?
Run both combos through Yo's sim!

At the least, you'll need to keep Shoulderpads around for after your break the 4-set bonus.
#6137SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Bluhd Wuhlf View Post
I generally fall in at 6-7 on the dps charts. But more importantly, i try to stay alive. I am grouped with 4 rogues generally when we raid 25 mans, and my totems and Unleashed rage have made a huge difference for the overall raid dps. I count that as part of my dps (value).
No reason you can't be both top of the dps charts AND play the support role.

PvP gear is a ridiculous cakewalk grind, especially if you don't get all hung up about "winning." You should not, however, waste your honor on S1 armor with intent to use it in PvE. First upgrade your weapons, then get the Vindicator pendant and ring even if they don't seem like substantial upgrades -- these are both better than anything in T4, you'll keep them for a long time.

Drinking the right pots and eating the right food is easily worth an extra ~40 dps at any gear level. Enchant EVERYTHING with the best enchants. Use big boy gems, not vendor crap -- Fel Leather gear outperforms a lot of epics with the right gems.

Never been lucky at drops, myself -- I'm decked out in mostly craftables, PvP gear, badge and rep rewards. Last night I put out 1065 dps on the Bear boss in ZA.
#6138SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Wolflord
Originally Posted by testthewest View Post
Hi,
I currently have equipped:

Ranger-General's Chestguard and Shoulderpads of the Stranger

I ask myself if it would be worth it to chance those for T5 Shoulders and Chest.
Both are individually worse than the stuff I have equipped now, but wouzld unlock the 4set bonus (5% more to flurry).

Is it worth the dmg-stat loss?
Im in a similar position (just waiting on a champion helm token to drop), so I calculated the AEP of the additional flurry (5% * 80% uptime). Ive since thrown out my actualy calculations, but the results were very clear. There is no combination of tier5-level gear that is better than 4piece tier5. Even if you use the very weakest tier5 pieces (shoulders/pants/gloves) the 4piece is still better than the best offset gear available. That said you want to get both helm/chest as soon as possible and ditch the tier5 shoulders (which are truly awful) for the stranger shoulders.
#6139SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Elaxion
+ Weapon Damage and Ring Enchants for Shaman

Now this one might sound stupid but i really have no idea and i havent found a post on it, would 4+ weapon damage or 4+ all stats be a significant bonus for a enhancement shaman. i have a 2 trinkets, one from Kara Romulo's poison and Crystalforged Trinket from Reverd Ogrila Again with the + Weapon Damage. is There anyone that can lead me through this? i know Enhance Shammys need a little bit of everything but im not sure how this + damage adds up Compaired to other stats like + hit.
#6140SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
shdrex21
Dont know if people have suggested or tought of this but a friend of mine (Sengiratolom) and i have found a interesting way to twist the Totem of the Astral Winds and the Stonebreaker's Totem to attempt improve dps by an certain amount.
As totems can now be switched in combat using the following macros to A) Equip the Stonebreaker's Totem whenever the shaman shocks. And B) After the shock clicking on the Stormstrike macro to equip the Astral Winds totem.
As the Stonebreaker Totem's buff doesnt dissipate when the totem is changed which could give and DPS increase.

Stormstrike Macro:

#showtooltip
#show Stormstrike
/equip Totem of the Astral Winds
/cast Stormstrike

Earth Shock Macro:

#showtooltip
#show Earth Shock
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem
/cast Earth Shock

Flame Shock Macro:

#showtooltip
#show Flame Shock
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem
/cast Flame Shock

Frost Shock Macro:

#showtooltip
#show Earth Shock
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem
/cast Frost Shock

We hope this information will be useful.

Last edited by shdrex21 : 01/09/08 at 11:21 PM.
#6141SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Phrentic
I tested it 3 weeks ago on live-server. Switching a totem will RESET your swing-timer. Due to the slow weapons u will lose too much white dmg and maybe WF-proccs by switching your totem to get 80 bonus ap on WF. And I tested it with a moonkin druid. It worked very well, but if you cancel the cast, the idol will be switched and the GCD will be triggered and you cant cast anything for 1.5 seconds which may sometimes result in a dps decrease.

I cant belive, that 4 pieces T5 bonus will out perform any non-set epics dropped in SSC/TK. Raid-buffed and potted my dps reaches 1100. The white dmg of this is around 39-42%. Thats about 450 dps. The set bouns is not 5% haste - it´s 5% more haste from flurry. So it will push your white dmg, which is allready pushed from flurry by 30% by additional 5%.

So 450 Dps without 4 pieces bouns will result in (450 / 130) * 135 = 467.30 dps with 4 p set bouns.

Wearing non-set epic will out perform the 4 pieces bonus of about 17 dps in my opinion.

Excuse my english - I´m german ;-)

Last edited by Phrentic : 01/09/08 at 11:37 PM.
#6142SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Welcome to Extra-GCD use.

See the last page or two on why having an /equip line prior to a /cast line is bad (Hint: it triggers something).
#6143SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by T.K. View Post
Malan again^^ - Btw, not quite the main point in here, but my guild consistently raids with 2 enhancement shammies, so i'm almost all the time at a hunter/hunter/spriest/drood/me group. If you guys need data or whatever at setups like this as i saw people asking about...
We've been running 2 enhance shaman a lot lately too for some reason, putting one on the MT group is a great place for the 2nd one, the threat window that opens up is a huge boost for the entire raid.
#6144SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Wolflord
Originally Posted by Phrentic View Post
...set bouns is not 5% haste - it´s 5% more haste from flurry...
5% haste is 5% haste, regardless of whether its from flurry, or from haste rating. Assuming roughly 80% uptime on flurry, and valuing haste rating at about 1.7AEP I see the set bonus as worth about 107 AEP (5 * 80% * 15.7 * 1.7). Now for a worste case scenario we can compare Head/Shoulder/Hands/Legs.

Obviously your AEP will be slightly different, but I value Crit at 1.8, and Hit/Haste at 1.7, with Expertise about 3.1.

In both cases the Cataclysm helm will occupy the head slot, so we're only compating Shoulder/Hands/Legs. Stranger/Searing Grip/Skulkers are my choice of offset loot for those three slots.

Tier5:
Shoulder- 141
Hands- 160
Legs- 200
Total:: 501

Offset:
Shoulder- 195
Hands- 180
Legs- 221
Total:: 596

So the offset items are worth 95 more AEP, 12AEP less than the tier5 four-piece bonus. The shoulders are the only really really weak item, and if you were considering Head/Chest/Hands/Legs (tier5 v bloodsea) then the Cataclysm set is even better.
#6145SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2panny
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
We've been running 2 enhance shaman a lot lately too for some reason, putting one on the MT group is a great place for the 2nd one, the threat window that opens up is a huge boost for the entire raid.
My old guild used to use a Feral Druid MT (seminarca on these forums) with an Enhancement Shaman and Warrior in his group. We did a VR where he held aggro from something like the third knockback to the last.
#6146SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Elaxion View Post
Now this one might sound stupid but i really have no idea and i havent found a post on it, would 4+ weapon damage or 4+ all stats be a significant bonus for a enhancement shaman. i have a 2 trinkets, one from Kara Romulo's poison and Crystalforged Trinket from Reverd Ogrila Again with the + Weapon Damage. is There anyone that can lead me through this? i know Enhance Shammys need a little bit of everything but im not sure how this + damage adds up Compaired to other stats like + hit.
If you can find +4 weapon damage to rings take it. Otherwise use search function.
Ogrila trinket isn't worth much for slow weapons. Also Romulo's inst right trinket choice for us.
Get badge trinket and hourglass at BM.
You can calculate ep for +damage:
[(+X damage / mh weapon speed) + (X damage / oh weapon speed)] * 8.48 * 0.85 (mentall quickness inflation multiplier)

Last edited by Pitbuller : 01/10/08 at 6:07 AM.
#6147SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
testthewest
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
Somebody start baning people please seeing that nobody from the new comers is reading the first post.

P.S. Nice not even an armory link to see how your stat weights are calculated.

Maybe I'm still blind from the last rogue, but does the first post mention the worth of T5 4setbonus somewhere? I couldn't find it.


Big thanks to Wolflord!

I use the statsweightening for T5 level equip. Thats 2 for crit, 1,4 for hit and 1,48 for haste.
I think we are done with SSC and we will only kill Kael a few more time before we move on. So I guess the Chest is the only set-item I may have a shot at-

Last edited by testthewest : 01/10/08 at 8:04 AM.
#6148SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Vohbo
Holding aggro on Void Reaver has a lot more to do with how much of the knockbacks do not affect you than by raw TPS output. On several occasions I have not had a knockback until below 20 % after which it of course switched immediately.
Having an enhancement shaman in the main tank group provides only a small bonus to threat over having a resto shaman there.
#6149SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Ankha
Just a thought

with you all knowing alot more than me, I need some help. Im swinging two fist of Reckoning at the moment. When I get my first Merciless cleaver, should I hold it in my off hand or my main hand for more DPS? I was thinking MH but I know the pesky OH is a source for grief.

[Edit] After comparing it seems a larger benefit to start with the main hand. Leme know if im wrong.

Last edited by Ankha : 01/10/08 at 1:21 PM.
#6150SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
♦ Sebudai
Main Hand. Putting it in your Off Hand would result in a smaller damage increase because the OH deals half damage while dual wielding.

I assume you're asking this question because you're worried about the difference in weapon speeds between Fist of Reckoning and Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver effecting your damage in a negative way if you put the wrong weapon in your MH. As long as both weapons are reasonably slow, a difference in speed between the MH and OF doesn't really matter, regardless of which one is faster or slower. Just put your best weapon in your MH.

Last edited by Sebudai : 01/10/08 at 9:18 AM.
#6151SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Toots Hepcat
Malan -- set bonuses aren't random pieces, they're the baseline gear for each raiding tier. I think they're pretty important.

T5 has been valued elsewhere in this thread...basically, the bonus is worth is 5 * 15.8 * (flurry uptime percentage/100) * your haste EP value. So with 75% uptime and a haste EP of 1.48, four pieces is worth an extra 87 EP.

So:
2 piece T4: +26.4 EP (plus the benefit of +12 STR to your party, ask them)
4 piece T5: 79 * (uptime/100) * haste rating EP
4 piece T6: 70 EP
4 piece PVP: 47.4 * haste rating EP

No other set bonus has any EP weight.

PVP bonus explained: Bonus offers an additional swing with each hand every 90s. With 2.6s weapons, you would make 34.6 swings with each every 90s. It would take 3% haste to increase this to 35.6 swings. So way I see it, this bonus has the same effect as 3% haste would have...though it is obviously not a haste effect.
#6152SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
I didn't say they were random, I said I had no interest in it. Same reason that I haven't listed every single talent in the Enhancement tree and explained what it is and what it does, and here's all the totems and what they do... I don't think its necessary and I think all the tools are laid out that make it understandable how to figure most things out.
#6153SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
I calculate 4-set PVP bonus with YO's sim.

1. Calcualte dps with earth shaker.
1. Calculate dps without it.
3. dps(w - w/o) / dps value of 1 ap.

Set bonus worth 58.6ep with base stats.
#6154SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Gehenna
Agree

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
We've been running 2 enhance shaman a lot lately too for some reason, putting one on the MT group is a great place for the 2nd one, the threat window that opens up is a huge boost for the entire raid.
A second enhance shaman in the MT group is by far the best place to put one.

Assuming you've got 2 warriors in there, he is getting battle shout just like the enhance shaman in the rogue group, so his damage is not subject to much change. In addition, his buffs will increase tank TPS.

Many high end guilds such as Blood Legion FSB and Drow run 2 melee groups.

Tank Group:

Prot Warrior
Prot Warrior
Feral Druid
Enhance Shaman
Rogue

Melee DPS Group:

Rogue
Rogue
Feral Druid
MS warrior
Enhance Shaman
#6155SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2T.K.
My tank's group is not the best place for the second enhance shamy at my raid setup.

Our tanks TPS are normally around 1000-1400 depending fights, so we rarelly have threat issues. We normally raid with salv and that along with classes agro dumb/reduced agro skills make for it.

We raid with BM hunter along with the other hunter, drood and spriest and me in the group, and the hunters DPS is a big chunk of our DPS, so that's why the group setup is made to improve their DPS so much.
#6156SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2pun650
wtb definite answer on weapon enchants.

I'll admit I'm far too lazy to go through this entire site to find info, and the search function on this site does NOT help at all.

5/6 3/4 enhancement shaman, top dpser for this guild, just hit 1850, buying weapons soon....wants to know what enchants.
#6157SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Omaris
weapon enchants

Originally Posted by pun650 View Post
wtb definite answer on weapon enchants.

I'll admit I'm far too lazy to go through this entire site to find info, and the search function on this site does NOT help at all.

5/6 3/4 enhancement shaman, top dpser for this guild, just hit 1850, buying weapons soon....wants to know what enchants.


Mongoose > Crusader > Potency, generally. None of them are wrong, it comes down to personal choice and what your gear favors. Mongoose provides 4.8% crit per proc (and stacks with double procs on MH/OH), Crusader provides 60 Strength (120 AP) at lvl 70 per proc, and Potency is a constant +20 Strength (40 AP).

Some information on Executioner can be found here. Executioner currently does not stack from multiple hands, each proc when DWing will simply refresh the buff. It is unknown if this is intended. Obviously the value of Executioner will increase as you gain more -Armor gear. At entry raid level a shaman will probably gain more from dual Mongoose enchants. At high T5 content and beyond Executioner will be more valuable.

Evidence suggests that Mongoose and Executioner have nearly the same uptime and PPM, around 40-45%. Dual Executioner may have as high as 70-75% uptime, but again, the effect does not stack.
That should answer it.
#6158SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Capital
First page, if you want to know which weapon enchant is best for you, go run the numbers through yo's sim.

Edit: Too slow ;<
#6159SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Karok(EU)
Would it perhaps be possible to get the stats (ap/crit/hit/haste/expertise/ArP etc) noted down that sebudai used to get the results posted on the front page?

If he allready had some expertise any subsequent expertise would be more valuable to people who have none yet.
If he had more ArP his ArP value would also be higher compared to people that have none etc.

Or maybe just a link to his post: http://elitistjerks.com/584821-post5816.html

Last edited by Karok(EU) : 01/10/08 at 8:20 PM.
#6160SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2benvegas
How does this look for LootRank:

Loot Rank
#6161SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Pitbuller
"Evidence suggests that Mongoose and Executioner have nearly the same uptime and PPM, around 40-45%. Dual Executioner may have as high as 70-75% uptime, but again, the effect does not stack."

I think these are very optimist values. I done some test with Yo's sim.
Even with hit cap + 50% crit: flyrry uptime 92% you can get only 40% uptime to single exe or 64% to dual exe.
Even with expertice cap + hit cap + 94% flurry uptime you can get only 42% and 65% uptimes.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 01/10/08 at 9:23 PM.
#6162SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Joy
Originally Posted by benvegas View Post
How does this look for LootRank:

Loot Rank
I get 0 rating for melee crit on that which throws things out of whack.

You also don't include kings into the STR value, and you have AGI as valuable as STR which is near impossible unless you have massive AP and minute crit.


FYI these are the values I come up with for my gear (based on YO's 100k hours)
Loot Rank

WTB SSC >_<


A question or my own:

Given that 3 of our Priests have the Dagger off Illidan it occurred to me that it might be worth consideration, however when I plug it in as an offhand (its 106 dps 1.9speed) I get a higher DPS with WF/WF than WF/FT - is this correct?

Also a solid 100dps loss on double syphons.

Last edited by Joy : 01/10/08 at 11:01 PM.
#6163SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2panny
Originally Posted by Vohbo View Post
Holding aggro on Void Reaver has a lot more to do with how much of the knockbacks do not affect you than by raw TPS output. On several occasions I have not had a knockback until below 20 % after which it of course switched immediately.
Having an enhancement shaman in the main tank group provides only a small bonus to threat over having a resto shaman there.
From what I understand about Feral Druid aggro, alot more of their threat comes from things affected by crit/AP. But this is off topic.

Originally Posted by Joy View Post
A question or my own:

Given that 3 of our Priests have the Dagger off Illidan it occurred to me that it might be worth consideration, however when I plug it in as an offhand (its 106 dps 1.9speed) I get a higher DPS with WF/WF than WF/FT - is this correct?

Also a solid 100dps loss on double syphons.
Quite possible, due to the fact the dagger is a very slow one. A quick speed is what makes FT favourable compared to WF on the offhand.
#6164SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ston
the dagger has a very similar damage range to the S1 Gladiator weapons, just a faster speed. So it's not really that surprising that it's outperforming FT since FT bases its damage on weapon speed, not weapon DPS. The only thing that's probably happening is it's clipping the MH WF procs.
#6165SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2testthewest
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I didn't say they were random, I said I had no interest in it. Same reason that I haven't listed every single talent in the Enhancement tree and explained what it is and what it does, and here's all the totems and what they do... I don't think its necessary and I think all the tools are laid out that make it understandable how to figure most things out.


Maybe it's the best to leave this topic simply in the discussion part, right here.
I never wanted it to be included, but I needed to defend myself vs people that told me, I wasn't reading before asking.
#6166SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Illundai
I've been raiding 2 lockouts with Double Executioner now and I have to say it seems to absolutely have no significant difference from Mongoose/Executioner. Unfortunatly WWS is a bit borked to track uptime with it, so you're gonna have to believe the sim.
#6167SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Rob
Originally Posted by benvegas View Post
How does this look for LootRank:

Loot Rank
No value for crit rating or expertise? Bad.
I'd also set meta = 50, since RED is worth at least that much.
#6168SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
I've been raiding 2 lockouts with Double Executioner now and I have to say it seems to absolutely have no significant difference from Mongoose/Executioner. Unfortunatly WWS is a bit borked to track uptime with it, so you're gonna have to believe the sim.
I did some tests with Yo's sim with your values and all raid buffs.

Mong/mong: 1756dps
Exe/mong: 1755dps
Mong/exe: 1756dps
Exe/exe: 1746dps

You have so high level gear that exe is par with mongoose.
But becouse its not stack double exe is just waste of potetial.
#6169SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
That was the conclusion I came to, Pitbuller. I think that it's well worth having one weapon be Executioner (past certain EP numbers, see previous posts on this), as for which one, I don't think it matters because if the hit which procs windfury also procs another effect (Seen it with DST and Mongoose etc) than the buff is applied before the windfury strikes take place.
#6170SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stigmata
Hi guys, Haven't been around since early November, good to see your still grinding away with the theory crafting.

I haven't logged onto my shaman or even spent the talent points from the 2.3 patch reset, but I'm still interested in how things are going.

My question is to do with expertise rating and what high end geared shaman are using nowadays, as I haven't been keeping up with this thread I am not sure who is still playing and who isn't.

So how much in general do people use and can someone link me the armory of a current gear capped player(s) who are still around please.
#6171SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bragor
To my ever lasting demise I can't got a hold of one viable expertise rated item currently (Unless you can count the neck piece from Badges but I ain't gonna touch one by a ten foot pole ).

I am also trying out Execuitoner (After forking out the cash for it) in PVE content and will provide what numbers I can parse.

<== Check his armory for gear and talents ^_^
#6172SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Nemaa
Hello Stigmata!
My gear is almost complete, missing a [Choker of Endless Nightmares], a [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] and a [Madness of the Betrayer] instead of [Berserker's Call]. I don't feel like grinding two S3 weapons because the upgrade would be minimal (like +10-15 dps according to Yo's sim) and I don't really find PvP fun as an enhancement shaman.

Expertise is really good, the [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is still the top belt. Also [Grips of Damnation] is only a little bit better than [Gloves of the Searing Grip] (has 18 expertise rating, tooltip shows pre-2.3 values).

These are my preferences, I'm waiting for 2.4 to see the additional changes and available upgrades.
#6173SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Illundai
I'm just missing Illidan ring and a Madness really. The only expertise item I feel is worth wearing is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Sadly none of our gear has any Expertise on it, but still has mp5!

P.S: I do have [Bow-stitched Leggings] & [Midnight Chestguard] for those who are going to nitpick. I just prefer to look cool!
#6174SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2T.K.
Well, we're only up to Reliquary of Souls and luck haven't been on my side till here, but i got a couple decent stuff as people around.

At one of our "attune the new recruits" runs, i got a vashj belt. Shame on me that the shoulder AND the gloves with expertise dropped and i didn't grab them.

My armory is down at the moment, although there's much better ekipped enhances around i guess. But if any interest arises i'm Ryla in US WoW.
#6175SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Vohbo
I don't think any of the other expertise items is worth wearing if you have access to T6 equivalent gear no, but at the lower end they are pretty easy to get and provide a significant boost in your dps. I'm still wearing my [Clefthoof Hide Leggings] and am pretty pleased with how few dodges I get.
#SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2automatica
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot View Post
Since Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo doesn't work how do i find out the which items will improve my DPS
Works fine for me.
#6202SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2ChaguraED
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot View Post
Since Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo doesn't work how do i find out the which items will improve my DPS

this is the template I used Loot Rank Forums :: View topic - [template] - Enhancement Shamans
I found that installing the latest version of Java solved this problem. It may help you out too.
#6203SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Weem View Post
You are correct and not your guild mates. Not only is Mask of the Deceiver better than T4, the quest reward Helm of the Claw is better as well. Regarding the gloves, you are also correct. T4 is comparatively worse than many other items available.
The thing to remember about T4 is you probably want to keep 2 pieces of it for a long time. +12 STR is an additional +24 personal EP and is a nice bonus for your group as well -- + 12 AP for each rogue & cat, +24 for your warrior. That's ~+84 AP in most groups.

Helm and gloves are most likely the first pieces you'll pick up to complete the bonus. Shoulders and Gloves are your best bets if you're only keeping 2 pieces.
#6204SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2lizard
alrite so im veryvery sorry if the following question has been asked already but i didnt have the patience to search through the entire thread. my question is the following:

if your WF is on CD and the SS CD runs out, how many seconds of the WF CD are worth waiting with SS to give it a chance to proc WF? it should be theorycraftable and as i see it, the number hardly depends on my gear level at all.
#6205SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhagok
+ 12 AP for each rogue & cat
actually its about 30 AP for a cat, so many people do know so little about Druids, they also get 2 AP from 1 Str but with talents they can push that to about 2,47 ...
#6206SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Jumbotron
I suppose I have a terribly noobish question, but I could really use some help.

I'm starting to accumulate some T5-level gear and Yo's calculator is valuing hit rating at 1.98 EP, yet according to this thread and my current understanding of enhancement shaman, hit rating should be a less valuable stat. Should I continue to gear and gem according to Yo's calculator or is something amiss?

My current unbuffed stats are 1448ap, 27.22% crit, 8 expertise(not rating), 138 hit rating, 30 haste rating and 168 armor penetration.
#6207SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Nothing is amiss. All that is being said is "don't go out of your way to get +Hit." Ever seen a rogue get a new item? He has to juggle gems and old gear around to make room for it to make sure he's not dropping too much +Hit. We're saying that you don't need to worry about that. Don't gem for it, don't go replacing items that have less AP/Crit but have more Hit. Its still valuable, its just not a priority.
#6208SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Mbuzi
I believe you have to manually add in your hit from talents to your paperdoll stats. So if your paper doll reads 7%, add 9% to that if specced for it. That is how I read the following from Yo's FAQ.

Q: What stats do I need to input?
A: Stats from your paperdoll when out of raid buffs. That is stats from gear + "naked" stats + stats from talents. Use buffs page to select your buffs. The exception is Blessing of Kings (if you expect it) - you need both to input your paperdoll stats increased by 10% and turn BoK "on" on buffs tab. If some buffs are missing - input them directly to stats. Boss armor - reduced by all expected debuffs.
#6209SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Blargenheim
Quick question here, I'll make it easy and short. Our current group composition is as follows, Fury Warrior, Feral(Tank) Druid, Mutilate Rogue, the Enh Shammy, and myself (Hunter, spec may vary.) WF or GoA?
#6210SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Illundai
Is getting a decent group an option? If not, twist totems :P.

On a serious note, I'd drop WF I think.

Last edited by Illundai : 01/14/08 at 9:38 PM.
#6211SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2iah
Mut gets nothing from it....only the warrior would....GoA a better choice
#6212SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
The thing to remember about T4 is you probably want to keep 2 pieces of it for a long time. +12 STR is an additional +24 personal EP and is a nice bonus for your group as well -- + 12 AP for each rogue & cat, +24 for your warrior. That's ~+84 AP in most groups.

Helm and gloves are most likely the first pieces you'll pick up to complete the bonus. Shoulders and Gloves are your best bets if you're only keeping 2 pieces.
Another thing to remember is our 'Enhancing totems' talent, which put the bonus to an effective +14 STR, making it even more valuable
#6213SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Blazingwater
A question here for gear:

I just recently got [Fool's Bane] from KZ the other night, and I already have [Gladiator's Pummeler] and I need to know which is a better combo; Bane/S1 or S1/Bane. I see that the S1 weapon has more dps, but Bane has the higher top damage. Any suggestions? I'm running with around 1100Ap and 25% crit.

Oh, and before you club me over the head, know that the simulator's aren't working for me.
#6214SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2seminarca
Top end just means you get the occassional big hit, always consider the average hit before you look at top end. Put the one with higher average hit in the mainhand, in this case it's Pummeler (237 average hit) mainhand and Bane (227.5 average hit) offhand.

More than for not running the sim, you deserve a /bonk for bringing up an age old Rogue myth.
#6215SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Blargenheim View Post
Quick question here, I'll make it easy and short. Our current group composition is as follows, Fury Warrior, Feral(Tank) Druid, Mutilate Rogue, the Enh Shammy, and myself (Hunter, spec may vary.) WF or GoA?
If the feral is main tanking I'd go with GoA but that is a frigging horrible group setup and you really ought to get that changed.
#6216SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Illundai
Originally Posted by iah View Post
Mut gets nothing from it....only the warrior would....GoA a better choice
Yeah, but Mutilate is a shit spec anyhow. Why buff mediocre specs when you can buff one much superior one, which'll probably end up in more dps anyway?

Edit: If Mutilate really ends up closer than it used to do, I stand corrected - I only read the first few pages on most Rogue threads and there the conclusion was that it was ~200 dps less than Combat Daggers.
By the way, personally I'd twist my ass off in a group like that, due to it's uncommon nature - get the best of both worlds T_T.

Last edited by Illundai : 01/15/08 at 8:08 AM.
#6217SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
panny
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
Yeah, but Mutilate is a shit spec anyhow. Why buff mediocre specs when you can buff one much superior one, which'll probably end up in more dps anyway?
Can we not jump to Official WoW forums vitriol here? From the threads around here, Mutilate is comparable to combat daggers and not far behind combat swords. Anyway, Mutilate does gain from WF (it's better than IP or DP) but it's a marginal gain. In that particular group, given equal skill/gear, I would use GoA.



I tanked heroic SV the other week but forgot to post my report in here. Anyway, I did it with using mostly PvP gear. In Vindicator's PvP gear, 3 pieces of Vengeful Gladiator's and a Merciless Gladiator's Shield Wall, I have 12.2k health and 11k armour. Adding in a food buff and Kings, I have 13.3k health and am crit immune from resilence. Since I was constantly being hit, Water Shield meant that I had infinite mana and so instead of using Shamanistic Rage for regen, it was purely a defensive measure. Party makeup was: Elemental Shaman, Fire Mage, Fury Warrior and a Holy Paladin as a healer. The Elemental Shaman was undergeared and the Fury Warrior was offhanding a skinning dagger because he hadn't levelled the right skill for his new weapon. The rest of us are T5 geared.

An Enhancement Shaman that wants to tank needs a Paladin because we get Parry through Spirit Weapons, which comes attached with threat reduction. Without Salvation on your DPS, they'll have to hold back alot, and I thought 5% Parry was too valuable to give up for survivability. My healer never had to pot, so I actually think it'd be better without it Spirit Weapons, though my Fire Mage said he was deliberately being difficult and the Shadow Priest was PvP specced with no threat reduction talents. I frequently forgot to wait for Shamanistic Rage to cooldown before tacking rough pulls and bosses, but it seemed to work out fine.

Spec used was 0/44/17 with a PvP slant (Guardian Totems over Enhancing Totems) but your average raiding spec should be fine anyway. The other noteable choice talent might be Shield Spec over Ancestral Knowledge, which I usually go for anyway, since the mana gains from AK are minimal.

My pull technique was to Chain Lightning and run over an Earthbind, letting me Chain Lightning again before closing in for melee, with spare Frost Shocks on loose mobs to hold them over heal aggro. This was enough to hold aggro most of the time, though Earthbind helped give me time to recover if I did lose it. AoE pulls were also a problem threat-wise, though no one died. I used Windfury Weapon on a Merciless Gladiator's weapon with Mongoose (for the dodge).

The toughest pulls were the Bog Overlords, which required the Elemental Shaman to help heal me, and for some of the heavier pulls, we had the Fury Warrior tank one mob, but since another class with Humanoid CC would've made this unnesscary, I didn't consider this to invalidate the experiment. :P

The first boss (Hydromancer), was a bit tough at first due to the fact we had no banish, and the Elementals are immune to the only threat heavy attack we have, Frost Shock. We ended up having the Fury offtank one Elemental (simulating a banish) while I focused on the other, and kept Frost Shocking Hydromancer to hold her over healing threat. We killed my Elemental, then the Warrior's, then the boss.

Engineer and Warlord were pretty easy, though I had to help DPS water tanks.

Last edited by panny : 01/14/08 at 11:37 PM.
#6218SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
frozndevl
Originally Posted by Blazingwater View Post
A question here for gear:

I just recently got [Fool's Bane] from KZ the other night, and I already have [Gladiator's Pummeler] and I need to know which is a better combo; Bane/S1 or S1/Bane. I see that the S1 weapon has more dps, but Bane has the higher top damage. Any suggestions? I'm running with around 1100Ap and 25% crit.

Oh, and before you club me over the head, know that the simulator's aren't working for me.
Well, simple question begets a simple answer. [Fool's Bane] is main hand only, so that answers it for you.

Panny,

Other than the shield and the minor spec change did you modify any of your gear to max out hp and defense, or were your stats still a result of maximum dps as explained in the thread?

Edit: My bad, I was reading off of the item link which still says main hand. Goes to show what happens if you trust the interweb.

Last edited by frozndevl : 01/15/08 at 10:33 AM.
#6219SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Sebudai
They changed Fool's Bane to One-Hand semi-recently.

Quick question here, I'll make it easy and short. Our current group composition is as follows, Fury Warrior, Feral(Tank) Druid, Mutilate Rogue, the Enh Shammy, and myself (Hunter, spec may vary.) WF or GoA?
GoA of course.
#6220SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2seminarca
It's not, it was changed to One Hand in a recent patch.
#6221SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2panny
Originally Posted by frozndevl View Post
Well, simple question begets a simple answer. [Fool's Bane] is main hand only, so that answers it for you.

Panny,

Other than the shield and the minor spec change did you modify any of your gear to max out hp and defense, or were your stats still a result of maximum dps as explained in the thread?
In the Vindicator's gear (Neck/Bracers), I had [Steady Talasite]. In my head, I had an RED and a STR gem. Merciless Shoulders had double Solid Stars. Chest was full DPS gems, all enchants were DPS enchants except for boots, where I use Boar's Speed rather than Cat's Swiftness. Fairly standard PvP gearing. Shield was +stam of course. The Paladin healing me actually commented that it's harder to heal some PuG warriors.
#6222SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Yo!
+ Added "wait with SS if less than xxx seconds are left of WF cooldown" option. While it shows that it is worth to wait even full 3 seconds before striking with SS, remember that you may miss or be forced to postpone some other abilities due to global cooldown, though you may be able to perform them while waiting with SS. I guess you'll need to substract 1-2 shocks per 2 minutes to simulate that but not sure about it
+ Corrected Grace of Air buff to 88 agi, not 97 like SoE
Originally Posted by Mbuzi View Post
I believe you have to manually add in your hit from talents to your paperdoll stats. So if your paper doll reads 7%, add 9% to that if specced for it. That is how I read the following from Yo's FAQ.
Correct.
#6223SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Yo, one thing we've been talking about in the resto/elemental subspec thread is the need for the sim to take different values of the elemental/resto talent points, so that someone could take 3% extra shock dmg for example. Think that's workable? Maybe some input boxes where they fill in their talents?
#6224SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2masso
hi, ive gotten 4/5 of the season 3 enhance gear now. and the stats there are pritty nice, but i was just wondering since my guild does TK/SSC, is the gear there better then season3 or aint it that big difference?
#6225SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Nemaa
lizard:
As far as I know (and as Yo comfirmed it in his previous post) it is worth to wait even full 3 seconds before striking with SS.
#6226SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Nemaa
lizard:
As far as I know (and as Yo comfirmed it in his previous post) it is worth to wait even full 3 seconds before striking with SS.
#6227SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2masso
could anyone just tell me if i should stick to my season 3 enhance gear or get the gear from TK/SSC? plx plx
#6228SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
Masso read first page. Then use loot rank. Or you can even run YO's sim for your own stat values. Or if you wanna be real lazy use MAXdps.
#6229SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by lizard View Post
if your WF is on CD and the SS CD runs out, how many seconds of the WF CD are worth waiting with SS to give it a chance to proc WF? it should be theorycraftable and as i see it, the number hardly depends on my gear level at all.
You're right, it shouldn't depend on your gear. And oh look, Yo has added this functionality. Thanks man.

I took the default stats, BUT added 20 shocks/2 minutes.

Wait 0s: 1147
Wait 1s: 1155
Wait 2s: 1160
Wait 3s: 1161

So hey, best case scenario you get 1.2% additional DPS by waiting your stormstrikes.

However, let's consider if you missed a SINGLE shock as a result of it:

Wait 3s, 19 shocks/minute: 1150.

You just lost most of your benefit.

One of the best things a shaman can do to optimize his DPS post-MQ is to hit shocks on the cooldown. If you're able to do this while also sleeping SS when you can do so without affecting your WF cycle, well you're in a hard to simulate but probably best-case mode.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/15/08 at 1:13 PM.
#6230SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2frozndevl
Originally Posted by panny View Post
In the Vindicator's gear (Neck/Bracers), I had [Steady Talasite]. In my head, I had an RED and a STR gem. Merciless Shoulders had double Solid Stars. Chest was full DPS gems, all enchants were DPS enchants except for boots, where I use Boar's Speed rather than Cat's Swiftness. Fairly standard PvP gearing. Shield was +stam of course. The Paladin healing me actually commented that it's harder to heal some PuG warriors.
Do you think that a shaman could offtank a raid in Kara or did this only work for you because you are very highly geared and it was only a 5-man, granted it was a heroic? I ask because I never really want to turn my enhance shaman into a resto or elemental spec, but having an option to be a tank some of the time would be interesting and offer some variety.
#6231SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Durigen
Well, I think a Resto-Shaman would be able to tank better than Enhancement (assume the Enhancer didn't take Anticipation). Thanks to Earth Shield and a physical Shield your survivability would be much higher (not to mention there's lots of very good healing mail, as opposed to mostly DPS leather). The biggest problem would be aggro. WF on your weapon, Frost Shock every chance you get... I would still think it's a bad idea unless your team is overgeared and your tanking the little things. Like some of the random little guys near the Philanthropists.
#6232SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2drats
Originally Posted by frozndevl View Post
Do you think that a shaman could offtank a raid in Kara or did this only work for you because you are very highly geared and it was only a 5-man, granted it was a heroic? I ask because I never really want to turn my enhance shaman into a resto or elemental spec, but having an option to be a tank some of the time would be interesting and offer some variety.
In pvp gear I can offtank some of Kara, but there are certain mobs that hit entirely too hard to be tanked by a shaman. This isn't really any different from the heroics. Resto isn't better for tanking because of Shamanistic Rage, losing parry, and having to heal yourself (can't dodge).
#6233SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yo, one thing we've been talking about in the resto/elemental subspec thread is the need for the sim to take different values of the elemental/resto talent points, so that someone could take 3% extra shock dmg for example. Think that's workable? Maybe some input boxes where they fill in their talents?
Concussion, Reverberation & Nature's Guidance would be the one talents we'd need to specify points for.
#6234SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Unaz
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
You're right, it shouldn't depend on your gear. And oh look, Yo has added this functionality. Thanks man.

I took the default stats, BUT added 20 shocks/2 minutes.

Wait 0s: 1147
Wait 1s: 1155
Wait 2s: 1160
Wait 3s: 1161

So hey, best case scenario you get 1.2% additional DPS by waiting your stormstrikes.

However, let's consider if you missed a SINGLE shock as a result of it:

Wait 3s, 19 shocks/minute: 1150.

You just lost most of your benefit.

One of the best things a shaman can do to optimize his DPS post-MQ is to hit shocks on the cooldown. If you're able to do this while also sleeping SS when you can do so without affecting your WF cycle, well you're in a hard to simulate but probably best-case mode.

Nice post, I hadn't done the math on this myself, but have been timing my SS outside the cooldown for a while now. Often at the cost of a perfect shock rotation.

I'm going to try stormstriking every cooldown unless I just shocked for a bit and see if it's any noticeable improvement. Should be easier to maintain at least.
#6235SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2panny
Originally Posted by frozndevl View Post
Do you think that a shaman could offtank a raid in Kara or did this only work for you because you are very highly geared and it was only a 5-man, granted it was a heroic? I ask because I never really want to turn my enhance shaman into a resto or elemental spec, but having an option to be a tank some of the time would be interesting and offer some variety.
You won't be able to tank boss level mobs due to crushing blows. Also, in a raid, you're more likely to have the buffs/debuffs that boost raid damage so much -your dps would have to hold back. You need a 'proper' offtank like a DPS warrior for bosses anyway, there's little reason to take over on trash (though it can be done). The closest you'll likely get to offtanking on bosses in Kara is probably Morroes or Wizard of Oz.
#6236SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Mox
Originally Posted by panny View Post
You won't be able to tank boss level mobs due to crushing blows. Also, in a raid, you're more likely to have the buffs/debuffs that boost raid damage so much -your dps would have to hold back. You need a 'proper' offtank like a DPS warrior for bosses anyway, there's little reason to take over on trash (though it can be done). The closest you'll likely get to offtanking on bosses in Kara is probably Morroes or Wizard of Oz.
Kael'Thas!! I always used to pull aggro on the mace and just tank it rest of the way.

But let's be honest, tanking should be the last thing a shaman should do.. we don't want blizzard to get the idea people actually want these useless talents so they never change them.
#6237SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Blargenheim
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
If the feral is main tanking I'd go with GoA but that is a frigging horrible group setup and you really ought to get that changed.
We only run Kara atm, so it's not as bad as one would think. I would prefer the rogue to be combat swords, but he likes his daggers. Basically since Kara is only a 10 man we compile the best synergized groups possible, there arent any other better options. Other grp is spriest, 2 pallies, lock and the other tank (warrior). Had to put the warrior somewhere and the feral druid just got more benefit from, and benfitted more to, the melee group.
#6238SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhut
Wasn't in the main post and I would prefer not to scroll thru 250 pages of text to find it...

Is there an AEP value agreed upon for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond?

Or is this able to be calculated? I'm open to the fact that it's crit based and the value can vary, I just want to be able to figure it out.
#6239SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Skiace
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
That's the thing, you are claiming bidding rights on 2 armor proficiencies. I bet you wouldn't like it if the warriors and ret paladins started bidding on your mail either :P.
They do when it's an upgrade, and I don't have a problem with that.

Originally Posted by Rhut View Post
Wasn't in the main post and I would prefer not to scroll thru 250 pages of text to find it...

Is there an AEP value agreed upon for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond?

Or is this able to be calculated? I'm open to the fact that it's crit based and the value can vary, I just want to be able to figure it out.
There was some discussion with numbers a month or so ago and I think it was around ~70 AEP in most cases.

Last edited by Skiace : 01/16/08 at 3:09 AM.
#6240SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Rhut View Post
Wasn't in the main post and I would prefer not to scroll thru 250 pages of text to find it...

Is there an AEP value agreed upon for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond?

Or is this able to be calculated? I'm open to the fact that it's crit based and the value can vary, I just want to be able to figure it out.
Run Yo's with RED proc enabled. Note DPS.
Run Yo's with RED proc disabled. Note DPS.
Estimate AP you must add to make low DPS equal high DPS. Run Yo's with AP added and proc disabled.
Refine estimate and repeat.

(Commonly agreed upon value is 50-80 AP, I believe that the low number counts just the proc and the high number counts the agility as well.)
#6241SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhut
Thanks. I was debating on using a [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] instead of my cyclone helm but didn't want to drop the meta.
#6242SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Yo!
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Run Yo's with RED proc enabled. Note DPS.
Run Yo's with RED proc disabled. Note DPS.
Estimate AP you must add to make low DPS equal high DPS. Run Yo's with AP added and proc disabled.
Refine estimate and repeat.

(Commonly agreed upon value is 50-80 AP, I believe that the low number counts just the proc and the high number counts the agility as well.)
Another, faster way to get EP for RED proc (or any other proc or item) is:
1) Run sim with RED proc "on". Note DPS1.
2) Run sim with RED proc "off". Note DPS2.
3) EP of RED proc for person without RED = (DPS1-DPS2)/(DPS value of 1 EP from second sim run)
Add your EP value for agi on RED to get item's tota EP scorel.

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yo, one thing we've been talking about in the resto/elemental subspec thread is the need for the sim to take different values of the elemental/resto talent points, so that someone could take 3% extra shock dmg for example. Think that's workable? Maybe some input boxes where they fill in their talents?
Will do.
#6243SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
RED ep value go down a bit becouse you have to use two blue gems. If there isnt hot socket bonus its -22ep for epic gems and -17.6 for normal gems.
#6244SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Rhut
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
RED ep value go down a bit becouse you have to use two blue gems. If there isnt hot socket bonus its -22ep for epic gems and -17.6 for normal gems.
At high end there's a blue socket open in chest and belt. Both of these items have either AP or agi/crit socket bonuses.

Items that come to mind...

[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Belt of the Black Eagle]
[Bloodsea Brigand's Vest]
[Midnight Chestguard]

then there's always these...
[Bow-stitched Leggings]


Personally I prefer to meet socket bonuses as long as it's crit-agi/str-ap/hit. I know some shamans that socket for all +Str and have maybe 30-50 ap more than me, but they've also got 3% less crit than I do. I like having a balance of stats.

Last edited by Rhut : 01/16/08 at 7:39 AM.
#6245SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
Those all items still yield very minor ep loss without str gems.
#6246SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhut
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you agreeing with me? Are you saying that I wouldn't lose much EP if I kept the socket bonuses in those items? If so, then I believe we're in agreement. If not, to each his own I guess. Like I said earlier, I like balancing my stats.
#6247SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2SFACER
OK, I think I'm mildly retarded, because I can't work this out and I've read everything including the front pages thoroughly.

I'm an Orc, I have a [Netherbane] and a [Rising Tide] both mongoosed. The other night a [Syphon of the Nathrezim] dropped, and because I have a few T4 armour pieces I didn't want to put myself rock bottom of dkp behind all the Hunters and rogues and wait an enternity to upgrade armour and ,therefore , passed on it.

I also explained I'd lose my Orc racial on the [Netherbane], bit of a cop out really.

So, have any Orc's compared these 2 weapons, what is the overall dps difference. Simulators are blocked for at work, but I guess the proc makes it impossible to measure, but I'd like some opinion/input please.

It's playing on my mind that maybe I should have just grabbed it, have I passed on a minimal or major dps upgrade?
#6248SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Sebudai
Pretty sure Netherbane is better than Syphon for orcs by a decent margin. The orc racial is really good, so that wasn't a cop out. Expertise blows every other stat out of the water once you're in T6 quality gear(can see its ridiculous EP value based off of my gear on the first page.) I'd have used 2x Rising Tide if I could have back when there weren't S3 axes. It's easy to figure out which is better using the simulator though, so I'd just run that when you're not at work.
#6249SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2panny
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
RED ep value go down a bit becouse you have to use two blue gems. If there isnt hot socket bonus its -22ep for epic gems and -17.6 for normal gems.
Don't forget [Shifting Tanzanite]
#6250SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Sengiratolom
sorry if this asked before.

i was wondering if it was possible to make a macro that resets when either of these criteria are met: target switching, out of combat, you press shift together with your macro hotkey

and that build into

#showtooltip
#show Stormstrike
/atack
/castsequence reset=10 Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Earth Shock

thanks alot
#6326SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Blazingwater View Post
Any chance you can post spell rotations with the 0/45/16 build and the 16/45/0 build? I know what my spell roation is with the resto sub-spec, but I'm sure people would want to know a roation with totem-twisting or the ele sub-spec. Thanks in advance.
This is still being worked out and hotly debated in the other thread.
#6327SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2qualia
Originally Posted by Nobunda View Post
Something that has been tugging at me lately... and my lack of knowledge with warriors has kept me from saying anything to our dps lead.

My question is... Does Heroism benefit a MS warrior more or a Enhancement shaman? Im always the one getting moved to another group for our resto/ele shamans to pop there heroism for melee. If our warrior was DW then I would have no beef as it makes as much sense as me having it as well. However having a 3.5+ weapon swing faster for 45sec doesnt make as much sense as having two 2.6-2.8 weapons recieving the same love. Anyone know of a way I could calculate his DPS gain to our DPS gain from heroism? Or am I just being selfish and shouldnt even bother????
For us, the Feral is the one that gets switched out. He benefits the least from BL I think.
#6328SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Sebudai
I always swap out the feral druid for Bloodlust. Or if the group has 3 rogues instead of 2 rogues and a druid I'll swap myself out. I don't like swapping our warrior out because it removes Battle Shout(at least temporarily.) As far as I know Bloodlust is still great for an arms warrior. It affects the cast time of Slam and reduces the global cooldown.
#6329SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
reduces the global cooldown.
This was proven to be false a few months ago. It does not change the GCD.
#6330SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Atren
As far as i know it does reduce global cooldown, but normal haste items do not affect it.
#6331SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Wraithlin
No, no, NO!
It has been proven, and it is a simple test, that bloodlust does not change the GCD.
#6332SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Galine
Hey, I've been following the topic pretty close, and was starting to think on how to improve my gear. The only thing I'm hesitant on is giving up my pure str stats for gear with higher AP - since, in raids and almost every group I am in, I have kings and salvation (we have a hell of a lot of paladins). Once I get my Vinidicator's neck with a str/crit gem, I'll be gemming up my T4 shoulders with an additional 8str gem. Also as was mentioned earlier, the T4 str bonus to the totem makes a huge difference with me, and I find that pretty valuable. What are your opinions on this and should I worry that much about the T4 bonus, or just go with the rogue badge rewards (other than the boots as I'm a pretty big fashion whore and they look really dumb on females).

Edit: Spelling... these keyboards at work suck, lol.

Edit 2: Forgot to mention, we're currently stuck at a cleared Kara, and can clear the first chest in ZA, with the 4 avatars down, as well as High King Maulgar... so, that's pretty much where my gear choices generally fall in to place.

Last edited by Galine : 01/20/08 at 2:43 PM.
#6333SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
As far as i know it does reduce global cooldown, but normal haste items do not affect it.
We have a fair amount of evidence showing that it does not affect the GCD.

If you have proof to the contrary, document it and post it, otherwise stop posting claims like that.
#6334SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rava
Originally Posted by Galine View Post
Hey, I've been following the topic pretty close
Really? Admittedly I haven't been keeping up much on the thread but I can recall multiple discussions of the T4 2 piece and it's value within the last week. I'm glad that you found the thread and are trying to improve your character, but please take some time to use the "search this thread" function in the top right hand corner so the same question doesn't get asked for the thousandth time. If anything is unclear after that I'd be happy to help and answer you to the best of my ability.
#6335SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Galine
Edit: Yeah, I did find something, more or less gear suggestions for replacements and values for the set bonus which I wasn't exactly aiming for. The T4 set bonus wasn't really the main factor I was trying to address, more along the lines of the potential gain from kings. Guess I'll have to try the simulator later to see how much potential loss/gain I get from swapping out my other Str gear for AP pieces... too bad the site can't be proxied to at work. Math is really not my friend, at all... heh.

I'll post again if I'm confused, haha... thanks =)

Last edited by Galine : 01/20/08 at 6:17 PM. Reason: I'm dumb.
#6336SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Itchen
Odd AEP numbers

My alt is an Enhancement Shaman and I am currently working on making him raid worthy on the off chance we end up needing another. I have been following this thread since before I even rolled him. My gear is middle of the road. Some Kara pieces, Ebon Netherscale Breastplate, Swiftstrike Shoulders and several instance blues. I was using Yo's simulator to try obtain my current AEP values. I got some very unexpected results based on what I was expecting from the first post.
  • Crit - 1.4
  • Hit - 1.19
  • Haste - 1.19
  • Armor Penetration - 0.19
  • Agility 1.24
  • Expertise Rating - 2.21
I wanted to find out if these numbers were accurate or if I had entered something wrongly on the simulator. I took paper doll AP, Hit rating converted to % + 9% from talents, Haste % went with the base 4400 Boss armor. I ran the simulation with no buffs besides GoA and SoE. Since the DPS I got was substantially higher then what I see in game and I had the odd AEP values I feel like I must have done something wrong.


I'll include an armory link for reference. I know I can get better DPS by switching some +4 Str +6 Stam gems out, and that I need to get an enchant on my off-hand. Kaltad
#6337SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Wolflord
That makes sense, your AP is still pretty low. The low AEP is really just highly rating AP/str. Generally AP is universally useful and its only the difference between hit/crit/haste that really determines gear choices. You really dont find crit/hit becoming highly rated until over 1600 base AP.
#6338SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Itchen
Thank you for the quick reply. That makes sense. I just thought it was a little odd considering the entry level AEP's given on the front page. Now that I think about it, a lot of the shamans (starting Kara) I've been seeing around have AP equivalent to mine but with much lower crit and hit ratings. So the simulator is basically telling me that crit/Agi is becoming much less valuable as I approach 100% UR uptime and 75% flurried hits.
#6339SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Toots Hepcat
The added value of crit from proc uptimes is less than the value of the dps from more critical strikes. It's not going to
cause a major fall-off in the value of any one stat.

It all comes down to buffs -- most of our simulations include BS and BoM, which together add 667 AP. You, in turn, have added 3.52% crit that most simulations don't factor in. More crit and less AP will devalue crit and value AP, which is exactly what you see.

People tend to ignore buffs when they list their simulation values, and I wish they'd stop it. Buffs change EP values dramatically.

Your stats aren't that strange, and if this shaman is for farming or PUGs you've actually got the right EP numbers in front of you.
#6340SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Tuili
Fast FT dagger OH

Yeah like we haven't discussed this before...

I use the gladiator 2.60 1h mace (~91dps) as main hand with windfury and until I get another one for my off-hand I'm using a 1.8 ~80dps dagger with flametongue. Now, what if I went for the 1.4 ~91dps dagger instead?

The WF proc is 20% which means that after the 3 sec CD I will get a WF effect every five hits. Here's the thing: with 2.6 speed I will only "waste" one hit during the CD and that will make an average of 6 hits per proc. I've used recount (ace2 addon) and found that my average WF proc is around 1300 dmg (don't laugh^^) Now six hits with flurry = 6x1.82 sec = 10,92 sec average per WF proc which means WF will add 1300/10,92 = 119 dps

My flametongue off-hand adds roughly 80 dps (recount). Total dps buff for my current WF / FT ~ 200dps

If I go for WF / WF instead this will happen: After a proc I will have three hits within the CD (if MH procs it'll be OH, MH, OH)

The WF proc rate when dual wielding is supposedly 36% (according to this thread) which means I will have 3 hits within the CD then an average of three hits before I get another proc. That next proc has a 50% chance of being a MH one. If it's an OH proc it'll be much lower (~700 says my recount when using the mace in OH).

(1300+700) / 2 = 1000 average proc when dual wielding. This will happen every sixth hit (3 hits within CD, three on average for the proc). With flurry that's 6x0,91 = 5,46 sec. Rendering the total WF dps buff 1000/5,46 = 183 dps

Because of the fact that the off-hand eats half of the procs it seems better to just use WF on the MH and always get the 100% WF effect and use FT on a fast OH instead.

Reflections on this? I'm not saying this is correct, but I'd like someone to tell me exactly why WF WF is sooooo much better.
#6341SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
2



Extra



Hits

If you could imbue your johnson with Windfury, it would boost your DPS, even if it stole both MH and OH procs.
#6342SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Dariusx
dont forget about stormstrike - which will have much more benefit if your 2 weapons are slow.
and the better your gear the better wf will scale - ft not.
#6343SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2drats
Originally Posted by Tuili View Post
Reflections on this? I'm not saying this is correct, but I'd like someone to tell me exactly why WF WF is sooooo much better.
If by 'someone' you mean 'section IV of the original post', then here's the link: Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

--

Just out of curiosity, does the WF cooldown affect WF totem hits as well? If not, my idea is that someone could make a mod to remove MH WF during the cooldown and drop the totem, then remove the totem buff and reapply WF when the cooldown was over. Just for fun that is, I don't think it would be feasible at all in raids.
#6344SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
Windfury Totem is only 1 extra hit. If it applied to the off hand it might be worthwhile, but it's been tested and it's no good (see 1st post )
#6345SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rava
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
Windfury Totem is only 1 extra hit. If it applied to the off hand it might be worthwhile, but it's been tested and it's no good (see 1st post )
That isn't what he's saying. He is saying that inside of the 3 second cooldown remove WF from your weapon and drop a WF totem, then reapply WF after the cooldown is up.
#6346SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
♦ Toots Hepcat
This is an insane concept that infuriates and intrigues me.

Some things to think about
- you'd have to not be GCD when WF procs.
- you'd have to be within the rare window where you neither have an SS coming, a shock coming or a totem to drop in the next 3s, else you'd be reducing your damage from other areas.
- you'd have to macro the "clicking off" of the totem's buff along the re-application of the standard buff. Assuming it CAN be clicked off; I've never tried.
- you'd have to be able to manage these two actions and their GCDs within the confines of a 3s window.

My cycle is complex enough as is, thanks.

Also, fast daggers suck, mate. Just ask all the fast dagger shamans I've annihilated on the meters. Your math is flawed in a couple ways...for one, 3 hits between WF procs is not the average with dual WF. Your chance of getting WF the first hit outside of the cooldown is 36%, in one of the first two hits is 59%. Thus your "average" hits before proc outside the cooldown is going to be less than 2. For another, single WF has an outside of CD proc chance of 20%. By going WF/FT, you may actually decrease the WF dps from your main hand.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/21/08 at 6:23 PM.
#6347SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Tuili
Ok I'm convinced. I'll just go grind those extra nine thou honor I need for the unfairly expensive off-hand (one hand) mace Thank you for the info!
#6348SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
- you'd have to macro the "clicking off" of the totem's buff along the re-application of the standard buff. Assuming it CAN be clicked off; I've never tried.
It can be clicked off. I've made the mistake of forgetting to reapply the weapon buffs while clearing trash before. Drop my totems and see the phase "Extra Attack!" on SCT. Remove totems, click off buff, apply real buffs, redrop totems.

But as Ilmatar said, the totem is only 1 attack, the weapon buff is 2. More damage = better, that's the whole point of this thread, right? If the totem affected the offhand, it would still be worse than the weapon buff.
#6349SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stopokingme
Originally Posted by stabbymcgee View Post
Remove totems, click off buff, apply real buffs, redrop totems.
You can also just click off the buff and just recast windfury weapon fast.
#6350SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Kirion
Originally Posted by Stopokingme View Post
You can also just click off the buff and just recast windfury weapon fast.
It's easier to use macro with /cancelaura. I don't think you can cast weapon buff fast enough without macro and i don't know if you can cancel wf totem buff.
#6401SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
It would depend on the outcome of the stats... If the difference was just that 2.2 EP vs. the 20 hit... No, I wouldn't. But to lose 16 EP for 17 hit... Not worth it in my opinion. If I were to give hit a value and try to evaluate stats with it... I'd say MAYBE... .75 But for me, I really just look at the outcome. If an item is way ahead in raw stats, I'm not giving that up for hit. I just don't see any justification for it.

Another Note: In my final setup (if you're using Shoulderpads of the Stranger), a Shaman would have 9 Expertise and 124 Hit. which even the pro-hit fiends would enjoy.
So you agree that a certain amount of the "lesser stat" will trump 1 of our best stat. My next question for you is how much hit rating would it take to outweigh 1 strength for you. And once you've answered that question my next question would be, what are you even basing your conclusions on?

I'm not sure why you would agree with and use the accepted EP values for things like CR, Agi, Str etc. only to arbitrarily discount the accepted EP value of hit rating. You're basically telling math to go fuck itself.
#6402SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
You're taking what I've written in the OP to an extreme, like "to the moon" extreme.
#6403SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by berg View Post
No one here are pro-hit fiends. You are anti-hit and have provided nothing resembling data to support your stance.

You are effectively telling everyone to agree that 0.8 and 0.0 represent the same value.

I do not care what gear you put on your character but expecting everyone to assign a value of 0 to hit is completely absurd.
I don't expect that. I'm simply saying that valuing a commonly agreed lesser stat equal with Agility is ridiculous. As such, I simply ignore it, and the results I've experienced have been very positive. I'm not saying it's the end-all be-all of theories, but it's almost as ludicrous as having a section on the site explaining how hit should not be valued as high as pure stats, then doing the exact opposite in stat evaluations.
#6404SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
I agree with Don Alejandro's over boneweave, but mainly because of the flavor text.
#6405SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
I don't expect that. I'm simply saying that valuing a commonly agreed lesser stat equal with Agility is ridiculous. As such, I simply ignore it, and the results I've experienced have been very positive. I'm not saying it's the end-all be-all of theories, but it's almost as ludicrous as having a section on the site explaining how hit should not be valued as high as pure stats, then doing the exact opposite in stat evaluations.
Your argument is ridiculous, not the stat weights. As Sebudai said, you're taking your "feelings" as facts, and saying the math can go fuck itself.

I challenge you to find any place where I or Yo or Disquette or Rob or Sebudai have said that Hit rating is "a lesser stat."

You say "sacrificing 17 hit isn't worth 16 EP" which is an ignorant statement. You're comparing apples and oranges. 17 would translate to well over 16 EP which makes your statement ludicrous at best and makes you look like you were too lazy to whip a calculator out. Even at the lowest value of "standardized" EP values in the OP (for entry level T4), 17 hit rating would be worth 22.78 EP. Is 22.78 > 16 EP? Yes, I think it is.
#6406SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Tambard
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Your argument is ridiculous, not the stat weights. As Sebudai said, you're taking your "feelings" as facts, and saying the math can go fuck itself.
I could get SWS reports... Go and pick up the hit items, get SWS reports... And put it on "paper"... But I'm not really interrested if it's commonly accepted or not, nor am I interrested in picking up downgrades. It has proven true time and time again FOR ME that Hit is ridiculously overvalued on this site, and there has been no reasoning behind why it deserves the ridiculous stat weight it's given. Why not prove that it deserves the insane weight it has, rather than saying the math is right? I'm basing my claim on observations, while you're saying the unfounded math is correct when it contradicts commonly accepted theorycraft.


Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Even at the lowest value of "standardized" EP values in the OP (for entry level T4), 17 hit rating would be worth 22.78 EP. Is 22.78 > 16 EP? Yes, I think it is.
And who says it's correct? It has been wrong many times before. Oh... And one more thing... From the OP:

Originally Posted by Malan
We need as much of every stat as we can get, but hit rating is just less important than the others.
If that's not you saying hit rating is a lesser stat, then I don't know what is...

Last edited by Tambard : 01/22/08 at 3:53 PM.
#6407SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
No you're basing your BS on "wow look at my dmg meter on this 7 minute long fight" and then committing fallacies of logic. You're basing it on 2 things really - jack, and shit.

On the other hand we as a community base our valuations on a cumulative total of simulation hours that is approaching the millions of hours run, which have categorically been shown to be accurate through in game analysis, none of which you have shown.

Contradict common theorycraft? I think you're a little mixed up here bud, because whats in this thread is the accepted common theorycraft.
#6408SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by ikillyouheal View Post
Sebudai, we've got pretty much the same gear, but Berserker's Call comes out a tiny bit higher than Madness of the Betrayer for me, any ideas why?
Madness comes out at 160 EP for me, BC is 150 and I have almost identical gear to both Sebudai and Illundai. (However I use the BC because I prefer it to madness due to not needing the hit, I run at 200+ hit rating already just from using "the best" item in each slot, and because I like heroism + BC on use).

I ran the sim x5 @ 10,000 hours and got an average of:

1 AP
1.98 Crit
1.79 Hit
1.88 Haste
0.34 Armor pen
2.2 Str
1.93 Agility
3.31 Expertise

Thats for mongoose/Mongoose setup (if you use Mon/exe you get different EP values for crit/agility).

Although I don't know why my crit/agility values are much higher than Sebudai's, maybe buffs.. leader of pack? I Never have a feral in the dps group so could be that.
#6409SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Tambard View Post
I could get SWS reports... Go and pick up the hit items, get SWS reports... And put it on "paper"... But I'm not really interrested if it's commonly accepted or not, nor am I interrested in picking up downgrades.
Is it possible for you to get a WWS log of a raid or 2? You said earlier that you "get top 4 on dps", however with no numbers that means very little. For example you could be getting top 4 dmg with 1200 dps or top 4 dmg with 1800 dps and thats a huge difference.

If you want your theory to hold water you need to show some numbers.
#6410SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
Except I could post my own WWS of me undoubtedly doing more damage and since I have more hit rating I could somehow equate that to meaning hit rating is awesome. Shitty logic is shitty. Embrace the loving arms of math.
#6411SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Tambard, maybe it you had more hit rating you could hit the submit button on the first try, and thus avoid multiple posts.

Most of us trust the simulator because the results are in line with what we see in game. I recently made an upgrade that decreased my critical chance by about 1% but added 30 hit rating and 20 AP. Simulator suggested it was a major upgrade, on the order of 10 dps, and that's about what I see -- an average of 10 more DPS on fights I did the previous week in a similar group.

Whenever I trust the EP, I seem to do well. Whenever I aim for a particular stat, I seem to get boned. If the EP says Hit Rating is worth 1.5 AP, I trust that at the very least, it'll be close to that. Our DPS is a feedback system and what the EP tells us is that balance is more important than min-maxing.
#6412SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
◊ Rob
We really have come full circle. First, it's "rofl why rnt u hit capped?" Now, it's "hit is worthless lol nub!" Suffice to say that if you just don't value hit at all, you *may* end up with the right items at the endgame, but you *will* get some of the wrong items along the way. (Skipping out on Skulker's Greaves is a huge mistake, for example.)

Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Here's a list based off of my own stats. Keep in mind that this list assigns no value whatsoever to intellect or stamina:
This list is going to basically be consistent with any other shaman's list. (I.e. even though they have different customized EP values, these are just the best items in-game period.) S3 weapons are better than Syphons for any race. The only possible exceptions I see on your list are that Deadly Cuffs and Insidious Bands are functionally equivalent (honestly, it is roughly a 2 AP difference no matter how you socket), and Softstep are slightly better than Shadowmaster's if you are forced to socket with Rare-quality gems (instead of the Epic-quality gems that would be expected). I would also add that Shoulderpads of the Stranger only pull ahead of Shoulders of the Hidden Predator when socketed with an epic gem and the two items are really functionally equivalent as well.

I noticed you prefer Softstep and Fists of Mukoa, is this because you like wearing mail? The dilemma I face in choosing between these options and their leather near-equivalents is that the leather items do stack more Stamina and would probably produce more survivability in a raid environment, where IME armor is of little to no concern (and if you end up tanking something you throw a shield on until it can be taunted off of you). My guild is on Illidan at the moment, so I have seen most encounters that you have, but I don't have your level of gear to be able to say "oh, I've got plenty of stamina, no need to look for more."

Last edited by Rob : 01/22/08 at 5:04 PM.
#6413SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zealoz
Well I am sporting an interesting Dilemma. My gear has improved greatly over the last 3 weeks with the additions of Syphon, T5 Helm, Insidious Bands, Mantle of Darkness, Nether Shadow Tunic. While my overall DPS has increased I have noticed (through WWS) an additional increase in Melee misses by nearly 5%on some encounters. And an increase in misses with SS/WF by nearly 1-2%. My damage allocation seems to be right on between Melee/Specials/Shocks. I have some WWS from early this month where I added the Syphon, Mantle of Darkness and T5 Helm. But our RL hasn't posted WWS from the last 2 weeks, probably because we have been working on Archimonde alot. But I will try to get them.

My armory is probably showing my PVP gear from last night but I run with unbuffed 1676 AP, 19.65% Hit, 28.84% Crit. And Expertise rating of I believe 25 (Orc + Belt on One-Hundred deaths) and zero haste.

Any thoughts as to why my misses are increasing, but my DPS is also increasing? I replaced S1 Cleaver/S2 Hacker (Hence the FT attacks in WWS) in OH with the Syphon. And running W.E.P. in MH. Am I missing something, doing something wrong? I have tried to model after Malan, Sebudai, Yo, and Disquette. So I am a little perplexed by this indication. Is this a normal expectation that as the damage output increases as does the number of misses or potential misses?

WWS
#6414SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Mox
Originally Posted by Zealoz View Post
And an increase in misses with SS/WF by nearly 1-2%.
Unless you're in Hyjal I don't even see how this is possible ...

your damage on Rage winterchill

6.2% miss on stormstrike??? Not possible... something/someone is screwing up your logs.

Last edited by Mox : 01/22/08 at 5:20 PM.
#6415SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zealoz
Most of the increases in miss% have come off the bosses in Hyjal. The BT Bosses that we have killed up to this point I haven't noticed that big of an increase in misses. Is the Armor rating of Hyjal Bosses that much higher?

Originally Posted by Mox View Post
6.2% miss on stormstrike??? Not possible... something/someone is screwing up your logs.
So that is interesting. I don't maintain the logs so I have no idea what happened.
#6416SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Armor rating does not impact miss chance.

On the other hand, "Banshee Curse" from Banshees in Hyjal trash packs sure does.
#6417SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Zealoz View Post
Most of the increases in miss% have come off the bosses in Hyjal. The BT Bosses that we have killed up to this point I haven't noticed that big of an increase in misses. Is the Armor rating of Hyjal Bosses that much higher?
Armor rating has nothing to do with hit chance.

Are you using 3/3 DW spec and 3/3 natures guidance in your raid dps spec? If you are your stromstrike/WF have no chance to miss at all.
#6418SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Chicken
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Unless you're in Hyjal I don't even see how this is possible ...

your damage on Rage winterchill

6.2% miss on stormstrike??? Not possible... something/someone is screwing up your logs.
What WWS refers to as misses is in fact the amount of attacks that were missed, dodged or parried. So a 6.2% "miss" on Stormstrike could very well just mean that 6.2% of the Stormstrikes that were done were dodged.
#6419SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
Dodge + parry shows up as miss in WWS if my memory serves me right..
#6420SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zealoz
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Are you using 3/3 DW spec and 3/3 natures guidance in your raid dps spec? If you are your stromstrike/WF have no chance to miss at all.
I am 3/3 DW and 3/3 NG and was at 128 +Hit during these encounters.
#6421SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Zealoz View Post
I am 3/3 DW and 3/3 NG and was at 128 +Hit during these encounters.
Ok well like previous posters pointed out (and I had forgot) WWS includes parry/dodge as "misses". So if you have those talents + that hit rating your SS/WF are not missing at all, I recommend getting an ingame meter such as swstats or recount and actually checking this for yourself if you want.
#6422SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Ahem -- this is generated by one of those stats parsers that merges Dodge/Block/Parry/Resist with true Miss for a combined Miss chance.

There isn't a whole lot of data for Stormstrikes and thus you can't trust the miss rate on any single parse for it. You'd need to fight for 16 minutes to see even 100 SS swings. I have seen parses where SS never misses and others where it misses 10% of the time. It's just random numbers with a small sample set dude.

Incidentally, what the HELL are you doing with Flamestrike on, man?
#6423SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I noticed you prefer Softstep and Fists of Mukoa, is this because you like wearing mail? The dilemma I face in choosing between these options and their leather near-equivalents is that the leather items do stack more Stamina and would probably produce more survivability in a raid environment, where IME armor is of little to no concern (and if you end up tanking something you throw a shield on until it can be taunted off of you). My guild is on Illidan at the moment, so I have seen most encounters that you have, but I don't have your level of gear to be able to say "oh, I've got plenty of stamina, no need to look for more."
After your mana pool has shrunk a bunch from using a lot of leather, I think intellect actually starts to matter a little bit if you totem twist. While generally stats like mp5 and intellect are totally meaningless to us, you still do need a large enough base mana pool to sustain the twisting cycle in between SR's. Intellect and mp5 are definitely terrible. But at this point, when I'm deciding between two items that are equivalent dps-wise, I'll normally take whichever one has more intellect.

Using Fists of Mukoa, Boneweave Girdle and Softstep Boots of Tracking gives me about an extra 30 seconds of totem twisting, which ends up mattering on encounters like Illidari Council, Mother Shahraz and Gurtogg. If I didn't totem twist it really would be impossible to run out of mana and I would definitely prefer the other options.

Last edited by Sebudai : 01/22/08 at 6:40 PM.
#6424SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Poprostu
guys plz help me ... what u think about this boots ?

Earthen Netherscale Boots - Items - World of Warcraft
#6425SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
[Earthen Netherscale Boots] 61.6ep + 6agility becouse you can chooce 12agility over cat swiftness enchant. I have to say: dont waste gold.
#6426SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Shinanigans
Hey guys.

Looking through the weaponry currently available for me, I am pondering what the next move to make is.

I am in a guild that is 5/6 SSC and 3/4 TK and we are STRICTLY working on Vashj. That means that going into TK and getting Netherbane is kind of a lost cause at this point.

I am currently wielding dual S1 Axes (both 2.6 speed obviously). I am 2 weeks away from the S2 Axe (need 600 more arena points). Once I get the S2 Axe, I plan to use it as my MH. In saying that, what is going to be my best bet for an OH until Alar drops Netherbane? Should I just stick with my S1 Axe in my OH for the time being?

Thanks for your help.
#6427SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Areus
Run the sim. Its there for a reason, so that you can answer your own questions. Do more than 1 run to see if your DPS increases or decreases with different gear setups.
#6428SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Using Fists of Mukoa, Boneweave Girdle and Softstep Boots of Tracking gives me about an extra 30 seconds of totem twisting, which ends up mattering on encounters like Illidari Council, Mother Shahraz and Gurtogg. If I didn't totem twist it really would be impossible to run out of mana and I would definitely prefer the other options.
Thanks. I also wear mostly leather, just of lower ilvl than yours, so we have similar unbuffed mana pools. I was totem twisting tonight for the first six bosses of BT without any mana problems, but I was using rank 1 WFT rather than max rank. I will try twisting with max rank later this week, and see if I run into the same problems you describe. (As I'm a novice twister, it's also quite possible that I'm just less efficient in using my GCDs and so I get less GoA uptime and fewer shocks but use less mana.)
#6429SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Darganis
- Windfury Weapon now only grants 1 extra attack and the bonus attack power granted has been reduced by approximately 19%, but the chance to proc has been increased. Overall shamans should see more consistent dps.
I found this here. What does this mean for us? Can anyone do some quick numbers? Because we will have to change our spec to make sure we get "Elemental Weapons" because of this:

- Elemental Weapons: This talent now increases the damage caused by Rockbiter Weapon by 10/20/30% and the attack power bonus of Windfury Weapon by 15/30/45%.
What is the future like for the Enh Shammy?
#6430SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Iku
Originally Posted by Darganis View Post
I found this here. What does this mean for us? Can anyone do some quick numbers? Because we will have to change our spec to make sure we get "Elemental Weapons" because of this:



What is the future like for the Enh Shammy?
First, those are probably fake patch notes. Second, even if they were valid (which would suck), every enhancement shaman already has the Elemental Weapons talent. It's the prerequisite for Stormstrike.
#6431SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Dukanull View Post
Deadly Cuffs
Yellow Socket: 5 Str/5 CR - (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
28 CR: (28*1.72) = 48.16
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (19.6) + (20.52) + (48.16) + (58) = 146.28 EP

Wouldn't you socket these with a spinel? Can't see any reason to make a yellow socket bonus fit with stamina.
Ah yes, sorry, that's why they were coming out on top for me, I was assuming a Spinel socket, which wouldn't give the socket bonus (but even without the socket bonus, cuffs with a spinel still comes out on top, right?
#6432SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Conq[SUN]
Leatherworking

Hi

Monster of a thread here. But I have found a lot of good useful information so far. Thanks.

My question is regarding professions, which I haven't been able to find anything about. Seems the best would probably be to get blacksmithing, but don't wanna do that again.

So I came up with leatherworking, which seems to be a bit useful. Was sure Dragonscale would be the specialization to get, but after looking into it I'm no longer sure. It seems Elemental is the way to go.

Looking at the epic pieces you can make Primalstrike comes out a little bit better with the wrists and waist, but only a bit, so you could justify getting the Netherscale for the extra armor and int. The Primalstrike chest seems so much better that the Netherscale though, meaning it is no longer justified getting Netherscale for the extra stats.

Is this conclusion right, or is there any other opinions?

Edit: Made an alliance shaman on another server to play with some friends. Meaning I probably won't have access to the same level of gear as my paladin.
#6433SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Tristan
Originally Posted by Conq[SUN] View Post
So I came up with leatherworking, which seems to be a bit useful. Was sure Dragonscale would be the specialization to get, but after looking into it I'm no longer sure. It seems Elemental is the way to go.

Is this conclusion right, or is there any other opinions?
Don't specc , there's quite easily obtainable alternatives leaving the choice for another time and day when it's needed to pick one.

Chest: [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] (Crafted, 2 nethers)
Wrists: [Vindicator's Linked Bracers] (Honor)
Waist: [Vindicator's Linked Girdle] (Honor)

I leveled Leatherworking just to make: [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes], and still haven't specced my leatherworking. I don't expect to choose one unless I find something in WotLK or some new items are added to the speccs.

Edit: Nether requirement for Shadowprowler's Chestguard

Last edited by Tristan : 01/29/08 at 6:12 AM.
#6434SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jumbotron
Originally Posted by Mbuzi View Post
I believe you have to manually add in your hit from talents to your paperdoll stats. So if your paper doll reads 7%, add 9% to that if specced for it. That is how I read the following from Yo's FAQ.
A belated thanks, that was my mistake exactly.


Thanks also to Malan and everyone who's contributed to the thread, there's not a more comprehensive guide to enhancement shaman on the net.
#6435SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Conq[SUN]
Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
Don't specc , there's quite easily obtainable alternatives leaving the choice for another time and day when it's needed to pick one.

Chest: [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] (Crafted, although 4 nethers so a bit of cash if you don't have the rep to make it yourself)
Wrists: [Vindicator's Linked Bracers] (Honor)
Waist: [Vindicator's Linked Girdle] (Honor)

I leveled Leatherworking just to make: [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes], and still haven't specced my leatherworking. I don't expect to choose one unless I find something in WotLK or some new items are added to the speccs.
Good advice although I would need to do Kara to get it, which I'm not sure I will ever do.
Think I will follow you advice and wait and see though. It seems the crafted armor you can get by speccing is not as good for shaman as it seems to be for other classes. Thanks.
#6436SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Farstrider
[Shadowprowler's Chestguard] is only 2 nethers, not 4, so pretty achievable in an afternoon if you go with a guild group. Alternatively they are probably around 1,000-1,200 gold these days - they have been cheapened by the new badge loot alternatives.
#6437SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Wraithlin
Shadowprowlers is also a relatively small upgrade from the S1 Galdiator chest for its cost in time/money.
I actually have all the mats for a Shadowprowler's Chest but cant bring myself to craft and enchant it for what works out as around a 30EP gain with my current weightings.
#6438SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Skizzilini
Originally Posted by Poprostu View Post
guys plz help me ... what u think about this boots ?

Earthen Netherscale Boots - Items - World of Warcraft
Is there a thread or post to answer questions like this? I know how you gauge EP values and such as static values, but at what point you switch to new gear and what point one stat become better than the other would be interesting to talk about. Some people don't know when they are T4, T5, T6, pre raid, or any other classification. Perhaps another thread to help gauge gear values?

Edit: I guess this post was deleted, but my question still remains.
#6439SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Wraithlin
Originally Posted by Skizzilini View Post
Is there a thread or post to answer questions like this? I know how you gauge EP values and such as static values, but at what point you switch to new gear and what point one stat become better than the other would be interesting to talk about. Some people don't know when they are T4, T5, T6, pre raid, or any other classification. Perhaps another thread to help gauge gear values?
This is what YO's simluator exists for.
Put your stats in the simulator, run it for 1000+ hours, write down your new AEP values; ifyou put those in enhancer it will even work out for you which items an an upgrade and how much of an upgrade they represent.

Really, it is all there if people were a little less lazy. I found all the information you just asked for, myself, less than a week ago, using the search functions of this forum and a little time of my own.
#6440SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
After your mana pool has shrunk a bunch from using a lot of leather, I think intellect actually starts to matter a little bit if you totem twist. While generally stats like mp5 and intellect are totally meaningless to us, you still do need a large enough base mana pool to sustain the twisting cycle in between SR's. Intellect and mp5 are definitely terrible. But at this point, when I'm deciding between two items that are equivalent dps-wise, I'll normally take whichever one has more intellect.

Using Fists of Mukoa, Boneweave Girdle and Softstep Boots of Tracking gives me about an extra 30 seconds of totem twisting, which ends up mattering on encounters like Illidari Council, Mother Shahraz and Gurtogg. If I didn't totem twist it really would be impossible to run out of mana and I would definitely prefer the other options.
I pretty much follow this as well. Once a shamy hits enough of a mana pool to be able to sustain twisting until SR is back up, there is 0 need for int or mana/5 on gear. Sure the Souls leather gloves have 3 more agi then fists, but enhance does need a decent mana pool which depending on how much leather is used, can be a pain.

As said, for me Int and Stam are both tie-breakers in choosing gear. I wont use them in the initial calculations, but they help when theres a tiny EAP difference between 2 pieces of gear.
#6441SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Wraithlin View Post
This is what YO's simluator exists for.
Put your stats in the simulator, run it for 1000+ hours, write down your new AEP values; ifyou put those in enhancer it will even work out for you which items an an upgrade and how much of an upgrade they represent.

Really, it is all there if people were a little less lazy. I found all the information you just asked for, myself, less than a week ago, using the search functions of this forum and a little time of my own.
I agree, but you have situations where a list like the one I asked for and Sebudai provided is a great help. When you transfer from T5 content to T6, your upgrade path is unclear. Item A may be a better upgrade for me than item B, but after replacing maybe 60% of my set, B is the best in-slot item. AEP is dynamic and sometimes is near impossible to find the best in-slot item because you don't have the under-laying other best-in slot items to base your AEP on.

Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
#6442SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
Loot Rank
#6443SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
I agree, but you have situations where a list like the one I asked for and Sebudai provided is a great help. When you transfer from T5 content to T6, your upgrade path is unclear. Item A may be a better upgrade for me than item B, but after replacing maybe 60% of my set, B is the best in-slot item. AEP is dynamic and sometimes is near impossible to find the best in-slot item because you don't have the under-laying other best-in slot items to base your AEP on.

Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
Actually, using entry level EP values will give you pretty much the same set of good gear as using end game EP values. Barring maybe one or two items. It really doesn't change that much
#6444SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Ah. Well, further proof of my lack of enhance knowledge.
#6445SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Oprahwinfury
When I weigh Expertise Rating at 3.52 on lootrank.com, [Gloves of the Searing Grip] gets a score 4 EP higher than [Fists of Mukoa]. Does this really mean the leather gloves are superior as the Expertise is rounded down to 4 from 4.57 on the character sheet? I don't have any other items with Expertise Rating on them.
#6446SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Iku
Originally Posted by Oprahwinfury View Post
When I weigh Expertise Rating at 3.52 on lootrank.com, [Gloves of the Searing Grip] gets a score 4 EP higher than [Fists of Mukoa]. Does this really mean the leather gloves are superior as the Expertise is rounded down to 4 from 4.57 on the character sheet? I don't have any other items with Expertise Rating on them.
I'm not that familiar with lootrank.com, but you should get an accurate result if you subtract (<expertise weight> * <unused expertise rating part>) from the specific item, in this case that would be 3.52 * 0.57, so subtract about 2 EP from the item value.
#6447SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• ikillyouheal
I just ran the sim for my stats again, and it seems like I got some really high numbers for hit.

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Customize Item Score Multipliers

Seems like t5 Gloves are the best ones in the game for me at the moment.

I ran the sim for 1500 hours twice and came to the same conclusion both times.

Any input?
#6448SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Iku
The T5 enhancement glove score on Thottbot seems bugged and is far too high.
#6449SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
I don't think 1500 hours is enough. I get some pretty big swings running it for 10,000 hours.
#6450SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
As has already been said, the "best" items are going to come out the same no matter what point you're at in gear progression, but the "better" items along the way may change with your EP fluctuations. Anyway, you can just look at the list Sebudai posted a few pages back and/or any of the LootRank links recently posted to get a list of the "best" for everything besides trinkets and weapons, which are addressed in the first post.
Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I ran the sim for 1500 hours twice and came to the same conclusion both times.

Any input?
As has been said, the T5 glove score on Thottbot is bugged. For this and other reasons, I use LootRank instead. To get more accurate values, I would honestly recommend making an Excel spreadsheet, and running the sim 5 times for 10k hours each. Put the values from each trial into Excel and average them.
#6476SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Zinzoo
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
If you looked up five posts you'd discover that the Dragonstrike proc is overvalued in the simulator. Even if it wasn't overvalued, ignoring the stats on the rest of the items makes your results meaningless. Why would you even use a sim to test whether a 97.6 dps, 2.7 speed weapon was better than a 97.6, 2.7 speed weapon that also has a useful proc?
Then completely disregard my previous post. I try and keep track of this thread but I don't have enough time to read every post that is written (poor excuse I know). Seeing Yo post himself that there was an issue with the proc being valued too high in the simulator is news to me. I should not have posted my finds, it was my error. At the time I thought the proc for Dragonstrike had already been establish.

Edit: As for ignoring stats gained from other weapons, I worded that really poorly. Crit, AP, and Hit gained from the other weapons were included, it was weapon procs that I did not include, since the only one in this case was the Syphon's drain life proc (which I believe an accurate PPM still has not been established for).

Last edited by Zinzoo : 01/24/08 at 3:48 PM.
#6477SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3calem
totem twisting clarification

Quick question to clarify my understanding. I just started totem twisting and have the cycle down pretty smooth. I've asked the rogues in my group and our raid leader if they see a difference with twisting, and none have been able to quantify it, myself included. Based on the community and basic math, it's doing something obviously, just don't know how much of an increase.

We did Teron Gorefiend last night and as I was looking through my parse, I saw that I got 32 Windfury totems and 32 Grace of Air totems dropped. Then I looked at the rogues and saw they got 32 WF procs, which makes sense, 1 proc per totem drop.

I'm looking for confirmation on what I'm seeing and making sure I'm not accidentally lowering dps for my group. As windfury weapon imbue has a 3sec cooldown, does WF totem have a 9sec cooldown? If i left WF totem down the whole time, would the group still only have 32 procs, or would the buff refresh itself and be used more than once in 9 secs? I'm assuming it wouldn't or there would be some mention on these forums and twisting wouldn't be as useful.

I know this seems obvious, guess i'm just looking to make sure my thinking is correct.

WWS - WWS Teron Gorefiend
#6478SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vim
While the Totem Imbue is on the party members weapons, they have a 20% chance to proc WF. Having it down all the time as opposed to twisting will not raise the number of procs. On the other hand, you have to be right on top of the twisting cycle so you always have the WF imbue on party members weapons. Dropping it late can reduce the groups DPS significantly over time. WF totem buffs are actually refreshed every 5 seconds, (periodic trigger) so I dont think that they are missing out on any procs unless you dont have WF down as soon as those 9 seconds are up.
#6479SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by calem View Post
We did Teron Gorefiend last night and as I was looking through my parse, I saw that I got 32 Windfury totems and 32 Grace of Air totems dropped. Then I looked at the rogues and saw they got 32 WF procs, which makes sense, 1 proc per totem drop.
Actually, according to the buffs&debuffs tab,
Tinytalonius got 16 WF attacks:
Miniragnare got 32 WF attacks, which is just coincidence that you dropped 32 wf totems.
Dhegin got 31 WF attacks.

Your group does not gain one WF hit per time you cast WF totem.... If that was true, then this community would suggest that every avaialble cooldown of an enhancement shaman should be used to cast WF totem, again and again....
#6480SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3calem
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
Actually, according to the buffs&debuffs tab,
Tinytalonius got 16 WF attacks:
Miniragnare got 32 WF attacks, which is just coincidence that you dropped 32 wf totems.
Dhegin got 31 WF attacks.

Your group does not gain one WF hit per time you cast WF totem.... If that was true, then this community would suggest that every avaialble cooldown of an enhancement shaman should be used to cast WF totem, again and again....
If you look at the presence section, Miniragnare was the only one to live the whole fight in the group with me. Tiny got shadow of death halfway through and dhegin got it shortly before the end.

The more I think about this, there must be some kind of 9sec cooldown on WF procs from the totem, or something along those lines. Otherwise the more experienced members of the community would have found a major flaw in totem twisting. If the buff was consumed on proc and could be re-appliedd within 9sec by leaving the totem down, twisting GoA with WF wouldn't be more dps. So I assume the buff isn't consumed but doesn't proc again because of the cooldown. At least that's what the WWS leads me to believe.

I'm thinking out loud, anyone else understand what I'm saying, and more importantly trying to figure out?
#6481SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Emaze
I was wondering if someone could explain why my EP values in Yo!'s sim are so much different then the "stand" t6 list. Anyone else getting number completely different?

AP - 1
Crit - 2.45
Hit - 1.71
Haste - 1.77
ArmPen - .29
Str - 2.2
Agi - 2.39
Expert - 3.51

And my other question is about expertise. Does that 3.51 rating mean [Shapeshifter's Signet] has a value of 129.95? I got around the same value for expertise when I did the formula.

Last edited by Emaze : 01/24/08 at 11:05 PM.
#6482SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
If you look at the presence section, Miniragnare was the only one to live the whole fight in the group with me. Tiny got shadow of death halfway through and dhegin got it shortly before the end.

The more I think about this, there must be some kind of 9sec cooldown on WF procs from the totem, or something along those lines. Otherwise the more experienced members of the community would have found a major flaw in totem twisting. If the buff was consumed on proc and could be re-appliedd within 9sec by leaving the totem down, twisting GoA with WF wouldn't be more dps. So I assume the buff isn't consumed but doesn't proc again because of the cooldown. At least that's what the WWS leads me to believe.

I'm thinking out loud, anyone else understand what I'm saying, and more importantly trying to figure out?
There is no 9 second cooldown. It doesn't "consume" any buff or anything like that. Windfury Totem pulses a weapon buff immediately when it is cast and every 5 seconds after that. The buff has a duration of 10 seconds and gives each player a 20% chance to gain one free attack with bonus attack power every time they make an attack with their mainhand weapon.
#6483SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Manifesto
There's something which has been irritating me for a while and no one has addressed it...
The front page references Searing totem as a great way to add 70-100 dps, when crowd control isn't an issue. (I actually doubt it's really that high for Enh)
What about the maths on Magma Totem? (Specificlly if you don't twist)

You're always at the bosses feet, so mobility isn't an issue on 9/10 fights. Mana should not be an issue, providing you're not twisting.

I know that Magma Pulses exactly every 2 seconds...
Searing, I believe, has a 2.5 second cast time, however sometimes it waits a little before firing... it can sometimes average a 3 second cast time.

Here's my attempt at some very quick maths...
700 spell damage from AP

Searing Totem 50-66 base damage, 8% spell damage coefficient. 2.5 second cast.
700x0.08 = 56, 106-122, 114 average, every 2.5 seconds. = 45.6 dps.
Call of Flame, 114 +(114x0.15) = 131.1 = 52.4 dps.

Magma Totem 97 base damage, from wowwikki, spell damage coefficient 66.7% (untested, across the entire DoT)
700x0.667 = 466.9 over a 20 second period. 10 pulses in 20 seconds. 46.69 dmg per pulse + base damage.
46.69 + 97 = 143.69. every 2 seconds. = 71.845 dps.
Call of Flame, 143.69 +(143.69x0.15) = 165.24 = 82.62 dps.

This doesn't include crit or resists... we'd also need to finalise those spell coefficients. (Before reading WoWWiki I was under the impression that Flametounge weapon, Searing and Magma totem all recieved 10% per pulse/hit)

Where did the alledged 70-100 dps from searing on the main page come from?
Um, diregard most of the above... Searing must get a significantly higher than 8% coefficient.
Also, I can confirm the cast is actually 2.2s!
EDIT: I got home and did some testing ingame...
With my 1630 Unbuffed Attack power, which obviously fluctuates in raids with procs.
It hits for about 170 ever 2.2s, Magma pulsing for 149/2 sec, So searing gets much more benefit from spell damage... and would scale very nicely.

Boy to I feel silly for all my Magma spam...

Is anyone interested in doing math for maintaining Searing, and dropping Fire Novas every 15 seconds?

Last edited by Manifesto : 01/24/08 at 11:25 PM.
#6484SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
I'm not going to do a bunch of math but I will say my searing totem hits or a lot more than 131. With raid buffs it shoots for around 250 and according to Thottbot World of Warcraft: Attack it's a 2.2s cast. With the same buffs my magma totem ticks for about 170.

If we're only hitting one mob it seems pretty easy to figure out which one is better.
#6485SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Smokestomp
Originally Posted by Emaze View Post
I was wondering if someone could explain why my EP values in Yo!'s sim are so much different then the "stand" t6 list. Anyone else getting number completely different?

AP - 1
Crit - 2.45
Hit - 1.71
Haste - 1.77
ArmPen - .29
Str - 2.2
Agi - 2.39
Expert - 3.51

And my other question is about expertise. Does that 3.51 rating mean [Shapeshifter's Signet] has a value of 129.95? I got around the same value for expertise when I did the formula.
This doesn't look right. Why is crit and agility so valuable? It was my impressions they couldn't surpass Strength or AP as the primary stat. Interested to see more, as that ring would be upgrade for me if I could run the sim and achieve those values for expertise, atleast.
-----------------------------------------------------------

The T6 values on the main page need to be revised. Crit and Agility should be equivalent given BoK is assumed, no?

High Raid (T6) EP Values
These values were contributed by forum member Sebudai based on an end-game T6 gear set, essentially with best-in-slot items for all slots. These should be viewed as a rough estimate for shaman entering T6 content, and include Blessing of Kings.
Strength = 2.2 EP
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18 (Yo's Simulator recently changed to give EP weights to Expertise Rating)
#6486SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Smokestomp View Post
The T6 values on the main page need to be revised. Crit and Agility should be equivalent given BoK is assumed, no?
Even with kings crit rating is slightly better than agi for pure dps, most consider the extra dodge from agi to cancel out the meager difference though.
#6487SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Emaze View Post
Does that 3.51 rating mean [Shapeshifter's Signet] has a value of 129.95? I got around the same value for expertise when I did the formula.
Yes the Shapeshifter signet is now an amazing ring upgrade for anyone who hasn't gotten a T6 content ring yet.
#6488SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Wraithlin
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yes the Shapeshifter signet is now an amazing ring upgrade for anyone who hasn't gotten a T6 content ring yet.
Is there a way to update the mouseover on these forums?
I was very confused why we would want something with dagger skill and feral combat rating.

Also, my expertise value comes out at 2.5, that seems low relative to other peoples, but I do have 8 expertise already.
#6489SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Monkeyfun
Ring Enchant

Which ring enchant is better for an enhancement shaman?

Increased Weapon damage or +4 to stats?


Sorry if this is a repeat question, the post is rather long.
#6490SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Monkeyfun View Post
Which ring enchant is better for an enhancement shaman?

Increased Weapon damage or +4 to stats?


Sorry if this is a repeat question, the post is rather long.
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Amazingly, using the "Search this thread" function in the upper right with the terms "enchant ring damage stats" yields many applicable results, including one that directly answers your question. I will decline linking it for you, "Feed a man a fish..." and all that jazz you know.



Use search, really
#6491SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Extenze
The Crystalforged Trinket, a Revered rep reward from Ogri'la, has an EP value of 134 (98 [+7 dmg = 98ap] + (216 * 10 / 60))

That would make it better than the Bloodlust Broach, and almost as good as the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision.

Last edited by Extenze : 01/25/08 at 1:30 PM.
#6492SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Vim View Post
Dropping it late can reduce the groups DPS significantly over time.
Please, numbers when you use the word "significant." We all have different opinions of "significant;" I defined it as 1% of total DPS.

What's the value of Windfury to a group's DPS?

A contentious issue. Judging by last night's WWS, my Fury warrior gets 6% additional DPS, my best rogue 7.2%.

(I calculated this by taking a group that had no windfury, removing the benefit of GoA considered as 3% of their white damage, and calculating how much extra DPS they would see from an additonal 20% of 66% of their white damage)

If I had a group of 1 warrior, three of my best rogue and me, and assuming we all did the same DPS, the average increase in DPS for the group would be 5.52% Your numbers can and will vary.

What's the value of GoA to a group's DPS?

GoA adds about 3% to each of us (the rogues get less crit, but they get AP which helps offset it).

What's the value of twisting?

They're multiplicative; 1.0552 * 1.03 = 8.6%

However, you lose GoA for the 1.5s after you drop WF. This will slightly decrease the benefit

What's the penalty for not dropping Windfury on time?

You go from an 8.2% buff to a 3% buff.

So what's the net benefit, over time, for twisting, w/r to slipping?

(Benefit of WF * 1.5 + Benefit of WF & GoA * 8.5s + Benefit of just GoA * time slipped) / total time

Slip by an average of 0s per cycle over time: 8.14% to total group DPS
Slip by an average of 1s per cycle over time: 7.67% (.47% lost)
Slip by an average of 2s per cycle over time: 7.28% (.86% lost)
Slip by an average of 3s per cycle over time: 6.95% (1.19% lost)

So, you can slip by up to 2s and not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce DPS, IMO.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/27/08 at 8:56 PM.
#6493SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Extenze View Post
The Crystalforged Trinket, ... some bad math ... that would make it better than the Bloodlust Broach, and almost as good as the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision.
+7 DAMAGE = + (7/weapons speed) DPS
2x 2.6s weapons: +2.69 MH DPS, +2.69 OH DPS = ~32 EP + 36 proc = 68 EP.

That trinket is garbage and if you'd searched the thread, you'd have seen that.
#6494SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Please, numbers when you use the word "significant." We all have different opinions of "significant;" I defined it as 1% of total DPS.

What's the value of Windfury to a group's DPS?

A contentious issue. Judging by last night's WWS, my Fury warrior gets 6% additional DPS, my best rogue 7.2%.

(I calculated this by taking a group that had no windfury, removing the benefit of poison, and calculating how much extra DPS they would see from an additonal 20% of 66% of their white damage)

If I had a group of 1 warrior, three of my best rogue and me, and assuming we all did the same DPS, the average increase in DPS for the group would be 5.52% Your numbers can and will vary.

What's the value of GoA to a group's DPS?

GoA adds about 3% to each of us (the rogues get less crit, but they get AP which helps offset it).

What's the value of twisting?

They're multiplicative; 1.0552 * 1.03 = 8.6%

However, you lose GoA for the 1.5s after you drop WF. This will slightly decrease the benefit

What's the penalty for not dropping Windfury on time?

You go from an 8.2% buff to a 3% buff.

So what's the net benefit, over time, for twisting, w/r to slipping?

(Benefit of WF * 1.5 + Benefit of WF & GoA * 8.5s + Benefit of just GoA * time slipped) / total time

Slip by an average of 0s per cycle over time: 8.14% to total group DPS
Slip by an average of 1s per cycle over time: 7.67% (.47% lost)
Slip by an average of 2s per cycle over time: 7.28% (.86% lost)
Slip by an average of 3s per cycle over time: 6.95% (1.19% lost)

So, you can slip by up to 2s and not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce DPS, IMO.
Good mathing, Toots. I don't have the time to poke at it right now, unfortunatly, but knowing how much slip-time I theoretically have, when twisting, is good.

I try to keep slips to below 2s because that is >~MH speed of my sword rogues and ret pally. Worst case I want to keep their un-WF'd hits to a minimum of 1 for totem switches. That's how I've been estimating slip-impact.
#6495SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Please, numbers when you use the word "significant." We all have different opinions of "significant;" I defined it as 1% of total DPS.

What's the value of Windfury to a group's DPS?

A contentious issue. Judging by last night's WWS, my Fury warrior gets 6% additional DPS, my best rogue 7.2%.

...

Slip by an average of 0s per cycle over time: 8.14% to total group DPS
Slip by an average of 1s per cycle over time: 7.67% (.47% lost)
Slip by an average of 2s per cycle over time: 7.28% (.86% lost)
Slip by an average of 3s per cycle over time: 6.95% (1.19% lost)

So, you can slip by up to 2s and not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce DPS, IMO.
Equally interesting, your math shows that you still increase DPS by twisting even if you miss by 2 seconds (since the largest benefit to your rogues was 7.2% from WFT). This does, of course, neglect the impact of missed shocks on group DPS, but I would tend to argue that number should be vanishingly slim if you are dropping totems 2s late regularly.
#6496SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Subpar
With the introduction of s3 weapons, how do they stack up to Syphons? I'm newly entering Hyjal/BT and am lucky enough to have both s3 weapons. Should i be spending DKP on any Syphon that drops or are the s3 weapons just plain superior?
#6497SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bargle
Originally Posted by Subpar View Post
With the introduction of s3 weapons, how do they stack up to Syphons? I'm newly entering Hyjal/BT and am lucky enough to have both s3 weapons. Should i be spending DKP on any Syphon that drops or are the s3 weapons just plain superior?
Run the sim.
#6498SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
(I calculated this by taking a group that had no windfury, removing the benefit of poison, and calculating how much extra DPS they would see from an additonal 20% of 66% of their white damage)
You should take off-hand specialization into accounts and edit numbers to include that. Rogue Oh do 0.75 Mh damage and warrior Oh do 0.625 Mh damage.
#6499SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stoneclaw
Concerning meta gem selection:

After using the search and finding nothing on using [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] as an enhancement shaman, here my question: Is it viable to replace the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] as meta?
If the RED gives roughly a dps boost of 1% given a crit rating of 30% or more and the BED gives 2% less threat, would that not in theory give a shaman the ability to do 100% damage at 98% threat (I know the calculation becomes a bit less accurate once you factor in Spirit Weapons and BoS, but hear me out) instead of 101% damage at 101% threat? Taking into account that at least some work is going into keeping threat down, there would be potential for dps that may be freed by using the BED.
Of course, this only makes sense if you need to actively decrease threat. But if you do, is it viable?

To finish with a table of what I mean:

If the damage is the limiting factor, not normalized:
[Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] - 100% dmg - 98% threat
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - 101% dmg - 101% threat

If the threat is the limiting factor, normalized to 100% threat:
[Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] - 102.04% dmg - 100% threat
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - 100% dmg - 100% threat
#6500SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Stoneclaw View Post
After using the search and finding nothing on using [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] as an enhancement shaman, here my question: Is it viable to replace the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] as meta?
Sure, if you are threat capped. However, more often, threat is not the limiting factor. If it is, you can always twist Tranquil Air, or if the tank's in your group, you can put Enchant Cloak: Subtlety on an old cloak and keep your RED.
#6601SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
SS procs WF, shocks don't. If you have a 2.6 weapon and are flurried 100% of the time ceteris paribus Stormstrike will account for 1/6 of your WF procs and damage. Since most of us aren't flurried 100% of the time, it's even more than that. Using some theoretical "8% SS, 12% shocks, 30% WF" numbers, SS accounts for a larger percentage of your damage.
Actually, considering the low amount of hit rating many shamans pack, SS can actually be worth closer to 1/5 of your WF procs (based on a WWS from last Thursday, it was responsible for exactly 20% of mine). Still, the effect of SS timing on Windfury should be similar to the effect of hit rating on Windfury -- if stacking hit rating isn't a huge buff, then slipping SS shouldn't be a huge hit.

Of course, if what we're talking about is folks with some zany cycle that is going to result in the sacrificing one ability or the other, then yes, this will add up to less WF. (I didn't realize this was the suggestion; I thought we were discussing the SS/Shock race condition that occurs naturally every 31s). With WF being such a feedback system, and considering that picking shocks vs strikes doesn't look like it'll have a 1% benefit in either direction, I'm going to shut up and wallow in my own wasted math.
#6602SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
I don't know about this 31 second cycle with shock/stormstrike colliding. For me its occuring damn near every time SS comes up. Teron is a good example of that since I can just stand in one place for 4-5 minutes (if not ghosted) and focus completely on hitting shocks and SS as soon as the cooldown expires, and every single time that SS is off CD I have a shock coming off at the same time.
#6603SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris] View Post
Should clarify that as an orc there's no added benefit for using 2 axes, only 1 is required.
This is actually not true, even though the character screen says you gain 5 expertise when wielding one axe, doesn't mean it's also applied to your other non axe weapon. The character screen just can't display expertise per hand (yet).
#6604SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ Toots Hepcat
Malan: Well, research done from this post actually shows two interactions cycling every 31s; the actual interactions occur at 13s and 31s:

0s   FS (CD up at 6s)
1.5  SS (CD up at 11.5s)
6    ES (CD up at 12s)
11.5 SS (CD up at 12.5s, GCD up at 13s)
13   FS (off by 1s due to GCD, CD up at 19s)
19   ES (CD up at 25s)
21.5 SS (CD up at 31.5s)
25   FS (CD up at 31)
31   ES (GCD up at 32.5)
32.5 SS (off by 1s due to GCD, then continues as at 1.5s above)
This is using a method we could call "Prioritize whatever's first" (first a shock, then a strike) for a total loss of 1s per cycle per 31s.

If you were to prioritize strikes, you'd see a different cycle resulting in the loss of 2s of shocks per 20 (or 1 whole shock per minute):
0    SS (CD up at 10s)
1.5  FS (CD up at 7.5s)
7.5  ES (CD up at 13.5s)
10   SS (CD up at 22.5s, GCD up at 13s)
13.5 FS (CD up at 19.5s)
20   SS (CD up at 25s)
21.5 ES (off by 2s due to GCD, repeating as 1.5s above)

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/31/08 at 1:13 PM.
#6605SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Now try it with a 50ms lag on each end of button push + notification of something being ready, and lets say another 0.75-0.5 sec or so of realizing that something is ready to be pushed.

(Also did you mean to write ES twice in that 2nd example?)
#6606SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
[e] I would like to propose the following restructuring, which would also follow through to the ThinkTank wiki whenever Boe finally opens it.
I like.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Actually, considering the low amount of hit rating many shamans pack, SS can actually be worth closer to 1/5 of your WF procs (based on a WWS from last Thursday, it was responsible for exactly 20% of mine).
...
the SS/Shock race condition that occurs naturally every 31s
Yeah, it would be expected that it's 1/5 of your WF procs if you have 2.6 speed weapons and about 75-80% Flurry uptime as well (rather than the 100% I assumed), even before accounting for misses.

I can understand the tendency to want to model everything, but this is (to me) one of those cases where it just doesn't work out. You're essentially dealing with the interaction of two different overlapping timers (SS and shocks), which is easy, but you've also got to take into account another overlapping timer (autoattack) that has a semi-random duration (due to Flurry gaining/fading) which randomly procs another three-second timer. Oh, and don't forget that if WF is on cooldown, that ten second SS timer extends until WF is off cooldown. The fact that there are so many decision points influenced by random variables makes it so that we're not really talking about a simple ten-second timer anymore, and I think the modeling falls flat on its face at this point.

Now, obviously, if WF is on cooldown and shock and SS are both up at the same time, hitting shock is the best idea (since we know that delaying SS for WF to be off cooldown is a DPS increase). However, if WF is not on cooldown, hitting SS is the best idea, because you are looking at more potential damage from that SS. I think we can probably all agree on this, and it makes the discussion (which ability to delay?) rather moot.
#6607SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Can I solicit someone to give me an initial/rough writeup that covers Flametongue + Frostbrand?

Oh and also maybe a "brief intro to enhancement" that would cover 'what we bring to the raid' and basically explaining how we're highly tied to gear choices, procs, etc.
#6608SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Kalamadea
So if it can't be modeled, what's the priority list for Max DPS?

I think from reading WF totem buff > all the rest of our abilities (correct me if I'm wrong).

However, should you drop WF totem but delay dropping GoA for a shock or SS? Or does GoA > personal DPS at that point?

If SS and Shocks are up at the same time and WF is off CD, which should I do first? Which plays into the next question..

If WF is locked out, and SS is up and shocks are going to be off CD at the same time WF is off CD, should I go ahead and SS then shock? Or delay the SS and the shock to get a SS/WF combo?

If I have a moonkin/ele shaman in the raid, should I SS then ES immediately to use my debuff, or FS and let him use up both charges? (I think I know the answer just don't want to give up my 20% dmg boost. >.< )

If I can't model it, at least I'd like to know which is most important to keep up the highest damage.

Edit: Changed an on to an off.

Last edited by Kalamadea : 01/31/08 at 2:33 PM.
#6609SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
Malan, did you want it to be an intro to enhancement for new shamans, for raid leaders or explaining the abilitites we possess? I've already started, but I think from a raid leaders perspective they just want a quick and dirty explanation, whereas new shamans might want more in depth stuff.
#6610SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Quick and dirty. More like a "so you are considering rolling/taking an enhance shaman ..." sort of thing, 5-10 lines. Literally just an intro for the wiki article.
#6611SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
So you’ve found some crazy internet fiend to play an enhancement shaman in your raid. Great, they provide passive AP/Crit buffs from totems and procs, as well as the sought after Windfury all the rogues cry over. They are a HIGHLY proc based class that possess very few active abilities. They can replenish their mana pools based on Attack Power however, which is why you will see a lot of enhancement shaman in leather gear, increasing their crit rate to improve proc rates and increasing their attack power to return more mana per attack as well as straight DPS increases. What you can expect from an enhancement shaman is WF totem (sword spec + AP on a higher proc rate), 90 agility, 100 Str, 10% AP bonus to their group when they crit and a melee class that can heal themselves in a pinch. They are also one of the highest threat building classes in the game, are good at kiting single targets that can be snared and are highly versatile in group compositions.

How's That?
#6612SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
I agree with Sebudai completly. Theres no reason why you should shock before ss. Look at it this way...

SS has a 10 sec cd and does roughly 1000 damage non crit (500 for each hand)
1000/10=100dps

Flame shock does more damage so we'll use it.
It has a 6 sec cd with about 500 inital damage non crit
Then about 130 damage every 3 seconds for 12 seconds(4 ticks)
For a total of 1020 in 12 sec and 760 in 6 seconds.
760/6=126.777dps
1020/12=85dps

Sure the raw dps is greater, but now consider that SS can proc WF and that should be plenty of evidence that SS > Shocks.

In short, if you have your SS and shocks come off of cd at the same time, SS first.
#6613SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Kala, if you're going to twist, use the WF->GoA->SS macro, and shock whenever you can inside that framework.

I think it's becoming obvious that trying to prioritize while twisting and watching the WF cooldown will only result in confusion, latency and probably ulcers.
#6614SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Delita View Post
are good at kiting single targets that can be snared
I actually ended up kiting a ROS blue ghost around the bloodboil trash area for about 2 minutes while my guild screwed around with loot. When I pulled aggro I thought I was toast, but I was able to sheild/SR/earth elemental and get far enough away to start the kite. It was the most fun I've had in BT in weeks, I hope blizzard implements something like that in future raid encounters (more of the tin-man, I guess).

As far as the twisting macro is concerned, I've stayed away from them. There are times when I get behind in the rotation due to lag/reaction speed/etc where it's easier just to skip 3.5s of GoA in order to get a quick heal/warstomp or some other situational thing. An important part of being an enh shaman is maintaining your personal DPS and situational abilities, totem twisting shouldn't interfere with either of these things.
#6615SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Oops. I blame that on the lack of foresight to split that wall of text into multiple posts to make editing easier.
After maintaining an enchant thread for both of the guilds I was previously in, I learnt the wonders of multi-posting things.
Layout looks nice, and I guess there will be a Vol 2 in the near future.
#6616SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
I guess there will be a Vol 2 in the near future.
I like that idea.
#6617SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Delita View Post
They are also one of the highest threat building classes in the game
Since 2.2 it's not really true, our physical dps (~85% of the total) has the same aggro as a rogue's one. There's always the risk of some big windfury proc right at the first strike, but holding back a few seconds is enough for the tank to generate enough threat.
#6618SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kalamadea
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Kala, if you're going to twist, use the WF->GoA->SS macro, and shock whenever you can inside that framework.

I think it's becoming obvious that trying to prioritize while twisting and watching the WF cooldown will only result in confusion, latency and probably ulcers.
Thanks for the advice, I'll just live with shocking when I can and try and find my own rhythm.
#6619SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Proposed change(s) to the main post -- comments?

Malan, there are two sections labeled "VIII.3" so you'll probably want to fix one to be labeled VIII.4. I'm not sure how much of a priority continuing to maintain this thread is with the TTT coming along, so I guess don't bend over backwards to fix that.

VIII.7.1 Itemization - MH Weapons

Optimizing enhancement shaman DPS requires running two slow weapons with Windfury Weapon on both weapons.

The best way to choose between multiple items in the same slot is to run Yo's simulator, once for each item, using the stats that you would have with that item equipped. Do not post asking which weapon is best: find out for yourself by running the sim. That said, here are some general guidelines.

Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available.

Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating.

Arena Season 2 weapons (e.g. [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]), [Dragonstrike], [Wicked Edge of the Planes], [Netherbane], and [Talon of the Phoenix] round out the list of third-best choices.

Generally speaking, if you are an orc, you will want to choose axes for the +5 Expertise Bonus.

The differences in DPS within these "tiers" are relatively minor. Which weapon is best for you, or which weapon to mainhand and which weapon to offhand, can only be found by using the simulator with your stats, and no general conclusions can be drawn.

-----

The "OH weapons" section could probably use an update too. Maybe just a redesign for the way these sections are laid out. I also don't know the ZA weapons off the top of my head, so add them to the above if I'm missing something.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but every time I use the sim to measure MH weapon performance [Talon of the Phoenix] beats out both Syphon and RT, also the revised Dragonstrike proc modeling still puts it slightly above the T6 weapons. If we're going to be so adamant about recommending the sim as a basis for gear selection shouldn't the recommendations match the output it gives us? Or are my results just completely out of line with what others are seeing?
#6620SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but every time I use the sim to measure MH weapon performance [Talon of the Phoenix] beats out both Syphon and RT, also the revised Dragonstrike proc modeling still puts it slightly above the T6 weapons. If we're going to be so adamant about recommending the sim as a basis for gear selection shouldn't the recommendations match the output it gives us? Or are my results just completely out of line with what others are seeing?
That is certainly an odd result. Could you give the full list of inputs your using with Yo's sim to get those?
#6621SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
That is certainly an odd result. Could you give the full list of inputs your using with Yo's sim to get those?
Sure, I just use my base armory stats with DS(since it doesn't add any passives) then add in the appropriate passive stats and adjust the DPS/speed for whatever I'm testing.

AP 1782
Crit 32.77%
Hit 22% (resto sub-spec currently)
Haste 2.35%
Armor pen. 126
Str 201
Agi 332

Buffs/Debuffs
Imp GOTW, FF
Imp Hunter's mark, Expose
Imp scorch
BoK, Imp SotC, Imp BoM
Misery
SoE, GoA, No SS
CoE, Malediction, CoR
Imp BS, Sapphire, SA, BF
Flask, No pots, Clefthoof

The results have been very consistent over several months with many gear changes.
#6622SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3poofypajamas
Ok well, I realize I'm probably overlooking something pretty major here, but why is it that hit rating is considerably more valuable at the T6 raid item value than at the T5 or T4? I looked through the post and did not see the answer anywhere and unfortunately, I don't have the patience to look through 250 or so pages of posts to find the answer lol.

I have 1466 AP, with 29.81% crit, and 413 armor penetration unbuffed. Which simulator should I be primarily using with those stats, tier 5?
#6623SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Originally Posted by poofypajamas View Post
Ok well, I realize I'm probably overlooking something pretty major here, but why is it that hit rating is considerably more valuable at the T6 raid item value than at the T5 or T4? I looked through the post and did not see the answer anywhere and unfortunately, I don't have the patience to look through 250 or so pages of posts to find the answer lol.

I have 1466 AP, with 29.81% crit, and 413 armor penetration unbuffed. Which simulator should I be primarily using with those stats, tier 5?
Because hit rating value is related to your crit rating and AP values. The more you increase crit/AP, the more valuable hit becomes.

edit: about the values, you can always consider using Yo!'s simulator and get your own personalised values
#6624SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
This post is just a happy "how bout that" moment. Because of a misguided post on the Blizzard forums, I was reminded to run Yo!'s sim to prove something that I've claimed for many months:

slower weapons = higher % of attacks are flurried.

Most of the official forum people for some reason cannot process this fact, though at least some of them get it half right, thinking that they flurry % would be equal between fast and slow weapons.

This was the first time I'd thought to actually verify the hypothesis with the sim, and it worked just spiffy.

That's all, just sharing some vindication/happiness on a topic I wish I had the ability to concretely address months ago.
#6625SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
This post is just a happy "how bout that" moment. Because of a misguided post on the Blizzard forums, I was reminded to run Yo!'s sim to prove something that I've claimed for many months:

slower weapons = higher % of attacks are flurried.
Um... isn't this blindingly obvious? WF is not normalized, so you get more WFs per white attack with slower weapons. This is the basis of "shams need slow weapons". Given this fundamental tenet, it's not exactly a stretch to say that the more WFs per white, the more chances to flurry. Or is there some other issue I'm missing that complicates this?
#6676SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Definetly worth getting 2x [Shifting Tanzanite] for the RED now, one for your Midnight chest and 1 for the Bow-Stitched legs
#6677SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Krom[Fenris]
Alright. I've been reading this thread for awhile and I'll be the first to admit that a lot of it goes over my head. I'm not as dedicated as a lot of you, and math is far from my strong suit. But I pick up useful information here and there that I can grasp. I've always been a bit wary about using Yo!'s simulator, but I finally took the plunge. A few questions:

- The option for Band of the Eternal Champion is greyed out for me. Is this just an incomplete feature?

- I use Pawn, not Enhancer. I assume I should take the EP values Yo!'s spits out after it's done and enter them into Pawn.

- I was shocked by some of my EP values. Using the baseline Atk 1 value, it has Crit 2.01 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.8 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.2 / Agi 1.96 / Expertise 3.38. Some of those were surprising. I was surprised Hit and Haste were valued so high.

Last edited by Krom[Fenris] : 02/01/08 at 8:32 PM.
#6678SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sancho
Originally Posted by Ilmatar View Post
Probably not needed, but [Sundered Chrysoprase] is not a bad 2nd choice to other options for a blue gem slot. You miss out on stamina while gaining your AEP, but it still gives you 5crit, and fills a blue slot.
At my current EP values, 5 crit is about equal to 4 str, and I'd much rather have the stam than the mp5. I don't think its worth noting.
#6679SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris] View Post
Alright. I've been reading this thread for awhile and I'll be the first to admit that a lot of it goes over my head. I'm not as dedicated as a lot of you, and math is far from my strong suit. But I pick up useful information here and there that I can grasp. I've always been a bit wary about using Yo!'s simulator, but I finally took the plunge. A few questions:

- The option for Band of the Eternal Champion is greyed out for me. Is this just an incomplete feature?

- I use Pawn, not Enhancer. I assume I should take the EP values Yo!'s spits out after it's done and enter them into Pawn.

- I was shocked by some of my EP values. Using the baseline Atk 1 value, it has Crit 2.01 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.8 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.2 / Agi 1.96 / Expertise 3.38. Some of those were surprising. I was surprised Hit and Haste were valued so high.
Yes.
Yes.
Run it for longer and more times and then take an average.
#6680SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3CeNo65
2.8 vs 2.6

i entered some basic numbers into yo's

i only changed atk,crit,haste, weapon speed and weapon dps.
1800 atk
36% crit
8% haste

100dps 2.8speed weapons x2 =1410

100dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1385
101dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1388
102dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1391
103dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1394
104dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1398
105dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1402
106dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1405
107dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1409
108dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1413

103dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1403
104dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1407
105dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1410

Then the same inputs but with much lower crit (30%)
108dps 2.6speed = 1343
103dps 2.6speed = 1326
100dps 2.8speed = 1338

This test doesn't take into effect the weapon stats etc.



Basically I'm seeing that two Syphons are best until you have two 2.6 speed weapons with 108dps, or a 105dps 2.6 speed MH and a 100dps 2.8speed OH



I know its different for every ones values but i just stuck with top leather and full t6 stats
#6681SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by CeNo65 View Post
i entered some basic numbers into yo's

i only changed atk,crit,haste, weapon speed and weapon dps.
1800 atk
36% crit
8% haste

100dps 2.8speed weapons x2 =1410

100dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1385
101dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1388
102dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1391
103dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1394
104dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1398
105dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1402
106dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1405
107dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1409
108dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1413

103dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1403
104dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1407
105dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1410

Then the same inputs but with much lower crit (30%)
108dps 2.6speed = 1343
103dps 2.6speed = 1326
100dps 2.8speed = 1338

This test doesn't take into effect the weapon stats etc.



Basically I'm seeing that two Syphons are best until you have two 2.6 speed weapons with 108dps, or a 105dps 2.6 speed MH and a 100dps 2.8speed OH



I know its different for every ones values but i just stuck with top leather and full t6 stats
So basically you ignored all stat gains on the items and compared speed/dps. That would work if items had no stats, but they do.

2x syphons stats with buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
15.02% hit
1800 ap
33.15% crit
301 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700ac=1627, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200ac=1785, 1787, 1788, 1786

2x vengeful stats with same buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
16.04% hit
1768 ap
35.05% crit
399 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700 ac =1630, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200 ac=1808, 1808, 1808, 1809

On higher AC mobs/phase 1 souls you'll see similar results between syphons and vengeful, get into lower ac mobs(Teron, Anetheron, others I don't remember) and the numbers swing more in vengeful's favor. Toss in the 2 armor ignore items that I am lacking and the margin grows further. Statistics are fun because you can make anything look better than what they actually are.
#6682SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by rava View Post
So basically you ignored all stat gains on the items and compared speed/dps. That would work if items had no stats, but they do.

2x syphons stats with buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
15.02% hit
1800 ap
33.15% crit
301 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700ac=1627, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200ac=1785, 1787, 1788, 1786

2x vengeful stats with same buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
16.04% hit
1768 ap
35.05% crit
399 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700 ac =1630, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200 ac=1808, 1808, 1808, 1809

On higher AC mobs/phase 1 souls you'll see similar results between syphons and vengeful, get into lower ac mobs(Teron, Anetheron, others I don't remember) and the numbers swing more in vengeful's favor. Toss in the 2 armor ignore items that I am lacking and the margin grows further. Statistics are fun because you can make anything look better than what they actually are.
So what you're saying is, welfare epic weapons > any currently obtainable PvE weapon, for.. PvE?
#6683SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
So what you're saying is, welfare epic weapons > any currently obtainable PvE weapon, for.. PvE?
I wouldn't call S3 axes welfare weapons, since you need 1850 rating to get them.. If it was S1 sure, but it isn't. Hopefully Sunwell will add some new fun weapons to play with.
#6684SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
I wouldn't call S3 axes welfare weapons, since you need 1850 rating to get them.. If it was S1 sure, but it isn't. Hopefully Sunwell will add some new fun weapons to play with.
Well, for 1,000 gold on my server you can 'pay' people to boost you in 3v3, it takes a single evening... and you get 1850 rating and better than BT weapons. Sounds welfare to me.
#6685SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
'lo,

our guild has been beginning to try to push DPS on fights such as Teron to see how well we can do on the WWS rankings,
We had a semi-decent try at it this week (but got unlucky with who got ghosts, so DPS dropped significantly ) and I was wondering after reviewing our WWS about trinket choice.

Khaelyn - WWS

This is the WWS. I had 3 Tsunami Talisman procs with Fury of the Crashing Waves and 4 DST Procs (-2 Haste buffs from Haste Potions).

The question I was wondering is PERSONAL experience with trinkets on such occasions, I know I could kinda model it with the sim, but that's not really what I'm looking for. As far as I know, the sim can't take into account fight length and that's the biggest factor here - how will I do the most DPS for a short period of time. The question arose to me when I realised I could use [Berserker's Call] twice, not to mention one of the would be up during a Heroism too, probably signifcantly spiking my burst DPS. I was wondering if any of you have already had this dilemma when trying such crazy things as to make fights a DPS fest.
I'm thinking [Berserker's Call] will provide me with more DPS than [Tsunami Talisman] but it's just a gut feeling.
As such I thought I'd ask if there were others before me that have experimented.
#6686SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
So what you're saying is, welfare epic weapons > any currently obtainable PvE weapon, for.. PvE?
That wasn't the intent, but I thought it was a given. I had my weapons in the first few days and it was hell, something that I am definitely not looking forward to whenever S4 hits. The system is amazing imo, not being limited by boss drops or weapon selection is just fantastic. If only they'd move bosses to a pure token system so the 3984892th zhardoom and 834292th cursed vision aren't de'd while we're sitting on 2 skulls, 3 rings, and a single offhand glaive after nearing 7 months of farm. /rant

Anyways, back on topic! The comparisons were to show the silly man that ignoring stat gains on weapons is retarded and leaving out xyz variable will give improper results.
#6687SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Well, for 1,000 gold on my server you can 'pay' people to boost you in 3v3, it takes a single evening... and you get 1850 rating and better than BT weapons. Sounds welfare to me.
With a decent team with the right matrix(war/pal/sham, druid/x/sham) 1850 is really easy. But finding a team already at 1900~2k, and playing 30ish games(winning most) will get you 1850 in a few hours; it's what I ended up doing.
#6688SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
'lo,
The question I was wondering is PERSONAL experience with trinkets on such occasions, I know I could kinda model it with the sim, but that's not really what I'm looking for. As far as I know, the sim can't take into account fight length and that's the biggest factor here - how will I do the most DPS for a short period of time. The question arose to me when I realised I could use [Berserker's Call] twice, not to mention one of the would be up during a Heroism too, probably signifcantly spiking my burst DPS. I was wondering if any of you have already had this dilemma when trying such crazy things as to make fights a DPS fest.
I'm thinking [Berserker's Call] will provide me with more DPS than [Tsunami Talisman] but it's just a gut feeling.
As such I thought I'd ask if there were others before me that have experimented.
I use a BC for that exact reason, so i can pop it when i use other cooldowns like haste pots, heroism, drums etc. Personally stacking buffs like that give me really good results, which is why I doubt i'll bother getting a MoTB/TT. The next trinket I'll get will be the sunwell one with expertise and on hit AP inc (If those loots do actually turn out to be true).
#6689SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Question for twisters concerning the overlapping shock cd/wf reapplication.

I've been trying a different rotation to see a DPS improvement(SS, WF, GoA, FS, SS, ES, WF, GoA, FS, SS, WF, GoA, ES, so on) and I had one of the rogues yell at me that WF fell off their weapon. I went back to the 3 button deal but it made me wonder if the 1 second of WF uptime was more dps than a shock. So here's the math I did, tried to explain everything as best as I could.

Rogue DPS gain from WF:
Looking over a WWS, keep in mind this is without kings/battle shout/blood frenzy/flask/food so number is higher, but this is the only reliable info that I have.

max hit = 906(number is actually lower, but this is the closest thing to an actual WF hit I can get)
21% glance = 65%
6% dodge = 0%
36% crit = 200%
5% miss = 0%
32% normal = 100%

100 hits

21*906*.65 = 12366.9
+36*906*2 = 65232
+32*906 = 28992

= 106590.8(total)/100(# of swings) = 1065.9 damage per swing average

1065.9*.2(WF proc chance) = 213.18 dps(wing)

2.6speed mainhand/1.35(snd with 2 piece t6) = 1.92 so you are outside of <1.5 window where 2 swings could occur during the global

213.18*2(# of rogues) = 426.36

Warrior DPS gain from WF:
Have to go back a ways so numbers may not be entirely accurate here, our warrior has been busy with school/job so he hasn't been raiding. This is without flask/food.

max hit = 1590
29% glance = 65%
2% dodge = 0%
38% crit = 200%
8% miss = 0%
23% normal = 100%

100 hits

29*1590*.65 = 29971.5
+38*1590*2 = 120840
+23*1590 = 36570

= 187381.5(total)/100(# of swings) = 1873.81 damage per swing average

1873.81*.2(WF proc chance) = 374.76 dps(wing)

3.5 speed weapon/1.15(33/28 spec, 3/5 flurry) = 3.04 speed, well outside of the window

using 15d/4c+fs/2 = 15(1873.81)/4(274.7) + 3.5*3.5/2 = 31.77 rage, going to go with a single extra heroic strike, I'm pretty sure 2+ would delay the auto slam ms auto slam ww thing

1623 average hit hs
38% crit
5% dodge
57% normal = 2158.59 average damage, which changes 1873.81*.2 to (1873.81+2158.59)2, or 806.48dps(wing), but this is where I get tripped up. There's a >50% chance that missing the global on WF won't have any bearing on the warriors DPS, so do I halve this number?

If so I'm looking at 403.24 for a warrior, bringing the total of 2 rogues + 1 warrior to 829.6 dps from WF. This does not take Sword spec into account because I am entirely too lazy to try and figure out the math on that and obviously the rogue DPS would be a bit higher with a sensible group. If I were to ballpark the DPS gain from 829 to 1000(170, 85 dps per rogue) with blood frenzy and shout would that be sensible? Even then I'm seeing shocking as a better alternative to WF for that global as my average ES hovers around 1300 and FS around 825/267 ticks.
#6690SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
our guild has been beginning to try to push DPS on fights such as Teron to see how well we can do on the WWS rankings

I'm thinking [Berserker's Call] will provide me with more DPS than [Tsunami Talisman] but it's just a gut feeling.
Definitely, you're looking to push that fight down to 2-3 minutes so you'll want to shed trinkets that have a long internal cooldown.
#6691SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Well, the reason I was wondering is that I had more Tsunami procs than I would have BC activations. I was doubting - maybe the stats of TT would outweigh BC's extra AP I'd get.
#6692SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Hi all, didn't see this discussed in here (and maybe it shouldn't be, but we'll get to that later). However, it's certainly something that I feel would be worth some intense theorycrafting. I also chose to ask in this forum instead of the elemental forum because of everyone's familiarity with enhance gear.

I also think that this is probably not a viable option for raiding, but I've been curious ever since the mental quickness change.

Has anyone examined a 33/28/0 spec where the player would gear to max AP and then auto-attack while throwing lightning bolts?

I became curious about this from hearing some elemental shamans that I know (who do very good dps) complain about the difficulty in breaking 1000 spell damage, and my own experience as enhance still having over 700 spell damage buffed in pre-T5 gear.

With all of the buffs to AP that can be applied to a shaman, is it possible to break 3333 AP?

Barring that, what would the dps be of a person in melee range, with melee weapons, using WF and auto attack (prolly it would be MH + caster dps off-hand OR a 2H weapon) who was spamming LB?

How much DPS would they need to achieve from auto-attacks in order to make up for the lost dps from not speccing fully into elemental? How much DPS would they need from their lightning bolts in order to make up for not speccing fully into enhance?

Would it be possible to make a character with this spec viable for raiding? (I expect this to be a no, but I'm still very curious)

Seems to me that the gear would need to be max STR and AP, have just enough hit to break the yellow damage hit cap (5% I think), and the play style would have to allow for melee and caster dps at the same time (assuming an auto attack in between every lightning bolt or every other lightning bolt, depending on weapon speed).

Obviously, you can get more +spell damage from wearing all caster gear, but then your melee attacks would hit for nothing (and most casters don't melee ever anyway). The point of this spec would be to have melee still be a significant portion of the dps of the character (LB would still take the lion's share though - I imagine). Likewise, you could gear and spec for full enhance, but then you'd be enhance and not melemental. There, I've created a good name for the spec, too.

Additionally, and I think this would probably be the biggest factor killing the spec: Would it be possible to sustain dps without completely running out of mana? Would threat be an issue without spirit weapons (and having to fight in melee range)?

I'm thinking that if you can do 2/3 of the damage of an ele shaman with full enhance gear on, that your melee auto-attacks with WF would easily make up the additional 1/3. But I haven't tried the spec and I don't really have the full STR + AP gear that would allow me to maximize a melemental spec.

Anyway, have fun with this one.
#6693SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Unaz
Originally Posted by Kahdrick View Post
Anyway, have fun with this one.
You either won't have the AP to sustain the spell damage, or won't have the mana to sustain the lightning bolts. And if you're meleeing in between while waiting on mana, your melee will run dry with that few points in Enhance.

You also won't have Totem of Wrath, or Unleashed Rage. Which are major reasons for having a shaman in your group.

Edit: Or weapon mastery, or DW unless you meant 28/33 instead of 33/28

Last edited by Unaz : 02/02/08 at 2:24 PM.
#6694SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
# of procs themselves is great, but you also need to consider buff duration. BC is 20s, Tsunami is 10s, so now you'd need at least 3 TT procs to give about an equal amount of AP/s as well as modelling the other stats the items give. Assuming the items both 'go off' at exactly their CD end AND right @ 0:00 you can model an ideal situation (with everything else being equal) and if you want, take a sample and create a % proc coefficient for TT (BS would be 100% since its an on use trinket). No you're never going to get 2 boss attempts ever to have all things being equal to start building a statistical database, so all the theorycraft goes out the window and we come round to it being totally chance based and reliant on TT going off ASAP.

EDIT: LOL, Casting any spell with a cast duration resets your wswing timer, GL with chain casting LBs with AA on.
#6695SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Kahdrick View Post

Has anyone examined a 33/28/0 spec where the player would gear to max AP and then auto-attack while throwing lightning bolts?

Anyway, have fun with this one.
This makes next to no sense, because the second you start any spell with a cast time, you reset your swing timer, absolutely killing your autoattack dps. Only instants for paladins and shamans do not interrupt the swing timer. There's no way you could make up the lost dps for a 2 sec lb cast in 2sec of autoattack swing vs elemental, nor could you make up 2 sec of autoattack as full enhance with a 2.5 sec cast lb.
#6696SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Nor would you have the mana pool or regen to sustain it.
#6697SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ frmorrison
Originally Posted by Delita View Post
EDIT: LOL, Casting any spell with a cast duration resets your wswing timer, GL with chain casting LBs with AA on.
Also if you cast a spell made instant (via 2 Tier 5 or Nature's Swiftness) that is not normally instant, it also resets the swing timer.
#6698SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Felt like messing with Google Spreadsheets and I made a spreadsheet template for using Yo's simulator that does the averages for you and formats an enhancer string with the averaged values. I think the permissions are set so you can copy it and use the template for yourself.

Google Docs - AEP Averager
#6699SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Run it for longer and more times and then take an average.
Alright, thanks. I ran it 6 times at 10,000 hours each and came up with the following:

AP 1 / Crit 1.91 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.91 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.20 / Agi 1.85 / Expertise 3.40

I'm going to guess 6 runs of it is enough but I could be wrong. Currently my haste is valued the same as crit, very interesting.
#6700SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by rava View Post
So basically you ignored all stat gains on the items and compared speed/dps. That would work if items had no stats, but they do.

2x syphons stats with buffs/debuffs:
@7700ac=1627, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200ac=1785, 1787, 1788, 1786

2x vengeful stats with same buffs/debuffs:
@7700 ac =1630, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200 ac=1808, 1808, 1808, 1809

On higher AC mobs/phase 1 souls you'll see similar results between syphons and vengeful, get into lower ac mobs(Teron, Anetheron, others I don't remember) and the numbers swing more in vengeful's favor. Toss in the 2 armor ignore items that I am lacking and the margin grows further. Statistics are fun because you can make anything look better than what they actually are.
You left out the syphon shadow damage, which is somewhere between 0 and 5DPS per syphon (my average is 3.5ish). Which tips the favor to Syphon for high AC mobs. But like you said, as soon as one tacks in another item or two with more AC reduction it swings even more in the favor of the vengeful weapons.
#6701SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Shabadu View Post
This makes next to no sense, because the second you start any spell with a cast time, you reset your swing timer, absolutely killing your autoattack dps. Only instants for paladins and shamans do not interrupt the swing timer. There's no way you could make up the lost dps for a 2 sec lb cast in 2sec of autoattack swing vs elemental, nor could you make up 2 sec of autoattack as full enhance with a 2.5 sec cast lb.
Ahh, I forgot about swing timer. I guess if you had a speed 2.0 weapon you'd be sure to auto-attack at the end of every cast... Anyway, the responses are pretty much what I expected, thanks for indulging me.
#6702SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Added page with the best possible set that sim suggests at current itemization available. Plan to update it as soon as 2.4 loot will be known for sure.
#6703SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
I'm trying to figure out how the heck I went from around 30% unbuffed crit on the paperdoll to only 26%. Did anyone else have a drop in crit rate like that as they started grabbing T6 gear?
#6704SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bargle
My crit is going up...it's my hit that's suffering.
#6705SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bdatik
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
I'm trying to figure out how the heck I went from around 30% unbuffed crit on the paperdoll to only 26%. Did anyone else have a drop in crit rate like that as they started grabbing T6 gear?
My crit took a huge hit after i collected my haste gear. Went from like 30% to 26%, roughly the same as yourself. Taking a look at your armory, its the same 3 pieces of gear that i have that caused the drop (gloves, belt and ring).
#6706SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3david0925
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Added page with the best possible set that sim suggests at current itemization available. Plan to update it as soon as 2.4 loot will be known for sure.
Thanks for the update Yo on that, hopefully that finalizes the question about "HAI GUYZ WHICH IS BETTER"

However, I am wondering if Dragonstrike ranks higher with the presence of a Dragonspine Trophy (due to haste), we'll see what happens.

Edit: since this is the best possible "Gear Set" (which i didn't read, GG), Dragonstrike is probably still third
#6707SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Bdatik View Post
My crit took a huge hit after i collected my haste gear. Went from like 30% to 26%, roughly the same as yourself. Taking a look at your armory, its the same 3 pieces of gear that i have that caused the drop (gloves, belt and ring).
Hah, ok then. Since those are reasonably going to be replaced I won't worry about it. I keep looking over my gear wondering if I'd left off an enchant or had a Shadow Resist item on.
#6708SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Bdatik
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Hah, ok then. Since those are reasonably going to be replaced I won't worry about it. I keep looking over my gear wondering if I'd left off an enchant or had a Shadow Resist item on.
I went through that same response when looking over my gear wondering what i was doing wrong. Luckily, I almost always have a feral in my group as the 5th person so the loss wasn't that huge of a deal.

Once we upgrade to [Boneweave Girdle] and [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring], we should be back to where we were previously, but just a little shy of 30% with BoK.

Last edited by Bdatik : 02/03/08 at 10:46 PM.
#6709SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Bargle View Post
My crit is going up...it's my hit that's suffering.
This is how my gearing process has been going.

But basically, you would expect your crit, hit, and AP to drop slightly as you gain access to items with haste and armor penetration, since those items will be better but not *so much better* that your overall stats go up even as you add extra stats. From memory, I've dropped from 120 hit to about 90 hit but grabbed about 600 armor penetration and 1% crit.
#6710SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I went back to the 3 button deal but it made me wonder if the 1 second of WF uptime was more dps than a shock.
Careful.

The question you have is whether losing 1s of WF is worth pushing back shocks by 1.5s. The immediate cost of this is 1/4 the cost of a single shock.
#6711SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Khaul
Anyone know why my DPS crashes quite badly when i use 2 x syphons over rising tide/syphon?

Stats with rising/syphon - 1612 AP/27.36%crit/193 Hit
Stats with 2 x syphon - 1618/27.36%crit/172 hit

Yo!'s parses me higher with syphons and from what people saying, they also parse higher but my DPS really takes a hard drop. I struggle to keep flurry up and drop to the lower half of the DPS meter. Re-equip axe and i go back into the top 5. Baffled at why this is. Its not just on 1 fight, its happening alot and im bloody confused!
#6712SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
Did you maybe neglect to enchant/imbue one of your weapons before you switched?

This is the only reason I can think of that RT or Syphon would have a significant advantage over the other. Losing 1.33% hit is bad but shouldn't break you, since you have more than 100.

Also, if you're an orc, obviously the orc racial is worth a tremendous amount.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/04/08 at 1:37 PM.
#6713SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Khaul
Dreani and didnt forget to enchant. Standard mongoose/exe combo.

Its werid, i dont know why the drop is that big. If it was only a slight drop, i would just put it down to a bad raid, more shock resists then normal etc. For a drop that big, im not sure what it is.
#6714SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amagnus
Increasing Health

So I think I've done a pretty good job of obtaining among the best gear for each slot outside of heroics and raids (meaning from quests, regular instances, and an occasional crafted item). I've been using EP to build up as much DPS as possible. All but one of my gear is leather as I was advised in this thread that for instances/raids the favorable DPS stats from most of the leather (over mail) gear is much more important than extra armor (which if you manage threat and don't get hit too much shouldn't be much of a factor).

I'm now transitioning into Heroics and soon KZ. My GM suggested that I increase my health (which has dropped to under 6k unbuffed as I've been focusing on DPS over all else). I definitely see the need for increased health as certain AoE could wipe me out easily. I'm looking for some general direction regarding this issue (and confirmation that increasing health is important) and any specific recommendations that might be warranted.

Here is my current gear and thanks for your time:

[Helm of the Claw]
[Natasha's Choker]
[Blackened Leather Spaulders]
[Cloak of the Inciter]
[Chestguard of the Dark Stalker]
[Felstalker Bracers]
[Gloves of the Unbound]
[Rune-Engraved Belt]
[Shattrath Leggings]
[The Master's Treads]
[Ravenclaw Band]
[Overseer's Signet]
[Figurine - Felsteel Boar]
[Figurine - Nightseye Panther]
[Fist of Reckoning] x 2
[Totem of the Void]
#6715SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Its almoust impossible notice any gear uprgrade or downgrade with only pure gut feeling. Check did you miss any buffs or debuffs those affects much more than any gear upgrades you can get. Buffs are easy to check but debuffs is little harder to see accurately. Imp. hunter mark 110ap or imp. JoC +3% crit is impossible to check for sure. Expose weakness uptime(>250ap) how you can measure it. Or maybe you have just very bad luck.
#6716SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
It could be that you're getting more offhand WF procs using the dual syphons.

I'd say run recount/wws with both weapon configs up to be sure.
#6717SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Amagnus View Post
I'm now transitioning into Heroics and soon KZ. My GM suggested that I increase my health (which has dropped to under 6k unbuffed as I've been focusing on DPS over all else).
I raided Kara with less than 6k for a long time; in fact, I'd put the comfort spot at around 6500. Anything more than that is just a buffer for your healers. The only fight I had trouble with in Karazhan was Maiden; the others, a little more wouldn't make much of a difference. Sorcerous shades (the trash mobs that do AoE burst damage) are a pain but you just pop SR before you engage them and you should have no trouble.

A Flask of the Titans is an extra 400 health with no new gear needed; that combined with some stam food should carry you into Kara where you'll see a lot of upgrades with +stam. You can also take the piece of gear with the least EP on it and put some high stamina green in there, until you get your health up to spec.

But if you really want to get your best bang for buck, do Battlegrounds and get some Vindicator's gear. A few weeks running AV and you should have 1-2k more health. Or if you don't like PvP, you could find a leatherworker to make you some of the epic craftables that are better than anything you'll find in Karazhan anyway: such as [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] or [Cloak of Darkness]. A combination of the two would be ideal; the Vindicator's Ring and Pendant are better than anything you'll find in Kara.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/04/08 at 5:28 PM.
#6718SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Khaul View Post
Dreani and didnt forget to enchant. Standard mongoose/exe combo.

Its werid, i dont know why the drop is that big. If it was only a slight drop, i would just put it down to a bad raid, more shock resists then normal etc. For a drop that big, im not sure what it is.
Standard would be more like Mongoose/Mongoose?
#6719SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
It doesn't matter what the 'standard' is, he's seeing a drop in-game while the sim with the same stats shows an improvement.

Khaul you're going to need to provide some WWS parses in order for anyone to help out.
#6720SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by Khaul View Post
Dreani and didnt forget to enchant. Standard mongoose/exe combo.

Its werid, i dont know why the drop is that big. If it was only a slight drop, i would just put it down to a bad raid, more shock resists then normal etc. For a drop that big, im not sure what it is.
But did you forget WF imbue? That would be huge drop :P
#6721SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Khaul
I'll get some parses when we do some melee friendly mobs with the new raid week. Najentus for example
#6722SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Yo!
Blizz itemization for us has been so poor (mana per 5 sec..., bad stats distribution ), that best pure DPS set (suggested by sim) contains only rogue leather items with one hunter piece (legs).

Assuming that Sunwell loot has iLevel =159 for set pieces (T4 = 120, T5=133, T6 = 146), iLevel = 154 for non-set items, iLevel = 164 for loot from end-bosses, using Item Level formula from wowwiki (very accurate), using EP values from sim from the best set available, assuming that there will be 7 stats on chest piece (as it is now on pvp chest), further assuming that only non-set pieces can contain no stam/int, it is possible to theorycraft chest armor that will be scored highest with abovementioned EP values (Math behind this is not hard but in order to verify the results one has to run discrete optimization algorithm anyway, so take it by word):

Elitist Jerkin
Binds when picked up
Chest Mail
1078 Armor
+20 Strength
+15 Agility
Durability 140 / 140
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 14.
Equip: Improves haste rating by 17.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 15.
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 51.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 696 of your opponent's armor.
"Yo!"
iLevel = 154
626 EP (Midnight is scored twice less)

Another theorycrafted piece of gear possible within iLevel = 154 that you can find interesting:
Dark Naaru Paradox
Binds when picked up
Chest Mail
1100 Armor
Requires Level 70
Equip: Your attacks ignore 1100 of your opponent's armor.

Last edited by Yo! : 02/05/08 at 9:51 AM. Reason: Recalculated stats because ap and str can not be found on one piece. Replaced ap with hit.
#6723SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
It's stated that you will never see a str and AP item unless you get some silly <random> item. (Hardly the point though)

One of the basics is also that if you buff one stat far above the norm, it becomes more and more expensive in the item budget. Like "Ring of Pure Stamina" will not have the same point-by-point value of a three stat ring. (Can't find the source on wowwiki)
#6724SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Yo!
Originally Posted by Raut View Post

One of the basics is also that if you buff one stat far above the norm, it becomes more and more expensive in the item budget.
This is accounted for, did not know about ap/str deal though (guessed it is like agi/crit rating) --> edited stats above.
Formulas:Item values - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Last edited by Yo! : 02/05/08 at 9:54 AM.
#6725SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Amagnus View Post
So I think I've done a pretty good job of obtaining among the best gear for each slot outside of heroics and raids (meaning from quests, regular instances, and an occasional crafted item). I've been using EP to build up as much DPS as possible. All but one of my gear is leather as I was advised in this thread that for instances/raids the favorable DPS stats from most of the leather (over mail) gear is much more important than extra armor (which if you manage threat and don't get hit too much shouldn't be much of a factor).
Overall, the kinds of gear you're collecting is right - but that's not unexpected if you're using EP and calculating what's an upgrade and what just looks shiny. However, your weapon choice, while excellent in the low- to mid-60s, could use a little work. Don't be afraid to use greens if they're better. Keep an eye out on the Auction House for 68-70 2.6 speed greens "of the Bandit" or "of the Soldier", or honestly basically anything. The 68-70 greens are (if I remember correctly) 62-64 DPS, as opposed to the 54 on your Fists.

Admittedly, you're probably going to be picking up a good main hand from Arc or Shattered Halls, and a good off-hand from heroic UB or Crypts (*shudder*), but don't be afraid to use greens in the meantime. I MH'd a [Dragonmaw] with an [Amani Tomahawk] of the something-or-other for a couple weeks while I was grinding arena points for my [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler].
#7001SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Doora
Originally Posted by Asirae View Post
Updated my weapons base index.

Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

Note: these weapons are split for Main-hand vs. Off-hand and simply calc the raw weapon dps & speed. Doesn't include weapon enchants, +stats, +procs, +abilities.... just base enhancement weapons.
If you do not include stats, procs and similar stuff you are doing something terribly wrong. Stats increases dps as well as white dps on the weapon. Same for procs (like the Drakefist Hammer - Dragonmaw - Dragonstrike) one.

Plus Rage & Fury speed is 2.6 not 2.7. Those weapons are in no means better than merciless ones.
#7002SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Macar
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Maybe I'm missing something here, but ... why are you updating us on your blog?
Becasue it is theorycrafting?
#7003SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
+ Added ranks to elemental talents
+ Added Call of Flame talent
+ Added support for Lootrank (link is very long so you need to scroll to copy it fully)
- Higher ranks of Reverbation produce slightly less dps with same number of shocks per 2 minures due ti the limited Global cooldown simulation. This is offset if you increase number of shocks (that is why you choose reverbation anyway)

What is the spell damage coefficient for Searing totem now?

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7004SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
WoWWiki claims it gets 8%.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7005SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
Originally Posted by Macar View Post
Becasue it is theorycrafting?
Theorycrafting that's intended to rate weapons but doesn't take into account stats/ap/procs.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7006SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3possmann
Shifting Tanzanite missing?

Is there any reason why the Shifting Tanzanite gem isn't listed in the gems section? I believe it is currently the best gem for maximizing shaman dps while fulfilling the blue gem requirements of meta gems or gem bonuses, and deserves mention as it is a fairly unique in this aspect.

Superb guide.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7007SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Draenorm
Have you all talked about how general haste abilities (heroism/ bloodlust, drums) affect the global cooldown for spells in 2.4? When those two abilities are active, totem twisting seems much more fluid. I know it's fairly simple math, but I'd like to see the differences between being hasted/not hasted and how it affects shocking/ stormstriking.

There are also a couple new items to plug your values into:
Starstalker Legguards - Items - WOWDB
[Clutch of Demise]

My aep for the neck is 167, same value as [Choker of Endless Nightmares].

Leggings give me 270 compared to 222 from [Bow-stitched Leggings].

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7008SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
I expect only spellhaste to have an effect on your global cooldown for twisting and shocking, won't it?

Neck is +- 2% as good as the chocker, but a decent stamina upgrade. And if your ferals/fury/rogues don't have it yet, i would pass on it for them. They really need the hit to dps, we don't.

The feral leggings are a ~ +5% sidegrade, the other ones are a huge boost of 40-50% for me. What ep are you using?

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7009SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
Hm. Just re-read the Sim part of the OP. It states that you should run Yo!'s sim five times and take the average of the test results generated. Would it not be better to take the median[1]? It would remove odd higher and lower results completely instead of baking the flaws into the result. Nit-picking, I know. :P


[1] Median - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I dunno, really we should be establishing 95% confidence intervals, right? Seriously though, if you got a data set {1.60, 1.62, 1.70, 1.70, 1.74} for some EP value, the mean is 1.67 and the median is 1.70, but the most piece of data that looks most like an "outlier" is 1.74, so I'm not convinced that this technique will always work in your favor. Theoretically, yes, the median is more "outlier-resistant", but we aren't really dealing with large data sets, and we are using data coming from an algorithmic simulation, not the "real world" so I think that our sampling error is going to be much lower.

I guess I'm saying that we would need to see the distribution of EP values for a single stat from ~100 sims with the same inputs, to determine if tossing apparent outliers is a productive strategy or not.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim


Last edited by Rob : 02/12/08 at 12:49 PM.
#7010SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Binkenstein
Originally Posted by possmann View Post
Is there any reason why the Shifting Tanzanite gem isn't listed in the gems section? I believe it is currently the best gem for maximizing shaman dps while fulfilling the blue gem requirements of meta gems or gem bonuses, and deserves mention as it is a fairly unique in this aspect.

Superb guide.
Because that is a gem drop from heroic SV, not a craftable gem. While it could be better than a +8 str gem, it's not easily attainable.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7011SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
We are dealing with large data-sets. The numbers we are dealing with are from 10k hours worth of simulated action. Maybe doing the mean over five sims is redundant; we could run 50k hours instead? The median will take the top or bottom of the worst cases, that is a good thing. Then again, if there are variations in the sims, people must be using too small data sets. Bump it to 100k hours. That should even out the 0.1 variations.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7012SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
Because that is a gem drop from heroic SV, not a craftable gem. While it could be better than a +8 str gem, it's not easily attainable.
I think its more along the lines that these gems are still UE until the next patch, a single gem is not going to make a drastic change in how people gem their sockets.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7013SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik View Post
I think its more along the lines that these gems are still UE until the next patch, a single gem is not going to make a drastic change in how people gem their sockets.
There's also the drop factor to contend with, I know I've run Heroic SV upwards of 50 times, and have only seen the gem drop one run (though 2 drops that run). I think anyone with half a brain will recognize (upon reading the first post) that a STR/AGI gem > STR/STA gem. It's the same reason why the epic crafted gems don't need to be listed.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7014SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Draenorm
Originally Posted by Myul View Post
I expect only spellhaste to have an effect on your global cooldown for twisting and shocking, won't it?

Neck is +- 2% as good as the chocker, but a decent stamina upgrade. And if your ferals/fury/rogues don't have it yet, i would pass on it for them. They really need the hit to dps, we don't.

The feral leggings are a ~ +5% sidegrade, the other ones are a huge boost of 40-50% for me. What ep are you using?
Spellhaste is included in heroism/ drums of battle. Go on ptr and test it out, it's pretty awesome. Just pop hero/ lust and plop a few totems down.

About the leggings, I didn't calculate sockets in my last post. Here's all 4 leggings for comparion, sockets assume max dps. The values I'm using are the average numbers from 10 10,000 hours.

crit 2
hit 1.9
agi 1.94
haste 1.83
armor pen .4

[Bow-stitched Leggings] 287
Starstalker Legguards - Items - WOWDB 335
[Leggings of the Immortal Beast] 332
[Leggings of the Immortal Night] 428

Pretty nice upgrade until you can get your hands on the rogue legs.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7015SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Psibeast
Quick question: I was looking over one of our WWS parses when I noticed I had "misses" for WF and Stormstrike. I got the 9% hit talents and around 150 hit rating on top of that, shouldn't I get 0% misses for special attacks? Or are those attacks that were dodged/parried?

Psibeast - WWS

Thanks.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7016SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Draenorm
WWS just counts dodges/ parries as misses

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7017SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
I'll be satisfied when Blizz actuitaly puts in mail thats for Enhance, not just some hunter hand-me-downs. The weapons are starting to look better though...Stalking Vengance is awsome

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7018SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Raut View Post
We are dealing with large data-sets. The numbers we are dealing with are from 10k hours worth of simulated action. Maybe doing the mean over five sims is redundant; we could run 50k hours instead? The median will take the top or bottom of the worst cases, that is a good thing. Then again, if there are variations in the sims, people must be using too small data sets. Bump it to 100k hours. That should even out the 0.1 variations.
I don't know how "hours" impacts the EP calculations that Yo's sim does. But theoretically, if I make the same assumption that you do (hours impacts the quality of EP calculations), then using the average (not median) of 10 sets of 10k hours should deliver identical results to using the value of 1 set of 100k hours.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7019SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3jlavarj
Originally Posted by Draenorm View Post
WWS just counts dodges/ parries as misses
If you expand the stats for an attack row item, it'll show the number of each for parries/dodges/miss

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7020SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Draenorm View Post
[Bow-stitched Leggings] 287
Starstalker Legguards - Items - WOWDB 335
[Leggings of the Immortal Beast] 332
[Leggings of the Immortal Night] 428

Pretty nice upgrade until you can get your hands on the rogue legs.
If I remember correctly the feral legs transmute into the rogue ones, so if you had them you'd just have to turn them in with a sunmote(which are a common drop).

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7021SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Originally Posted by Psibeast View Post
Quick question: I was looking over one of our WWS parses when I noticed I had "misses" for WF and Stormstrike. I got the 9% hit talents and around 150 hit rating on top of that, shouldn't I get 0% misses for special attacks? Or are those attacks that were dodged/parried?

Psibeast - WWS

Thanks.
I do get SS misses at times, i understand WWS may not show if you really missed or not, but i have seen "your Stormstrike misses X" before in my combat log.

I've always wondered why but never explored into it.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7022SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Gehenna View Post
I do get SS misses at times, i understand WWS may not show if you really missed or not, but i have seen "your Stormstrike misses X" before in my combat log.

I've always wondered why but never explored into it.
Banshee wail from Hyjal trash causes this in the most common of cases, it adds a significant ammount of miss to all attacks, which of course includes specials. nothing makes me cringe more than a double miss WF.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7023SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
What is the spell damage coefficient for Searing totem now?
According to a WWS of mine from Jan 21st.
Searing totem had a max normal hit of 261 and I was wearing roughly 855spell damage (i was resto that night)
I also didn't have Call of Flame.

261 - 66(normal max damage on searing totem) = 195
195/855 = 22.8%

So 22.8% of spell damage is my guess as to how much spell damage searing totem receives per tick. I should go in game and test that 50-66 for the base numbers. Roughly 25% feels way too high.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7024SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Smokestomp
Originally Posted by Rapparee View Post
According to a WWS of mine from Jan 21st.
Searing totem had a max normal hit of 261 and I was wearing roughly 855spell damage (i was resto that night)
I also didn't have Call of Flame.

261 - 66(normal max damage on searing totem) = 195
195/855 = 22.8%

So 22.8% of spell damage is my guess as to how much spell damage searing totem receives per tick. I should go in game and test that 50-66 for the base numbers. Roughly 25% feels way too high.
Given that spell dmg, you were raid buffed, and had imp scorch, COE, misery, etc.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7025SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Asirae
Ok. I've imported the basic stats to weapons and used T5 equiv. EP values.

Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

Basic formula:

EJ EP =
weapon dps * (( main-hand EJ EP 9.03 /2.6 ) * speed)
+ (strength * t5+kings modifier 2.2)
+ (agility * t5 modifier 2.0)
+ (crit rating * t5 modifier 2.0)
+ (hit rating * t5 modifier 1.4)
+ (haste rating * t5 modifier 1.5)
+ (armor penetration * t5 modifier 0.3)
+ (expertise rating * t5/t6 modifier of 3.0 (just guessing here))


My 1st question is.... how to measure (or estimate) the EP value of a proc like Dragonstrike's Chance on Hit: Increase Haste Rating by 212 for 10 seconds? I suppose I could extrapolate Proc Per Min and add that to the overall EP value.

Thoughts?
#7076SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Storming
Originally Posted by Diogo View Post
I think you are still misinterpreting the original post.

At no point it says that you should avoid hit. Just that it is less valuable then other stats.

Let's imagine you have to choose between two pieces of gear: one with 100 ap and 20 crit, and the other with 100ap and 20 hit: the piece that will yield the greatest increase in dps is the one with crit. Hit wont affect your specials, while crit will. Now, if you have the to choose between the same 100ap/20crit and a piece with 100ap/40hit, the latter is better.

It is never about absolutes, just relative weights.
i never said the OP specifically proposed to not bother with hit beyond talents.

i understand the concept of some situations showing stats to be greater overall benefit than hit. thats not what im talking about either.

im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
#7077SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vernichter
As a follow-up to Diogo's comment, there is a theoretical point in the itemization where you would naturally become hit-capped because your total item budget would be so large that hit-capping would be an optimal use of that budget. However, we aren't at the ilvl where that would happen, and it is unlikely that it ever will with current mechanics. Simply put, between AP/Str, Crit, Agi, hit, expertise, haste, and hit, there are just too many stats to dump itemization points into, and a number of them give better returns per point than +hit, assuming that your gear is relatively balanced.
#7078SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
We aren't casters. Each spell a caster uses is affected by being hitcapped. Casters also require less hit rating to become hit capped compared to a dual wield class, and spell hit and melee hit cost equal in the item budget.
#7079SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhagok
I'm not concerned with the whiz-bang dmg, not crit or haste or anything else, just plain hit/miss.
In this situation you are definitel right, if you do not account for dmg just for Hits and misses then definitely hit is a great stat ^^

If however you are just trying to do as much dmg as possible you should not gimp yourself so massively by choosing gear with lots of hit if there is better gear available.
#7080SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
And that's why you're not raid leader?

Seriously, though. You don't need to provide justification for "not being hitcapped". You don't prove a negative. What you do is provide justification for being hitcapped. So far nobody has proven that doing so will produce better damage than not being hitcapped, because with current itemization it simply does not.

Here is an explanation for why pursuing hitcap is an unproductive strategy for enhancement shamans:
If you have 9% +hit from talents, or ~50 hit rating and 6% +hit from talents, your "yellow" attacks (Windfury and Stormstrike) will never miss. Therefore, hit rating affects only about 50% of your damage. Critical strike rating affects 90% of your damage, so it delivers better returns. Strength (and attack power) affect 100% of your damage, so they deliver the best returns.
#7081SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
i never said the OP specifically proposed to not bother with hit beyond talents.

i understand the concept of some situations showing stats to be greater overall benefit than hit. thats not what im talking about either.

im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
Simply put, it is better to have a lot of haste, a lot of crit and a lot of attack power than it is to have less of those in order to accomodate more hit rating.
#7082SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dukes
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
im talking about justification for not being hitcapped.
a) You prove your point before you start stating things. Even if that's two WWS parses of you doing more damage with hit cap than without, it's SOME kind of evidence.
b)
Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP (2.2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 2 EP
Hit Rating = 1.4 EP (explanation below at VIII.4 Itemization - Hit Rating)
Haste Rating = 1.48 EP (explanation below at VIII.3 Itemization - Haste Rating)
Armor Penetration = 0.28 EP
c)
Effectively, because we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 45%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP, which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence.
d) You're level 63. I understand you want to know about the mechanics before you get to a raid situation, but wtf?
e) If you still don't get it after this many people telling you and your only response being "I don't think being un-hitcapped is really a good thing", then you need to think about this more.
#7083SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Storming
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.

but, ok. its good to be able to discuss things freely here without the usual 'lulz zomg wtfbbq!#$' nonsense of the wow forums.
#7084SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
Or he should roll a rogue and hitcap that with combatspec
#7085SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.

but, ok. its good to be able to discuss things freely here without the usual 'lulz zomg wtfbbq!#$' nonsense of the wow forums.
Getting hitcapped would gimp your other stats. Proposing getting hitcapped is the same as proposing gimping strength for the purpose of hit.
#7086SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Scheme
Originally Posted by rava View Post
It really chooses randomly. Yes there is a chance that it will purge instead of SS.

I'm not 100% positive on this, but the macro you want is conditional(if/then) and not allowed as of whatever patch was before TBC. Two buttons is some harsh work, though!
/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.
#7087SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Penguin
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.
Yes you did. In order to reach the hit cap, you are going to have to equip gear that ignores str, ap or crit in favour of more hit in the budget. Even if you gem for it, those are sill gems that could be crit. You can't just say "add more hit", because it comes at a cost of stats that will produce better dps.
#7088SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
I've read the OP, over and over and over. However, no logical justification is presented for not being hitcapped.
If we lived in a world where one could be hitcapped without sacrificing any other stat -- well then yes, it'd be worthwhile.

But consider: you have a yellow slot. You can get +8 Crit Rating gems, or +8 Hit Rating gems. The Crit Rating gem would increase your chance to crit by .36%, the hit rating gem would increase your chance to hit by .5%.

However, depending on your spec & cycle, crit applies to 80 to 90% of your damage. Above that first 9%, hit only applies to at best 50% of your damage. This makes the crit gem at worst a .288% increase to total DPS, while the hit rating gem is at best a .25% increase.

So, provided that you are not crit capped, a crit gem is always better than a hit gem. And a +8 strength gem is even better. This is true well into BT.

The itemization on gear makes a similar trade off to 1 STR = 1 CR = 1 HitR. Thus, if you hit cap, you're sacrificing potential STR and CR gear to do so. Because both those stats offer more gains than HitR, you will necessarily do worse DPS than a shaman who had more balanced gear with the same item level.

Hit rating doesn't suck; you're bound to wind up with some of it because there are no pieces of armor with, say, +100 STR and that's it. I've found a lot of upgrades that dropped some STR/AP and Crit/Agi for a large amount of HitR. But if you cap, you will suck compared to others at your level who didn't cap.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/14/08 at 4:03 PM.
#7089SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.
To elaborate on what Penguin said...

Yes, you absolutely are proposing gimping strength and crit for hit. You can't magically add hit onto a piece of gear without either (a) increasing its ilvl (and thus the location of the drop, making it inaccessible at the level of the original item), or (b) removing other stats.

Gems are an excellent example, where gemming for hit means that you're not gemming for strength, but the same logic applies when Blizzard assigns stats to gear. They can either put hit on something, or they can add to another stat on it. Therefore, you can't isolate hit into its own discussion, you can only talk about it in terms of how it weights in relation to our other key stats.

Certain other classes want to be hit capped because hit, up to the point where they are capped, affects their DPS more than any other stat. Not because there's some all-important plateau of DPS that you can only reach if you never miss. The hit cap for them is simply the point where the stat is no longer worth anything. For us, it's never (unless you're Enh/Elem instead of Enh/Resto) the case that hit is worth that much. It's that simple.
#7090SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Scheme View Post
/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.
Wow, I'm dumb. I did not even think to go that simple.
#7091SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Originally Posted by rava View Post
It really chooses randomly. Yes there is a chance that it will purge instead of SS.

I'm not 100% positive on this, but the macro you want is conditional(if/then) and not allowed as of whatever patch was before TBC. Two buttons is some harsh work, though!
As of now, there isn't a viable "conditional" for integrating purge into another hotkey. The best way to go about it is to have purge be the opening line on a macro that does something non-related to purge, such as mount.

For example, i use this:

#show Tawny Windrider
/stopcast
/cast [harm] Purge; [target=targettarget, harm] Purge
/userandom [nobutton:2, flyable, nomounted] Tawny Windrider; [nomounted] Horn of the Swift Brown Wolf, Horn of the Frostwolf Howler
/dismount
END

If someone knows another method, I'd love to know myself. I've been owrking to find a hotkey that i can make that purges when the target can be purged, and if not, use my cast sequence.

On another note, in the explanation about expertise on the front page, one sentence could perhaps be edited for clarity:

"To get around this, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 3.95, take the floor, and multiply by 3.95 again."

I just think "round down to the nearest whole integer" would be better than "take the floor" for those not not savvy with math jargon like this. Maybe I'm wrong, just a suggestion.
#7092SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
i never said the OP specifically proposed to not bother with hit beyond talents.

i understand the concept of some situations showing stats to be greater overall benefit than hit. thats not what im talking about either.

im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
The justification for not being hit capped is this; If you select your gear based on which items will result in you dealing the most damage possible, you won't be hit capped. I attack 20 times and 10 of my attacks hit for 1100 damage each. You attack 20 times and they all hit for 500 damage each. Congratulations, you're hit capped. Too bad you're doing less damage than I am in this theoretical scenario. There is no special prize for being hit capped. Explain to us why never missing is necessary or even optimal based off of our current options gear-wise.

1 point of hit rating just plain provides a smaller damage increase than 1 point of crit rating. Why? I don't know. Ask Blizzard.

Hit rating isn't really a "lesser" stat. It does actually surpass stats like agility and haste rating in many situations. I've actually had hit rating get really close(.1 EP) to the value of crit rating based off of my own use of the simulator. I've never had it actually surpass crit though.

In short, hit rating is slightly less valuable than stats like strength, attack power, crit rating and expertise because math says it is. Math is a badass, so I wouldn't insult it if I were you.

Last edited by Sebudai : 02/14/08 at 5:08 PM.
#7093SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Binkenstein
Math for the new trinket!

I'm going to work on putting together a decent framework for looking at proc based trinkets. Also: full credit for the original equation to whoever it was that made it (can't remember names right now).
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
=(15/(DEP!$G$12/(Crit*0.2)+45))*190
This is the formula I'm using for the sextant proc on my spreadsheet atm.

One of the other guys (can't remember who atm) came up with it.

The basic framework works out at Duration/chance + cooldown, multiplied by bonus.
bonus\frac{Duration}{Chance + cooldown}\)

So for this we'd get the following:

230 * (20/(hits per second*0.1) + 45)

The reason that I included the hits per second value is that it will affect the proc chance.

[e]Regarding weapon speeds, a 1/Sa + 1/Sb will give hits per second for dual weild.
For 2.6/2.6 we'd see: 230*(20/(0.769/.1+45)) -> 230*(20/52.69) -> 87.3 AP

Full version for the trinket:
230\frac{20}{(1/Sa + 1/Sb)/0.1 + 45}

Last edited by Binkenstein : 02/14/08 at 5:54 PM.
#7094SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cuddly
While we are on the subject of hit rating, are we valuing the increased windfury procs due to not missing an attack that would proc it?
#7095SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Should that formula take into account that Flurry makes a 2.6 speed weapon effectively 1.82? Plugging numbers back in, I get:

230*(20/(0.1*1.100+45)) = 102.0 AP
#7096SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
While we are on the subject of hit rating, are we valuing the increased windfury procs due to not missing an attack that would proc it?
I hope you're kidding.
#7097SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Storming View Post
im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
I think (hope) I can solve this confusion. If the point of a raid was to make sure every attack hit, you'd be correct. However, the generally accepted principle is to maximize sustained DPS. The AEP system proposed here that values hit less than some stats is designed to maximize sustained dps, not to maximize # of attacks that hit. The reason casters (generally) cap their hit is because maxing spell hit is how a caster maximizes DPS.
#7098SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
Math for the new trinket!

...

So for this we'd get the following:

230 * (20/(hits per second*0.1) + 45)

The reason that I included the hits per second value is that it will affect the proc chance.

[e]Regarding weapon speeds, a 1/Sa + 1/Sb will give hits per second for dual weild.
For 2.6/2.6 we'd see: 230*(20/(0.769/.1+45)) -> 230*(20/52.69) -> 87.3 AP
Am I misunderstanding or misreading something here, or is there a typo in there?

First you say it's *0.1)+45, and in the edit you type /.1+45. Shouldn't it be 230*(20/(0.769*.1+45)) -> 230*(20/45.0769) -> ~102,05EP, or do I lack some understanding here?

And if it is indeed just a typo, which one is correct?

Last edited by Ardonomus : 02/14/08 at 6:23 PM. Reason: Clarifying
#7099SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Solomir
Can anyone explain to me why on maxdps.com, the 'EP' value of haste is so inflated? I'm thinking it's due to the modelling of WF to not include a 3s cooldown, but I'm not totally sure.

I was also thinking that with all the haste gear coming out in 2.4 we can do some tests to see if the 1.4-1.5 haste valley really exists. Looking at all the available passive haste gear so far available, we can get 444 haste rating/28.17% haste. We can probably run tests using a set of [Sun-forged Cleaver] to model the effect of adding/removing haste.

[edit] actually, all that haste is only enough to bring 2.6 down to 1.54 with 100% flurry. Seems we need just a little bit more haste (which is probably in the rest of the sunwell gear)
#7100SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grogimer
Solomir, As stated in the original post it was already disproved.
#7101SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grogimer
Solomir, As stated in the original post it was already disproved.
#7102SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Solomir
I believe the point disproving the haste valley was made in the context of the fact that you'd only be seeing speeds in that region when procs/BLust was active, and not passively over the course of a 5+ minute fight. If you were supposedly sitting at a 1.54 speed when flurried, and then another haste item dropped, could it actually lead to a drop in dps due to dropping below 1.5 speed? Obviously, no one at the moment would actually consider pursuing a full haste set (it requires the BT haste gear and the ZA cloak), but as item levels inflate, it is possible at some time that hitting that kind of passive haste is possible for top end gear, unless they rework how windfury works.
#7103SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Pitbuller
Test haste valley with Yo's sim.

flurry off.
mongooses off.
Edit: haste pots off.
weapon speed 1.51

passive haste 0%
test run 1#
851dps.

passive haste 1%
test run 2#
809dps.



EDIT: Damn forget to take off haste pots. I tested with 1.51 too but 30passive haste was too much to ruin all results.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/15/08 at 5:27 AM.
#7104SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Ardonomus View Post
Am I misunderstanding or misreading something here, or is there a typo in there?

First you say it's *0.1)+45, and in the edit you type /.1+45. Shouldn't it be 230*(20/(0.769*.1+45)) -> 230*(20/45.0769) -> ~102,05EP, or do I lack some understanding here?

And if it is indeed just a typo, which one is correct?
No, using Excel math, multiplication & division are calculated before addition/subtraction, but to make it simple, /769*0.1)+45 is what it should read.

Revised formula (not tested) is TPC(A + B) + \frac{TP}{D}\ where T = duration, P = proc bonus, C = Proc chance, A/B = weapon speed A & B, D = cooldown
#7105SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
Test haste valley with Yo's sim.
flurry off.
mongooses off.
weapon speed 1.50

passive haste 0%
test run 1#
820dps.

passive haste 1%
test run 2#
824dps.
To be fair, it's pretty easy to find the converse as well, provided you're geared for yellow damage more than white damage. For example, using the following two scenarios, only differentiated by run1: 0% haste, run2: 5% haste...

2500 AP
30% crit
15% hit
1.6 speed MH, 1.6 speed OH
MH DPS: 97.5, OH DPS: 93.7
MH/OH expertise: 8
flurry off, crusader/crusader

0% haste: 1167 dps
5% haste: 1118 dps

The valley certainly can exist, but I don't know how often a person would hit it using real life gear and talents.

I think you get what you saw because of how yo! handles 1.5 speed (greater than versus greater-than/equal to). If you run your same test using 1.55 as the default weapon speed instead of 1.5, you'll see a rather enormous dps loss from 1% haste.
#7106SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Tier 6 Shaman Bracers were changed, 64 ap converted to 32 str, 22 agi converted to 22 hit rating.
#7107SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Okay so....

Over the past couple of days I have accumulated various pieces with armor ignore on it.

I've gotten Dory's Embrace 112 armor ignore, Vindicator's Badn of Triumph 56 armor ignore, and Bladeangel's Money Belt 77 armor ignore.

Is this enough of armor ignore to make Executioner on the MH worth it? Or do I still need to stack more?
#7108SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
♦ frozndevl
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
Okay so....

Over the past couple of days I have accumulated various pieces with armor ignore on it.

I've gotten Dory's Embrace 112 armor ignore, Vindicator's Badn of Triumph 56 armor ignore, and Bladeangel's Money Belt 77 armor ignore.

Is this enough of armor ignore to make Executioner on the MH worth it? Or do I still need to stack more?
Use Yo!'s sim, should be pretty easy to run it once with mongoose on one hand and again with executioner.

Last edited by frozndevl : 02/15/08 at 12:13 PM.
#7109SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Okay - I just freshly built my computer. I been hesitant to install random crap on it that i dont usualy use (java)
#7110SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
No, using Excel math, multiplication & division are calculated before addition/subtraction, but to make it simple, /769*0.1)+45 is what it should read.

Revised formula (not tested) is TPC(A + B) + \frac{TP}{D}\ where T = duration, P = proc bonus, C = Proc chance, A/B = weapon speed A & B, D = cooldown
Yes I'm well aware that multiplication and division are calculated before addition and subtraction, however my point was that in the original post you write .769 multiplied by 0.1, and later .769 divided by 0.1. The parenthesis (spelling?) was not what I was picking on

But if the *0.1 is correct compared to /0.1, then you get a slight difference of ~15EP in your formula due to the difference in the "chance" calculation you first posted, if I understand it correctly
#7111SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Rhagok View Post
I don´t find it just now, but someone posted a Macro here which would be really interessting in Enhancement PvP it was something along the lines of

/castrandom Stormstrike, Purge(Rank2)

Now how does this work? Does it really choose randomly between those two spells and if so is there the chance that it does Purge instead of SS when CD is up? Because that would be really bad.

Is it possible to macro something that will SS anytime it is up and otherwise spam Purge on the target?
Besides the /stopcasting macro you got previously in this thread there is always:
/castsequence reset=10 Stormstrike, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge
#7112SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Doora
Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
/castsequence reset=10 Stormstrike, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge
this will not reset every 10 seconds if spam clicked, and 8 purges are 12seconds global cd.

I would use:

/castsequence reset=shift Stormstrike, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge
this way you can reset the macro shift clicking it and it will reset to SS afte 6 Purges (6 *1.5 =9seconds).

I'm not sure if a Purge that receive a "nothing to dispell" error will still count as spell used in the castsequence, but I guess it does.
#7113SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
To be fair, it's pretty easy to find the converse as well, provided you're geared for yellow damage more than white damage. For example, using the following two scenarios, only differentiated by run1: 0% haste, run2: 5% haste...

2500 AP
30% crit
15% hit
1.6 speed MH, 1.6 speed OH
MH DPS: 97.5, OH DPS: 93.7
MH/OH expertise: 8
flurry off, crusader/crusader

0% haste: 1167 dps
5% haste: 1118 dps

The valley certainly can exist, but I don't know how often a person would hit it using real life gear and talents.


This was entirely the point of the disproving.

With no flurry or other proc style haste effects its a fairly simple math proof to show small amounts of haste that take you from >1.5 speed to <1.5 speed will lead to a small dps loss, however this is not (in all tests in game and sim runs I have done) reproducable in a 'real world' situation. Simply adding in flurry is enough that flurried speed going from above to below 1.5 is a dps increase (it is however a much smaller increase than adding the same amount of haste and not crossing that line). Once the use of haste pots, heroism/lust, drums and mongoose are added in (even more so if you use DST or dragonstrike) there is no single speed value you are at for long enough that going over the 1.5 line for that value will result in a decrease in overall dps.

The general point is, in a raid situation haste will provide a dps increase no matter what your current hasted weapon speed, but the haste item that takes you over the 1.5 point when flurried *may* have a slightly lower dps boost than it otherwise would if you don't use many proc / short term use haste effects.
#7114SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
This was entirely the point of the disproving.

With no flurry or other proc style haste effects its a fairly simple math proof to show small amounts of haste that take you from >1.5 speed to <1.5 speed will lead to a small dps loss, however this is not (in all tests in game and sim runs I have done) reproducable in a 'real world' situation.

etc...
Of course. I was simply responding to someone who seemed to believe that the dps valley wasn't reproducable in a sim. They gave an example, I gave a counter example and explained why the test they ran didn't act the way we'd probably expect it to.

No new thoughts or anything like that, just making sure that Pitbuller understands how that particular aspect of Yo's sim acts.
#7115SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tuili
Originally Posted by Scheme View Post
/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.
Well if you dislike error messages it is... Try:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast Stormstrike
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

This way during the CD there will be no "Ability not ready" but you will still get the "Nothing to dispell" message, which has more relevance imo. If you want to hide that too (maybe you use an addon that tells you what was purged, and seeing that nothing was is enough for you) Just move the last two lines to within the UIErrors confine.
#7116SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ezeckial
I've been pondering the possible dps viability of dual Deathfrost in PvE. I haven't seen anything about it's proc rate or the impacts of Dual Wielding on said proc rate.

Deathfrost Tooltip

Permanently enchant a weapon so your damaging spells and melee hits occasionally inflict an additional 150 Frost damage and reduce the target's melee, ranged, and casting speed by 15% for 4 sec.

Dual Wielding the enchant may double the proc rate on your shocks. Also due to the wording on the enchant it may double the proc rate on each of your melee hits. Most enchants say that the weapon has a chance to proc the effect. (I'm thinking misplaced servo arm mechanics, I remember getting a 2nd one was supposed to be a huge buff to dps)

Without numbers and knowing how having 2 weapons enchanted effects the proc rate on spells and melee hits it's all just conjecture. However I'd be interested in seeing how the numbers work out.

Last edited by Ezeckial : 02/15/08 at 11:19 AM.
#7117SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Jabor
Hello there, i have a question which i can't seem to find an answer to anywhere in your posts or in any of the reply'.
The other day i had the Coif of the jungle stalker drop from Hex lord, i am running around with my good old Cyclone helm and i was wondering what the rating of a meta socket should be, as in how i am to know if an item with a meta socket is better than one without even tho the item without has superior stats, i know that the meta socket will yield ~1 % dps increase, but i cant do the math, i hope you guys can help me.

Last edited by Jabor : 02/15/08 at 12:05 PM. Reason: I fail at linking items
#7118SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
We noted several pages back that Deathfrost is highly unlikely to stack with Thunderclap/CoT or even work on raid bosses.
it's all just conjecture
Yes that's pretty much all it is at this point so let's move on for now.
#7119SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ezeckial
The deathfrost slowing effect is unlikely to work on raid bosses that's for sure. Even then Imp. T-clap is better and it would probably override.

I was considering it from a pure dps standpoint. Even if it's immune to the slowing effect, mobs will not be immune to the 150 frost damage. I'm just wondering if it would be like a super fiery. That also effects shocks.

But all this really depends as I said on proc rate and how having it on 2 weapons works.

Exocutioner/Mongoose or Mongoose/Mongoose will probably be better, but seeing some numbers still interests me. I just hadn't seen it looked at from this point of view yet, and don't have access to any numbers to present. So I was wondering if anyone else did.
#7120SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Jabor View Post
Hello there, i have a question which i can't seem to find an answer to anywhere in your posts or in any of the reply'.
The other day i had the Coif of the jungle stalker drop from Hex lord, i am running around with my good old Cyclone helm and i was wondering what the rating of a meta socket should be, as in how i am to know if an item with a meta socket is better than one without even tho the item without has superior stats, i know that the meta socket will yield ~1 % dps increase, but i cant do the math, i hope you guys can help me.
You're joking, right? This exact question has been brought up multiple times, "Search this thread" = your bff.

As far as Deathfrost, I plan on putting it on two gutgores just to spit in warlocks' faces.
#7121SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shinanigans
Alright, while reading through all of this "haste rating" talk, I get utterly confused.

I just got my first piece of Haste Rating gear last night -- [Grips of Damnation].

Quote from original post:

"Haste Rating will directly increase the contribution of white swings to your DPS - 1% Haste will generate 1% more auto attack DPS."

How much Haste Rating makes 1% haste? I am sure this has been answered elsewhere. I am just not finding it.
#7122SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
WowWiki.com and even the WoWhead link of the item in question would answer that question for you.
#7123SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shinanigans
Alright, so the data for you lazy people.

Directly from WoWWiki:

"Every 15.7 Points of Haste rating you will have 1% more Attack Speed."
#7124SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jabor
@rava, sorry for missing it, theres like 300 pages, i searched around 100 of em.
#7125SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Jabor View Post
@rava, sorry for missing it, theres like 300 pages, i searched around 100 of em.
If you use the "Search this thread" tool, you search every page at once!
#7151SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Macar
Originally Posted by Lujaar View Post
Looking through the new ptr loot, Shard of Contempt from the new heroic is stupidly good. I'm getting a bit over 130 AEP for the passive alone. Even assuming an ass-terrible proc rate of 0.5 ppm after specials, that's about 170 AEP total. Better than Dragonspine, and by extension every other trinket in WoW. Hopefully we'll see some data on the proc rate soon.

Speaking of expertise and loot, I can't make up my mind on Rising Tide vs the new badge fist for an orc. 1% crit and 3 weapon DPS vs 5 expertise and .1 speed. The deal-breakers seem to be whether the expertise applies to the offhand even if it's not an axe, and whether that graph Yo did holds up in actual gameplay (staggered weapon speeds > identical weapon speeds, so 2.5/2.6 > 2.6/2.6). WTB Fist to Axe Transmute so I don't have to figure this out.
A good idea would be to use Yo!'s simulator for this...
#7152SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
Lujaar: uhm, the trinket is already been discussed here, it's very high procrate, 45sec. internal cooldown. the AEP comes out at over 200.
#7153SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
"nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration" is the key there.

But yah I've had 3 people now tell me that part is badly worded. Suggestions?

For entry raid enhancement shaman there will most likely be more gain from using double Mongoose; in order to make up for potential low crit rating if need be. In addition to potentially making up for lower crit rating, to have Mongoose/Executioner be viable you'd need an amount of ignore armor that is almost unobtainable to an enhancement shaman in the early stages of raiding. As you progress through endgame content more ignore armor gear will become available without sacrificing other stats to obtain it. At the this point Mongoose/Executioner becomes at least as viable, if not more so than double mongoose depending on how much ignore armor you have access to.

That's what I came up with D:
#7154SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amagnus
I'm still trying to understand how to compare two similar pieces of gear. I completely understand EP but wonder what other factors are important when EP between two pieces is close (and in fact what close means in that respect). Here are two pieces of gear I have:

[The Master's Treads]

This item has about 111 EP. In addition, 191 Armor (Leather) along with +19 Stamina.

[Boots of the Endless Hunt]

This item has slightly less EP than the 1st at around 93. However, it's a mail item with 535 Armor. Stamina is the same as the 1st at +19 with +23 Intellect and 6 MP5.

So, [The Master's Treads] has more EP but overall is it a superior piece of gear? I don't have mana issues too often but it seems like the additional armor has some benefit when I'm a bit squishy at this point.

In sum, should one always base gear selection factors on EP or are there times when other factors (like armor, intellect, MP5, etc.) should be considered when EP is close. Obviously if two pieces of gear have the same EP these additional factors would make one piece superior. How big of a difference in EP is necessary before one would pass up these additional features?

Thanks.
#7155SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Wraithlin
Do you die alot ?
If the answer is yes, the stamina will help you.
If the answer is no the stamina has 0 net worth.
#7156SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Neithan
I was thinking of taking the T6 boots/belt/wrists (stupid vashj refusing to drop the belt), which T6 would you suggest to get to get 4pc set bonus? Seems like Shoulders so far, am I right?
#7157SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Neithan View Post
I was thinking of taking the T6 boots/belt/wrists (stupid vashj refusing to drop the belt), which T6 would you suggest to get to get 4pc set bonus? Seems like Shoulders so far, am I right?

yeah on page 276 Myul did a very nice AEP evaluation for all the pieces, and shoulders + the 70 AP bonus they give would yield 2 less AEP I believe it was, so they're looking like the best to wear to pick up the 4pc. The post can be found here: http://elitistjerks.com/633050-post6916.html

sidenote:

[Band of Ruinous Delight] dropped for Vis Maior off the eredar twins a few hours ago.
Band of Ruinous Delight - Items - WOWDB

Very Similar stats to the Illidan ring; with crit rating instead of hit rating

Using imported "High Settings" on enhancer on PTR, I got ~178.AEP from the ring. Illidan ring being ~156, and the new JC ring being ~172
#7158SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Amagnus View Post
I'm still trying to understand how to compare two similar pieces of gear. I completely understand EP but wonder what other factors are important when EP between two pieces is close (and in fact what close means in that respect). Here are two pieces of gear I have:

[The Master's Treads]

This item has about 111 EP. In addition, 191 Armor (Leather) along with +19 Stamina.

[Boots of the Endless Hunt]

This item has slightly less EP than the 1st at around 93. However, it's a mail item with 535 Armor. Stamina is the same as the 1st at +19 with +23 Intellect and 6 MP5.

So, [The Master's Treads] has more EP but overall is it a superior piece of gear? I don't have mana issues too often but it seems like the additional armor has some benefit when I'm a bit squishy at this point.

In sum, should one always base gear selection factors on EP or are there times when other factors (like armor, intellect, MP5, etc.) should be considered when EP is close. Obviously if two pieces of gear have the same EP these additional factors would make one piece superior. How big of a difference in EP is necessary before one would pass up these additional features?

Thanks.
Between 93 EP and 111 EP you have a ~20% difference that's what i would not call "slightly less", in fact it's a pretty huge difference (20% more EP is an entire tier difference, just compare T4 and T5 helms).

If you have a very small difference (like <5%) between two item's EP then you can take into account 'comfort' stats like stamina or intel. As for mp5 since the recent changes to water shield it is now more worthless than ever. And if you pull aggro a few armor is not gonna save you (except maybe on karazhan trash), if you want increased survability dodge (and therefore agility) is a better life saver (I recently 'tanked' void reaver for the last 3% without dying thanks to my high dodge rate, a single hit would have totaly killed me even with tons of hp and full mail gear).
#7159SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aksing
Hey guys, i've been playing WoW for 2.5 years now and have spent 2.2 of those years playing a rogue in end game raiding. Combat Swords was my bread and butter. But a few months ago i decided to reroll enhancement shaman.

I was sick of not having one in the melee group. So i did some research, and ofc used this thread to get info
I am happy to say i'm loving it, and now that my gear has pretty much caught up to the rest of the guilds my own personal damage has gone up alot, and the melee dps overall in the raid is stunning.

So i guess thanks for converting me to enhancement :p And you'll be seeing aot more of me, as i was always a bit of a forum whore on my rogue, and seeing as this looks like THE place to discuss enhancement shaman stuff, i'll be an avid reader / contributor from now on.

My plans as far as Sunwell go are pretty much the same as most of you.

Belt, Bracers Boots & Shoulders of T6 then the leather stuff. Really is sick gear. And finally some enhancement weapons. Shame they're fists again. Would like to see some axes.
#7160SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amagnus
Originally Posted by LazyJoe View Post
Between 93 EP and 111 EP you have a ~20% difference that's what i would not call "slightly less", in fact it's a pretty huge difference (20% more EP is an entire tier difference, just compare T4 and T5 helms).

If you have a very small difference (like <5%) between two item's EP then you can take into account 'comfort' stats like stamina or intel. As for mp5 since the recent changes to water shield it is now more worthless than ever. And if you pull aggro a few armor is not gonna save you (except maybe on karazhan trash), if you want increased survability dodge (and therefore agility) is a better life saver (I recently 'tanked' void reaver for the last 3% without dying thanks to my high dodge rate, a single hit would have totaly killed me even with tons of hp and full mail gear).
Thanks for your response. I ran Yo's simulator with the two boots and there was in fact a negligible difference in DPS. 658 with [Boots of the Endless Hunt] versus 661 with [The Master's Treads]. My suspicion based on the OP is that since most of the EP increase of [The Master's Treads] comes from hit rating, and my hit rating is already pretty high without the boots (166) that in this circumstance the extra EP doesn't translate into additional DPS. Thus, the other stats probably make it worthwhile.

Yo's simulator was definitely helpful and re-reading the hit rating portion of the OP helped to make more sense.

Thanks
#7161SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Aksing View Post
Hey guys, i've been playing WoW for 2.5 years now and have spent 2.2 of those years playing a rogue in end game raiding. Combat Swords was my bread and butter. But a few months ago i decided to reroll enhancement shaman.

I was sick of not having one in the melee group. So i did some research, and ofc used this thread to get info
I am happy to say i'm loving it, and now that my gear has pretty much caught up to the rest of the guilds my own personal damage has gone up alot, and the melee dps overall in the raid is stunning.

So i guess thanks for converting me to enhancement :p And you'll be seeing aot more of me, as i was always a bit of a forum whore on my rogue, and seeing as this looks like THE place to discuss enhancement shaman stuff, i'll be an avid reader / contributor from now on.

My plans as far as Sunwell go are pretty much the same as most of you.

Belt, Bracers Boots & Shoulders of T6 then the leather stuff. Really is sick gear. And finally some enhancement weapons. Shame they're fists again. Would like to see some axes.
I don't understand why everyone is jumping at the 3 new/1 old thing. Going off of the list Myul made it's a 6ep gain going from Shadowmaster's to T6 and a 4ep loss going from Vashj belt to T6. The only piece that's really an "upgrade" is the bracers where you gain ~13, and even then there are a billion other things from the zone to pick up. Off the top of my head: LW BP, Mounting Vengeance, JC ring, and LW Gloves- 4 things that can drop from the first trash mob in the zone.

Do you really want to bog yourself down with 3 more items on top of that? -4(belt)+13(bracers)-14(shoulders)+6(boots)+68(69) vs -13(bracers)+58(shoulders)+4(belt)-6(boots)(43), is 26 ep worth 3 item slots when you can pick up 1 and be a mere 26ep behind? Almost every other slot is 50-100 ep better and unless you plan on picking up the entire zone uncontested. Use some common sense and see where your bigger upgrades are before you commit to 3 slots for 26 ep.
#7162SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Well, they're also from the first 3 bosses in Sunwell, which will be farmed quite a bit before the final gate opens. At 3 tokens each boss it won't be that long before they become cheap, barring extremely crappy drop luck. Oh and minor nitpick, you forgot the bit less then 70 ep from the 4 set bonus.
#7163SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3frozndevl
Originally Posted by Amagnus View Post
Thanks for your response. I ran Yo's simulator with the two boots and there was in fact a negligible difference in DPS. 658 with [Boots of the Endless Hunt] versus 661 with [The Master's Treads]. My suspicion based on the OP is that since most of the EP increase of [The Master's Treads] comes from hit rating, and my hit rating is already pretty high without the boots (166) that in this circumstance the extra EP doesn't translate into additional DPS. Thus, the other stats probably make it worthwhile.

Yo's simulator was definitely helpful and re-reading the hit rating portion of the OP helped to make more sense.

Thanks
You have to remember that EP != DPS. If I was reading things right, the difference in EP was about 18 and I bet that the DPS value in Yo!'s sim is something around .2 - .25.

18 * .25 = 4.5 which is about the difference in the DPS you observed. This looks about right to me.
#7164SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aratheon
Hey guys.

I have a question about Armor Penetration: Do you have any information about wether or not the buff from [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner] do stack?
I've heard a rumor that Armor Penetration selfbuffs do not stack but cannot find any post, that would confirm this.
#7165SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
falonub
Originally Posted by Aratheon View Post
Hey guys.

I have a question about Armor Penetration: Do you have any information about wether or not the buff from [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner] do stack?
I've heard a rumor that Armor Penetration selfbuffs do not stack but cannot find any post, that would confirm this.
Yes; I use both and both procs can occur at the same time.

edit after gehenna's post, yeah I took it at face value assuming both buffs up meaning both stack, but I'd assume so, and I hope so D:

Last edited by falonub : 02/18/08 at 1:17 AM.
#7166SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Gehenna
Originally Posted by falonub View Post
Yes; I use both and both procs can occur at the same time.
That isn't exactly an answer to his question. My nature totem stacks with hunter NR Buff, but the effects do not stack.

In addition, i heard similar rumors, but about mongoose. I've been told mongoose haste does not stack with haste from passive abilities, but I've only heard this from one person.

Last edited by Gehenna : 02/17/08 at 9:32 PM.
#7167SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I don't understand why everyone is jumping at the 3 new/1 old thing. Going off of the list Myul made it's a 6ep gain going from Shadowmaster's to T6 and a 4ep loss going from Vashj belt to T6.
The assumption is that it's going to be easier to get tokens than specific nonset drops, since each T6 and Sunwell boss will drop 3 set tokens/kill in 2.4.
#7168SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Neithan
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
The assumption is that it's going to be easier to get tokens than specific nonset drops, since each T6 and Sunwell boss will drop 3 set tokens/kill in 2.4.
Correct. It would be easier to get (as our rogues stated, that they are going for new items as well), plus its just theorycraft as we did not see any new boots/bracers/belt from SWP so far.
#7169SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Snowcold
Hello there,
im a bit new to this forum and recently fell in love with enhancement shaman ( thanks to this post partly)

Just started to gear up and im Currently using [Malchazeen] as a offhand and [Fool's Bane] as a main hand. With this nice AV weekend got enough honor to buy a new main hand/offhand and i was hesitating between the gladiator S1 [Gladiator's Pummeler] / [Gladiator's Cleaver] or on the other hand [Gladiator's Right Ripper]you'll notice a slight difference between them since the fist weapon has a higher+ max damage but a lower min damage then the others but can only be used in main hand
#7170SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3h4rr0d
Originally Posted by Aratheon View Post
Hey guys.

I have a question about Armor Penetration: Do you have any information about wether or not the buff from [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner] do stack?
I've heard a rumor that Armor Penetration selfbuffs do not stack but cannot find any post, that would confirm this.
That rumor is probably based on fact that Executioner does not stack. Its stupid that APen is does not show anywhere, but i don't see any reason why it shouldn't stack if the items can proc together.

Originally Posted by Gehenna View Post
That isn't exactly an answer to his question. My nature totem stacks with hunter NR Buff, but the effects do not stack.

In addition, i heard similar rumors, but about mongoose. I've been told mongoose haste does not stack with haste from passive abilities, but I've only heard this from one person.
Haste effect on the contrary can be tracked on paperdoll, and having ~100 haste myself, I can assure you that haste from mongoose does stack with passive haste (at least weapon speed changes on paperdoll...)
#7171SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Asirae
Originally Posted by Snowcold View Post
Hello there,
im a bit new to this forum and recently fell in love with enhancement shaman ( thanks to this post partly)

Just started to gear up and im Currently using [Malchazeen] as a offhand and [Fool's Bane] as a main hand. With this nice AV weekend got enough honor to buy a new main hand/offhand and i was hesitating between the gladiator S1 [Gladiator's Pummeler] / [Gladiator's Cleaver] or on the other hand [Gladiator's Right Ripper]you'll notice a slight difference between them since the fist weapon has a higher+ max damage but a lower min damage then the others but can only be used in main hand
Isn't that dagger just a little too fast? Try calculating the EP value of each.

off-hand: [Malchazeen]


I'm trying to compile a list of 'best' enhancement shaman weapons, but it is a work in progress: Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

I'd love to see a veteran EJ forum member here list weapons so I can compare and tweak my list.

Last edited by Asirae : 02/18/08 at 4:23 AM.
#7172SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Wraithlin
Originally Posted by Snowcold View Post
Hello there,
im a bit new to this forum and recently fell in love with enhancement shaman ( thanks to this post partly)
And yet you clearly have not even read this post or you wouldnt be using that horrible horrible off hand.
#7173SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Snowcold
Tbh i have read the post, i just happened to have respec 2 days ago and didin't have much of a choice weapon wyse...


EDIT* took the ripper seems better according to your website thanks again for the help.

Last edited by Snowcold : 02/18/08 at 4:37 AM.
#7174SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
This doesn't matter. And the OP clearly states that you should run the sim to find this out for yourself.

Maybe the OP should have a "myth buster" section where these types of things is discarded?
#7175SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Honestly, it doesn't matter if it were in the OP or not. People will still ask these stupid questions =P.
#7251SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
Eh, I'd almost prefer they kill the haste itemization budget and throw back on some stamina. I find I'm one of the squishiest melee classes in almost any fight with environmental damage and losing 120+ stamina isn't my idea of a good time.
#7252SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Devnex View Post
Eh, I'd almost prefer they kill the haste itemization budget and throw back on some stamina. I find I'm one of the squishiest melee classes in almost any fight with environmental damage and losing 120+ stamina isn't my idea of a good time.
I'm pretty sure it was a PVP change so stamina being readded isn't in the cards. With 0 stam people are less inclined to stack 4 piece PVP/PVE bonuses which are ridiculous in some cases.
#7253SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I'm pretty sure it was a PVP change so stamina being readded isn't in the cards. With 0 stam people are less inclined to stack 4 piece PVP/PVE bonuses which are ridiculous in some cases.
I'm aware. However I'm disinclined to believe that our four set is so spectacular for arena that it warrants this kind of itemization-castration.

I'd be hard pressed to use more than one of these stamina-less items in what I've seen of current sunwell fights. The dps potential is obvious but there's not a single fight so far that the loss of over 1k hp isn't a big deal.
#7254SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
BoinKlasik
Do you really want NO stam on your tier pieces? Our optimal setup is already buffered by the high stam on t6 items when we take all the OTHER items that have no stam, can we really stay alive in raids with 3 more slots missing stam entirely? Dont get me wrong I would LOVE these kind of stats on all the items, but stam is an important stat nonetheless.

edit: what devnix said

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 02/20/08 at 8:00 PM.
#7255SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik View Post
Do you really want NO stam on your tier pieces? Our optimal setup is already buffered by the high stam on t6 items when we take all the OTHER items that have no stam, can we really stay alive in raids with 3 more slots missing stam entirely? Dont get me wrong I would LOVE these kind of stats on all the items, but stam is an important stat nonetheless.
My current boots don't have any stam right now, and i'd have to say I would prefer that juicy expertise to some stam.
#7256SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Wear stamina gear for fights that require it, wear the other stuff on any fight that doesn't. I don't see how that's hard to understand. At any rate, a discussion on lack of stamina on gear would fit best in another thread where all the classes can simultaneously complain about it, rather than in here.
#7257SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
[e] Beaten to it by Malan.
#7258SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Murk
So I am having a bit of a quandry: Take crit over +hit, or play it safe on my gear choices and try to take minimal hit losses.

This is my explanation: I am sitting at 119 +hit, but only 26.16% crit (talented, unbuffed) once I get my BT rep trinket. As with many situations, there are various obvious gear upgrade choices which would be easy to make if not for the fact that most suggestions on the upgrade sites (maxdps, lootrank) are so normalized. I could take, for example, Shoulders of the Hidden Predator but would sustain a loss of 20 +hit (bringing me to 99 hit, but giving me obvious improvements over Pauldrons of Primal Fury. INSTEAD OF this, I could opt for Skyshatter Pauldrons with an estimated 3 DPS loss from the Eyeball Happy Funbags. Would the +hit loss be worth it to get the Shoulders of the Hidden Predator, or should I play it safe with my +hit and opt for the Skyshatter?
#7259SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yuma
Originally Posted by Murk View Post
So I am having a bit of a quandry...
When you run the simulations listed on the first page of this thread, what do they tell you?
#7260SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by rava View Post
The expertise cap is 103 unless Roguecraft 101 is a dirty liar.
"Expertise against Bosses
A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed."

Source: Formulas:Expertise - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

One of the two is wrong; unless theres something I'm missing. Which is quite possible as well.
#7261SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Devnex
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Wear stamina gear for fights that require it, wear the other stuff on any fight that doesn't. I don't see how that's hard to understand. At any rate, a discussion on lack of stamina on gear would fit best in another thread where all the classes can simultaneously complain about it, rather than in here.
My point was it seems like EVERY Sunwell fight is healing and raid-damage intensive making items with only juicy dps stats almost harmful. This probably isn't the place for this discussion though.

Edit: Its illogical to get raiding gear that you'd be foolish to use in 90% of the fights in the instance you get it in.

Last edited by Devnex : 02/20/08 at 8:59 PM. Reason: Clarification
#7262SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Basically, we are getting interesting choices to make on our gear now. Previously there was always one clearly best item in slot, now there are going to be multiple items, and you will have to make a judgment call "is gaining 20 EP worth losing 30 STA?" Personally, I think that's OK.
#7263SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Murk
Originally Posted by Yuma View Post
When you run the simulations listed on the first page of this thread, what do they tell you?

That actually helped make the decision much more easily, thanks! The values I had input to lootrank were a bit skewed from the calc's values.
#7264SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Joy
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Basically, we are getting interesting choices to make on our gear now. Previously there was always one clearly best item in slot, now there are going to be multiple items, and you will have to make a judgment call "is gaining 20 EP worth losing 30 STA?" Personally, I think that's OK.

I agree. No one forces you to use the gear all the time, or at all, there are already some very common no stam items; the best pieces in those slots; neck, belt (best mail belt), and boots. So surely is it no different to now you can choose the best in slot (by a fair way) or settle for second best with a chunk of stam. Or mix and match.

I currently have no items with 0 stam and just picked up one of the s3 axes which puts me around 11300 HP buffed (using a STR/spi food), so I will definitely be using these new items, additionally I will also gain stam when I replace my offhand either from a Mounting Vengeance (22) or another s3 axe (30).

I am a Tauren though ^_^


ps I am surprised to see people complaining since it was expertise added and we have all been dying a little inside every time a WF or a SS is dodged.
#7265SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
oglas
Ooooh nice, when I first saw T6 changes on those 3 items my first thought was "NAGA PLS!"... Seemed a bit drastic, although I'm quite happy because someone obviously taught Blizzard developers what a shaman brother needs.

Not gonna complain too much, it's really nice and welcome change, although they could have done it by changing ALL T6 items and replacing mp5 to lets say -armor, and just taking some stat points from stamina and converting them to DPS stats, instead of nuking stamina out and putting huge amounts of unnecessary expertise (Orcs benefit A LOT less from these, if the cap is what we think it is).

But well, cant wait until i get my hands on those :-P

Last edited by oglas : 02/23/08 at 3:45 AM.
#7266SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rounced
Originally Posted by Tuili View Post
Well if you dislike error messages it is... Try:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast Stormstrike
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

This way during the CD there will be no "Ability not ready" but you will still get the "Nothing to dispell" message, which has more relevance imo. If you want to hide that too (maybe you use an addon that tells you what was purged, and seeing that nothing was is enough for you) Just move the last two lines to within the UIErrors confine.
Just an aside - this macro doesn't work.

Anyone have any thoughts on how to get it to work?

I don't want to use a castsequence since there are always times when you don't want to spam purge but I love the idea of being able to use the binding to purge when stormstrike is on cooldown.
#7267SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Deadstar
Interesting tidbit about the new PTR build:

The single target destruction of totems returns mana for the same amount you would get from Totemic Recall.

Single target doesn't activate the GCD and you can also destroy totems in Ghost Wolf without leaving form.

If it goes live untouched and we can figure out the command for manually destroying totems, you can probably macro it to work like Totemic Recall without wasting a GCD.
#7268SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ridan
With these 3 new pieces being awesome, I guess it would be great to go and get another piece of T6 to get the 4 pieces bonus. While this piece won't be a best in slot, we would need a 70 EP difference to make the change worth it.
If I go with this, I would probably take the gloves.
#7269SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
I've been pondering which T6 item to grab now, before this nice change I though I would grab the helm and shoulders (due to the fact I'll most likely never see CVoS because of guild item-priorities, and I'd need 2xT6 since I have the Vashj belt). However, after this nice change all the T6 items are best-in-slot at their current state.

So.. to figure out the last piece, I've added 70EP to that T6 piece, and I came up with shoulders being a good slot to go for. I'm a leatherworker though, and Gloves of Immortal Dusk end up as the best-in-slot gloves for me which is why I'm hesitant to take the T6 gloves. T6+70EP = ~248EP vs the GoID at ~308EP.

However, the best-in-game shoulders at the moment are the Demontooth Shoulderpads at ~275EP, T6+70EP=266EP. So that's just a 9EP loss compared to a much higher loss in the other slots.

Pacifier's EP chart

There's the values I've used to calculate it, if that's any use for anyone else.
#7270SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3daruu
Hello!
This is the first post for me here(been a viewer for a long time though)

I decided to try out enhance after being ele and resto for a while now and its really fun!

The thing is i dont know too much about enhancement specc (or melee in general) and the first post didnt really help me answer my questions.

ATM i have 1178ap, 150 hit rating (+ talents) and 22.48% crit
This is oc course without totems or any buffs, in addition my gear isnt really enchanted and im using green gems
Most of it are from kara/heroics, but got some items from ssc/tk aswell

So, i was wondering if so much hit rating is needed? or can i sacrifice a bit for more ap/crit?

(Sorry if this has been answered before, but my quick search couldnt find it)



- Ballzofsteel
#7271SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
Originally Posted by daruu View Post
The thing is i dont know too much about enhancement specc (or melee in general) and the first post didnt really help me answer my questions.

...

So, i was wondering if so much hit rating is needed? or can i sacrifice a bit for more ap/crit?

(Sorry if this has been answered before, but my quick search couldnt find it)

- Ballzofsteel
Just read again the OP, especially section 3.1.2 (and this must have been answered like... a hundred times)
#7272SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3daruu
Yes i have seen that

So basicly i shouldnt care about hit rating at all then, and rather go for crit and strength... (this seems a bit weird to me, i am still getting a lot of misses)

And what stats should a enhance shaman have at ssc/tk level then? (ap/crit)
#7273SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
To daaru.
Loot Rank

OP shows tons of tools how you can improve your dps/gear. Just learn use those. This isnt best place to ask what color shirt you should wearing. Allthought there is lots of infomation what you just have to read.
#7274SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Ridan View Post
With these 3 new pieces being awesome, I guess it would be great to go and get another piece of T6 to get the 4 pieces bonus. While this piece won't be a best in slot, we would need a 70 EP difference to make the change worth it.
If I go with this, I would probably take the gloves.
I have a T6 shoulder token laying in the bank because I figured that much myself. But then I checked gloves and shoulder upgrades and best in-slot from Sunweel will be above the added 62-70 AP/EP from this one "old" item. The 4p bonus just isn't worth the lost EP from this slot.
#7275SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3death_Phobos
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Whoah holy smokes, expertise on set items?
Incredible good Items, i can't believe.
#7451SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Camplord
Thanks for that nice and very meaningful comment on the grammar i dont even care about, hope it made you feel good.

I did read that under 1.1.1 but there wasnt any real wf vs flame but nwm.
#7452SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Camplord View Post
Thanks for that nice and very meaningful comment on the grammar i dont even care about, hope it made you feel good.

I did read that under 1.1.1 but there wasnt any real wf vs flame but nwm.
If you read section 3.2.2, you'll notice a comment on using a fast OH and FT as a stopgap measure while you obtain a decent slow weapon for WF/WF (which is stated multiple times is the best weapon imbue combination). Skimming the first post is not the same as reading it. While Malan may not have updated the section specifically on FB and FT viability yet, a little critical thinking goes a long way. We're not here to do that for you.

And the mods take grammar, punctualization, and capitalization (among other things) seriously, so you may want to consider revising your posts.
#7453SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Despite this set back to shaman DPS (net loss of about 10-15% DPS for enhancement shaman), Windfury Weapon is still the best weapon imbue to use – former CM Tseric has stated that the devs have no plans to scale the other weapon buffs to match Windfury.
From the OP.

Flametongue is wrong. Fast weapons are wrong. Fast + flametongue is only a placeholder if for some reason you have a ridiculously high DPS fast off-hand, and your only other choice is a crappy green lvl 68 axe from the AH. If you're outdamaging people using 2 slow weapons with WF, then they either don't know how to gear and you somehow do, or for whatever reason they aren't DPSing to their potential.

And yeah. Part of the beauty of the EJ forums is that it's not the WoW forums. Please don't be lazy about your typing if you want people to respect your opinion here.
#7454SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Rhaegal View Post
I assume that trinkets, etc., can also proc off of specials like Windfury and Stormstrike, though, which is going to complicate that formula further. Add a term:

A = average number of other attacks per second

and leave V as is, the amount of time between each autoattack hit. The formula becomes:

u = D / (c + (1/(P/V + PA)))

Looking at some old WWS reports for the average frequency of WF hits, I get ~ 0.2 hits per second, and if I Stormstrike once every 12 seconds (accounting for waiting for WF to cool down, and latency), that's 2 hits per 12, or 0.17 his per second. V, as calculated for 2.6 speed weapons flurried to 1.82, is 0.91).

u = 20 / (45 + (1/( 0.1/0.91 + 0.1*0.37))) = 0.44

44% uptime seems kind of high, but then, I get 37% if I leave out WF and Stormstrike, so it's not a huge difference. The units work out, anyway. Do WF and SS not actually proc trinkets, and I'm an idiot for including them? Or did I include them incorrectly? (both reasonable possibilities)

[e] Just cleaned up the algebra a bit so it didn't look as messy. It's a little more clear this way, too, and makes me think I'm less crazy.
That's a good way of handling it, although I'd add all the "hits per second" together, then divide by the proc chance, so we're more looking at how to modify V rather than the formula as a whole.

I'll latex everything into one post shortly.
#7455SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tulaugu
I wrote two questions on the previous page but I think they got spammed away a little bit. Is it possible to get some view from you guys on those questions. I'm waiting for the awnsers to move on with changing my shaman from pvp to pve and I'd value some input on those last two points from the elitist jerks community.

Thank you,

-Tulaugu-
#7456SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
This thread has a lot of debate between the two different "main" enhancement specs. There's quite a bit of info there if you're willing to wade through it... I recommend at least skimming. Quick summary, as I remember it, though: the Enh/elem build has the potential for more theoretical DPS, but all-but-prevents twisting, and the theoretical DPS advantage relies entirely on being able to shock every cooldown. Any delay shrinks the gap, and enough delay puts Enh/resto back on top. Enh/resto is the "safe" build, and I think still probably the most popular.

RED is difficult to model because it scales so much with crit and AP. I'd be impressed if anyone could give you any solid numbers that have meaning and aren't a complicated formula taking those two variables as input. Run Yo!'s sim at your current gear level with and without the RED effect.
#7457SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vernichter
The discussion of Enh/Ele vs. Enh/Resto has been carried over to another thread here. Without the option of totem twisting in 2.4, Enh/Ele should pull ahead slightly. The testing is still somewhat inconclusive, though.

As for the meta slot, searching through this thread reveals a handful of times where the conversation has come up, and the answer depends on your gear level and stat distribution. The RED is unquestionably the best meta gem slot, and it will provide better returns at higher crit rates. In various places the value of the RED has been tallied to be between 50 and 75 AP.

On these forums it is customary not to sign your posts. As to sifting through a daunting 200 page thread, the search feature can be very helpful. I'll certainly conceed that for your specific prompts a search is not immediate for results, but it is certainly a good place to start.
#7458SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tulaugu
Ah okay. Thank you. I'll dig throght the pages and find it.
If there are 2 specs that are considered best but different, wouldn't it be an idea to add that in the first/main post? That would help a lot and make it easyer for people in the future.

RED calculations are indeed very difficult, that's why I couldn't figure it out aswell probably. At the moment I'm calculating 30 ep's for a meta socket (T5 level). 24 for the agi and 6 for the 3% crit damage. Is that realistic? It would help me a lot for when I'm comparing things like T5 helm with Grimgrin Faceguard (ZA).

-Tulaugu-

[edit] it seems there was a nice response when I was writing this post. Thanks.
#7459SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stoical
Originally Posted by Camplord View Post
i say this cause i win dps on 7 out of 10 bosses and on all trash, and still all shamans i know tell me to get a slow offhand and use WF on it, but i cant get myself to do it since none of these shamans has never outdpsed me. So i wanted you guys to explain to me=) my char name is Campsama, so if you check armory you should see my enhancement gear atm.
I'm not sure who you're comparing yourself to, but looking at the other level 70 enhancement shaman in your guild, Soilsan and Tsinka are in questing blues/greens, Zorgin is in Kara-level gear w/ hit gems, ap on bracers instead of strength, and strength enchant on weapons instead of exec/mongoose (or even crusader for the cheaper mats), and Mag is in level 60 gear (including Sulfuras). That leaves you and Ugdum. Ugdum is in full PvP gear. You're in 5/5 t6, DST, and full PvE epics, mostly BT-level, except for the badge cloak and a PvP trinket.

I don't know what Ugdum's PvE set looks like, but with that gear disparity, you had better be outdpsing all the enhancement shaman in your guild, even making a massive mistake like equipping a fast OH with FT.
#7460SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
6 EP for +3% crit damage? That's way low.

Use Yo's sim to calculate your EP values WITHOUT RED. Write down the DPS and the DPS per AP. Next, run the sim without calculating EP (cos it's faster), but add RED. Subtract your total DPS WITH RED from the DPS you wrote down without it. Divide that by your DPS per AP without. That's the EP of RED's crit effect.

I got 58 EP when I evaluated it for my own gear.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/27/08 at 5:24 PM.
#7461SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3hozzer
I have not seen anything yet that indicates that totem twisting would not be possible in 2.4. Can you point me to a source for this information?
#7462SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by hozzer View Post
I have not seen anything yet that indicates that totem twisting would not be possible in 2.4. Can you point me to a source for this information?
It is still possible to do it on the PTRs, so one would assume will still be possible after 2.4. Unless blizz change it between now and then (possible).
#7463SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tulaugu View Post
Ah okay. Thank you. I'll dig throght the pages and find it.
If there are 2 specs that are considered best but different, wouldn't it be an idea to add that in the first/main post? That would help a lot and make it easyer for people in the future.
Yes I'll get around to it eventually.
#7464SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Draenorm
Has this been posted yet? Flametongue now reduces healing effects by 50% for 4 seconds when applied. Toughness now reduces the duration of movement impairing effects on you by 10/20/30/40/50%.

Last edited by Draenorm : 02/27/08 at 11:52 PM.
#7465SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Binkenstein
It's being discussed on IRC as we speak.
The tooltips haven't been updated though.
#7466SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Febreze
erm wtf?

Heres a summary Screenshot, the forum posts i found em in are below...


hope the FT is as interesting to you all as it is to me, ill have to dig into my bank for malchazeen. However the SR change is ish



WoW Forums -> *NEW* Huge buffs on the PTR
WoW Forums -> New change on PTR
#7467SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Draenorm
Crappy change for shamanistic rage, I guess the devs felt it needed to be more balanced since we now have a much easier time escaping with instant ghostwolf and 50% duration on snares. An interesting bug with flametongue is it's actually increasing healing done to the target.
#7468SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Draenorm View Post
Has this been posted yet? Flametongue now reduces healing effects by 50% for 5ish seconds when applied. Toughness now reduces the duration of movement imparing effects on you by 10/20/30/40/50%.
We must be come that which we most despise, in order to reach our ultimate form.
#7469SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3ChaguraED
what's old is new again

I picture a bunch of shaman dusting off that old Gladiator's Hacker they were ridiculed for buying so long ago.
Least it'll serve them in PvP.
#7470SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Totem GCD reduced to 1second.

on mmo
#7471SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3oglas
New changes are weird. The totem GCD thing I approve of, was REALLY really needed in PVP, 1.5 sec GCD meant 6-7 seconds lost on dropping the essential totems, I wont even go into time loss if you had a rogue on your back while doing it. Its going to be a lot easier now.

The shamanistic rage thing I don't like at all. For one, it was great as a damage reducer in PVE, since it had long duration and some good timing on it would help a lot in overall survivability (RoS phase3, just as an example). In PVP it was even better, I loved my "shieldwall" macro (1h+shield+sham rage), not to mention that if you waited for warlock to put all his nice DOTs on you, then use sham rage, together with resilience it would almost make his DOTs do half damage.

Also, its another problem for threat sensitive fights with the new changes to SR. Before, gaining full mana during 30 seconds of SR meant increasing your TPS around 10-15% during 30 seconds, now it will become a 15 second 30% increase (those numbers are a rough estimate). Couple of lucky WF procs and lucky SR procs - HUGE threat burst.

Dunno what to think of FT yet, I'll wait until I try it out in arena...
#7472SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mulgero
FT change should be quite good for arena's maybe bg's too. Gonna love that fast dagger from ZA since FT doesn't loose that much damage compared to WF when target isn't 3+ level mob. Plus we might have some extra raid utility if bosses/trash aren't immune to it. Also question remains whether it stacks with MS or not.

Imp. gw, toughness (not sure if this still is so good at all), where to get enough points for these? Shamanistic rage change blows but shorter time to gain mana is great and I suppose now SR being immune to dispel 30sec is way too long pvpwise.
#7473SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3everwatch
Originally Posted by Mulgero View Post
FT change should be quite good for arena's maybe bg's too. Gonna love that fast dagger from ZA since FT doesn't loose that much damage compared to WF when target isn't 3+ level mob. Plus we might have some extra raid utility if bosses/trash aren't immune to it. Also question remains whether it stacks with MS or not.

Imp. gw, toughness (not sure if this still is so good at all), where to get enough points for these? Shamanistic rage change blows but shorter time to gain mana is great and I suppose now SR being immune to dispel 30sec is way too long pvpwise.
I don't know if someone already said this. FT is bugged at the moment on PTR. Don't let people get you in duels or try this in BG's until you know it's fixed. Right now it's actually increasing heals by 50% on the target. I did an enhancement pvp spec and duelled a resto shaman for about 10 min before I finally just went oor of him and forced myself to forfeit the duel. It was misreable. He'd get off massive heals and go right back to full, it was BS. I realize it's a bug, just forwarning you to check it when you hit PTR for testing.

Instant GW + 50% slow duration decresed = OP fyi. You can kite anything except for a druid.
#7474SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by everwatch View Post
I don't know if someone already said this. FT is bugged at the moment on PTR. Don't let people get you in duels or try this in BG's until you know it's fixed. Right now it's actually increasing heals by 50% on the target. I did an enhancement pvp spec and duelled a resto shaman for about 10 min before I finally just went oor of him and forced myself to forfeit the duel. It was misreable. He'd get off massive heals and go right back to full, it was BS. I realize it's a bug, just forwarning you to check it when you hit PTR for testing.

Instant GW + 50% slow duration decresed = OP fyi. You can kite anything except for a druid.
spamstring? they'll just have to put it on you twice as much; won't change much
#7475SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by everwatch View Post
Instant GW + 50% slow duration decresed = OP fyi. You can kite anything except for a druid.
I can't see kiting any class, because kiting requires range.

I can see escaping:
Priests
Rogues without cooldowns
Some locks
Paladins

And two of those were already on the list.

I am severely underwhelmed with our mobility changes. This half-assed way of going about our problems sucks. Just give us the stupid OP druid ability, or give us a stupid OP warrior ability, or a stupid OP rogue ability. Getting it halfsies is a poorly though out move that further increases our role as a chance based class.

With a warrior or a hunter, you know you're going to get that MS affect onto someone, due to ranged application or charge/intercept. With a shaman, it's still a crapshoot.
#7476SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Squidfury
Originally Posted by falonub View Post
spamstring? they'll just have to put it on you twice as much; won't change much

In GW, if you are hamstrung, and they are frost shocked, you will move much faster than they will. That said, you still arent going to get away from a warrior for long. As enhancement it would be better to just face them.

I can see forcing a rogue to sprint, but I wouldnt run too much from a rogue. Probably not worth trying to get them to blow sprint.

Anyway, its not an escape mechanism anyway ( at least reliably). What it does allow ,is us to catch every single class. Noone can escape. Its not a magical fix to the class in and of itself, but its a major buff in my opinion.

The change to flametongue definately makes us much more viable in 2v2. The most successful teams as enhancement seem to be dual DPS. Adding in a healing debuff makes that much better. Enhancement/frost mage will benefit greatly from this.
#7477SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
I am uncertain if twisting has been removed from 2.4; if it hasn't, then a 1s GCD for totems is a big deal for totem twisters.

Unfortunately, a 50% SR nerf means twisting is going to be that much harder. In fact, I'd wager that's one reason for the nerf. Why change the WFT mechanic when you can just make it prohibitively expensive to exploit? Twisting is more valuable to a raid than shocking with a resto spec; it's not better than shocking AND striking.
#7478SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3McMullet
My question is regarding Executioner and Cloth Bosses.

I know we are still preferred to have Mongoose/Mongoose as stated in the main page. However has anyone done any tests on bosses that are considered "Caster" Bosses (Solarian, Kael, Rage, etc?)

For myself I sport about 1620 AP, 29% crit and 140 Hit with about 120 Armor Ignore. This is my regular gear with Mongoose/Mongoose. This is what I use for most boss fights.

Now when I have been doing the cloth bosses I have been dropping to about 1500 AP and 28% crit, but keeping the 140 Hit and also hitting 520 unbuffed AI. In this case I am seeing some pretty impressive DPS numbers especially when executioner goes off. (Mongoose / Exec)

So my question is... Has there been any simulations run which would support Executioner as the preferred imbue given a cloth boss and a healthy dose of AI already?
#7479SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Unfortunately, a 50% SR nerf means twisting is going to be that much harder. In fact, I'd wager that's one reason for the nerf. Why change the WFT mechanic when you can just make it prohibitively expensive to exploit? Twisting is more valuable to a raid than shocking with a resto spec; it's not better than shocking AND striking.
Mana gained from a proc is buffed from 15% to 30% to compensate.
#7480SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
It's rediculous how fast you get a full mana bar now.

As for the latest PTR changes, I really think they are good. If they are truly trying to balance this game, there is no point in giving us someting "OP" as what Disquette suggest for example. I think these latest changes will make enh shammys Very viable in 2's and 3's, with most DPS classes/specs. Going to be interesting to see how it pans out really.

The SR duration "nerf" is very well needed for the latest PvP changes I Think. I would hope for a revert on that, but I guess it's only fair?

The Totem GCD was about time! I think this will generally make life as any shaman spec during raids alot better, and not as frustrating as it can be now at times. Also very needed for PvP. Good change overall

*edit* I know this thread is not about PvP, but I hope it's ok to discuss PTR changes here anyway.
#7481SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
Hi there,
I'm checking this thread nearly daily but most time as reader only. Now I have a small question, for which I hope I will not be flamed.

It's about weapon expertise and the AEP value.
There is this necklace available for heroic badges:
+48 Stamina
+22 Hitrating
+21 weapon expertise

To get AEP values i normally use Enhancer to just show me in the tooltip. But it has bugged me why this necklace is performing so miserable. Enhancer showed me an AEP value of 36.3.

My current weights for hitrating and weapon expertise are 1.65 and 3.1 (got with Yo's simulator)

So it's rather easy to calculate
22*1.65+21*3.1=101.4

Am I right or am I missing something?

The Enhancer value is just the hitrating (22*1.65=36.3)

So Enhancer is bugged and has to be fixed for correct evaluation of weapon expertise.

If your not telling me I went somewhere wrong, I'll have a look at the code.

PS: If my English is quite bad, sorry I'm not a native speaker but I'm trying to do my best
#7482SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
I am uncertain if twisting has been removed from 2.4; if it hasn't, then a 1s GCD for totems is a big deal for totem twisters.

Unfortunately, a 50% SR nerf means twisting is going to be that much harder. In fact, I'd wager that's one reason for the nerf. Why change the WFT mechanic when you can just make it prohibitively expensive to exploit? Twisting is more valuable to a raid than shocking with a resto spec; it's not better than shocking AND striking.
To deal with mana problems during fights I bound WS to my side mouse button and spam it when I have a GCD free. Ofcourse, when they fix WS that'll be out the door, but for now it seems to get me through fights where mana is an issue. I look forward to getting 800-1000 mana back from one SR proc, it might make it worth it to swap in windfuried daggers while SR is going on.
#7483SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Sounds like you already found the answer, its a problem with that mod.
#7484SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Has anybody done any math to determine what professions would be best at an endgame level?

I'm thinking enchanting (2x ring enchants) and JC (+24 ap gem, etc).

Any thoughts?
#7485SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
12str is better from a raiding PoV. Enchanting rings is always nice, and will probably benefit you more than most other profs.

The margins are so small however (imo) that I would just go for whatever you think is the most fun/profitable. Good thing that JC and enchanting is profitable when used correctly
#7486SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3frozndevl
Originally Posted by drats View Post
To deal with mana problems during fights I bound WS to my side mouse button and spam it when I have a GCD free. Ofcourse, when they fix WS that'll be out the door, but for now it seems to get me through fights where mana is an issue. I look forward to getting 800-1000 mana back from one SR proc, it might make it worth it to swap in windfuried daggers while SR is going on.
When you say "fix WS" what are you referring to? As far as I have seen it is still working as it has been.
#7487SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Kyuki View Post
As for the latest PTR changes, I really think they are good. If they are truly trying to balance this game, there is no point in giving us someting "OP" as what Disquette suggest for example.
I'll readily admit I'm not a hardcore, or even decent, pvp'er. My issue, in a theoretical sense, is that the changes seem to be akin to moving the branches 4" away from Tantalus instead of 8". But I think from here on I'll stop commenting until I can actually try it.
#7488SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Seidule View Post
Has anybody done any math to determine what professions would be best at an endgame level?

I'm thinking enchanting (2x ring enchants) and JC (+24 ap gem, etc).
Blacksmithing and Leatherworking both offer access to craftables that will help you save your DKP, but neither offer best-in-game items anymore. (Fingers crossed for a major upgrade for Dragonstrike).

However, Leatherworking allows access to drums of battle, which is the equivalent of 20 haste rating. 36.4 EP

2x Ring enchant is worth 8 STR 8 AGI that no other profession gets. 31.12 EP

JC offers a single 12 STR (vs 10 STR from a BCS) gem. 4 EP.

In summary: BS/Leatherworking will get you geared a little easier. If getting gear is not an issue, Leatherworking/Enchanting will give you a 67 EP edge.
#7489SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Seidule View Post
Has anybody done any math to determine what professions would be best at an endgame level?

I'm thinking enchanting (2x ring enchants) and JC (+24 ap gem, etc).

Any thoughts?
Come 2.4 my values show at least two LW items that are top of the line, so LW still goes strong in my opinon. I regret spending the time and money leveling BS now though.
#7490SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vernichter
Seidule, this post from earlier in the thread gives an approximate break-down of the newly introduced Sunwell gear. Note that it was made before the updates to the T6 wrists, boots, and belt. I don't see any way for enchanting to beat out leatherworking in terms of end-game return. [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] is very close to best in slot, and [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] are by far the best in slot. Add the benefit of drums and leatherworking should be a clear best profession for the Sunwell.
#7491SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
I'm on PTR right now, twisting is still possible and it's ridiculously easy now with the new GCD. We're raiding Felmyst tonight, so we'll see how the new Shamanistic Rage works out but I'm expecting a similiar, perhaps little less mana regained from it. They had to shorten the duration when they made it undispellable, it would've been ridiculously OP in PvP.
#7492SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3frozndevl
One thing I would be interested to see is if this new FT debuff will have an impact on PVE. Admittedly, I don't do much high end raiding, but if the MS effect also works on NPCs then it might be viable in that situation as well. This would reduce our overall output in dps, but wouldn't this fill our main role of "enhancing" the rest of the raid in specific fights? Throwing a 1.5 speed OH with flametongue into the defaults of Yo!'s sim reduces overall DPS by about 50.
#7493SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
There aren't many fights that require a healing debuff though, and most that do can also be interrupted. Yah you can get 5 seconds of reduced healing on Najentus, maybe some lowered healing on Anetheron. That's about it for T6 content really.
#7494SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Yakout
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
JC offers a single 12 STR (vs 10 STR from a BCS) gem. 4 EP.
This is actually not true. There is, alas, no JC-only +Str gem (JC BoP gems); we must as usual settle for AP. However, that's not the only perk we have from JC pre-2.4; we also have [Stone of Blades], which when stuck in the right yellow socket (e.g., [Insidious Bands]) can outperform a BCS, counts as a yellow stone for RED activation, and doesn't take a CS to cut.

2.4 shall also bring the [Choker of Endless Nightmares]-with-Stamina, [Hard Khorium Choker] (another fine candidate for socketing a SoB), as well as [Figurine - Shadowsong Panther] for those lower in progression or to whom the RNG has been particularly cruel in terms of trinket drops.

Last edited by Yakout : 02/28/08 at 1:04 PM.
#7495SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3bruster
Has anyone done the path PvP wise for 2.4? That is if the changes last night will stay that way.

Would it be better to use a fast OH and FT now with the healing debuff? Or would it still be smarter to stay with the slow off hand with FT, plus if you're against dps team you could keep WF on the OH.
#7496SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
There's a pvp thread dedicated to that, direct your reading there.
#7497SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Experiment
Here's a quick link to the Enhancement PvP thread, it's linked to where the weapon speed and FT was mentioned with regards to the new patch...there's a lot of other little tid-bits on using a fast weapon and FT running around in many, many other locations.

[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ?

Conversation on weapon speeds looks to have started around post 366, no for sure answer yet. Looks like it will generally be up to personal prefference.
#7498SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
drats
Originally Posted by frozndevl View Post
When you say "fix WS" what are you referring to? As far as I have seen it is still working as it has been.
Right now you can spam WS and gain more than 50mp5 from it, due to the fact that it gives mana back right when it's cast. I suspect this is not 'working as intended' and will be fixed at some point in the future.

@Seidule: When 2.4 hits I'm guessing JC/Leatherworking will be the best combination. Leatherworking for Drums and BOP gear, and JC for the SWP neck and epic BOP gems. Note: this is speculation until we've seen the full Sunwell loot table.

[e] Here's the JC neck I was talking about: Hard Khorium Choker - Items - World of Warcraft. There's also a nice haste ring, but I don't think it's better than the MH one: Hard Khorium Band - Items - World of Warcraft

Last edited by drats : 02/28/08 at 2:51 PM.
#7499SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
First: THANK YOU Hedin! <3 for the combat log help in the mod.

Second: The two different events - WF Mainhand Proc and WF Offhand Proc have separate event IDs in the combatlog. Now it will be a lot easier if people want to track stuff like that. (Note, I can't confirm what I just wrote, but so far event 33750 is always an offhand WF proc, and event 25504 is always a mainhand windfury. So, statistically that looks like a good bet so far).

I'm having a lot of fun with the new combat log stuff. Hedin Rocks.
#7500SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Yakout View Post
However, that's not the only perk we have from JC pre-2.4; we also have [Stone of Blades]
Which is 1 EP better than Inscribed Pyrestone (20.8 EP vs. 19.7 EP).

Along with the +24 AP vs the BCS, which with kings is 22 AP (benefit 2 AP), total endgame benefit of JC gems: 3 EP

With the T6 EP values, [Hard Khorium Choker] is 26 EP better than [Clutch of Demise], both are better than [Choker of Endless Nightmares]. So JC is worth about 29 EP in the very top of the endgame; still be better off with LW/Enchanting.

However, at the not-quite-the-endgame, it could be pretty valuable -- the Hard Khorium neck is 55 EP better than the best neck in Black Temple.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/28/08 at 3:13 PM.